Thom Yorke's 'The Eraser'

DATE Decmeber 28, 2006 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Thom Yorke of Radiohead discusses his depression, the
band's "electronica" influence, and his solo album
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross with another edition in our holiday week
series of music interviews. Up first today we have Thom Yorke, the main
songwriter and lead singer of the British band Radiohead.

When rock critics write about Radiohead, they often use the words "best" and
"greatest." A review in Time magazine was headlined "Radiohead may just be the
best band in the world." Last year, Spin magazine named their 1997 album "OK
Computer" the top album of the past 20 years. Radiohead's latest album, "Hail
to the Thief," came out three years ago.

They're currently at work on their seventh album.

This year, Thom Yorke came out with a solo album called "The Eraser," which he
and the band's long-time producer Nigel Godrich made largely on computers.
New York Time's music critic Jon Pareles put it on his year's top 10 list.

Let's start with a track from Radiohead's "OK Computer." This is "Paranoid
Android."

(Soundbite of "Paranoid Android")

Mr. THOM YORKE: (singing) Please could you stop the noise,
I'm trying to get some rest
From all the unborn chicken voices in my head
What's that?
I may be paranoid, but not an android
What's that?
I may be paranoid, but not an android

When I am king you will be first against the wall

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: When I spoke with Thom Yorke in July, I asked him about the difference
between "OK Computer" and Radiohead's earlier albums "Pablo Honey" and "The
Bends."

Mr. YORKE: When we did "The Bends," we were still figuring out, I think, the
basics even of how to make records. And in the process of doing that, we met
Nigel, who was the engineer on it, who then went and did "OK Computer" with us
and has stayed with us. And then when we did "OK Computer," I think the
difference was that it was like the kids being let loose in the lab, you know.
That's how it felt. I mean...

GROSS: What were you trying that you hadn't tried before?

Mr. YORKE: Well, we bought all our own equipment from some of the proceeds
from "The Bends." And it was all transportable and so it, you know, the
equipment and the concept of recording became part of the creative process
rather than something that was happening in another room over there and we
were just told to `do it again.' So we were trying everything we could think
of, really, within limits. I guess, since then, that's got a little bit out
of hand.

GROSS: So were your musical tastes changing at about this time?

Mr. YORKE: Well, it, I mean, they, you know, they're always changing, and
we're always listening to different things. I mean, one of the most important
things about being in a band, other than just playing together, obviously, is
actually what music you're sharing, what music you're choosing to play to each
other. And around that time there was this series of Ennio Morricone
obsession going on in the band, which really obviously fed, of course, into
the way we were recording.

GROSS: And yet there's no whistler?

Mr. YORKE: No, but there's a lot of pathetic attempts to sort of do similar
sort of things. You know, we bought an old Mellotron and, you know, we're
using lots of those sort of soft distortion like old, you know, deliberately
trying to sort of emulate old recordings, which Nigel is especially good at.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. YORKE: Old recording techniques and stuff, you know.

GROSS: Well, the track I thought we'd play from "OK Computer" is "No
Surprises."

Mr. YORKE: Oh, yeah?

GROSS: Do you want to say anything about writing this?

Mr. YORKE: Well, that's one of the songs that we refer to a lot because,
just in terms of when we're in the midst of a song and we don't know whether
we're just completely wasting our time. And "No Surprises" was like that all
the way through. It was just, `I don't know, I don't know about this.' I
mean, yes, it's a beautiful song, but it just seemed to be too much, too much.
And then gradually sort of chipping away at trying lots and lots of different
things. And then, it's amazing how, as soon as you just got a little bit of
distance from it, as we were finishing the record and placing it in the
record, how powerful it was, really, considering how difficult it was to make.
The nice thing about it, I think, is that you kind of forget about all the
hard stuff. You forget about how difficult it is to do things. Nigel's very
fond of reminding me of that.

GROSS: On "No Surprises"...

Mr. YORKE: Mm.

GROSS: ...was there anything that--any moment where you realized, `OK, this
is actually a good track. This works.'

Mr. YORKE: It was, as often happens, it was actually sort of finally getting
a vocal that made sense, because it was so slow and we had to do sort of--we
ended up, we physically couldn't play it that slow. So it's--we used the old
Beatles technique of record it at the natural speed you want to play it at and
slow it down, and get this sort of strung-out effect. And then singing to
that was just, like, a really quite a weird experience.

