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Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck

Brubeck, who died in 2012, was a celebrated pianist. His 1959 album Time Out was the first jazz album to sell a million copies. Sunday marks the centennial of his birth. Originally broadcast in 1999.


Other segments from the episode on December 4, 2020

Fresh Air with Terry Gross, December 4, 2020: Interview with Dave Brubeck; Review of



This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Today, we celebrate the life and music of Dave Brubeck, the influential jazz pianist and composer. This Sunday marks the centennial of his birth. His career lasted nearly 70 years. He was still performing in his 90s. He died in 2012 on the eve of his 92nd birthday. Brubeck's album "Time Out," released in 1961, was the first jazz album to sell a million copies. And "Take Five," the album's hit single, was, in the words of our jazz critic, Kevin Whitehead, a musical symbol of Kennedy-era optimism.

Terry interviewed Dave Brubeck in 1999. They started with Brubeck's composition "Three To Get Ready" from the "Time Out" album, which illustrates how the Dave Brubeck Quartet approached counterpoint and eccentric rhythms. Paul Desmond is featured on alto saxophone, Eugene Wright, bass, and Joe Morello, drums.


TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: Dave Brubeck, welcome to FRESH AIR.

DAVE BRUBECK: Thank you.

GROSS: Now, you grew up in Concord, Calif. Your mother was a classical piano teacher. Did she give you lessons?

BRUBECK: Yeah. I had two older brothers, Henry and Howard, that also took lessons from my mother. And half the community - the people interested in piano - studied with her.

GROSS: Was it hard to study with your mother?

BRUBECK: Yeah. It wasn't so bad for my brothers, but I kind of rebelled.

GROSS: How? And why?

BRUBECK: How, and why? I wanted to be like my father, who was a cattleman and a rodeo roper. And that - he was my hero, and I wanted to be more like him. So my mother allowed me to stop taking lessons when I was 11, and we moved to a 45,000-acre cattle ranch, where I spent my last year in grammar school and my high school years. And all summer, I worked with my father. Then I went off to college to study veterinary medicine.

GROSS: Oh, in the hope that you'd be a help on the ranch.

BRUBECK: Yeah, so I could - that - I had to go to college, according to my mother, like my brothers. I didn't ever want to leave my dad or my dad's ranch. My dad was the manager at the 45,000-acre ranch, but he owned his own 1,200-acre ranch. And I owned four cattle that he gave to me when I graduated from grammar school, from the eighth grade. And those cows multiplied, and he kept track of them for years for me. And that was my herd.

GROSS: You know, I'm used to seeing you behind the piano. It's hard for me to imagine you as a cowboy.

BRUBECK: Well, I could send you pictures.


BRUBECK: And there even are some - what we call movies in those days, some of the very first kind of home movies where I'm with my dad lassoing and branding and - big roundup. So it's - it is documented.

GROSS: Did you sing cowboy songs?

BRUBECK: All of them, yeah, when they were real cowboy songs like "Strawberry Roan" and "Little Joe, The Wrangler" - tunes that people don't sing anymore. I love those songs. The words can still make me cry. And I used to make my kids cry by singing, Joe, you take my saddle; Bill, you take my bed; Jim, you take my pistol after I am dead, and think of me, please, kindly when you look upon them all, for I'll not see my mother when the work's all done next fall.

Now, that's a cowboy tune.

GROSS: Did you like singing?

BRUBECK: Oh, yeah. I used to sing that, play my ukulele (laughter).

GROSS: Ukulele - no, wow.


BRUBECK: Some of my friends played guitar, cowboy songs. Yeah.

GROSS: Let me get back to what we were talking about, which is life on the cattle ranch. And there were two cattle ranches in your life, the one your father owned and the larger one that he managed. Did you have really strong arms and hands from the work, and do you think that that helped you as a piano player?

BRUBECK: It didn't hurt. My mother would not allow my dad to have me rope anything larger than a yearling because she didn't want my fingers to become hurt. And my uncle, who was also a rodeo roper, got his finger caught between the saddle horn and the rope, and it took his finger right off. And he used to kid the other cowboys and said, I would have been a great pianist like my nephew Dave had I not lost this finger.

GROSS: Was your mother convinced that you were going to become a pianist? Or she was just worried about your fingers on general principles.

BRUBECK: Well, she thought that I had a certain amount of talent that I was not developing. And so after my first year as a veterinary pre-med, I switched to the music department, which was across the lawn.

GROSS: Mmm hmm.

BRUBECK: And that was at the advice of my zoology teacher, Dr. Arnold.

