Guest
Host
Related Topics
Transcript
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is comedian Atsuko Okatsuka. Her origin story might sound like the set up for drama. She grew up undocumented, was raised by her grandmother, who she jokes kidnapped her and brought her to the States, as they both dealt with the instability of watching her mother suffer from schizophrenia. But Atsuko has made a career by turning that story on its head, mining it for sharp, hilarious observations about mental illness, identity and navigating adulthood with few life skills. Here she is in her first comedy special "The Intruder," where she reflected on the unconventional family dynamic that shaped her.
(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "ATSUKO OKATSUKA: THE INTRUDER")
ATSUKO OKATSUKA: I've never heard try to look different. No, it was always blend in, Atsuko, blend in. Keep your head down and blend in as much as possible. At least that's what my family would tell me. And then they named me Atsuko Okatsuka.
(LAUGHTER)
OKATSUKA: And then they went on to choose English names for themselves.
(LAUGHTER)
OKATSUKA: I know. Thanks, Mom - or Linda.
(LAUGHTER)
OKATSUKA: That's betrayal, Uncle Paul.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: In her new special on Hulu called "Father," Atsuko goes even further, reflecting on her relationship with her father in Japan, who was largely a distant figure in her life after she moved to the States. In 2022, Atsuko became the second Asian American woman, after Margaret Cho, to release an hour-long comedy special on HBO with "The Intruder." And she became a social media darling a few years ago, thanks to her viral videos and dance challenges, like the one where she walked around LA with her grandmother dancing to Beyonce.
Atsuko Okatsuka, welcome to FRESH AIR.
OKATSUKA: Oh, my gosh, Tonya, it is a pleasure. It's an honor. This is too good to be true.
MOSLEY: Well, it's a pleasure to be sitting in front of you, Atsuko. And I have to ask you about your name and the spelling. So there's a U in both your first name and your last name, but the U is silent.
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: What's your relationship to the letter U because you're always probably correcting people, like, it's silent.
OKATSUKA: Right, right. It's there to trip you...
MOSLEY: (Laughter) Right.
OKATSUKA: ...Up. Because, yeah, I mean, you know, it's a Japanese name. So in Japan, it's not like we're walking around being like the U is silent. There is no U.
MOSLEY: Right.
OKATSUKA: It's just when I saw it spelled out in English when I moved here, I said, really? That's interesting. I guess we'll keep it that way. And then that will be sort of my lifelong story of having to help people figure out how to say it. Yeah.
MOSLEY: So it's interesting. So, when it's written in Japanese, the translation added the U to it.
OKATSUKA: Language is wild. Right. You know what? There's a few more words like this. Various, like, foods, for example, like tempura in English, it's spelled T-E-M...
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: ...P-U-R-A.
MOSLEY: Right.
OKATSUKA: In Japanese, it's ten - T-E-N - pura.
MOSLEY: Tenpura.
OKATSUKA: There's no M.
MOSLEY: Right.
OKATSUKA: Where did that M come from? No idea.
MOSLEY: We just added it.
OKATSUKA: Yeah. You know what it's done for me, as a Japanese immigrant coming to America, when I try to order my own people's food from Japanese people here, they don't understand what I'm trying to order. Does that make sense? Because I'm trying to do it the correct way from Japan.
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: They're like, it's tempura. Yeah.
MOSLEY: (Laughter) Well, your story is incredible. As you mentioned, you immigrated here from Japan. You were born into a Japanese Taiwanese family, spent your early childhood in Japan, moved here to United States when you were 8 years old. Your grandmother basically kidnapped you, and you joke about this, but it sounds pretty traumatic.
OKATSUKA: Yeah. But, you know, what I found about trauma is while you're going through it, you're not going, this is trauma, this is trauma, this is not good.
MOSLEY: Right.
OKATSUKA: I didn't have time to feel that, I'm realizing.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: Yeah. And so, in a strange way, as I, like, processed it over the years, I guess, you know, whether it was, like, depression that I was hitting or - right? - sadness that I was feeling, I didn't know that was maybe the trauma that I was, like, processing. And then, now that it's been really a longer time, and I'm able to joke about it, I've sort of started to heal without even realizing it. Does that make sense?
MOSLEY: Well, it does, because so much of your comedy, it feels like you're working it out on stage. I also want to know, though, about those first years when you arrived here because the three of you, your mother, your grandmother, and you, you arrived and you were staying in your uncle's garage. Was it a real garage? Like, describe this garage.
OKATSUKA: So it was a garage that he then extended for us so that there would be a bedroom attached and then a toilet-shower. And then a kitchen unit in where the cars were originally - would go. Yeah. I don't think that that was legal for him to do...
MOSLEY: Right.
