Skip to main content

Lena Dunham Addresses Criticism Aimed At 'Girls.'

The creator and star of HBO's new series Girls addresses the backlash against the show, which follows four 20-somethings as they navigate the ups and downs of life in New York City. The second season premieres January 13.

This interview was originally broadcast on May 7, 2012.


Other segments from the episode on January 11, 2013

Fresh Air with Terry Gross, January 11, 2013: Preview of Season Two of television program "Girls"; Interview with Lena Dunham; Review of album "Grant Green: The Holy Barbarian, St. Louis."


January 11, 2013

Guest: Lena Dunham

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Season two of HBO's "Girls," the acclaimed and sometimes controversial comedy starring and created by writer-director Lena Dunham, begins Sunday. Season one is now out on DVD, two reasons why today we're featuring Terry's interview with Lena Dunham from last year.

But first, in my role as TV critic, I'd like to review the new season of "Girls" and other comedies returning this weekend on HBO and Showtime.

Of all the cable comedies returning with new episodes Sunday, "Girls" is the most ambitious, as well as the most unpredictable and occasionally unsettling. When "thirtysomething" premiered on ABC more than 25 years ago - yes, it's been that long - that drama series was both embraced and attacked for focusing so intently on the problems of self-obsessed people in their 30s.

What that drama did for that generation "Girls" does for a new one and for an even younger demographic by presenting a quartet of young women in their mid-20s. I say young women. This HBO comedy - being completely upfront about how much its characters still have to learn and grow - is titled "Girls." That title is no accident, and the growing pains in this comedy sometimes are so uncomfortable to watch they make you squirm.

But "Girls," without question, has the definite aroma of both honesty and originality. The four main characters - aspiring writer Hannah, art curator Marnie, free spirit Jessa, repressed spirit Shoshanna - have problems holding on to jobs, maintaining their intimate relationships and even staying close to one another.

The breakups are messy, but so are the less dramatic times. Sex, in this series, usually gets down to equal parts passion and awkwardness, which makes it seem all the more real, and, like the emotions displayed throughout, all the more raw.

HBO sent out four episodes of Season two for preview, and a lot happens that I won't reveal here. It's important to acknowledge, though, that these young women, these girls, really are changing, and growing and adapting to tough life in the big city.

It's also important, I think, to note that the show addresses head-on one of the central complaints leveled against it last season: that Hannah's world was so relentlessly white. And it addresses it in such a clever way, it reveals just how smart a show "Girls" really is.

Hannah, played by Lena Dunham, is committed to a new boyfriend, Sandy, played by Donald Glover. Sandy happens to be black but also happens to be a Republican. And when he criticizes some of Hannah's writing in Episode 2, they begin to fight, and both sides end up playing the race card.


LENA DUNHAM: (As Hannah) I'm actually so happy that you didn't like it. If you just loved it like everyone else does, that would be so simple, but this actually opens up a dialogue about my work, the same kind of dialogue we've had about your political beliefs.

DONALD GLOVER: (As Sandy) There's no dialogue. I know what I believe. I'm steadfast in it. I'm fine with it.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) So you mean, like, even though you spend all this time with me and my gay roommate, you don't have any feeling that he should be allowed to have, like, a beautiful wedding, like all the ones we saw earlier on "Say Yes to the Dress"?

GLOVER: (As Sandy) Hannah, this is because I didn't like your essay.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) It's not because you didn't like my essay. It's because we're having an open conversation about things we believe in, and I'm also a little horrified by the fact that you think people should just be allowed to own guns.

GLOVER: (As Sandy) It's way more complicated than that.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) Is it, though, more complicated than that?

GLOVER: (As Sandy) Yeah, yeah it is.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) I also would love to know how you feel about the fact that two out of three people on death row are black men.

GLOVER: (As Sandy) Wow, Hannah, I didn't know that. Thank you for enlightening me about how things are tougher for minorities. Thank you.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.

GLOVER: (As Sandy) I am.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) OK, well, this is hard for me to say because I really like you, but I think our political beliefs are just too different and that we should just be friends.

GLOVER: (As Sandy) I knew this. This always happens. This always happens. I don't even know...

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) What always happens?

GLOVER: (As Sandy) This, this whole - like oh, I'm a white girl, and like I moved to New York, and I'm having a great time. And oh, I've got a fixed-gear bike, and I'm gonna date a black guy, and we're going to go to a dangerous part of town, all that bull (beep). Like yeah, I know this. I've seen it happen a million times. And then they can't deal with who I am.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) You know what? Honestly, maybe you should think about the fact that you could be fetishizing me because how many white women have you dated? It sounds like a lot from what you just said.

GLOVER: (As Sandy) What? Really?

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) And maybe you think of us as just one big, white, blobby mass with, like, stupid ideas that you can't deal with. So why don't you lay this thing down, flip it and reverse it because I don't think it's very nice.

GLOVER: (As Sandy) You just said a Missy Elliot there, and I'm sure...

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) I don't know who that is.

