Angela Lansbury reflects on her great performances on stage and screen

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. The 79th annual Tony Awards are this Sunday, honoring the best of Broadway from the previous season of stage plays and musicals. To note the occasion, we're revisiting interviews with two dynamic Tony-winning stars from Broadway's past. We'll hear from Angela Lansbury, a six-time Tony recipient, including for the musicals "Mame," "Gypsy" and "Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber Of Fleet Street." And we'll start with Alan Cumming, who won a Tony for his role as the emcee in the revival of "Cabaret." Both of them had a major impact on the New York stage, yet both came from the U.K. - Angela Lansbury from England, and Alan Cumming from Scotland.

Alan Cumming was born in 1965 and has been acting in television, movies and the theater since the 1980s. As an actor, he's somewhat of a chameleon, shifting looks and accents to fit the occasion and the role. He played Hamlet on stage, a filmmaker in the Spice Girls movie, and the desk clerk in Stanley Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut." He played Eli Gold in TV's "Th e Good Wife" and "The Good Fight," the blue-skinned Nightcrawler in "X2: X-Men United" and another blue-skinned character in the world of animation, providing the voice of Gutsy Smurf.

And while he continues to be involved in the stage - he won a second Tony in 2022 as a producer of the musical "A Strange Loop" - he's now having lots of fun on television. On the Emmy-winning Peacock reality competition series "The Traitors," Alan Cumming hosts a group of guests assembled to solve a mystery - which of those among them are secretly working against them? This show is set in a castle in Scotland, and Cumming, as the host, leans into the outrageousness of it all. He wears kilts and flashy costumes and whenever talking to the competitors on "The Traitors," turns his Scottish brogue up to 11, as in this scene from the show's most recent season.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE TRAITORS")

ALAN CUMMING: (Imitating Scottish accent) The first duty of society is justice, said Alexander Hamilton. And so here we are. Don't throw away your shot, players. The tear-stained pages of traitors' history are filled with the blood of the innocent at this table. And what a triumph it would be if you caught a traitor on the opening page. Look around you. Who at the table has your back, and who would sooner stab you in it?

BIANCULLI: At the Tony's this year, the most nominated musicals are "The Lost Boys" and "Schmigadoon!" each of which is up for 12 awards. Alan Cumming isn't in that Broadway production, but he did star in the original TV version of "Schmigadoon!" in 2021 on television. In the first season, which featured the same plot and characters now performed on Broadway, he played Mayor Menlove. And in the 2022 sequel, a take on darker musicals that was subtitled "Welcome to Schmicago," he played Dooley Blight, a butcher with a tragic past. It was a clear, loving homage to the title character of "Sweeney Todd," and Alan Cumming is so good in it, I hope he gets to star in the next official "Sweeney Todd" revival. Listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

CUMMING: (As Dooley Blight, singing) There was a butcher who had a wife and daughter and a rich man who led them all like lambs to the slaughter. He tried to take the butcher's wife. When she refused, he took her life, blamed the butcher for the crime. And while he was doing time, his daughter came of age, forced to perform upon the stage. And to be clear, in this scenario, the butcher is me. But the rich man truly will pay for his sins, and this time Dooley will be the one who wins, for there's a debt that has yet to be repaid. So my course is set for the blood and the blade and that death, sweet death that will bring relief from the pain and the passion and the guilt and the grim. I'll heed the call. Kill them all.

BIANCULLI: Alan Cumming, of course, already has killed in one musical revival. On stage and in the movies, Joel Grey had originated the role of the Berlin emcee at the Kit Kat Club, a den of debauchery surrounded by the rise of the Nazis in 1929 and 1930. He was great in that role - iconic, even. Yet Alan Cumming has made it his own. His "Cabaret" revival originated at the Donmar Warehouse in England in 1993 and came to Broadway five years later. Sam Mendes directed, Rob Marshall provided the choreography, and Natasha Richardson co-starred as Sally Bowles, the role played in the original 1966 Broadway production and 1972 film by Liza Minnelli.

Years later, he appeared in a revival of the revival, opposite such very diverse, yet equally dazzling Sallys as Michelle Williams and Emma Stone. Let's hear how Alan Cumming sounded in the 2014 Roundabout Theatre production, the same company that had produced the 1998 Tony Award-winning production.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSICAL, "CABARET")

CUMMING: (Singing) Meine damen und herren, mesdames et messieurs, ladies and gentlemen. Guten abend, bon soir, good evening. Wie geht's? Comment ca va? Do you feel good? Yeah, I bet you do. Ich bin euer confrencier. Je suis votre compere. I am your host. Und sage willkommen, bienvenue, welcome.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

TERRY GROSS: Alan Cumming, welcome back to FRESH AIR. And congratulations. You're so wonderful in the show. It's so terrific.