OKATSUKA: ...To deck it out like that, but it happened to be that the garage was, like, behind this, sort of, like, gate that you opened to go to the backyard. So it was kind of hidden away from, you know, the streets.
MOSLEY: You joke when people ask you, like, what's wrong with you? You say, well, I was raised by a 50-year-old woman, when that's your only friend. You have talked about this quite a bit on stage in "This American Life." There's a beautiful episode where you even joke about, like, you know your life is traumatic when Ira Glass calls you...
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: ...And says (laughter)...
OKATSUKA: (Laughter) Oh, yeah.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: ...That it's not good.
MOSLEY: But what did your grandmother tell you about the choice to bring you all here? And really, you spent your childhood in that garage.
OKATSUKA: Yeah. So my grandma and I hadn't really talked about it in depth until kind of Ira Glass, which was just...
MOSLEY: 2023? Was it?
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: Yeah. Just two years ago. I mean, this whole time, I just needed someone to be like, do you want to do it for radio? And I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Now I would like to uncover what's going on.
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: Or else, you know, I'm fine with just not knowing. You know, the truth hurts, right? And so I want to do it not alone. And it helped that I got to do it with Ira and the thousands and thousands of thousands of listeners (laughter)...
MOSLEY: Yes. Yeah.
OKATSUKA: ...Right? At the same time. Then I'm really not alone.
MOSLEY: It wasn't funny, though, you know? I mean, you told it in a very matter-of-fact way, in a very moving way, as well. As someone who is always used to bringing in that little bit of humor into it, what was that like for you to share that story in that way?
OKATSUKA: I would say there's, like, a kind of aura of sadness around me, you know? Because the truth is, my mom, as we're speaking, I can picture her right now. She's sitting upstairs in the house that my uncle owns - my other uncle - and she is laying in bed, and she hasn't left that house in a long, long time. She, you know, doesn't have any friends. She is severely depressed, and all my life, my mom has suffered, and I think about that all the time. As I get to do things like tour and travel, see the world, come to here - the West Side, even - you know, as I go out drinking with friends, my mom can't do any of those things. She's suffering so much, right? And so I have the ability to tap into, I guess, being present and real, especially when dealing with heavy topics, you know? When I'm trying to protect an audience, when I'm trying to protect other people, which is why I became a performer, I love people, and I love the arts because of that, yes, I'm going to do it with humor. People pay tickets to come see me. I'm not going to just tell you sad stories. I'm going to make sure you laugh so you can forget your problems, right?
MOSLEY: It's so interesting you use the word protect as a way to entertain.
OKATSUKA: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what it is. I mean, for me. For me, as a performer, that's what I want people to have is to feel seen by the end of my shows, but also that they got to have a good time because then they're going back to their regular life. And I don't know what that's like.
MOSLEY: What's interesting is your mother was not diagnosed with schizophrenia, you share, until she was much older. She was in her 30s. So growing up, when did you become aware that she was suffering and that maybe she wasn't like other mothers?
OKATSUKA: I think that I was always in denial a little bit. I still am. I still think that - I think this of everyone that is going through mental illness because I think it is true. I truly believe it that, like, however much, you know, there is chemical imbalances going on, underneath that is the real you that loves dancing, if you're my mom. My mom was a ballerina when she was young or loved to put on plays with her neighborhood friends, you know, when she lived in a small village in Taiwan.
You know, whatever your story is, whatever you're into as a person before bipolar or depression or whatever that you have come across, you know, I truly believe that about each person. I knew before I even moved to America - in Japan, all of my classmates, their parents were still together, so I did notice, you know, at, like, school plays or parental meetings, it was always both parents present for all the other kids. When I would go have play dates at their house, too, it was both parents there on the weekends and stuff.
MOSLEY: And so was it your grandmother who would take you to those things?
OKATSUKA: Right. So it would be my grandma. Yeah.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: And, you know, sometimes it would be like whispers, like, who is she bringing this time? Is it grandma?
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: Is her mom going to show up? What's her mom look like? We don't even know. Does she have a dad?
MOSLEY: What would you tell people when they'd ask you about your mom?
OKATSUKA: Well, I remember one time telling my second-grade teacher because she knew that my mom was sick. That was the word I would use. My grandma told me she was sick. And I knew something was off, so I was like, oh, she's sick with something. And, you know, my mom also has seizures. So that was the part that she understood. She was like, oh, wow. She has seizures, and then she'll just fall.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: OK. That's intense. Yeah, I can see why it's hard for her to physically be at the school or get places, you know. I didn't know how to quite describe her mental state - yeah - 'cause you know, I was...
MOSLEY: A kid.
OKATSUKA: A kid, yeah.