BIANCULLI: "Girls" is the polar opposite of a cable show like "The Sopranos" or "Breaking Bad" and not because it's a comedy and those are dramas. The dramatic scenes in "Girls," and there are lots of them, are plenty intense. But Tony Soprano and Walter White would go through entire seasons without ever uttering exactly what they're thinking, while on "Girls" that's just about all any of the characters do.

It's unfiltered honesty on parade, but it's quite a parade. And even though I'm way past the target demographic, I still find it a fascinating parade to watch.

All of the other cable comedy shows returning this Sunday, coincidentally, feature characters who talk openly, and a lot, and who are as abrasive as they are attractive. On HBO, "Girls" is followed by "Enlightened," starring Laura Dern as a demoted former executive trying to bring down her corporation from within. And on Showtime, there's a trio of shows starring dysfunctional protagonists, all returning with their season premieres this weekend.

On "Shameless," William H. Macy plays the patriarch of a resourceful family of con artists, a family that throws him out when he returns after an extended bender. On "Californication," David Duchovny plays a hedonistic writer whose family throws him into rehab.

And on "House of Lies," Don Cheadle plays a corporate adviser who is just the sort of scheming one-percenter Laura Dern's character is targeting over on "Enlightened."

Individually, these seriously flawed characters may make for bold TV writing, but collectively they're a little tiring. And as comedies go, or are supposed to go, they're not always that funny. But the fact that HBO and Showtime are going head to head with their best and brightest sitcoms, on the same night and at the same time, means both premium cable networks are taking their comedy very seriously and their competition, too.

But for me, of this entire group, the sitcom to take the most seriously is "Girls." I watch and enjoy all of the others, but "Girls" is the one that's the most surprising and, in the long run I suspect, will be the most memorable and influential.


PETER SCOLARI: (As Tad Horvath) Hannah, your mother and I have been talking, and we feel that it may be time - how can I phrase this? Well, we see how well you're doing at work, and you really seem to be figuring out what it is that you want. But it may be time for one final push.

LENA DUNHAM: (As Hannah) What is a final push?

BECKY ANN BAKER: (As Loreen Horvath) We're not going to be supporting you any longer.

SCOLARI: (As Tad Horvath) See, I wasn't going to phrase it like that, Loreen, the way you phrased it.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) But I have no job.

BAKER: (As Loreen Horvath) No, you have an internship that you say is going to turn into a job.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) I don't know when.

BAKER: (As Loreen Horvath) You graduated from college two years ago. We've been supporting you for two years, and that's enough.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) Do you know how crazy the economy is right now? I mean, all my friends get help from their parents.

SCOLARI: (As Tad Horvath) We are sympathetic to that.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) But I'm your only child. It's not like I'm draining all your resources. I mean, this feels very arbitrary.

BAKER: (As Loreen Horvath) You don't know anything about our finances. I mean, we're professors, Hannah, professors. You know, we can't keep bankrolling your groovy lifestyle.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) My groovy lifestyle?

BAKER: (As Loreen Horvath) The bills add up. We're covering your rent, your insurance, your cell phone.

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) You said it was cheaper for you if I was on the family plan.

SCOLARI: (As Tad Horvath) Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: (As character) May I get you more of anything?

BAKER: (As Loreen Horvath) Uh...

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) No, she's fine.


That was a clip from the premiere episode of "Girls," in which Hannah, played by Lena Dunham, was thrown out into the cold, cruel by her loving but no longer infinitely patient or generous parents. In season two of "Girls," Hannah still struggles financially and emotionally, but Lena Dunham, who created and portrays her, is doing just fine.

In 2010, she wrote, directed and starred in the independent film "Tiny Furniture," which led to her HBO series with Judd Apatow as one of its executive producers. She also a multi-million-dollar book deal now, all at the age of 26. Terry Gross spoke with Lena Dunham last year, when "Girls" was premiering on HBO.


We just heard the opening scene of "Girls," from episode one. And, you know, like your character gets off to such a kind of almost unlikeable start. You know, she sounds so entitled, like, no, you're my parents. You owe it to me to support me.


DUNHAM: She's - you feel like the next words out of her mouth are going to be: I didn't ask to be born.


DUNHAM: She doesn't say it, but it's implied.

GROSS: There's this sense of entitlement and also this sense that she wants to be treated as a child, but she also wants to be treated as an adult.

DUNHAM: Yeah, which I think is such a marker of this age. I mean, I - it's so funny, I am, you know, I am, you know, a working woman out in the world, but I still live with my parents half the time. I've been sort of taking this very long, stuttering period of moving out. And so I really relate to that feeling because I feel like I'm constantly asking them to please stay out of my work life but also please bring me soup.


DUNHAM: Like it's this weird moment where you just don't have a sense of what age-appropriate behavior is because there sort of is no such thing as age-appropriate behavior.

GROSS: Do you feel in a way that your character is getting off to an unfair start by opening the series in a way that's asking people to judge her, that's asking people to say, oh, she's so privileged, and, you know, she's so - she feels so entitled.

