'I'm a say yes person': Actor Colman Domingo is up for new challenges

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. My guest today, Colman Domingo, is nominated for two Emmy Awards this year for two very different performances. In the Netflix comedy "The Four Seasons," he plays Danny, one half of a long married couple who vacation each year with their oldest friends. Danny is funny, vain, impeccably dressed and now in his 50s, confronting a question he thought he'd settled long ago - whether he wants to become a father. And in the final season of HBO's "Euphoria," Domingo returns as Ali, a man in long-term recovery who has spent the series trying to help Rue, played by Zendaya, stay alive. Domingo won an Emmy for that role in 2022, and this year, he's nominated again for his performance in the series finale.

It's the latest chapter and a remarkable stretch for Domingo, whose rise in Hollywood came after decades in the theater. He started in regional productions in San Francisco, then moved to New York, where he performed on Broadway, won an Obie, was nominated for a Tony and an Olivier and wrote and directed his own plays. In his 40s, Hollywood caught up with him. And since then, he's had a steady run of roles, an Emmy, and back-to-back Oscar nominations for the film "Rustin" and "Sing Sing." Just this year, he played Joe Jackson in the biopic "Michael" and had a role in Steven Spielberg's "Disclosure Day" and hosted "Saturday Night Live," and just last month, "Jimmy Kimmel."

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!")

COLMAN DOMINGO: Welcome to "Jimmy Kimmel Live!" I'm your guest host, Colman Domingo.

(CHEERING)

DOMINGO: I'm so happy to be here with all of you. We're going to have some fun this week. Just think of me as Jimmy if he had better clothes and Zendaya's phone number.

(LAUGHTER)

MOSLEY: (Laughter) Colman Domingo, welcome back to FRESH AIR.

DOMINGO: Oh, thank you so much Tonya. I appreciate it.

MOSLEY: That was such a delight to see you on "Jimmy Kimmel." Every summer, he has guest hosts who come in, and you were in the rotation. And you were in the rotation for just about a whole week.

DOMINGO: Yeah, for a whole week, and it was great. It was like the week of a lifetime. It was so much fun. And, you know, I love that things are coming to me right now, like, opportunities to do things I've never done before. Like, I've never hosted a late-night show, but I love the idea of looking at myself the way someone else sees me. And if Jimmy thought that I could do it, I thought, well, let me try. But the first thing I do is I go into deep research. I went back and looked at old Jack Parr shows.

MOSLEY: Oh, you did. You went in.

DOMINGO: Oh, yeah, Johnny Carson. I looked at the greats, and I wanted to figure out, how did they do it, and what was their style, and what would my style be?

MOSLEY: Yeah. Well, congratulations...

DOMINGO: Thank you.

MOSLEY: ...On your Emmy nominations and on being able to host "Jimmy Kimmel Live!"

DOMINGO: Thank you.

MOSLEY: "The Four Seasons" is such a fun watch. And it's about three couples - old friends who vacation together for decades and what happens to the group when those marriages start to shift, which...

DOMINGO: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Happens with everyone's relationship. This season, your character, Danny, he's dealing with several issues within his own marriage, and he and his husband, Claude, have been talking about having a child, and Claude is - he's basically having second thoughts. And so I actually want to play a scene. In this scene, Danny has just come from one of those conversations with his partner, and he's confiding in his best friend, Kate, played by Tina Fey, while they look at a beach home that is for sale. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE FOUR SEASONS")

DOMINGO: (As Danny) OK, 655 Ocean Lane. I mean, the wallpaper is Midwest funeral home, but the house. If we were smart, we would buy it and turn it into a bed and breakfast.

TINA FEY: (As Kate) Oh, I'm in. I will retire early and run it, and then when our husbands die...

DOMINGO: (As Danny) Claude, botched facelift. Jack, perforated rectum from too many unnecessary colonoscopies.

FEY: (As Kate) We'll live here together.

DOMINGO: (As Danny) Can we do it now? (Laughter) Claude's pissing me off.

FEY: (As Kate) Oh, is it because of his bonnet?

DOMINGO: (As Danny) The surrogate asks if we were still interested. But now all of a sudden, Claude thinks that we're too old.

FEY: (As Kate) Oof. I mean, I get it.

DOMINGO: (As Danny) No, you're supposed to say you're not too old, and how dare he?

FEY: (As Kate) I'm sorry. You are very young. You told me who SZA was.

DOMINGO: (As Danny) Do I know for sure, for sure if we should do it? No. But I do know we can't keep talking about it. We're either never going to do it or we're going to become two Tony Randalls who feed our baby applesauce that we also eat.

FEY: (As Kate) OK, if you're really having trouble making a decision, my therapist...

DOMINGO: (As Danny) No.

