Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis

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TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're going to remember three people from the music world who died this week of the coronavirus.

We start with jazz guitarist Bucky Pizzarelli. He died Wednesday at age 94. He was one of the great rhythm guitarists. Listening to him play was like listening to a history of jazz guitar. He played with Benny Goodman, Joe Venuti, Stephane Grappelli, Zoot Sims, Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Rosemary Clooney and Peggy Lee. He played in The Tonight Show orchestra when the show was broadcast from New York. In an era when studio musicians were in demand, he was one of the most sought-after. He also recorded with his son, guitarist and singer John Pizzarelli.

We'll hear an interview with John and Bucky a little later, but we'll start with a 1992 interview and performance we recorded at the Museum of Television and Radio in New York in front of a studio audience.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: Let's get started with a tune. Why don't we start with a ballad?

BUCKY PIZZARELLI: I'd like to do a number written by Ray Noble called "The Very Thought Of You."

(SOUNDBITE OF BUCKY PIZZARELLI SONG, "THE VERY THOUGHT OF YOU")

GROSS: That was great.

(APPLAUSE)

GROSS: I should mention, your guitar is not the kind of standard guitar; it's a seven-, not a six-string guitar.

B PIZZARELLI: It's a seven-string guitar developed by George Van Eps, who was - who lives in California at the moment.

GROSS: So what do you do with the seventh string?

B PIZZARELLI: Well, it's good for accompanying. If I'm playing with another guitarist or a singer, I'm doing this.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

B PIZZARELLI: That gives me a bass. That's like a bass and a guitar playing together. Without the seventh string, it would just sound...

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

B PIZZARELLI: So it gives it that low note.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: That's nice, yeah. Speaking of which, you are one of the great rhythm guitar players. For our listeners who don't know what we mean when we say rhythm guitar, play a little bit of rhythm guitar and show us what...

B PIZZARELLI: Well, rhythm guitar is the very most important thing of playing the guitar. If - I advise anybody that wants to play guitar to learn how to play the chords first. That's how I learned. You know, in the old days of Gene Autry on the radio, he was doing...

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

B PIZZARELLI: But it's very important to know the chords. You know, it's funny, but it's important. A lot of young guitarists start playing solos, and they forget about playing chords. And I'll show you - I'll give you an example how Freddie Green - probably the greatest, the rhythm guitar player with the Count Basie Orchestra - played the rhythm. And if you listen to any of the old Count Basie bands, the most predominant thing of the band and the sound of the band is the rhythm guitar. And he's only playing a few notes and a chord - not a full chord.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

B PIZZARELLI: He's not doing that. He's playing...

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: What's the hardest thing about playing rhythm guitar?

B PIZZARELLI: Well, getting a beat out of it. You become a drummer...

GROSS: Right.

B PIZZARELLI: ...That one spot. And if you don't come down after the bass player plays the downbeat - you're playing the second and fourth beats of the bar of music. And it's that commitment. If it's a slow - the slower the song is, the harder it is, and you better be right when you come down with it.

GROSS: You know, you've had such an interesting career just playing with all the jazz musicians, doing all the studio work. I mean, I can't believe you're on sessions with Dion and the Belmonts.

B PIZZARELLI: (Laughter).

GROSS: Does that - were you into the music, or was it just a gig - you show up, you play it?

B PIZZARELLI: No, really, I learned a lot from a lot of those people, you know?

GROSS: Yeah?

B PIZZARELLI: Because in those days, mostly everybody was trying to play jazz gigs or play with dance bands. And dance bands were just fading then, and everybody was migrating back to New York. And if you owned a guitar, they put you on a rock 'n' roll date, you know? And a lot of people don't know that some of the best jazz guitar players were on the best rock 'n' roll dates (laughter).

GROSS: Barney Kessel's on a lot of them, too, yeah.

B PIZZARELLI: Oh, everybody.

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah.

B PIZZARELLI: George Barnes, Tony Mottola and Mondello - we all did sessions every day, and we never had the kind of guitars that the kids are buying today to play those sessions. We had all jazz guitars (laughter).

GROSS: You know, I put on "Teenager In Love" to see if I could hear you, and I heard what sounded like a banjo.

B PIZZARELLI: (Laughter) Oh, yeah. We've got a...

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

B PIZZARELLI: That's it.

(LAUGHTER)

B PIZZARELLI: But all those dates were - they were more or less faked. One - we would have three or four guitar players, and one would go...

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: (Laughter).

B PIZZARELLI: Another guy would go...

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: (Laughter). Do you miss those days when there was a lot of studio work? 'Cause there - it isn't like that anymore.