CUMMING: Thank you, Terry.

GROSS: Thank you. Thank you for coming. You've said, I think, that this revival was your birthday present to yourself. What does that mean? Did you initiate the idea of reviving it again?

CUMMING: No. No I didn't, but it was Sam Mendes who called me up a few years ago, and - I mean, there's been sort of various attempts to redo it or to put it on since it ended. I mean, I finished - I did it a for a year, from '98 to '99, and it actually finished I think in 2004 on Broadway. But anyway, so a few years ago, Sam said, you know, I think it's a good time, kind of the rights are going to be up, and so therefore someone else will do it, and, you know, maybe - and the estate wants us to do our production again.

And I just sort of thought it would be - and the thing about the birthday is that I'm 49, and so I'll be 50 in January, January 27th next year, and so in my 50th year I am singing and dancing on - in a Broadway musical, and I'm dancing a kick line with, you know, girls who are 24. And so that was kind of the birthday present to myself, that I would be hitting 50, doing things that I couldn't do when I was, you know, 25.

GROSS: Oh, that is nice. You couldn't kick like that, or you just didn't have the opportunity?

CUMMING: Oh, my God. I was so out of shape and unfit when I was 25. And I kind of - and I think even when I did it 15 years ago, I wasn't as fit as I am now.

GROSS: So why do you love doing the role?

CUMMING: Well, I mean, just on a day-to-day - going to work and doing that, it's such fun. It's, you know, so kind of energetic, and it just takes up every single element of being an actor. It's - your body is used to its capacity both, you know, physically, vocally and emotionally, as well. But also in a kind of larger way, I think it's a really important show in that the reason it's done again - the reason we're doing it again is that it has something to say.

You know, it's about the rise of Nazism and the fact that if you're not incredibly vigilant, prescient of some kind, it can slowly creep up and take over. And I think that the way that the show is, like, fun, and oh, it's sexy, and hilarious, and - and then you slowly - it slowly goes dark, you as an audience member have kind of become complicit in that, and that sort of mirrors the way that you see Nazism creeping in and people think, oh, it'll be fine, don't worry, nothing's - you know, it'll go away. And then slowly it doesn't, and it's too late.

GROSS: I would like you to describe your character physically - what you're wearing, what your hair looks like.

CUMMING: Ha. Well, initially - I have jet black hair right now, which is not natural, Terry, I'll confess.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: And so I have jet black hair. So I have, you know, late 1920s kind of floppy on top, short at the back and the sides. And the first costume I wear is, I wear a leather coat, but I shortly take that off, and I've got this - I've kind of like a black dinner suit - trousers, but they're cut at the knees, a pair of big combat boots and this kind of strappy thing, kind of like suspenders, you know, almost like I'm topless, but I've got a suspender thing with a little bowtie at my chest, at my - what do you call that bit in the middle? The sternum. And then it's almost like a cantilever system to hike up my manhood, if you will.

GROSS: Yes, your manhood is kind of like italicized in the (laughter)...

CUMMING: It's in bold.

GROSS: It's in bold letters, yes (laughter).

CUMMING: It's sort of like a Wonderbra for the male junk.

BIANCULLI: Alan Cumming speaking with Terry Gross about playing the emcee for the third time in a 2014 revival of "Cabaret." We'll hear more of Terry's conversation with Alan Cumming after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, we're celebrating the Tony Awards this Sunday by listening back to Terry's 2014 interview with Alan Cumming, who won a Tony for his 1998 performance of the Emcee in "Cabaret." Cumming starred as the Emcee three times - in a 1993 London production, in 1998 on Broadway and again in 2014. They all were directed by Sam Mendes.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: What is your take on the host, the Emcee that you play, and the club, the Kit Kat Klub that you're in? Do you have a backstory for him in your mind?

CUMMING: I'll tell you my sort of very slim backstory. He was a rent boy, a boy from the streets of Berlin, who then kind of, you know, started working this club and was kind of funny. And so he got - kind of as he got a bit older, got a job. And this - and the Kit Kat Klub is basically, you know, a den of iniquity. It's got a little show, but there's kind of, you know, sex going on. There's drugs going on. It's a very low-life kind of place. So that's basically all my story for this man.

