Lee Sung Jin talks about the breakthrough that led him to 'BEEF'

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And my guest today is creator, writer and director Lee Sung Jin. The second season of his Netflix series "Beef" just earned 16 Emmy nominations, including nominations for writing, directing and executive producing. Lee says he writes what he knows, and what he keeps returning to are the pressures people carry but rarely talk about - money, class and the anger we sometimes swallow to get through the day. The idea for Season 2 began when Lee was walking through his neighborhood and heard a couple arguing with each other inside of their home. Later, when he told the story, his younger friends were horrified. Did you call 911, they asked? Friends his own age had almost the opposite reaction. They shrugged.

Lee couldn't stop thinking about that split, what it revealed about what different generations expect from relationships, and what happens when the private lives of one generation collide with the values of another. That became the new season of "Beef." Oscar Isaac and Carey Mulligan play a married couple whose ugliest private fight is secretly recorded by two young employees, Ashley and Austin, played by Cailee Spaeny and Charles Melton. The next morning, Austin comes over and offers Mulligan's character a safe place if she needs it. And she tells him that he's misunderstood the situation.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BEEF")

CAREY MULLIGAN: (As Lindsay Crane-Martin) How old are you?

CHARLES MELTON: (As Austin Davis) Twenty-nine.

MULLIGAN: (As Lindsay Crane-Martin) And how long have you and - what's her name?

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) Ashley.

MULLIGAN: (As Lindsay Crane-Martin) It's Ashley. How long have you and Ashley been going out?

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) A year and a half.

MULLIGAN: (As Lindsay Crane-Martin) Wow. Oh, so early. Well, you've got a good fight coming. And when it does come, you two are going to be stronger for it.

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) If I may say this, ma'am, I don't think that's how relationships work.

MULLIGAN: (As Lindsay Crane-Martin) All right. Well, all I'll say is that all the couples I know that last, they've really had at it, you know? It's actually the ones that don't where someone's usually hiding something. I mean, not to say that that's your situation with...

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) Ashley.

MULLIGAN: (As Lindsay Crane-Martin) Ashley. But the bad does have to come out somewhere. Do you understand?

MOSLEY: The first season of "Beef," starring Ali Wong and Steven Yeun, also grew out of a moment Lee couldn't let go of, a road rage encounter that ended with him following another driver for nearly half an hour. That season won eight Emmys, including outstanding limited series. Before creating "Beef," Lee spent years writing for comedies, including "It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia" and "Silicon Valley." Lee Sung Jin, welcome to FRESH AIR and congratulations.

LEE SUNG JIN: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

MOSLEY: And I'm just so curious. What was it about your friends' reaction to those people fighting in your neighborhood that really sparked this for you?

LEE: Well, you know, to be honest, the actual neighbors are older. They're probably boomers, I think. I don't know their exact age. But when I was talking to friends and writers, it was interesting that the 40-some-year-olds were all defending the boomers.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

LEE: And I was trying to examine why that is. And I'm like, oh, no, it's because we're old now (laughter).

MOSLEY: We know what it's like to be in a relationship.

LEE: Yeah, yeah.

MOSLEY: Yeah (laughter).

LEE: Yeah. And I thought that, oh, wow, like, elder millennials haven't really - hadn't really seen characters wrestle with the fact that, oh, we're starting to feel and do things that the previous generation did for the first time. And, you know, as someone who's 44, that felt very potent and relevant. And so, yeah, like, it just kind of sparked something in me.

MOSLEY: I also wondered, is there something very specific about midlife at this time period for millennials in particular? Because in this series, Oscar Isaac and Carey Mulligan, they play Josh and Lindsay. And they're a married couple who - Josh actually works for this really swanky country club. And then the two younger people, they also work there. Josh has a little bit more power because he's a manager, but all of them kind of don't have power.

LEE: Yeah.

MOSLEY: But they begin, throughout the course of the series, to battle against each other, instead of the folks who are the ones with the money and power who are part of the country club, you know?

LEE: Exactly.

MOSLEY: Yeah, that's just interesting.

LEE: That was very much intended, you know? I was - I had the privilege of, you know, getting to use a country club for a month because I was house-sitting for one of my best friends who - you know, we've been friends since our mid-20s. We were broke and poor together, temped in random places in LA. And he recently came into a lot of money in tech over the last few years. And so he became a member of Montecito Country Club. And I was house-sitting for him for, like, a month, and he allowed me to use his membership while I was there. And, you know, like, I kind of turned my nose up at it, being like, that's crazy the amount of money you're paying for this place.

MOSLEY: How much?

LEE: It's a 300k initiation fee.

MOSLEY: (Laughter).

LEE: That's just to apply.