B PIZZARELLI: No, I didn't like it because it got - the music - you know, we only played three chords. You know, you do that all year, it'd drive you up the walls.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: That was Bucky Pizzarelli, recorded in front of a studio audience in 1992 at the Museum of Television and Radio in New York. He died Wednesday of the coronavirus at the age of 94. After we take a short break, we'll listen to the interview I recorded with Bucky and his son, guitarist and singer John Pizzarelli, in 2006. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BUCKY PIZZARELLI'S "PART 3")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our remembrance of jazz guitarist Bucky Pizzarelli, who died of the coronavirus Wednesday at the age of 94. His son John Pizzarelli is also a jazz guitarist, as well as a singer, who's performed on our show several times. In 2006, after John recorded an album that also featured his father, they joined us together for an interview we're about to hear. The album was called "Dear Mr. Sinatra." We started with a song from the album, "Can't We Be Friends?"

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS?")

JOHN PIZZARELLI: (Singing) I thought I found the girl of my dreams. Now it seems this is how the story ends. She's going to turn me down and say, can't we be friends? I thought for once it couldn't go wrong - not for long. I can see the way this ends. She's going to turn me down and say, can't we be friends?

GROSS: That's from John Pizzarelli's new CD, "Dear Mr. Sinatra." And we heard John singing and Bucky Pizzarelli, his father, featured on guitar. Welcome, both of you, back to FRESH AIR.

B PIZZARELLI: Thank you.

J PIZZARELLI: Nice to be here.

GROSS: John, on the liner notes of your new CD, you thank your father for the best thump in the business. What do you mean by that?

J PIZZARELLI: Well, the thump you hear throughout the record is just the way he plays rhythm guitar. I think that the sound of his guitar is the heartbeat of the whole band, you know? Jeff Hamilton will tell you, too, how great that sound of that is. As a drummer, to hear that rhythm guitar sound is - it's really thrilling to me, actually. And I just love the sound of it. And a lot of people call it a chunk, but I call it a thump because it's sort of - it's more of a heartbeat to me than it is anything else. So I call it a thump. I love his thump (laughter).

GROSS: But, John, you play rhythm guitar yourself. So why do you prefer, on this album, for instance, to have your father playing rhythm?

J PIZZARELLI: Because he's better than me. So if you have...

B PIZZARELLI: (Laughter).

J PIZZARELLI: ...Somebody who's better than you at rhythm guitar, it's always good, especially if he's related because he'll work for scale.

B PIZZARELLI: (Laughter).

J PIZZARELLI: But in this case, that's really the reason. I mean, he's the best doing what he does. So I always try to hire the best musicians. And I can play rhythm guitar, but not like him.

GROSS: Bucky, when John was a boy, did you think at some point that one day you'd be playing on his records in addition to him playing on yours?

B PIZZARELLI: No. I never thought of that. You know, he had a little band. And every time the band rehearsed in the garage, the cops would show up.

J PIZZARELLI: (Laughter).

B PIZZARELLI: And it was so loud (laughter).

GROSS: Seriously?

B PIZZARELLI: Yeah. I'm not kidding.

J PIZZARELLI: That's true.

GROSS: This must have been rock and not jazz.

B PIZZARELLI: Well, he had so many amplifiers I couldn't park the car.

(LAUGHTER)

J PIZZARELLI: They were all in the garage.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So, John, what were you playing in the garage when the police were coming?

J PIZZARELLI: Oh, I was playing - our band just played songs that we could play that had three or four chords. So we played the Allman Brothers. We played some Eric Clapton and mostly Peter Frampton - I liked him - and the Eagles and James Taylor and Jackson Browne and those kind of bands. And we liked to play outside in the summer. And that's what got us in a lot of trouble, from playing outside. So...

GROSS: So what got you from there back into the kind of jazz that your father had played?

J PIZZARELLI: Well, he never said any of that was bad. He just didn't like the volume. So, you know, that was the thing. We loved music so much. And then he had said in an interview once years ago - and I didn't even realize it - is that I had learned Chick Corea's "Spain" off of a record to play with a bunch of our friends at a talent show. This kid wanted to play it on the trombone, so we all learned it. And he was impressed that I learned this difficult song off the record because that's how I learned songs - rock songs.

That's when the Django Reinhardt lesson came up, you know? I learned "Rose Room" off of a Django Reinhardt record. And then I learned some of the duets that he did with George Barnes off of the record. So I got to do gigs with him. And then I would do my Rock ’n’ roll gigs. He said I was the only jazz musician who played jazz to support his Rock ’n’ roll habit.

(LAUGHTER)

J PIZZARELLI: It was usually the other way around.

GROSS: Bucky, when John was a boy, did you intentionally try to do things to expose him to music and to the music that you particularly loved?

B PIZZARELLI: Well...

GROSS: Obviously, you probably heard a lot of it just in the course of things. But, you know, like, some people will actually, like, make sure that they're playing certain records to their children when their children are around so that...

B PIZZARELLI: No. No.

GROSS: Yeah.

B PIZZARELLI: Well, you know, actually, we had a lot of people come over to the house like Joe Venuti and Zoot Sims. Benny Goodman was over many times. And when they saw these big figures, you know, I think it made a big impression, especially Zoot (laughter).

