Celebrating 30 Years Of 'Fresh Air': The Carl Reiner Interview

DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Today we kick off our special series celebrating FRESH AIR's 30th anniversary with excerpts of favorite interviews from our first two years as a national daily show. We start with actress Patty Duke, who Terry interviewed in 1988. The Oscar-winning actress grew up in the public eye as a child star and, at the age of 12, won over Broadway audiences as Helen Keller in "The Miracle Worker." Three years later, she played Keller in the screen adaptation and became the youngest actor at the time to win an Academy Award.

Then, in 1963, she got her own TV sitcom, "The Patty Duke Show," and became one of TV's most celebrated teens. After "The Patty Duke Show," Duke co-starred in the film "Valley Of The Dolls," playing a woman addicted to sex, drugs and alcohol. Here's a scene from "The Patty Duke Show." Patty's at the doctor's office to check out her tonsils. When she meets her surgeon, played by the dreamy Troy Donahue, she immediately develops a big crush.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE PATTY DUKE SHOW")

TROY DONAHUE: (As Dr. Morgan) I get the feeling you're not too thrilled about having your tonsils removed.

PATTY DUKE: (As Patty Lane, scoffing) Whatever gave you that idea?

DONAHUE: (As Dr. Morgan) And Dr. Fitterman (ph) told me about you.

DUKE: (As Patty Lane) Well, he didn't tell me about you.

(LAUGHTER)

DONAHUE: (As Dr. Morgan) Well, why don't you sit down? We'll take a look. Aside from your throat, have you had any other symptoms?

DUKE: (As Patty Lane) Hot and cold and a little dizzy.

DONAHUE: (As Dr. Morgan) Well, when did that start?

DUKE: (As Patty Lane) A couple of minutes ago.

(LAUGHTER)

DONAHUE: (As Dr. Morgan) You can sit back and relax. All right, open up, and say ah.

DUKE: (As Patty Lane) Ah.

DONAHUE: (As Dr. Morgan) Well, I'm not crazy about what I see.

DUKE: (As Patty Lane) I am.

(LAUGHTER)

DONAHUE: (As Dr. Morgan) Well, I might as well give you the bad news, Patty. You're going to have to have your tonsils out.

DUKE: (As Patty Lane) Oh, that's terrible.

DONAHUE: (As Dr. Morgan) The question is when.

DUKE: (As Patty Lane) How about tonight? I'm not doing a thing.

(LAUGHTER)

DONAHUE: (As Dr. Morgan) No. Friday is the first time I can take care of it.

DUKE: (As Patty Lane) It's a date.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: Patty Duke, welcome to FRESH AIR.

DUKE: Thank you. It is lovely to be here.

GROSS: Now, should I call you Patty Duke? (Laughter) I feel silly asking you this.

DUKE: You can call me anything you want.

GROSS: (Laughter) OK. You know, in your book, you write about all this stuff that I certainly never knew about. I'm sure most of your fans never suspected, you know, bouts with manic depression and attempted suicide, stuff like that. I want to talk with you a little bit about some of the, you know, key things (laughter)...

DUKE: Sure.

GROSS: ...That happened in your life. Your parents basically turned you over to these theater...

DUKE: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Mangers when you were age 7.

DUKE: ...I prefer to put it another way.

GROSS: Yeah?

DUKE: And this is in no way meant to be judgmental about the way you phrased the question.

GROSS: Yeah.

DUKE: But I prefer to talk about the fact that my mother was really coerced...

GROSS: To do it.

DUKE: ...To give me up. My mother also suffered from a mental illness, clinical and chronic depression. She was very insecure, had no money, limited education. And here were these people who seemed to be saying, we have the yellow brick road in our pocket. And if you really love this little girl - if you really love her, then you'll be unselfish. And you'll give her to us, and we will give her all the things you cannot.

Well, I can almost imagine myself falling for that. It appeals to guilt - motherly guilt that we're never good enough for our children. It certainly appeals to someone who feels inadequate. And so that's what she responded to. My dad, by this time, was out of the picture. They had separated, and my father was an alcoholic. So I went to live with them. And it seemed OK to my mom at the time, though very painful.

GROSS: What are some of the things that this couple did, who took over your career...

DUKE: (Laughter).

GROSS: ...To refashion you into the person...

DUKE: All right.

GROSS: ...They think - they thought you should be?

DUKE: Yeah. These folks, though they come out in a very negative light for the most part in my book, were not complete villains...

GROSS: Yeah.