He used to be - you know, he has a background as a sex worker who then becomes - who can sing a bit. And I don't know his name. I don't know where - you know, I don't - actually don't think that's important. I don't worry about that because there is a larger, broader, more overreaching thing about this character. He's kind of like this - he guides the audience. He's like a puppeteer almost or a - sort of a pied piper, if you like, who takes the audience on this journey, kind of tells them what to think at certain times, guides them into certain things and then ultimately, because he's got their trust, can betray that trust or also make them worry for him and for what's going on in the show. So it's almost like a - sort of a Brechtian character of standing outside the story and commenting on it as it's happening.

GROSS: You've portrayed this character in three separate versions of this...

CUMMING: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Sam Mendes production - first, when you were 28 years old in 1993, then when you were 33 years old in 1998, and now when you're 49 years old in 2014. And...

CUMMING: And next time.

GROSS: (Laughter) And I've seen the new production, and I've seen excerpts of both of the other productions. And there's things that are very similar. One of the differences is that, you know, you've gotten older, and I think that changes the character. You know, the rent-boy-turned-emcee in this kind of seedy club at age 28 is different from that same character at age 49 'cause that character hasn't made it out of that club (laughter).

CUMMING: Yeah.

GROSS: Still there at age 49. So in that sense, he becomes kind of even darker.

CUMMING: I think that's absolutely true. I think this production of the production is darker, partly because I'm older and because this sort of sex element of the show, the sensationalist - the thing that in 1998, when we came to America, was so shocking and took up so much of people's perception of the whole show was this, you know, depiction of sexual freedom and hedonism and gay sex and bisexuality and all sorts of things. That, I think, in a way, took over a little too much. And now I think, you know, partly because of that production but partly because the world has changed, that is still an element. It's still fun. It's still very much part of what the story's about, but it doesn't overshadow everything. And also, it has allowed the kind of darkness to come out a little bit more.

GROSS: You know, in speaking about the sexuality of this production, it's sexualized in a different way than, say, the movie "Cabaret," which I think a lot of people are familiar with. In the movie version of "Cabaret," Joel Grey starred in the role of the Emcee, of the host. And I think he played it kind of - he's great in it. And I think he played it kind of like a ringmaster in a circus of sexual deviants. And I think deviants is what they would have been called at the time. I'm trying to use a word from the period. And you play it like you are sexually seducing us into your kind of debauched world.

(LAUGHTER)

CUMMING: I mean, I feel like - I mean, I do feel that. I feel like I'm saying - you know, the gesture I do at the very beginning of the show is my finger. I am going, come here, come here, come here. And that's, I think, a sort of overriding metaphor for what I think that character does. And he's going, come on, come on. You know you want to, and it's going to be fun. And then, of course - and the audience does want to, and they do come. And then, of course, that's when they become complicit in the whole horror.

GROSS: So the character that you play in "Cabaret" is very sexually ambiguous, I mean in terms of sexual orientation - gay, bisexual - who knows (laughter)?

CUMMING: Yeah.

GROSS: Into everything is, I think (laughter)...

CUMMING: Yeah.

GROSS: Whatever - he wants it. You came out as bisexual, I think, the same year that "Cabaret" was revived in the United States, in 1998, with you starring in it. And you've been married for how long to - you have a husband.

CUMMING: I mean, I have a husband. I've been married to him for - hang on - since 2007, so seven years.

GROSS: Right. So did you time coming out with the production of "Cabaret"?

CUMMING: It was all a huge press campaign.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: It was all a massive Machiavelli plot.

GROSS: Clever (laughter).

CUMMING: No, I...

GROSS: That's the point of sexuality, actually.

(LAUGHTER)

CUMMING: Power.

GROSS: Yeah.

CUMMING: It kind of is. What I think you're getting at - I'll give you a little press here that I hope will answer your question. I've always felt I was bisexual. I used to be married to a woman. Before that, I'd had a relationship with a man. I then had another relationship with a women. And then I - since then, I've had, you know, relationships with men. So I've - but I still feel - I still would define myself as bisexual, partly because I - that's how - what I feel, but also because I think it's important to - I think that sexuality in this country especially is very - seen as a very black-and-white thing. And I think we should encourage the gray, you know. I mean, I don't kind of go around in my life thinking, oh, my God, I'm going to have to have sex with a woman soon because I said I was bisexual.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: That's just - I just - that's what I feel inside. It's like saying you're straight or you're gay or you're - it's just what you are. And whatever you're doing in your life is almost - it runs obviously parallel, but it's kind of secondary to how you are inside. And so that's how I've always felt, and I still do, even though, you know, I'm very happily married to a really amazing man, and I wish to be so for the rest of my life.

