'Beanpole' Captures The Devastation That Lingers, Even After War Has Ended

DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "JOKER")

JOAQUIN PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck) Is it just me, or is it getting crazier out there?

DAVIES: The city is going crazy, and the main character is increasingly unhinged in the movie "Joker," which won two Golden Globe Awards and is nominated for 11 Academy Awards, including best film, best director and best adapted screenplay. Joaquin Phoenix is nominated for best actor for his performance in the starring role. "Joker" was produced, directed and co-written by our guest Todd Phillips, who also directed the "Hangover" films.

"Joker" is an origin story of sorts for the villain in the "Batman" comics and movies. It's set in Gotham City in 1981, which looks very much like Manhattan in 1981, but the movie isn't a comic book story. The main character, Arthur Fleck, played by Joaquin Phoenix, is a man with a history of serious mental health problems. An aspiring comic who works as a clown at parties, he's attacked by three men on the subway while he's wearing a costume and makeup. He's carrying a fellow clown's gun, and he shoots and kills his three attackers. The incident makes Fleck a folk hero in the crime-ridden city, and people start wearing clown masks in tribute to him. Meanwhile, social service cuts have left him without public assistance, and he's forced off his medications. The deterioration of the city and Arthur's mental health feed off each other in a disastrous way.

Terry spoke to Todd Phillips in January.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Todd Phillips, welcome back to FRESH AIR. "Joker" has really divided audiences and critics, but it's done fantastically at the box office. I'm one of the people who thinks this is a terrific film and a very serious film. You've said that you made the character Joker in order to make a serious movie that's kind of about a comic book character so you could get a big budget. It was, you said, a way to sneak a real movie into the studio system under the guise of a comic book film. Tell us more about that.

TODD PHILLIPS: I was starting to think that films that I grew up on, grew up loving, that - how hard it is to get those movies made nowadays. And I started looking around at the state of the movie business, about what people are showing up to. Clearly, you know, superhero films have taken over. So it really started as an experiment, so to speak, as like, well, you know, maybe you could get one of those kind of deep-dive character study movies done nowadays in the studio system if you, I guess, disguise it as a comic book film - not that it was a trick we were playing. It was just something of - boy, you know, you could do a character study if it was about one of those characters.

GROSS: Let's talk about your vision of Joker, the character of Arthur. He initially paints his face like a clown because he's employed by an agency that basically rents out clowns...

PHILLIPS: Right.

GROSS: ...Like, for your child's party or for, like...

PHILLIPS: Yeah.

GROSS: ...The hospital children's ward. But for reasons I won't explain - I don't want to give away too much stuff - you know, he loses his job, but he continues, sometimes, to paint his face. And he has serious mental health problems. There's a history of mental health problems in his family, and he's soon off his meds because he can no longer afford them, and the city can no longer help him because they're shutting down social services. And his mental health deteriorates as the movie goes on. Why did you want this Joker to have a mental health disorder? And...

PHILLIPS: Well...

GROSS: ...Is it a specific disorder that you've given him?

PHILLIPS: Well, it wasn't that we wanted him to necessarily have a mental health disorder. What really we wanted to do and what really the whole MO of the film was - let's make a comic book film where we run everything through as realistic a lens as possible. So why does Joker have a white face and green hair? Well, in the comic books, he fell into a vat of acid. That didn't feel very real to us. If you fell into a vat of acid, I don't know that your skin would turn white and your hair would be green. So we came up - we sort of backwards-engineered everything. The mental illness was also a thing of going - well, a little bit like, where does his laugh come from? And if you see the movie, you realize he has a condition. Joker - you know, the Joker character in the comic book world is famous for the green hair, the white face, the laugh. So we really just wanted to give everything real-world reasons.

GROSS: So the deteriorating mental health gives...

PHILLIPS: Well, that was - OK. So, you know, that's a different question. Two parts - the first thing is we didn't ever really discuss specifically with Joaquin - when I say we, again, me and Joaquin didn't really discuss what we didn't want to put a specific label on what his mental illness is outside of his affliction that gives him the laugh, which is something that's called - caused from head trauma early on in life, which is a real thing. You know, nowadays it's called PBA, pseudobulbar affect. But back then, I don't know that they even had that name for it. But it's a real condition. So we thought, once we found that condition, you know, OK, that answers that.

As far as the mental health thing, you know, we really wanted to make a movie that says something - a statement, if you will, on these modern times. Yes, it takes place in 1981 in a fictional city of Gotham, but we wrote it in 2017 in New York City. And oftentimes, you know, movies are mirrors, and they reflect what's going on whenever they take place. And that was something Scott and I really - was important to us, that we are addressing things that we feel or felt were going on in the world in 2016 and '17, as we were writing it.

You know, we all know the big changes in this country that were happening then. Like, I can tell you when Obama was president, we wrote three "Hangover" movies (laughter). When everything changed, suddenly, things felt darker, you know? Anyway, so the mental illness to us was a lot about, you know, what you hear about when social services get cut. What happens to these people? We really thought it was important to shine a light on the system. You know, I think, like a lot of people, the system's broken. And why not use a film to make a comment on that?

