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Dom Flemons Holds On To Those Old-Time Roots

Prospect Hill is Flemons' first album since leaving the band Carolina Chocolate Drops. By coincidence, the multi-instrumentalist recorded the album the day Pete Seeger died.


Other segments from the episode on September 1, 2014

Fresh Air with Terry Gross, September 1, 2014: Interview with Dom Flemons; Review of Little Feat's new box set "Rad Gumbo";


September 1st 2014

Guest: Dom Flemons

DOM FLEMONS: (Scat singing). Oh, yeah.


That got my attention when I first played Dom Flemons' new album, "Prospect Hill." It's his first album since leaving the Carolina Chocolate Drops, a Grammy Award-winning group, extending the tradition of African American string bands of the 1920s and '30s. Flemons sings and plays guitar, banjo, bones, harmonica, fife and jug. His new solo album reflects his interest in old-timey music, blues, early jazz and rhythm and blues. The album also includes a couple of original songs. Flemons grew up in Arizona and now lives in North Carolina. He brought several of his instruments with him when he joined us in July to perform some songs.


GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.


GROSS: Dom Flemons, welcome to FRESH AIR.

FLEMONS: Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you for having me again, Terry.

GROSS: So I want to start by asking you to play a song, and it's a song that's on your new album. The song is called "My Money Never Runs Out." Tell us a little bit about the song before you play it.

FLEMONS: Well, "My Money Never Runs Out" - it was originally recorded by a fellow by the name of Gus Cannon, who went by the name of Banjo Joe. He was a black banjo player and a songster, and he also was a fellow who performed in blackface. So he was a black fellow who played in blackface. And so he had a very unique repertoire that reflected the popular music of the 1890s into the First World War.

GROSS: Some people wouldn't touch music that had anything to do with blackface.

FLEMONS: Well, you know, the - Gus Cannon's music is very interesting in the way that he was part of that generation that retained a lot of the same repertoire, but they took out words like coon and, you know, of course, the N-word and darky. And they took all those particular words out of the songs, even though they retained the musical material. So Gus Cannon was part of that. And he was kind of, like, in the - kind of, like, the lower rungs of the music industry, compared to people like Bert Williams who were on the top rungs.

GROSS: So do the song for us. It's called "My Money Never Runs Out." Oh - well, after it's over, I'll ask you to tell us about the banjo you're playing on. (Laughing).

FLEMONS: Oh, sure thing.


FLEMONS: All right. Here's a little of "My Money Never Runs Out." OK.


FLEMONS: (Singing) Now there's a certain yellow joker living around this town. He's just as lazy as lazy can be. Now, as long as they flirt, boys, he hangs around. I love my hops, says he. Early one morning, this joker ran away - to roam the world, was said. I believe I'll go back to bed, man, and give up my head. I don't care if I never wake up. Yes, I don't care if I never wake up. Tell the birds it's through with me. Now, I'm coming around here with my big Ford. I'm going to run them up a tree. Nothing like living like a money king. Drink from a silver cup. I eat pork and pears. I eat out of (unintelligible). I don't care if I never wake up. Yes, yes. Now if my money, boys, was stacked high, I believe my soul would touch the sky. I polish people in the diamond dust, man. I don't care if this banjo plays 'cause my money don't never run out. You rich fools, you're all making me shout. Every good evening, this sweet old toast, I shout. Yes, I'm living a good old time. Don't take no beer and no cheap wine. And I always flirt 'cause my money don't never run out.

GROSS: That's Dom Flemons performing in our studio. And he does that song in his new album, which is called "Prospect Hill." It is so much fun to hear that and so educational to hear it, too. So I'm going to ask you to pick the banjo back up and tell us about it. And was the style that you were playing a style that Gus Cannon originated?

FLEMONS: Well, this style I was playing in is my own adaptation of Gus Cannon's style. See, he played with a five-string banjo. And when I started playing, I started with four strings. I had a good friend of mine who passed me a five-string banjo that he had taken the fifth string out of.

So I learned how to play all the songs I knew on guitar on the banjo. So, you know, I used to play songs like this - a song like "Me And Julio Down By The Schoolyard" by Paul Simon. So, you know, I'd do it more frantic in like a...


FLEMONS: (Singing) Well, Mama Pajama rolled out of bed, and she went to the police station. Papa found out and began to shout, and he started the investigation. It was against the law. It was against the law. What the mama saw was against the law. Well, mama turned around and spit on the ground every time my name gets mentioned. Papa said, oy, if I get that boy, I'm going to stick him in the house of detention. Well, I'm on my way. I don't know where I'm going. I'm on my way. I'm taking my time, but I don't know where. Goodbye to Rosie, the Queen of Corona. See you, me and Julio down by the schoolyard. See you, me and Julio down by the schoolyard.