The other thing is that the coming-out thing, in 1998, when I came to America, there was such a huge explosion of interest in this show and in me. And I hadn't really - you know, I was kind of well-known in Britain, but I hadn't really ever discussed my sexuality in a public way like that. And because of playing this character and all the kind of slight, you know, puritanical shock waves it was sending around America, a lot of people were just constantly, constantly, constantly asking me about it.

And so I decided to take matters into my own hand. And I did an interview and a cover story for Out Magazine, and I thought that was a good forum for it to be discussed calmly and adultly. And so I did that. So it was kind of as a result of all the speculation and - but it was really funny. I remember people saying, so - the first question in an interview for some, like, you know, weighty tome would be, so are you gay?

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: And I would go, why? Do you fancy me?

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: And then they'd go, oh, no, just someone in my office was asking. And I was like, oh, really? Well, you know, it just - I thought, really? Is that the most important thing? And sometimes it is the most important thing because people can't - if people don't have a black-and-white answer, they can't get beyond that. And so you have to kind of - I think you've just got to get it out the way, and that's what I did.

And it wasn't like I - it's one of those things. When you become famous and people are more interested in your personal life often than your work, it's a weird thing 'cause you think, oh, I seem to be sleeping with more boys now. Should I do a press release?

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: You know, it's a really difficult one to know when to announce.

BIANCULLI: Alan Cumming speaking with Terry Gross in 2014. He starred as the Emcee in "Cabaret" three times - in a 1993 London production, in 1998, where he won a Tony for his performance, and again in a 2014 revival. Coming up, we'll hear more from Alan Cumming, and we'll hear from another world-class Tony Award winner, Angela Lansbury. She earned six Tony Awards over her lifetime, including for her performances as Mama Rose in the Broadway production of "Gypsy" and the pie shop owner, Mrs. Lovett, in "Sweeney Todd." More after a break. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSICAL, "CABARET")

CUMMING: (As Emcee) So you see, everyone in Berlin has a perfectly marvelous roommate. Some people have two people.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Lulu, singing) Beedle-dee, deedle-dee, dee (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Bobby, singing) Beedle-dee, deedle-dee, dee.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) Beedle-dee, deedle-dee, deedle-dee, deedle-dee, dee.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) Two ladies.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) Two ladies.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) And I'm the only man, yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) I like it.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) They like it.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) This two-for-one. Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) Two ladies.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) Two ladies.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) Und he's the only man.

CUMMING: (As Emcee) Ja.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Lulu, singing) He likes it.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Bobby, singing) We like it.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) Beedle-dee, dee, dee.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Lulu and Bobby, singing) This two-for-one.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Bobby, singing) I do the cooking.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Lulu, singing) Und I make the bed.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) I go out daily to earn our daily bread. But we've one thing in common.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Lulu, singing) He.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) She.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Bobby, singing) Und me.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Lulu, singing) The key.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) Beedle-dee, dee.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Bobby, singing) The key.

CUMMING: (As Emcee, singing) Beedle-dee, dee. The key.

ALAN CUMMING, UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Emcee, Lulu and Bobby, singing) Beedle-dee, deedle-dee, deedle-dee, dee.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. If you're just joining us, we're celebrating the Tony Awards this Sunday by listening back to Terry's 2014 interview with Alan Cumming, who won a Tony for his 1998 performance of the emcee in "Cabaret." Cumming starred as the emcee three times, in a 1993 London production, on Broadway in 1998 and again in 2014. They all were directed by Sam Mendes. Here's Cumming singing the song "Money" from the 1998 performance of "Cabaret."

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSICAL, "CABARET")

CUMMING: (As emcee, singing) Money makes the world go around, the world go around, the world go around. Money makes the world go around. It makes the world go around. A mark, a yen, a buck or a pound, a buck or a pound, a buck or a pound is all that makes the world go around. That clinking, clanking sound can make the world go around.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As Cabaret girls, singing) Money, money, money, money. Money, money, money, money. Money, money, money, money, money, money. Money, money, money, money, money, money.

CUMMING: (As emcee, singing) If you happen to be rich and you feel like a night's entertainment, you can pay for a gay escapade. If you happen to be rich and alone and you need a companion, you can ring ting-a-ling for the maid. If you happen to be rich and you find you are left by your lover, though you moan and you groan quite a lot. You can take it on the chin, call a cab and begin to recover on your 14-karat yacht. Money makes the world go around, the world go around, the world go around. Money makes the world go around. Of that we can be sure, on being poor.