DUKE: ...In my eyes. And even in retrospect, I see that they had a talent. What they did was, number one, start schooling me in manners, taught me to speak in an English accent so that it - their theory being that it would counteract the New York E's. (Imitating accent) I was a very New York kid who talked like this, (vocalizing). So there was - there were many, many highly disciplined hours of that kind of exercise.

Plus, working on how I looked - Ethel, the wife of the twosome, often would tell me that I was very plain. Part of that, I think, was her attempt, though ill-guided, to keep me humble, to maintain control. And though I got much more affirmation from John Ross, the male part of the couple, her approval somehow held - carried a lot more weight for me.

GROSS: Well, they helped you get an incredible part, the Broadway production of...

DUKE: Absolutely. They did a lot of wonderful things. I started working quite early with wonderful people in live television. Then, yes, "The Miracle Worker" was a year and a half of preparation before I was ever granted an audition.

GROSS: What kind of preparation?

DUKE: The preparation began, of course, with learning about Helen Keller but only up until Annie Sullivan arrives in her life. Again, the theory being, don't give me more information than I need and maintain control. Then, on a daily basis, I was put through exercises pretending to be blind, stumbled around the house with my eyes closed; other exercises about being deaf.

Games were played. Yeah, I was a kid, so they used the game approach. And I was not to hear anything, let's say, for an hour and a half. If sometime during that hour and a half the phone rang or Ethel said to me, there is a call for you and I responded, I had blown the game.

The difference in this kind of training is that not always were the methods kind. They were - there were often very denigrating remarks made rather than corrections. Again, it's something that I recall because it was important to me when I was raising kids to not do that to them - you know, to correct rather than, you know, call them (laughter) wicked little whatever-they-ares (ph).

GROSS: I remember the first time I saw "The Miracle Worker," the movie, when I was a child. I liked the movie a lot, and it scared me a lot.

DUKE: Really?

GROSS: Yeah. It scared me because the whole idea that somebody could go through life both...

DUKE: (Gasping) Yes.

GROSS: ...Blind and deaf terrified me. And when you're a kid, you never - you always figure, well, God, this could happen to me tomorrow. You know?

DUKE: (Laughter) Sure.

GROSS: So it was a very frightening thing. And I figured, oh, gosh, it must have been frightening for you, too, especially when you were playing it on Broadway when you were younger. Do you have to...

DUKE: Actually...

GROSS: ...Think about that so much, about what it would be like to be blind and deaf?

DUKE: Frankly - I can't believe this - but I've never really thought of it in those terms before. I had many, many, many fears - and obsessive fears - as a young person. And maybe I was incorporating them into that role. And I do know for a fact that the role was very therapeutic for me...

GROSS: Oh, how?

DUKE: ...In many ways.

The home life with the Rosses became quite distorted as I got to be 12 and 13 and 14, which were "The Miracle Worker" years. And to be able to go to a place every day and fight the authority figure - full out hit, bite, kick and be applauded for it on top of that was incredible therapy - and what we now know is acting out therapy.

Of course, I didn't know it then. But I do know that probably my illness would have shown itself much sooner if I didn't have those outlets - and of course the nurturing that I got from Anne Bancroft, not only onstage but off. She really, I think, is responsible for helping me through puberty. If I had never met Anne Bancroft, I probably still wouldn't know about birds and bees...

GROSS: (Laughter).

DUKE: ...And all that kind of stuff. She was incredibly generous to me.

GROSS: I think everyone who's seen the film remembers the scene of the breakthrough, where Anne Bancroft as Helen Keller's teacher Annie Sullivan, is working with you as Helen Keller and trying to teach the association between objects and words. And there's the scene at the water pump where she's pumping water, and she's spelling it out to you. And...

DUKE: And she's angry, if you recall.

GROSS: And she's angry. Right.

DUKE: She's angry at me because I've just done something very naughty in front of the rest of the family.

GROSS: But as the water is pouring on your hand, things pause for a second. And you suddenly - it's your only lines in the movie really.

(LAUGHTER)

ANNE BANCROFT: That's right.

GROSS: You start to sound out water. I'd like to play that excerpt of the film.

DUKE: Oh, how interesting. I've never done this before.

GROSS: Let's hear it.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE MIRACLE WORKER")

BANCROFT: (As Anne Sullivan) W-A-T-E-R, water. It has a name. W-A-T...

DUKE: (As Helen Keller) Water, water, water, water.

(SOUNDBITE OF WATER BEING HAND-PUMPED)

GROSS: That's a scene from "The Miracle Worker" in which Patty Duke as Helen Keller speaks for the first time. What kind of advice were you given about how to make those sounds, the first controlled sounds you utter?