FEY: (As Kate) ...Has a book...

DOMINGO: (As Danny) Absolutely not.

FEY: (As Kate) ...Called "The Three Magic Questions."

DOMINGO: (As Danny) I'll kill you in your sleep.

FEY: (As Kate) It really helped me decide whether I should do Invisalign for a third time. I decided possibly at a later date.

DOMINGO: (As Danny) There's nothing to decide. At this point, we just need to push through.

FEY: (As Kate) Oh, yes, you could push through, or you could seriously consider Claude's concerns. Is this right for both of you? Or...

DOMINGO: (As Danny) Hi, Brenda? We are definitely still interested.

FEY: (As Kate) What are you doing?

DOMINGO: (As Danny) I'm pushing through.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MOSLEY: That was my guest Colman Domingo in the Netflix series "The Four Seasons." Throughout that entire clip, you kept laughing at all the different points. Yeah.

DOMINGO: Oh, my God. Danny is so acerbic. My gosh, he's like an alter universe me. I think (laughter)...

MOSLEY: In what way? Yeah.

DOMINGO: I don't know. He's just really pointed and funny. He's really a creation that I really, really love. I love the way the writers write for him.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

DOMINGO: He's...

MOSLEY: Did you have a hand in it, though?

DOMINGO: The funny thing is, no. I would say the thing that I have a hand in, I will - when I first met with Tina Fey to talk about this character...

MOSLEY: Because she's the creator...

DOMINGO: Yeah, she's the creator.

MOSLEY: ...Of "The Four Seasons."

DOMINGO: She and Lang Fisher and Tracey Wigfield, they wanted to bring together a group of people that they understood, you know, based on the 1981 Alan Alda film. But to really make it modern and fun and warm and make sure that this couple, in particular, it's one of the, you know, central couples, as well, this couple should feel like a couple that I understand. And I knew the thing that I told Tina was, here's a same-sex loving couple that are really in very heteronormative environments. Like, these couples are having issues like everyone else, but they're also very spirited and very much who they are.

MOSLEY: This is an ensemble of comedy veterans. Tina Fey and Will Forte, they came up through "SNL," as we know, Steve Carell through "Second City," Kerri Kenney-Silver through "Reno 911! " And that is largely improvised. And you have done some comedy.

DOMINGO: Yeah.

MOSLEY: But you have come from some serious places.

DOMINGO: Yeah.

MOSLEY: You come from the theater, you know?

DOMINGO: Very much (laughter).

MOSLEY: Did that make for any interesting dynamics on the set?

DOMINGO: Well, the thing is, when I first got the invitation to be a part of it, I thought - for a second, I thought, well, why me, in particular? Like, I'm not really known for comedy. But I think that what Tina and the rest of the gang could tell is that I'm willing, and I'm game, but I hadn't relied on those comedic chops in a long time. So to lean into that was something - it felt new and fresh again for me, especially this late in my career, where the idea of doing a half-hour comedy was a challenge.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

DOMINGO: I wanted to see if I could do it, more than anything.

MOSLEY: I can just imagine, though, being with all of those funny men and women. Did it feel good when they laughed at the stuff you said? You know (laughter)?

DOMINGO: You know what? It does. But the funny thing is about funny people - and I'll tell you this, and I wonder if they would say this about themselves - they don't naturally laugh when something's funny 'cause they're like mad scientists. They almost look at the math of it and...

MOSLEY: Oh, they're dissecting it.

DOMINGO: ...Oh, that's good. I wonder how that happened. You did this, you turned on this line. You blah, blah, blah. You gave a pause. You get a beat. Most comedians I know are very serious people. And also, they're also a bit shy. I think my - I would say this, Tina's very shy. I would say Steve Carell is very shy. But they know how to get the thing done like mathematicians. They look at it in that framework, which I think is fascinating.

MOSLEY: You actually directed an episode...

DOMINGO: Yeah, this season and last season, too.

MOSLEY: ...Of this season and last season. Lang Fisher, one of the three co-creators of the show, said that when you directed the episode "Ultimate Frisbee, she watched you cry in a scene you were in while directing another actor through his own tears, going back into that character you were in to keep crying, all while still watching whether the background performer meets his steps. And that seems like an extraordinary amount of work to...

DOMINGO: (Laughter) It is.

MOSLEY: ...To hold all at once.

DOMINGO: It is. And I don't know if everyone's brain is meant for that, but I feel like I have one of those brains. I can manage a lot, which is why I've always been a director since I started in the theater, because I can handle a lot of frisbees up in the air at the same time. So I know the scene exactly she was talking about. She was amazed that I was able to direct my costar while keeping my emotional work, while being able to look at playback, while making sure that background is doing what they need to do. I just have one of those brains.