ALAN CUMMING AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As emcee and Cabaret girls, singing) Money, money, money. Money, money, money. Money, money, money. Money, money, money. Money, money, money, money, money, money. Money, money, money, money, money, money.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: That's Alan Cumming singing "Money" from the 1998 cast recording of "Cabaret," and he's starring now in the new revival of it. I really do love the way you sing.

CUMMING: Thank you.

GROSS: And I want to hear how you prepared to sing for this role. But before we talk about that, I want to play you something that John Kander had to say. I interviewed John Kander, who wrote the music, Fred Ebb wrote the lyrics for "Cabaret." And I asked him what he did before composing the music for "Cabaret" and what he listened to. And here's what he told me.

JOHN KANDER: For "Cabaret," I listened to a lot of German jazz and vaudeville music, also the late '20s and very early '30s, and then promptly forgot about it. It sounds like a very kind of crude way of doing research, but it works for me. You listen and you listen and you listen and then put it away and don't think about it anymore. And I have this absolute belief that the styles of the music that you've been listening to seep into your unconscious and come out in your own language.

GROSS: And that was John Kander on FRESH AIR in 2003. So John Kander said that, you know, he listened to all this music and then just let it seep in, as opposed to actually thinking about it when he was composing.

CUMMING: Yeah.

GROSS: What did you listen to? And did you have that attitude too, that it would just naturally seep in?

CUMMING: I'm a big believer in seepage.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: I am. I really am. The first time around, I read a lot of stuff about the Weimar, of cabarets and just generally the history of that time. What was great when we did it in London the first time was that Stephen Spender, who was one of the chums of Christopher Isherwood and W. H. Auden and those boys who were, you know, in Berlin at that time, he was still alive then. He came into rehearsal to ask and to sort of, you know, talk to us and we got to ask him questions. So that was amazing, that someone who was actually there. And I said - it was so funny 'cause they said, you know, just be very respectful. Don't, you know, stay off the whole sex thing, blah, blah, blah. So we were asking questions and I could tell we were getting along. And I said, so Stephen, you boys from Oxbridge, you didn't really go across there to kind of chronicle the surge of fascism and the change of the sort. You really went in there to get shagged, didn't you? You just went to get boys.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: And he was like, of course, we did. Yes, of course.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: And I just - I love that idea that this kind of amazing period of history has been chronicled so amazingly by Christopher Isherwood and many other people. But, in this case, by him, was actually, you know, a happy accident because they really just went there. They were from England, you know, puritanical, shameful England. And they went to Berlin, where you could have sex with people all the time and go to dirty bars, and no one would know. So that was a key for me into getting into this role and understanding what it was like in that time.

GROSS: So you've met and performed with Liza Minnelli?

CUMMING: Yes. Liza.

GROSS: What did she mean to you before you met her?

CUMMING: I mean, it's hard to - she almost - it's almost like she was like a movie star from a long, long time ago, like, the kind of - like a silent movie star or something. She had that kind of - there's a sort of mist swirling around her. And I'd seen the movie of "Cabaret" and I just, I - it was more like a lot of the thing - it's hard to describe it. It's more like I was aware of the effect, the effect she had on the world and on people, rather than knowing that much about her. You see what I mean?

It wasn't - till I was 30 I didn't really - I've never been to America. I, you know, was aware of American culture and things in Britain, but I didn't ever sort of engage in it fully because I don't know why, I just didn't. And then, of course, when I met Liza, she came into my dressing room with Fred Ebb. And I was in this tiny dressing room, it was, like, kind of size of a shoebox and she came in and gave me a hug and said, Alan, I want to be your friend forever, which is such a darling thing to say. And then I saw Fred, I went oh, Fred. And when I finished talking to Fred, I realized that Liza had pushed herself against the wall and had her face in my wet towel, which was hanging on a hook on the wall in order for me 'cause the room was so small, in order for me to talk to Fred.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: And I went, oh, Liza, you're squashed into my towel. And she's like, Alan, I'd be squashed into your towel forever for you. She just...

(LAUGHTER)

CUMMING: She's just the most lovely, hilarious person. And I - and so I've been doing these concerts with her and stuff and just I - now I just think lovely Liza. And we have a real laugh. And I think we just get on. I don't know why. We just have a really great understanding of each other. And...

GROSS: Did she give you any advice about "Cabaret"?

CUMMING: Well, I can't really say it's on the radio.

GROSS: That sounds good (laughter).