DUKE: I don't think I've ever told this out loud in public before. I think I wrote about it in the book. Arthur Penn wanted a particular sound, obviously, the one we just heard. And as a little girl, a little voice and it just kept coming out maaa (ph). And that wasn't it. And he gave me what I think is an absolutely brilliant direction and an impossible one for a little teenage girl who has a crush on the director to take. He came to me and he said, have you ever been constipated? I thought I would die. I mean, here he is. God is talking to me about constipation. I said huh (ph)? He said, well, you think about that. And then when it comes to that time, besides all the other things that you're feeling and doing, I want you to incorporate that. And, of course, that's what you hear.

And it is a wonderful symbol for Helen's intellectual constipation for those six years. There's a line that comes a little bit after this that belongs to Anne Sullivan. It's when the parents come out of the house. And they're wondering what's going on and what is all this yelling about. And she says, she knows. I tell you, to this day, when I watch that movie or hear that or even hear those words, it has such impact on me.

GROSS: You what's really amazing? You went from "The Miracle Worker," doing it for years on stage and then on screen, to starring in this sitcom about this...

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: ...About two well-adjusted teenagers (laughter).

DUKE: Not a logical progression (laughter)?

GROSS: Really.

DUKE: Again, believe it or not, the cleverness of the Rosses. And I mean this in a most positive way.

GROSS: The people who managed you.

DUKE: Yes, the mentors. They predicted that - remember, back then, we didn't have quite as many shows for teens as we do now. And they predicted that there was going to be a transition problem. Many young actors didn't make it through the teens and into adult acting. So the plan was as long as we've got this offer for this television series, we'll put her in that. That'll get her through those, quote, "awkward" years.

Now, it made sense to them. But I must tell you, I was not there for the telephone call, but I'm aware that Arthur Penn, when he heard this was the deal that had been made, called up and just wanted to whip them soundly for this hideous mistake.

GROSS: Who came up with this idea of identical cousins? For our listeners who don't remember the show, Patty Duke played this, like, really popular American teenager and also played this American teenager's Scottish cousin who is much more prim, proper and conservative...

DUKE: My goodness. You've been paying attention.

GROSS: ... And didn't know about rock and roll (laughter).

DUKE: Didn't seem to know much about anything that had to do with the, quote, "real world."

GROSS: Now, they were identical cousins. They looked exactly the same...

DUKE: Identical cousins, do you not love that?

GROSS: ...Patty Duke played both of them.

DUKE: I have no idea why. Sidney Sheldon is the man who created the show.

GROSS: Mr. bloodline?

DUKE: Yes.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DUKE: Why cousins? I don't know. I think it had something to do with, you know, why wouldn't they have been in the household the same - you know, all these years behaving the same way? Also, I think they wanted some version of - God knows what that accent was that I did.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DUKE: But I must say, most people, when they talk to me about it - you know, folks on the street talk about the twins - they forgot the cousin part.

GROSS: Well, I think I went through my early years thinking, can there be identical cousins?

DUKE: Oh, god. (Laughter).

GROSS: Is this possible?

DUKE: I love it. Oh, we were filled with misinformation on that show. But I must say, I just saw - again, I was never allowed to watch that show, so I saw it only recently. And I was kind of happily surprised. All these years I've been kind of embarrassed by the whole thought, and I really would kind of, you know, turn my head and eyes away when people would mention it.

For its genre, it was quite a lovely little show. And they were nice people. And they weren't saying nasty, hideous things to each other all the time. And then I noticed that I was also doing some very nice acting work. It was, you know, based on very thin premise. But nonetheless, there was some very real work going on there. So I was glad I finally saw it. I don't have to go cringing and skulking through hallways anymore when I hear the music (laughter).

GROSS: I wish we had more time to talk, but we're out of time. It's really been a pleasure to have you here.

DUKE: You're a delight. And this is wonderful program. And I'm so glad it's so successful, and it'll stay on.

GROSS: Oh, (laughter) thank you.