MOSLEY: Where does that come from? I know you're hyper-organized.

DOMINGO: Yeah, I'm hyper-organized. But also, maybe that's it. I'm well-prepared and planned so I can be loose and free. But my mind has always been on everything. I think it starts with the way I came into this industry, which was learning by going to rehearsals I wasn't even in. I would go and sit into rehearsals, like, when I was 21 years old in San Francisco. And I would go...

MOSLEY: Play rehearsals?

DOMINGO: Yeah, play rehearsals. And I would watch. And I would watch all departments and what was going on. So I had a handle of everything. And also, if I was invited to be in a scene, I would be able to take a look at what I'm doing and how the engine of what I'm doing is forwarding the whole thing. So I'm never just focused, I don't know, solely as an actor or as a writer or director. I'm looking at the whole picture at all times. So I know I can manage that. So I think that that's what my brain naturally does.

MOSLEY: What made you want to do that? I'm thinking about a young Colman. You could've just been focused on, I want to act. I want to be on the stage or I want to write. I want to be a screenplay writer. But for you to say, I'm going to, on my free time, step into someone else's rehearsal and dissect it.

DOMINGO: I'm just very curious about all of it. It's always been that way for me. And I think that I've just been a very - I was a very curious kid. And I knew that, listen, I come from a very humble place. I come from...

MOSLEY: West Philadelphia.

DOMINGO: ...Inner city West Philadelphia, where, you know, a lot of blue-collar folks. I was the first in my family to go to college. And I think I knew that my power was in learning and in education. And learn as much as you can. And get as much as you can from every situation.

So you name it. Whatever show I'm on, I can't just go in there just as an actor. I will always end up as a director and a producer, you name it, because I have that interest. Not everyone has that. There's some people who are very singular. And that's also fine. But I know that, like, when I did the show "Fear The Walking Dead," I started as No. 9 on the call sheet, ended at No 2 and a director and a producer.

You know, so for me, even with "The Four Seasons," I love the fact that I'm a director on that show because I feel like I understand it and I can give something to it, you know? I understand the actors that I'm working with, mostly comedians, who I sort of help usher them to go to the, you know, more dramatic places. And it surprises them where they're able to go. And I love that. And I love that - you know, because I know I have that facility to do that and help bring the best out of my cast.

MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is award-winning actor Colman Domingo. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF RAY CHARLES' "UNDECIDED")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and today I am talking with Colman Domingo. He's up for two Emmys this year in two different categories. Outstanding supporting actor in a comedy for the Netflix series "The Four Seasons." And outstanding guest actor in a drama for the final season of HBO's "Euphoria." He also stars as Joe Jackson in the Michael Jackson biopic, "Michael."

Let's talk about "Euphoria" for a moment.

DOMINGO: I would love to.

MOSLEY: Yeah. I mean, "Euphoria" lovers watched the end of an era this year. And to remind people, your role was as Ali. He is a man in long-term recovery.

DOMINGO: Yes.

MOSLEY: He was also Rue's sponsor. And Rue is played by Zendaya. This was basically written for you by "Euphoria's" creator, Sam Levinson. And he wrote it based on his own former sponsor.

DOMINGO: Yeah.

MOSLEY: So it was inspired by that. And there have been so many mixed reactions. You know, of course, when a show ends, it is - you can't please everybody on how a show ends. But this show in particular - because we have been following Rue, we have been following you and all the characters - to end the way it ends feels both devastating, but it also feels true.

DOMINGO: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Like, it feels extremely true to life. I want to play a scene from this last episode. Ali's purpose at this point in the show had been to be a support for people battling addiction. And it feels like a job he can't ever really be successful at because kids keep dying. I mean, fentanyl is out there. And it is killing people. And without giving away spoilers, I will say that at this point in the show, Ali is tired, and he is brokenhearted. And here he is at an AA meeting giving his testimony. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "EUPHORIA")

DOMINGO: (As Ali) A couple of months ago, I lost someone I really cared about. And for the first time in a long time, I picked up the drink. I don't even know what to do with the pain. I've been a Christian, a Muslim. Suddenly, I found myself not believing in [expletive]. I just know that I'm tired, tired of losing people. Tired of spending my life in these rooms and in diners and at my house talking to kids, helping kids, pouring my heart and soul in these kids, only to not see them get a second chance. I'm done. Only thing I know for certain is that there is a right and a wrong in this world, and ain't no in-between. You're either making the world a better place or you're making it worse. In the end, it's that simple. This is going to be my last meeting. I'm going to find another way to be of better service.

