Film Director and Tibetan Buddhist Lama Khyentse Norbu.

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: FEBRUARY 07, 2000
Time: 12:00
Tran: 020701np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Interview With Khyentse Norbu
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:06

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR.

On today's FRESH AIR, Tibetan Buddhist lama Khyentse Norbu tells us about directing his first feature film, "The Cup." It's about Tibetan monks who are soccer fans. The film stars real monks and was shot in their monastery.

Norbu was discovered at the age of 7 to be the reincarnation of a Buddhist master and didn't see a movie until he was 18. We'll talk with him about how he reconciles his movie-making with his Buddhist philosophy.

And TV critic David Bianculli previews "Mary and Rhoda," the TV-movie reuniting Mary Tyler Moore and Valerie Harper.

That's all coming up on FRESH AIR.

First, the news.

(NEWS BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest, Khyentse Norbu, is a high Tibetan Buddhist lama, or monk, who has done something very unusual for a lama. He's written and directed his first feature film, "The Cup." It's also the first feature ever made in his country, Bhutan, which is in the Himalayas near Tibet.

"The Cup" was filmed at a real monastery in a Tibetan refugee settlement in the foothills of the Himalayas. The movie is about two young men who escape from Chinese-ruled Tibet and flee to a Tibetan monastery-in-exile. Their biggest surprise at the monastery is that most of the monks love soccer. A couple are obsessed with it and are willing to go to extremes to bring a TV to the monastery so they can watch the World Cup.

Khyentse Norbu is spiritual director of two meditation centers in Bhutan and Sikkim (ph) and two Buddhist colleges in India and Bhutan. His movie, "The Cup," has already opened in New York and Los Angeles and opens in other cities this Friday.

I asked him if many Tibetan monks are soccer fans.

KHYENTSE NORBU, "THE CUP": Yes, there are a lot of young monks who are soccer fans. I had several ideas that I could have filmed about. Many of these ideas would have cost me much more money, so I choose this particular story because it was financially most feasible. And also I was told that when a first-time director makes a film, one must do something that you are confident with, and I'm very confident with this story because I know the people there, I know the location, and I also -- somehow it's like autobiographical for me.

So I'm very confident with the story.

GROSS: I think a lot of our listeners will wonder, how do monks reconcile the competitive nature of sports, the emphasis on winning, with the Buddhist renunciation of ego.

NORBU: Well, here I need to explain a little bit more. I think people generally tend to misunderstand between two things, that is, Buddhism and Buddhist. Buddhism, of course, talk about, you know, egolessness, going beyond pride, going beyond competitiveness, and all that. But Buddhists are normal human beings.

So when Buddhists are not behaving well, like I don't behave well, it doesn't -- it's not necessarily Buddhism's fault. And that's something very important to know.

GROSS: So are there any Buddhists in the temple who are opposed to the monks being soccer fans?

NORBU: There are maybe some more conservative, more traditional older generations who might have a second thought on watching soccer or even, like, making film. But that's because, for instance, for many of these older generations, film is always something to do with the sex and violence. And I don't blame them for them to think that way, because that's the only kind of film that they get to watch.

If only they see films by people like Andre Tarkovsky (ph), for instance, and they are so spiritual, and through that you can learn a lot.

GROSS: Is there a TV or a VCR in the monastery where you live?

NORBU: Yes, the monastery that I filmed this film had a very sort of technologically not-so-good VCR. You know, look, the VCR -- all this modern technology is not a threat to Buddhism. The threat to Buddhists and Buddhism is that ego or pride are negative emotions. In fact, it's important for us to realize that these mediums can be used for our own benefit.

GROSS: For teaching other people about...

NORBU: Yes.

GROSS: ... Buddhism or about Tibet or just...

NORBU: Yes, yes.

GROSS: ... for -- as an art form.

NORBU: Mm-hm. And it's not like Buddhism doesn't have this habit of using image to express Buddhist wisdom and compassion. I mean, for 2,500 years, there's example of using image, such as paintings, sculpture, so many of them. And for me, film is just a modern-day painting. It's a modern-day sculpturing.

GROSS: Now, you run several Buddhist schools, and do you live in one of the monasteries?