GROSS: That's really great. That's so much fun. So that's how you learned to play banjo - by adapting, like, rock songs and stuff like that?

FLEMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I used to just take all sorts of different stuff, and I'd experiment on the banjo or the guitar. And then I found out about open D tuning, open G tuning on the guitar. And I found that I could take different techniques I learned on the banjo, put them on the guitar. And then I worked them the other way round, doing stuff on the guitar onto the banjo. And that gave me - it gave me my own sort of way of looking at the material so when I got into old-timey music - a lot of the stuff is based on those same sort of notes and chord shapes and stuff like that. So I began to form my own style based on that.

GROSS: So what first got you interested in the kind of music that you're playing now, which is music of the '20s and the '30s and music as if it was from the '20s and '30s - playing more contemporary things in the manner of the '20s and '30s?

FLEMONS: Well, I mean, it started out with my interest in oldies and...

GROSS: By oldies, you mean like doo-wop and stuff?

FLEMONS: Like doo-wop, '60s rock, '60s pop music, '50s rock and roll. I also really loved a lot of documentaries, and so I watched a lot about these different styles of music.

GROSS: So you were already out of your period.

FLEMONS: Yeah, I was. And when I - just when I started, I was...

GROSS: 'Cause you're - what? - in your thirties?

FLEMONS: Yeah, I'm 30 - 31 this year.


FLEMONS: And, yeah, I just started pushing toward these styles that weren't particularly contemporary at the time. I also listened to other stuff, like - I listened to, like, Green Day when they first came out or Sublime and, you know, just kind of groups like that. But acoustic music at that time - there just wasn't a whole bunch of it, unless like a rock singer decided to do an acoustic-y ballad number - something like that - or adult contemporary acoustic music.

And so when I heard Bob Dylan's first record, the self-titled "Bob Dylan" one, that really blew my mind - made me think about guitar and harmonica, so I started doing that. I started learning, you know, just everything I could hear on the radio. I'm also a curious enough person, so when I got into records, I'd see these greatest hits albums of these doo-wop groups. And I just would look up each of the groups. I'd look up - who were The Spaniels? What sort of songs do they do?

And yeah, I just - I'm just a sort of studious sort of person that's into that sort of stuff. So I just was doing that for four or five years. I was busking out on the streets. I was playing at the folk coffee houses in Phoenix, and I was going to college in Flagstaff. And so I just always kept all that stuff going. So when I went to the Black Banjo Gathering, I had all this knowledge in my head about how different types of...

GROSS: The Black Banjo Gathering.


GROSS: And that is?

FLEMONS: That was - that was an event in Boone, North Carolina, in 2005. And that was where I met Rhiannon Giddens and Justin Robinson, and we started the Carolina Chocolate Drops after that. And so that was - that was - you know, at that time, I was just making up a style of playing music.

And so then I had another transition point, where when I move to the South, I learned a whole bunch more about Southern music. I started to work with the Music Maker Relief Foundation, and I got to learn about why the music sounds the way it does. And so I learned those sort of little lessons in my own heart. And so over time, I've tried to develop my own style.

GROSS: And you have.

FLEMONS: Oh, I appreciate it, Terry. (Laughing).

GROSS: And it's a very eclectic style. (Laughing) So if you're just joining us, my guest is musician and singer and songwriter Dom Flemons. And he used to be with the Carolina Chocolate Drops, but he's now solo, and he's performing a lot of music from the '20s and '30s and onward. And his new album is called "Prospect Hill." Let's take a short break. And then we'll talk some more, and Don Flemons will perform more for us. This is FRESH AIR.


GROSS: This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist, banjo player, bones player, et cetera, Dom Flemons. Dom used to be with the Carolina Chocolate Drops, a string band, and now he's solo. And he performs a lot of music from the '20s and '30s, but also performs a lot of more contemporary music in the manner of that period. So I'd like you to perform another song that you do on your new album, and the song is called, "Have I Stayed Away Too Long?" And I have to tell you that when I heard the song, I knew that it had first been performed by Blind James Campbell 'cause you'd said that in the liner notes. And I assumed he wrote that, too.

FLEMONS: Oh, it's - the funny thing that I found was that he didn't write it.

GROSS: No, I couldn't believe it when I read who wrote it, when I looked more carefully. Frank Loesser wrote it. And he wrote "Guys And Dolls," and...


GROSS: You didn't know that?

FLEMONS: No. See, I saw the name, and I recognized it. But I just assumed he was, like, one of the major Nashville country guys.