MOSLEY: Not even your yearly dues, huh?

LEE: No, no.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

LEE: So then it's dues, all this stuff and, you know, you're encouraged to donate. And then once you enter the club, it's not like it's, like, a free buffet. You pay for everything. And everything's, you know, extraordinarily costly. And, you know, I found myself, like, you know, three days into using it, where I'm like, well, can I see an application, please, you know?

(LAUGHTER)

LEE: And so, yeah, while I was there, I was observing that you know, probably most of the members are, like, boomer, silent gen, from my estimation. And then almost all the workers were millennial and Gen Z. And I thought, well, that's, you know, analogy for 2026 if I've ever seen one, where no matter how hard the millennials and Gen Z workers work, they're never going to get to be members. They're not going to be able to pay that 300k initiation fee. And that felt like an appropriate metaphor for, I think, how a lot of people are feeling today, you know?

MOSLEY: Did you ever feel comfortable in those places?

LEE: You know, I think humans have this really weird ability to hedonically adapt so fast, you know? And I think, like, yeah, you enter there and you see this opulence. And just everything's perfect. The grass is perfectly manicured. You know, there's, you know, for every member, like, you know, 12 staff, like, you know, eyeing you and seeing your every need. And then you're like, oh, like, this is wild that anyone lives this way. And then, like, yeah, you then, like - you do it a couple times, and then you expect it. And then you get upset when it doesn't happen.

MOSLEY: Happen.

LEE: Yeah. And that also is a theme that really hit home for me. And I thought it would be interesting to have, you know, a Gen Z couple that's starting at the very bottom, and you see slowly, over time how easy it is to become the generation before you that you were judging and criticizing the whole time.

MOSLEY: There's a particular episode that also almost comes directly from your life. And it's Episode 4.

LEE: Yes.

MOSLEY: Ashley and Austin, played by Cailee Spaeny and Charles Melton, spend almost the entire episode wrapped in an emergency room waiting room. And Charles Melton speaks first.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BEEF")

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) OK, we're in the system. Shouldn't be too long.

CAILEE SPAENY: (As Ashley Miller) Thanks for taking care of me. I love you so much.

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) And I love you.

SPAENY: (As Ashley Miller) Thank God for health insurance (laughter).

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) She said you have a super high deductible, 5,000.

SPAENY: (As Ashley Miller) Oh, wow. We can deduct $5,000? What if it costs less? Do they give us the difference?

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) It's kind of the opposite.

SPAENY: (As Ashley Miller) Huh?

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) We pay up to 5,000.

SPAENY: (As Ashley Miller) Then what is health insurance?

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) They cover after we hit the deductible.

SPAENY: (As Ashley Miller) Then why do they call it a deductible? You deduct.

MELTON: (As Austin Davis) I know. It's a broken system for sure.

MOSLEY: Right? Why is it called a deductible, right (laughter)?

LEE: Exactly. Yeah, those were thoughts I had in my 20s, you know?

MOSLEY: Yeah. You actually spent 10-plus hours in a hospital emergency room. This came from real life.

LEE: Yeah, in the middle of the writing season - you know, in a weird way, was serendipitous in the sense that we were sort of stuck narratively. I think we had written three episodes and, you know, not really sure what would happen next. And oddly enough, kind of in the middle of that, there was a, you know, sort of emergency that led to a, I want to say, like, 10 to 11 hour stint at a local LA hospital. And, you know, it's one of the nicer - probably the nicest local LA hospital, as well, and so to basically experience almost everything that happened in the episode, you know, from all the waiting in the lobby, you know? Almost every extra you see is someone that I saw and took note of, you know? - the teenage kid with the bandage head and sunglasses, you know, the druggie going through withdrawal vomiting, you know? It just truly felt like, you know, a modern, Hieronymus Bosch hell painting.

MOSLEY: All right. I got to talk just for a minute about Season 1 because we got to talk about this road rage situation that also came from a real thing that happened to you. You were in a parking lot, you got into it with somebody, you started following them for quite a distance.

LEE: Sure.

MOSLEY: And my question about this, 'cause you tell this story often, especially during the first run of the first season, what would you have done if that person had stopped?

LEE: I probably would have just sped away (laughter). I mean, the - and to clarify, the only reason it was such a long sort of stalking, let's call it, is because I was getting on the 10, one of the main highways in LA.

MOSLEY: In LA, yeah.

LEE: And it was bumper to bumper traffic. And so what started very heated then eventually, you're just sort of - it's not like the movies or the show where you're chasing. You're just sort of, like, stuck. And then, like, 30 minutes go by, and then you're like, OK, I'm not that angry anymore. And then, you know - but then it was sort of fortuitous. On that day, we were both going to the same exit, which was on the opposite side of town.