GROSS: All right. Well, let's hear the results. This is "No Surprises" from
"OK Computer."

(Soundbite of "No Surprises")

Mr. YORKE: (singing) You were so tired, happy
Bring down the government
They don't, they don't speak for her
I'll take a quiet life, a handshake of carbon monoxide

No alarms and no surprises, no alarms and no surprises
No alarms and no surprises
Silent, silent

(End of Soundbite)

GROSS: That's "No Surprises" from the Radiohead album "OK Computer," and my
guest is Thom Yorke.

Mr. YORKE: Hi.

GROSS: I'm wondering if--I've read this, and I know it's no secret that
you've had--

Mr. YORKE: I have no secrets.

GROSS: ...an issue with depression...

Mr. YORKE: Oh, right.

GROSS: ...over the years.

Mr. YORKE: Oh, that secret.

GROSS: That secret, yes. So how do you think that's affected you as a
songwriter, a singer? Just in terms of like, you know, your subject matter or
your tempos, or, you know...

Mr. YORKE: Yeah.

GROSS: ...the kind of mood you're going for.

Mr. YORKE: I think it's most--both destructive and highly creative. And in
some ways, it's a blessing because when you're in the midst of it, you hear
things and see things in a different way. I mean, actually, some people do
literally see things in a different way. Some people, the things actually do
actually get darker and sounds actually change and blah-blah-blah. And I find
that it's, in a way, it's, you know, my brain is set to receive other things.

And, you know, the trouble with it is, really, that it's debilitating as well,
because you haven't any--you have a problem--you don't have energy. You don't
have--in order to do--especially in a band, actually, but just generally to be
creative, you need to have a lot of energy. You can't just, you know. And so
you can be extremely negative.

But it's really not a big deal, but at the same--I mean, I choose to talk
about it publicly because I've always had a problem with the fact that people
call our music depressing because it's like, `What, you don't get depressed?
What, your whole life is roses, is it?' You know, that's, to me, is like, `You
are in denial and you are the one with the problem.' I mean, I, yeah, I want
to go out. And I listen to disco music, I go, you know, I do this stuff, but
it just so happens that I'm built to do this. This is what I do. I mean,
that's fine. But, you know--and I think that's why I, you know, that was why
I chose to make a thing out of it, because it was just really annoying me.

I know that after, or during, the "OK Computer" tour, which ended up being,
like, a really long tour, and it sounds like you had real trouble toward the
end of it. That it...

Mr. YORKE: There was just a general madness going on, and it started out as
being fun. And then it ceased to be fun and ceased to be relevant to the
music, I think.

GROSS: From what I read, it sounds like there were times onstage during that
tour when you...

Mr. YORKE: Yeah.

GROSS: ...when you were kind of unraveling.

Mr. YORKE: Yeah, that was weird. I mean, I don't know quite why. I think a
lot of the shows were very big and it was not interesting, and mostly it was
just not interesting. It just got boring. Which sounds incredibly selfish,
but why would you just carry on playing these tunes? I mean, you know, the
trouble with it was that by the time we'd done that record, we were so sick of
those tunes. And then you're faced with the prospect of, like, having to play
them for another year and a half which, you know, you've got to do because
you've got to let people know what it's about. And one of the things that
we're good at is playing the tunes and blah-blah-blah. But, you know, there
just sort of comes a point where it's like, this is--you're going through the
motions. And as soon as you realize, `I am going through the motions; this is
sounding tired,' that's it, you know? You--there is kind of no point. This
is--it's rock 'n' roll. There's no point in you being there. It's like, it
ceases to be rock 'n' roll and just becomes some sort of dodgy circus.

GROSS: So did you feel like you were basically forced into the position of
being phony because you were no longer feeling the songs with the same
intensity, and yet you had to play them as if you did?

Mr. YORKE: Well, that was the thing for me. I refused to still stand on the
stage and pretend I was really into it when I wasn't. So I would stand there
on the stage for about half a minute looking out into the audience
going...(sighs)...`I'm not really into this.' Because that was me trying not
to be fake about it.

GROSS: But, of course, that's a real insult to the people who paid a lot of
money to come hear you.