MOSLEY: What was revealed in This American Life piece and what you've gone on to reveal is that your grandmother really just wanted to have you. She wanted to protect you, but she knew that maybe circumstances weren't the best in Japan. And she knew your - you alone with your mother maybe wouldn't have been the best. So she brought you here. But I found this really fascinating, this relationship that you all have, because it's such a deep profound relationship. You did this wonderful documentary when you were in college where you documented sort of a day in the life of you and your mom and your grandmother, and you called them Laurel and Hardy.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: And there was sort of a humor there just in watching them do day-to-day activities.
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: But that was, like, a twosome. But in reality, your childhood was a trio. What was your role in that sort of trifecta?
OKATSUKA: Well, you know, I felt like I was super an observer. That's kind of - I didn't really think about it till now, when you brought up, you know, me documenting them, right? So that was in art school where I was, you know, playing with documentary filmmaking, which meant that I was behind the camera when I was filming them. So, you know, being behind the camera, I realized, oh, I was kind of going back to, I guess, my childhood, where I was observing a lot. I was observing my mom, my grandma. So I didn't know how to fit into the picture of the trio quite yet...
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: ...Because, you know, it seemed unstable. I was like, do I go in this trio? Do I want to be a part of this trio? When I was 17, I started dating someone for the first time in my life, and I took off with him, you know, to go live with him. And so I was like, oh, I'm out of here. Here's my new family, this boy. And so it's not until more now that I really know that I love this trio, and I've always been a part of this three-generation peas in a pod.
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is comedian Atsuko Okatsuka. Her new stand-up special "Father" is streaming on Hulu. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today, I am talking to comedian Atsuko Okatsuka. Her new stand-up special "Father" explores what it means to come of age, sometimes later in life, and the sometimes-surreal experience of being a grown up on paper but still trying to figure it all out.
I was thinking about that - your mother's diagnosis and what it was like growing up with her. But she was diagnosed with schizophrenia in her mid-30s. Was that a relief, to know a name for what you had been experiencing throughout your childhood? Did that offer anything to you by the time that happened?
OKATSUKA: Oh, it did not (laughter) because I think I didn't super look into it on my own. I was afraid for more, probably - truth. Yeah.
MOSLEY: What do you mean by that?
OKATSUKA: So I used to go to church when I first got to the States. And my uncle, who we were staying with, and his wife - you know, my aunt and uncle were going to church.
MOSLEY: What kind of church?
OKATSUKA: It was a Chinese Baptist church. And that's how you end up going there - right? - is, like, if you're an immigrant, it's very easy for them to be like, well, you need friends, right?
MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah.
OKATSUKA: And you like free food? I was like, yes, yes.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
OKATSUKA: Do - we do outings. Sometimes we go, you know, play basketball at the park. I like that. So, yeah, I ended up there. And, you know, because of that - and then I became super Christian - right? - like, on my own. I think, you know - right? - I needed something to believe in or something. It was community, all these things. And I was still confused about why we didn't go back to Japan...
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: ...And my mom's condition and then that garage. So I took it very seriously to the point I even, like, signed up for Jesus camp on my own. Usually, you know, churches sign up together.
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: Like, the youth group will sign up together. One year, nobody from my church signed up, but I was like, I'm going to do it on my own because that's how much of a believer I am.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: What an insane thing. I had no group representing me. It was just me on my own. And so I went. And I remember at the camp, there were, like, these prayer groups and prayer meetings we would break off into. And one night, it was, like, me and, like, 30 people in a prayer group. And I asked for them to pray for my mom, pray for my mom to get better, you know, to be freed from the voices in her head and all these things - from the suffering, from severe depression, from the seizures, from feeling so isolated and down all the time. And then I remember, like, when 30 people are praying for you out loud...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: ...And you're, like, in Big Bear, it's almost like a vacation, right? We were outdoors overlooking, like, forests and mountains. It was so beautiful.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: I truly thought that it was going to work - when I go home, she's going to be healed.
MOSLEY: So by the time your mother got that diagnosis, where were you in that realm? Had she already gotten the diagnosis, or did that come later?
OKATSUKA: Well, at the time - I'm trying to remember when I found out that she - you know, I remember seeing the word schizophrenia because I asked my grandma to write out what it is that the doctor said she has. My uncle, who is a OB-GYN in Taiwan, is the one that helped figure it out. And my grandma wrote out the word. I think that was after this Jesus camp incident, because when I came home, I was super disappointed that she had not changed - right? - and feeling really down and hopeless. So I think by the time I saw that word schizophrenia on a napkin, that that's what my mom had, I was like, would it even help to even figure out what that is? Because, like, the prayers didn't help.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: Like, what would help? Because till this day, you know, she still hears voices.
MOSLEY: Even with medication?
OKATSUKA: I mean, yeah. We had to choose. Do we treat the seizures more or the voices more? Because those two kinds of medications cancel each other out.
MOSLEY: Oh.