GROSS: You've said that there are a lot of films and filmmakers who were influential on you in the making of "Joker." But I think the one that really stands out the most is Scorsese in terms of, in part, how the film looks. You know, you've got De Niro in the movie, and he was in "Taxi Driver" and "King Of Comedy." There are some shots and some things that are so reminiscent of shots in "Taxi Driver." And even there's two times - like, at the end of "Taxi Driver," Travis Bickle puts his finger to his forehead as if the finger is a gun. And then with his thumb, he kind of pulls the trigger of this, you know, imaginary gun.

So another, like, Scorsese reference is the fact that there's a late-night "Tonight Show" kind of variety show that's Arthur's mother's favorite show. And Arthur's grown up watching it, and he loves it, too. They watch it every night together. And in "King Of Comedy," Scorsese's film, De Niro is the obsessive fan of the late-night show, which in that movie is hosted by someone played by Jerry Lewis.

PHILLIPS: Yeah.

GROSS: And De Niro kidnaps the Jerry Lewis character.

PHILLIPS: Yeah.

GROSS: And De Niro's goal is to, like, be on that show himself. And in "Joker," the Joker character gets on that late-night show that De Niro hosts for very misguided reasons on the host's part. So I just wanted to play a short clip. And this is, you know - so, you know, Arthur, the Joaquin Phoenix character, the Joker character, shows up after he's invited on the show. And he's wearing, you know, Joker makeup and clothes.

PHILLIPS: His full look.

GROSS: The full look. And the producer of the show, the Fred de Cordova type...

PHILLIPS: Yes.

GROSS: ...Played by Marc Maron, is, like, horrified. And the Johnny Carson type played by De Niro is kind of like, oh, no. We can make this work. This could be fun. The audience will enjoy it. I think there's one more thing we need to set up, and, Todd, I'm going to let you do it and give away as much as you want to about why they're suspicious of him dressed as a clown.

PHILLIPS: Well, basically, that day, there happened to be a big protest planned at City Hall, so there's a lot of people dressed up as clowns in this Joker look, which was, of course, inspired by him early on - this description given of him from those initial subway killings. So you'll hear them reference - you'll hear Marc Maron reference the sort of protests that are going on in the city and how somebody actually that day - not by Arthur, but was killed, actually, by a policeman in a confrontation.

GROSS: So here's that scene between the host, De Niro, whose name is Murray, the producer played by Marc Maron and Joaquin Phoenix as Arthur, Joker.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "JOKER")

ROBERT DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) What's with the face? I mean, are you part of the protests?

PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck) No, no. I don't believe in any of that. I don't believe in anything. I just thought it'd be good for my act.

MARC MARON: (As Gene Ufland) For your act? Didn't you hear what happened on the subway? Some clown got killed.

DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) He's aware of that. He's aware of that. Yeah.

PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck) No, I hadn't heard.

DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) Yeah.

MARON: (As Gene Ufland) You see; this is what I'm telling you. The audience is going to go crazy if you put this guy on - maybe for a bit, but not a whole segment.

DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) Gene, it's going to work. It's going to work. We're going to go with it.

PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck, laughter) Thank you, Murray.

DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) A couple of rules, though - no cursing, no off-color material. We do a clean show, OK? You go on right after Dr. Sally.

PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck) I love Dr. Sally.

DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) Good, good, good. Well, someone will come and get you, OK?

PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck) OK.

DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) Perfect. Good luck.

PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck) Thanks, Murray.

DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) Yeah.

PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck) Murray, one small thing.

DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) Yeah.

PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck) When you bring me out, can you introduce me as Joker?

MARON: (As Gene Ufland) What's wrong with your real name?

PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck) That's what you called me on the show - a joker. Do you remember?

DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) Did I?

MARON: (As Gene Ufland) I don't know.

DE NIRO: (As Murray Franklin) Well, if you say so, kid, you know, Joker it is. It's good.

PHOENIX: (As Arthur Fleck) Thanks, Murray.

GROSS: OK, so that's a scene from "Joker." My guest is the director and co-writer, Todd Phillips. What was it like to direct both De Niro and Phoenix - Joaquin Phoenix together? Were they both able to arrive at the place they needed to be in terms of getting the character in the same way at the same time? You know, like, some actors like to take a lot of takes. Some actors go to extremes to get in roles. Both Phoenix and De Niro have either lost or gained a lot of weight...

PHILLIPS: Yeah.

GROSS: ...For roles. I mean, they...

PHILLIPS: Right.

GROSS: ...Both get very deep into the characters they're playing, but did they sync up?

PHILLIPS: Yeah, I mean, as much as you want Murray and Arthur to sync up. I mean, they didn't really have to be in sync. That scene is one giant cringe, really...

GROSS: (Laughter) Yeah.