NORBU: No, I have -- actually I was trained in -- by tutor, and I have never actually lived in a monastery. But when I was about mid-20s, I decided to sort of establish some school for younger generations.

GROSS: So these aren't necessarily people -- these aren't people who are necessarily going to become monks.

NORBU: Most of them are monks, but they don't necessarily have to be a monk for whole life.

GROSS: So you're a monk, but you don't live in a monastery.

NORBU: Well, again here, the concept of monk, what do you mean by monk? I think there is a Western concept of monk, and then there is -- I think the word "monk" is kind of confusing here.

GROSS: Right.

NORBU: For instance, like in Japan, there's a big phenomenon of Buddhism, and there's so-called Zen monks. Maybe that's kind of familiar in the West, Zen monks, you know, Zen Buddhism. And then monks are -- have their family. You know, they have children, they have household model (ph) from the Christian point of view, maybe you are talking about celibates. Is that what you are talking about here?

GROSS: No, I just mean someone whose life centers around spiritual contemplation and religious thought and religious training and so on.

NORBU: Yes. Well, in this case, yes, I'm trying to be someone -- I'm trying to sort of concentrate my life on the spiritual things and like that. But it doesn't mean that I may not get married and (inaudible) -- I might get married, I might have a household, I don't know.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Khyentse Norbu. He's a Tibetan lama who lives in the country of Bhutan. And he just made his first feature film. It's called "The Cup."

Have you seen movies all your life?

NORBU: No, the film -- moving picture was introduced to me quite late. I mean, I stayed -- when I was young, I stayed in a very remote place. I have -- the only television that I have seen when I was young, in my late, I think, my teenage time, was in a train station in India while I was waiting for a train. There was this monitor that brought us all this train schedule, I guess. But because the train is so late, sometimes they show these Indian film. And those were my first visual sort of moving-picture experience.

GROSS: How old were you?

NORBU: I think I was, like, 18 at that time.

GROSS: Oh. And what about the first time you were in a movie theater?

NORBU: Ah, maybe around 20 in India.

GROSS: Do you remember what the movie was?

NORBU: I think it was an Indian film. I don't remember the name.

GROSS: Right.

NORBU: But the first Western film I remember, I think -- I've been thinking about it -- it was James Bond, "Man With the Golden Gun."

GROSS: Oh, that's great! (laughs) That must have been, like, such a different world. Because it -- I mean, it's a world that doesn't really exist in the first place, but...

NORBU: I remember one experience in "The Man with the Golden Gun" when these beautiful girls with bikini -- when I see this, I felt very sort of -- myself, very embarrassed, sort of -- I was looking right and left. (laughs) I don't know, feeling embarrassed.

GROSS: Because of the sexuality.

NORBU: Because, you know, until then I have never been sort of confronted with a big picture of a -- yes.

GROSS: Of a nearly naked woman. (laughs)

NORBU: Yes.

GROSS: In a public setting, no doubt -- no less.

NORBU: Yes. But still, you know, you feel that.

GROSS: (laughs) So -- but early on, movies must have gotten to you, since you became a filmmaker. Did the James Bond movie excite you, or was it not till later that you fell in love with movies?

NORBU: No, I -- you know, those days I watched film purely for entertainment, no idea -- no -- the idea of making the film never occurred in my head. I mean, of course not. Most of the films that I watched, the Hollywood films, they had car crash and airplane and all that. I mean, we were quite poor, we had no car to ride, let alone to crash.

It was much later, when I went to London, I went to National Film Theatre, and it is there that I began to see films actually made in India by Indian, Satiyajit Ray (ph), and some other, like Ozu (ph) and Andre Tarkovsky. It was -- it is because of their film that I had this inspiration or wish to make the film.

GROSS: You worked with Bernardo Bertolucci on his film "Little Buddha." How did you get to work with him on that?

NORBU: Well, as I was saying, when I was in London, I was supposed to be studying, actually, to finish my master's degree, and also I was teaching in a Buddhist center, Buddhist philosophy. And Bernardo somehow heard that there is a Tibetan lama who is so crazy about film. And it was -- at that time he was just beginning to develop the story of "Little Buddha." And he wanted someone to work with him, and just to -- as a consultant.