OKATSUKA: So we decided to treat the seizures more because that's more, you know, immediately fatal and scarier, just because it's physical.
MOSLEY: What a choice to have to make. Did you ever try to make your mom laugh growing up?
OKATSUKA: I did, yeah. But for a big chunk of my life, I was very scared of her, so I would try to avoid her. Sometimes I would entertain her.
MOSLEY: What did that look like?
OKATSUKA: So I would take, like, toys that I had in the house. I would give her one, and I would have the other one. And we would sort of play out scenarios where maybe we're battling bad people that are coming to us, you know? Get them over here, to the left, to the right, Mom - behind us - we're surrounded. I don't know, we were always surrounded by evil spirits. I don't know. And so I would fight it off with her. And, you know, that was one way we could hang out was pretending there were other things going on, instead of just us, you know, sitting down for a chat or whatever.
MOSLEY: You found out while dating your husband - was it very early on? - that his mother also has schizophrenia.
OKATSUKA: Yes.
MOSLEY: I can imagine there are things that you all just don't even have to say to each other, that you sort of just know implicitly through your actions, through your decisions and things like that. When did that become clear to you that, not only do we both share in this same experience of having a mother, but there are things that now I see in you and you see in me that maybe you hadn't seen in anyone else before?
OKATSUKA: Yeah, that's very true. And, you know, I saw glimpses of it very early on, right? We both love to entertain. We both love to make other people laugh.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: He's very funny, my husband. And he's a natural caretaker, too. For example, he tours with me. He makes sure that I don't feel left out by making sure other people can pronounce my name, things like that...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: ...That he'll do for me on the road.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: And then, you know, on one of our earlier dates, we were having drinks outside. It was, like, a bar with a patio outside. And there was an unhoused man who was talking to himself and kind of scaring the people at the bar.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: And I knew what was going on with him, you know? And my husband - I think it was our second date. I should've known, because it wasn't until, like, our third date that we found out we had this in common. But he knew how to deal with it, too. He was also a manager at a coffee shop. So, you know, people were kind of scared of this man kind of stumbling - and is he going to walk into this establishment, whatever? My husband knew to, like, look at him calmly and sort of talk him, you know, out of, like, being in that area, but, you know, very kindly.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: Because we know that's schizophrenia...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: ...That's going on.
MOSLEY: My guest is comedian Atsuko Okatsuka. Her new stand-up special, "Father," starts streaming on Hulu later this week. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PARTITION")
BEYONCE: Give me some. (Rapping) See me up in the club with fifty-'leven girls. Posted in the back, diamond fangs in my grill. Brooklyn brim, with my eyes sitting low. Every boy in here with me got that smoke, and every girl in here got to look me up and down. All on Instagram, cake by the pound. Circulate the image every time I come around.
(SOUNDBITE OF DAVE HOLLAND QUINTET'S "NOT FOR NOTHIN'")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And today, we are talking to comedian Atsuko Okatsuka. Her new stand-up special, "Father," premieres on Hulu later this week. In it, she reflects on delayed adulthood, the pressures of family expectations and what it means to take on a father role while the world sees her as Mother, which is a nod to how her fans have claimed her as a nurturing presence in comedy.
Her material often draws from her own life, which includes immigrating to the U.S. from Japan as a child with her mother and grandmother and spending several years undocumented. Okatsuka began doing stand-up in small clubs around Los Angeles, often folding her background in theater and performance art. In 2022, her HBO special "The Intruder" marked a milestone. She became only the second Asian American woman, after Margaret Cho, to headline a stand-up special for the network. She's known for her off-kilter timing, her physicality and her ability to blend absurdism with grounded storytelling.
I want to talk a little bit about this latest stand-up special because you talk about reconnecting with your father in it, and he's always lived in Japan. So essentially, you grew up here in the States, in LA, where you all arrived without him. And I want to talk more about that in a moment, but he has brought up the idea of you and your husband having children. And I want to play a clip. Here's what you had to say about that in the special.
(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "ATSUKO OKATSUKA: FATHER")
OKATSUKA: I have reconnected with my dad, and we're very close. But he really wants me to have kids because he thinks that's how you undo a traumatic past.
(LAUGHTER)
OKATSUKA: And I always have to be like, oh, Dad. I think our family should stop.
(LAUGHTER)
OKATSUKA: I think w should stop. In fact, Ryan has a vasectomy scheduled for the end of the year.
UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Woo.
OKATSUKA: Yes. Oh, yes, yes. Thank you. Thank you. I booked it.
(LAUGHTER)
OKATSUKA: Thank you. Thank you.
MOSLEY: That was my guest today, Atsuko Okatsuka, in her new Hulu comedy special, "Father." What I love about that is that it's very singular 'cause it's your experience, but I think that a lot of people can also feel that way. Like, we're not passing down this generational trauma here.