DAVIES: Terry spoke to Patty Duke in 1988. Duke died last year. She was 69. Coming up, actor, director and writer Carl Reiner. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF FRANK WESS AND JOHNNY COLES' "WHISTLE STOP (TAKE ONE)")

DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. We're celebrating our 30th anniversary as a national daily show with interviews from our first two years on the air. In 1988, Terry spoke with Carl Reiner. Back in the '50s, he wrote for Sid Caesar's hit variety series "Your Show Of Shows." His experiences back stage inspired him to create the classic sitcom "The Dick Van Dyke Show." He also acted in movies, directed films, including "Oh, God!" "The Jerk" and "All Of Me," and wrote a bunch of books. At 95, his latest is "Too Busy To Die." When Terry spoke with Carl Reiner they began with a clip from "Your Show Of Shows" with Reiner and Caesar. Reiner speaks first.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "YOUR SHOW OF SHOWS")

CARL REINER: Your roving reporter Carl Reiner here at LaGuardia Airport, awaiting the arrival of a plane load of eminent visitors. Among them, the distinguished marriage consultant and author of that famous best-seller "Happy, Though Married." And here he comes now, Dr. Heinrich von Harsick (ph).

(APPLAUSE)

REINER: (As character) Doctor, do you consider it necessary for a married couple to have like interests?

SID CAESAR: (As Dr. Heinrich von Harsick) You mean the same - the same interests?

REINER: (As character) Yes.

CAESAR: (As Dr. Heinrich von Harsick) Oh, of course. That's very important. Now, suppose you marry an intelligent woman, see? And she likes to go to the opera. You should go to the opera with her. Maybe she likes to go to the ballet. You should go to the ballet with her. Maybe she likes to go to a lecture. You should go to the lecture with her. Maybe she likes to read a book. You should read that book. In other words, if you want to be smart, marry a stupid woman and you don't have all these problems.

(LAUGHTER)

REINER: (As character) Doctor, I understand that I great problem in marriage is...

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: You did "Your Show Of Shows." You were one of the stars of it. You were one of the writers on it. And it really turned into one of the most important shows in the history of television. Did you have any sense...

REINER: Well, it was the first of its kind. And I think that makes it important. It was the first of its kind. And luckily, it was excellent. I mean, the first of its kind sometimes isn't revered. It's just that you break some ground. But this was the first of its kind. And it was peopled by extraordinary writing and performing talent. Max Liebman had a great eye for selecting people that might be stars someday. And he found Sid Caesar and Imogene Coca. Before that, he had worked with Danny Kaye. So he really had a good eye.

GROSS: How did he find you?

REINER: He found me in a Broadway show. I was performing in a Broadway show. And the first full year of "Your Show Of Shows" was about to go on the air, and he needed somebody to support Sid Caesar. And I had been a first banana up to that time. I had been a leading comedian. And he invited me to become the second banana, when I had seen Sid in "Tars And Spars" and another venture on Broadway, "Make Mine Manhattan." And I thought this guy was an extraordinary talent and being a second banana to such a massive first banana didn't - wasn't a come-down at all for me. I realized I was working with the best.

GROSS: So being second banana to Sid Caesar - did he want to get - was he the kind of performer who wanted all the good lines for himself? Was he a hog in any way?

REINER: No, no. As a matter of - no, as a matter of fact, he was very good about the piece being right. And if you got a laugh, and if you did something funny, he would never say, ooh, let me do that. He just lets you do it. As a matter of fact, Sid was the best double talker in the whole world. He double-talked French, Spanish, German, Chinese, Japanese, what have you. And I also was pretty good at double talk. And I knew I would never get to do my double talk impressions. And so I came up with the idea of doing foreign movies. In the third week of "Your Show Of Shows" that was on the air - the third week it was on the air. And it was such a success. As a matter of fact, that's the way I became a writer without a portfolio. Up to that time, I'd been just an actor. And now I was just an actor - but who had some ideas. So I was always in the writers' room from then on. I never - we never got credit in those days for writing. Actors were actors, and writers were writers. But I did learn my craft working with those brilliant writers.

GROSS: Several of the writers on the program were Jewish - you, Mel Brooks toward the end of...

REINER: Mel Brooks is Jewish?

GROSS: (Laughter) Yeah, that's what I heard.

REINER: That's a shock.

GROSS: That's what I heard.

REINER: That's a shock.

GROSS: Woody Allen worked on the show towards its end. And who knows who else I'm not mentioning here? But I was wondering if you were allowed to do Jewish characterizations, to have Yiddish words or to use a Jewish accent in the show.

REINER: Oh, we - no, I don't think we ever used the Jewish accent. I don't know. After the war and during the war and before the war, it became - well, it was - people decided that making fun of any ethnic group was not good for people who were being slaughtered by somebody who thought they weren't worthy of living. So we - but we did use a lot of Yiddish words, especially in our Japanese movies we did. I remember some of the names. Shtarker Yamagura (ph) - Shtarker meaning strong. But it had a Japanese sound to it. Baron Kashamoto (ph). Kasha is a word - is food. But we always - anytime we used the Jewish word, we didn't allow that to lay out there alone. We always had another joke that everybody who didn't understand the word would be watching at the same time that joke was happening. We were very responsible to our audience - not to do inside jokes that only some people would get.