Mr. YORKE: Yeah. Except but it's like, but then, well, what do you want?
Do you want me to be genuine or do you want me to just pretend? Which do you
want, you know? The genuine thing, for me, to do at this point would just to
get on a train and go home.

GROSS: My guest is Thom Yorke of the band Radiohead. We'll talk more after a
break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: My guest is Thom Yorke of Radiohead. He's the band's main songwriter
and lead singer. This year he came out with a solo CD called "The Eraser."

Well, I want to play another track, and this is from your album "Kid A."

Mr. YORKE: Rah.

GROSS: And I thought we could play "Idioteque."

Mr. YORKE: Hurrah. I like that one.

GROSS: And you got a real, like, electronic thing going on here. When did
you start getting interested in electronic instruments? And I've been really
wondering if you went back and listened to a lot of, like, the early
electronic avant garde music of, say, the '60s?

Mr. YORKE: I did, actually. I mean--the things I was really, really into at
college was electronic music. I was massively into it.

GROSS: Like what kind? Were you...

Mr. YORKE: Well, the Detroit techno stuff that was coming out, and I was
getting--criminy, I don't know what it was, half of it, you know. And there
was all these--there was all this British answer to it, as well as the Warp
label. And they were coming out with just amazing stuff. I mean, the reason
it was amazing was because I was deejaying every Friday at college. And the
stuff that sounded the most exciting coming out of the speakers was not the
rock music. It was this minimal techno. It was just--it just sounded
fantastic coming out of your Technics 1200s that the needle's a bit damaged
and the speakers are kind of blowing up, and you've had a little bit too much
to drink and some twit is asking for the Pogues again. So you just whack on
like some Warp record really loud and just clear the dance floor. But you
were having the best time, and that's--that was my sort of formative thing,
the electronic. It wasn't actually sort of Kraftwerk. And I knew that was
the reference point. And I had "Autobahn," but I didn't know, you know, the
real history behind Kraftwerk at all, you know? I came to it all backwards,
as one does.

And then I got really heavily back into it after "OK Computer," because I'd
absolutely had enough of rock music, predictably enough, you know. I
didn't--I hadn't had enough of being in the band, but I'd had enough of those
sounds. I mean, like, "OK Computer" was a very consciously acoustic record,
using acoustic spaces very, very deliberately, hardly using any fake reverbs,
using real reverbs, and real groove sounds, putting mikes in the wrong ends of
the room and all this sort of stuff.

We'd all read this book on how recording music had changed the way music was
since it was coming out with speakers, and it wasn't live. And the logical
conclusion of this book was electronic music, to me. It was like, you know,
if you put a microphone in front of something, and then you play it out the
speaker, there's all this extra distance between what's really happening and
you. And what was so exciting about electronic music is it's like literally
there's no distance between the music and the speaker. It's just straight out
the speaker. There's no nothing else there at all.

GROSS: Now I could see you being really interested in this and then you could
create this, you know, a electronic environment that you could then sing over.

Mr. YORKE: Yeah.

GROSS: What about the guitarist and the bass player in your band?

Mr. YORKE: Yeah, it was...

GROSS: How did they feel about it?

Mr. YORKE: It was a bit of a brain mash. They were definitely not into it
to begin with. But at the same time, you know, the recordings didn't really
end up like that. I mean, both "Kid A" and "Amnesiac" were lots and lots of
different stuff. There's been a bit of focus on, `Oh, that's when they went
all electronic.' Well, OK, you could say the first song on "Kid A,"
"Everything in Its Right Place," is electronic. But, you know, we'd actually
tried it every other way and it didn't work. And that's how it worked. So
that's that, you know. It wasn't like, `Yes, now we are making electronic
records. You are either with me or you're against me.' It wasn't really like
that.

GROSS: OK. Well, let's hear "Idioteque" from "Kid A." This is Radiohead and
my guest is Thom Yorke.

(Soundbite of "Idioteque" from "Kid A")

Mr. YORKE: (singing)
Who's in a bunker?
Who's in a bunker?
Women and children first
And the children first
And the children
I laugh until my head comes off
I'll swallow till I burst
Until I burst
Until I

Who's in a bunker?
Who's in a bunker?
I have seen too much
You haven't seen enough
You haven't seen it
I'll laugh until my head comes off
Women and children first
And children first
And children

Here I'm allowed
Everything all of the time
Here I'm allowed
Everything all of the time

Ice age coming
Ice age coming

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: That's Radiohead from their CD "Kid A."