And he was searching for me. And then I was, of course, very much interested in make -- in film making. And all my friends say, you know, If you want to make film, this is the best chance. So I approached him, and then I become sort of his consultant and got the chance to sit next to him when he was shooting later on. And that's how I met him.

GROSS: My guest is Tibetan Buddhist lama Khyentse Norbu. He wrote and directed the new film "The Cup." We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: My guest is Tibetan Buddhist lama Khyentse Norbu. He's written and directed his first feature film, "The Cup," about Tibetan monks who love soccer.

Now, I believe there's virtually no movie industry in Bhutan. I mean, I think yours is the first film to actually come out of the country.

NORBU: Yes.

GROSS: Are there movie theaters there?

NORBU: Yes, there is three in the country.

GROSS: And what do they show?

NORBU: Most of the time Hindi films, Indian film, with a lot of dances and songs and love affairs and all that.

GROSS: So in the position of making the first feature film to come out of your country, what did you have to do just to get equipment to make the movie?

NORBU: Oh, this was difficult. Initially, when I had this idea of making the film, I heard that this -- I don't remember the director's name, but "El Mariaci" was made...

GROSS: Oh, Roberto Rodriguez.

NORBU: Yes. "El Mariaci" was done under $10,000, so I thought, well, maybe I can actually make a film, because the story, the present story, "The Cup," is quite -- I mean, can be made, I thought, because actors, I don't have to pay the monastery, I know. And -- but then I realized that's not possible. I mean, the nearest place to rent a cheapest 16-millimeter camera happened to be Australia. And, like, buying film stocks, all of that.

So we estimated sort of $80,000, and I don't know, I tried to put mortgage of some of my belongings. And even then it was still not possible. So I sort of postponed my idea of making the film. And then again I had the opportunity to visit London, and I met Jeremy Thomas, who produced "Little Buddha," and I knew him by then. And I showed him my script, and he read the script for several days, and he called me, and he said there's someone in New York who is willing to finance my film.

GROSS: And so once your film was financed, what did you do for equipment? Did you rent it from Australia?

NORBU: Yes. And I asked -- see, I go around some of the Western countries and I teach Buddhism, and some of them have become kind of long-term student, and among them there are some photographers and movie-related people. And I asked them to (inaudible), so they did it.

GROSS: And so they helped you shoot it and helped you get the equipment?

NORBU: Yes, yes.

GROSS: Now, most of the monks in your film are the actual monks from the monastery...

NORBU: Yes.

GROSS: ... near you. And you explained one of the reasons why you cast them, or the main reason why you cast them, was this way you wouldn't have to pay them. They were very good in the movie. Were they receptive to the idea? Did they want to be in a feature film?

NORBU: It's not so much about what -- how much they want to be in the feature film or not. This is actually quite important that I explain. You know, places like London or New York, if you make -- many young people are into -- have this enthusiasm to make film, so if you are making film, everybody -- many people want to be part of it. But in that part of the world where I live, filmmaking is not a big deal. So if it happens, OK. If it doesn't happen, then it's also OK -- you know, that kind of attitude they have.

So for a filmmaker, it's kind of frustrating. But I guess as a Buddhist, maybe this is good. Maybe this kind of, you know, attitude is good.

So I explained to the head of the monastery, who is a very close friend of mine, saying that I want to do this film, and the reason why I want to do this actually is -- probably it may never happen, but I want to eventually make a film based on the life of the Buddha, and to do that, I need to have a little bit of portfolio, so to speak. And I'm doing this, and it also contains a little bit of -- about Tibetan and monastic life.

And he said, "Yes, that's a good idea, let's do it." And since he and both myself are considered as kind of a high-ranking -- I don't know, teachers, in (inaudible) -- this region, I guess we sort of used our (inaudible) a little bit, saying, OK, we decided to make a film, OK, everybody has to join. So next morning, everybody's there, without any, you know, feeling of -- bad feeling or -- also not too much enthusiasm.

GROSS: How familiar were the monks with the concept of acting?

NORBU: Oh, no, not at all. I mean, the story is written in English, because that's the only way I can get to show the producers in the West. So -- and also, we have in the Tibetan tradition, we don't have a -- this tradition of writing script, like I actually tried once, like "Kitchen, interior, night" -- I just can't put that in Tibetan. It doesn't make any sense.

