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An Interview With The Real Sacha Baron Cohen

DAVID BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I’m David Bianculli of tvworthwatching.com,
sitting in for Terry Gross.

In 2006, the British comedian Sacha Baron Cohen became an international
sensation thanks to his starring role in “Borat.” It was a movie in which he
pretended to be a clueless and bigoted TV reporter from Kazakhstan, improvising
outrageous exchanges with unwitting U.S. citizens and politicians. Sacha Baron
Cohen is up to his old tricks again in a new movie but with a different
character, a flamboyantly gay fashion reporter from Austria named Bruno, who
also has conversations with people who aren’t in on the joke. He crashes
fashion shows in Europe, vies for celebrity in Hollywood and even tries to
broker peace in the Middle East.

(Soundbite of film, “Bruno”)

Mr. SACHA BARON COHEN (Actor): (As Bruno) Why are you so anti-Hamas? I mean,
isn’t pita bread the real enemy?

Unidentified Man #1 (Actor): (As character) You’re confusing Hamas with hummus,
I believe. Hummus has nothing to do with Hamas.

Unidentified Man #2 (Actor): (As character) Do you think there is a relation
between Hamas and hummus?

Mr. COHEN: (As Bruno) So was the founder of Hamas a chef? He had created the
food and then got lots of followers?

Unidentified Man #2: (As character) Hummus has nothing to do with Hamas. It’s a
food, okay? We eat it; they it eat.

Unidentified Man #1: (As character) It’s vegetarian. It’s healthy. It’s beans.

BIANCULLI: Bruno and Borat not only are played by the same actor but come from
the same source, “Da Ali G. Show,” a sketch comedy series that premiered in the
United States on HBO. Ali G., a cocky but dumb white rapper wannabe is yet
another Sacha Baron Cohen alter ego.

When promoting his film or TV projects, the actor usually prefers to stay in
character, but when Terry Gross spoke to Sacha Baron Cohen in 2007, he agreed
to speak to her as himself. They talked about his Bruno, Borat and Ali G., but
let’s begin with a clip from “Borat.” In this scene, he’s taking a driving
lesson.

(Soundbite of film, “Borat”)

Unidentified Man #3 (Actor): (As character) My name is Mike. I’m going to be
your driving instructor. Welcome to our country, okay?

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) My name Borat.

(Soundbite of kissing)

Unidentified Man #3: (As character) Okay, okay, good, good. I’m not used to
that, but that’s fine. So use two hands now.

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) What?

Unidentified Man #3: (As character) Two hands.

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) But then it look like I am holding a gypsy while I eat my
(unintelligible).

Unidentified Man #3: (As character) I don’t care what it looks like. You use
two hands when you drive, okay?

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) Okay. You want have a drink?

Unidentified Man #3: (As character) You can’t drink that while you’re driving.

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) Why not?

Unidentified Man #3: (As character) It’s against the law.

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) What? Look, there is a woman in a car. Can we follow her
and maybe make the sexy time with her?

Unidentified Man #3: (As character) No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat): (As Borat) Why not?

Unidentified Man #3: (As character) Because a woman has a right to choose who
she has sex with.

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) What?

Unidentified Man #3: (As character) How about that? Isn’t that amazing?

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) Is it joke?

Unidentified Man #3: (As character) There must be consent. How about that.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Unidentified Man #3: (As character) That’s good, huh?

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) Is not good for me.

TERRY GROSS, host:

Sacha Baron Cohen, welcome to FRESH AIR. You know, lots of comics have created
characters that they do in sketches, like everybody on “Saturday Night Live,”
but you take your characters into the real world, which is part of what makes
it so incredible. How did you start doing that?

Mr. COHEN: I started about 10 years ago. I was doing a TV show in London, and I
was doing an early form of the character that I used to do called Ali G., who’s
a kind of hip-hop journalist, a wankster reporter. And at the time, he was just
– it was just the character that I was recording, you know, little segments
for. And then I went out onto the street to record a particular segment, and I
saw this group of skateboarders, and the director I was with gave me a little
nod, and I went up to them and approached them and started interacting with
them in character. And then to my surprise, they actually took me seriously,
and when I doing some kind of terrible skateboarding tricks, they were laughing
at me, and they were mocking me. And then after a couple of minutes I, you
know, went back to my normal voice, and I said, you know this is a character?
And they were really surprised, at which point I realized that people would
believe me when I, you know, when I did this character.

So a tourist bus suddenly turned up. I jumped on it with the camera, kind of
commandeered the tourist bus, got dropped off, went into a pub, started break
dancing. The police were called, went into the offices of this major multi-
national, asked to see my father on the 14th floor. The police were called
again. And suddenly I realize there was this – there was never a question of
whether I was actually the character or not, but there was this incredibly
exciting form of comedy that I was suddenly in the middle of.