OKATSUKA: Right.
MOSLEY: But was not having children something that you always knew for yourself that you didn't want, or did that come with you and Ryan together making that decision based on your history?
OKATSUKA: It's something I never really wanted, you know? And then Ryan happened to feel the same way, too. So when we came together, it was an easy thing to, you know, come to a conclusion about. We were just like, this is how we feel.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Margaret Cho - you tell the story about how being at this Baptist church...
OKATSUKA: Right.
MOSLEY: ...Someone gave you a DVD. Did they give you that DVD because they already could see you were funny, or was it just a coincidence?
OKATSUKA: Yeah. We would joke around a lot about stuff and, you know, she said - she was older than me, this girl who passed me the DVD.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: Yeah. And she said, I think you'll like this.
MOSLEY: Yeah?
OKATSUKA: And she gave me an example of a joke that Margaret Cho had, which was, oh, she - you know, she's really prolific. It's - she has a joke about how, like, you know, Hello Kitty, you know? She's Hello Kitty. That's her name, but she doesn't have a mouth. So how does she say hello? - or something like that.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: And I was like, whoa, that's - you know, as a kid, I found that to be so funny and neat. Yeah. I think it's because she saw that I would enjoy it.
MOSLEY: Many years later, you're face-to-face with Margaret Cho. I was really touched. I think she said about you that when she looks at you, from the moment she first became acquainted with your work, that you just knew who you were immediately because she didn't know. And I think that's just - she didn't know for herself when she first started off. I think that's so powerful because you know who you are in part because you were able to see her do it.
OKATSUKA: Oh, for sure. Without Margaret Cho, there's no me. There's - without even Bobby Lee...
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: ...Who is one of the firsts. Without Jo Koy, you know, there wouldn't be me. Without a lot of people, right? And we can go on with the list. Without Anna May Wong, who is an actress and...
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: ...Not a comedian, but there wouldn't be me. Yeah. It's - we talk about the firsts. You said, you know, in 2025, there's still the first to do this and the second to do this. Margaret really was the first Asian American female stand-up. And they were mean to her. They were not kind. She talks about it in her stand-up, from having eating disorders to having to audition for her own TV sitcom, for her own character, only for them to say, you're too fat. So go lose weight. What - that - what does that do to a person? And I've really - I watched her go through it, but look at - I mean, to still be doing it and crushing it, too, and she's my friend, that's - yeah, it's truly an honor to know her.
MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is comedian Atsuko Okatsuka. Her new Hulu stand-up special is called "Father." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE BAD PLUS' "THE BEAUTIFUL ONES (INSTRUMENTAL)")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and today I am talking to comedian Atsuko Okatsuka. He new stand-up special, "Father," explores what it means to come of age, sometimes later in life, and the sometimes surreal experience of being a grown-up on paper but still trying to figure it all out.
One of the things I think I heard you say is that there's a three-prong approach to your comedy. It's your voice, it's the material and it's also what you do with your body when you're standing on the stage...
OKATSUKA: Right.
MOSLEY: ...That each of those by themselves, you actually don't think is kind of funny. You think it's, like, all three of those things that is actually the magic.
OKATSUKA: It's the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
OKATSUKA: Yeah. I guess so, right, yeah. That's how I express myself.
MOSLEY: How did you discover that, especially when it comes to your aesthetic? I mean, your fashion game is what you are known for secondary to you being funny. You wear these bright, beautiful colors. Your hair is on point.
OKATSUKA: I mean...
MOSLEY: Like, how did you come to that look? Had you always been a fashion person?
OKATSUKA: I don't think I was. I used to even wear, like, my grandma's clothes as a kid, whatever she got her hands on.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: And, you know, when someone 50 years older than you is dressing you...
MOSLEY: (Laughter) Yeah.
OKATSUKA: ...Sometimes it was like, plaid on plaid on plaid? What is going on? Or her idea of what a kid would wear? So sometimes it was like Hello Kitty top, Hello Kitty pants, bright red shoes, polka-dotted shoelaces, right? And I think the randomness of that was kind of - it pushed me to, you know, be out there looking wild. So I think when I finally started trying to tailor my look maybe 10 years ago, I was able to be more bold because it's like, hey, I used to wear grandma's slacks - you know what I mean? - to school, so...
MOSLEY: Right, I can wear anything.
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Where did the bowl haircut come from?
OKATSUKA: Well, this bowl cut - in history? I don't know.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
OKATSUKA: Was it - is it the...
MOSLEY: No, it is your bowl haircut.
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: I'm like, did friars?
MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah.
OKATSUKA: I feel like friars had this - right? - in like, Europe or something?
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: But they would keep the middle bald.
MOSLEY: But I noticed in the documentary with your mom and grandma, you had a different cut.
OKATSUKA: Right.