So we were talking a little bit about your kind of electronic or
electronica...

Mr. YORKE: Mm. Mm.

GROSS: ...yeah, influence there.

Mr. YORKE: Yes.

GROSS: And you have a solo CD. It's not Radiohead. It's a Thom Yorke CD and
that's very electronica...

Mr. YORKE: Yes.

GROSS: ...influence. So did you feel freer to head in that direction
without...

Mr. YORKE: I thought I...

GROSS: ...without the other musicians?

Mr. YORKE: Yeah, I wanted to do--doing electronic music is a very--or can be
a very mono experience. It's like you're just sitting there and you're
looking at the computer, blah-blah-blah. I mean it's not fun for a group of
musicians to sit in a room and watch a screen. It's not very interesting,
really. And if you work--well, I mean, in this case, it was very much a
collaboration between me and Nigel. But when you're just sort of sitting
there and there's only two of you, there was very little discussion going on.
You're just doing it which, you know, when it's electronic music, seems to
make quite a lot of sense, really.

I mean, even that's, I mean, that's the case when we were doing "Kid A," as
well. You know, a lot of the stuff on that was just, well, there'd be one or
two people involved. And it's just in this particular instance we were taking
a break and said, `I really wanted to just go off and try doing something on
my own. Just, I want to know what it feels like,' you know. I mean, that
doesn't mean we're never going to do that stuff again either.

And in fact, I think one of the interesting things about it was just how, you
know, you have to work on intuition. And it was done very quickly and very
fast, and you get your sense of instinct sort of back on things, and I feel
that will feed well into working with a band. Well, it is doing already,
really.

GROSS: Well, Thom Yorke, thank you so much for talking with us.

Mr. YORKE: Thanks, Terry. That was cool.

GROSS: Thom Yorke is the main songwriter and lead singer of the band
Radiohead. I spoke with him in July. This year he released a solo CD called
"The Eraser." Here's track from it called "Atoms for Peace." I'm Terry Gross
and this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of "Atoms for Peace")

Mr. YORKE: (singing)
No more going down the dark side
With your flying saucer eyes
No more falling down a wormhole
That I have to pull you out
The wriggling twiggling worm inside
Devours from the inside out

(End of soundbite)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Stuart Murdoch talks about his band Belle & Sebastian's
early career, his bout with CFS, and his major influences
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Since the band Belle & Sebastian formed
10 years ago in Glasgow, Scotland, they've developed a cult following. A
Washington Post review described the band's latest CD, "The Life Pursuit," as
a terrific pop album. In a review of that CD in the online music magazine
Pitchfork, Marc Hogan wrote, "Spanning glam, soul, country and 70s AM rock,
this record is a deceptively wry, wickedly tuneful testament to the fragile
beauty of faith in deities as well as in pop."

My guest is the co-founder of Belle & Sebastion, Stuart Murdoch. He sings and
writes most of the songs. When the band started out, he declined to speak to
the press. But that changed a few years ago. Here's a track from "The Life
Pursuit" called "Another Sunny Day."

(Soundbite of "Another Sunny Day")

Mr. STUART MURDOCH: (Singing) Another sunny day
I met you up in the garden
You were digging plants
I dug you, beg your pardon
I took a photograph of you
in the herbaceous border
It broke the heart of men and
Flowers and girls and trees

Another rainy day
We're trapped inside with a train set.
Chocolate on the boil
Steamy windows when we met.

You've got the attic window
Looking out on the cathedral.
And on a Sunday evening
Bells ring out in the dusk.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: I spoke to Stuart Murdoch earlier this year when Belle & Sebastian
were on tour in the US. I asked him how he started writing songs.

Mr. MURDOCH: Well, to be quite honest, I had a busy period when I was
younger. I was at college and I was deejaying, and I was working as a roadie
and working in a record shop. And then I actually got unwell, and I had to
give up all these pursuits one by one over a period of time, and then for
quite a few years, in fact, for seven years, I was pretty much out of the
game. And it was during this period that I found a lot of solace in being
able to write a song.

GROSS: So I had read a reference to CFS, chronic fatigue syndrome. Is that
what you have?

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes, pretty much. It was all sorts of post-viral difficulties.
It was a major drag, as you can imagine.