So I decided to write in English. So that means my actors, they don't know the story at all. It was such a rush, I didn't have a chance to tell them the story before we began shooting. And while we shoot, because of the weather, and of course because of just the normal things -- you know, you don't shoot with sequence, but you -- I shot off sequence. So monks, they didn't know the complete story. They sort of vaguely know that this is about soccer. that's all.

GROSS: When you were shooting "The Cup," did you have to do anything to make sure that you weren't being intrusive on other people's spiritual practices?

NORBU: Yes, of course. I respected their practice, like daily meditation and all that. Of course it has to be shift up (ph), you know, like, monks have to get up -- usually they get up, like, five, but then during the shooting, they got up, like, three in the morning so that they do their daily prayers and meditations, they finish around 4:30, and then they had a short -- I mean, five they finish, and then they have breakfast, and then 6:00 we shoot.

So in this way you can say I have disturbed their sort of routine, daily routine. But other than that, no, I didn't -- I think -- this is what I think, but who knows, you know? I think and I hope I didn't disturb them.

GROSS: Did you show the monks footage of the film as it was being shot?

NORBU: Not -- ah, well, we never get to see the rushes. It has to be sent to Australia to process, and I had to wait, like, 10 days before someone there called me and say, OK or not. And sometimes the telephone line doesn't work, and it's -- there was so much paranoia. I actually now realize, if not for all this Buddhist training of meditation and all that, I would have gone crazy by now.

GROSS: (laughs) What was the reaction when the monks finally did see the film, assuming they have seen it?

NORBU: Not many of them seen it yet, because still couldn't arrange a videotape. Some of them seen it, and now they're happy, because it at last make sense. When I was shooting, for instance, the abbot always complains to me, saying, "Why you put a camera behind my ear?" You know, I was trying to get point of view. And they could never understand, because -- I mean, they know what photography is, but usually the camera is always in front of them.

GROSS: Khyentse Norbu wrote and directed the new film "The Cup." It's already opened in New York and Los Angeles and opens in more cities this Friday. He'll be back in the second half of the show.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Tibetan monk Khyentse Norbu. He's written and directed his first feature film, "The Cup." It's also the first feature produced in his country, Bhutan, which is located in the Himalayas near Tibet.

"The Cup" was shot in a real Tibetan Buddhist monastery-in-exile in the Himalayas. The monks who live there portray the monks in the movie.

There's a character in the movie who's a very eccentric fortune teller who never bathes, and he smells really bad. But even the -- you know, the people from the monastery go to him to have -- predict what the outcome of things will be.

NORBU: Yes.

GROSS: How is the person who you cast as the fortune teller?

NORBU: He is a real sort of saint. He's a real fortune -- not to say fortune teller, but he predicts things. He's respected in the community as a great saint. And -- but he is, actually, just like how he is portrayed in the film, if not more. He's always disappeared somewhere, and we almost know (ph) where he is. Usually he's in the bar (ph) or in the dice room, gambling.

GROSS: You know, a lot of people might think, well, if he's so sacred, why doesn't he bathe?

NORBU: Ah, this is what I think a lot of people have to know, by being saint does not necessarily mean that you have to be slave of a society. You know, in Buddhism we talk about elegance -- union of elegance and outrageousness. To be elegant is important, because that way you inspire people. But when you are too caught up with elegance, then you become a slave of a society. Then you are nothing, you are just a -- you lose your genuineness.

So I think this man practices, in a very sort of normal term, crazy wisdom.

GROSS: Do you ever go to him to predict the outcome of things?

NORBU: I did several times. I asked him, I think, which film stock should I use, Fuji film or Kodak?

GROSS: And what does he know about that?

NORBU: Well, he doesn't know anything. He -- I just tell him, OK, just tell me, the green box or the yellow box? Like that.

GROSS: And how does he decide?

NORBU: Then he does the prediction, and then he says, "This," pointing to the Fuji.

GROSS: And did you use the Fuji after that?

NORBU: Yes.

GROSS: Were you happy with the outcome?

NORBU: Yes.