DUNHAM: Yeah, I mean, I think after that first scene, you have to earn - she has to earn the admiration of the viewer in some way, and, you know, it's up for debate whether she ever does that because the fact is I always say about Hannah - her name is Hannah Horvath, my character - and although she is in some ways very close to me, I also refer to her as her because she does feel like this sort of weird, alien succubus creature that I've created.

But she - you know, I always say that if there's two choices, the good choice and the bad choice, she'll look at both of them, seriously consider each and then in good faith go with the bad choice. Like she just does - so she's a little hapless and a little disaster-prone, and so, you know, it's not like in the next scene she redeems herself by acting like the most responsible woman you've ever met.

But I also think that it felt right to me to start kind of laying her issues bare immediately. I didn't want you to sort of - she doesn't, like, save a cat and then you find out that she's a brat. It's like you know and have to choose to love her despite it, if you are going to love her.

GROSS: And it must be difficult for you in a way because you wrote the series and conceived of it and star in it, people assume, well, Hannah is really just Lena Dunham, and therefore Lena Dunham is spoiled.

DUNHAM: I'm sure that I've had some really unattractive, spoiled moments in my years, but I've never - that conversation that Hannah had has never happened to me, in large part because when I graduated from college, my parents let me live with them, but they made it really clear that they weren't going to support any of my endeavors.

They were like you can live with us, and that's a great gift we can give you, but you have to have a job, you have to figure out, just like we did, how to have a creative life, and we're giving you a great step ahead by already living in the city that you want to be in, but we're not going to serve that function for you. Our parents didn't do it for us, and we don't think it's healthy.

GROSS: That was just making me think about how almost treacherous it must be to be so out there when you're still in a fairly formative phase, you know, when you're in the early days of independent adulthood, and you're putting your life out there on the screen in a transformed, fictional way, but you're drawing on your own experiences, and you're turning them into negative experiences for dramatic purposes, for your character.

So it really must be transformational for you to be going through this now, since the early 20s are a transformational period for most people one way or another.

DUNHAM: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny. My dad is a painter, and he teaches graduate school, and one of the things that he always says is he thinks students should wait until after graduate school to show their work because he thinks it's important to have that moment where you kind of are experimenting without the feeling of someone's gaze on you or without the feeling that you're sort of going to be held to the decisions that you make in your creative process throughout your life.

You need - but the thing is I come from a very different generation than my father. You know, bad poetry I wrote in high school can still be found on the Internet, and, you know, there's a Web log of our college newspaper. You know, there's so many different stages of my creative development are sort of on-record if somebody were to choose to look for them.

And so I've sort of just made the decision to be OK with the fact that I'm not going to love everything that I put out into the world, and I kind of go, well, maybe, my hope is oh maybe it'll sometime be helpful for another young artist to sort of see my development and see the way that it - that I sort of lived out loud a little bit.

But there's definitely times where I - where I don't think I let the sort of the weight of it hit me, the amount of stuff about my own life, the amount of images of my own body that I've put out into the world. And then I also love what I do, and no one has forced me to do it, but there's the occasional moment at, like, 3 in the morning where I suddenly realize, like, my breasts are on TV, as is a fairly accurate account of my first post-college relationship.

And you have your, like, five minute of existential terror before you return to sleep about that topic.

BIANCULLI: Lena Dunham, speaking to Terry Gross in 2012. More after a break; this is FRESH AIR.


BIANCULLI: Let's get back to Terry's 2012 interview with writer, director and actress Lena Dunham. Season two of her HBO comedy series "Girls" begins this Sunday.

GROSS: I think it's interesting that the title of the series is "Girls." When I was in my late teens and 20s, my friends and I insisted on calling each other and having other people call us women. It was the era of the women's movement, and we weren't girls, we were women, and we certainly weren't dames, we were women, and we weren't, like, ladies, we were women.

And so. to hear of a series like "Girls," and I think that's probably, maybe not but I think probably the word that most young women in their 20s would use to describe themselves now.

DUNHAM: It is. I feel like it's the word that most women in their early 20s use to describe themselves, and most rock singers use to address women who have done them wrong. So I like it for all of those reasons. You know, that was actually - that was the brainchild of Judd Apatow.

It had been going by the untitled Lena Dunham project for the duration of shooting the pilot, and Judd and I had looked at a list of titles I had come up with, and every single one of them had girl in the title somewhere. And this was actually before the sort of zeitgeist.

I mean, I think, like, four different shows came on the air with the word girl in the title this year alone, like "New Girl," then "Two Broke Girls." Then there was just an onslaught of - then some new show called "Dumb Girls" that was coming to MTV.

I was excited by all of their content and didn't want us all to be lumped into one big girl pile, but that's a digression. Judd said: What about if we just tried "Girls?" And as is a lot of times when somebody has a really great idea, my first reaction to it is total revulsion and then - probably because I didn't think of it.

And then I sat with it for a couple of hours and realized that there was something pretty perfect about it because even if the experience of these characters isn't universal, they think it is. The way they sort of get through their day is to go, like, we are having the classic female New York experience. We will be able to live to tell about this someday. We are the girls.