GROSS: Well, it must have been really awful to go from having this life where
you're, you know, you are a deejay in clubs and, you know, living this really
interesting life, going to all the record stores, and then you're, like, stuck
at home. Did you move back home with your parents?

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes, I had to--I moved back in with folks, and they put up with
me, and pretty much I shed--like you said, I shed everything, all my friends
and activities, not because I wanted to but simply because I had to.

GROSS: Boy, it must be hard to start something new and difficult, like
writing songs when you're sick.

Mr. MURDOCH: It was, but--well, it was, but it felt like the one major thing
that I had. When I started to do it, I realized that this could be a way out,
and this could almost make up for what was happening to me.

GROSS: Well, I'd like to play a song that you wrote that's on the first CD,
the first Belle & Sebastian CD, "Tigermilk," and of course, I don't really
know which songs you wrote because you don't include songwriter credits on the
CDs. Why not?

Mr. MURDOCH: I'm not really sure. It just, at the time, it just seemed
unimportant.

GROSS: Well, did you write "Expectations"?

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes.

GROSS: Good. That's the one I was going to play.

Mr. MURDOCH: Good.

GROSS: So we'll listen to that. Do you want to say anything about writing
the song? I mean, it's a story song, it's a character song. And--I mean, I
think of you in the song carrying on the tradition of, say, Ray Davies from
the Kinks and Randy Newman. Of, you know, it's not a confessional song.

Mr. MURDOCH: Yeah.

GROSS: It is not about you.

Mr. MURDOCH: Yeah.

GROSS: It's about a character.

Mr. MURDOCH: That's right. I had great fun with these characters,
especially painting a character, someone who I would have felt was pretty hip
at the time, and you sort of bring them to life in your imagination.

GROSS: So you thought they were pretty hip at the time you were writing this
song?

Mr. MURDOCH: I think so, yeah.

GROSS: So this is about somebody who makes life-size models of the Velvet
Underground in clay.

Mr. MURDOCH: I mean, wouldn't that be fantastic? I mean, this is--because I
imagined back to being, you know, much younger and that time, you love it when
you are looking up towards the people in your class or in your school that are
obviously way cooler than you, and you're wondering how--you're wondering what
goes on in their mind. And I just imagined this figure who was, you know,
modeling the Velvet Underground and had this project and this obsession, and I
didn't even know who the Velvet Underground were.

GROSS: OK. Well, let's hear it. This is from the first Belle & Sebastian
album, "Tigermilk." And this is "Expectations."

(Soundbite of "Expectations")

Mr. MURDOCH: (Singing) Monday morning wake up
Knowing that you've got to go to school
Tell your mum what to expect
She says it's right out of the blue
Do you want to work in Debenham's
Because that's what they expect
Start in Lingerie
And Doris is your supervisor

And the head said that
You always were a queer one
From the start
For careers you say you want to be
Remembered for your art
Your obsession get you known
Throughout the school
For being strange
Making life-size models
Of the Velvet Underground in clay.

In the queue for lunch, they take the piss
You've got no appetite
And the rumour is
You never go with boys
And you are tight.
So they jab you with a fork,
You drop the tray and go berserk
While you're cleaning up the mess,
The teacher's looking up your skirt

Hey, you've been used
Are you calm?
Settle down,
Write a song, I'll sing along.
Soon you will know that you are sane.
You're on top of the world again.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: That's Belle & Sebastian. The song "Expectations" that we just heard
was on their first album, "Tigermilk." It was written and sung by my guest
Stuart Murdoch.

This seems to be really influenced by the group Love.

Mr. MURDOCH: This is one of the groups, along with perhaps an American group
called the Left Bank and, also, a group called The Loving Spoonful...

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. MURDOCH: ...and the English group, the Zombies. Now there's four groups
that our group all revered.

GROSS: Mm-hmm. I can see why.

Mr. MURDOCH: Yeah. Perfect.

GROSS: Now, so here this is your first album and you have. like, strings on
it. There's a trumpet. Did you have friends who could play those instruments
in a rock setting, in a pop setting?

Mr. MURDOCH: Well, I didn't know I had friends until--well, I quite honestly
didn't know these people. They became my friends. But the story of the first
LP was that I had been trying to find these people for so long...

GROSS: People that you could make music with and felt connected to?