GROSS: Oh, no.

FLEMONS: Oh, he wrote "Guys And Dolls."

GROSS: He wrote the musicals "Guys And Dolls," "How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying." He wrote a beautiful, almost, like, opera, which is called "Most Happy Fella." He wrote "Baby, It's Cold Outside" and a gazillion songs. So I - anyways, why don't you play the song your style? And then we'll talk a little bit more about it.

FLEMONS: All right. Well, here we go with "Have I Stayed Away Too Long?"


FLEMONS: (Singing) Have I stayed away too long? Have I stayed away too long? Now, if I came home tonight, would you still be my darling? Or have I stayed away too long? Long-distance, out of town. Call me the worry lad. Maybe I don't want to hurry back. Now, I'd just stay out of town. Worry you no more. I know you found someone else to make you care. Now, all my dreams have gone wrong. My beautiful dreams have gone wrong. Now, if I came home tonight, would you still be my darling? Or have I stayed away too long?

GROSS: So that's my guest Dom Flemons performing in our studio. And he does that song also on his new album, which is called "Prospect Hill." When we left off, right before you started playing that song, we were talking about how it was written by Frank Loesser. And you said, you'd assumed he was one of the Nashville songwriters. And, in fact, Tex Ritter, I think, had a hit with the song.

But I went on iTunes to see who else recorded it. Perry Como recorded it. (Laughing) So I listened to a little of the Perry Como version. It's like 180 degrees different from what you did. It's like a slow ballad and, you know, kind of middle-of-the-road, and...

FLEMONS: Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny 'cause the first - the first version I heard was the one on the Blind James Campbell record. And I had no idea that it was - it was recorded by anybody else. And so as I was putting the publishing together on the record - you know, you have to get the songwriter's name and everything - then I started finding out all the other versions that had been done of it. And it's really different - what Blind James Campbell - and then for me, hearing it, I tried to put a Hank Williams or a honky-tonk sort of flavor onto it - or even also like a Big Joe Turner, that sort of a feel on the song. So that's such a - spins around in a whole bunch of different circles.

GROSS: So you sing a lot of songs that you've learned over the years. You collect songs as well as recordings.

FLEMONS: Oh, yes.

GROSS: And you, I'm sure, know a gazillion songs. But you write songs as well. And you wrote a song that really sounds like almost an answer song to the song that you just did. The song you just did asks the question, have I stayed away too long? And the song that you wrote is called, "Too Long I've Been Gone," as if answering the question. Yep, I have stayed away too long. Would you do an excerpt of that song for us, and maybe tell us what inspired the song? Did the song we just heard inspired this song?

FLEMONS: Oh, no. This song was - I wrote "Too Long I've Been Gone" maybe about a year and a half ago. I was just sitting in the hotel room one day, and I just started musing on the idea of when you're traveling a bunch, how lonesome you can get just for - you know, the same thing - Paul Simon did the same thing in, you know...


FLEMONS: (Singing) Every day is an endless stream of cigarettes and magazines - on "Homeward Bound."

It was kind of a song like that. I tried to reach into the - make a folk song that would be - that would, you know, be a nice little message in there. I didn't want to get too deep on it. Like, this whole album was an exercise for me to cut back on any excess things I was doing. And for "Too Long I've Been Gone," I had about two more verses. But I cut all of them out because I felt like it told the whole story. So I'll play little bit of this one here.

GROSS: Thank you.


FLEMONS: (Singing) Don't need no cup of coffee in the morning. I can get up fine. I can get up fine. Delia is a pretty girl, but she ain't mine. But she ain't mine. Take a little trip to the station. I'm bound to go. I'm bound to go. When I'll see my love again I do not know. I do not know. Too long - too long I've been gone. Four white walls and a worried mind - that's all I have. That's all. That's all. And when I need someone to talk to, I just say, hello, wall. Too long - too long I've been gone.

GROSS: Nice. Thank you. And that's Dom Flemons singing a song that he also does on his new album. The album is called "Prospect Hill." And today he's performing for us in our studio. So the song you just sang, which you wrote, has a very kind of folk sense to it. You were in college in Arizona. You grew up in Arizona.


GROSS: You were in college in Arizona when you started getting into folk music. But you used to play in rock and roll bands, right?

FLEMONS: No, I never really played in rock and roll bands. I always played solo.

GROSS: Oh, so you were, like, doing a lot of busking?

FLEMONS: I was doing a lot of busking. I'd play solo. I played for a while in a group called the Wild Whiskey Boys. And so I played harmonica in that group. But it was always guitar, banjo and harmonica. And that was all I played until I came to North Carolina. And then I started playing the bones and the quills - oh, and the bass drum, snare drum - all the drums. I played that in school, so that was like my actual formal training. So...