GROSS: Once you realized you could do it, why did you want to keep doing it?
What could you do that way that you couldn’t do with regular comedy on a stage?

Mr. COHEN: Well, I think there was an added element of satire. For example,
when I first started doing Borat, I realized it was a way to get people to
really open up. And at the time, you know, I realized the documentary was
essentially - you know, one of the ultimate aims of documentaries were to make
people feel so comfortable that they would forget the cameras were there, and
they’d really say their true feelings. And here was a way, you know, by
creating a foreign character, where people would really explain what they
genuinely felt about particular subjects, but immediately. You wouldn’t have to
leave the camera in the room for three months before they’d start opening up.

GROSS: Well, you know, as you say, you know, you created this character is
seemingly, like, really warm and lovable although naïve, but what he’s saying
is horrible. It’s so, like, sexist and anti-Semitic. And so people don’t know
how to react to him of course. And, you know, he’s so, like unenlightened, but
the real person who he’s talking to is always put on the spot.

Are they going to agree with the things that he’s saying? Are they going to
argue with him? Are they going to hold their tongue out of politeness? Are they
going to hold their tongue because they’re on camera. So, gosh, like, you’re
really putting people on the spot. What’s it like for you to be in character
watching people be so uncomfortable as they try to figure out what they should
do?

Mr. COHEN: I mean, it’s interesting. You know, it’s fascinating to see how
people are going to react, and it’s exciting however they react, you know. When
I was in the Country and Western bar in Tucson, Arizona, singing “Throw the Jew
Down the Well,” I didn’t know that the crowd were going to, you know, start
chanting along and start singing “Throw the Jew Down the Well” or even that
certain members of the audience would start miming horns.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: You know, but it’s exciting waiting to see what the response is,
whether people are going to answer with integrity or whether they’re going to,
you know, reveal certain prejudices that they have. And I think, you know, part
of the enjoyment of watching it is the space between the question and the
answer, where you’re waiting to see how the person will react.

You know, for example, there’s a moment in the movie where Borat asks, you
know, what is the gun to defend from a Jew? And there is that moment, there’s
about two or three seconds before the gun shop owner answers, you know, and
goes, actually it’s this, the Magnum .54 or whatever. So I think there’s –
that’s part of the enjoyment, actually…

GROSS: It’s terrifying, though, when he says that, isn’t it? It’s like Borat
had asked him what’s the best gun to kill a Jew, and he has an answer. It’s
just really scary.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: Yeah, it really is terrifying that you can go into a gun shop in
certain parts of the country and get advised on the best gun to defend yourself
from a Jew, and..

GROSS: Well, I’m glad…

Mr. COHEN: And actually – sorry – there was a lot of that interview that we
didn’t actually show. There’s about 20 minutes of Borat asking him, you know,
but I want a gun that, you know, shoot them very clearly because they jump.
They can jump very fast. And he goes, yes, I know. You know, this one’s great.
You know, and sort of questions like: Will this gun be able to shoot the horns
off a Jew from 50 meters? And he’s like, you know, yes, yes. You know, that
will be fine, you know. So it was a long, protracted discussion of, you know,
the perfect technical rifle to defend yourself from a member of the Semitic
tribe.

GROSS: I’m glad you mentioned “Throw the Jew Down the Well,” the song that you
sang at a bar in Tucson. That was actually “Da Ali G.. Show” but not in the
movie.

Mr. COHEN: Yeah, that’s right.

GROSS: And you’re doing this in character as Borat. This is – I think this is,
like, one of the most brilliant pieces of comedy that I know of.

Mr. COHEN: I thank you. That’s very kind.

GROSS: I love it. You’re in this bar as this character from Kazakhstan, and the
song starts: In my country, there’s a problem, and the problem is transport.
Okay, so far, so good, but the next verse is: In my country is a problem, and
that problem is the Jew. And then the refrain is: Throw the Jew down the well
so my country can be free. And it’s kind of an idiot’s version of the final
solution.

Mr. COHEN: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s – I think Borat’s impression of Jews is
really, you know, has its origins in the medieval ages, you know. So his Jew
has horns, you know. It is that kind of medieval anti-Semitic portrayal of, you
know, this demonic creature. And that’s why, for example, in the running of the
Jew, the Jews are these huge hallah and cleaver-holding monsters, you know,
with green faces and warts, that are chasing, you know, the poor, innocent
Kazakh men.

GROSS: Why don’t we hear a little bit of “Throw the Jew Down the Well,” which
is on the “Borat” CD.

(Soundbite of song, “Throw the Jew Down the Well”)

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) Singing) If you see the Jew coming, you must be careful
of his teeth. You must grab him by his money. And I tell you what to do.
Everybody. Throw the Jew down the well so my country can be free. You must grab
him by his horns. Then we have a big party. Throw the Jew down the well, so my
country can be free…

GROSS: That’s Sacha Baron Cohen, singing, in the character of Borat, from the
“Borat” CD.