PHILLIPS: ...Where you're just like - and so that - you don't necessarily want them to be in lockstep with each other. But yeah, it was amazing to witness somebody like De Niro's approach as opposed to somebody like Joaquin's approach just in general. But again, I've seen that before with actors, just not with Robert De Niro, which was just mind-blowing to me.

GROSS: Could you describe anything about those approaches without violating their confidence?

PHILLIPS: I mean, you know, Joaquin has a lot of questions and really likes to go really deep on stuff. I jokingly have said this about Joaquin to his face, so I could say it now. I say, Joaquin is the tunnel at the end of the light.

GROSS: (Laughter).

PHILLIPS: Just when you think, you know, you've cracked it, there's a whole 'nother (ph) layer to kind of peel back. And De Niro, at least - again, I can only speak with my experience on this movie with these two characters - much more matter-of-fact about it, kind of gets it on the first bounce, understands who Murray is, you know, and where Murray comes from. And - OK, he's been on the air for 30 years. It's just two different approaches. But again, I just want to preface that by saying - or say that I think that's how Joaquin is on this movie. I don't know that he's like that on every movie. It's what he needed for this character.

GROSS: I think we should take a short break here, and then there's...

PHILLIPS: Great.

GROSS: ...Plenty more to talk about.

PHILLIPS: OK.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Phillips, director of "Joker" and, of course, of the "Hangover" movies. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE UNICORNS SONG, "TUFF GHOST")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Phillips, director of "Joker." He also directed the "Hangover" movies.

You create some real mayhem in "Joker." And again, without giving away too much - but I know a lot of our listeners have already seen it - Joker has become an - he's taken some vigilante action early in the film and become something of, like, a hero to a lot of people who are feeling, like, angry and resentful and disenfranchised and out of work. And, you know - and they just kind of have a demonstration and erupt, and there's a lot of mayhem. Can you talk a little bit about creating that, creating both the story part of that and then actually literally creating it on set?

PHILLIPS: The movie was primarily shot in New York - in and around New York City - the Bronx, Brooklyn, areas that have yet to be totally gentrified, although I'm sure it's coming. Where we shot the mayhem that you're talking about at the end, the very end, was Newark, N.J., on a street called Market Street. There's, like, a great five-block stretch in Newark where we were able to take over. And Mark Friedberg, our production designer - we were really able to build out what the city would have looked like in, let's say again, 1981 and bring in 500 extras and dress them in clown masks and makeup and others in different things and just, you know, almost approach it like a war movie. OK, people over here, this is the crew that's going to break windows. And this crew over here is going to have fire. And this - you know, and you kind of, with the stunt coordinators and with your AD department, your assistant directors - we just created this mayhem.

I mean, it's fun to do. We shot nights in Newark - probably three nights, freezing nights, over the course of that. It's definitely a fun thing to create, but it's also scary because you have 500 people going crazy. And you want everybody to be safe, and there's fire around and cars flipping and, you know, things happening. But it's an electric feeling to shoot it. I imagine it's almost like shooting a war movie or something.

GROSS: So before I'd seen "Joker" - which, again, I want to mention, I liked a lot, just to be clear on the direction from which my questions are coming - I'd already heard reports about, like, is it too violent? Will it cause violence? And so the trailers I saw before "Joker" were trailers, like, for movies with - like, action movies with a lot of CGI. So I remember, like, one scene where somebody's basically run over by, like - it's either a tank or some kind of, like, large, futuristic iron vehicle. And after being run over, he gets up and starts running away, and I thought, like, this is absurd. Like, there are so many movies like this in movie theaters now, where people just can take any kind of violence and still survive, and it's so unrealistic that - why would a realistic depiction of the consequences of violence be the movie that presents the problem?

PHILLIPS: I know. It shocked us as well. And, you know, when we came out in the summer after, you know, another "Rambo" movie or "John Wick" film - and, again, I think these films can exist, should exist. People - there's an audience for them. But you talk about celebrating violence, and "Joker" is - what "Joker" was guilty of is presenting real-world implications to that violence. And to us - and maybe this was shortsighted - that felt like such a more responsible way of dealing with violence. I think in the end of the movie - by the end of the movie - seven people die in our film, all people that did him wrong. Nobody random dies. He doesn't shoot any - you know, in his head, people who screwed him over. Whether he's right or wrong, that's another question. But he's not killing people randomly. It's not, you know, large-level mass killing.

This is - I mean, this is essentially - you know, you talk about the movie being inspired by "Taxi Driver," but really, we were inspired by a time of films. And I would say there is as much "Death Wish" in this film - it's a revenge film as much as a "Taxi Driver," "King Of Comedy," "Network," "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest," all these movies that inspired us. But anyway, it just felt really surprising to us when we started getting attacked for it being too violent, when you're like, wait a minute.

GROSS: Joaquin Phoenix lost over 50 pounds for this role, like he kind of did in "The Master." And when his shirt is off, he looks so undernourished, and you imagine he's, like, emotionally undernourished and spiritually undernourished, that he's undernourished in every way. Like, his bones jutting out is kind of like a metaphor for his whole existence. How did you feel watching him lose that much weight? It's not a healthy thing to do. I understand his desire to do it for the role, and it really is - it's very disturbing to see. It's very effective in the movie. But were you worried about his health when he was doing it, and did you feel very responsible?