MOSLEY: So - OK.

LEE: So in my car, I'm just - I've lost interest. I'm listening to music, you know? I'm just, like, kind of, like, in a better mood. And I could tell that in his car, he was like, this psychopath is following me across bumper to bumper traffic through all of LA. And that is what fascinated me is that we're in our literal mechanical bubbles.

MOSLEY: Boxes.

LEE: And trapped in our own subjectivity, completely unaware of what the other person is thinking or feeling.

MOSLEY: You said that there's a piece of you in every character. And I want to talk about the character Danny for minute because he's full of rage, but rage is really only half of him. For the very first episode, he is failing at work. He's carrying his family. He's smiling throughout all of it. And then in Episode 3, at one of his lowest moments, he walks into this church, and there is music playing. They are singing, and it's actually the church that his ex girlfriend and her husband worship, and the husband is the pastor. And as the congregation begins singing, Danny falls apart. He starts to sing with them, and then he is kind of like the Holy Ghost. And he sings through his tears. You were part of a church that was similar to this. You're a musical person. You played the violin...

LEE: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...For many years. Did you play for church?

LEE: I did. Yeah, growing up, I attended - I moved around a lot, and, you know, every - I moved mostly up and down the Midwest, and, you know, every state in the Midwest, the Korean church is sort of the hub where just all Koreans interact. And even if you're not Christian, that's just become like the social fabric of the Korean community. So I attended Korean church my whole life. In junior high and high school, I started a leading praise team, singing and playing guitar.

You know, I think, especially in your teenage years, religion becomes a means as to how you're sort of trying to grapple with these existential questions. You may not have the language yet to really talk about these existential questions as necessarily I am now in my writing, but the spirit of it was there. And I think that that's why I think now, I'm in my writing constantly sort of approaching it from almost a spiritual standpoint, because, you know, I think, from a young age, I could - just had this feeling that, you know, this material world isn't really all there is. There's got to be something underneath it. And if there isn't then how do I wrestle with that?

MOSLEY: I read that you pretended to have the Holy Ghost at one point.

LEE: Yes. Yeah, that was at a - it was when I lived in San Antonio, and then...

MOSLEY: And how old were you about?

LEE: Oh, too old. I was like a senior in high school. Yeah. Yeah, there was, like, a summer retreat at - like, in rural Texas, and it was, like, kind of like a Pentecostal church, even though the church I attended was not Pentecostal. And it was extreme. Like, you stood in a line, and the pastor comes and touches your forehead and people fell over, fainted, started speaking in tongues.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

LEE: And then, you know, it's like, coming up to me and I'm getting nervous. And then, you know, the hand hits your forehead, and you almost convince yourself to start speaking in tongues.

MOSLEY: Did you feel it? Did you have an emotional release at all, or cry or just feel within you?

LEE: Not in that moment.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

LEE: I've definitely had those moments, like Danny's, at various points of worship. But in that moment, it felt very performative and almost like I was an impostor, you know? Like, I'm looking at everyone else, and, like, that seems genuine. And then here I am, like, I'm like, man, why can I speak in tongues? You know, did not get the Rosetta Stone for that one.

MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lee Sung Jin, creator, writer and director of the Netflix anthology series "Beef." The new season is nominated for 16 Emmys, including three for Lee himself. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BROTHERS OSBORNE SONG, "21 SUMMER")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today, I am talking with Lee Sung Jin, the creator of the Emmy-winning Netflix series "Beef." The new season is nominated for 16 Emmys and tells a story about love, class and blackmail at an exclusive country club, starring Oscar Isaac and Carey Mulligan. The first season followed two strangers whose road rage encounter spirals into an all-consuming feud.

There is something that you say almost in all of your interviews. You talk about this research that you read. And I had to go digging for it, and I actually found it. And you were pretty accurate with it. But you have mentioned this scientific belief that our inner voices are formed by how our caregivers talked to us when we were small.

LEE: Yes.

MOSLEY: And ever since I heard you say that I've been rethinking everything (laughter). And I wanted to know how your parents talked to you.

LEE: You know, I'm working through a lot of that in therapy, actually, right now. I love my parents. And I can't imagine their young adulthood moving to a foreign country.

MOSLEY: Immigrants, right?

LEE: Immigrants.

MOSLEY: Yeah, yeah.

LEE: Not really knowing the language. You know, my dad went to grad school at University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. And I moved here when I was 9 months old with my mom and dad and slept in the dorm. You know, it was a dorm room that we all lived in.