You said that you didn’t expect that the people in the bar would be clapping as
you sang this song. So what was your reaction when people were really getting
into it. Do you think that meant that they were anti-Semitic, or maybe they
weren’t really paying attention to the lyrics? Maybe it was noisy, and it was
hard to hear. Like, how do you interpret it?

Mr. COHEN: That’s an interesting question. Firstly, it was very clear what I
was saying. So everyone was, you know, clearly heard throw the Jew down the
well, and they were singing along, and I sang it a number of times.

The question is: Does it reveal their anti-Semitism? You know, was everyone in
the bar anti-Semitic? And I think, you know, there’s a historian – not to bring
it down and to depress everyone – but there was a historian of the Holocaust
and of Nazi Germany called Ian Kershaw. He said quite an interesting thing,
which was that the path to Auschwitz was paved with indifference.

In other words, you don’t actually have to be a rabid anti-Semite to allow
certain things to happen. All you need to be is really indifferent. You can
listen to a song and just go oh, that’s actually quite a nice song, and I’ll
sing along to it. You don’t actually have be a – you don’t actually have to say
wow, these are really, really offensive lyrics. I’m going to stop. You know,
I’m going to walk out of the bar, but it’s that indifference that is actually
quite dangerous.

GROSS: But there’s a debate, a very lively debate, going on right now because
of your work, about whether this kind of comedy actually feeds anti-Semitism
and hatred or mocks it in a way that shows how stupid and pointless it is.

Obviously, you don’t think that it’s feeding anti-Semitism. I assume that if
you did…

Mr. COHEN: Oh no, I do, I do…

GROSS: You do think it’s feeding anti-Semitism?

Mr. COHEN: No, no, no, I’m joking. I’m joking.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: So tell me why you think it’s not harmful, do you know what I mean? Tell
me why you think it’s not feeding anti-Semitism.

Mr. COHEN: Well, I think an interesting test is to see how it played with
Jewish communities around the world. And for example in Israel, this has been
one of the most successful comedy films of all time, and there have been
standing ovations at the end of a lot of performances. And that’s partly to do
with the fact that Borat, when he speaks in Kazakh, he’s actually speaking in a
cross between Polish and Hebrew.

So there’s a deep irony in this viciously anti-Semitic character actually
speaking in the ancient Jewish language, but I think the reason that it’s not
actually, I think, encouraging anti-Semitism is that it’s showing that all
forms of prejudice are really delusional. So for example, Borat believes that,
you know, Jews were behind 9/11. However, he also believes that Jews can shift
their shapes into insects, you know, which is clearly delusional.

BIANCULLI: Sacha Baron Cohen, speaking to Terry Gross in 2007. More after a
break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

BIANCULLI: Let’s get back to Terry’s interview with Sacha Baron Cohen, star of
the new movie, “Bruno.” She spoke to him in 2007, after his film “Borat” came
out about a visiting journalist from Kazakhstan who was bumbling, clueless and
bigoted.

GROSS: You know, I was going to ask you if you could take liberties with this
anti-Semitic character because you’re Jewish yourself, because for instance you
can have him speaking Hebrew, but at the same time, I was thinking well, you
also have the character Bruno, the gay fashion reporter, and he’s gay, and you
do a lot of, like, funny gay stuff in it, but you’re not gay. So it’s like
you’re very brave as a comic and well…

Mr. COHEN: Well, I mean, I’m not gay. However, I have had a man’s testicles
rest on my chin.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: And it’s been in the movie. So I mean, technically does that not
make me gay?

GROSS: And for anybody who just didn’t comprehend, there’s this incredible
wrestling scene in the “Borat” movie that he was just referring to. So – but
anyways, is it different for you to play a gay character not being gay than to
play an anti-Semitic character and being Jewish? A lot of people feel that they
can take on characters if they are that kind of character themselves, and that
gives them liberties to do the kind of humor that they wouldn’t feel they had
the right to do otherwise.

Mr. COHEN: The main difference between doing Bruno and Borat, and Bruno is just
– for those who don’t know – is this Austrian, gay fashion reporter, is that
it’s a lot more dangerous doing Bruno because there is so much homophobia.

So for example, when I was doing Bruno at the Alabama and Mississippi football
game in Alabama a few years ago, 60,000 people starting chanting – in the crowd
– started chanting faggot and started throwing stuff at me and, you know,
taunting me and spitting at me and threatening to kill me, and those kind of
situations are a lot more common when you’re playing a gay character.

It’s almost as if homophobia is one of the last forms of prejudices that is
really tolerated.