GROSS: Were you in marching band in school?

FLEMONS: Yeah, I was in marching band with bass drum. And then I was - I played, like, auxiliary percussion. I played all the different - from timpani all the way down to suspended cymbal, triangles and all of that stuff - so a good sense of not just the main rhythm, but what the auxiliary rhythm that you put on top of the main rhythm was.

And that was something that I didn't think about till later - like ideas of syncopation, you know, sort of subdividing rhythms and things like that. Those were all things that I just naturally had inherent within my own musical education.

GROSS: Did you learn to love marches, being in marching band?

FLEMONS: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like, another old song I got to thinking about - a song like "Workin' At The Car Wash Blues" by Jim Croce. Like, this is the story of stuff I used to do. So, like, when Jim Croce does it, he does...


FLEMONS: (Singing) Well, I just got out of the county prison, doing 90 days for non-support. Trying to get me an executive position, but no matter how smooth I talk, they wouldn't listen to the fact that I was a genius.

So that's that style. But if I wanted to change into, like, a gospel - a quartet number, I'd do, you know...


FLEMONS: (Singing) Well, I just got out of the county prison, 90 days for non-support. Trying to get me an executive position, but no matter how smooth I talk they wouldn't listen to the fact that I was a genius. Man say, we got all that we can use. Got them steadily depressing, low-down, mind messing, workin' at the car wash blues.

So I used to do that. I used to take all the styles that weren't the styles of the original artist, and I used to just do that. You know, and I would just - you know, and just for my own amusement, I would do this sort of stuff all the time.

So when I started getting into performing and reinterpreting traditional material, I tried to find material that wasn't the well-known material 'cause everybody's done a Robert Johnson number. And it's really hard to reinterpret that stuff because it's just so well-worn. I just tried to find people like, you know, that interested me - like Henry Thomas, or Papa Charlie Jackson, Lead Belly, Charley Patton - where there was a little bit of room to interpret their music so that I could learn it my own way. And then I could try to figure out how to put my own stamp on it. You know, that's the thing that every songster does.

GROSS: Dom Flemons will be back in the second half of the show and perform more songs for us. Here's a track from his new album "Prospect Hill." I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.


FLEMONS: (Singing) One, two - oh, little Susie, how I love you. Nothing in the world can make me snug you. Polly, put the kettle on, kettle on, kettle on. Polly, put the kettle on. Boil the tea 'cause bread and butter's good enough - good enough for anybody. Bread and butter's good enough - good enough for me. Tell me baby what you're trying to do. Trying to love me and some other man, too. Polly put the kettle on, kettle on.

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Dom Flemons. He was a founding member of the Carolina Chocolate Drops, a band extending the tradition of African-American string bands. He recently left the group and has just released his first solo album, called "Prospect Hill." It reflects his interest in old-timey music, blues and early jazz. He plays guitar, banjo, harmonica, bones, jug and fife and has brought some of his instruments to the studio. I was wondering if I could ask you to perform an excerpt of one of the songs that first got you interested either in folk music or in music of the '20s and '30s.

FLEMONS: Well, one of the things that really got me interested in a lot of the old music was a documentary called the "History Of Rock And Roll." And they had an episode about the folk revival.

GROSS: Was this the PBS series?

FLEMONS: Yes, it was. When I was watching that documentary, one of the first country-blues musicians I got interested - they had a little clip of him - and it was Lightnin' Hopkins doing the song "Mojo Hand." I just love the sound of his


FLEMONS: (Singing) I'm going to Louisiana. I'm going to get me a mojo hand. I'm going to Louisiana. I'm going to give me a mojo hand. I'm going to fix my woman so she can't have no other man. That's what I'm going to do.


GROSS: So, you know, I can hear that you can - you're almost trying to, like, channel the performers that you do and get their voice, as well as their guitar style, down. I guess if you have a really good ear, it's easier to do that - to really also copy somebody's voice. Like, if you have really good pitch, you can get somebody's voice better. You were telling me earlier, before we started the broadcast, that when you were performing solo early in your career, you would do imitations...

FLEMONS: Oh, yeah, yeah. (Laughing).

GROSS: ...Of performers.

FLEMONS: Yeah, well, the idea that I had in my 16-year-old mind is that - see, I would hear the songs, and no one else knew what these songs were, so I tried my best to replicate them so that people would get a sense of the song as it was performed by the original performer. At that time, I didn't feel like I had any interesting stories. After being in the business now for 15 years just about now, I have some stories of my own. But at first, I didn't really have stories.