So there was lot of kind of poetic ways that it worked for me, and then when all those other girl shows started coming out, we sort of wondered: Are we supposed to change titles? Should we jump ship here? And my dad said don't do it, you have the meta-title. He was, like, "Girls" is the meta-title. And I trust my dad in most matters, creative and personal, so I quoted him loudly, and we kept going.

GROSS: So I want to play another scene from "Girls," and this is a scene where your character Hannah is going to her boyfriend to break up with him because he texted her a picture of his privates and then texted this wasn't meant for you, and she thinks, well, who was it meant for, and, like, what's going on here? Is there another girl?

And so you show up unannounced at his door to break up with him, and in this scene, you're explaining to him who you are and what kind of girl you are.


DUNHAM: (As Hannah) I've never asked you for anything. I don't even want anything, OK. I respect your right to see and do whoever you want, and I don't even want a boyfriend. So...

ADAM DRIVER: (As Adam Sackler) What do you want?

DUNHAM: (As Hannah) I just want someone who wants to hang out all the time and thinks I'm the best person in the world and wants to have sex with only me. And it makes me feel very stupid to tell you this because it makes me sound like a girl who wants to, like, go to brunch, and I really don't want to go to brunch, and I don't want you to, like, sit on the couch while I shop or, like, even meet my friends. I don't even want that.

GROSS: I think that's really interesting description of how she's defining herself as a girl. Why was it important for your character to get that out?

DUNHAM: Well, I think that there's a way that Hannah and, by extension myself, she has trouble with certain kinds of earnest expressions, and maybe that's a generational thing, maybe that's her own anxiety that if she expresses herself in a true way, she's going to get shot down. But I think it was important for her, even as she said this incredibly sort of sweet, heartfelt thing, which I want you to want to spend time with just me, I want you to want to be with me, I mean, she wants what everybody wants, which is, you know...

GROSS: She wants a monogamous boyfriend.

DUNHAM: A monogamous, loving partner, and yet she feels like she needs to explain that while she wants the thing everybody else wants, she is not like everybody else. And I think that is the important distinction to her is that she thinks with the desire for a boyfriend comes all of these other trappings of being a sort of, like, bougie(ph) woman that she doesn't think of herself as.

She's like, I'm a writer and a thinker, and so anything you equate with being a boyfriend is not what you're going to get with me, even though once they were together, she probably would want him to meet her friends, she probably would want him to sit on the couch while they shopped, and God forbid she would want him to go to brunch.

But in this moment, she sort of needs to define herself as this completely other type of woman, even as she wants what women want.

GROSS: But is your character trying to say I'm not the person you're going to see in chick lit or, you know, chick films, or you know what I'm saying?

DUNHAM: Definitely. I think she definitely is. I mean, I...

GROSS: And do you feel that way? Do you feel like I don't relate to a certain kind of character that I see in literature or that I see in movies?

DUNHAM: I do feel that way. It's funny because romantic comedy, when done right, is my favorite genre. You know, it's just a genre that's very human. It's - you know, the sort of - anything that has - "Bridesmaids" had a pink poster, and I loved it, but I don't want to call out any movie specifically.

But there is a certain kind of film that isn't even fun to me in a guilty-pleasure way, and there is a certain kind of chick-lit book that isn't even fun to me in a guilty-pleasure way because I don't see any of myself in it, because none of my - just none of my actions, maybe this is speaking to my age, which is 25, but I don't think this is the case.

None of my actions have ever sort of been motored by the search for a husband or wondering if I was going to have a family someday or wanting to live in a really great house or thinking it would be really great to have a diamond.

Like, there's just certain drives, and I know that maybe those things are representative of, like, a bigger desire for love or something else. I'm sure that those - that those writers would not appreciate me distilling their thesis down to the search for a diamond, but there's a kind of female character that doesn't make sense to me, if that makes sense to you.

BIANCULLI: Actress, writer and director Lena Dunham, speaking to Terry Gross in 2012. We'll continue their conversation in the second half of the show. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.


BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Season two of "Girls," the comedy series starring and created by Lena Dunham, begins Sunday on HBO, and season one is now out on DVD. Dunham plays Hannah, a young college who is having trouble finding a job, supporting herself and figuring out what she wants sexually and emotionally from her boyfriends - and what they want from her.

These issues extend to her former boyfriends, as heard in this early scene from season two. Hannah now lives with one ex-boyfriend, Elijah, who is gay. But she still drops in on another ex, Adam, played by Adam Driver, because he broke his leg just as they were breaking up their relationship.


DUNHAM: (as Hannah Horvath) OK. I have your pain medication, hand sanitizer, lotion, magazine, granola bar. You want that now?

DRIVER: (as Adam Sackler) No, I'll eat that later.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah Horvath) There's a bunch of stuff in here. I'll see you tomorrow.

DRIVER: (as Adam Sackler) Do you want to watch "Bag of Ants?"