PHILLIPS: OK, so first, I should say he did not have any desire to do it. That was something I asked him to do. He really...

GROSS: Oh, really?

PHILLIPS: Yeah. He came to me early in the script. It was written, you know, that Arthur is - I don't know if we use these words, but malnourished and wolf-like in his appearance, you know, or coyote - I don't remember. But it was always really important to me that he was bone-skinny. Joaquin came to me early on in those initial meetings we were talking about doing the movie and said, you know, what do you think if it's the opposite? What do you think if he's sort of, like, heavy Joker, like, you know, just kind of because, you know, he's on all these medications, and sometimes, the side effects of medications is you gain weight. And I said, no, I really think he needs to sort of look hungry all the time, or as you said, just malnourished. And he was bummed because he knew how hard it was because, like you said, he'd done that before in "The Master." He lost a bunch of weight.

I was only concerned because he put it off for so long. He didn't really start losing weight until, I think, May or June, and we started shooting in September. And I kept saying, when do you start doing it? He's like, don't worry. Don't worry. I know to do this. I've done it before. And so I was only concerned with the speed at which he did it, which really - he lost 52 pounds in three months, I think. And now I will also say he had to lose 20, meaning even Joaquin would say he was 20 pounds overweight at that time for him. So, you know, the 20, we're like, OK, good. Now he's back to how he normally is. But then to lose those 30 was no joke.

GROSS: Todd Phillips, thank you so much. It's really been great to have you back on the show. And congratulations on the success of the film. I mean, people are very passionate. People are divided about it, but it's provoked a lot of really interesting conversations. And for - it's a great piece of filmmaking.

PHILLIPS: It has definitely - yeah, it has definitely struck a nerve. And I really appreciate you having me on, Terry. It's a thrill.

DAVIES: Todd Phillips speaking with Terry Gross in January. He produced, directed and co-wrote the film "Joker," which is nominated for 11 Oscars. The Academy Awards ceremony is Sunday. Coming up, we remember actor Kirk Douglas, who died Wednesday at the age of 103. Also, Justin Chang reviews the new Russian movie "Beanpole." I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF HILDUR GUDNADOTTIR'S "DEFEATED CLOWN")
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Kirk Douglas, a leading man in Hollywood in the 1950s and '60s, died Wednesday at his home in Beverly Hills. He was 103 years old. Douglas was known for his muscular good looks and a voice that often broke with emotion in dramatic scenes. He grew up in poverty, the son of poor, illiterate Jewish immigrants. He started acting in college, changed his name and got into movies after serving in the Navy in World War II. He would eventually make more than 70 films, winning three Oscar nominations for best actor but never capturing the prize. In 1996, he accepted a lifetime achievement award at the Academy Awards ceremony after coming back from a debilitating stroke. His son is the actor Michael Douglas.

Here's a sampling of some of Kirk Douglas's memorable performances. He was a trumpet player in the 1950 film "Young Man With A Horn."

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "YOUNG MAN WITH A HORN")

KIRK DOUGLAS: (As Rick Martin) What a dope I was. I thought you were class, like a real high note you hit once in a lifetime. That's because I couldn't understand what you were saying half the time. Oh, you're like those carnival joints I used to work in - big flash on the outside, but on the inside, nothing but filth.

DAVIES: He played the leader of a slave revolt against the Roman Empire in the 1960 spectacle "Spartacus."

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SPARTACUS")

DOUGLAS: (As Spartacus) What are we, Crixus? What are we becoming - Romans? Have we learned nothing? What's happening to us? We look for wine when we should be hunting bread.

NICK DENNIS: (As Dionysius) When you've got wine, you don't need bread.

DOUGLAS: (As Spartacus) We can't just be a gang of drunken raiders.

DENNIS: (As Dionysius) What else can we be?

DOUGLAS: (As Spartacus) Gladiators.

DAVIES: In "Lust For Life" in 1956, Kirk Douglas was the artist Vincent Van Gogh.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "LUST FOR LIFE")

DOUGLAS: (As Vincent Van Gogh) I want nothing but to work, only I can't. I'm in a cage, a cage of shame and self-doubt and failure. Somebody believe me. I'm caged. I'm caged. I'm alone. I'm frightened.

DAVIES: And in 1951, he was a cynical disgraced reporter in "Ace In The Hole."

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ACE IN THE HOLE")

DOUGLAS: (As Chuck Tatum) I know newspapers backward, forward and sideways. I can write them, edit them, print them, wrap them and sell them.

PORTER HALL: (As Jacob Q. Boot) Don't need anybody right now.

DOUGLAS: (As Chuck Tatum) I can handle big news and little news, and if there's no news, I'll go out and bite a dog.

DAVIES: And a year after that role, Douglas played an unprincipled Hollywood producer in the 1952 film "The Bad And The Beautiful."