And I think that a lot of immigrant parents - and it's not just mine. Their parenting in that era, the '80s, was, like, to provide, to help your child assimilate and to really make sure that this move was worth it, that you're trying to give your child a better life than the one that you had. And so, I think, you know, there - I think it's a different love language than maybe what, like, modern Western culture is used to, where, you know, now it's like, gentle parenting. And you got to, like, you know, accept the child as they are and kind of continually make them feel safe and supported through, like, words of affirmation.

MOSLEY: Yeah. What did your parents do?

LEE: My dad was a professor of electrical and computer engineering. And he then worked for Samsung, which is why we moved back to Korea. And he actually designed Samsung's first supercomputer, which is extraordinary. And my mom, she was going to be a classical pianist but then gave it all up to raise my sister and me. So, you know, she still - she ended up, later in life, once my sister went to college, she got her master's in music, and so, you know, was able to sort of fulfill her dreams in that way.

MOSLEY: Highly accomplished people.

LEE: Yes, they are. For sure.

MOSLEY: So you were a straight-A student.

LEE: (Laughter) Yeah.

MOSLEY: Almost perfect SAT, or maybe you did.

LEE: Yes.

MOSLEY: And you played the violin. I mean, highly, highly, you know, just academically superior.

LEE: That was my parents, for sure. It was a lot of - your whole childhood was, like, you know, preparing to try and get into an Ivy League school. And so it was hours of violin practice every day. You know, I play tennis. I, you know, was, you know, self-studying for the PSATs, I remember, in, like - I want to say, like, sixth grade. And yeah, and it worked. I got into an Ivy League school.

MOSLEY: University of Pennsylvania, yeah.

LEE: Yeah. So, you know, I think the way they spoke to me makes sense with my inner monologue. I am very, like, you know, results-driven. And, you know, I just saw the Novak Djokovic trailer that came out this week. And hearing him talk about, like, tennis and stuff, I think the trailer is supposed to, like, highlight, like, oh, like, look how, like - how harsh he is on himself. And to me, I'm just like, oh, that's me.

MOSLEY: What did you see in him and yourself?

LEE: Just this drive for - to prove everyone wrong, this drive for excellence, this unrelenting work ethic to push yourself past your breaking point. And I think that's something that - I actually am glad that was instilled in me at a young age because I don't think I can, like, get through a season of "Beef" without that work ethic, you know?

MOSLEY: Our guest today is the creator, writer and director of "Beef" on Netflix. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF DAFT PUNK, PHARRELL WILLIAMS AND NILE RODGERS SONG, "GET LUCKY")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is Lee Sung Jin, the creator of the Netflix anthology series "Beef." The new season just earned 16 Emmy nominations, three of them for Lee himself for writing, directing and as executive producer. It's his second time nominated in all three categories, a first in Emmy history for an Asian television creator. Lee is also cowriting Marvel's upcoming X-Men film. And before "Beef," he spent nearly two decades writing for comedies like "It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia" and "Silicon Valley."

Your family moved a lot. You all moved - as you mentioned, you lived up and down the Midwest, in Texas and then up Minnesota. You go to UPenn. You graduate in economics, is that right? And then you decide, I don't want to do this anymore. And you moved to New York. And the first night you get there, your car is like - people steal everything except for an "Aladdin"...

LEE: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...DVD.

LEE: Yes.

MOSLEY: What were you planning to do there?

LEE: I thought maybe music. You know, I applied to so many music internships because I was so musical. That didn't really pan out. I remember there was this one forum back when internet forums were more of a thing where Jack Ponti, who is the guitarist for Bon Jovi, had just started a record label, and he posted that he was looking to hire interns. And I remember replying on that forum, sent my resume. And he was based in New Jersey, and I would drive out, and I would just, like, box CDs and I think some promotional materials. And I was able to leverage asking, like, hey, I don't mind being an intern, but is it OK if I create business cards of my own where I can, like, have my title be like, director of research?

MOSLEY: Oh.

LEE: And he was cool with it. So then I remember printing those out. And in New York, I didn't know anybody, so I was so alone. Like, I'm not exaggerating when I say I did not have a friend. And so I would Google where, like, the free events were that night. You know, there'd be some like - you know, Conde Nast would be having some, like, release party at the Hermes store.

MOSLEY: Yup.

LEE: And I would go get dressed up in my one suit with my little self-made business card. I would stand in line, and I would sneak into the party, and then I would eat the free food, and that would be the dinner for my day 'cause I was so poor. And then I would just, like, try to, like, rub elbows and hand out, like, my business card to everybody. But, like...

MOSLEY: How brave you were.

LEE: I think I was just desperate.