J PIZZARELLI: Yeah. They were like stars, you know? So that was sort of - that was the thing, too. If you really wanted to speak my father's language, you had to learn his songs, you know? You had to learn "Honeysuckle Rose," "Sweet Georgia Brown" and "Rose Room" because that way, you could get in on the jam session, you know? Otherwise, you were sort of outside the circle.

GROSS: Bucky, were there things you didn't want to expose John to about your musician friends? Did they have any, like, bad habits or crude language that you didn't want to expose your son to?

B PIZZARELLI: No. I mean, they heard that in high school anyway. So - (laughter).

J PIZZARELLI: It was probably worse in high school.

B PIZZARELLI: That's right.

J PIZZARELLI: You know, everybody was gentlemanly around the house. Zoot Sims was one of the greatest guys to hang around. He would like to play Ping-Pong. We'd played Ping-Pong with him. And he was drinking scotch the whole time, but we never thought anything about him drinking scotch, you know, and hanging out all day with us.

B PIZZARELLI: Oh, he'd slam (unintelligible) and Ovaltine every night (laughter).

J PIZZARELLI: Yeah. That was the - everybody was fun (laughter).

GROSS: John, how old were you when you started playing with your father?

J PIZZARELLI: I guess it had to be 16, 17, 18 - somewhere in there is when I first - I would come on at the end of gigs that he would do as solo concerts and play either "Chicken A La Swing" and "Stage Fright" or "Honeysuckle Rose." Those were, like, the three things that I knew.

GROSS: How did you both feel about that? John, how did you feel about playing with your father?

J PIZZARELLI: Oh, I always loved it. That was fun for me to go to the gigs. I loved hearing him play. And whoever he was playing with was fun. So I loved going with him to record dates when I was a little kid. I could sit in a studio all day and listen to him play.

GROSS: And, Bucky, what was it like for you to bring your son onstage? Were you convinced he was really talented at this point? Or did it just feel like...

B PIZZARELLI: Well, he had this...

GROSS: ...OK, I'm going to give my son a little showcase...

J PIZZARELLI: (Laughter).

GROSS: ...Because, you know, a lot of parents just want to show off their children.

B PIZZARELLI: Well, he had the passion. I know...

GROSS: Yeah.

B PIZZARELLI: ...He had the passion to want to play. I knew that. So I didn't want to stop him from doing anything, you know? And then if I brought him up on stage, I knew what he was going to play. So it worked out.

GROSS: Well, John, your new CD is songs associated with Frank Sinatra. But I want to go back to an earlier CD of duets between the two of you. And this is an album called "Contrasts" that was released back in 1998. And I thought we'd play "Stage Fright," which is a composition that was originally recorded as a duet by the guitarists Carl Kress and Dick McDonough. So how did you start working this up together as a duet?

B PIZZARELLI: Well, it was a part of the repertoire in the Pizzarelli family. I learned from my uncles. And they told me, listen to Dick McDonough and Carl Kress. And listen to George Van Eps and Allan Reuss. And...

J PIZZARELLI: And you had the original records of...

B PIZZARELLI: Yeah.

J PIZZARELLI: ...Of Carl and Dick playing "Stage Fright."

B PIZZARELLI: We had, yeah, the old 78s. So we listened to them. And then we found the music somehow. And all of a sudden, we start playing it.

J PIZZARELLI: Yeah. He had, like, a third-generation photocopy of "Stage Fright" and "Chicken A La Swing." And he originally - it is part of the Pizzarelli repertoire. My sister Mary originally played the parts - the second parts that I play on this recording. He would sit down and say, here's what you got to do. And we'd learn - we'd do eight bars at a time. And I'd get hit over the head a couple of times. But by the end (laughter), we'd have it all worked out. But it was - this is really, like, one of the first things that we played together.

GROSS: OK. Well, this is Bucky Pizzarelli and John Pizzarelli, father and son, from a 1998 album called Contrasts.

(SOUNDBITE OF BUCKY PIZZARELLI AND JOHN PIZZARELLI'S "STAGE FRIGHT")

GROSS: How would you each describe your guitar styles? How would you compare them? Bucky, how would you compare your style and John's?

B PIZZARELLI: Well...

J PIZZARELLI: (Laughter).

B PIZZARELLI: ...I started back in the '30s, when I was taking lessons from my uncles, Peter and Bobby Domenick. And Bobby was on the road with a lot of dance bands - Clyde McCoy, Buddy Rogers, Frank Daly (ph). Every time he came off the road, you know, during the Depression, he had a little Dodge, he had a gabardine suit on (laughter) and a big, beautiful Gibson guitar. And boy, my eyes opened up. And the next thing, he'd show me a few chords that nobody in Paterson ever saw (laughter).

So that's what got me started. I just followed his career. And I said, when I get older, I'd like to do the same thing. And luckily, when I was 17, I got out of high school, and I went with Vaughn Monroe's band, only to be drafted then about four months later. But I did get a taste of it when I was a kid.