So I would tell other people's stories and then, you know, I'd do like - let's see. (Laughing) I'll do a funny one of - I used to do "Nashville Skyline" Bob Dylan. I used to do - you know most people know him as - with this voice.


FLEMONS: (Singing) Go away from my window. Leave at your own chosen speed.

You know, but in "Nashville Skyline," he started singing like...


FLEMONS: (Singing) Peggy Day stole my poor heart away. By golly, what more can I say? Love to spend the night with Peggy Day.

I used to do that.


FLEMONS: When I was 18, I got to see Dave Van Ronk, and I heard him do this song...


FLEMONS: And especially with Llewyn Davis coming out, now people know a little bit more about David Van Ronk, which is a really beautiful to me.


FLEMONS: (Singing) Well, listen here, pretty papa. Please get out of my sight. I'm calling it quits now, right from this very night. You've had your day. Don't stand around. You're being a good old wagon, daddy, but you done broke down.


GROSS: But you were telling me though that you also did Van Morrison.

FLEMONS: Let's see.


FLEMONS: (Singing) Half a mile from the county fair, and the rain came pouring down. Me and Billy standing there with a silver half a crown. Hands are full of fishing rod and the tackle on our back. We just stood there getting wet, with our backs against the fence.

And if I wanted to sing it like Van Morrison now - (singing) oh, in the water. Oh, the water. (Unintelligble).


FLEMONS: You know, and I'd do things like that or, you know...

GROSS: Did you ever have a hard time figuring out - but who is Dom Flemons?

FLEMONS: I thought about it every once in a while. And I wrote songs at first. The first five or six years I performed, on top of doing other people's songs, I did my own songs, too. But I got into a spot where I just really felt like doing songs that I liked playing. I just didn't feel like writing songs anymore. I just felt like, oh, gosh, I'm never - I'm not as good of a songwriter as, like, the great songwriters that I had listened to. So I just focused on styles. And then for this one, I decided to creep a little bit of songwriting back into it.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Dom Flemons. He used to be a member of the Carolina Chocolate Drops, a string band that was reviving the African-American string band tradition. But he's recently gone solo, and he has a new solo album, which is called "Prospect Hill." Let's take a short break and we'll hear Dom Flemons perform some more. This is FRESH AIR.


GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Dom Flemons, and he is a musician and singer and songwriter. He plays guitar, banjo, bones and a bunch of instruments. And he's very interested in music of the '20s and '30s. He's a former member of the Carolina Chocolate Drops, which was a string band reviving music from the African American string band tradition. Now he's solo, and he has a new solo album, which is called "Prospect Hill."

One of the instruments you brought with you today is the largest banjo I've ever seen. I think there probably aren't many like this in the world. Does it have a name?

FLEMONS: Well, you know, I just - I just realized I'm going to start calling it Big-head Joe.

GROSS: (Laughing).

FLEMONS: 'Cause someone was - someone was sitting in the audience at a show, and they just kept saying, that's such a big head on that banjo. And I've been trying to think of a name, so Big Head Joe, I think, is a going to be (laughing)...

GROSS: That's very good. Would you describe its size and how it compares to a regular banjos?

FLEMONS: Well, it's an 18-inch head on here. Usually most banjos you see are maybe 11-inch heads in diameter. It has a very fancy pick guard, a very extravagant inlay because this actually made in Philadelphia. There was a small guitar making studio that made this banjo. It's called the Clef Club brand banjo.

I picked it up at the Retrofret guitar shop in Brooklyn. And they couldn't find anything to link the Clef Club brand with the Clef Club Orchestra, which was James Reese Europe's orchestra. But, you know, I'm taking a little bit of historical liberty by saying if there's the Cleft Club brand of banjo, and this is a big banjo like you'd have in a banjo orchestra - I feel like it's a least a knockoff banjo that a professional musician had made for him because it as a really fancy pick guard. It has a little holder your flat pick. It came with a capo. It had lights that you could clip onto the truss rod so that you can heat the head of the banjo, in case it happens to be a hot day, and the skin gets moist and soggy. It has, you know, it has these little custom lights so you can just plug them in there.

GROSS: What, to dry it out?

FLEMONS: Yeah, just to dry it out so that it can, you know - you see right now?


FLEMONS: There's not too much humidity, but if there was - if there was more of it, the skin would start to sink down, and the notes would start to sound kind of mushy. And so I found out that that's - that was another thing that they had. They had little lights for professional banjo players. They either have a little foot switch, or they plugged it in or whatever it was 'cause it doesn't take a lot. You just have to put a little heat on it, and then the banjo's good to go.

GROSS: So when was this first made?

