Neil Diamond, Now and 'Forever'

DATE May 26, 2006 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Filler: By policy of WHYY, this information is restricted and has
been omitted from this transcript
DAVE DAVIES, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, senior writer for the Philadelphia Daily
News sitting in for Terry Gross.

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Interview: Angie Dickinson discusses her career as an actress
DAVE DAVIES, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, filling in for Terry Gross.

The 1970s series "Police Woman" has emerged on DVD, featuring veteran actress
Angie Dickinson playing the sexy vice cop Pepper Anderson. Though she was in
her 40s when the series opened, Dickinson spent much of her time impersonating
hookers, going undercover in women's prisons and acting as bait for sexual
predators. Dickinson won a Golden Globe award for the role. Here she is
playing a prostitute having a drink with a hustler, Carl, played by Joseph
Campanella. He's trying to get her in on his traveling casino ring.

(Soundbite from "Police Woman")

Mr. JOSEPH CAMPANELLA: (As Carl) Aw, Relax.

Ms. ANGIE DICKINSON: (As Pepper Anderson) You want to get me stoned out of
my head before I pick up your marks?

Mr. CAMPANELLA: (As Carl) We got time. Thought we might have a little fun
before, you know?

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Pepper) Forget it.

Mr. CAMPANELLA: (As Carl) Come on.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Pepper) We don't need it.

Mr. CAMPANELLA: (As Carl) I know what I need.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Pepper) Not me, not now.

Mr. CAMPANELLA: (As Carl) Yeah, you, now.

(Soundclip of tussling)

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Pepper) Come on, Carl, are we in business or in high
school? OK, OK, OK, oh...

(End of soundbite)

DAVIES: Angie Dickinson is a former beauty queen who began acting in the
mid-50s. Her breakout role came in the film "Rio Bravo," where she played
opposite John Wayne. She also starred with Lee Marvin in "The Killers" and
"Point Black," Burt Reynolds in "Sam Whiskey" and Roger Moore in "The Sins of
Rachel Cade."

Terry spoke to Angie Dickinson in 2001 when the remake of the film "Ocean's
Eleven" was released. Dickinson starred in the original "Ocean's Eleven,"
made in 1960, as the estranged wife of Frank Sinatra, who leads a band of men
planning to rob casinos. In this scene, Sinatra's trying to reconnect with
Dickinson after years of separation.

(Soundbite of "Ocean's Eleven")

Mr. FRANK SINATRA: (As Danny Ocean) Now just sit there and don't interrupt
me. I've got a very big deal going on. Large chips. Carloads of 'em.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Beatrice Ocean) That sounds familiar.

Mr. SINATRA: (As Danny) That might be so, but this time it's true.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Beatrice) Oh, good. I like to have rich friends.

Mr. SINATRA: (As Danny) This is one rich friend that wants to spend a bundle
on you.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Beatrice) Gee, thanks.

Mr. SINATRA: (As Danny) OK, that's settled. On the morning of January the
2nd, I'm going to pick you up, and we're going to hop down to Rio, so you pack
a bag.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Beatrice) You're serious. I honestly think you're
serious.

Mr. SINATRA: (As Danny) Well, of course, I'm serious.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Beatrice) A week's trip to Rio.

Mr. SINATRA: (As Danny) Yes.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Beatrice) Oh, Danny, what a prize you are, the only
husband in the world who'd proposition his own wife.

(End of soundbite)

TERRY GROSS, host:

What was it like to work with Sinatra on the set since you already knew him.
I don't know whether you were just friends then or whether you already had a
deeper relationship.

Ms. DICKINSON: He was--I think he was seeing Juliet Prowse during this time.
I'm almost positive about that. So that was good, because it doesn't work
very well when you're romantic, 'cause things can happen at home and interfere
on the set and vice versa. So I was--we were just friends at that time.

GROSS: Why do you think the guys in the Rat Pack needed a group? I mean, a
lot of people like to be loners, but there was a period when, you know,
Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr., Dean Martin, Peter Lawford--they hung together
and they were identified together.

Ms. DICKINSON: I think Frank always liked--he always liked company. You
were not one of his favorites if you didn't hang in there. He was a nightclub
person. He was a late person all his life. And he did not want to stay up
late alone, whereas Dean Martin was very much a loner. He liked going
home--not necessarily alone but not with a bunch around him--maybe a lady or
one friend, but Frank always enjoyed--the more the merrier if they were his
pals. And Sammy liked people around him. I think that came from the stage
and nightclub where you're basically entertaining all the time.