MOSLEY: That is my guest today, Colman Domingo, in the last episode of Season 3 of "Euphoria." Colman, we watched the evolution of Ali. He's trying to save Rue. He's also trying to do that for himself. He's sponsoring other people's children because he doesn't have a relationship with his own children. With that in mind, how did you think about how you would play him, how you would wrap him up? Because you kind of chose to play him cold. You did not play him emotional. And that seems to be a choice.

DOMINGO: That was a choice, I think, because that's the toll that it's taken on him. I think that he's someone who's very deeply feeling. And I thought - in the writing of it, I thought, OK, well, here's someone who's given so much to so many. And when this significant death happens, I think it numbs him. And then he's on a mission, trying to find what was important. When he went back to the bottle, he knew that wasn't it either. And he was like, I have to do something else. The most beautiful thing about this last season of "Euphoria" is the framework. The framework is of an American Western.

MOSLEY: It is, yes.

DOMINGO: And in Westerns, classic Westerns, there's just good and bad. And Ali decided that that was it. There's no in-between. He's going against something that he used to espouse that was a bit more complicated. And he said, actually, no, people just don't know the difference between right and wrong, and that's it. So therefore, I'm going to fight for what's right. And I'm going to use what I have in this moment to fight for good. And that's what he does.

MOSLEY: Do you metabolize these characters and these storylines with that emotional weight of feeling like it's true? Did you mourn at all?

DOMINGO: I think you could possibly tell that, even listening to either character, there's something that's so close and in my skin.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

DOMINGO: Like, my body just started to react. I started to cry when I was listening to them. About to start crying now just talking about them because they're in me. All of these characters are in me. I mean, we haven't talked about Joe Jackson yet, but Joe Jackson's in me. (Laughter) I mean, you know, Bayard Rustin's in me. I think there's an Abbey Lincoln song that says, I've got some people in me. I believe everyone lives in me and everyone calls on me to help tell their story. And so it is metabolized in me.

There's aspects of them in my experience or the people that I know that I can tap into. So, literally - you know, I'm not a method actor. But I can go very deep with my characters. But I know that they're just right here. I just - I can tap and literally just listen, which is why a lot of times I watch - I don't watch my work that often unless I need it to, like, oh, let me remember what I'm talking about before I go into do press. But if I watch it, sometimes - like, my movie "Sing Sing," I've only watched it twice because it feels closer to anything I've ever done. It feels closer to me.

MOSLEY: Colman, I was very fascinated. You growing up in West Philadelphia, watching the news with your mother every evening. And you having the sense and understanding that, oh, I'm seeing lots of things in the world that are troubling - but also this is not a full view of the world, and I want to be a part of providing a more expansive view, and where that came from for you.

DOMINGO: My mother was very much, how can I say, she was - she had a great imagination. And she was very hopeful, very - and believing. She set me up early with the belief that the world is set up to do me more good than harm. And it may not be here where we are, but it's out there. And it's in all those books that I would read. It's in all the books that I would read about ancient Egypt and Rome and the world.

And she inspired me to go see the world, go out there in the world. There's more than just this. She said, you can go there someday. You can actually go to those places. And I believed her, (laughter) you know? So I think that she really believed in - she was very spiritual. But she also helped me believe in myself and believe that I could be a part of the world. I owe so much to my mom and to my stepfather, and to my family, growing up, because I feel like I was a very - I was sort of the weird kid, in a way. And weird...

MOSLEY: What does that mean?

DOMINGO: I don't know, because I feel like I didn't do what other kids did. I played with Legos and in the house. And I played the violin and all the stuff that, like, I guess, you know, inner city kids didn't do so much, it seemed at that time. And I was always in the library from the moment school was over, and I was in the library And I was creating there. I was sort of the weird little brother. I wasn't into athletics. And I wasn't into...

MOSLEY: And you didn't feel pressure to do it anyway?

DOMINGO: No, no. I was very nurtured. I was nurtured to be soft, to be very honest. I'm thinking about my sister right now. She's like, you're such a weirdo.

MOSLEY: That's what she would call you?

DOMINGO: Yeah, you're such a weirdo. But then she would hug me. Or my brother, Rick, would come in from gymnastics. You know, he's tough and he was one of the cool kids. And - but yeah, still they loved their sweet, soft little brother.

MOSLEY: Brother. Yeah.

DOMINGO: Yeah, they loved me, and they made me feel special. Mm. No one ever made me feel that I wasn't the person I was supposed to be.