Mr. MURDOCH: Absolutely. And during, you know, point in my--you know, when
I wasn't feeling so good, and then, all of a sudden, in this one period of
time, and it was when I was just about to leave Scotland to actually move to
California to try my luck there, that I was asked to produce the "Tigermilk"
LP for a local college. And it was at that point that I met the people that
worked to make the record.

GROSS: Now, doesn't this record have something to do with some kind of
competition?

Mr. MURDOCH: That's right. The college in Glasgow, Stow College, every
year, they sponsored a group or an artist to make a record. And so this year,
they somehow got ahold of a demo tape of mine, and they asked me to make the
record. I think that was the inspiration for what seemed to be the thing that
brought these musicians together rather quickly. It was very fateful.

GROSS: So getting back to the idea that there's strings, trumpet on this CD,
did you hear those sounds in your head? I mean, when you wrote the song, did
you say, `This needs a violin and a trumpet. And this is what they need to be
playing'? Did you hear the song that way in your mind?

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes. Absolutely. That was--if there was one thing about the
sound of, you know, fledgling Belle & Sebastian that I wanted, it was that the
trumpet should be as important as the guitar, that the cello should be as
important as the piano and etc. And that I should form a small compact
baroque unit that would be able to, yeah, play great pop lines.

GROSS: My guest is Stuart Murdoch, the lead singer and songwriter of the band
Belle & Sebastian. Their latest CD is called "The Life Pursuit." More after a
break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: My guest is Stuart Murdoch, the lead singer and songwriter of the band
Belle & Sebastian.

So when you were getting started and you're a band from Glasgow, did it help
to be--in Glasgow itself, did it help to be a local band? Or was that held
against you?

Mr. MURDOCH: Well, we didn't really care about what anybody else thought.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. MURDOCH: We definitely felt as a group that we were deeply
unfashionable. The sort of people that came together for the group were
misfits. We weren't hip at all, in my book. I think that helped, in a way,
because we banded together, and we didn't want anything to do with any of the
other groups around at that time.

GROSS: What made you feel unhip?

Mr. MURDOCH: Probably just healthy paranoia. I can remember getting up in
parties and, you know--I cringe when I think of it now--and almost forcing
people to listen to songs that I'd written playing acoustically. And I can
remember people probably talking up their sleeves thinking, `Oh, I wish this
guy would shut up. I wish this guy would go away.'

There was a distinct feeling in the Glasgow of this period that all the great
music had been done, so why bother? You know, all these great records from
the '60s had been made, so, you know, it was impertinent even to try and write
another song. This fueled me deeply--this made me want to make the most
terrific records that I could imagine.

GROSS: Well, the same year that you released your first album, "Tigermilk,"
1996, you also released an album that--well, yeah, it came out the same year.
And I want to play something from that album. It's called "If You're Feeling
Sinister." And the track I want to play--did you write "Judy and the Dream of
Horses"?

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes. I wrote pretty much all the early stuff. Yes. Yes, I
wrote "Judy."

GROSS: OK. Good. Good. This is a great song, and one of the things I find
interesting about it as a record is that it starts out sounding almost alost
like it's going to be like Gilberto or Jobim, bossa nova, and then it--the
mood changes, and then, you know, the trumpet comes in, and so--I, when I
listen to your music, I just hear all these interesting, different influences
coming together to create your song. Were you interested in bossa nova?

Mr. MURDOCH: Not really. I was more interested in the--in perhaps the
second half of it when it explodes into bubble gum pop. Perhaps it still
sounds a bit folky, that record. I think we could have a better go at it now.
I mean, we were quite naive in our early days of production. But I always
heard "Judy" as being a bit of bubble gum pop.

GROSS: Let's hear it. This is "Judy and the Dream of Horses" from the Belle
& Sebastian CD, "If You're Feeling Sinister."

(Soundbite of "Judy and the Dream of Horses")

Mr. MURDOCH: (Singing) Judy, let's go for a walk
We can kiss and do whatever you want
But you will be disappointed
You will fall asleep with ants in your pants
Judy, you're just trying to find
And keep the dream of horses
And the song she wrote
Was "Judy and the Dream of Horses"
Dream of Horses.
Dream of Horses.
Dream of Horses.