CUMMING: It's more just a kind of - like when she came to see "Macbeth" - the "Macbeth" I did last summer - or last two summers - she said this thing, which is a really great - I actually really love it. I love this saying. I'll just do - I'll paraphrase it. But she says, well, she, you know, just before I was about to go on, I was really terrified. She went, darling, take no prisoners and F - bleep - the wounded.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CUMMING: And I think that's great. I mean obviously, not literally. But as a, go get 'em and just, you know, don't let anything hold you back.

GROSS: Right.

CUMMING: It's a great sort of way of thinking about performing and I'm always a big - I'm a big believer in that you just have to dive off the cliff, and so is Liza.

BIANCULLI: Alan Cumming speaking with Terry Gross in 2014. After a break, another Tony Award winner, Angela Lansbury. She won six Tony Awards over her lifetime, including for her performances as Mama Rose in the Broadway production of "Gypsy" and the pie shop owner Mrs. Lovett in "Sweeney Todd." We'll listen back to Terry's 1980 interview with Lansbury in which she discusses playing Mrs. Lovett and what it was like to work closely with Stephen Sondheim. This is FRESH AIR.

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. In honor of the Tony Awards this Sunday, let's continue our celebration of Tony Award winners we love. Angela Lansbury delivered unforgettable performances for her starring roles in the Broadway musicals "Mame," "Gypsy" and "Sweeney Todd." Her work onstage earned her five Tony Awards, plus a lifetime achievement Tony Award in 2022. Lansbury, who was born in 1925, died in 2022 at age 96. And while a legend on the stage, she conquered other media as well.

She starred as Jessica Fletcher on the CBS mystery series "Murder, She Wrote" for 12 years. On film, she appeared in the 1944 movie "Gaslight" when she was only 19, and provided the voice of Mrs. Potts, singing the title song to the 1991 animated movie "Beauty And The Beast." In 1979, the Stephen Sondheim musical "Sweeney Todd" swept the Tony Awards with eight wins, including best musical and a best actress award for Lansbury. The show was about a murderous barber in Victorian London. Lansbury played Mrs. Lovett, Sweeney Todd's accomplice. She baked his victims into pies.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

TERRY GROSS: I wonder what the first things were they told you about it to explain what the show would be like.

ANGELA LANSBURY: Well, they took it for granted that I knew the legend, because coming from England originally, I know all about Sweeney Todd. When I say I know all about Sweeney Todd, I know that he was almost a Grand Guignol character that was sung about. And little doggerel rhymes were written about, you know, Sweeney Todd will get you if you don't watch out. He's a character almost like Jack the Ripper in English folklore. And he turns up and people quote his name all the time.

GROSS: This is the third musical that Stephen Sondheim had a contribution to. Of course, he wrote this. But he did the lyrics for "Gypsy," which you starred in.

LANSBURY: Yes. It's the third time I've worked with him, actually.

GROSS: Is he the kind of composer who will sit down at the piano with you and sing his songs for you to give you an idea of what he had in his mind?

LANSBURY: Absolutely. Steve always auditions all his own work. And the thing he loves to do when he has a new song, he wants you to come over and hear it. And he'll - when he's got a few, he'll say, come on over. I want to play you this song that I've written for you in such-and-such a place in the script. And, you know, I'll pop over to his house, and he'll sit down at the piano and he'll sing the song.

Kills himself laughing when he was playing "The Worst Pies In London." Can you imagine trying to play that and make all the sound effects and, you know, all the beats and so on, which are done with the dough and the rolling pin and all of that? He'd worked it all out. Every piece of business in that song, Steve had written. It was right there on the music. She swats the fly, she hits the dough, she pops her mouth or whatever she does, you know, at that moment.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE WORST PIES IN LONDON")

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) And no wonder, with the price of meat what it is when you get it. Never thought I'd live to see the day. Men'd think it was a treat, finding poor animals what are dying in the street. Mrs. Mooney has a pie shop, does her business. But I've noticed something weird. Lately, all her neighbors' cats have disappeared. Have to hand it to her, what I calls enterprise, popping pussies into pies. Wouldn't do in my shop. Just the thought of it's enough to make you sick, and I'm telling you, them pussy cats is quick. No denying times is hard, sir. Even harder than the worst pies in London, only lard and nothing more. Is that just revolting? All greasy and gritty. It looks like it's molting and tastes like, well, pity. A woman alone with limited wind and the worst pies in London. Ah, sir, times is hard. Times is hard

GROSS: I want to talk with you about the character that you play. Now, you had said that finding the character was left completely to you. And you went back to books written about Sweeney Todd and the original book to find out a little more about the character. Now, you manage in the production to convey simultaneously meanness and humor, an ability to be murderous with an ability to be extremely warm and friendly and huggable, lovable. And you have the audience on your side as you're participating...