GROSS: (laughs)

NORBU: These are mostly because, you see, I haven't been -- technical things I don't know so much. I like to make film, this has been my ambition. But I haven't been to a proper film school, I don't know the photography stuff. So there is all this -- when I actually begin to shoot this film, this -- all this technical questions, like what film stocks should I use? And then when I ask my friends, they give me all kinds of answer, which takes long time.

So my sort of method was to save the time, just ask this guy.

GROSS: That sounds great. (laughs)

My guest is Khyentse Norbu, and he is a Tibetan lama who has made not only his first feature film but it's the first feature film to be made in his country of Bhutan, which is near Tibet. The movie is called "The Cup."

At the age of 7, you were discovered to be the reincarnation of a Buddhist saint. Who were you discovered to be the reincarnation of?

NORBU: Oh, he was a great master. He was very famous for emphasizing the nonsectarian or ecumenical attitude with all the different schools and different methods of Buddhism. And he was also, like -- he worked very hard preserving lot of -- you know, in Buddhism, and especially in Tibetan Buddhism, we really emphasize so much on keeping the lineage. When the lineage gets very, very thin, then we try to really preserve it. And he's very well known for that.

GROSS: So what sense did this make to you when you were 7? I mean, how did -- how were you told? Let's get to first, how were you discovered? How -- who was it that came and decided that you were the reincarnation?

NORBU: Well, I really didn't know so much, and later on I didn't ask this question to the people. OK, anyway, I was in a school. I was 7, and I was in a Jesuit school, actually, a Christian school, just beginning to study, because that's what my parents decided.

And after few months, one day there was a man from -- sent by my family, and this man said, "You have to go, there's no time for school now." So I went, and there was my parents waiting, and with -- in our family, there's a new guest, a Tibetan, whom I have never seen before. And as soon as he saw me, he gave me a long scarf (ph), and he said, "I am your student."

And that's all. And I was -- I didn't think about it so much. But later then I realized that these are the people who has been doing the research on whereabouts of the reincarnate lama or the boy.

GROSS: It must be very strange to be 7 and have an adult say to you, "I am your student."

NORBU: Yes. But since it's kind of -- it's -- this is a phenomenon that happens in that part of the world. Again, it's not that -- not too strange, not too strange.

Then I was taken away from my parents, and I went to Sikkim in India, and I was given all the training. And now sometimes -- now, sometimes, when I think about the life and the works of this great master who is supposed to be my past incarnation, I have a doubt, because the things that I do, my behavior, my way of thinking is not that saintly all the time. But again, if Tibetan people think that I am this man, and if this benefits certain society, then I guess I have to pretend I am. And I do not have any conflict.

GROSS: How did they decide that you were the reincarnation of this 19th century saint?

NORBU: It -- you know, this happens quite a lot within the Tibetan society, and each time it's slightly different. But for me, I think it was mainly the lama who actually discovered me had dreams of the sign of -- you know, the Tibetans have, like Chinese, they -- we believe in the animal Zodiac sign for each person. And he found -- he sort of predicted the age, the name, and the sign of the birth of my father, mother, and how many children this family has, and it's the second child of this family. And also he had described the color of the house of the family, all of that.

So this is how they found.

GROSS: What do you think your parents' reaction was? Do you think that your parents were honored that you were discovered as the reincarnation of a saint, or do you think that they were heartbroken that you were going to be taken away from them and trained someplace else?

NORBU: I think mixed feelings, although my family -- my father is himself quite well known, because his father, my grandfather, is actually very, very respected master and a poet in the Tibetan society. So this thing is kind of -- it's -- my family's very strongly connected to Tibetan Buddhism. So this is kind of normal to them. But at the same time, my grandmother and my mother, of course, had a little bit of hard time. But, of course, they understand that this is the best for their child.

GROSS: My guest is Tibetan Buddhist lama Khyentse Norbu. He wrote and directed the new film "The Cup." We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Khyentse Norbu. He's a Tibetan lama who lives in the country of Bhutan, which is near Tibet, and he's made his first feature film, which is also the first feature film to ever be made in his country. It's called "The Cup."