GROSS: Now I think the incident you’re referring to, there’s a little clip of
that in one of the Ali G. episodes in the first season, in which, you know, the
character Bruno has joined the line of cheerleaders. Is that the same game?

Mr. COHEN: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right.

GROSS: But you don’t show – you show some people, like, yelling nasty things in
your face, but you don’t show 60,000 people in the stands jeering you. Why did
you decide not to include that?

Mr. COHEN: Well, we didn’t - the honest reason is we didn’t have them miked up
so you couldn’t actually hear it, but the thing was actually that day, I knew
it was going to get a little dangerous. So I decided to hire a bodyguard, but
the moment that the crowd starting jeering and booing and chanting faggot, I
turned to see where the bodyguard was, and I saw the back of his head as he was
running out of the stadium. So he kind of left us high and dry.

GROSS: So what did you do?

Mr. COHEN: Well, I carried on in character. I mean, it’s a bizarre feeling, but
it was actually quite exciting, and in the character, you know, at the time I
get very invested in the characters, and I kind of almost believe I am the
character.

So feeling like a gay guy taunting 60,000 bigots, it felt actually very
invigorating, and that’s when I joined the line of the cheerleaders and started
taunting the crowd, because I knew it was almost sacrilegious to them for a gay
man to be standing on their football pitch. And actually, the funny thing was a
few years later, I went down to Alabama to shoot “Talladega Nights,” and I got
introduced to the NASCAR audience at the big Talladega race. And there was a
crowd of 200,000 people, and I was playing a French – once again, a French gay
character there in the movie “Talladega Nights, and Will Ferrell’s character
was introduced first, and everyone cheered for him, the whole crowd who were
made up of genuine fans cheered for his character.

And then they introduced my character as being from France, and the entire
crowd started booing again. So it was actually the second time in Alabama that
I’ve been booed at by a crowd of over 60,000 people.

GROSS: Articles that have been written about you have described you as an
observant Jew, and it’s surprising to some people that you are practicing in
your religion, I think because – I think it’s surprising because you break so
many taboos with your humor, and in your humor, like, nothing’s sacred. So the
fact that in your life, some things really are sacred might come as a surprise
to people.

Mr. COHEN: Well, I should probably qualify that. I mean, I wouldn’t say that
I’m a religious Jew. I’d say that I’m very, very proud of my Jewish identity.
I’m proud to be a Jew, and there are certain things that I do that are, you
know, Jewish customs and traditions.

Friday night, you know, I enjoy being with my family when I’m in England, and
you know, we’ll light the candles and, you know, a couple of times a year,
we’ll go to synagogue, and I try and keep kosher, as well.

So those are things, but they’re not really derived from – they’re not really
because I’m religious. They’re more kind of traditional things and are things
that I do because I’m, you know, culturally and historically, you know, proud
of my Jewish identity.

GROSS: Can I ask what your Bar Mitzvah was like?

Mr. COHEN: Yes. I actually provided the entertainment.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Oh great.

Mr. COHEN: I was very into break dancing at the time.

GROSS: Break dancing?

Mr. COHEN: Yeah, I was a break dancer, and I put down the linoleum on the floor
of the marquis, and me and my crew performed for about an hour and a half.

GROSS: Oh, that’s so great.

(Soundbite of laughter)

BIANCULLI: Sacha Baron Cohen speaking to Terry Gross in 2007. We’ll hear more
of their conversation in the second half of the show. I’m David Bianculli, and
this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I’m David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with
more of Terry's interview with Sacha Baron Cohen.

He's the actor and writer behind "Bruno," the new movie in which he plays a
flamboyantly gay fashion reporter from Austria. Baron Cohen originated the
character on his TV series "Da Ali G. Show" which also gave birth to the
Kazakhstan TV reporter Borat and the white wannabe rapper, Ali G.. "Da Ali G.
Show" ran for two seasons on HBO and the entire series has been released on
DVD. Terry spoke with Sacha Baron Cohen in 2007 when "Borat" was in theaters.

GROSS: There's a scene in an evangelical church in which as Borat, you are
saved, and people are praying over you, and they're speaking in tongues. And
present at the church are both a congressman and a State Supreme Court chief
justice. This struck me as one of the most unusual scenes I've ever seen in
movies...

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: ...because here you are, a Jewish actor in character as this Kazak anti-
Semite who’s in this church getting saved. And, of course, nobody in the church
seems to know that you're an actor doing all of this. So there's - I don't know
where to start. Let's start with...

Mr. COHEN (Actor, Writer): Sure.

GROSS: ...was it uncomfortable for you impersonating somebody who is Christian
and getting saved in a church and having people really kind of praying for you?