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE BAD AND THE BEAUTIFUL")

DOUGLAS: (As Jonathan) Well, congratulations. You've got it all laid out for you so you can wallow in pity for yourself - the betrayed woman, the wounded doe with all the drivel that goes with it going through your mind right now. Oh, he doesn't love me at all. He was lying. All those lovely moments, those tender words - he's lying. He's cheap and cruel. That little woman Lila - well, maybe I like Lilas. Maybe I like to be cheap once in a while. Maybe everybody does. Or don't you remember?

DAVIES: Terry spoke to Kirk Douglas in 1988 after his autobiography "The Ragman's Son" was published.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: You started off in your first movie playing someone who is pretty weak in the film...

DOUGLAS: That's right.

GROSS: ..."The Strange Love"...

DOUGLAS: That's right.

GROSS: ..."Of Martha Ivers." And you went on to become a character who was seen as very strong. In fact, you were - mentioned that Elia Kazan refers to you in his autobiography. And I'd like to read one of the things that he says when he was making the film "The Arrangement," based on his best-selling novel. You wanted to be in the film. And he cast you in it, although he says he - there was something about the role that he thought Marlon Brando would have been better for.

And Elia Kazan writes, there was one problem with Kirk. Eddie, the character, has to start defeated in every personal way. The film rests on how basic and painful his initial despair is. Kirk has developed a professional front, a man who can overcome any obstacle. He radiates indomitability. Marlon, on the other hand, with all his success and fame, was still unsure of his worth and of himself. Acting had little to do with it. It was all a matter of personality.

Did you ever think of yourself that way, as just radiating indomitability...

DOUGLAS: Well...

GROSS: ...And that affecting the kind of roles...

DOUGLAS: Well, you know...

GROSS: ...That you could or could not do well?

DOUGLAS: Working with Kazan in "The Arrangement" was a wonderful experience. He's a great director. But I disagree with him completely. When I did "Lust For Life," which I consider one of the most intriguing roles that I've played, I played a man completely unsure of himself. As a matter of fact, I sometimes tell my fellow actors that no one can play weakness better than I, starting with the very first movie that I did, "The Strange Love Of Martha Ivers." And then when you go to a character like "Lust For Life" - I remember the first time we showed that, and I described this incident in my book where John Wayne was drinking at a party after a showing. He was very annoyed. He motioned me, brought me out on the balcony and said he was very annoyed. He said, Kirk, how can you play such a sniveling, weak character? And I said, well, John - I said, well, you know, I'm an actor. It was an interesting role. I wanted to play it. No, no, he says. Kirk, we've got to play tough, macho guys. And he was really upset that I would be playing such a weak character.

You just read me a section where Kazan says that I just have that indomitable spirit. He must've been carried away by some other movie because if you look at "Lust For Life," the pathetic, you know, tragic aspects of a man who really didn't know what he was, who couldn't sell a painting, who wasn't sure that he - was he a homosexual? He didn't know quite what he was. And that - those were the facets of the character that excited me, although most people, I think, think of me - the last movie I did with Burt Lancaster was called "Tough Guys" - as sort of a tough guy. But I love to play parts or try to find parts with different dimensions. You see, Terry, if I play a strong man in a film, I look for the moments where he's weak. And if I play a weak character, I look for the moments where he's strong because that's what drama's all about - chiaroscuro, light and shade.

GROSS: You were one of the first actors to actually start their own production studio. You produced "Lust For Life," which you were just talking about. You produced...

DOUGLAS: No.

GROSS: ..."Spartacus."

DOUGLAS: No.

GROSS: You didn't produce that?

DOUGLAS: I didn't.

GROSS: I thought you did do that.

DOUGLAS: I wanted to produce "Lust For Life." I've...

GROSS: Oh, I'm sorry - my mistake.

DOUGLAS: ...Produced "Spartacus," "Vikings" "Paths Of Glory," "Lonely Are The Brave." I wanted to produce "Lust For Life," and I went to buy it and found - MGM said, we own it. And I said, oh, I want to play that part. And I ended up playing the part with Vincente Minnelli, but I didn't produce it, no.

GROSS: Why did you want to start your own production company? Did you feel like you didn't have enough freedom...

DOUGLAS: Well...

GROSS: ...As an actor?

DOUGLAS: You know, because that was a very unique thing at that time. But I wanted a production company so that I could find something that I wanted to do and then try to develop it. And sometimes, I was very successful at doing that - "Spartacus," "Paths Of Glory." But sometimes, I was very unsuccessful, as when I bought "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" and had it for 10 years and shopped it all over town. And nobody wanted to do it until my son Michael said, look, Dad. Let's be partners. Let me see if I can get the money. And he went outside of the industry and got the money, and the rest is history.

GROSS: I want to talk to you a little bit about the film "Spartacus," in which you both starred and produced. You had starred in "The Vikings," and you write in your new autobiography "The Ragman's Son" that after starring in "The Vikings," you thought, that's it - no more epics for me. And then you go and turn around and actually produce one of the real big epics, "Spartacus." Why did you want to make an epic?