You know, in the West, issues like personal identity and self-esteem are very important. I know I once interviewed Gashi Tupten (ph), who is a translator for the Dalai Lama. And he said that the Dalai Lama was once asked about self-esteem at a psychiatry conference he was attending. And he found the concept of self-esteem just incomprehensible (laughs) to him.

But I'm wondering how being discovered as the reincarnation of a saint affects your concept of personal identity, of who you are, of self-esteem, or if that -- all that stuff is, like, too foreign to even think about.

NORBU: Yes, I have heard about this concept of self-esteem and all that, and I have even actually read some books and talked about it with my friends. This is something that -- I think he's right in -- it's kind of difficult for me to comprehend. Many times I feel that so-called self-esteem that West talks about is actually a word -- it's a disguise to protect this insecurity that we have.

Now, you -- to answer your question, I try not to have the ego, the pride of having -- pride of being that -- being the reincarnation of this great master, OK? And in fact, as I was saying earlier, I actually sometimes doubt that I am.

GROSS: Would it be considered rude to confess those doubts to a Tibetan who believed that you were the reincarnation? Would it be, in a way, challenging them, to confess your doubt?

NORBU: Ah, that's an interesting question. I did actually confess that, and you know what my master would say? "Oh, good, this is good practice for you. This is a humility."

GROSS: Interesting.

NORBU: And a humbleness, humbleness, being humbled is so important.

GROSS: So -- but do you think other people would interpret it as humility, or as -- not sufficiently believing in the faith?

NORBU: (laughs) This is a little complicated, isn't it? OK. It's almost -- it's other people's duty to think that I am reincarnation of this great master, all right? But for me, it's my duty to -- not to have this pride of being the reincarnation of this great master. So what would my master say? He said, "To benefit others, you must visualize and you must think that you are the reincarnation of this great master. For yourself, you must think that you are someone who has all these negative things, such as pride, jealousy, anger, and so on."

GROSS: That's really interesting.

Now, what about free will? Does it influence the amount of free will you feel you're allowed to have, when you're identified as the reincarnation of a 19th century saint? Even when it comes down to, like, your free will to decide if you want to make a movie?

NORBU: What is your main question here?

GROSS: If being a reincarnation of a saint affects your free will, your ability to do what you want to do, to pursue your heart in terms of, say, your artistic desire.

NORBU: Oh, no, it doesn't at all. You know, it has no bearing, or it has no -- like some kind of, OK, now that you are reincarnation of such-and-such, you are not allowed to do such-and-such. There is no restrictions like that, because then we are talking about the philosophy. See, I'm recognized as a reincarnation of such-and-such master, and this master is a Buddhist, OK?

Now, whether I want to be a Buddhist or not, I have my own free will. And if I decided to become a Buddhist, then in Buddhism, the most important thing is to understand the view of interdependent and the practice of compassion. And practice of compassion, you can apply any kind of method. You can become a politician if you want to. You can be a -- I don't know, prostitute if you want to. You can be a filmmaker if you want to.

So there is no restrictions like that.

GROSS: And you never have to say to yourself, What would he have done if he were in my shoes? What would the 19th century saint have done in response to this dilemma I face today?

NORBU: Actually, I thought about that, and -- because, you know, sometimes my master would sort of -- joking, half jokingly, and half sarcastically, when I don't do well in my studies, they would say, You know, you are supposed to be reincarnation of such-and-such master. Why you are not doing well? OK? And later, I begin to think, Well, it was -- it is a different time, and if he came now, he has to do things according to present day. He would use phone, he would use fax, he would use Internet, probably much faster than me. Because, like, now, I don't know how to even switch on a computer still.

GROSS: Do you have to decide now how much you want to be in the world and how much you want to be kind of removed from the world, in a more secluded, meditative environment?

NORBU: Yes. That's what exactly -- exactly what I'm thinking of doing. Like, after June or July this year, I'm hoping to do about a year or maybe two years' retreat. I really need it, otherwise I am -- I may be caught with this trap of ego and publicity and all of that, and I have to watch that out. I mean, in Buddhism, we talk about strength, right? -- to be strong, spiritually, whatever, mentally. And Buddha said, A person can become weak when a person falls into eight different traps.