The best-looking boys are taken
The best-looking girls are staying inside
So, Judy, where does that leave you?
Walking the street from morning to night
With a star upon your shoulder
Lighting up the path that you walk,
With a parrot on your shoulder
Saying everything when you talk
If you're ever feeling blue
then write another song
about your dream of horses.
Write a song about your dream of horses.
Call it "Judy and the Dream of Horses."
Call it "Judy and the Dream of Horses."
Your dream of horses.
Da-da-da

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: That's "Judy and the Dream of Horses" from the Belle & Sebastian CD,
"If You're Feeling Sinister" from 1996. My guest Stuart Murdoch sang it and
wrote the song. And--and they have a new CD, which is called "The Life
Pursuit."

Now before we heard this track, you said that you were really thinking of
bubble gum pop. When you think bubble gum, who do you think of?

Mr. MURDOCH: Oh, I'm just thinking of something like "Sugar, Sugar" by the
Archies...

GROSS: Yeah. OK.

Mr. MURDOCH: ...which is basically--I mean, that's my taste. That's the
kind of song I just love. I love just turing on the radio, hearing classic
hits from the '60s and '70s.

GROSS: I am interested in how songs come to you. You know, again, you didn't
start writing songs until you were what, in your early 20s? Would that be it,
about?

Mr. MURDOCH: Probably about right, 24 even.

GROSS: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Which is kind of old in a way. Like a lot of people
who write songs are writing songs in their teens, and there is always original
music going through their head. When you decided you wanted to write songs,
was it an act of will that you, like, sat down and thought, `I'm going to
write a song.' And did you just like consciously craft it, or was there just
like music coming to you in your head?

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes, well, I would say it certainly wasn't an act of will, and
what came to me at first was a desperation to communicate in some way or form.
And it was really through--it was really through words. And it was almost
just by accident that I learned that instead of simply writing bad poetry that
you could write bad poetry with a melody attached and then you could get away
with it.

GROSS: Did you write poetry when you were in high school or college?

Mr. MURDOCH: Well, no. Not really. Not really. It just--the urge just
came to me a few years after I'd gotten sick. But I mean, in a sense, pop
music is bad poetry with a, you know, with a sweetener, and so this is what I
found out. I sat down at the piano, and I formed my first bad poem with a
melody, and I never looked back.

GROSS: My guest is Stuart Murdoch, the lead singer and songwriter of the band
Belle & Sebastian. Their latest CD is called "The Life Pursuit."

More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

(Soundbite of Belle & Sebastian)

Mr. MURDOCH: (Singing) Something you think of the way you're feeling
Because...(unintelligible)

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: My guest is Stuart Murdoch, the lead singer and songwriter of the band
Belle & Sebastian.

You used to live above a church, and you were the church's caretaker. You did
this for how many years?

Mr. MURDOCH: Maybe about seven or eight years.

GROSS: Mm-hmm. And this was--place this for us chronologically, this was
after you had recovered from the chronic fatigue? Were you already recording?

Mr. MURDOCH: This was precisely at the time that the group came together. I
guess I'd been, you know, living from, sort of, room to room around Glasgow
and just, you know, getting on with my sort of gloomy existence up to a point.
And then I attended the church, and the minister knew that I didn't really
have a permanent place to stay, and he offered that I should stay in the
church building, the church hall, and look after the premise and, you know,
and not pay rent. So it was a nice arrangement where I did this job, and I
lived there for free--and this was at exactly the same time that the group
came together at January 1996, which was a couple of months before "Tigermilk"
was recorded.

GROSS: So what was it like to live above a church? I mean, did you feel the
specialness of the--you know, like, some churches in particular have a
very--either spiritual or at least beautiful and, in some situations, ancient
or old feeling about them. I don't know what kind of church this was, whether
this was a little corner church or, you know, a beautiful and very old church.

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes, well, there was a mixture of that. There was the main
church building which was just 100 yards up the street. And this was the
smaller building where all the clubs and societies used to meet, and they had
sort of social gatherings in the hall. And so it was busy all the time with
the groups, with the old ladies coming in to drink their coffee in the morning
or the mothers and toddlers coming in in the afternoon. And there would be
bridge clubs and choirs and drama clubs and cubs and scouts. And so it was
busy. It was social. And I must admit, I liked it, and I--and there was a
special atmosphere and--from the place--and I didn't take that for granted. I
used to--you know, when I was cleaning up at night and everybody had gone and
the huge hall had a special atmosphere with the streetlight coming in, and I
loved that.