DUNHAM: (as Hannah Horvath) I can't. OK, I'm walking to the door.

DRIVER: (as Adam Sackler) Do you want to watch "Bag of Ants Extras?"

DUNHAM: (as Hannah Horvath) No. Like Elijah's being a fascist dictator. I really got to go. I'll see you later.

DRIVER: (as Adam Sackler) Well, do you want to make balloon faces?

DUNHAM: (as Hannah Horvath) No. Like Elijah's being crazy. I have to go back to the party.

DRIVER: (as Adam Sackler) Hannah, stop. You're the best thing in my life. I don't know how to behave without you. I'd die if you go away.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah Horvath) I don't want to be with you.

DRIVER: (as Adam Sackler) You do. We laid right there in that month ago and you told me if you ever broke up with me that I shouldn't let you. Because you were just being crazy, and how every guy you ever loved was gay, and how I was the only one that made you feel anything. And I...

DUNHAM: (as Hannah Horvath) Don't get up, Adam. Don't get up.

BIANCULLI: Lena Dunham and Adam Driver, as Hannah and Adam, in the HBO series "Girls. Terry Gross spoke with Lena Dunham last year.

A heads up to parents of young children: Part of the following conversation is devoted to the sexual issues which are explored in "Girls." Nothing explicit but the subject of sex will come up during the next several minutes.

GROSS: So your character is in a relationship with a guy who - it's hard to tell if he really cares about your character or not. He wants a sex partner, that's for certain.

DUNHAM: Yes. He does want a sex partner, and he wants a flexible - a sex partner who is flexible both time wise, emotionally and physically.

GROSS: Yes. And he wants to enact certain sexual fantasies and have certain sexual positions that he seems to have probably gotten from porn sites. And your character goes along with it even though your character doesn't seem to be getting any sexual pleasure out of it. It's more like an activity they can do together, that makes him happy and that's OK with her.


GROSS: It's kind of like having a boyfriend who likes to go hiking and...


GROSS:'s not really your thing but you'll go on a hike with him.


GROSS: So do you get a sense that a lot of guys your age have learned about sex through porn sites and have these unrealistic and sometimes ludicrous ideas of what sex is like or what a girl would like?

DUNHAM: I do get that sense. I get the sense that there's a new kind of learned behavior. I had a conversation with Frank Bruni about this for The New York Times where he was asking me yeah, about the porn question and I told that there's certain things that you'll experience when, you know, not like I want to make it sound like I'm all over town, you know, testing different guys' sexual prowesses. But, you know, in my own personal limited sexual experience I've found that there are guys doing things where you go there's no way that that is your own personal instinct. You learned that from somewhere and it wasn't, you know, a birds and bees conversation with your mom and it also wasn't taught to you by a high school girl you met in Michigan. Like that you're your - that is something that you have, you know, learned through osmosis culturally and now A, want to try yourself, or even more insidiously, think that I will like. And I think that young people are really scared to tell each other what they actually want.

It's funny. I mean not to get too personal but I just found a diary that I kept in college. I've been an intermittent diary keeper always, never a faithful one. And there's some guy had done something. It wasn't anything, you know, to dramatic, like he'd just been I think sort of we kissed in college and he'd been sort of rough with me and I asked him if he always acted that way. And he said no, I don't. But with you I do because it's clearly what you want.


GROSS: What made him say that?

DUNHAM: Which was to me - I was looking back at it. I think at the time I just felt this guilt. I was like why am I - oh my God, what kind of girl am I that I'm projecting that that's what I want. How did I, you know, like just massive guilt? And I remember at the time thinking, oh my God, if I could just replay that and act differently then we could have had this sweet encounter and I've missed out on something great. And I realize now that that's just some way for a guy to shirk responsibility for some weird embarrassing thing that they've done. And I mean it's almost like your skirt was too short and you were asking for it. So I don't - that's the weirdest human interaction I have on record in my diary. But I was thinking that that encounter and that interaction has informed more of my work than I ever knew when I reread it.

GROSS: Do you think it's difficult, and I don't want to get too personal with you. I don't want to cross a line, so I'll ask generically.


GROSS: Do you think it's different - difficult for young, single women to say no to a guy who wants to try some things he's probably learned from a porn site and say, you know, I'm not going to enjoy that. That's not going to be pleasurable. It's not even going to be comfortable?

DUNHAM: I do. I mean it's difficult for me to say no to my friends who want to try a restaurant that I don't think I'm going to like.


DUNHAM: So it's like - so trying to say no to something that personal and specific it's - yeah, it's really hard. And I also think that, you know, maybe girls will rise up against me and go I don't know what your problem is but I feel perfectly comfortable saying no. But, you know, for me, I mean, I think that for young women sex is about sex but sex is also about wanting to be liked and wanting to be appreciated. And the fear when you say no is that someone will go OK, well then see you later. Like that you will, you know, lose your loving audience.