Mr. COHEN: I mean the interesting thing about that scene was that it worked
exactly as we needed it to work because essentially the film was very
experimental. We had two things that we had to accomplish in each scene. Each
scene had to be funny but it also had to achieve a certain story beat. It had
to push the story forward and that really had never really been done before in
a movie. And so in that particular scene Borat was at his lowest point. He
starts the scene at his lowest point ever. You know, he's contemplating
suicide. He's almost killed himself the night before. He decides not to kill
his chicken.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: He's given up on his dream of marrying Pamela Anderson after finding
out that she's no longer a virgin.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: And you know he really is at his lowest point ever. And so we needed
a scene where he'd leave the end of Act II and emerge into Act III
reinvigorated, was full of life and with this renewed sense of purpose and a
renewed mission to actually wed and bed Pamela Anderson. And the church was the
perfect opportunity to do that. And the interesting thing was actually writing
the scene. And I have to say that a lot of the scenes, you know, we wrote a
kind of rough script of how we thought people would react and what we wanted
from the scene, so we knew the beginning of the scene and how this - we wanted
the scene to actually you know go. And the weird thing was that the church
pastor was so predictable that he actually almost said everything that we
anticipated him saying.

GROSS: Like?

Mr. COHEN: So for example, when you know Borat goes...

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) Who can save me? No one can save me.

Mr. COHEN: We wrote in the script the pastor says, there is someone who can
save you. Jesus can save you. And that is what - that's almost word for word
what he actually said. So that was the bizarre thing, was that it was, the man
was such a fundamentalist that he was - he became incredibly predictable.

GROSS: Well, you know the scene is just kind of gripping and it just raises so
many questions about how you felt you know...

Mr. COHEN: Well, yeah, I mean I'll tell you how I felt. I mean it was actually
- it was a very, very strange experience as an actor. I mean I totally lost
myself in the role at that point. You know when they actually start, you know,
saving Borat I was there and it’s just so overwhelming because you have about
six men you know pressing on you at the time. I had a man on either side
holding my arms. And actually, interestingly enough, they start shaking your
arms so it looks like you're you know you're possessed or you're, you know,
you're suddenly seized by this greater force. And then you, you know, you're -
there's not much oxygen there. The pastor would shout at me and say you can
speak in tongues now. You can speak in tongues. And so when you actually start
moving your tongue and start speaking they're so excited that it's this really
overwhelming experience, so it was really bizarre you know.

GROSS: So what did the people in the church know when you got there? Or like
typically what do people know? What kind of release form do you give them? What
did the crew tell them about what to expect?

Mr. COHEN: They were told that there's a foreign journalist who's coming to do
a piece on, you know, that particular church and he's at a low point in his
life at the moment. He's had a particularly tough time while crossing America
and he might be looking for a, some kind of spiritual salvation.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Do people ever feel betrayed afterwards when they see what the film
really is?

Mr. COHEN: I think most people don't. I think 99 percent of people don't. You
know a lot of them hear about it and I've obviously been doing this for many
years. A lot of them hear about it through their kids who suddenly call them up
and go dad, you're on TV. You're on the "Ali G. Show."

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: And they suddenly, you know, achieve this kind of street cred.

GROSS: So they don't know until then? Like you never go back...

Mr. COHEN: No.

GROSS: ...to them and say guess what? It was all like kind of "Candid
Camera"...

Mr. COHEN: No.

GROSS: ...or something and they don’t find out until someone tells them?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: Yeah. They don't find out until it goes on TV.

GROSS: Uh-huh.

Mr. COHEN: Or you know on the film and that, you know, that's something that
I'm quite rigorous about in that from the moment they meet me to the moment I
leave I'm fully in character. You know, I don't want - we didn't want to ever
have that kind of hey, gotcha moment where they go, oh all right. It was a
joke, you know because we want it to be a kind of real experience.

But for example, it does - there are certain people that - who are initially
upset by it and then actually realize that it was actually beneficial for their
careers or for their, you know, for their status. For example, there was a
famous socialist politician in London called Tony Benn. He used to be actually
Lord Benn but gave up his title. And I interviewed him as Ali G. and afterwards
he found out and he was very upset. But he wrote an article in the Times about
a month later expressing how his initial feeling was that of betrayal and upset
that this guy had you know basically hoodwinked him. But then he later
explained in the article that he felt that the, he actually had become a fan of
you know the whole show and a fan of, you know, had started loving the
character of Ali G. because the character of Ali G. had actually given him an
opportunity to explain to people finally what he had actually believed, what
socialism was. And because he had this ignoramus in the room with him...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: ...who was espousing the most right-wing and totally selfish
attitudes, he was able to kind of put down Ali G. and really put his viewpoint
across. So I think there's lots of people who, you know, really benefit from
being in the film and, you know, being in the show before that.