I will not go telling all the eight traps, but he said, OK, if you want to be praised, that is one trap that you become weak. If you don't want to be criticized, that is a second trap makes human being weak.

So there is eight of these. And when you go to film festivals and when you are exposed to this kind of world, I almost find it just opposite, like, OK, I have made a film, and of course people -- your film should be praised, otherwise there is no market. Your film shouldn't be criticized by critics, otherwise there is no market.

So it's just opposite, you know? But having said that, Buddha said, If you are walking over a trap, and if you know that this is a trap, then you walk over this, OK, you are walking over the trap, and knowing that this is a trap. Then, he said, this is a joy, this is humorous.

So what I'm trying to tell you is, I need to learn that these are trap, and I should have the courage to walk over it. And this is what I need to learn. And to do that, I need to do practice.

GROSS: Have you been to Hollywood?

NORBU: Los Angeles, yes, and -- yes, I guess that's Hollywood, isn't it? Somewhere there.

GROSS: I mean, it's -- (laughs) Not that I work there, but, you know, from afar, it certainly looks like it would be an ego festival there.

NORBU: Yes.

GROSS: (laughs) I mean, what's it like to watch, like, so many people with so much at stake, financially and in terms of their own ego?

NORBU: Yes, I have -- yes, I came back from Los Angeles, and one night I actually have to confess that I went to a -- what do you call it, strip joint? Strip club?

GROSS: Yes, yes.

NORBU: Yes. And I saw a lot of girls with breasts, that's -- what do you call it -- put silicon or something. And I thought, that's so sad, because your ego is so insecure, and you -- if one make like that -- that -- You know, Los Angeles, I found that, and you're right, it's a festival of ego. And I don't know whether we should call it a festival, because ego is usually -- the nature of the ego is the insecurity. That's why you have to put in silicon, that's why you have to -- I don't know, do things that you don't have to do.

GROSS: Can I ask why you went to the strip club?

NORBU: Oh, just, you know, as a normal human being. I wanted to go, to see. No profound reason here.

GROSS: (laughs) What did you think of the atmosphere?

NORBU: Good, actually. It was like a monastery, because, you know, you are not allowed to drink alcohol. You are not supposed to smoke. And you are not supposed to touch the girls, that's what they said. And you just watch. So that's very challenging, I thought.

GROSS: (laughs)

Well, I thank you so much for talking with us. I've really enjoyed speaking with you. Thank you very much.

NORBU: You're welcome.

GROSS: And good luck with the movie.

NORBU: Thank you.

GROSS: Khyentse Norbu wrote and directed the new film "The Cup." It's already opened in New York and Los Angeles and opens in more cities this Friday.

Coming up, David Bianculli reviews the new made-for-TV movie, "Mary and Rhoda."

This is FRESH AIR.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: Khyentse Norbu
High: Film director and Tibetan Buddist lama Khyentse Norbu is making his directorial debut with the new film "The Cup" about a group of Monk's who are soccer fans. The film was shot in an actual Monastery, and the cast is the monks who live there. "The Cup" is also the first feature-length movie shot in Bhutan. The film was shown at last year's The Cannes Film Festival.
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; Religion; "The Cup"; Khyentse Norbu

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 2000 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 2000 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Interview With Khyentse Norbu

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: FEBRUARY 07, 2000
Time: 12:00
Tran: 020702NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: David Bianculli Reviews 'Mary & Rhoda'
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:52

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: Tonight on ABC, Mary Tyler Moore returns to her classic character of Mary Richards on "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" and brings with her Valerie Harper, who played her best friend, Rhoda Morgenstern. This telemovie reunion is called "Mary and Rhoda." TV critic David Bianculli has a review.

DAVID BIANCULLI, TV CRITIC: The "Mary and Rhoda" telemovie opens very cleverly. We see Mary Richards, older but no less bubbly, walking down the city sidewalk as her old, familiar theme song plays underneath. But this is a busier city. It's New York, not Minneapolis, and things have changed a lot since the '70s. So as Mary walks the crowded streets, a stranger bumps into her and rams her off course. Just the sort of thing that happens all the time to Ally McBeal. And Mary's theme song changes to a modern version, played and growled by Joan Jett.