So, yeah, I think it is really challenging and I think in the sexual relationship on the show between Hannah and Adam I wanted to show that it's not a case of complete victimization. Hannah thinks about sex as a way to learn more about herself and she kind of feels like she needs to accept what ever opportunity to learn is offered to her. And Adam is continually testing the boundaries and also using sex as a way to experience to be close and also not to be close. And so he's not going to have the kind of sex where you, you know, move slowly and look into each other's eyes. He wants to be near another person but in the least intimate way possible. And as the season goes on you sort of learn more about his drives and who is and like what happens when they strip away a little bit of that role play but it's a complicated dance.

GROSS: Well, I think you just got to something really difficult emotionally, which is when sex becomes the least intimate way of communicating.

DUNHAM: Yeah. Which I think is...

GROSS: I mean that's, because you're at your most exposed and vulnerable so if that's not the most intimate and it's the least intimate, that's so uncomfortable, isn't it?

DUNHAM: Yeah. I remember in high school like long before I started having sex with anyone or kissing anyone, thinking this is - I mean this sounds like a real leap, but I've always had like a little bit of a morbid streak, like a little bit like we're all going to die so what's the point.


DUNHAM: Like that - that's where my brain goes when I'm tired. And I think I was like lying in bed and I was thinking like probably once you're in love and once you've had sex you're not scared of dying because you know what true connection is and you know what the world is all about. And then the minute that I had sex I understood that that was at least not yet in my experience the case and that it was not the cure to like all existential anxiety and that it's very possible to feel - to be naked and feel quite alone, which is poetic in its own way.

GROSS: I guess that's one of the points your show is trying to make.

DUNHAM: Yeah. And, you know, I hope that if we get some time to follow these characters that are going to learn that all of the, in quotes, "earning about themselves" that they're doing through sex will pay off and we'll actually see them know what they want and get it. I mean, I don't want people to sort of think that the show is going to be about awkward sex forever because awkward sex is funny but I also want it to be a means to an end for these girls because, you know, my dream for Hannah who is now, you know, a girl who is very close to me, is that she's going to at some point realize, you know, as I feel I'm beginning to, what she does and doesn't want and what she will and won't accept and then be able to say that. And so it would be a dream to be able to follow her to that point.

BIANCULLI: Lena Dunham speaking to Terry Gross in 2012. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.


BIANCULLI: Let's get back to Terry's 2012 interview with writer, director and actress Lena Dunham. Season two of her HBO comedy series "Girls" begins this Sunday.

GROSS: So, of course, you know, "Girls" is a comedy so even though STDs is a real anxiety-producing serious issue for the girls on the show...


GROSS: ...there's also comedic aspects of it. For example, when Hannah is told by her current boyfriend, Adam, that he doesn't have HPV. He got tested; therefore he couldn't possibly have given it to her. Then she thinks well, the only person I could have gotten it from is my old college boyfriend. So she makes an appointment to see him at a restaurant and she assumes that he's still in love with her. But she dresses up nicely to break the news that, you know, she got this probably from him and she thinks she's doing right by both of them in doing this but she's in for a big surprise.



GROSS: So here is Hannah with her old college boyfriend at a restaurant and he speaks first. Oh, and I should say he is played by Andrew Rannells, who is the star of the Broadway musical "The Book of Mormon." And he...


GROSS: ...he's really incredible. So here...

DUNHAM: He's really incredible and he is a great improviser too and a great - this was his first day ever besides the time that he played a headless male dancer on "Sex in the City," this was his first ever on-screen performance.

GROSS: Wow. OK. Here we go.


ANDREW RANNELLS: (as Elijah) It's really great to hear from you. Really great to hear from you. I mean I've been thinking how much I wanted to speak with you...

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) Well, Elijah, I'm really happy to see you too. I don't want to mislead you.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) Mm-hmm.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) I did not bring you here to re-tread old territory emotionally.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) OK.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) I'm more open to it physically and I brought you here to talk about something pretty specific...

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) Mm-hmm.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) ...which is a little bit touchy.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) All right.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) 'Cause I don't want to assume anything about you and other partners.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) It's true.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) It's true?

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) And I hate that you found out through the post collegiate rumor mill. But I'm glad that you heard because, you know, things with Bo were moving so quickly and I just felt like eventually we were going to either see you or...

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) Bo?

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) Well, that's his name. Yes.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) And Bo is...

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) My lover.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) Who is male?

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) Yes.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) I didn't know that.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) Oh.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) So you're gay.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) Oh, well, I don't, I don't say gay. I don't say straight either. I'm with a person of my own gender, which essentially means that I am, you know...

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) (Unintelligible) - which I love.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) Well, thank you.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) Which I love.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) Thank you. Oh, Hannah. Hannah. Hannah. Hannah. Hannah. Hannah. Don't.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) Don't.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) OK.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) Don't.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) OK.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) I'm fine. What I'm having right now is an inappropriate physical reaction to my total joy for you and your self discovery.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) Well, thank you so much. Thank you. And listen, I want you to know that this exploration was very much inspired by you. And...

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) I do explore.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) You do.