GROSS: (Laughter).

BRUBECK: He said, Brubeck, your mind is not here with these frogs in the formaldehyde; your mind's across the lawn at the conservatory. Will you please go over there next year?

GROSS: How did he know?

BRUBECK: He - I guess he'd just seen me become kind of blank and be listening to the - everybody practicing and the music and drifting away from what he was trying to teach me.

GROSS: Now, I think in spite of the fact that you studied piano with your mother as a boy, you weren't very good at reading music. How well could you read when you started majoring in music in college?

BRUBECK: I couldn't read, and that caused a lot of trouble in the conservatory, so I hid it until I was a senior by not taking piano. I'd take - the other instruments were cello and clarinet, and so the - I was just playing scales and getting by and doing the subjects I had to pass in. But in my senior year, they said, you have to take piano.

And the piano teacher, in five minutes, ran downstairs to the dean and said, Brubeck can't read at all. So the dean said, you know, you're a disgrace to the conservatory. And we can't graduate you. And when some of the younger teachers heard this, they went to the dean and they said, you're making a big mistake because he writes the best counterpoint that I've ever had, said Dr. Brown (ph). And Dr. Bodley (ph) went in and said, you're wrong. You know, this guy is talented. So they convinced the dean to let me graduate if I - and the dean said, you can graduate if you promise never to teach and embarrass the conservatory.

GROSS: (Laughter).

BRUBECK: So that's the way I graduated. And that's the way I've gotten through life is having to substitute (laughter) other things for not being able to read well. But I can write, which is something very few people understand.

GROSS: Well, you know, I thought we might pause here and listen to another recently re-released recording. And this features you with the great singer Jimmy Rushing. Now, you haven't done a lot of work with singers over the years, at least not that I'm aware of. Tell me how you managed to do this session with Jimmy Rushing, who had sung with Basie. And he's considered a great blues singer. But he's also a great singer of swing tunes and standards.

BRUBECK: I was on tour with Jimmy in England. And we had to take the train together to the next city. So we were riding in the train for about three hours. And he said, Dave, I want to do an album with you. And I said, I don't think I'm the right group for you, Jimmy. And he said, I know you're the right group. I've been listening to you for years. And I'm going to set this up at Columbia Records as soon as we get back.

GROSS: Well, why don't we hear you and Jimmy Rushing doing "There'll Be Some Changes Made." And...


GROSS: (Laughter) You like that?


GROSS: Yeah, so do I. And this is from the recently re-issued 1960 recording "Brubeck & Rushing," the Dave Brubeck Quartet featuring Jimmy Rushing.


THE DAVE BRUBECK QUARTET FEATURING JIMMY RUSHING: (Singing) There's a change in the weather, change in the sea. From now on there'll be a change in me. Walk will be different, my talk and my name. Nothing about me is going be the same. Change my long, strong for a little, short fat. Change my number where I'm stopping at. Nobody wants you when you're old and gray. There'll be some changes made today. There'll be some changes made. Change in the weather. Change in the sea. From now on there'll be a change in me. Walk will be different, my talk and my name. Nothing about me is going to be the same. Change my long, strong for a little, short fat. Change my number where I'm stopping at. Nobody wants you when you're old and gray. There'll be some changes made today. There'll be some changes, oh, some changes made. Oh, baby, there'll be some changes made.

DAVIES: That's the Dave Brubeck Quartet with Jimmy Rushing recorded in 1960. We'll hear more of the interview Terry Gross recorded with Brubeck after a break. This is FRESH AIR.


DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's interview with Dave Brubeck recorded in 1999. Sunday marks the centennial of Brubeck's birth.


GROSS: Moving along with the story of your life (laughter) - you were in the army, I think, toward the end of World War II. Did you see combat?

BRUBECK: I saw it.

GROSS: (Laughter) OK. Didn't participate, huh?

BRUBECK: I avoided participation. But, you know, I was in the Battle of the Bulge. And I was on the wrong side of the lines. I was in German territory and had to come...

GROSS: How did you end up in German territory?

BRUBECK: We didn't know where we were. And everything was going wrong. And so the truck driver just took the wrong turn. And I was up there to play a show for the frontline troops with my band, which were all infantry guys that had been wounded. When I say all, most of the guys in my band had been wounded. And when they'd come back behind the lines, if they were musicians, the doctors would send them to me or the - who was ever interviewing them.