MOSLEY: You had, like, sort of emo-look going on?
OKATSUKA: (Laughter) I know, gosh.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: 'Cause I was behind the camera. When I was a kid, I had this bowl cut, too. A lot of Asian kids have it when they're a kid. And I do love fashion, and I love the arts, and so I love, like, looking like a art gallery owner a little bit. But also, you know, a lot of Asians say, hey, I had the haircut as a kid. It was a nightmare. Everyone made fun of me. I think it's so ugly. And I like challenging that a little bit to be like, well, the things that made me feel like a freak...
MOSLEY: Right.
OKATSUKA: ...Right? - I'm going to own. Now I get to choose my own look, right?
MOSLEY: And it's chic now.
OKATSUKA: And it's fashion.
MOSLEY: I know.
OKATSUKA: Right. And people show up wearing wigs of my bowl cut to my shows now. I've started a movement.
MOSLEY: I'm thinking about you as a little girl, wearing your grandma's clothes. And I want to play a clip from your latest special "Father," where you talk about growing up the way you did. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "ATSUKO OKATSUKA: FATHER")
OKATSUKA: 'Cause I grew up with some kids, some classmates, whose parents blindly supported them growing up. And they are pretty well-adjusted people.
(LAUGHTER)
OKATSUKA: Are they interesting? No.
(LAUGHTER)
OKATSUKA: Are they on stage right now? No.
(APPLAUSE)
OKATSUKA: Those people will never be on stage. You know why? You know why? Because they don't have a hole in their heart that they had to fill with the validation of strangers.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: That was my guest, Atsuko Okatsuka, and her new Hulu special "Father." And we talked about this whole idea about, like, how, you know, stand-up is for people who don't want to process their feelings...
OKATSUKA: Oh, sure.
MOSLEY: ...Which you said. But how did you get into comedy? How did you decide this was a career that you wanted to get into? You left home, living with this boyfriend. You decide to go to college. And how did comedy become the direction?
OKATSUKA: Well, yeah, I - you know, so that boyfriend and I broke up, and then I was dating my teacher from a community college that I was going to - the community college I was going to. And it was him. You know, other comedians have asked me, how did you find comedy or how did you find music...
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: ...If you didn't have older siblings?
MOSLEY: Because music's a big part of your...
OKATSUKA: Right
MOSLEY: ...Of your life, too.
OKATSUKA: Yeah. But my mom and grandma didn't listen to music in the - when we were growing up in the garage. It was just silence. My grandma will cook to silence. My grandma will live in silence. My mom, too. It was just me trying out things on TV, just whatever I found. That's what I would be influenced by. Or my classmates - I would hear them talk about, like, Spice Girls or something. In the household, there wasn't a lot of, like, pop culture going on. So there was no way I thought it could be me.
When I watched Margaret Cho on the DVD, I was like, this is neat. I didn't know this was a job. That's so cool. I love that she does this. This is good for her. Awesome. I love that this exists. But I never thought, that's going to be me one day. I didn't have the self-confidence. I didn't dare to dream big. At the time, they really made you feel like there was only 20 comedians at a time.
MOSLEY: Yeah. So how did it happen? You were in college. Was it a class?
OKATSUKA: It was a filmmaking class. And then me and my teacher started dating. It was not very healthy, to be honest. But because he was older, you know - I was 19 and he was older. He just knew comedy, and he said, oh, you're very funny. Have you thought about doing stand-up? And I was like, I know stand-up. I love stand-up. I love watching it, but, oh, gosh, no one's ever told me.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: And so then I decided to try taking it. I found a class on Craigslist for women because I didn't think going to open mics would be how I would excel. It was mostly guys, and they were very late at night. Sometimes it's like 10 p.m. to 2 in the morning, sometimes, you're waiting to get up on stage. And then you're coming out to dark alleys. I was like, that's how you go missing, right?
MOSLEY: Right.
OKATSUKA: So I...
MOSLEY: Do you remember that first set, what you joked about?
OKATSUKA: Yes, I do. Yeah. I remember one of my first jokes.
MOSLEY: What was it? Yeah.
OKATSUKA: It's - oh, this guy found out I was Japanese, and he said, Japanese, huh? Oh, well, I have a really good friend who works at Mitsubishi. Do you know Gary (ph)? And I go, Gary? No. No, I don't know Gary. I know Tom (ph). That was my first joke.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: So much of your comedy is - it's light and observational, but there is an element where you're also subversive, where you are sitting in your identity as an Asian American woman. But yet, you're also, like, challenging the stereotypes. There was this video on social media where it's you and several Asian American celebrities, and you're asked about inside clothes and wearing your shoes inside. And everyone's like, never wear your shoes inside. I always change my clothes when I lay in the bed, except for you. You come at the end, and you say, oh, yeah, I walk around my house with my shoes, and I go get under the covers with my outside clothes on (laughter).