DUNHAM: (as Hannah) I mean right now I'm seeing this guy and sometimes I let him hit me on the side of my body, so.

RANNELLS: (as Elijah) I mean that's great that you're seeing someone.


GROSS: That's my guest Lena Dunham and Andrew Rannells in a scene from the HBO series "Girls." I think so many young men and women find out after relationship that their former partner is now, you know, a lesbian or gay. So has that happened to you? It's so - it's really a common experience.

DUNHAM: It has certainly happened to me.

GROSS: Yeah.

DUNHAM: It has happened to me more than once. And it's funny, my mom and I keep saying it must be genetic because she's got like a couple of them in her past, too. And so we - our hope is that what it means is that we are a comfortable resting place for a sensitive guy who is figuring things out. Our fear is that we turn men gay.


GROSS: Well, your character is really being so insensitive to his discovery about his identity.

DUNHAM: Oh my God, she's being such a brat. She says some really horrifying things. I was really hoping that my, you know, my gay male friends - of which I have many - would find it hilarious and not think that I was, you know, that I was expressing my own deep-rooted homophobia because it was really important to me to look at the honest way that an - even though Hannah is an enlightened, liberal girl probably thinks about gay men as her target audience, she still is not pleased to find out that she was dating one.

GROSS: And why isn't she pleased?

DUNHAM: It has much less with him being gay and much more to do with her own sense of identity and her own self-esteem. I mean, I think that her automatic go to place is, you know, you're gay because I'm fat. That's basically where her brain goes.


DUNHAM: So I think that's, I think that's the big anxiety, and also the sense that like your romantic past is a lie. I mean I think we really define ourselves by the idea that, you know, he loved me. That was, you know, I was passionately loved in college, and he's never moved past it is a huge part of the way that she kind of gets herself through the day.

So when she finds out that the person she has spun that narrative about is, you know, happily dating a guy named Bo, she's not going to have a positive reaction to that. And I think I was better about it than Hannah was, but there was still like a lack of understanding of the fact that now I can recognize, wow, coming out is really hard and even in sort of even if you've gone to a liberal arts school and have parents who sort of, you know, have PFLAG parents, it's still just, it's a challenging move to make in a world where gay rights are still not what they should be.

And so coming out is hard and I think that I wish Hannah and a little bit me had had a more sensitive reaction to sort of the courage that it took to make that transition in identity rather than deciding it meant that, like, my breasts were in some way was subpar.

GROSS: So one of the things that happens to your character in "Girls" comes directly from your own experience. She has tattoos on her body and the tattoos are illustrations from children's books.


GROSS: And I think that's almost - and I know that you have that too.


GROSS: And I think it's...

DUNHAM: We share it.

GROSS: I think it's a perfect illustration of the - a perfect metaphor for where the character is. She's trying to, like, assert her independence and adulthood through something like tattoos. But what are the tattoos pictures of? Childhood books.

DUNHAM: Yeah. That's amazing. I've actually never thought about that, but that's an incredibly clear, nice visual for what she's experiencing.

GROSS: So, why did you want your tattoos, which are usually signs of, like, rebellion, to be childhood books?

DUNHAM: Well, it's funny. I started - got my first tattoo when I was 17 and it was Eloise from the book "Eloise" on my lower back in the sort of tramp stamp place.


DUNHAM: And then from there on out I just, you know, the next idea I had was a children's book idea. I've always been drawn to sort of the - I've been drawn to like the softness but sophistication of children's book illustrations.

And there was something about being able to sort of carry my child - Eloise was a huge symbol of comfort for me. And so there was something about being able to sort of, like, carry those pieces of my childhood on me always and the idea that they would be that sort of a never-forget feeling that I really liked.

And so that was sort of I think the impetus for starting with the tattoos, and it really also was this thing which I say in the show about sort of taking ownership of your own body. Like, as I think so much body modification and kind of out-there style moves are that, it's sort of the desire to kind of reclaim your body and go this is not what society thinks it is. You may see a chubby teenage girl, but I'm making the choice - I am making bold choices about how I want to look and how I want to feel.

GROSS: So, to sum up here, you have pictures of your favorite childhood books on your body which every sexual partner will see.



GROSS: It's not exactly like the most sexually charged kind of imagery. I mean, who else is going to see those images, right? So...

DUNHAM: That's absolutely true.

GROSS: So what does that mean?

DUNHAM: Well, that's such an interesting question. You know, it's really funny. Firstly, it's always a topic of conversation whether you're doing a sex scene or whether you're doing actual sex what these things are, and I think, you know, when I started getting tattoos, it was before I had any sexual relationship to anybody. So, it was really about my relationship with myself.

And so I kind of like that they come from that spot, that they were never sort of sensually motivated, they were personally motivated. And so now I think about it more like, people who I'm naked near are seeing these artifacts of who I once was, and maybe getting a clearer sense of who I am. There's something very vulnerable about showing your tattoos to people, even while it gives you a feeling that you're wearing a sleeve when you are naked.