GROSS: I bet there were a lot of Yiddish-type sketch ideas that you came up with behind the scenes that you ended up tossing out since it wasn't appropriate for TV.

REINER: Well, as a matter of fact, the 2000-year-old man was in the office with us every day. And every time we got bored, I turned to Mel and I interviewed the 2,000-year-old man...

GROSS: Oh, really?

REINER: ...Who basically was of the Hebrew persuasion. (Laughter) So we had that.

GROSS: How did you come up with the idea of the 2000-year-old man? What was the story behind that?

REINER: Well, it was a very simple story. I came in one morning, having seen something irresponsible on television and somebody who actually claimed to have been someplace they couldn't have been. And I said, oh, that's a ridiculous thing. I don't know why they put that on the air. And in anger, I said to Mel, I understand you were actually at the scene of the crucifixion, sir.

GROSS: (Laughter).

REINER: He said, oh, boy.

GROSS: (Laughter).

REINER: And then started a 10-year interview that I did every time we got bored in the office. I'd turn to Mel and question about all the people he knew, having lived 2000 years from Jesus Christ on to the present day.

DAVIES: Carl Reiner speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 1988. After a break, we'll hear Reiner talk about creating "The Dick Van Dyke Show." And we'll listen to Terry's interview with bossa nova composer Antonio Carlos Jobim. I'm Dave Davies, and we're celebrating 30 years as a national daily program. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF STAN GETZ AND JOAO GILBERTO'S "O GRANDE AMOR")

DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. We're kicking off a weeklong celebration marking our 30th anniversary as a national program with interviews from the early days of our nationwide broadcasts. Let's get back to Terry's interview with writer, actor and director Carl Reiner. Terry spoke with Reiner in 1988. Here's a scene from "The Dick Van Dyke Show," which Reiner created. Reiner played Alan Brady, the self-centered star of the show Dick Van Dyke writes for. Dick's wife Laura, played by Mary Tyler Moore, is in Brady's office to apologize for publicly revealing that Brady is bald and wears a toupee. His toupees are on his desk. First, he talks to Laura, then talks to his toupees.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW")

REINER: (As Alan Brady) No, don't say anything. Let me look at you. Fellas...

(LAUGHTER)

REINER: (As Alan Brady) There she is. There's the little lady who put you out of business.

(LAUGHTER)

REINER: (As Alan Brady) Your husband's going to let you take the rap all by yourself, huh?

MARY TYLER MOORE: (As Laura Petrie) Oh, no. No, Alan, if Rob knew that I was here he'd kill me.

REINER: (As Alan Brady) Good, I'll call him.

MOORE: (As Laura Petrie) No, Alan.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

GROSS: Let me ask you a little bit about "The Dick Van Dyke Show." I've always assumed that the show was based on your experiences writing for and performing in "Your Show Of Shows."

REINER: Did you come that - did you come to that on your own or did you read it someplace?

GROSS: All right, all right (laughter).

REINER: Because...

GROSS: OK, so it's obvious (laughter).

REINER: No, no, but it - yeah, it was based on my life as a writer, actor on the "Show Of Shows." And it was my home life fantasized and satirized and lied about. No, but basically it was - the husband and wife on "The Dick Van Dyke Show" was my wife and myself. I mean, that's all I knew. I knew - I don't know - I knew no other marriage intimately. And we've been married 45 years, and at that time it was about 20 or 30 years.

GROSS: Does that mean that when you came home every night you said, hi, honey, I'm home?

REINER: No, because usually the kids heard me first. And there's a car coming in the driveway, a dog barking, a big dog. She knew I was home when I came home. I never said hi - (laughter) as a matter of fact, hi, honey, I'm home was probably hardly ever said. I think maybe I used it once because that was a cliche of all situation comedies. And I rarely used that. I mean, he probably said it one or two times. But most of the time we started with the script. If he said, hi, honey, I'm home, it was for a reason, not just to start a script.

GROSS: Did you ever trip over the divan on your way into the living room?

REINER: I'm a klutz. My wife - I didn't do that, but I don't know how many thousands of times I stepped onto the back of her scuffs while she was walking and I was walking behind her and had her, you know, tripping forward. I think most men are klutzy in some areas. I mean - oh, except for maybe Baryshnikov. I think Baryshnikov and Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire and Cary Grant never tripped.