MOSLEY: OK, so you become an NBC page, which is a program that you get to give tours to tourists and things through 30 Rock. And this really amazing thing happens while you're a page. The head of comedy sees something that you wrote and says, like, you're super talented, gets you hooked up with an agent. You get an agent. You move to LA. Things get so tough for you while you're in LA, but you're still like, I'm going to do this. But at one point, it got so rough that you were sleeping on a hospital cot...

LEE: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...In a - yeah, in a friend's apartment.

LEE: Yeah. You know, I - my then writing partner and I went with sort of the fanciest agent and - who was like, you have to move out by upfronts. And so we gave our jobs two weeks notice and moved out here. And I didn't bring my bed 'cause I was like, oh, I'm going to be, like, a working writer, and I'll buy a bed, eventually. And just nothing happened. Like, couldn't get the agent to return our calls. You know, didn't really go out for any meetings. And suddenly, it dawned on me like, oh, I've made a huge mistake and had to start temping, you know? And I, in the meantime, needed a place to sleep. So my then roommate's girlfriend worked at a hospital, and she brought home a cot for me to sleep on. I slept on it for probably a year and a half.

MOSLEY: A year and a half.

LEE: Yeah, yeah, I don't recommend. You'll have, like, long time back issues. And, you know, was doing that for probably almost two years. The writers' strike also happened in 2008.

MOSLEY: 2008.

LEE: Yep. And then, right after the writers' strike, I was just so fortunate that Rob, Charlie and Glenn had "Always Sunny." I think they read a sample and asked for a meeting, and the meeting only lasted like 10 minutes. And I thought I for sure didn't get it. But then that changed my life.

MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lee Sung Jin, creator of the Netflix anthology series "Beef." He's up for three Emmys this year for writing, directing and as executive producer of the show's new season, which stars Oscar Isaac and Carey Mulligan. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF JULIAN LAGE GROUP'S "IOWA TAKEN")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and today I'm talking with Lee Sung Jin, the Emmy-winning creator, writer and director of the Netflix series "Beef." Jin has said there's a part of him in each character in "Beef," but he really identified with a character in the first season, played by Steven Yeun, named Danny, who was depressed and considered suicide. If you or someone you know is in crisis, the suicide hotline is available 24/7. Call or text the number 988. When we left off, we were talking about the two decades before "Beef" when Lee Sung Jin worked in the writing rooms of shows like "It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia," "Silicon Valley" and the animated series "Tuca & Bertie."

You got really good at what you call Upright Citizens Brigade-type comedy, which is, like, Tina Fey, "30 Rock," kind of zinger-type things. And this is kind of like you were doing the thing that you knew would work, but it - over time, it wasn't necessarily you. You just got good at mimicking, almost.

LEE: I mean, I was just speaking in tongues comedically.

MOSLEY: Yeah. Yes (laughter).

LEE: (Laughter) I'm just looking around at everyone else speaking in tongues, doing these rapid-fire jokes.

MOSLEY: Yep.

LEE: And I'm like, OK, let me do my version of that. But it did not come from a very soulful place at all. And I think - I ended up on a show for three years that, I think for a variety of reasons, was very, very, very bad for my mental health. And I think when you are, like, being stretched further and further away from who you really are, it's almost like a rubber band that's just stretching and stretching. You can feel it inside of you. You're like, this isn't me. This isn't me. And then, at some point, it's going to snap. And, you know, that's what happened after three years on that show is I snapped. And I - you know, that's when, you know, I kind of very - you know, that's where a lot of Danny comes from is sort of my brushes with suicide.

MOSLEY: December 13, 2013.

LEE: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and I ended up in the hospital, and, you know, there's this one thing that we wrote for Danny where he says - he's talking to Paul, his younger brother, and he was like, you know, rock bottom can be your trampoline. And we wrote that as sort of a joke, but it is very true. And, yeah, that rock bottom, for sure, was my trampoline. And started therapy for the very first time, started really reexamining everything in my life. And, you know, it was time to clean up the messy room, for sure.

MOSLEY: One thing that was surprising to me about you, though, OK, that work ethic also includes you read the negative things about yourself a lot.

LEE: (Laughter) I do.

MOSLEY: Is it true that you might - there's something you might have pinned, like a Reddit conversation or something like that you go back to?

LEE: Well, there's a - there was a harrowing experience in a writers' room years ago back in 2009 where, you know, I was - I think, yeah, I was the lone East Asian writer, and I had gone to the bathroom, come back, and in my email, one of the writers, they'd taken a photo of him doing a caricature of an East Asian where he was doing the slanty (ph) eyes, had kind of, like, pens as his buck teeth, and, you know, writers laughing around him.