GROSS: Well, Lena Dunham, it's really been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much.

DUNHAM: Thank you so much, Terry. I really - you always make me think a lot.

GROSS: Oh, thank you. And congratulations on "Girls."

DUNHAM: Thank you.

BIANCULLI: Actress, writer and director Lena Dunham, speaking to Terry Gross in 2012. Dunham's HBO series "Girls" returns this Sunday, and season one is now out on DVD. Coming up, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead reviews a new CD featuring a recently discovered vintage recording by jazz guitarist Grant Green. This is FRESH AIR.

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST: Jazz guitarist Grant Green was a mainstay of the Blue Note label in the 1960s. Before that, while in his early 20s, Green was a journeyman player on the St. Louis club scene. A newly unearthed live recording from 1959 documents his early development, and jazz critic Kevin Whitehead says it's fascinating for more reasons than that.


KEVIN WHITEHEAD, BYLINE: Bob Graf on tenor sax from the newly unearthed "Grant Green, The Holy Barbarian, St. Louis, 1959." That could be the name of a fine stage play, perhaps based on the actual circumstances of the recording. One musician on the way up, another past his moment in the limelight and one more who had his chance but never quite made it all convene on Christmas night, part of their week-long stand at a beatnik hangout replete with chess players and a local artist painting portraits. The emcee chats loudly near the stage, then grabs the mic to spout what sounds like a send-up of beatnik poetry.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: In a subway far from Ireland, far, far away, far, far away, and how far away can you be? Don't ask me. Round and round she goes, and where she stops, damned if I know or care.

WHITEHEAD: There isn't much of that. Dramatic potential aside, the CD "The Holy Barbarian, St. Louis, 1959" is a vivid snapshot of live jazz in the heartland, half a century ago. Jazz has always had a deep bench: Not all great players head for New York; musicians tell stories of traveling stars getting sandbagged by local talent at friendly after-hours jam sessions. When the stars go back to the Apple to shake it off, the local heroes go right back to work.


WHITEHEAD: Grant Green on guitar, I love how cooking drummer Chauncey Williams hints at a Chicago blues shuffle. Even when Midwesterners play a million notes, they can convey a sense of relaxation; on that score, St. Louis is part of a rhythmic continuum from Oklahoma City to Chicago.


WHITEHEAD: Organist Sam Lazar's shot at fame came a few months later, when he recorded the first of a few sessions for the Argo label in Chicago. With Green on guitar, Chauncy Williams again on drums and blues titan Willie Dixon on bass. But Lazar's early '60s albums went nowhere, and a couple of sessions didn't even get released.

Even so, at the keyboard, Sam Lazar had a boxer's punchy timing and a gift for mining the Hammond organ's skankiest tambours. He's especially good backing another soloist. Boldly splashing on the colors, Lazar turns accompaniment into a kind of action painting.


WHITEHEAD: Bob Graf on tenor. Trumpeter Clark Terry had once recommended him to Count Basie. Graf played in a Basie small group in Chicago in 1950, before Woody Herman's band lured him out on the road. But then they broke up. By and by, Graf returned to St. Louis, working with various local bands and keeping up with modern ideas.


WHITEHEAD: Right around when this music was made, New York saxophonist Lou Donaldson came through St. Louis, heard Grant Green at a session across the river, and told the folks at Blue Note Records about him. They must have been very grateful: the guitarist did more than a dozen dates for the label in 1961 alone. Grant Green moved to New York to capitalize on all the attention. He kept up his ties with St. Louis, but he never recorded there again.

BIANCULLI: Kevin Whitehead writes for Point of Departure, Downbeat and Emusic and is the author of "Why Jazz?" He reviewed "Grant Green, The Holy Barbarian, St. Louis, 1959," on the Uptown label.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.

You May Also like

Did you know you can create a shareable playlist?


Recently on Fresh Air Available to Play on NPR


Daughter of Warhol star looks back on a bohemian childhood in the Chelsea Hotel

Alexandra Auder's mother, Viva, was one of Andy Warhol's muses. Growing up in Warhol's orbit meant Auder's childhood was an unusual one. For several years, Viva, Auder and Auder's younger half-sister, Gaby Hoffmann, lived in the Chelsea Hotel in Manhattan. It was was famous for having been home to Leonard Cohen, Dylan Thomas, Virgil Thomson, and Bob Dylan, among others.


This fake 'Jury Duty' really put James Marsden's improv chops on trial

In the series Jury Duty, a solar contractor named Ronald Gladden has agreed to participate in what he believes is a documentary about the experience of being a juror--but what Ronald doesn't know is that the whole thing is fake.


This Romanian film about immigration and vanishing jobs hits close to home

R.M.N. is based on an actual 2020 event in Ditrău, Romania, where 1,800 villagers voted to expel three Sri Lankans who worked at their local bakery.

There are more than 22,000 Fresh Air segments.

Let us help you find exactly what you want to hear.
Just play me something
Your Queue

Would you like to make a playlist based on your queue?

Generate & Share View/Edit Your Queue