So I had a good band, and a band that was very accepted at the front line because if you wore your Purple Heart - the front line guys are hard to reach. The USO people usually didn't go up that close. And also, they would have trouble reaching guys that, in the morning, were going to face a terrible kind of life. But my guys could reach them because they'd been there since D-Day. Some of them had been three months at the front. And so it made it a lot easier for the soldiers to accept my band.

GROSS: After the war was over, you went back to college on the GI Bill. And I think it was then that you studied with the French composer Darius Milhaud. Had you known Milhaud's work very well?

BRUBECK: Well, my brother was his assistant - Howard.


BRUBECK: And just before I went into the Army, I went to see Milhaud and ask him if, when I got out, I could come back and study with him. And he said I could. So that's exactly what I did on the GI Bill. I went directly after I got out of the Army back to Mills College and studied with him.

GROSS: And were you expecting then to write classical music?

BRUBECK: Yeah. And he would tell me, don't give up jazz. He said, you can do that so well. Why do you want to give it up and become a classical composer? And so we'd discuss that a lot. And then he said, look; if you're going to compose, you have to use the jazz idiom or you won't represent this country. And he said, my favorite composers are Duke Ellington and George Gershwin. And this really surprised me because you wouldn't have heard that, probably, any other conservatory in the country.

But, you see, Milhaud was the first guy, first European composer, to use the jazz idiom in classical music - a piece called "The Creation Of The World," a ballet. So he would say, don't ever give up jazz. You're free. You can go any place in the world where there's a piano. And you can play. And you can make a living. And you don't have to teach or do some of the things that other composers have to do in order to survive. And he said, and the worst thing you want to get out of is our faculty meetings. And I think that's a good reason not to become a teacher in a university or college (laughter).

GROSS: So it sounds like he gave you some good advice.

BRUBECK: Oh, yeah. He said travel the world. Keep your ears open. Bring back everything you hear. Put it in the jazz in you. And that's what I did. I still follow his advice.

GROSS: Well, I want to play a 1956 recording. And this is your recording of "The Duke," which you've described as your tribute to both Duke Ellington and Darius Milhaud.


GROSS: And Ellington also, you know, was wonderful at connecting classical form and jazz. You want to say anything else about this composition before we hear it?

BRUBECK: Well, it is one of my favorite compositions. And the second theme is where I use Milhaud kind of influences with polytonality, which wasn't being done too much in early jazz. It was being done some. But Milhaud was a master of that. And then the first part is just kind of my impression of Duke's wonderful band.

GROSS: Let's hear it. This is "The Duke," composed and performed by my guest, Dave Brubeck.


DAVIES: That's Dave Brubeck playing his composition "The Duke" from his album "Brubeck Plays Brubeck." Sunday marks the centennial of Brubeck's birth. We'll hear more of Terry's interview with Dave Brubeck in the second half of the show. We'll also hear what our book critic Maureen Corrigan has selected as the best books of the year. And our TV critic David Bianculli will review the new miniseries "Your Honor," starring Bryan Cranston. I'm Dave Davies. And this is FRESH AIR.


DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're remembering jazz pianist and composer Dave Brubeck. He was born 100 years ago this Sunday. Brubeck died in 2012 on the eve of his 92nd birthday. Terry spoke to Brubeck in 1999. Here's a track from his album "Brubeck Time," composed by Brubeck and alto saxophonist Paul Desmond. It's called "Audrey."


GROSS: The recording we just heard was released 45 years ago, which was the same year that you were on the cover of Time magazine. What was the impact of this recording, "Brubeck Time," on your career?

BRUBECK: Well, it's a wonderful time in my life because we had been struggling for years to get to be more known. And as you mentioned, the cover of Time magazine was really something that helped us a lot. But when you mentioned "Audrey," it was Audrey Hepburn that we had in mind. And we never realized that she ever had heard this tune. There was no communication like that. And because she was so important at the United Nations for the work she did with children, when they did a memorial service for her there, her husband asked that they play what you just played. And they said that she usually played it every night or put it on her headphones as she walked through her garden in Switzerland. So it was wonderful to hear that. I wish Paul Desmond had been around to know that she listened to it and liked it.

GROSS: Now, how is the recording "Brubeck Time" different from your previous recordings?

BRUBECK: Well, at that time I was starting to do different time signatures, but the record companies were kind of leery of getting out of the usual dance tempos that were mostly 4/4 and an occasional waltz. So eventually, after "Brubeck Time," we did "Time Out," which had "Take Five" and "Blue Rondo" and "Three To Get Ready." And again, the record companies were a little afraid of it. But against their wishes, I forced them to put "Time Out" out. And it became the biggest seller they ever had in jazz.