J PIZZARELLI: So you're a product of the big bands.

B PIZZARELLI: Oh, yeah. And, I mean, everything was a big-band setting for me.

GROSS: John, how would you compare your style to your father's?

J PIZZARELLI: Well, I think he was - like he said, he's sort of more of a product of guys all playing together and learning from my - his uncles. I learned more off of records and then from playing with my father. We had the seven-string guitars with the low A. It's a regular guitar with a low A on it that George Van Eps had invented. And we got the guitars and learned that. And we could accompany each other because we had the bass notes.

And I think that my guitar style is a little - it's a little - you can - it's just a little more - it's a little coarser. It's a little - got a little more point to it. I think he's more of a chord melody, and there's more of a real sensitive style to the way he plays.

You know, it's funny, though, is that I had - he came to a gig that we did once, and he played my guitar. I called him up to play my guitar and play a couple of solos on it. And when he played my guitar, which is a different brand and, you know, just different everything - and he played my guitar, and he sounded like him on his guitar. So I was like, well, that's obviously not the guitar.

(LAUGHTER)

J PIZZARELLI: It's something inside his hands that's where his sound comes from. So there's something about his style that captures every guitar player who listens to him.

GROSS: Bucky and John Pizzarelli, recorded in 2006. Bucky Pizzarelli died of the coronavirus Wednesday at the age of 94. We send our sympathies to John and the rest of Bucky's family and friends.

After we take a short break, we remember two other people from the music world who died of COVID-19 this week - pianist and educator Ellis Marsalis, the patriarch of the music family that includes Wynton and Branford Marsalis; and Adam Schlesinger, who co-founded the band Fountains of Wayne, wrote songs for the movies "That Thing You Do!" and "Music And Lyrics" and for the TV show "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend." I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BUCKY AND JOHN PIZZARELLI'S "THREE LITTLE WORDS")

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to continue our remembrance of some musicians we lost this week to COVID-19. Adam Schlesinger was 52 when he died Wednesday. As Stephen Thompson of NPR Music wrote, Schlesinger's work spread joy and kindhearted humor. He co-founded the band Fountains of Wayne, was nominated for an Oscar for writing the title song for Tom Hanks' film "That Thing You Do!," wrote songs for the Drew Barrymore-Hugh Grant rom-com "Music And Lyrics" and won three Emmys for his songs for the TV series "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend."

He also co-wrote a song that I think is one of the best Tony Award ceremony moments ever. It was in 2011, when Neil Patrick Harris hosted. Here's Harris performing that song. It's a tribute to Broadway called "It's Not Just For Gays Anymore."

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "65TH TONY AWARDS")

NEIL PATRICK HARRIS: (Singing) If you feel like someone that this world excludes, it's no longer only for dudes who like dudes. Attention every breeder, you're invited to the theater. It's not just for gays anymore. The glamour of Broadway is beckoning straights, the people who marry in all 50 states. We're asking every hetero to get to know us better-o (ph). It's not just for gays anymore. It's for fine, upstanding Christians who know all the songs from "Grease." It's for sober-minded businessmen who yearn for some release.

So put down your Playboy and go make a plan to pick up a playbill and feel like a man. There's so much to discover with your different-gendered lover. It's not just for gays, the gays and the Jews, and cousins in from out of town you have to amuse and the sad, embittered malcontents who write the reviews and also foreign tourists and the groups of senior citizens and well-to-do suburbanites and liberal intellectuals - though that group is really only Jews and homosexuals. I've lost my train of thought. Oh, yes, it's not just for gays anymore.

(CHEERING)

GROSS: That was Neil Patrick Harris hosting the Tonys in 2011, singing a song co-written by Adam Schlesinger and D.J. Javerbaum, a former head writer for "The Daily Show With Jon Stewart."

In 1999, I spoke with Schlesinger and his partner in the band Fountains of Wayne, Chris Collingwood. We started with the title track of the album they just released, "Utopia Parkway."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "UTOPIA PARKWAY")

FOUNTAINS OF WAYNE: (Singing) Well, I've been saving for a custom van, and I've been playing in a cover band. And my baby doesn't understand why I never turned from boy to man. I got it made. I got it down. I am the king of this island town. I'm on my own. I'm on my way down Utopia - Utopia - Utopia Parkway.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: Chris Collingwood, Adam Schlesinger, welcome to FRESH AIR.

ADAM SCHLESINGER: Thanks for having us.

GROSS: What's the story behind this song?

SCHLESINGER: The song is about a guy who's playing in a cover band, and he's sort of a little bit too old to be playing in a rock band but can't quite give up the dream of it. And it was kind of making fun of myself, you know, the absurdity of what we do, in a way. But, you know, he's just - he's talking about the idea that he's going to take over the town. He's going to make it into New York and conquer the big city.