LANSBURY: Yes.

GROSS: ...In these murders. What are some of the ways, do you feel, that you were able to convey all of that and have the audience with you like that?

LANSBURY: Mrs. Lovett is really a conglomerate of all of that knowledge that I have of English theater going way, way back. She is almost a choreographed character. She is so broad in her scope. The idea is that she can do anything. She can slit your throat, and you will love her as she's doing it because she does it with such a total childlike joy and amorality that anything goes.

Now, this is everybody's dream of a companion, somebody who will adapt instantly to anything you would like to expect from her at that moment. Now, that's what we all long for. Sweeney Todd, lucky devil, found the very one. Now, occasionally, she goes off on her own little tangent, such as when she confides to him that her dream in life is really to retire by the seaside. But if she didn't, and if he didn't provide her with the little house by the sea, she would still do anything in the world that he wanted. Why? Because she absolutely adores him and always did.

Now, these are all the things that I know about Mrs. Lovett. I have to try and sell you on the fact that this is the case about this old bag lady. But I do understand these things about her, and so that is what I am playing all the time. She is a victim of the gutter. She is on the edge of the establishment. Absolutely anything goes. The fact that they have no money and no food for the pies, the most obvious thing in the world to her is to utilize those poor fellas coming down the chute.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "A LITTLE PRIEST")

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett) Well, you know me. Bright ideas just pop into my head. And I keep thinking.

(Singing) Seems a downright shame.

LEN CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd) Shame?

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) Seems an awful waste. Such a nice, plump frame what's-his-name has - had - has. Nor it can't be traced. Business needs a lift, debts to be erased. Think of it as thrift, as a gift, if you get my drift. No? Seems an awful waste. I mean, with the price of meat what it is, when you get it, if you get it.

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd) Huh.

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) Good, you got it. Take, for instance, Mrs. Mooney and her pie shop. Business never better, using only pussy cats and toast. And a pussy's good for maybe six or seven at the most. And I'm sure they can't compare as far as taste.

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) Mrs. Lovett, what a charming notion. Eminently practical and yet appropriate, as always.

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) Well, it does seem a waste.

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) Mrs. Lovett, how I've lived without you all these years I'll never know.

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) It's an idea.

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) How delectable.

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) Think about it, lots of other gentlemen will soon be coming for a shave, won't they?

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) Also undetectable.

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) Think of...

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) How choice.

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) ...All them...

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) How rare.

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) ...Pies

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) For what's the sound of the world out there?

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) What, Mr. Todd? What, Mr. Todd? What is that sound?

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) Those crunching noises pervading the air?

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) Yes, Mr. Todd. Yes, Mr. Todd. Yes, all around.

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) It's man devouring man, my dear.

ANGELA LANSBURY AND LEN CARIOU: (As Mrs. Lovett. and Sweeney Todd, singing) And who are we to deny it in here?

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd) Ah, these are desperate times, Mrs. Lovett, and desperate measures must be taken.

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett) Here we are now. Hot out of the oven.

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd) What is that?

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) It's priest. Have a little priest.

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) Is it really good?

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) Sir, it's too good, at least. Then again, they don't commit sins of the flesh, so it's pretty fresh.

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) Awful lot of fat.

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) Only where it's sat.

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) Haven't you got poet or something like that?

LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) No. You see, the trouble with poet is how do you know it's deceased? Try the priest.

CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd) Mm, heavenly. Not as hearty as bishop, perhaps.

BIANCULLI: That was Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou singing "A Little Priest" from "Sweeney Todd." In 2022, Lansbury won her sixth Tony for lifetime achievement. She died that same year at the age of 96. The Tonys are scheduled to be televised Sunday night on CBS. Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews the horror films "Backrooms" and "Obsession." This is FRESH AIR.

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. The horror films "Backrooms" and "Obsession" defied expectations by claiming the top-two spots at the box office last weekend in what many are calling a game-changing moment for the movie industry. Both are relatively low-budget first features from 20-something directors who got their start making short films for their YouTube channels. Our film critic, Justin Chang, saw them both.

JUSTIN CHANG, BYLINE: In 2019, a photo posted on the message board 4chan gave rise to the creepy concept of the backrooms - an endless maze of what appeared to be abandoned corporate offices with beige carpets, yellow walls and fluorescent lights. The idea of being doomed to wander this mundane, liminal space proved popular enough to inspire a horror meme and a web series directed by a teenager named Kane Parsons.