GROSS: When you were romantically involved with Sinatra, was it ever annoying
to have him always want to be in a crowd?

Ms. DICKINSON: No, it's not even a matter of wanting to be in a crowd. He
just didn't want to be alone.

GROSS: Right. But, I mean--well, but wanting to have, like, good friends
surrounding him. Yeah.

Ms. DICKINSON: Well, I--yeah. Yes. I was--I'm one of these that says, `All
right, already. We saw them last night. Why can't we just see somebody else
tonight?' I--he had a tendency to stay with people that he was safe with, very
comfortable with and, you know, no facade. And so he found that very
protective. Since I didn't need that, I was not a Sinatra and there was only
one, we'll never know what it's like to be watched every breath you take and
analyzed and criticized and judged or adored. So he needed that shield of
friends around him where he could totally be himself and not feel ogled. And
so I understood that, but, yeah, I would have--I'm more the loner.

GROSS: Well, you ended up, after you had worked for a few years, starring in
a great Western, "Rio Bravo," which was directed by Howard Hawks. It also
starred John Wayne, Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson.

Ms. DICKINSON: Yeah. And Walter Brennan...

GROSS: Well, of course.

Ms. DICKINSON: ...who practically made the movie. I know he's not billed as
one of the stars, but, boy, didn't he make it special. That's a very good
example of--the woman's role was almost always just--I used to call it, waving
goodbye to the husband on the horse or running into his arms when he came
back. And that was the typical role for a woman in a Western, with the
exception of "Destry Rides Again," Marlene Dietrich, and Feathers in "Rio
Bravo." She was very, very much her own, again, and didn't cower around the
men. She held her own. And it was early in the feminist type of view.
Howard Hawks was very well-known for making all of his women quite strong,
whether it was Westerns or "I Was A Male War Bride" or "Bringing Up Baby." He
liked strong women. He married strong women.

GROSS: What's your favorite scene in "Rio Bravo"?

Ms. DICKINSON: Well, the favorite scene that I had to do was the last scene
where Duke is--comes up and--I don't know what he comes up to see me for, and
he sees me in this rather risque outfit. And he says, `What are you doing in
that?' And she says, `I'm going down to sing.' And she says, `You didn't know
I could sing, did you?' He says, `You're not going down there in that outfit.'
And she starts to cry, `I thought you'd never say it.' He said, `Say what?'
And she says, `That you love me.' And he says, `I didn't say that.' And she
says, `Yes, you did. You just don't know it yet.' And it's just--it's just
wonderful.

GROSS: Well, why don't we hear that scene?

Ms. DICKINSON: OK.

(Soundbite from "Rio Bravo")

Mr. JOHN WAYNE: (As Sheriff John T. Chance) Where are you going?

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Feathers) Downstairs.

Mr. WAYNE: (As John T) You better not.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Feathers) Why had I better not?

Mr. WAYNE: (As John T) Because I'm still sheriff. You wear those things in
public, I'll arrest you.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Feathers) You--oh, John T. Oh, I've waited so long for
you to say that. You--I thought you were never--you have the funniest way of
saying things. Just when I think you're going to say one thing, you say
something else. And it...

Mr. WAYNE: (As John T) All right, never mind about that now. Get those darn
things off. I'll wait outside.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Feathers) No, no, no. You don't have to go. I can use
the screen. Besides I want you to stay here because the other thing is all
over now, isn't it? I'm trying to hurry, but I'm all thumbs. What I had to
go through to put on these tights. Ask a lot of questions. Start to walk
out. I thought you were never going to say it.

Mr. WAYNE: (As John T) Say what?

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Feathers) That you love me.

Mr. WAYNE: (As John T) I said I'd arrest you.

Ms. DICKINSON: (As Feathers) It means the same thing. You know that. You
just won't say it.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: A scene from "Rio Bravo" with John Wayne and Angie Dickinson.

In "The Killers," you starred opposite Lee Marvin. Ronald Reagan was the
heavy in that. I think it was the last movie that he made. Were you
surprised when he became president?