GROSS: Before you guys actually succeeded as a band, did you think that you were going to be in this perpetual state of adolescence and never quite making it as a band but being stuck in that place?

SCHLESINGER: You know, it's so hard to say, did you ever think that you'd be stuck in perpetual adolescence? (Laughter). It's like, being in a rock band, it's almost something we can't help, you know? You try to be an adult about it, but it is sort of a ridiculous thing to be doing. And I think we actually write about a lot of adolescent and sort of teenage scenarios and things, but for us, it's almost more because it's what's traditionally done with the form, and we're really interested in, you know, the form of pop songs. And I'd rather write about a high school prom or something than write about a midlife crisis, you know?

CHRIS COLLINGWOOD: Paying my taxes.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHLESINGER: Yeah, exactly. (Singing) Well, it's tax time again.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHLESINGER: (Singing) It's that time of year.

Right?

GROSS: That song is from your new CD, and I'm wondering if you think that you've headed in a new direction on the new CD from the first one.

SCHLESINGER: For us, it's not really a new direction; it's actually more of an old direction because we played in a series of bands together before we even started Fountains of Wayne. I mean, we've been playing together in one form or another since we were 18. And the stuff that we did originally was more kind of - I don't know how to describe it - I mean, less rock and more pop, maybe, you know? And I think that's where this record has gone. So in a weird way, it feels like kind of back to our roots.

I mean, when we made our first album, we went into a studio with a Marshall amplifier and just made a lot of noise. And we had never really recorded anything like that before. So to us, you know, it was like this big rock extravaganza, although it probably doesn't sound like that to your average teenager; it probably sounds like a wimpy pop band. But on this record, we wanted to have, you know, different kinds of textures on the record - some subtler stuff, some slightly more introspective stuff mixed in with the kind of jokey, fun, loud stuff.

GROSS: Well, don't sell that first album short. I really like it. And...

SCHLESINGER: Oh, I don't mean it that way. I mean, you know, the first album was just - it was written in about a week. It was recorded in about another week. And it was just this kind of blast of energy. And I think it's great. I think it's a - you know, it's the perfect way to approach a first record, just have a good time and, you know, create this kind of blueprint for yourself. But we wanted to try to expand on that a little bit and not just do the same thing again.

GROSS: When that record came out, when your first record came out, rock critic Robert Christgau said that he thinks you sing the kind of words every shy guy who didn't get the girl thinks of.

SCHLESINGER: (Laughter).

GROSS: And I think a good illustration of that point is the song "Leave The Biker," which is a really catchy song. Why don't we play that?

SCHLESINGER: All right.

GROSS: This is "Leave The Biker" from the first Fountains of Wayne CD.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LEAVE THE BIKER")

FOUNTAINS OF WAYNE: (Singing) Seems the further from town I go, the more I hate this place. He's got leather and big tattoos, scars all over his face. And I wonder if ever has cried 'cause he couldn't get a date for the prom. He's got his arm around every man's dream. The crumbs in his beard from the seafood special. Oh, can't you see my world is falling apart? Baby, please, leave the biker - leave the biker. Break his heart. Baby, please, leave the biker - leave the biker. Break his heart.

GROSS: That's from the first Fountains of Wayne CD. Do you think Robert Christgau was onto something? Do you think of yourselves as former shy guys who didn't get the girl?

COLLINGWOOD: (Laughter) I think there's a lot made out of that, actually. And it's funny because...

GROSS: Too much, you mean?

COLLINGWOOD: Well, I think that if people are really eager to call you geek rock or whatever, it sort of lumps you into this convenient category which ignores the subtler aspects of some of the songwriting, which...

SCHLESINGER: Not that that's the most subtle song that we've ever put out, but - (laughter).

COLLINGWOOD: Right. And - you know, I mean, to some degree, it might have been a mistake to put that song on the record because I'd hate to sort of go down in history as this joke songwriter.

GROSS: Oh, but it's catchy. I don't think - I think it's a good song.

SCHLESINGER: No, it is. And, I mean, I think the thing is that, you know, obviously, that song's supposed to be fun. And a lot of them are. But at the same time, you know, people, especially in America - I think more so even than in Europe - assume that any voice that you have in a song is you confessing, you know, your inner thoughts. And the idea of writing from, like, the perspective of a character or something is a little bit confusing to people.

So a lot of times, there's songs written that are not literally supposed to be us speaking our minds. And that sometimes gets missed.

GROSS: Well, there's nice lines in the song, like the line about the guy having crumbs in his beard from the seafood special.

COLLINGWOOD: (Laughter).

SCHLESINGER: I think the main thing with that whole sort of geeky sort of tag or whatever is that neither of us would be comfortable writing a song that had a really kind of macho, aggressive pose to it. It definitely does come more naturally to us to write from, like, a weaker perspective. And just - maybe it's just because it makes the song more sympathetic or something.