BIANCULLI: Sacha Baron Cohen, creator of the characters Borat, Bruno, and Ali
G., talking to Terry Gross in 2007. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

BIANCULLI: Let's get back to Terry's 2007 interview with Sacha Baron Cohen, the
creator of the characters Borat, Bruno, and Ali G.. His latest movie called
"Bruno" opened last week.

GROSS: You know in taking your characters into the real world, you're also
taking physical comedy into the real world. And slapstick and physical comedy
is something like the oldest stuff in comedy, like from Vaudeville and the
early days of movies, and it's hard to do that in fresh way but you're
incredible. I mean like there's a scene in the "Borat' movie in which you're in
an antique store...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: Yeah.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: It's not a very high priced antique store but it's an antique store, and
suddenly you start falling and like knocking all over all the dishes. And then
each time you pick yourself up you start falling over and knocking off more.
And it's really hysterical because it’s in the real world. And, of course, the
owner is just horrified looking at everything that's being ruined. And I'm
thinking too as I watch it that this isn’t like special effects china. This is
like real stuff. You could really hurt yourself. I mean it's very risky
slapstick and in a way that I think slapstick usually isn't.

Mr. COHEN: Yeah. Well, it was - actually funny enough. I did cut myself and I
was actually bleeding for the remainder of the scene. So we actually cut for a
little bit while I went off to the bathroom and washed off some of the blood.
But that was a tough physical set piece because I knew the rough configuration
of the shop. What happens beforehand, before each scene is the director, Larry
Charles, comes into the van and draws out the location so I can kind of
visualize it in my mind. And by the way, at that point I'm actually Borat so
he's speaking to me...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: He's speaking to the Kazakhi reporter.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. COHEN: And I'm answering...

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) Yeah, I’ll say, by the - you know maybe we'll put the
camera here. Is the...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) ...the antiques over here.

Mr. COHEN: You know, so we’re discussing the actually scene and he's drawing it
all out. So I knew - I realized where those antiques were and I knew I had once

chance to knock over all the cheapest antiques in the shop. You know, we'd
intentionally positioned all the cheapest antiques in one particular area of
the shop so that...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: ...so that the scene wouldn't cost too much money and so that we
wouldn't also...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: ...also so that we wouldn’t cause any real upset to the people
there. But I knew yeah, I knew I had one take to get it right and it was quite
a tough set piece. I knew I had to fall, you know, fall over then slip on this
truck, then fall backwards, then put my head down to, you know, pick something
up, stand up, knock a table over, and then fall backwards again, and then fall
on to the floor. And, so it was this you know really convoluted routine and
luckily it worked.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: One of the things I love about Borat is that you know he's such a funny
character. He makes kind of sex and the human body so unappetizing.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: The costumes...

Mr. COHEN: Thank you. Thank you. I take that as a compliment.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah. The costumes that you wear...

Mr. COHEN: That's actually - that is actually my body.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: I know.

Mr. COHEN: Actually Borat's body and my body.

GROSS: It's the clothing though. It's the clothing that...

Mr. COHEN: Thank you. Thank you.

GROSS: ...the mesh underwear. That like jockstrap bikini that...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: Yeah.

GROSS: ...that wraps around his - that's supported by a strap that goes around
his neck.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: You know, I must say actually that Borat’s underwear is actually
provided by my father. That was my dad's underpants.

GROSS: Seriously?

Mr. COHEN: Yeah. Those are my dad's underpants which are...

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Uh oh.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: ...which are actually made by the Norwegian Navy. And there was one
occasion where I actually lost my underpants as Borat. I was doing a scene,
which actually didn't make it into the movie, where Borat, strapped for cash,
starts work as a door-to-door salesman. And he goes into one house and he's
trying to sell them you know subscriptions to the local newspaper. And while
he's there - by the, you know he hasn't washed. He's very poor. He's goes...

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) You know, can I use a bathroom, please?

Mr. COHEN: And Borat emerges about five minutes later naked apart from he's
wrapped in a towel which is their towel and he's holding one of their
toothbrushes and going...

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) Which toothpaste can I use?

Mr. COHEN: At which point I was thrown out of the house by this family. They
called the police. And so I'm standing outside in a towel which does not belong
to me.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: And I can hear police sirens getting closer and closer.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: And I'm looking to the director going...

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) What do I do?

Mr. COHEN: Because - and I was thinking in my mind...

GROSS: Still in character.

Mr. COHEN: I mean yeah, obviously, I'm still in character. And I'm thinking, my
costume is in the bathroom of this you know at this house.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: I'm standing in a towel that does not belong to me. Now, if I run
into the van and you know we make a getaway before the police come, it means
that I'm actually stealing some property so I can down for theft. However, if I
take the towel off, I can be down for indecent exposure. So I was in this
terrible dilemma. What I do, and the, you know sirens are getting louder and
louder. And in the end I just ran into the van and you know I hid underneath
the seat and got on the phone to my lawyer.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: And still, by the way, in character going...