LEE: And, you know, I just kind of laughed it off in the moment. You know, I don't think people really realize today how a lot of the racism that we speak of is so recent, you know? That is kind of, like, within a decade and a half, you know? And that's the thing I have favorited in my phone, where if I'm - if I feel like not working on a script or I feel like I've hit some sort of block, I will pull up my favorites folder, scroll to that one and just be reminded. Like, you know, that's what people thought of me when I was starting. You know, I was a diversity hire. That's the most anyone expected out of me.

MOSLEY: Why do you think that fuels you versus, like, praise?

LEE: I think I am a lot like Danny in Season 1 in some regards. You know, I think - I'm trying to get better about it. I think Danny is sort of my older self. You know, Danny's got a huge chip on his shoulder, and he just feels like everyone is against him or, you know, expecting the least out of him. And so he has this just drive to prove everybody wrong. And I think that that definitely is in me. And I think it's probably an amalgamation of so many things, you know.

MOSLEY: There was something you said in an interview that I felt like, oh, I'm glad that someone has said it because it's something I've been thinking about a lot for myself. You know, I spent a lot of my career - majority of my career in white spaces, and...

LEE: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Being, like, the only person of color, Black person at a table.

LEE: Yeah.

MOSLEY: And especially in that time period of, like, from 2000 to, like, 2010 or so, crazy stuff was said. And I would...

LEE: Insane.

MOSLEY: ...Laugh, you know, I would laugh, and I might say, no, that was wrong, but, like, I wasn't - I was still, like...

LEE: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Participating, maybe...

LEE: Hundred percent.

MOSLEY: ...Fawning even a bit.

LEE: Yes.

MOSLEY: And I do look back at myself, and when I relay it to my children, I do think, like, well, why was I doing that?

LEE: Yeah.

MOSLEY: But it was hearing you talk about that and - almost, like, as a survival mechanism. Like, you're of the thing. It just wasn't the time period to be assertive and saying. You know, even fear for going to HR. Like, no, I'm not going to be that person.

LEE: You could not go to HR...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

LEE: ...For things like that. And I think that's what I think a lot of the current generation sort of takes for granted sometimes is, like, you know, you look back in hindsight, and there's judgment being like, why didn't you - you just took that? Or, like, you know, and you're like, no, you don't understand. Like, this all had to happen the way it did to pave the way for now to be able to have a voice and, like, stand up and, like, be more vocal. But you - we needed the baby steps of, like, sort of, like, you know, carving out the path a little bit before you, like, put down the cement. And so it's hard 'cause, like, in the current climate, my self talk sometimes is, like, ashamed that I did that. But then I'm trying to, like, remind myself, like, yeah, in that context, like, that is the best that most of us could do is just clock it, internalize it, ruminate on it so that at the right time, we can express it and do something about it. But it's crazy the stuff that we all endured.

MOSLEY: Mm-hmm.

LEE: Absolutely insane.

MOSLEY: Well, I'm glad you continued.

LEE: Thank you. Likewise.

MOSLEY: And, you know, those writers' rooms, those were the breaking points, but you spent a whole life - I mean, we're calling - I'm using the name Lee Sung Jin, but you went by Sonny.

LEE: Yes.

MOSLEY: You came up with this name, Sonny in, like, sixth grade or something?

LEE: Yes, in sixth grade, yeah.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

LEE: Yeah. I just moved back from Korea. I went to elementary school in Korea, and I moved to Minnesota in sixth grade, and, you know, I had a bit of an accent, and, you know, my legal name is Sung Jin Lee. In Korea, you put the surname first. And the teacher, every day with attendance, would just add consonants. Like, every day, was a new...

MOSLEY: An extra one, huh?

LEE: Yeah. I was like, I don't know where that Q came from, but - and I was just brutally made fun of, you know, I'm just bullied. And one day, I was just staring at an assignment, and, you know, that's that name section with the line. And I was just like, you know what? I'm tired of this. I'm going to go by Sonny. And I just wrote S-O-N-N-Y. And I told my friends, my family. I'm like, this is what I go by now. And it just kind of stuck. And it stuck for a very long time. Like, I didn't go back to Lee Sung Jin until - I think it was "Tuca & Bertie." I was writing for an animated show on Netflix. I want to say that was maybe 2018 that I went back.

But the reason I went back was it is just full circle, where I was, at that time, probably - what? - 37 years old. And I was getting coffee at a local coffee shop. And, you know, they call your name based on your credit card name.

MOSLEY: Yes.

LEE: And again - just like the teacher in sixth grade - butchered my name, and these two 30-something women next to me just started laughing. And I found myself hunched over, grabbing my coffee and food and just kind of slinking out of there, ashamed. And I was like, I'm a grown adult. Like, why am I doing that? Why am I slouched over like I'm in sixth grade again? And, you know, luckily, Lisa Hanawalt, who show ran "Tuca & Bertie" - I think we had already done the credits for that show, and I explained to her the reason why I wanted to change it. And she graciously went through some extra steps to allow me to go by Lee Sung Jin that year.