MOSLEY: Our guest today is award-winning actor Colman Domingo. We'll be right back after a break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF STEELY DAN SONG, "DO IT AGAIN")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And my guest today is actor, playwright, director and producer Colman Domingo. He's nominated for two Emmy Awards this year for the Netflix comedy, "The Four Seasons" and for the final season of HBO's "Euphoria." He won an Emmy for "Euphoria" in 2022. Domingo came up in the theater and has been nominated for both a Tony and an Olivier. He's also a playwright. On film, he's worked with Steven Spielberg, Ava DuVernay, Barry Jenkins, Lee Daniels in "Lincoln," "Selma," "If Beale Street Could Talk" and "The Butler." He played Mister in "The Color Purple" and has been nominated for back-to-back Academy Awards for best actor. Recently, he played Joe Jackson in "Michael," the biopic of the early years of Michael Jackson.

You know, Joe Jackson is the reason why we have Jackson Five...

DOMINGO: Absolutely.

MOSLEY: ...Why we had Michael. He also was a complicated person. He was an abusive father who demanded excellence. And I'm going to play a bit of your performance, and we'll talk about it on the other side. In this scene, Michael is a young man. He has just finished recording "Thriller," and this is the album that's going to make him the most famous man in the world. He lives with his parents, and he comes home and he finds his father in his room. And Joe wants Michael to tour with his brothers as the Jackson Five, and it's the last thing that Michael wants to do. Michael talks first.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MICHAEL")

JAAFAR JACKSON: (As Michael Jackson) Why are you here?

DOMINGO: (As Joseph Jackson) Well, can't a father visit his son? Biggest selling record of all time. From a poor kid from Gary. Who would have thought? Me. I thought. Come here.

JACKSON: (As Michael Jackson) Joseph, I know you want something.

DOMINGO: (As Joseph Jackson) Michael, I'm going to need you to tour with your brothers. Now, I let you do that album by yourself. I'm going to need you to do this for me. For your family.

JACKSON: (As Michael Jackson) I'm not a child anymore, Joseph. And you're not my manager.

DOMINGO: (As Joseph Jackson) Here we go.

JACKSON: (As Michael Jackson) I have to start living my own life on my own. Just like everyone else.

DOMINGO: (As Joseph Jackson) You ain't like everyone else. So you're trying to tell me you want to be treated like an adult. Alright. You want to see what the world is like without a family that protects you. Without a family that understands you. Nobody else will understand you outside this place. Yeah, you'll be with all the money in the world. Surrounded by people who will say yes to everything. Is that what you want? What kind of sense does that make? I'm going to call Don King and tell him you're doing a tour. I know you don't want to let your family down.

MOSLEY: That was my guest today, Colman Domingo, as Joe Jackson and Jaffar Jackson as Michael Jackson in the movie "Michael."

Well, Colman, you just mentioned that in order to pay Joe, you had to tap into the Joe inside of you. I think that's really interesting. Tell me a little bit more about that.

DOMINGO: I'll say that Joe Jackson that will live in me is represented by all the blue-collar men that I know of a certain generation who were raised, you know, pre-civil rights. The men who were, like, maybe had a third-grade education, who they believe it was work ethic, showing up, showing up for your family and making it a family business.

MOSLEY: The great migration men.

DOMINGO: It's the great migration men. Absolutely. Men that I have a soft spot for that I understand. It's like, my stepfather was probably part of that generation. He was a guy who had a seventh-grade education, and he sanded hardwood floors. He had a craft. And he was very tough. When he met my mom, my mom had, you know, three children, and he became my stepfather, and he had very rigorous rules, which was about education, doing your homework, being a man of your word, chores.

He was tough. When he came home, you better make sure the house was clean. And I think that I understood that kind of man. I'm like, OK, now let me get into the head space of that man, that man who's got to support the Jackson family, nine children. You know, he's working at a steel mill. His sons have talent, and his sons also asked him to help them. They're like, they're starting in a group. Everybody's starting groups. And he saw talent as kids, and he worked them.

That scene that you played is one of my favorite scenes, actually, because it starts to go into a lot of the things that, you know, I have to look through the lens of Joe Jackson. I had to look at the lens of being a father and a parent. I couldn't let what people said about him be the truth.

MOSLEY: And how did you do that? Because you're an actor, but you're also just a person who was born and raised in the United States.

DOMINGO: Yeah.

MOSLEY: And the place that the Jackson Five and Michael Jackson plays in our imagination is - looms so large. I mean, you're coming into it with the preconceived...

DOMINGO: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Notions.

DOMINGO: But, the first thing you do with anyone, you take the person and you look at the character of the person. And I looked at interviews. I even had one wonderful - this interesting interview. I wouldn't say wonderful. Interesting interview when Joe was asked about, like, being harsh to his children, especially to Michael. And he'd sit there with a smile. He said, well, yeah, Michael said, yeah, I whooped him. Yeah - like, he admit it, like, I whooped him. He said, but I whooped him all the way to the bank. So, in his mind, he's the hero.

MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is award-winning actor Colman Domingo. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF KEVIN EUBANKS' "POET")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today, I am talking with Colman Domingo. He's up for two Emmys this year for the Netflix comedy "The Four Seasons" and for the final season of HBO's "Euphoria." He's also been nominated for back-to-back Academy Awards for "Rustin" and for "Sing Sing."

In 2024, you play Divine G in the film "Sing Sing," for which you were nominated for an Academy Award. And it is about a group of men incarcerated at Sing Sing prison, who put together a play, and it's based on a real program there called Rehabilitation Through The Arts. And your company, Edith Productions, which is named after your mother...

DOMINGO: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Helped finance and produce this film. What was it that made you say, I've got to go all-in, I've got to put my whole self in it...

DOMINGO: (Laughter).

MOSLEY: ...My money, my time...

DOMINGO: Everything.

MOSLEY: ...And act in it?

DOMINGO: I got this really incredible opportunity from Greg Kwedar and Clint Bentley, the director and producer of "Sing Sing." They were putting together something that really - there was no script, and it was just an article, an old article they had about this program. They sent me that, and they said, we've been trying to make a film about this program in some way, but not about the program, but it should just be about people. And then the idea of inviting former incarcerated men to be a part of it who went through this program called Rehabilitation Through The Arts...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

DOMINGO: ...That started in Sing Sing, where you have theater professionals. They come in, and they teach the incarcerated men theater games...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

DOMINGO: ...And put on plays. And they found that doing that - and it was all, you know, organized by the inmates - they find by doing that, it helped these guys get more in touch with their feelings, exhibit a bit more empathy. It became a tool to help them and process while they were on the inside. And then the recidivism rate was less than 6%...

MOSLEY: Of those who had gone through the program.

DOMINGO: ...Of those who had gone through the program, which I thought was extraordinary. So based on all of that, I thought, I would love to be a part of this.

MOSLEY: Divine G - your character, who's a real person - in running this theater program, it's his entire world. And I want to play a scene where he's at his clemency hearing because he's at a moment where he's up for potentially being released from prison. And he's trying to explain what the program has meant to him, and one of the commissioners isn't buying it. She wants to know whether she's watching a performance. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SING SING")

SHARON WASHINGTON: (As character) You've been involved in numerous programs. It's too long a list for me to go through, but I do have a question about the theater program. You've been involved in that many years, have you not?

DOMINGO: (As Divine G) Yes. Yes, ma'am. I am a founding member of this program. It's something I'm very proud of.

WASHINGTON: (As character) And what part do you play in this program? Actor, director?

DOMINGO: (As Divine G) Well, we all do a few things. I'm on what is called the steering committee. We make a lot of decisions for how it operates and, from time to time, I do act, like we all do. And it's been a program that was established to help the population with management skills. And it's turned into something a bit more - I don't know - wonderful. Because it helps people get more in touch with their feelings and able to process and actually move through and truly get some rehabilitation.

WASHINGTON: (As character) So are you acting at all during this interview?

DOMINGO: (As Divine G) Absolutely not. I truly hope that you can understand that I've been very sincere. I know how meaningful this is. I would never - actually, that's not the intention of acting. Acting is just to, you know...

WASHINGTON: (As character) I...

DOMINGO: (As Divine G) ...A process.

WASHINGTON: (As character) I read about the program. It's a good program.

MOSLEY: That is my guest Coleman Domingo as Divine G in the film, "Sing Sing."

DOMINGO: Yeah. The clemency officer's played by the great Sharon Washington...

MOSLEY: Thank you. Yes.

DOMINGO: ...Who is one of my dearest friends. And so I was able to populate the film with just a couple actors who are actually professional actors who can help anchor these moments. And so when this scene comes up, I thought we need that voice of someone who is the system. And in particular, I think it was written as sort of a white male, and I brought the idea of Greg Kwedar up. I'm like, I think it should be a Black woman. Because no one knows that a Black woman, when she's in a position of authority in that way, she's got to be more system because there are more eyes on her. So she almost had to be a bit more removed and be the system. And I thought, that's also a complicated story. That's a story within a story of the demands put on Black women.

MOSLEY: You know, one of the things, also, about that performance that came up for me is, like, OK, it's you in front of - you're having to display yourself in the same way - it's not the same thing, but similar to the audition process, where you have to stand up before people and they have to judge you. And my goodness, early in your career, you did this so much. You...

DOMINGO: All the time.

MOSLEY: ...I think I read here that you were auditioning in your 40s as many as eight times a week...

DOMINGO: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Still bartending, and you weren't working. And there is one day when you received a phone call where you decided that, like, I'm done.