Mr. COHEN: (As Borat) Hello, what do I do?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. SACHA BARON COHEN: (As Borat) I do not want to be down for indecent
exposure. Do I throw out the towel? Do I throw the towel out?

Mr. COHEN: And finally...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: ...I was taken to a safe location and we negotiated to get the
costume back and the underpants. And...

GROSS: Why did you have to talk to your lawyer at that point in persona?

Mr. COHEN: Why did I have to be in persona? I don’t know, it’s basically during
the days I stay as Borat. So, I wake up, and then from the moment I get into
the crew van, until the moment I get home, I stay as Borat.

GROSS: And if the police arrested you, would you stay as Borat?

Mr. COHEN: Yeah. I mean the police did come and we had – I think there were 42
or 43 occasions where law enforcement agencies came and, you know, stopped the
scene for whatever reason. And that ranged from the NYPD to the FBI to the
secret service. And whenever they stop me I stayed in character, because I
never knew if it was sounding that we could use the actual movie. So, when the
secret service, you know, started questioning me outside the White House
because they’re convinced that we’re terrorists.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: Because we’re driving in an ice-cream van passed the White House.
So, we’re clearly al-Qaida. You know, I stayed in character because you never
know when it’s going to be something that’s useful. And, you know, and that
happened a number of occasions, you know. I mean the film became increasingly
hard to do because various law enforcement agencies were intent on stopping
production or arresting, you know, me. And we had a rule which was, basically,
that I couldn’t get arrested because if I go arrested because I’m not a U.S.
citizen. It would essentially mean that production would have stopped.

But along the way there were various other people who got arrested. So, within
the first week of shooting, actually the first Wednesday night, the line
producer and the first A.D. were arrested and spent a night in jail. So, there
was always this constant fear of being arrested and trying to get the scene and
trying to get the comedy before the police turned up.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: If you’re just joining us, my guest is Sacha Baron Cohen. And he does
Borat, Ali G.. and Bruno. And I wanted to just ask a couple of Ali G.
questions. You know, I’d had – I’ve had several debates with friends of mine
about whether the character of Ali G.., who is this kind of hip-hop wannabe,
who hosts his own TV show - and of course you do the character of Ali G.. -
it’s always unclear to me whether he’s a white hip-hop wannabe or whether is a
Muslim hip-hop wannabe, because, you know, he’s a name of Ali - he might be of
Arabic descent and living in London and really want to be a hip-hop gangster.
So, straighten me out.

Mr. COHEN: You know what, I prefer not to.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: I think it’s important, actually, to keep the ambiguity. I mean the
important thing about Ali G.. is that he’s not black. And he is delusional, so
he believes that he is a - you know, a black hip-hop artist from Staines, and
you know, he believes that his neighborhood is a rough ghetto, when in fact it
is this lovely, leafy middle-class suburb outside Windsor, where swans swims
under the beautiful bridge. So, I think that’s really what it is. It’s about a
guy - it’s not important, really, whether he’s Arabic, or whether he’s Jewish,
or whether he’s Greek. It’s important that he’s to lose it really.

GROSS: You’ve done characters like Ali G.. and Borat in the United States and
in England. Are there are a lot of differences between what the character does
in both countries and what the reactions to the characters are?

Mr. COHEN: There were subtle differences and now certain people and certain
types of people that the certain characters work better with. So, for example
in England, Ali G.. and Borat worked very well with the upper class, because
they’re so polite that they would, you know, keep this person in their room,
you know, members of the working class might throw them out. And members of the
middle class might not have revealed themselves as much. And then, you know,
there were certain sectors of society here in America, that we’re also, you
know, ideally suited for, you know, certain various characters.

So, we found that the deep South was ideally suited for Borat, because people
were so polite and so welcoming of strangers. And also so proud of the American
heritage, that they would, you know, talk to this person about American society
and about American values, you know, for an hour and a half.

GROSS: I want to thank you so much for talking with us.

Mr. COHEN: Nice, thank you very much for having me on this. I’ve appreciated
that.

BIANCULLI: Sacha Baron Cohen speaking to Terry Gross in 2007. His new movie,
“Bruno,” in which he stars as a flamboyantly gay fashion reporter from Austria,
premiered last week. Coming up, film critic David Edelstein reviews the new
movie, “Humpday.”

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Hardcore Turns Hilariously Awkward In 'Humpday'

DAVID BIANCULLI, host:

Humpday is the latest example of what has been called bromantic comedy. In this
case, the straight male bodies wonder if their attraction might go beyond mere
friendship. It’s directed by independent filmmaker Lynn Shelton, who likes the
later actors improvise their parts. Humpday won a special jury prize in this
Sundance Film Festival. Film critic David Edelstein has a review.