MOSLEY: In September, you could be the most awarded Asian writer/director in primetime Emmy history. And I'm just curious if this is something that you have been really sitting with and thinking through - that you will make history. You have already made history to a certain extent. But all of these nominations put you in another category, and you're being yourself doing it.

LEE: You know, I haven't really processed it. Yeah. I don't even think I've really processed Season 1 awards, really. I honestly, just two weeks ago, took them out of their boxes and put them on a shelf.

MOSLEY: Where had you been keeping them?

LEE: They've just been sitting, like, in storage (laughter). So I haven't really processed any of it, and maybe - I think that's a good thing. I think it can be kind of distracting, honestly, sometimes. I think there's just a lot - been a lot of things lately, you know, most of which was my daughter. Just seeing her is the most life-affirming thing ever and getting the privilege of getting to tell stories and having it connect on a deeper level. So yeah. I think, in that sense, it's nice to feel seen and accepted. I think that's all anyone's trying to do.

MOSLEY: What did your parents think of "Beef"?

LEE: Oh, they - they're so proud, you know? They're, like, the biggest "Beef" fans. Yeah. You know, but, you know, at the same time, like - it's funny. Like, my dad texted me after watching the show - the season - and he was like, you know, the last scene was too long. You should have cut here and probably shortened this shot, and it would have had more impact. I was like, Dad, it's on the platform. I can't...

MOSLEY: Go back and edit it now.

LEE: (Laughter) Yeah. Yeah, that is truly unhelpful (laughter).

MOSLEY: But sometimes parents can give good advice. They do.

LEE: Yes.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

LEE: Yes. But, you know, to talk about the inner monologue, you know, it is - I am thankful for that because, like, on set, like, if it weren't for that inner monologue, a lot of things would be slipping through the cracks.

MOSLEY: Lee Sung Jin, thank you so much.

LEE: Thank you. Thanks so much.

MOSLEY: Lee Sung Jin is the creator of the Netflix series "Beef." The latest season is up for 16 Emmy nominations.

Coming up, TV critic David Bianculli reviews the Apple TV series "Lucky." This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MARIO ADNET'S "VAIDOSO")

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. Marissa Stapley's crime novel "Lucky" was featured five years ago as a pick for actress Reese Witherspoon's book club. Now, Apple TV presents a new seven-part crime drama based on the novel, and Witherspoon is one of its executive producers. Anya Taylor-Joy of "The Queen's Gambit" stars in the title role, and the series features some very impressive costars. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.

DAVID BIANCULLI: The new Apple TV series, "Lucky," is a crime drama that starts in mid-caper and almost dares you to keep up. The title character, Lucky, is a very shrewd, resourceful con woman. She's played by Anya Taylor-Joy, who showed just as much fiery intelligence as the chess prodigy in "The Queen's Gambit" and in several standout roles since then.

When we meet Lucky, she's out on the town in Las Vegas at Caesars Palace, celebrating with her husband, Cary, played by Drew Starkey. They're celebrating because they've just absconded with almost $10 million in cash, gotten a room at the casino and made plans to leave the country the next morning.

But their crime is complicated because of some respective parental issues. Lucky's father, who is now in federal prison, skimmed that money from a powerful criminal family. He told Lucky where the money was hidden and to go get it. All her life, Lucky had been coached by her father to con people and trust no one, like Tatum O'Neal in "Paper Moon." That's her issue.

Her husband's issue - the crime family from whom they stole the money are his parents, a ruthless couple determined to recover the money for themselves. The night Lucky and Cary grab the money and check into their room, he's happy, but she's fidgeting with a cigarette lighter and obviously nervous.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LUCKY")

DREW STARKEY: (As Cary Masterson) You kept your dad's lighter?

ANYA TAYLOR-JOY: (As Luciana Lucky Armstrong) Yes.

STARKEY: (As Cary Masterson) You OK?

TAYLOR-JOY: (As Luciana Lucky Armstrong) Ask me again tomorrow.

STARKEY: (As Cary Masterson) Hey, come on. Come on, come on, come on. Well, the hard part's over. We pulled it off.

TAYLOR-JOY: (As Luciana Lucky Armstrong) I don't know. Something feels off.

STARKEY: (As Cary Masterson) Well, it's because you're hardwired to feel that way.

TAYLOR-JOY: (As Luciana Lucky Armstrong) Yes. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

STARKEY: (As Cary Masterson) Hey, look. Everything is going according to plan.