DOUGLAS: Well, I didn't want to make an epic. And one of the first things I said to my group - I said, look. If we do this picture "Spartacus," let's make it as if it were a small picture. And to me, if you look at "Spartacus" again, you will find that the characters dominate the background. Most pictures - "Ben-Hur" and all that - the background is so enormous. But in "Spartacus," Olivier, Laughton, Ustinov, Jean Simmons - the characters are stronger than the background, and that's what I tried to do. In spite of the fact that it was an epic picture, I wanted the characters to be - for them to be larger than life.

GROSS: You mentioned the characters and some of the actors. You ended up casting Jean Simmons in the role of Spartacus' lover and the woman who he has a baby with. And initially, you didn't want to cast her because she's British, and you thought that that would ruin the linguistic pattern of the movie. And I'd love for you to explain what you meant by that.

DOUGLAS: Well, I have a very simple - for example, when I did "The Vikings," all the Vikings are Americans. We have a rougher pattern of speech. The English have a more elegant pattern of speech, so that makes it work. In "Spartacus," you'll notice that all the aristocratic Romans are English.

GROSS: That's right. They're great...

DOUGLAS: The slaves...

GROSS: ...Stage actors, British stage actors.

DOUGLAS: The slaves, like myself, were Americans.

GROSS: Not only that - ethnic, right? Jewish, Italian - you, Jewish; Tony Curtis, Italian - no. Tony Curtis is Jewish, too, actually, isn't he?

DOUGLAS: That's right.

GROSS: Yeah, that's right. I always forget that (laughter).

DOUGLAS: But it doesn't matter. You see, it's just that Americans have a rougher speech pattern.

GROSS: Oh.

DOUGLAS: For example, I often think that Shakespeare very often is better-played when it's done in the United States because those beautiful lines take on a rougher quality that I think Shakespeare really intended it to...

GROSS: So the slaves have the rough quality.

DOUGLAS: That's right.

GROSS: And the Romans have the more genteel, educated...

DOUGLAS: Exactly.

GROSS: ...Refined sound.

DOUGLAS: Of course, "Spartacus" - you picked on a picture that plays a big - is a big section in my book because so much happened during the making of "Spartacus." The most historical event was the breaking of the blacklist, and that's one of the reasons that Spartacus is so important to me because...

GROSS: Well, that's right. Well, Dalton Trumbo was writing it under a pseudonym, like he was writing all of his screenplays at the time, because he was blacklisted. And you insisted that for this movie, he actually use his real name. Did you think that the time was right where you could say, this is Dalton Trumbo, who wrote the movie, and - where it would actually be accepted, that the time was right to break the blacklisting and have it be accepted, at least in part of Hollywood?

DOUGLAS: Well, I'm not so sure. I did it rather impulsively. I don't think I was aware until a couple years later as I reflected upon it. And, like, you know, as I explain in my book, I began to see, you know, the significance of it. What bothered me when I did "Spartacus" was the hypocrisy in Hollywood that these people, some of them who spent a year in jail for a crime that was never very clearly stated, I mean, were denied. They're denied using their talents except behind the scenes. Studio heads would look the other way while a lot of these underfunded 10 writers would be writing scripts for very little money.

So it was so hypocritical that it annoyed me to the extent that I said, well, what happens? We had a discussion of - whose name are we going to put on the screen of "Spartacus"? And suddenly, I said, well, what happens if I put Dalton Trumbo's name on? And they said, oh, Kirk, you're bound to - they said, you know, you're going to get out of the business and all that. I said, you know, the hell with it. I want to do it. And the next day, I left "The Past" (ph). Dalton Trumbo hadn't been on a set in 10 years. I left "The Past" (ph) for Dalton Trumbo - no Sam Jackson. Of course, even Sam Jackson we wouldn't have allowed on the set. Somebody might've recognized him as Dalton Trumbo.

GROSS: That was his pen name for this movie.

DOUGLAS: Yes. And from then on - I mean, I'll never forget when Dalton Trumbo walked on the set, came over to me and says, Kirk, thanks for giving me back my name. There were people who - I got letters from different organizations. Hedda Hopper attacked me, but the sky didn't fall in. And after that, a few months after that, Otto Preminger announced that Dalton Trumbo was going to be writing this script, and the blacklist was broken.

DAVIES: Kirk Douglas speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 1988. Douglas died Wednesday at the age of 103. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded with actor Kirk Douglas in 1988. Douglas died Wednesday at the age of 103. When we left off, they were talking about Douglas' starring role in the historical epic "Spartacus."

GROSS: Let me play a clip from the movie, and this is toward the end of the first half of the film. Remember, this movie had an intermission (laughter). Spartacus and many other slaves have escaped from slavery. After they've escaped, many of the slaves are just drinking wine. They're having Romans fight each other as if the Romans were slaves. And Spartacus is saying, what are you doing with your lives? You should be doing something more productive. And he suggests that they actually fight the Roman Empire.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SPARTACUS")

DOUGLAS: (As Spartacus) What are we, Crixus? What are we becoming - Romans? Have we learned nothing? What's happening to us? We look for wine when we should be hunting bread.