GROSS: Now, your first record that I think really made an impression on the record buying public - I mean, it got bought a lot - was "Jazz Goes To College." And it was sessions recorded at three different colleges.


GROSS: And, you know, there's a picture of you on it. You're wearing your glasses. And those glasses were really such a part of your image. And I think in part because that record was "Jazz Goes To College" and in part because of those kind of thick plastic glasses, you maybe had the image of being what was known in those days as an egghead.

BRUBECK: I wish I had. I'm not that smart. But people forget that at the same time, we had a huge following at places like the Apollo Theater, the Howard Theater in Washington and the universities that they used to call Black universities, Afro-American universities. We played the so-called Black clubs all through the South where there - where no white people came in. And in some of the Black clubs, we were the only white group that came in. This is what I wish people would remember. And we integrated many, many universities in this country. And those are important things to remember. It wasn't just Ivy League places. We were really doing some work that people seemed to forget how hard it was to do, where you had to have a police escort to the concert and the president of the college refusing to let you go on and the students demanding you go on. I could tell you a lot of stories about that.

GROSS: The problem was that you were white or that one of the musicians in the band was Black?

BRUBECK: Eugene Wright was Black, yeah.

GROSS: So that was the problem.

BRUBECK: We couldn't do some television shows because in those days, you couldn't have Black and white together. One show I had to turn down Duke Ellington took because he - at the moment, he had an all-Black band. Sometimes Duke would have a white drummer like Louie Bellson, and that would maybe give him problems. They just didn't want mixed groups on television.

GROSS: Let me play what might be the most famous of the Brubeck Quartet recordings, and that's "Take Five," which you recorded in 1959. Would you talk about this composition? It's a Desmond composition, but I think you worked with him on it.

BRUBECK: Yeah. Paul has done a radio show in Canada before he died where he said, I'm so fortunate that Dave assigned me to do the section in 5/4 because that was the one track I wanted Paul to do as a solo for my percussionist, the great drummer Joe Morello, because Joe would often play in 5/4 time backstage, which is a time signature that was very rarely, if ever, used in jazz. So I would hear Paul start to improvise over Joe playing on a drum pad before he'd go onstage. And so I said, just write some of the melodies, the ideas that you're doing, and bring it to rehearsal in a few days.

So that's what happened. He came, and he had some ideas that I thought were great. The first thing he said - I can't write anything in 5/4. I've tried and tried. I said, let me see what you've got. So he showed me what he had, and I said, I can put this together, and it'll be great. And I put what he had together as theme one, theme two, and that's how that the thing was born. And I named it "Take Five," and he objected to that name. And I said, why, Paul? And he said, nobody knows what "Take Five" means. What does it mean? I said, everybody knows but you, Paul Desmond, what take five means. So I argued with him, and I kept that title, which I think is a great title. Then, of course, I later wrote the words to it. So I had a little bit to do with this tune.

GROSS: Well, before we hear it, I want to thank you very much for talking with us about your early career. It's really been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

BRUBECK: Thank you, Terry.

DAVIES: Jazz pianist and composer Dave Brubeck speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 1999. This Sunday marks the centennial of Brubeck's birth. Dave Brubeck died in 2012.


DAVIES: Coming up, best books of the year, fiction and nonfiction. We'll hear our book critic Maureen Corrigan's picks. This is FRESH AIR.




This is FRESH AIR. Bryan Cranston, the star of AMC's "Breaking Bad," returns to series television for the first time since that show left the air in a new Showtime miniseries called "Your Honor," which begins on Sunday. Cranston plays a New Orleans judge whose life is torn apart after his teenage son gets into some sudden and very serious trouble. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.

DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: Bryan Cranston had played the goofy dad on the Fox sitcom "Malcolm In The Middle" then redefined himself brilliantly as Walter White, the meek high school chemistry teacher in "Breaking Bad." What made Walter break bad was the sudden news that he had contracted terminal cancer, leading to a series of increasingly momentous decisions. In the new Showtime miniseries "Your Honor," Cranston returns to series TV, playing another character who gets some sudden life-changing news.

This time, he plays Michael Desiato, a compassionate judge in New Orleans and a single parent raising his teenage son after the death of his wife a year ago in an unexpected tragedy. On the day of that sad anniversary, the son Adam, played by Hunter Doohan, experiences an unexpected tragedy of his own. After leaving flowers at the convenience store where his mother was an innocent bystander shot by robbers, Adam has an asthma attack while driving away. He searches for his inhaler on the passenger seat. And as he takes his eye off the road, he slams into a motorcycle driven by another teenager. Adam, after returning home, tells his father what happened next.