TAYLOR-JOY: (As Luciana Lucky Armstrong) Until it isn't.

STARKEY: (As Cary Masterson) You know what I think? You know what I'm going to say?

TAYLOR-JOY: (As Luciana Lucky Armstrong) Mm hmm.

STARKEY: (As Cary Masterson) You got to get him out of your head.

TAYLOR-JOY: (As Luciana Lucky Armstrong) Yeah, maybe.

STARKEY: (As Cary Masterson) What's he saying?

TAYLOR-JOY: (As Luciana Lucky Armstrong) That there's something I'm not seeing.

BIANCULLI: That lighter, by the way, is a recurring motif in this series. More than once, it's the secret weapon used by Lucky to get out of a tough situation. And the sound of the lighter being flicked even opens the theme song for this series, a new song written and performed by Fiona Apple that's one of the most energetic and perfectly suited TV theme songs since "The Sopranos."

And its energy is appropriate because the first half of the first episode of "Lucky" rolls out like one long chase sequence. Lucky was right. There was something she wasn't seeing, and she soon finds herself on the run. She's pursued by a steely and single-minded FBI agent, reminiscent of Tommy Lee Jones pursuing Harrison Ford in "The Fugitive," except this agent is a woman played by Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor. She was unforgettable in "Lovecraft Country" and is very memorable in this, too. Here she is descending upon Caesars Palace to begin the hunt.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LUCKY")

AUNJANUE ELLIS-TAYLOR: (As Billie Rand) Mr. Barr. I'm Special Agent Rand. We spoke on the phone.

STEVE OLSON: (As David Barr) Yes, Agent Rand.

ELLIS-TAYLOR: (As Billie Rand) So this is Agent Cruz. I'm going to need you to take him to your security, let him have access to your CCTV, facial recognition system, everything for the last 24 hours.

OLSON: (As David Barr) We have strict limitations on the use of that software.

ELLIS-TAYLOR: (As Billie Rand) Says who?

OLSON: (As David Barr) Says the state of Nevada. We can only access it to detect and identify known cheats and those who have committed gaming crimes or crimes on a casino property.

ELLIS-TAYLOR: (As Billie Rand) Or crimes on a casino property.

OLSON: (As David Barr) Well then you know.

ELLIS-TAYLOR: (As Billie Rand) Cruz?

ARTUR ZAI BARRERA: (As Diego Cruz) Yes, ma'am.

ELLIS-TAYLOR: (As Billie Rand) I want footage from those cameras there. Everything for 4 p.m. yesterday. I want a room number in 5 minutes. If Mr. Barr or any of his employees give you any problems, handcuff him and put him in the back of the van.

BARRERA: (As Diego Cruz) Yes, ma'am.

ELLIS-TAYLOR: (As Billie Rand) Thank you, gentlemen. Ready?

BIANCULLI: Watching Agent Rand and Lucky track and evade each other is great fun. Agent Rand is a force of nature, and Taylor-Joy's Lucky is TV's toughest, smartest female fugitive since Juno Temple's Dot on Season 5 of "Fargo." Agent Rand and Lucky could carry this story alone. But about halfway into the premiere episode, the TV series ups the ante considerably. Jonathan Tropper, who adapted Marissa Stapley's novel for TV and wrote the opener, waits until then to unveil the actors playing the parents. Lucky's dad is played by the always watchable Timothy Olyphant and Cary's mom is played by, what a treat, Annette Bening. She's fabulous. And when, as the mom Priscilla, she catches up with Lucky, the energy between those two is electric.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LUCKY")

ANNETTE BENING: (As Priscilla Matheson) Where's my money?

TAYLOR-JOY: (As Luciana Lucky Armstrong) It's not your money.

BENING: (As Priscilla Matheson) Huh. You and I never got along. Why is that?

TAYLOR-JOY: (As Luciana Lucky Armstrong) Because I never liked you.

BIANCULLI: "Lucky" is seven episodes in total. The beauty of dramatic mini series and limited series is that even major characters can die at any time. It's the secret sauce of shows like "Fargo," and "Lucky" maintains that high level of tension and unpredictability. It's a wild ride, as aggressively entertaining as that theme song by Fiona Apple. Speaking of which, let's end with a taste of that. Consider yourself lucky.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HORNS OF A BULL")

FIONA APPLE: (Singing) I pay attention to the men behind the curtain. I was born in the horns of a bull.

MOSLEY: David Bianculli reviewed the new Apple TV series "Lucky."

If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with New Yorker staff writer Jia Tolentino, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page @thisisfreshair. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and to get our producers' recommendations on what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.

(SOUNDBITE OF JOHN SCOFIELD'S "A GO GO")

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.