Although I did see Cary Grant trip once. We shared offices near each other, and I saw him coming out of his car and tripping on the curb all by himself. But he did such a graceful trip. He turned around like Cary Grant does and he looked at what he tripped at and then sort of danced away from it. He was all by himself. But most people are klutzy. I think most men are klutzy. And I think it's an endearing quality we have that we are not totally graceful.

GROSS: "The Dick Van Dyke Show" is - has become one of the really classic sitcoms from television. Was it nevertheless a difficult show to sell to the network after you had created it?

REINER: No. As a matter of fact, the network bought it right away. They knew the quality of the show, and they knew the performances were very winning. Our ratings the first year weren't the best because we were on opposite - Perry Como, who was riding real high at the time, had a wonderful show, a variety show. And they were thinking of canceling us the second year because we were only half sponsored.

But Sheldon Leonard, our executive producer, got the other half sponsored. And I voted for a very sort of dramatic thing that was not being done at the time, to rerun it during the summer. I said, people who didn't see us can sample us now. People who watched Perry Como can sample us. And it happened. They sampled us and they stayed with us the following year and for the next five years.

GROSS: How did you cast yourself as Alan Brady, the star of the show?

REINER: How - why did I cast myself doing it originally?

GROSS: Yeah, how did you cast yourself doing it?

REINER: Oh, you mean the - well, I was looking for a major star. And I knew I couldn't get a major star to play a major star by - and giving him so many small scenes to do. So I said, I've got to find somebody who they would think was a star. And then I cast myself as - well, I was a second banana, but I was close to being a star.

And the first year I didn't turn around. I used the back of my head. I used myself on a phone or under a towel when I was being shaved or something. And I didn't show my face because I didn't want the audience to say, oh, is that the star? He's not big enough. But by the second and third year the scripts got so elaborate and they seemed to like Alan Brady that I turned him around and showed who he was. And it turned out to be me. And nobody was terribly disappointed, so we stayed with it.

GROSS: Let me ask you about your son, Rob Reiner. He first became an acting star on "All In The Family" as Meathead. And then he became a director, directing movies like "Princess Bride," "Spinal Tap," "Stand By Me." Did you ever expect him to go into show business?

REINER: Not when he was very young, although he had a tremendous ability to remember everything he'd ever seen. I mean, he's one of these kids who absorbs - he was one of those kids who absorbed everything he saw on television and movies. But he never stated it loudly that he was going to - but in his heart he wanted to be a director always. Isn't that amazing? And he only told us about it later. When he was about 19 years old, I saw him direct a - Ricky Dreyfuss and he were friends when they were in high school. And he directed a version of "No Exit" by Sartre, and it was brilliant. He was only about 18 or 19 at the time.

At that point, his road was starting to be paved. He wanted to be a director. And there was no question that he knew that. And he wasn't telling it to everybody because, you know, when you're young and say, I want to be a director, they say, get out of here. And he had it in his mind. I'm sure all the time he was on "All In The Family" he was planning it.

GROSS: Do you show each other your work?

REINER: Oh, yes. Last - you're asking something very, very current. You're the first one - FRESH AIR has got the first piece of information about this. Last night I saw a preview - not a preview, a rough cut of Rob's new movie, which he's not sure of the title yet. So far it's "Harry, This Is Sally" or "Sally, This Is Harry" - I'm not sure of the title - with Billy Crystal, Meg Ryan, Carrie Fisher and Bruno Kirby. Well, I'm going to go on record as saying it is the most beautiful, successful, glorious romantic comedy that I have ever seen. I called Rob today and I said, gee, whether I'm your father or not has nothing to do with this. I mean, that is a masterwork of movie making.

GROSS: One last thing, does writing comedy help make life any more enjoyable? Do things - can you put a comic spin on things in real life?

REINER: Oh, yes, because writing comedy and writing successfully, having your pictures made and people laugh at it - you know what happens? They give you money for that. And giving you - and you take that money. You buy a house. You buy a nice car. Get good clothes, good food. Of course, when you get older, you can't eat the really good food. You got to eat the simpler food. But it does make life very pleasant.

GROSS: Carl Reiner, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you.

REINER: Well, thank you for having - and FRESH AIR is such a wonderful title.

GROSS: Oh, I'm glad you like it.

REINER: I hope we kept the air fresh.