OKATSUKA: Yes. Yes, that was me. I cannot believe you found it. Tonya, you are trying to cancel me. And - no, but that is out there. And (laughter)...
MOSLEY: But it - the reason why it's so funny, actually, is because, while you're leaning into who you are, you're also, like, really giving us another lens into what it means to be an Asian American. Because we start off thinking about those early Asian American comedians and the things that often they were pushed and forced into, and then here you are talking about here's what I'm not.
OKATSUKA: Thank you so much. I couldn't have said it better myself.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
OKATSUKA: And that is why I still wear shoes in the house sometimes and outside clothes on the bed.
MOSLEY: Did you get some hate from that (laughter)?
OKATSUKA: Yeah, people were like, jail, jail, put her in jail. But, you know, yes, I didn't have a conventional upbringing. So there's various reasons why, you know, shoes in the house became a thing. Like, you know, my grandma is 90 now, OK? And, you know, they both wear diapers, my mom and grandma. And so we just found it easier to wear shoes, for example, you know, around the house. Yeah, it's just, you know, no family is the same. No Asians are the same. We're not a monolith.
MOSLEY: Of course.
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is comedian Atsuko Okatsuka. Her new stand-up special, "Father," streaming on Hulu. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF JASON MORAN'S "BIG STUFF")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And today, I am talking to comedian Atsuko Okatsuka. Her new stand-up special, "Father," explores what it means to come of age sometimes later in life, and the sometimes-surreal experience of being a grown-up on paper but still trying to figure it all out.
You produced this documentary we were talking about where you followed your mother and grandmother. We got to see some of the realities of their lives. And one of the things that really struck me is that, as you said, like, your mom's always on your mind. And as they age, I wonder how you are - how are you dealing with it?
OKATSUKA: It's something I think I'm thinking about as I - you know, I'm touring with my new show after "Father." And those are the things I'm actually talking about more because I am going through it and thinking about, you know, my grandma's mortality, for example, because she is 91. And, you know, she's getting physically sick a lot more. I gave her a bath for the first time recently. You know, I'm learning these new things.
MOSLEY: Yes.
OKATSUKA: And so it is something I'm thinking about. And more and more, I think you could see that. Like, on my socials, my social media, we're not able to do those videos as much anymore. They're more tired. And it was a fun family time, it used to be for us.
MOSLEY: Yeah, right.
OKATSUKA: My grandma looked forward to it, dancing and stuff. But she doesn't have the energy as much anymore. So, yeah, I'm in that phase that you were talking about where you're like, oh - when maybe there's trauma happening, you don't know it yet. So in a year, it'll be funny, or I'll be able to talk about it, right? But right now, you know, it's like, I got my therapist. And then, you know, we're figuring out more medical stuff with my mom and, you know, medical stuff with grandma, too. Yeah.
MOSLEY: Tell me about this new show.
OKATSUKA: Well, this new show, it is about, like, you know, caretaking. And now I have a - (laughter) I also recently met my brother for the first time.
MOSLEY: Your brother from who?
OKATSUKA: My dad's side, because my dad's side is full of surprises, too. I'm finding (laughter).
MOSLEY: And I just realized we might've, like, skipped right past this after I mentioned your father. But when you moved here at 8, you lived with your mom and your grandmother. And you had so many questions...
OKATSUKA: Right.
MOSLEY: ...In your mind about your father. Why didn't he intervene and stop you from coming here to the States? Even when you all forged a relationship, you never asked those questions until you were on This American Life. And he shared with you that he felt that maybe it was best for you to be with your mom and grandmother, but he felt a lot of pain about it.
OKATSUKA: Right. Right.
MOSLEY: But he had two children older than you when you were born from a previous marriage.
OKATSUKA: Right, and I didn't even mention the third one. There's another brother, and that's the brother I met recently. There's an oldest brother that was also from his first marriage before my mom, and that brother was taken from him, too (laughter). So, yeah, my dad's gone through a lot. But so this past Christmas, when I went to go see my dad, I got to meet this brother, too, for the first time. They had also reunited for the first time in decades, and me and my brother got to meet. And so I talk about that in this show, too.
MOSLEY: This new show.
OKATSUKA: That's right.
MOSLEY: Can you say publicly what this new show is yet, or is it still under wraps?
OKATSUKA: Oh, yeah. No, I'm touring it now. I just came out with a tour title. It's just called The Big Bowl Tour, where my bowl cut is...
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
OKATSUKA: ...Four times bigger than it is right now in the poster. Yeah, and in it, I really talk about going back home to Japan, you know, and this reconnection with my brother as well.
MOSLEY: How do you brace yourself for these surprises? Because, you know, I think when we turn 18, we turn 21, we kind of - we know who we are. We're set. We understand our origin story. But your origin story keeps evolving.