FLEMONS: This was made - they have it written down as circa 1924. And so this is an old, vintage instrument here that's just one of its - just one-of-a-kind, and I'm really glad to be the owner of it.

GROSS: And it's much deeper sounding than a regular banjo.

FLEMONS: Oh, yeah. Well, you know, for example, here, a song that I've played for quite a few years is "Your Baby Ain't Sweet Like Mine," which is a Papa Charlie Jackson number. But on this banjo, it sounds - this is a little bit more how Papa Charlie played it - and I'll sing it more like Papa Charlie too.


FLEMONS: (Singing) I'm going to tell you about my baby. Well, I can't tell you everything about my baby. It wouldn't be possible to tell you everything. It wouldn't be possible to tell you everything. Everybody talking about their sweetie nowadays. I've got the one with the sweetest ways. Your baby may roll her jelly fine. Nobody's baby can roll it like mine. Your baby ain't sweet like mine. She bake her jelly roll all the time. And when I'm feeling lonesome and blue, my baby know just what to do. Yes, sir, she even calls me honey. She even let me spend her money. Never has a baby put me outdoors. She even buys me all my clothes. I don't want to brag. I want to put you in line. Your baby ain't sweet like mine. Oh, no. Your baby ain't sweet like mine.

GROSS: That's great. (Laughing).

FLEMONS: And so just for comparison's sake, I would play it on the regular guitar. I'll play the same thing. Let's see here. Even between guitar-banjo...


FLEMONS: (Singing) Everybody talking about the sweetie nowadays. I got the one with the sweetest ways.

See, it even has a completely different tone...

GROSS: Yeah.

FLEMONS: ...if I play it on this...

GROSS: Yeah.

FLEMONS: ....Regular guitar. And that's always been the appeal of those instruments is that you can - you're - it's tuned like a guitar, and it plays like a guitar...

GROSS: Oh, I see.

FLEMONS: ...But it has a banjo quality to it.

GROSS: Oh, I didn't realize that.


GROSS: The big banjos tune like a guitar?

FLEMONS: Yeah, this one's tuned exactly like a guitar. And see, so they sell - they sell smaller ones usually, like Deering, Gold Tone - all of them have their own versions of their - of a six-string banjo. Rod Stewart did it on - when he was doing the "Standards" album, he really popularized the six-string. Johnny St. Cyr, who played with Louis Armstrong - he played a six-string. Danny Barker, the New Orleans - New Orleans player - it was really a New Orleans-y instrument. The main proponents of it - that and Papa Charlie Jackson, who was another New Orleans guy - they played six-string banjo.

But it kind of - once they electrified guitars, it really put the nail in the coffin on the six-string banjo 'cause, sound wise, it's not particularly a great instrument. Since this one's so big, it has a really great resonant tone, but smaller ones generally have bad intonation. And they're all, like, very mid-range-y sort of instruments. So in terms of recorded music, it tends to be a very hard instrument to record. So once they realized they could just - you have parlor guitars and electric guitars - they just dropped the six-string banjo altogether.

GROSS: So an advantage of banjo before electrification was that it would cut through a little better.

FLEMONS: And it's like six-strings and, like, the resonators. Those are like the two types of big, big amplified - pre-amplified - guitars that people would play.

GROSS: So most banjos have five strings.

FLEMONS: Yeah, most banjos have five. I don't play five-string all the time. I don't carry one with me. But it's - four- and six-strings are my two.(Laughing).

GROSS: And why four-string?

FLEMONS: Four was just because I started out on four-strings, and I'm more comfortable playing it with four.

GROSS: So there's a song that you do on your new album - it's called "But They Got It Fixed Right On" - that I'd like you to do for us. And you do that on that really large banjo.

FLEMONS: Oh, yes. Yeah, see, now, 'cause a song like "But They Got It Fixed Right On" is so ridiculous that I have to have this ridiculous banjo to go with it. (Laughing).

GROSS: Tell us about the song before you play it.

FLEMONS: Now, the song is a type of song called a hokum song, which is a song - the hokum songs are all - are humor songs that are - they have double entendres, so they mean two different things at one time when you say a certain phrase.

And this was actually recorded and written by Thomas A. Dorsey and Tampa Red. And this was the type of music that Thomas A. Dorsey was doing before - he had actually a series of tragedies which led him to become very, very much a God-fearing man. And he then wrote "Precious Lord, Take My Hand" and "Peace In The Valley." And he actually made a larger career being a gospel song writer.

But beforehand, he and Tampa Red came up with a song "Honey, It's Tight Like That" and a lot of these hokum numbers. He pretty much invented the style. And so I'll play it for you now - "But They Got It Fixed Right On."