GROSS: Well, there's that line - I wonder if he's ever cried because he couldn't get a date for the prom. And then there's a prom song on your new CD also that I think is kind of mocking that stereotyped emotion you're supposed to have on the prom. Like, this is the crowning moment of my life, and after this, I'm going to, like, have a receding hairline and...

SCHLESINGER: (Laughter) Right.

GROSS: ...You know, just work all the time, and life will be over. It's, like, the oldest cliche in the book about how you're supposed to feel on prom night.

SCHLESINGER: Yeah. I actually went to two high school proms. I went to my own, and then I went to the prom at the high school my girlfriend at the time went out on Long Island. And they were both pretty much identical, these kind of suburban proms. And even though I was only - whatever - 17 at the time, I was already too cynical to enjoy it, so I kind of ruined it for both of us.

GROSS: (Laughter).

SCHLESINGER: And she never really forgave me, you know? I think that was the beginning of the end of our relationship.

GROSS: We're remembering Adam Schlesinger, who died Wednesday of COVID-19. We're listening to the 1999 interview I recorded with Schlesinger and Chris Collingwood, with whom Schlesinger co-founded the band Fountains of Wayne. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF FOUNTAINS OF WAYNE SONG, "A ROAD SONG")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Adam Schlesinger, who died Wednesday of the coronavirus. Let's get back to my 1999 interview with him and Chris Collingwood. They co-founded the band Fountains of Wayne.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: How did you first meet? You've been playing together a long time.

COLLINGWOOD: Yeah. We met in college. We were both, I think, about 19 at the time. And we've sort of been playing steadily in bands ever since then. We had about 10 different bands throughout - since about 19 - or actually 1987...

SCHLESINGER: Six or seven, yeah.

COLLINGWOOD: ...To the present, most of which were incredibly terrible, and they all had really horrible names. And we actually...

GROSS: Such as? Such as?

SCHLESINGER: We used to change our name, you know, once a week.

COLLINGWOOD: Because people who saw us once, like...

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINGWOOD: If we advertised with the same name, they'd never come back. We were called Woolly Mammoth...

SCHLESINGER: That was about a...

COLLINGWOOD: ...Three People who when Standing Side by Side Have a Wingspan of Over 12 Feet...

GROSS: (Laughter).

SCHLESINGER: Are You My Mother.

COLLINGWOOD: ...Are You My Mother.

GROSS: (Laughter) Why did you call the band that?

SCHLESINGER: That's a children's book, actually.

COLLINGWOOD: Oh, yeah - Green Light Go is another children's book.

SCHLESINGER: The silly thing is that Fountains of Wayne was just one of these - you know, in the pile of names that we would just kind of rotate, and that ended up being the one that we got stuck with. But I kind of prefer Are You My Mother, actually. Maybe we should switch it.

GROSS: Well, how did you come up with Fountains of Wayne? And why is that the name that stuck?

SCHLESINGER: Fountains of Wayne is a store in the town called Wayne, N.J., which is near where I grew up. And I think it was something that my mother actually suggested at some point. She works in Clifton.

COLLINGWOOD: (Unintelligible) about 10 years ago.

SCHLESINGER: Yeah. While we were probably...

COLLINGWOOD: While we were tossing around all these bad band names.

SCHLESINGER: And she was always full of, you know, really horrible ideas for, you know, things we should do to help the band out. So she would suggest these terrible names. And we'd say, oh, God. That's a horrible band name. And she would also say things like, you know, why don't you guys play shows where you have two pianos on stage, and you can both play piano, and that'll be your gimmick?

GROSS: (Laughter).

SCHLESINGER: And you - I'd just say, you know, I really don't have time to explain why that's a bad idea right now. But some at some point, I will.

COLLINGWOOD: My family was always saying, you know, why don't you go on that "David Letterman Show?" That seems to do those bands a lot of good.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Was she offering to get you on?

COLLINGWOOD: OK, I'll just call him up.

GROSS: Yeah.

SCHLESINGER: (Laughter).

COLLINGWOOD: No, she's just - you know, that was her idea for promotion.

GROSS: Your knowledge of rock and pop goes back a long way. And I'm wondering, what - do you remember the first records you each bought?

COLLINGWOOD: I think the first full-length LP I was ever allowed to buy was "Bat Out Of Hell" by Meat Loaf.

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINGWOOD: My parents obviously had all those Beatles records sitting around and stuff. But I remember I think I was in sixth grade when "Bat Out Of Hell" came out. It was that record...

SCHLESINGER: You were, like, woah.

COLLINGWOOD: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINGWOOD: It had a really cool motorcycle on the cover. It was just so excellent.

SCHLESINGER: The first record I ever bought was this exercise record that they made us buy in first grade. It was called "Chicken Fat."

GROSS: Oh, you - oh, God. We had to...

SCHLESINGER: Do you know that record?

GROSS: ...Listen to that, too. Yeah.

SCHLESINGER: It was like, (singing) pushups every morning...

GROSS: Ten times.