Ms. DICKINSON: You know, with all due respect--and I do adore President
Reagan and saw him on, I would say, six or seven social occasions after he was
president and while he was president--but very surprised when he became
president, yes. He was--since that was his last--he did that film because he
had a contract to satisfy--he owed Universal one more picture, and they said,
`This is it,' and he said, `OK, get it over with.' He didn't like the movie at
all and his character and rightly so, but he just wanted to end that contract
and get on with politics, so he was studying all the time on "The Killers." He
was always reviewing and delving into huge piles of paper. He was on his way
to become governor then. And I was most surprised, yes, although he couldn't
have been lovelier on the set. He just didn't strike me as presidential
material, but he sure was.

GROSS: Did you vote for him?

Ms. DICKINSON: I did not vote for Ronnie, I'm sorry. I'm a Democrat.

GROSS: Did it still hurt to not vote for a friend?

Ms. DICKINSON: Yes, it does. You don't feel like a traitor, but it's a
little harder to put that X down opposite him, yes, because I really liked him
and always did like him and always liked Nancy very much. Used to run into
her 'cause we all lived in Brentwood and used to run into her in the store,
and she was always so nice. But I still was loyal...

DAVIES: Angie Dickinson speaking with Terry Gross. We'll hear more after a
break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

DAVIES: Let's get back to Terry's 2001 interview with actress Angie
Dickinson.

GROSS: You got cast as the star on the TV series "Police Woman"...

Ms. DICKINSON: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: ...which-- a series you did for about four years. You played Sergeant
Pepper Anderson, a divorced woman working undercover. This was a pretty
groundbreaking series, 'cause you had like a woman action hero starring in
prime time.

Ms. DICKINSON: It was absolutely groundbreaking. There was none before.
And that's why I mentioned the date--is because I just happened to look it up
the other day, and I realized that I had not re-emerged yet in '74. I did
when I came on with the show, but that was around September or so.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Ms. DICKINSON: The only shows that succeeded to star a woman were the
comedies. And this was the first drama starring a woman, an hour show and the
first cop that succeeded. There were a couple of other attempts, but they
died off right away, so I'm very proud of that.

GROSS: How did it affect your personal life to do TV for four years?

Ms. DICKINSON: It broke it. They don't even do what I did anymore because
they have more of a team. It's just virtually impossible to do what I did, to
be in everything and to work 12 hours a day and every day. So I had no social
life. I didn't see a foreign movie for five years. I look at that--we used
to--I used to love to go to the best movies, and that was my criterion to say,
`I never had the extra time to go take in a foreign movie in all that time,'
so I lost friends, lost a husband. My daughter still talks about how lonely
she was for four years while I was at work, so it takes a terrible toll.

GROSS: The husband you lost is the one you broke up with, Burt Bacharach.

Ms. DICKINSON: Oh, yeah, but we--I would have lost him anyway, because we
were--we just--we weren't going to make it, but it contributed to it early.

GROSS: Angie Dickinson, you started acting in the 1950s. Of all the
different fashion eras that you've worked through, what were some of the best
and worse trends in clothing, hair and makeup, some of the best and worse?

Ms. DICKINSON: The '50s were the pits. The '50s for the clothes was the
worst. The '50s for the hair was the worst. We all looked like Esther
Williams. I certainly did. And it--there was...

GROSS: With bouffant hair?

Ms. DICKINSON: No, bouffant didn't come till the '60s.

GROSS: Well, those tight curls, is that what you mean?

Ms. DICKINSON: Yeah, tight curls.

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah.

Ms. DICKINSON: And Doris Day--we all--I mean, you're hard-pressed sometimes
to say, `Is that Lana Turner or is that me?' because the hairstyles and the
clothes were so similar. There was no individuality and no rebellion yet, and
so the '60s for the clothes for the men was great. That was the first time
with The Beatles wearing their hair, quote, "long," which was not long, but
they had sideburns and long hair. And then for costume, they had beads and
Nehru jackets and wild colors and bell-bottom pants. And the miniskirt was
the greatest change for--especially for somebody who has some good-looking
legs. And they were good on women without great-looking legs. It was just
wonderfully revolutionary. You now could be an individual with your hair and
your wardrobe.

GROSS: You wore those pale lipsticks in the '60s, those pale pinks.

Ms. DICKINSON: Yeah. I always wore pale lipstick. I don't even know what I
wore in the '50s, but in the '60s, that was certainly my era. And I know Jose
Eber, the great hairdresser--he says, `You and Ann-Margret--you never change.
You wear the same makeup all these years, and it always looks great.' I'm not
sure how great I look in it, but I just can't let go of that. And I wear pale
lipstick because I look dreadful in dark lipstick. There's only one reason
why I wear it.