DAVIES: Carl Reiner speaking with Terry Gross in 1988. Coming up, we'll hear Terry's interview with bossa nova composer, Antonio Carlos Jobim. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE WEE TRIO'S "LOLA")

DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to some of our favorite interviews from the early days of our national daily broadcasts. In 1988, Terry spoke with Brazilian composer Antonio Carlos Jobim. He wrote "Desafinado," "Wave," "One Note Samba," "How Insensitive" and many other bossa novas, which endured long enough to become pop and jazz standards. Jobim died in 1994.

The 1964 Stan Getz album, "Getz/Gilberto," helped launch the bossa nova craze in the U.S. Getz was on tenor saxophone. Guitarist Joao Gilberto sang in Portuguese. Astrud Gilberto sang in English. And Jobim was at the piano. Here's the biggest hit from the album.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE GIRL FROM IPANEMA")

JOAO GILBERTO: (Singing in Portuguese).

ASTRUD GILBERTO: (Singing) Tall and tanned and young and lovely. The girl from Ipanema goes walking. And when she passes, each one she passes goes, ah.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: Antonio Carlos Jobim, welcome to FRESH AIR. Do you have any memories of writing "Girl From Ipanema"?

ANTONIO CARLOS JOBIM: Yes, that was long ago (laughter). I still have some memories. There is a beautiful, beautiful girl. And she used to pass by, you know, go to the beach, you know? Ipanema, Ipanema was a beautiful place. And the sand was so clean, you know, fine. The sea was so blue, green, you know, with the fish and the beautiful girls. And it was very, very nice, you know? And she - she's still a beautiful woman, you know? The other day, I saw her.

GROSS: This was a woman you knew and still know?

JOBIM: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

GROSS: OK (laughter). I think when you started writing bossa novas, the bossa nova was seen as a pretty revolutionary music form...

JOBIM: Yes.

GROSS: ...In Brazil. What was the revolution about? What made it so different from the music that had been played and sung before?

JOBIM: It was more like the cool jazz, you know, at that time, you know, with less - how do you say? - economic, concise, succinct, to the point, you know, to avoid too many beats, too many notes, you know? This kind of music that was called, you know, revolutionary, you know? As Stravinsky said, you know, a complete revolution, you know, you'll come exactly to the same point.

GROSS: (Laughter) So who was angry at this new music? Who didn't like it?

JOBIM: Well - how do you say? - the puritans, you know, the purists - you know, the guys that used to write about the traditional sound, you know? They thought that this was Americanized, you know, which is not true, you know. Now we can say that bossa nova is very much - you know, can be called jazz, you know, because everything that swings, you know, we call jazz - like, you know, Latin jazz, Caribbean jazz, Brazilian jazz, Cuban jazz. You know, the word jazz is very ample. Very...

GROSS: Yeah, but at the time, calling it Jazz made it seem like a bastard kind of form of Brazilian music. Was that part of the problem?

JOBIM: Yes, yes. By the way...

GROSS: Yeah.

JOBIM: ...We have in Brazil - here, I don't know - we have no bastards, you know, because this - every child - every son is legitimate. There is no bastards (laughter). As you well know, you know, I love, you know, American music, you know, and Gerry Mulligan and Stan Getz and Chet Baker and, you know, so many - so many, you know? My list - you know, Dizzy Gillespie, Billy Taylor, so - George Shearing - so many guys that you have here that - and they play bossa nova so well, you know? They can play anything, you know?

GROSS: So who are the people who really love this new music?

JOBIM: Chiefly, the kids. You know, chiefly the kids. The young people, you know?

GROSS: And how old were you when you started writing it?

JOBIM: I was - let me see - I was about 20, 25, 28. Let's say, the bossa nova explosion. We came here to the states. The Foreign Service sent us here. And we played at Carnegie Hall in November 22, 1962. And it was a big thing, you know? Bossa nova was already well established in the U.S. of A with - you know, the jazz musicians started to record the bossa nova consistently in the West Coast. And here in New York, Stan Getz recorded "Desafinado" - a song that I wrote that means off-key. You know, that was translated like slightly out of tune, which is not exactly the meaning of desafinado. Desafinado means off-key.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DESAFINADO")

J. GILBERTO: (Singing in Portugese).

GROSS: One of the leading interpreters of your songs has been Joao Gilberto. Are you still in touch with him?

JOBIM: Yes.

GROSS: Well, how did you both meet up? You were the leading composer, he the leading interpreter.