SCHLESINGER: ...Not just now and then - 10 times.

GROSS: One, two.

SCHLESINGER: And they make you exercise to it. And then they'd also make you buy it.

GROSS: Oh, give that chicken right back - give that chicken fat back to the chicken, and don't be chicken again.

SCHLESINGER: I can't believe - you're the only person I've ever mentioned this to that knows what the hell I'm talking about.

COLLINGWOOD: I want to know what kind of fascist elementary schools you two went to.

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINGWOOD: Chicken fight.

SCHLESINGER: "Chicken Fat."

GROSS: No, "Chicken Fat."

COLLINGWOOD: "Chicken Fat."

GROSS: It was this really funny...

COLLINGWOOD: Kill all the weak students. The strong students will survive.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHLESINGER: Kill the weak.

GROSS: It was this military-style workout record, yeah.

SCHLESINGER: Oh, man.

COLLINGWOOD: That's just horrible.

GROSS: So you really liked it? This is an influence on your music?

SCHLESINGER: Oh, I never said I liked it.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Tell me again why you brought it up.

SCHLESINGER: You asked us the first record we ever bought.

GROSS: Oh, and they made you buy it.

SCHLESINGER: Oh, yeah.

GROSS: They made you buy it.

SCHLESINGER: It was forced purchase.

GROSS: That's right.

SCHLESINGER: I should suggest to our record company that strategy of forcing first-graders to buy our album.

GROSS: (Laughter).

SCHLESINGER: Because there's a lot of first-graders out there, you know, and they've all got lunch money.

GROSS: That's a good idea.

COLLINGWOOD: We could just go rob them instead of making them buy the record.

SCHLESINGER: (Laughter) Yeah. Why bring this whole record thing into it?

GROSS: Adam, I have a question for you. You wrote that song "That Thing You Do" for the Tom Hanks movie.

SCHLESINGER: I did.

GROSS: (Laughter) And I thought that was a surprisingly good movie that had a really kind of knowing and loving sense of '60s pop.

SCHLESINGER: (Laughter).

GROSS: What - how did you come to write the song? Was there, like, a national audition being held for the song or...

SCHLESINGER: Not really. I mean, it was just - somebody in the music business that I work with at a music publishing company heard about the movie and said that, you know, they were looking for a song that kind of sounded like this era and asked me if I wanted to take a stab at it. So I did a demo recording of it with two friends, and we just sent it in. And, you know, we did it really quickly because we just kind of assumed it was such a long shot it wasn't worth spending that much time on. But, you know, they actually listened to it, and they actually liked it. So it was a lucky break.

GROSS: Yeah. And the movie's about a band that's a one-hit wonder, and the only hit that they have is this song, "That Thing You Do," and it's a really catchy record. What did you think about when you wrote this song, knowing that it needed to be a period song?

SCHLESINGER: Well, the obvious reference for the time period they were talking about was The Beatles, but they actually had - as part of the instructions for it, it said that, you know, we'd rather sound - have it sound like an American band that's, you know, kind of a cheap imitation of The Beatles, you know, 'cause there were a lot of bands sprouting up then.

COLLINGWOOD: The Knickerbockers.

SCHLESINGER: Yeah, that kind of stuff, you know, trying to capitalize on what The Beatles had done. So that's what I was going for.

GROSS: Adam Schlesinger and Chris Collingwood founded the band Fountains of Wayne. Our interview was recorded in 1999. Schlesinger died Wednesday of COVID-19. He was 52. Our sympathies to his family and everyone who was close to him. Here's "That Thing You Do." I love this song.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THAT THING YOU DO")

MIKE VIOLA: (Singing) You doing that thing you do, breaking my heart into a million pieces, like you always do. And you don't mean to be cruel. You never even knew about the heartache I've been going through. Well, I try and try to forget you girl, but it's just so hard to do every time you do that thing you do. I'm...

GROSS: After a break, we'll remember musician and educator Ellis Marsalis and hear a couple of the things his sons Wynton and Branford said about him on our show. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ELLIS MARSALIS' "CHAPTER ONE")

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: We end today's show of remembrances by listening to what Wynton and Branford Marsalis had to say on our show about their father, pianist and educator Ellis Marsalis, who died of COVID-19 on Wednesday. He was 85. Ellis was the patriarch of one of New Orleans' most famous jazz families that also included his sons Delfeayo and Jason. In 2011, the National Endowment for the Arts named Ellis Marsalis and his four musician sons jazz masters. That was the first time the highest honor for an American jazz musician was actually given to a group. Here's an excerpt of my 2002 interview with Branford Marsalis, in which he spoke about his father.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: You grew up in what is now America's, probably, most famous jazz family, The Marsalis Family. Your father Ellis Marsalis is a pianist. When you were growing up, liking the pop music that you liked, did you feel about his music the way, say, I felt about my father's old Benny Goodman records?