GROSS: How did you become a blonde?

Ms. DICKINSON: I became a blonde because I was doing a movie, newly under
contract to Warner Bros. This might interest you as the feminist kind of aura
of human rights. Howard Hawks finished "Rio Bravo," and he put me under
contract for it, of course. And I was thrilled to sign--to be under contract
to Howard Hawks. Then he asked for a nine-month postponement or a six-month
postponement I think it was, before he started paying me. And I had to give
it to him, of course, 'cause it was about a year after the movie was made that
it was released. And one day, my agent told me I was going to get a test for
a part in "The Bramble Bush" at Warner Bros. And I said, `Oh, great.'

So I went to the studio, and I said, `Hi, I'm Angie, and I'm here to test for
something on Stage 8.' And they said, `We'll get your pass for you. You've
got your permanent pass right here.' And I said, `No, I'm just coming to
screen test.' They said, `No, you've got a permanent pass. It's right here.'
I said, `What do you mean?' He says, `You're under contract here.' And that's
how I found out from the guard at the gate that I was sold by Howard Hawks to
Warner Bros., which did not make me happy. And so I got the part, but since
Barbara Rush was a brunette and I was a brunette, they, of course, couldn't
have two women with the same color hair. They blonded my hair.

GROSS: And that stuck?

Ms. DICKINSON: It seems so silly to me because--but that's how they--it was
a very ordinary movie and not very good, and it stuck. I got to like it, and
then I kept it.

GROSS: But, you know, it's true, like, actresses used to be seen as, like,
the blonde or the brunette.

Ms. DICKINSON: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: I mean, that was such--it was seen as such an important defining
characteristic.

Ms. DICKINSON: Yes. Well, above all, you must not mix them up.

GROSS: Right.

Ms. DICKINSON: Now I don't think I looked anything like Barbara Rush at all,
but when you think back, I must say I go to some movies now, and I say, `I
think that's so and so, or is it so and so? They look quite a bit alike.' So
perhaps the producer was right, but it certainly worked out fine for me
because the blonde did--it worked better for me. I had very icky, dark brown
hair; still do.

GROSS: Now let me ask you, you eventually ended up insuring your legs with
Lloyd's of London for $1 million. And that got a lot of publicity. Was that
a studio publicity stunt or did they actually need you to be--to insure your
legs?

Ms. DICKINSON: No, they insured my legs because--this was after Warner Bros.
contract and I finished that or got out of it. Then I went to Universal. I
was auditioning for the role of Gregory Peck's romantic interest in "Captain
Newman, MD," and they said, `You will get the part, if you sign a seven-year
contract.' And I thought, `Oh, God, here we go again. Get stuck in stupid
movies for seven years,' but I had no choice. I wanted that movie. And it
was a real coup at the time, so I accepted that, and so now they had to build
me as a star, if I was going to be worth my weight. And so they would do
different tricks, and one of them was to insure my legs. So I said, `Now, you
guys, is this legitimate or is this just a gag?' And they said, `No, no, it's
legitimate, but just don't ask us how long,' so I suppose they insured them
for the minimal amount of time, whether it was a week, an hour or a day. I'm
sure it wasn't for more than a week.

GROSS: Right.

Ms. DICKINSON: But it worked very nicely. It was very good publicity. They
were pretty legs. And there is something about pretty legs.

GROSS: Angie Dickinson, thank you so much for talking with us.

Ms. DICKINSON: Terry, I loved it.

DAVIES: Angie Dickinson speaking with Terry Gross. Dickinson's 1970s TV
series "Police Woman" has just come out on DVD.

Coming up, David Edelstein on the French film "Army of Shadows."

This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

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Review: Film critic David Edelstein reviews "Army of Shadows,"
French film made in 1969 by Jean-Piere Melville about the French
Resistance
DAVE DAVIES, host:

The distributor Rialto Pictures has made a name for itself with beautifully
restored theatrical reissues of important classic films, among them Renoir's
"Grand Illusion," Fellini's "Nights of Cabiria," "The Battle of Algiers" and
even the original Japanese language "Godzilla." They've also drawn attention
to less well-known masterworks including Carol Reed's "Fallen Idol" and now
Jean-Pierre Melville's "Army of Shadows." The film opened in New York at the
film forum last month. It's now in several major cities and will be more
widely released in June. Film critic David Edelstein has a review.