JOBIM: He came from the backlands of, you know, between the state of Bahia and Pernambuco. He comes from a vocal group, you know, one of these vocal groups, you know. And nobody wanted to do a record with Joao Gilbert because he was considered too revolutionary, you know, too modern, too. Everybody would say, this is very good, but it's not commercially, you know. And now, you know, he is - he's a famous singer, you know.

He was also accused of being desafinado, you know, of being off-key. He's very much in key. But at that time, you know, because he sang these song, this off-key, you know, called off-key. The critics also started to say that he had a very beautiful voice but he was, you know, off-key, which is not true.

DAVIES: Antonio Carlos Jobim speaking with Terry Gross in 1988. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF OSCAR PETERSON'S "TRISTE")

DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to Terry's 1988 interview with the late bossa nova composer Antonio Carlos Jobim.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

GROSS: I want to play another song that you wrote that was recorded by you, Stan Getz and Joao Gilberto in - what was this? - the mid-'60s, I guess.

JOBIM: Yes.

GROSS: And this is "Corcovado." And you open this with some of your piano playing. And Astrud Gilberto starts with the singing.

JOBIM: Gilberto, yes, yes.

GROSS: So let's give some of this a listen, and then we'll talk about it.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "CORCOVADO")

A. GILBERTO: (Singing) Quiet nights of quiet stars, quiet chords from my guitar floating on the silence that surrounds us. Quiet thoughts and quiet dreams, quiet walks by quiet streams and a window that looks out on Corcovado. Oh, how lovely.

J. GILBERTO: (Singing in Portugese).

GROSS: That's "Corcovado," from an album that really helped popularize bossa nova in America. It's the Stan Getz-Joao Gilberto record with songs mostly composed by my guest, Antonio Carlos Jobim, who is featured at the piano. And Astrud Gilberto opened with the vocal on that. Your first instrument is piano, but you also play guitar.

JOBIM: Right. Right.

GROSS: It's interesting to me. I think the kind of songs that you write are really more associated with guitar than with piano. Maybe that's because Gilberto one of the performers who popularized...

JOBIM: Yes.

GROSS: ...The form.

JOBIM: Also, when I got to the stage, they wouldn't let me play piano here. You know, they said, listen, Antonio, you've got to be the Latin lover. You should play the guitar. You know, if you play the piano you destroy the whole image, you know? So I've been playing guitar for many, many years, you know, which was let's say my second instrument. That was an instrument that I used to play by ear, you know?

GROSS: When you first started writing bossa nova, did you sit down and think to yourself, I'm writing something new here?

JOBIM: No. I was, you know, rather naive. You know, I was immersed, you know, in this thing. You know, music, music, music. I was concentrating on my work, you know? I didn't have names for it. You know, I used this word on the back cover, on the liner notes for an album talking about Joao Gilberto. I wrote, you know, Joao Gilberto's a baiano, a bossa nova. A baiano means a guy from the state of Bahia, you know? I called him bossa nova, you know? And bossa nova means, you know, a guy that has a gift, a flair and a new flair, you know? And that's it. And then this name got very popular, you know, bossa nova. And then suddenly in Brazil we had the bossa nova president, the bossa nova refrigerator. You know, this car...

GROSS: Right.

JOBIM: This car is a bossa, you know? Anything new, anything new they would call a bossa nova, you know?

GROSS: I want to thank you very much for talking with us.

JOBIM: Oh, it's been great pleasure talking with you, Terry.

DAVIES: Bossa nova composer Antonio Carlos Jobim speaking with Terry Gross in 1988. He died in 1994. On Monday, our 30th anniversary continues with more interviews from 30 years ago. Elia Kazan tells us about directing Marlon Brando "On The Waterfront," Kirk Douglas on directing "Spartacus" and hiring blacklisted screenwriter Dalton Trumbo to write the script, and Sidney Lumet talks about working with Al Pacino on "Serpico" and "Dog Day Afternoon." Hope you can join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SO DANCO SAMBA")

SUSANNAH MCCORKLE: (Singing) So danco samba. So danco samba. Vai (ph), vai, vai, vai, vai. So danco samba. So danco samba. Vai. So danco samba. So danco samba. Vai, vai, vai, vai, vai. So danco samba. So danco samba. Vai. (Singing in foreign language). So danco samba. So danco samba. Vai, vai, vai, vai, vai. So danco samba. So danco samba. Vai. (Scatting, singing in foreign language). Samba, samba, samba, samba. (Scatting).

DAVIES: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our associate producer for online media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. For Terry Gross, I'm Dave Davies.

(SOUNDBITE OF SUSANNAH MCCORKLE SONG, "SO DANCO SAMBA")

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