BRANFORD MARSALIS: I felt about my father's music the way that my next-door neighbor felt about his father, the chauffeur driver - that was just what he did. How did you feel about your father's Benny Goodman records? (Laughter).

GROSS: Oh, yeah. I guess I didn't - I really disliked them until I got much older. Well, in my 20s, anyways.

B MARSALIS: Jazz is not for kids. And I know that's - there's an argument. My brother says jazz can be for kids. I don't think - jazz has a level of sophistication that's just way too hip for kids. It's not a music for kids. And it certainly wasn't a music for me. But it wasn't like he'd play them and I'd go, argh (ph). I would just leave the room...

GROSS: You just didn't care.

B MARSALIS: ...And turn on the television in the other room until it was my turn to listen to my music. And then I'd put on Cheech and Chong...

GROSS: (Laughter).

B MARSALIS: ...And Elton John and, you know, James Brown, whatever I wanted to put on. And my father would stay out. And then when James Brown came on, he'd come in and say, yeah, kid, yeah, Jack, I like that.

GROSS: (Laughter).

B MARSALIS: And then he would always dance to it. When he danced to it, he would snap his fingers on two and four, which was the funniest thing in the world, you know?

GROSS: (Laughter) That's great. Yeah. Yeah.

B MARSALIS: "Cold Sweat's" going on, you know? (Singing) Like a cold sweat (vocalizing).

My father's going, yeah (vocalizing). I'm like, no, Dad. It's just funny.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: It's on the one.

B MARSALIS: Oh, yeah. It was just classic.

GROSS: That was Branford Marsalis talking about his father Ellis. Here's what Wynton Marsalis had to say about Ellis Marsalis on our show in 1994.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: You know, your father Ellis Marsalis, the pianist, he played mostly in New Orleans. Was that by choice or by necessity?

WYNTON MARSALIS: I think it was mainly by necessity. It was hard for him - it's hard to get gigs, first, playing jazz music. And he was struggling in New Orleans. So I'm sure if he had the choice, he wouldn't have chosen to stay in the city with five or six children and try to make it, you know, eking out a living as a local jazz musician. That was hard for him.

GROSS: So he would've preferred to be on the road.

W MARSALIS: Just any way to play and make more money than he was making, to support his family more. I'm sure he would have preferred that.

GROSS: Did that discourage you from becoming a jazz musician?

W MARSALIS: No, because, you know, my daddy loved the music. And I remember asking him once when he, like, was down to his last gig and he was contemplating driving a cab or getting some type of day job whether he regretted playing jazz because nobody really liked to hear that kind of music. And he said, no, and he was very emphatic about how much he loved the music and it had defined a lot of his adulthood and put things in focus for him. And, you know, then I was like 13 or 14, so I really - the philosophical implications of what he was saying, I didn't really care too much about that. I just wanted to know if it was yes or no.

And he was fortunate in that my mother always supported him as a musician. And she would complain about the fact that we didn't have money, but she always wanted him to play music. She didn't - she was never pushing him to get a day job or say, well, you know, you shouldn't have played this music. She was always behind him as a musician.

GROSS: It's probably going to be hard for a lot of people to understand how a pianist or any jazz music musician can go without working in New Orleans, but I guess a lot of the New Orleans music that paid was a traditional, tourist-oriented jazz.

W MARSALIS: Right. My father was...

GROSS: Dixieland.

W MARSALIS: We just called it New Orleans music. You know, New Orleans musicians hate to be called Dixieland musicians.

GROSS: No, no. But I mean the commercialization of New Orleans music...

W MARSALIS: Right.

GROSS: ...That's probably what there were more jobs for.

W MARSALIS: Yeah. And he - my father played a traditional job for a while with the Storyville Jazz Band. They played in a club called Crazy Shirley's. But then when that gig ended - he really was a modern jazz musician. So, you know, he had a very, very hard time trying to play, like, music that came out of - not bebop, but whatever - they didn't - never really invented a term for the style that they were playing. But this post-bebop type of music, it just wasn't - the audience wasn't there for that.

GROSS: Wynton Marsalis talking about his father, pianist and educator Ellis Marsalis, on our show in 1994. Ellis Marsalis died of the coronavirus Wednesday. He was 85. Our sympathies to his family. And we send our best wishes for recovery to everyone who is sick and to their loved ones and sympathies to those who have lost loved ones.

(SOUNDBITE OF ELLIS MARSALIS' "COME SUNDAY")

GROSS: Monday on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Kerry Washington, who's starring with Reese Witherspoon in "Little Fires Everywhere," which is streaming on Hulu and is one of the new streaming series many people isolating at home are watching. Washington also starred in the hit ABC series "Scandal" as a political fixer. She served on President Obama's council on the arts and humanities. We'll talk about the new series, her life and how her life has changed in the COVID era. I hope you'll join us.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham, who is our engineer this week along with Adam Staniszewski. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF ELLIS MARSALIS' "COME SUNDAY")