BRYAN CRANSTON: (As Michael) Where did this happen?

HUNTER DOOHAN: (As Adam) The lower 9th.

CRANSTON: (As Michael) OK. OK. So it would be the new hospital, then. The ambulance would've taken him to - what? - New Orleans East, that right?

DOOHAN: (As Adam) I don't know.

CRANSTON: (As Michael) Well, the police must have said something.

DOOHAN: (As Adam) I drove away. (Crying) I drove away.

CRANSTON: (As Michael) Adam, you drove away before the EMTs arrived?

DOOHAN: (As Adam) I tried to help him. But I couldn't give - breathe...

CRANSTON: (As Michael) So you called 911?

DOOHAN: (As Adam) I tried to. But...

CRANSTON: (As Michael) What do you mean tried to, Adam?

DOOHAN: (As Adam) Dad, please...

CRANSTON: (As Michael) Is it yes or no?

DOOHAN: (As Adam) Help me, please, Dad. I couldn't breathe. I...

CRANSTON: (As Michael) OK. I got you, buddy. I got you.

BIANCULLI: This 10-part series begins like the HBO miniseries "The Night Of," following a young man as he descends deeper and deeper into a horrifying spiral of accidents and consequences. That engrossing 2016 miniseries was created by Peter Moffat, who adapted it from his own British series. Moffat is the adapter of "Your Honor," as well. But this time, he's not working from his own story. Showtime's "Your Honor" is his new version of a 2017 Israeli drama called "Kvodo," which has the same basic plot and is available to sample on YouTube. But for this adaptation for the United States, the location is changed to New Orleans, and other elements are given an American spin, from police brutality to local criminal activity.

One thing stays the same, though, and it's the thing that makes "Your Honor" so gripping from the start. The father, doing the right thing as both a judge and a citizen, escorts his son to the police station to turn him in with an explanation. But when he gets there, he sees the father of the victim and recognizes him as a powerful local mob boss. All of a sudden, the judge realizes that to turn his son in would be to sign his death warrant. So from that point on, what is the right thing to do? And how many people does he have to enlist or deceive to do it?

There's a certain flavor of "Breaking Bad" to this because we're essentially put in the position of sympathizing with and rooting for a person who's breaking and avoiding the law. But that's not a complaint because "Breaking Bad" may be the best TV drama series ever made. And Bryan Cranston, once again, crafts a marvelously nuanced and empathic performance.

And in "Your Honor," he's not alone. The executive producers, in addition to Moffat and Cranston, include Robert and Michelle King, the talented creators of "The Good Wife," so both the characters and the legal twists are fully drawn. Hunter Doohan, as the judge's son, has the same relatable acting skills as Cranston and needs to since he carries most of the show's opening hour. And other riveting characters and actors abound. Michael Stuhlbarg from TV's "Fargo" plays the mob boss, and Hope Davis plays his wife as a very fierce and involved sort of Carmela Soprano to his Tony. And while Margo Martindale from "Justified" and "The Americans" doesn't show up as the judge's mother-in-law until Episode 4, wow, is she worth the wait.

The writers on "Your Honor" include Moffat himself, and the directors include Clark Johnson, an actor and director way back on "Homicide: Life On The Street," and Edward Berger, who did a marvelous job directing another Showtime miniseries, "Patrick Melrose." Showtime provided only four of the 10 episodes of "Your Honor" in advance, but each one both impressed and surprised me and made me hungry to see the next.

Cranston's Michael Desiato is smart enough to think on his feet, and almost every scene requires him to do just that to avoid exposure and danger and to protect his only son, whatever the repercussions to others. The series title, "Your Honor," isn't just the judge's work title. It's also at the center of the show. When it comes to your family, what will you do to save them? And what effect will that have upon your moral code, your relationships with others and your honor?

DAVIES: David Bianculli is editor of the website TV Worth Watching and a professor of TV studies at Rowan University. He reviewed "Your Honor," the new Showtime miniseries starring Bryan Cranston.

On Monday's show, Terry will speak with Kate Winslet. She's starring in the new film "Ammonite," which tells an imagined version of the life of Mary Anning, a 19th-century self-taught paleontologist. In the film, Winslet's character has a passionate affair with a prosperous married woman played by Saoirse Ronan. Winslet's other films include "Heavenly Creatures," "Titanic" and "Sense And Sensibility." I hope you can join us.


DAVIES: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. For Terry Gross, I'm Dave Davies.


Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.

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