Now Parsons is 20, and his new "Backrooms" feature is the No. 1 movie at the box office. With more than $80 million so far, it's already made back its budget and then some. It's an elegantly disorienting movie with a number of riddles that, at least initially, it wisely avoids answering. It's set in 1990 in the suburbs of Santa Clara Valley, California. Chiwetel Ejiofor plays Clark, a middle-aged alcoholic with a failing furniture store business. One night, in the basement of his store, he somehow walks through a wall and finds himself in the backrooms. He wanders the space for hours, and his mad curiosity stokes ours, too. Who built this ugly labyrinth, and why? And what is the strange hulking creature he hears and sometimes sees?

Clark returns to the backrooms day after day, obsessively mapping out the different levels and marveling at the sometimes-eccentric design choices and furnishings. Some of the chairs and shelves might have come from his store. At one point, he convinces his work assistant and her boyfriend to join him and film the place with a camcorder, at which point the movie briefly becomes a spooky found-footage thriller in the style of that innovative '90s horror classic "The Blair Witch Project."

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BACKROOMS")

FINN BENNETT: (As Bobby) So it's, like - well, like an empty office building?

CHIWETEL EJIOFOR: (As Clark) In here? Sure. But it's like it was made by a bunch of construction workers on acid. (Laughter) I mean, there's even a pool.

LUKITA MAXWELL: (As Kat) There's a pool?

EJIOFOR: (As Clark) Yeah. I mean, kind of. Keep up.

CHANG: Clark also talks about the backrooms to his therapist, Mary - a wonderful Renate Reinsve - who becomes an important secondary character. At one point, we hear Mary articulate some of the movie's themes a little too bluntly. We all have our loops, our habits, she says - behaviors that keep us walking in circles. Clark's new playground, in other words, is a kind of prison - a metaphor for how we get stuck in traps of our own making.

But that's just one of many psychological readings that can be projected onto the backrooms. For some viewers, they will evoke the thrill and the terror of extreme isolation. For others, they'll remind them of the pandemic, when office buildings everywhere stood empty. These are fascinating ideas, but it's when Parsons begins trying to nail them down that his movie becomes a smaller, more conventional thing than it was at the start. "Backrooms" is full of mysteries within mysteries. It would have been better to leave more of them unsolved. Even so, at its best, "Backrooms" can be unnervingly effective. It also isn't the only horror movie that has defied expectations this summer.

Since its May 15 release, the ultra-low-budget supernatural thriller "Obsession" has grossed more than $100 million, making it one of the year's most profitable films. On the surface, it's a less conceptually ambitious piece of work than "Backrooms," but it's also, I think, the better and more genuinely subversive movie. Michael Johnston plays Bear, a reserved young music store employee who's smitten with his friend and coworker Nikki, played by Inde Navarrette. When he buys a novelty item at a crystal shop that claims to grant its owner a single wish, Bear half-heartedly wishes that Nikki would love him more than anyone in the world.

From there, the 26-year-old writer-director Curry Barker spins a story that's basically "The Monkey's Paw" meets "Fatal Attraction." Nikki and Bear become a couple, to the bewilderment of their friends and coworkers. Before long, Nikki's magically induced feelings for Bear begin to manifest in increasingly disturbing, shocking ways, from extreme clinginess to jealous, even homicidal fury. "Obsession" is thus the latest riff on the old adage to be careful what you wish for, but what gives it its peculiar power is that it presents Nikki, not Bear, as the story's true victim. Bear's wish is a supreme violation of her emotional, spiritual and physical autonomy, and Navarrette's astonishing performance dramatizes an internal clash between two Nikkis. She doesn't just go off the rails. We see her, at every step, struggling to stay on the rails.

By the time Barker drops a direct reference to "The Exorcist," it's already clear that "Obsession" is a demonic possession movie. It uses the prism of genre to speak to issues of consent, male loneliness and how even a guy as seemingly kind and sensitive as Bear can become a woman's worst nightmare.

BIANCULLI: Justin Chang is a film critic at The New Yorker. He reviewed "Backrooms" and "Obsession," now in theaters.

On Monday's show, in celebration of the 15th anniversary of the Tony Award-winning musical "The Book Of Mormon," the two original stars, Andrew Rannells and Josh Gad, will make guest appearances in a Broadway revival. We'll talk to them both about the show and how it changed their lives. They're both really funny, on and offstage. I hope you can join us.

To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/thisisfreshair. We're rolling out new videos with in-studio guests, behind-the-scenes shorts and iconic interviews from the archive.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our senior producer today is Thea Chaloner. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Tina Kalakay. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, I'm David Bianculli.

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