(AUDIO CLIP, "MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW" THEME SONG, JOAN JETT, "MARY AND RHODA")

BIANCULLI: The message is that the times, they have-a changed. And this telemovie, which is what remains of an abandoned series idea starring Moore and Harper, tries to catch us up with the lives of these two familiar characters.

The musical joke is a great start, but "Mary and Rhoda" loses steam quickly. The problem is, the movie tries a little too hard. It's done as a comedy-drama telemovie without a laugh track, which is a tricky mix but not impossible. TV viewers are used to this form now, thanks to the likes of "Twin Peaks," "Northern Exposure," and even "Ally McBeal."

And actually, the granddaddy of TV comedy-dramas, the show that pioneered the form, was "Lou Grant," in which Ed Asner took his character form "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" and made a successful transition from sitcom to what was then called dramedy.

Lou and the rest of the gang are nowhere to be found in this "Mary and Rhoda" telemovie. Instead, we get 20 clunky minutes of exposition, learning that Mary was happily married, and, like Rhoda, has a grown daughter. We also learn that Mary's husband recently died and left her in enough debt to have to reenter the workplace at age 60.

When she does, she's right where she started, or right where "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" started 30 years ago, with Mary Richards undergoing a very uncomfortable job interview with a TV executive. Last time it was Asner as Lou Grant, telling Mary, "You've got spunk," then adding, "I hate spunk."

This time it's Elon Gold as Jonah, a young TV executive with an ultramodern office and an ultra-rude attitude.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "MARY AND RHODA")

ELON GOLD, ACTOR: Well, let's see. Got an impressive resume.

MARY TYLER MOORE, ACTRESS: I'm 60.

GOLD: And I'm 33. Now that we've got that out of the way...

MOORE: Well, it's just that that's the next question after I'm told I have an impressive resume, so...

GOLD: You know, Mary, I founded this station because I didn't think people were seeing themselves reflected on TV, so I started with reality programming, "Final Regrets" -- have you seen that?

MOORE: Which one is that?

GOLD: Well, that's where we had people who were about to die talk about what they didn't do, or fight with family members, you know, that sort of thing. You seen it?

MOORE: No. Well, I don't watch enough TV.

GOLD: So tell me about you.

MOORE: I started as an associate producer of the news at station WJM in Minneapolis...

GOLD: Tell Barbara (inaudible) pick up Porsche. Tell John to move lunch to Wednesday.

Skip to the middle.

MOORE: Well, then I lived in New York and got my master's in journalism...

GOLD: Mike, Mike, I pressed "Capuccino" and it didn't light up.

You want anything?

MOORE: No...

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BIANCULLI: That scene is one intentional nod to the old series. Others include the giant gold M still hanging on Mary's wall, and the fact that she still throws lousy dinner parties.

Yet even though the references are cute, the show's concept is sound, and even the casting choices and performances are very good, "Mary and Rhoda" ends up being derailed by its script. When Asner went from "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" to "Lou Grant," he took with him some of TV's very best writers and producers. Mary Tyler Moore, one of the executive producers of this telemovie, didn't insist on the same level of comedy experience, and it shows.

The telemovie, by writer Katie Ford and director Barnet Kellman, strains too hard for both sentimentality and laughs, and ends up being a disappointment.

Let's not be too hard, though, on Mary Tyler Moore. With Laura Petrie from "The Dick Van Dyke Show" and Mary Richards in her own series, she's already delivered two of the most charming, funny, memorable, and significant characters in the history of American television. That's an act that even she can be forgiven for finding difficult to follow, much less to repeat.

GROSS: David Bianculli is TV critic for "The New York Daily News."

FRESH AIR's interviews and reviews are produced by Naomi Person, Phyllis Myers, and Amy Salit, with Monique Nazareth, Ann Marie Baldonado, and Patty Leswing. Research assistance from Brendan Noonam. Roberta Shorrock directs the show.

I'm Terry Gross.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest:
High: TV critic David Bianculli reviews the made for TV movie "Mary & Rhoda" starring Mary Tyler Moore and Valerie Harper.
Spec: Television and Radio; Entertainment; Mary Tyler Moore; Valerie Harper

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 2000 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 2000 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: David Bianculli Reviews 'Mary & Rhoda'
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.