DOMINGO: I was exhausted from the output that I've been putting in for years in this industry and the gains that I've had - many, many gains. By the time I went to the West End in London, and I was performing in "The Scottsboro Boys," and I had an Olivier nomination, and I was doing work that I thought was impactful and important. And then I would go back to New York. And then I would just, like, be pounding the pavement again, almost like getting roles that I felt like didn't match what I can give. I didn't have a lot of access or real agency. So - and then I had, like, countless auditions that were sort of meaningless or felt like was just going into the void. No one was seeing my tapes. And I was just really exhausted to the point where I just sort of broke down. I was at the gym, and I'll never forget this. I just, like, started sobbing after this one other huge no.

MOSLEY: You received a phone call, yeah.

DOMINGO: Yeah. I received a phone call from my agent about - you know, everybody needs a yes, and I was like, well, this is my yes. I had, like, eight auditions this week. I need a yes. My finances need a yes. My husband needs a yes.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

DOMINGO: My soul needs a yes. And, literally, she called me up, and she just said, everyone loved you. Producers loved you. Directors loved you. It was an audition for "Boardwalk Empire."

MOSLEY: "Boardwalk Empire."

DOMINGO: "Boardwalk Empire."

MOSLEY: Yes.

DOMINGO: And it was to play a maitre d' or something, a host, a show host or something at Chalky's bar, played by Michael K. Williams, but it was his bar. And I thought, well, this has to be the one. I can see myself in this world. This is great.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

DOMINGO: They need a song and dance man.

MOSLEY: Yes.

DOMINGO: I sang. I danced. I wore the tuxedo in the audition. They all loved me. And then she said, but a researcher raised his hand and said, well, you know, all maitre d's and hosts at that time we're light skinned. And it wasn't even about the light skin part of it. That's not what I was angry about. I literally yelled into the phone. I said, they knew what I looked like before I got there. I feel like everyone's effing (ph) with me. And people didn't respect the time or energy that an artist put into something.

I thought, like, well, this business is going to kill me. It's going to break my heart. And my heart was getting very broken. So I was making steps to leave. And then my angel, one of my best friends, Daniel Breaker, he says - who's an extraordinary actor in his own right - we started passing streams together on Broadway. He said, you know, my manager has been wanting to meet with you for years. I'm like, oh, no, I don't want that anymore. I'm good. I'm good. He said, just think about it. Just meet with them. And I was like, fine. And I went into this meeting, and I was as begrudging as possible. I had my arms folded. I know I did. I was not the effervescent me. I was like, this is what I do. This is what I've done. I could do this. I don't know. You tell me. He said, oh, we'd love to work with you. I said, well, OK. Well, how about this? Why don't we give six months, and we'll see where we go?

MOSLEY: (Laughter).

DOMINGO: Within six months, I booked "Fear The Walking Dead" and another series, and then I chose "Fear The Walking Dead." And that show gave me a new footing in my career. I had a steady job on television. It gave me some more financial stability. It gave me a character that I was pouring myself into. I became a director on that show and a producer on that show. And I had more footing, and I had more - I had that yes to keep going.

MOSLEY: Well, you're definitely in your harvest stage right now. And you're so busy. You have so many projects, and you have so many projects ahead. Do you feel like you're in a rush to get as much done as possible? You brought up your age many times during our conversation.

DOMINGO: You know what? I bring up my age sort of as a lovely marker because I really love being in my 50s. I never knew that that would be the case.

MOSLEY: That you would love it, 'cause we were told not to...

DOMINGO: I love it.

MOSLEY: ...Yeah.

DOMINGO: Yeah. You know, people are told like, oh you're getting older or whatever. But I'm like, no. I feel like it's so cool, and it's so good (laughter). You know, so I think that I'm not rushing. The funny thing is, I feel like - listen, I've told people this, and they don't believe it. I said, I'm going to do a lot more between now and about - I'm saying about 61 or 62. And then I'm going to live a bit softer, in a way, because I feel like I've been building so much. I think that maybe I'm curious about evolving. So I don't feel like that I'm rushing anything. I feel like, if anything, right now, I'm taking more time and being really - I'm being very conscious about time with people. Sometimes I have to rethink because I will say yes first, and then I'll have to reset and say do I really want to do that?

MOSLEY: That's what you can do when you're in your 50s.

DOMINGO: When you're 50s, you're, like, I can do that because I'm fine with myself. And I'm not responsible about the way a person feels about it, either. Someone told me that, which is very cool. But she was 60, and she told me that. She said - she was taking me around this plantation, actually, in Georgia, and we were talking about life. And she says, you know, how old are you? I said, oh, I'm 50 - whatever it was. And she says, oh, she said, you're in your storytelling season. I said, oh, yeah? And she said, yeah. When you turn about 60, like me, you move into your truth-telling season. I said, what's that? She says, well, if you don't want to do something, you just say no. And I said, just no? She said, no. You don't have a qualifier? Nope. She says no because it's not my responsibility about the way I make another person feel. If I say it with love, but I'm honoring myself with love and grace, I say no. And that's it. So I think I decided to move into that chapter a little earlier (laughter).