FLEMONS: (Singing) Gal with a Ford and a boy named Jim. He liked her, and she liked him. Both broke down in a country bar, but they didn't get home until after dark. But they got it fixed. Ain't no doubt. Nobody know what the song's about. Too bad that that the news got out, but they got it fixed right on.

A man with a peg-leg and a gal named Sue broke his peg-leg half in two. Only way that they could fix the leg was to get this gal to take a hold of the peg. But they got it fixed. Ain't no doubt. Nobody know what the song's about. Too bad that that the news got out, but they got it fixed right on.

A gal walked into the butcher shop, grabbed the butcher's big ham hock. Butcher knocked her right off her feet. She missed his bone, but she got his meat. But they got it fixed. Ain't no doubt. Nobody know what the song's about. Too bad that that the news got out, but they got it fixed right on.

Now, the monkey and the polecat made a deal, to discuss the subject of sex appeal. Skunk won the argument right or wrong 'cause his sex appeal was much too strong. But they got it fixed. Ain't no doubt. Nobody know what the song's about. Too bad that that the news got out, but they got it fixed right on.

GROSS: (Laughing) That's great. That's Dom Flemons performing in our studio. And that's a song he also does on his new album, which is called "Prospect Hill." So your new solo album, "Prospect Hill," was recorded, I think, the day of or the day after Pete Seeger died.


GROSS: And being immersed in folk music as you are, what did he mean to you? And what did that coincidence of dates - how did that affect the mood when you were recording?

FLEMONS: Oh, well, I mean Pete's been an essential part of my life, as a lover of folk music, ever since I heard a demo version of him playing "If I Had A Hammer." And that was really the - one of the first times I really thought about the banjo as an instrument that I liked the sound of. You know, it'd be years before I actually played one. But I had heard it, and I liked the sound of that.

So Pete was - he was getting close to being on the way out. It wasn't looking good. I have a couple of friends - mutual friends - and I've met Pete several occasions. I never got to go out to his house, but I have enough mutual friends that I could hear it was - he wasn't long for this world. And Guy Davis had signed on for the album. I'd known Guy for a lot of years.

GROSS: Playing guitar on the album?

FLEMONS: Yeah, playing guitar. He played harmonica on the record, as well, and snare drum. And he had been visiting Pete the morning - I mean, I guess the afternoon before Pete died. So he went on a red-eye flight the next morning to come down to the session. Pete passed away within that time. And he was also - his mom, Ruby Dee, just passed away too, and so he also just had to...

GROSS: Guy Davis's mom was Ruby Dee?

FLEMONS: Yes, Ruby and Ossie were - are his parents.

GROSS: Oh, Ossie Davis.

FLEMONS: Yeah, and so he was taking care of her, too. So he had to come down - you know, passed Mom off to his sisters and then had to leave Pete. Pete passed away. So it's like, you know, his heart was heavy with all that stuff. But he also came in wanting to work, and so he said, let's go ahead and do this. And, I mean, that comes through - that spirit comes through on the album. We just - we got in there, and...

GROSS: It's just so interesting that he was in this other place - this place of mourning and preparing to mourn. But the music on most of the album is really so lighthearted.

FLEMONS: Yeah, it's just - that's the thing about the blues, and string band music's the same way. It grabs to a root, and it brings you out of whatever spot it is. You know, like - yeah, you just - you feel that feeling, and then you can project out that energy just through the songs. And it was joyful.

GROSS: Well, Dom Flemons, it's really been great to talk with you and to hear you perform. Thank you so much for being with us and for playing for us.

FLEMONS: Well, thank you for having me, Terry. And I just have to say that it's just such a great pleasure to be here again on the show with you.

GROSS: Here's more music from Dom Flemon's new album "Prospect Hill." Our interview was recorded in July. Coming rock historian Ed Ward tells the story of the band Little Feet. A box set collects their recordings from 1971 to 1990. This is FRESH AIR.

The archetypal '70s band had a charismatic frontman and wonderful songs, but they also had drug problems and kept breaking up. Their Warner Bros. recordings are in a new box set called Rad Gumbo.


This is FRESH AIR. Our rock historian Ed Ward describes Little Feat as the archetypal '70s band. They had a charismatic front man who was a guitar virtuoso. They wrote wonderful songs and they had an influence far in excess of their record sales. They also had awful luck - drug problems and kept breaking up. With the release of a box of all of their Warner Bros. recordings called "Rad Gumbo," Ed tells their story.


LITTLE FEAT: (Singing) Lord it's me and my soul.