DENNIS: (As Dionysius) When you've got wine, you don't need bread.

DOUGLAS: (As Spartacus) We can't just be a gang of drunken raiders.

DENNIS: (As Dionysius) What else can we be?

DOUGLAS: (As Spartacus) Gladiators - an army of gladiators. There's never been an army like that. One gladiator's worth any two Roman soldiers that ever lived.

JOHN IRELAND: (As Crixus) We beat the Roman guards here, but a Roman army's a different thing. They fight different than we do, too.

DOUGLAS: (As Spartacus) We can beat anything they send against us if we really want to.

IRELAND: (As Crixus) It takes a big army for that, Spartacus.

DOUGLAS: (As Spartacus) We'll have a big army. Once we're on the march, we'll free every slave in every town and village. Can anybody get a bigger army than that?

DENNIS: (As Dionysus) That's right. Once we cross the Alps, we're safe.

IRELAND: (As Crixus) Nobody can cross the Alps. Every pass is defended by its own legion.

DOUGLAS: (As Spartacus) There's only one way to get out of this country - the sea.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) What good is the sea if you have no ships?

DOUGLAS: (As Spartacus) The Cilician pirates have ships. They're at war with Rome. Every Roman galley that sails out of Brundisium pays tribute to them.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) They've got the biggest fleet in the world. I was a galley slave with them. Give them enough gold, and they'll take you anywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) We haven't got enough gold.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) Take every Roman we capture and warm his back a little. We'll have gold, all right.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) Spartacus is right. Let's hire these pirates and march straight to Brundisium.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters, screaming).

GROSS: Well, they get their army, and you, as Spartacus, lead them against the Roman army. I think the battle scene in "Spartacus," where the slave army and the Roman army fight, is one of the most interestingly choreographed movie battle scenes. The slaves are masked in almost a checkerboard foundation - formation. There are people - in the slave and the Roman army, as far as you can see, it is this huge vista of people (laughter). I'm wondering what your most vivid memory of being in the middle of all of that is?

DOUGLAS: Well, you see, all of that was historically accurate. We studied how Romans fought and how they arranged their armies. We shot the entire picture in the United States, except for those scenes, which we shot in Spain because you needed so many people. And we used lots of Spanish soldiers. The battle scenes were all shot in Spain because it needed thousands of people.

GROSS: There is a scene at the end that is a mass crucifixion, and you're one of the many actors on the cross (laughter) at the end of the movie. And I'd really like to know how you were attached to the cross so that you could hang there without really hurting yourself.

DOUGLAS: Well, as a matter of fact, playing that scene, we learned an awful lot about crucifixion. We learned that it would be impossible to be crucified the way, very often, you see the crucifixion. You know, the body would sag right down. But to make our scenes effective, it was very easy. Every cross had a bicycle seat. It just kept the body up high enough...

GROSS: (Laughter).

DOUGLAS: ...So that you wouldn't be sagging down in a very unattractive position.

GROSS: You quote your wife in your book, who once said to you, it's an unnatural life just being wrapped up in make-believe characters. You've played so many different characters through the course of your career. Were you ever confused about who you really were as opposed to who the characters you played were?

DOUGLAS: Well, the only time I encountered something similar to that was in playing "Lust For Life." Van Gogh really was a painful character to play. And shooting a picture - we shot at Auvers-sur-Oise and (unintelligible) Les Baux (ph) - all the places that Van Gogh lived. And when I came to the town of Auvers-sur-Oise, where Van Gogh died, and I had this stubby, red beard and kinky, red hair and the outfit, a lot of the old timers there said, (speaking French). They actually felt as if Van Gogh had come back, so there was an amazing resemblance that I must have had to Van Gogh, and that all affected me. And the poignancy of that role did really get to me. I never watched "Lust For Life" until about six months after it was finished. I just didn't want to even be close to it. It was a painful experience.

GROSS: People think of you. They think of your voice. Physically, they really think of the dimple in your chin. And when you started acting, was there ever a time where that was seen as a disadvantage? Did anyone ever try to cover that up with makeup?

DOUGLAS: Oh, yeah. The first time I came to Hollywood, you know, and they're looking at this Broadway actor, there was talk of - and they did. They filled it up with putty.

GROSS: Oh, really?

DOUGLAS: And it had to be an awful lot of putty because I don't have a dimple in my chin. I have a hole in my chin.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DOUGLAS: And it annoyed me. I said, look. I just pushed the putty out. I said, look. This is what you get if you want it. I'm not going to change it, so let me know if this is what you want, or I'm going back to New York. And that was the end. I mean - and since then, I've never - you know, it's a part of me.

GROSS: So you never let them actually shoot you with the putty in your chin.

DOUGLAS: No, because if I wanted to play - oh, I would do that, if there was a real reason where I wanted someone to have, like, a big lantern (ph) jaw and covering up this dimple in my chin would give me that effect. I would do it if it's - if the reason was to play a certain character or it's covered up when you have a beard. I mean, I do whatever I feel you have to do to play the character, not for, you know, vanity's sake. I am what I am. I can't change that.