GROSS: Well, I thought I'd play a song that I'm assuming you wrote, and you
can tell me if you did. It's called "If You Find Yourself Caught in Love."
And, you know, it's a song that certainly acknowledges religion. Did you
write this one?

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes, I did. Uh-huh.

GROSS: Do you want to talk about this song a little bit?

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes. It is a bit of a funny one, because it does almost--it
has a certain gospel sort of hint to it. And it's something, at the time when
I was writing, I thought, `Well, should I be so overt?' Because I've often
sort of couched any religious overtones, you know, within characters or
something like that in the past. But this is a bit more out there, and then I
just thought, `Come on. We've been doing this for years. Why not? You know,
why not just a bit more straightforward?'

GROSS: Was it hard to figure out a way to get some acknowledgment of God in a
song without it sounding like Christian rock?

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes. It's a fine line, isn't it? I mean, I don't mean to be
down on Christian rock, but it's not my cup of tea. So, I guess you just got
to do what you feel, all the time be, you know, be led by taste. Just you
have to do what you like.

GROSS: OK. So this is from the Belle & Sebastian CD "Dear Catastrophe
Waitress." The song is "If You Find Yourself Caught in Love, Say a Prayer to
the Man Above."

(Soundbite of "If You Find Yourself Caught in Love")

Mr. MURDOCH: (Singing) If you find yourself caught in love,
Say a prayer to the man above

Thank Him for everything you know
You should thank Him for
every breath you blow.

If you find yourself caught in love,
Say a prayer to the man above
Thank him for every day you pass
You should thank him for
Saving your sorry ass

If you're single but looking out
You must raise your prayer to a shout
Another partner must be found
Someone to take your life beyond
Another TV "I "Love 1999"
Just one more box of cheapo wine

If you find yourself caught in love
Say a prayer to the man above
But if you don't
Listen to the voices
Then, my friend
You'll soon run out of choices.
What a pity it would be!
You talk of freedom,
Don't you see.
The only freedom that
You'll ever really know
Is written in books from long ago.

Give up your will to Him that loves you,
Things will change--I'm not saying overnight.
You've got to start somewhere
Shed a tear for the one you love

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: That's "If You Find Yourself Caught in Love" from the Belle &
Sebastian CD "Dear Catastrophe Waitress." My guest Stuart Murdoch wrote and
sung that song, and they have a new CD now.

So let's try to bring ourselves up to date a little bit. You're no longer
living above the church. Do you live in Glasgow?

Mr. MURDOCH: Nope. Yes, I actually just moved out of the church last year.

GROSS: Last year, wow! Cool. What was it like when fans--I mean, fans must
have known you lived there. So--and it's certainly got to be an easy place to
find.

Mr. MURDOCH: Yes. It was. I think our fans have always been very
respectful...

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. MURDOCH: ...of the group, so that's been nice from the start. And
whenever we have, you know, run-ins with fans, or whenever the fans have come
to the church, which has happened quite regularly, they get a little bit more
than they bargained for. Because perhaps they--they want to creep in and sit
quietly in one of the pews at the back and may be spot me from afar or
whatever. But they get pounced on by the congregation, by the ladies in the
church. And they have to come and drink tea and sign the visitor's book and
explain where they're from. So they're made welcome.

GROSS: Well, Stuart Murdoch, thank you very much for talking with us.

Mr. MURDOCH: It's been a pleasure.

GROSS: Stuart Murdoch is the lead singer and songwriter of the band Belle &
Sebastian. I spoke with him in March. Belle & Sebastian's latest CD is
called "The Life Pursuit."

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.

(Soundbite of "Funny Little Frog")

Mr. MURDOCH: (Singing) Honey, loving you is the greatest thing
I get to be myself and I get to sing
I get to play at being irresponsible
I come home late at night and love your soul
I never forget you in my prayers
I never had a bad thing to report

You're my picture on the wall
You're my vision in the hall
You're the one I'm talking to
When I get in from my work.
You are my girl, and you don't even know it
I am living out the life of a poet
I am the jester in the ancient court
And you're the funny little frog in my throat

My eyesight's fading, my hearing's dim
I can't get insured for the state I'm in

(End of soundbite)
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