ED WARD, BYLINE: If there's anything I did during my brief tenure at Rolling Stone that I'm proud of, it's rescuing Little Feat. During the summer of 1970, there were very few albums out there that I or any of my writers wanted to cover. In one week, I took home a stack of 45s and wrote about them instead. One of them in particular grabbed me right off.


LITTLE FEAT: (Singing) Ripped off and run out of town, had my guitar burned when I was clowning. Haven't slept in a bed for a week. And my shoes feel like they're part of my feet - let me come down - where I won't be a bother to no one - let me unwind - please give me a hole to recline in. Knocked on my friend's door in Moody, Texas, and asked if he had a place for me. His hair was cut off and he was wearing a suit. He said not in my house, no, not in my house. He looked like a part of a conspiracy.

WARD: The record was called "Strawberry Flats" - a slab of out-and-out paranoia set to a nervous backing and the band was called Little Feat. All I could figure out by reading the label was that ex-"Mother Of Invention" Roy Estrada was a member. And I wrote that I hoped an album was in the works. Right off, I got a call from the press guy at Warners - do you really think they're that good, he asked? Adding that he hadn't listened to it. I told him he should. And he said they'd been signed to make the single as a favor to someone and then hung up to check if the option had been picked up. It soon was. And earlier the next year, an album appeared. I loved it - needless to say, it stiffed. But back in those days, record companies stuck by artists they liked. And the "Feat" got a second album in 1972 - "Sailin' Shoes." By now, we knew a little more about them - guitarist Lowell George had had a band - "The Fraternity Of Man" with keyboardist Billy Payne and drummer Richie Hayward who's in an earlier band - "The Factory." Despite a bunch of good songs and a cover by painter Neon Park, the album stiffed again and Estrada quit. It took two guys to replace him, but the lineup had finally stabilized.


WARD: Richie Hayward, drums. Sam Clayton, percussion.


WARD: Paul Barrere, guitar, Kenny Gradney, bass.


WARD: Bill Payne, keyboards, Lowell George, guitar. They made another album filled with great songs, "Dixie Chicken..."


LITTLE FEAT: (Singing) I've seen the bright lights of Memphis and the Commodore Hotel. And underneath a street lamp, I met a Southern Belle. Well, she took me to the river where she cast her spell. And in that southern moonlight, she sang the song so well. If you'll be my dixie chicken, I'll be your Tennessee lamb. And we can walk together down in Dixieland, down in Dixieland.

WARD: And then they broke up again. Late in 1974, Warner's paid them to reform and make another album. "Feats Don't Fail Me Now" was their breakthrough. It got them a gold record and a European tour. And after they returned, they got to work on the next one - "The Last Record Album." It was another hit.


LITTLE FEAT: (Singing) I've been down, but not like this before. Can't be around this kind of show no more. All, all that you dream comes through shining silver lining. Clouds, clouds change of scene. Rain starts washing, all those cautions right into your life. Just stop and realize just what is true. What else can you do? Just follow the rules and keep your eyes on the road that's ahead of you.

WARD: Lowell George's love of injectable drugs was an open secret by now, although he managed to make it through the recording sessions with a case of hepatitis. The next album, "Time Loves A Hero" had only one song for him though. The rest of the band was learning to work around him. And Barrere and Payne were writing great songs.


LITTLE FEAT: (Singing) Now some people are saying that I'm crazy because my real name is just Jesse James. Well, I left them half-crocked, hard-knock to Black Rock County just to ride on that New Delhi train. I'm riding on that New Delhi Freight Train. I'm riding on that New Delhi line. I'm riding on that New Delhi Freight Train and I left my love behind, left my love behind.

WARD: In August 1977, the band took a pile of live recordings from the Rainbow Theatre in London and the Lisner Auditorium in Washington, D.C., and compiled probably the best live album of the decade - "Waiting For Columbus." Some of Lowell George's vocals and guitar parts had to be overdubbed, but the rest of the band and the crowd response sure wasn't. It too went gold and then platinum. It didn't surprise anyone then that early in 1979, Bill Payne announced that Little Feat was over. Lowell recorded a solo album - "Thanks, I'll Eat It Here"- and went on tour with it. On June 29th after a sold-out show at the Lisner in Washington, Lowell was found dead in his hotel room at the age of 34 of a heart attack brought on by drugs. The band reformed in 1987 and has existed in various configurations since then. Neon Park, whose real name was Marty Muller, died in 1993 and Richie Hayward died of liver cancer in 2010. But Little Feat continues to inspire young musicians and their records continue to sell.

GROSS: Rock historian Ed Ward lives in Austin. The Little Feat box set is called "Rad Gumbo: The complete Warner Bros. Years 1971-1990.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.

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