MOSLEY: Right. It's now - the new 60 is the new 54.

DOMINGO: The new 60 is 54...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

DOMINGO: ...To be in the truth-telling season.

MOSLEY: Well, Colman Domingo, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much.

DOMINGO: You're so very welcome, Tonya. This has really been wonderful. Thank you.

MOSLEY: Colman Domingo is nominated for two Emmys for his performances in "Euphoria" and "The Four Seasons."

Coming up, classical music critic Lloyd Schwartz reviews a newly remastered album of "Handel Arias," sung by Lorraine Hunt Lieberson. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MATT WILSON'S "KING OF THE ROAD")

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. FRESH AIR's classical music critic Lloyd Schwartz has often spoke about the American mezzo soprano Lorraine Hunt Lieberson who died 20 years ago at 52. A new release of a remastered recording of her singing Handel arias reminded Lloyd, to his embarrassment, that the very first time he heard her, he wasn't sure how special she was.

(SOUNDBITE OF LORRAINE HUNT LIEBERSON, ET. AL SONG, "THEODORA, HWV 68: ARIA: 'AS WITH ROSY STEPS THE MORN' (2025 REMASTERED)")

LLOYD SCHWARTZ, BYLINE: Critics don't always get it right. The first time I heard a soprano named Lorraine Hunt, back in 1984, she was not yet married to composer Peter Lieberson. She played a featured role in an early Mozart opera. I had known her before only as a violist in the orchestra of Boston's Emmanuel Church. My critic colleagues were totally knocked out by her. But while I was impressed by her rich, sonorous voice, I thought her phrasing was a little stiff and without much character. I didn't keep that opinion for long.

A year later, she was in the landmark Peter Sellars' production of Handel's "Julius Caesar." She played the son of Pompey, whom Caesar has beheaded. The two arias of rage that Hunt sang are among the most memorable arias Handel ever wrote, but I'd never heard them sung with such torment and such rage. She was hair-raising. And until she died at only 52, at the height of her career, she never failed to be hair-raising, whether in comedy or tragedy, in Bach, Handel or Mozart or as some of the great operatic heroines - a fierce but tragic Carmen and Berlioz's noble and tragic Queen Dido, to the blowsy, yet poignant Myrtle Wilson in the world premiere of John Harbison's "The Great Gatsby," the role of her Met debut.

Near the end of her life, she was singing her husband Peter Lieberson's haunting Neruda Songs composed for her. She seemed to take in and explore every aspect of a role and a score. Her recordings are still being reissued. The latest is a beautifully remastered version of an album called "Handel Arias," mainly arias from one of the composer's last oratorios, "Theodora," his only dramatic work set in early Christian times, and in his lifetime, one of his biggest flops. Hunt Lieberson sings the role of the Christian martyr Theodora's solicitous friend, Irene, who has some of Handel's most spiritual music.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THEODORA, HWV 68: ARIA: 'AS WITH ROSY STEPS THE MORN' (2025 REMASTERED)")

LORRAINE HUNT LIEBERSON: (Singing) As with rosy steps, the morn advancing drives the shades of night. So from virtuous toils well-borne, raise thou our hopes of endless light - raise thou our hopes of endless light

SCHWARTZ: This album also includes one of Handel's most famous arias - "Ombra Mai Fu" - never was shade so dear - surely the greatest love song ever written to a tree.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SERSE, HWV 40: ARIA: 'OMBRA MAI FU' (2025 REMASTERED)")

HUNT LIEBERSON: (Singing in Italian).

SCHWARTZ: I was lucky to be able to hear Lorraine Hunt Lieberson in person. It's tragic that she was with us for such a short time, yet she's almost as miraculous on this recording as she was on stage.

MOSLEY: Lloyd Schwartz reviewed a newly remastered album of "Handel Arias" sung by Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, accompanied by Harry Bicket and the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment. Lloyd's new book of poems is called "Artur Schnabel and Joseph Szigeti Play Mozart At The Frick Collection - April 4, 1948 - And Other Poems."

If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with director Destin Daniel Cretton about his new film, "Spider-Man: Brand New Day," or with journalist Gil Duran about the circle of Silicon Valley billionaires who feel democracy is in their way and that they should be governing, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.

(SOUNDBITE OF JAMES CARTER'S "AVALON")

MOSLEY: And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations on what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.

(SOUNDBITE OF JAMES CARTER'S "AVALON")

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.