OKATSUKA: (Laughter) Yeah, I know, because people be wild. No one was ready to have a kid is what I'm realizing, right? All of our parents, everyone was improvising - hence secrets, right? And so, how do I embrace it? Oh, my gosh, in my unhinged ways, right? So when my dad, you know, was like, well, your brother is here in Japan, and we just reconnected - would you want to meet him? I said, every time I come back to Japan, it's, like, a new piece of information.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: What is up with my family? What is up with you guys? I have a - every time, I have a new sibling?
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: OK. Yes, of course, I want to meet him. But I said, if we're going to meet, do something dramatic like that, it's got to be under my terms.
MOSLEY: What were your terms?
OKATSUKA: We're going to meet at a ninja-samurai theme park...
MOSLEY: What?
OKATSUKA: ...Near my brother, where my brother lives near.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: And so he lives in Nikko, which is, like, a few hours away from Tokyo.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: And I said, you know, there's a ninja-samurai theme park that I want to go back and revisit. It's really fun. It's mostly, like, 12-year-old kids and white guys that go.
MOSLEY: How did you know about it? Was it a place you knew before, and you're like, I got to get there?
OKATSUKA: I went there once with my dad when I was, like, 20.
MOSLEY: Oh, OK. Yeah. Yeah.
OKATSUKA: When I got my green card and I could go visit him finally, I went and we went to that park together. And this time, I had Ryan with me. I was like, I want to enjoy, you know, this, you know, running away from, like, ninja actors and samurai scare actors. And there's a performance every 30 minutes. There's a lot going on where I was like, we will never really have to communicate.
MOSLEY: You can meet your brother, but you guys don't have to deal in feelings.
OKATSUKA: That's right. Yeah, it's me running away from feelings. Yeah.
MOSLEY: I was just wondering - like, you know, that saying, laugh to keep from crying. It's my favorite saying. But this moment that you're in right now, where you are dealing with your aging mom and grandmother and all the realities of that and yet you're also in this show and making jokes about it, is there ever an in-between of you processing where you are crying so that you can get to the laugh?
OKATSUKA: Oh. Oh, yeah. More lately, you know, with the career sort of going and, you know, in a fast pace with the touring. When I'm touring, I'm away from the family. It feels like the opposite of what I was trying to do. But because I tour, I can make money, you know, so that - medical bills are not cheap.
MOSLEY: 'Cause you're paying for all of it.
OKATSUKA: I've got two elders.
MOSLEY: Yup.
OKATSUKA: They're in diapers.
MOSLEY: Yup.
OKATSUKA: And so, yeah, it's - I've cried more than before in the past. And I didn't cry - I don't cry a lot. If you ask my husband to describe me or ask him how often I cry, he'll say, like, oh, gosh, maybe, like, twice a year, right? But that's already a lot for me. And I've surpassed that this year, I would say. So yeah, this is definitely - while I'm writing this new show about, like, some of it being about caretaking...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: ...I'm definitely going through the cries right now.
MOSLEY: I'm listening to you, and I'm just thinking about - wow - I mean, how far we've come, not only just you, but just in general, that, like, your mother suffered for so long not knowing, not having a diagnosis.
OKATSUKA: Right.
MOSLEY: And now we're in this moment where every little bit of our day-to-day feelings, emotions, we can clock, we can kind of dissect.
OKATSUKA: I know.
MOSLEY: We can find a solution for.
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Do you think about that often? How does that feel to be like, you have control over yourself?
OKATSUKA: Yeah. That's something I talked about with Ryan, my husband, recently, and I got really sad thinking about it, actually, where I go, oh, I wish, you know, the people before us got this, you know? I just wish, you know, our parents or grandparents, all of them got to do this. I always think, gosh, the people before us were so strong, you know? - the matriarchs. Like, you're alive? What? I would have ran into a tree a long time ago. You know, so it's cool that we have these things. I have apps that can help us meditate and things like that. We didn't - they didn't have that back then.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
OKATSUKA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Atsuko Okatsuka, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
OKATSUKA: Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having me.
MOSLEY: Atsuko Okatsuka's new stand-up special is called "Father." It debuts on Hulu June 13. And she's currently performing her new stand-up as part of her Big Bowl Tour.
Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, Molly Jong-Fast on her memoir. She writes about the issues she faced as the daughter of the famous novelist Erica Jong. It's also about the worst year in her life - 2023 - when her husband was diagnosed with metastasized pancreatic cancer and she put her mother and stepfather in a nursing home because of their dementia. Jong-Fast is a political analyst for MSNBC. I hope you can join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF JONAH DAVID'S "RHYTHM-A-NING")
MOSLEY: To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper, and our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF JONAH DAVID'S "RHYTHM-A-NING")
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.