Mr. DAVID EDELSTEIN: The 1969 French resistance epic "Army of Shadows" was
never theatrically distributed in the United States, which is an
incomprehensible lapse. It's a major film by a major director, Jean-Pierre
Melville, and I'm not pronouncing it Mel-veele because he borrowed his last
name from Herman and it's silly to Frenchify it. The American surname says a
lot about Melville's inspirations. He's best known for "Bob le flambeur," "Le
Cercle rouge" and "Le Samourai," cool, sleek American-style gangster films
that had a huge influence on the French New Wave of the early '60s. And while
"Army of Shadows" is far from Melville's gangster films in its setting, it has
something of the same cool. This time though, that cool has an undercurrent
of despair.

"Army of Shadows" is just short of two and a half hours, and there's very
little in the way of emotional release. It's episodic, and its exposition
comes in dribs and drabs. It begins in the middle. We watch Gerbier, played
by Lino Ventura, in a van being taken to a Nazi prison camp. He's a
drab-looking man and difficult to read. And that we learn is by design. He
will reveal nothing to his captors. The first section of the film is so
deliberate that when he's subsequently taken to a German police station for
what will surely be a brutal interrogation, it's a shock when he makes a
violent escape. In the course of the next hour, we meet Gerbier's team of
resistance spies in their furtive meetings, among them Francois, played by
Jean-Pierre Cassel, the endlessly resourceful Mathilde, played by Simone
Signoret, and the leader of the resistance, a logic professor played by Paul
Meurisse and clearly modeled on the legendary martyr Jean Moulin.

There are no big missions here, no trains or bridges on the River Kwai to be
blown up. In fact, the inevitability of defeat hangs in the air and still
these resistance fighters go on. They execute with both horror and resolve a
young man who's betrayed them. They move people in and out of the country,
they attempt to rescue a captured and tortured comrade, or failing that, to
slip him a cyanide capsule so that he may end his own life.

"Army of Shadows" is a procedural, a film in which much time is taken up with
minutiae, how planes take off and land, how Gerbier parachutes at night, back
into the country after a stay in England. The more conventionally dramatic
parts of the film don't always work. The decision of one character to martyr
himself lacks both narrative and psychological clarity. And a relationship
between two brothers who don't truly know each other seems overly literary.
But the grim stoicism grows on you and becomes overwhelming.

The time of the film is late, gray autumn, bordering on winter, and throughout
you hear the distant howl of cold winds. Ventura was not on speaking terms
with his director, and he incorporated his sense of isolation into his
performance. There's something wrenching in this film's cool. It's as if
Melville can't fully give vent to his own emotions any more than the men and
women in the French resistance could allow their anguish over what the Nazis
had done to their country to inhibit their ability to function. Melville
fought in the resistance himself and was reportedly devastated when he saw
"The Sorrow and the Pity," Marcel Ophuls' momentous 1970 documentary about the
French who collaborated with the Nazis. In "Army of Shadows," he holds those
collaborators at arms' length. He can't seem to relate to them at all. It
doesn't matter why they did what they did. They did it, and he and his
comrades did what they had to do.

The film is an indelible testament to people who acted and acted with honor in
the absence of outside reinforcement or a larger faith in God. He might have
called himself Melville, but "Army of Shadows" is French to the core. It's an
existential masterpiece.

DAVIES: David Edelstein is film critic for New York Magazine. He reviewed
"Army of Shadows," now playing in New York, Los Angeles, Washington, DC, and
Chicago. The film opens in other cities next month.

(Credits)

DAVIES: We'll close with a song from Desmond Dekker. The reggae pioneer died
Wednesday of a heart attack. He was 64. This is "Israelites," recorded in
1969 and widely regarded as reggae's first worldwide hit.

For Terry Gross, I'm Dave Davies.

(Soundbite of "Israelites")

Mr. DESMOND DEKKER: (Singing) "Get up in the morning, slaving for bread,
sir, so that every mouth can be fed. Poor me, the Israelite. Aah. Get up in
the morning, slaving for bread, sir, so that every mouth can be fed. Poor me,
the Israelite. Aah. My wife and my kids, they are packed up and leave me.
Darling, she said, I was yours to be seen. Poor me, the Israelite. Aah.
Shirt them a-tear up, trousers are gone. I don't want to end up like Bonnie
and Clyde. Poor me, the Israelite. Aah."

(End of soundbite)
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