Mr. DAVID EDELSTEIN (Film Critic): Yet another reason to envy folks, who live
in the Pacific Northwest is that the Dan Savage-edited Seattle alt-weekly The
Stranger runs a yearly amateur porn video competition called Hump. And
apparently there are lots of people — respectable people; straight, gay, and bi
— who sit around brainstorming about what kind of eight-minute hardcore movie
they'd like to make and/or perform in. Strange doors open in the mind.

Now, Seattle director, Lynn Shelton uses the real Hump Festival as a
springboard for a fabulously squirmy, semi-improvised chamber comedy called
“Humpday.” It centers on two seemingly straight men — 30-something former
college roommates — who decide that a surefire contest winner would be then
having sex with each other. High concept. Actually, it is a high concept,
arrived at while they are stoned and drunk and lying around a bohemian bisexual
enclave. How they came to that enclave is complicated. When we first see Ben, a
city planner played by Mark Duplass, he's living contentedly with his pretty
wife, Anna, played by Alycia Delmore. In the first scene they're on the brink
of having sex — then they tactfully, carefully determine they're both too tired
to follow through, and they're each relieved they're not disappointing the
other.

It's an apt overture: You've heard of the fog of war? This is the fog of love.
Are they happy as they get ready to start a family, or a little bored?

There's a knock at the door and it's Ben's wander-lusting buddy Andrew, played
by Joshua Leonard, whom Anna has barely met and Ben hasn't heard from in years.
It's Andrew who introduces Ben to the omni-sexual hedonists, who tell him about
the competition and set the wheels of their so-called art project in motion.
The tension in “Humpday” is whether these old pal’s will, in the sober light of
day, go through with that art project — and how they'll justify it to Anna,
who's having trouble enough getting Ben to have sex with her. Ben and Andrew
aren't quite sure what they should do, and since the movie is largely
improvised from Director Shelton's outline, the actors are mumbling and
fumbling and thinking on their feet along with their characters. Andrew tries
to frame it one way, Ben another.

(Soundbite of movie, “Humpday”)

Mr. MARK DUPLASS (Actor): (As Ben) We’ve got really (beep) different lives now

Mr. JOSHUA LEONARD (Actor): (As Andrew) True.

Mr. DUPLASS: (As Ben) And I get that in the paradigm in which you live these
weird conversations are not things that are really appropriate and that, you
know, that I don’t – I don’t think any less of you for it. You know, that…

Mr. LEONARD: (As Andrew) And first of all, let’s just take the – take this down
just a second. You’re not as Kerouac as you think you are, even though you’ve
got the head band on. And I’m not as white picket fence as you think I am.
Okay? Like the black and whites in which you’re thinking this, is a little bit
extreme. Okay.

Mr. EDELSTEIN: Talking about sex, these guys can barely put two words together
without the whole thing turning into linguistic slapstick.

(Soundbite of movie, “Humpday”)

Mr. LEONARD: (As Andrew) Dibs(ph), you’re not Gary(ph)?

Mr. DUPLASS: (As Ben) I don’t – I don’t think I’m gay, I just thought…

Mr. LEONARD: (As Andrew) But even you’re pretty solidly not gay.

Mr. DUPLASS: (As Ben) I think, yeah I think it was same thing about you too.

Mr. LEONARD: (As Andrew) I just – I wish I was more gay, I feel like…

Mr. DUPLASS: (As Ben) Tomorrow would be more fun.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. EDELSTEIN: In its way, “Humpday” is more subversive than Bruno because
there aren't any flaming queens: Gay, straight, bi — it's all shades of gray.
Maybe Ben and Andrew's manly wrasslin' has no sexual component. Maybe it has a
lot, or a little. Director Shelton gives every sexual epithet a devilish spin,
so that the movie is wall-to-wall banana-peel, Freudian slips. If there's a
flaw in Humpday, it's that Ben and Andrew have less of a sexual vibe than many
straight guys in buddy pictures.

There's another kind of chemistry on display, though: the comic kind. When
Duplass sits opposite Delmore and dithers and lies and talks about everything
but what he's really feeling, it's screamingly funny. And it's not just
Duplass's babbling, it's Delmore's uncomprehending stares, like someone trying
to play charades opposite a Martian. Shelton films all this with both satire
and sympathy. “Humpday” is like a dramatic neutron bomb, exploding inner lives
while leaving social structures intact. Until next year's Hump Fest, that is.

BIANCULLI: David Edelstein is film critic for New York Magazine and you
download Podcasts of our show from freshair.npr.org. We will close today’s show
from this hit from Dion, who turns 70 tomorrow. Happy Birthday, Dion.

(Soundbite of song, “Runaround Sue”)
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Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.