DAVIES: Kirk Douglas speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 1988. Douglas died Wednesday at the age of 103. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new Russian movie "Beanpole." This is Fresh Air.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. Film critic Justin Chang has a review of the new Russian movie "Beanpole," which he says is one of the most exciting discoveries he made at last year's Cannes Film Festival. The movie won a prize at Cannes for its 28-year-old director, Kantemir Balagov and was shortlisted for an Oscar for best international feature. It's set in Leningrad shortly after World War II. Here's Justin.

JUSTIN CHANG, BYLINE: One of the first things you hear in "Beanpole" is the sound of a woman gasping for air. Her name is Iya, and as she comes into view, we see that she is staring into space, experiencing something between a seizure and a fugue state. She has these episodes every so often. Her body freezes up for minutes at a time, immobilizing her and making it difficult for her to breathe. It's an apt metaphor for this bleak and beautifully acted drama, which takes place in Leningrad in 1945, a moment when the shell-shocked Russian populace is struggling to catch its collective breath.

Iya, brilliantly played by Viktoria Miroshnichenko is the 6-foot-tall beanpole of the title. But although she's physically imposing, she's a quiet, recessive presence, speaking rarely and with her eyes almost always cast downward. We learn that she was briefly stationed with the Red Army - it's not entirely clear what her role was - until she was diagnosed with post-concussion syndrome and discharged. Now she works as a nurse, dutifully tending to wounded vets and coming to life only in the presence of her young son, Pashka.

Early on, Iya brings Pashka to her hospital ward, where the soldiers, engaging the boy in a game of charades, ask him to imitate a dog. But as one of them points out, Pashka couldn't possibly know what a dog looks like. They were all eaten during the war. Not long afterward, something unbearably awful happens, the latest blow of many that Iya has to absorb. "Beanpole," directed with extraordinary intimacy by the gifted 28-year-old filmmaker Kantemir Balagov is about how the trauma of war lingers and seeps into everyday life, even after the war itself has technically ended.

The story really gets going when Iya's army pal Masha, played by an excellent Vasilisa Perelygina, returns home from the frontlines. The two women couldn't be more different and not just because Iya towers over Masha physically. Where Iya is shy and withdrawn, Masha is fierce and determined, her dark eyes blazing with mischief. Yet you can tell by the strange, semi-crazed smile that sometimes crosses her features that she, too, has been deeply scarred by her own wartime experience. Masha tries to pick up the pieces of her life, landing a job alongside Iya at the hospital and beginning a flirtation with a quickly smitten young man named Sasha.

But the true focus of the story is her friendship with Iya. These two went through hell together during the war, and for better or worse, it has forged an unbreakable bond between them. "Beanpole" is about the secrets they share and the feelings of guilt, confusion and jealousy that ricochet between them as they try to move forward. It's still somewhat rare to see a war movie that focuses not on the heat of battle but on the difficult, grueling aftermath. It's rarer still to see one this attuned to the emotional and psychological dynamics between women. But "Beanpole" is exceptional in every way.

This is only the second feature directed by Balagov, who wrote the script with Aleksandr Terekhov and was inspired by Svetlana Alexievich's 2017 book "The Unwomanly Face Of War." Balagov works in a deliberately paced, dramatically spare style that admirers of Andrei Tarkovsky, Alexander Sokurov and other purveyors of austere Russian art cinema will immediately recognize. He's also a master of texture and atmosphere. You can see the horror and hopelessness etched in the anonymous faces of the men and women in the background, the ones who move alongside Iya and Masha at the hospital or silently line up to board a streetcar in the public square.

But for all the suffering he shows us, Balagov also has a remarkably beautiful eye. He brings a warm, painterly sense of color to the rundown apartment that the women share, and he dresses the actresses in the same bright Christmasy (ph) shades of red and green that we see in the peeling wallpaper. It's hard to explain how a movie this tough to watch at times could also be so strikingly lovely to look at.

But I think Balagov is attempting something both difficult and profound, and it comes into focus in a final scene that, for all its sadness, is also tentatively hopeful. He shows us that the friendship and love between these two women, even when it leads them to commit desperate, self-destructive acts, can be a life-sustaining force. Without sentimentalizing his characters or their circumstances, he shows us that the devastation of war can be a beginning as well as an end.

DAVIES: Justin Chang is a film critic for the LA Times.

On Monday's show, our guest will be Michael Pollan, who's written bestselling books about the origins of the food we eat and how psychedelics are helping scientists understand consciousness and the brain. He has a new audio book about caffeine, its effect on the mind and body. As usual, he immersed himself in his research, quitting coffee, cold turkey. Hope you can join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF DAVE HOLLAND & PEPE HABICHUELA's "JOYRIDE")

DAVIES: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. For Terry Gross, I'm Dave Davies.

(SOUNDBITE OF DAVE HOLLAND & PEPE HABICHUELA's "JOYRIDE")

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.