Actor and Screenwriter John Cusack.

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: MARCH 28, 2000
Time: 12:00
Tran: 032801np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: John Cusack Discusses `High Fidelity'
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:06

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR.

On today's FRESH AIR, actor John Cusack. He co-wrote and stars in the new movie "High Fidelity." He plays the owner of a used-record store who is obsessed with pop music and with the reasons why his girlfriends walk out on him. We'll talk with Cusack about "High Fidelity" and his other films, which include "The Sure Thing," "Say Anything," "The Grifters," and "Being John Malkovitch."

John Cusack, coming up on FRESH AIR.

First, the news.

(BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest, John Cusack, has been making movies since he was a teenager. His films include "The Sure Thing," "Say Anything," "The Grifters," and "Being John Malkovitch." He co-wrote and stars in the new film adaptation of the best-selling British novel "High Fidelity."

Cusack plays Rob Gordon, the owner of a used-record store who defines himself in terms of his favorite songs and judges everyone else in terms of theirs. He and the pop music obsessives who work for him are always making up top five lists of songs in various categories. Here's an example. The record store guy mocking him is played by Jack Black.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "HIGH FIDELITY")

JACK BLACK, ACTOR: Rob, it's your turn.

JOHN CUSACK, ACTOR: OK. I'm feeling kind of basic today. Top five side ones, track ones.

Jamie Jones, "Clash," from "The Clash."

BLACK: Ennnhh.

CUSACK: "Let's Get It On," Marvin Gaye, from "Let's Get It On."

Nirvana smells like teen spiroff and never mind (ph).

BLACK: Oh, no, Rob, that's not obvious enough, not at all. How about "Point of No Return" on "Point of No Return"? Lewis, so you couldn't (ph) get up (inaudible).

CUSACK: "White Light, White Beach," Velvet Underground."

BLACK: OK, that would be on my list.

ACTOR: Though not on mine.

CUSACK: Massive Attack, "No Protection," the song is "Radiation Ruling the Nation."

BLACK: Oh, kind of a new record, very...

ACTOR: Excuse me, (inaudible)...

BLACK: In a minute. Very nice, Rob. A sly declaration of new classic status slipped into a list of old safe ones. Very (bleep).

ACTOR: Excuse me, I was (inaudible)...

BLACK: In a minute. Couldn't you be any more obvious than that, Rob? How about, I don't know, the Beatles? How about Beethoven, track one, side one, of the Fifth Symphony?

How can someone who has no interest in music own a record store?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: It's not just music that Rob divides into top five lists. The movie starts with his list of the top five most memorable breakups with girlfriends. In fact, his long-term girlfriend has just walked out on him and is living with another guy, their former upstairs neighbor.

Rob's been pressuring her to get back together. Here's John Cusack with Danish actress Iben Hjejle as his girlfriend. She's trying to explain why she left him.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "HIGH FIDELITY")

IBIN YILA, ACTRESS: I left because we weren't exactly getting along, and we weren't talking about it. I'm getting to a point where I want to get my (bleep) together, and I can't really see that ever happening with you.

And, yes, I sort of got interested in someone else, and that went further than it should have, so it seemed like a good time to go.

But I have no idea what will happen with Ian in the long run. Probably nothing.

CUSACK: So what? You definitely haven't decided to dump me, is that it? There's still a chance we might get back together?

YILA: I don't know.

CUSACK: Well, if you don't know, there's a chance, right? I mean, it would be like if someone was in the hospital and he was seriously ill, and the doctor said, "I don't know if this patient has a chance of survival or not," that doesn't mean that the patient's definitely going to die, now, does it? I mean, he might live, even if it's a remote possibility.

YILA: I suppose so.

CUSACK: So we have a chance (inaudible)...

YILA: Shut up, Rob.

CUSACK: I just want to know where I stand here. What chance? (inaudible)...

YILA: What -- I don't know what chance we have, (inaudible)...

CUSACK: You could tell me roughly.

YILA: All right, we have a 9 percent chance of getting back together, OK?

CUSACK: Nine?

YILA: Nine.

CUSACK: Great.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: John Cusack, welcome to FRESH AIR.

CUSACK: Hi.

GROSS: What did you most relate to about the story in "High Fidelity" in your character of Rob?

CUSACK: I think I was like a lot of other people, where when we read the book, we said, Oh, that's Rob, Rob's me, and I think everybody feels that way, most males do, I guess, straight males, anyway, who've been through two or three relationships. And I think we can also relate to that time in our 30s when we realized that the fantasy about romantic love is not really going to work for us.

GROSS: Was there a particular self-delusion that you recognized yourself in?

CUSACK: No, I just -- it's much more of the pattern of what -- why do we get cold feet when we're with a woman that we love? And it's not like a moral issue, it's not an issue of, it's the right thing to be monogamous. I mean, if you're not in love with someone, you can certainly be with whoever you want. I don't have any problem with that.

But I think even when you are in love with a woman, you still get this sneaking suspicion that there's going to be this woman who's going to come along, who's going to be some magical object who's going to make the laws of gravity not apply to you, and you're not going to have to work at it.

And we just can't believe that we have to live with a woman for a long time without that rush of seeing her face for the first, second, and third time again.

So, I mean, I can relate to that, because, you know, I've been with women who I really, really cared about, but you still -- you're always, you know, keeping sort of one foot -- maybe one foot out the door just in case you meet that one magical creature. And, of course, the magical creature doesn't exist, because once you get to know them, they're all just people.

GROSS: The character of Rob is someone who evaluates everybody in terms of their taste, in terms of what records they like, what movies they like. And he says, "What matters is what you like, not what you are like."

CUSACK: Which is truly an evil statement. (laughs)

GROSS: (laughs) Did you go through a phase like that of just wanting to know, like, what actors do people like? What are their favorite movies? And that will tell me everything I need to know about them.

CUSACK: Yes, well, I think you sort of, you know, it's sort of a club mentality, which you try to find people who have the same perspective as you, and you think that will, you know, guarantee some sort of bond or intimacy with someone. But then, you know, as you get older, you realize that's not quite true.

GROSS: But it's kind of true in some ways, (laughs) that taste is a kind of good basis for a bond.

CUSACK: But what he's saying is -- I mean, he's saying what really matters is not what someone's like but what someone likes...

GROSS: Yes.

CUSACK: ... which means...

GROSS: Right.

CUSACK: ... I mean, it just -- you think about it, it's quite mad.

GROSS: Yes, and it also gives someone like Rob the ability to justify a lot of shabby ways he treats people. (laughs)

CUSACK: Yes, yes, (inaudible) true test of his faith later on in the novel is -- he meets someone he really likes and then finds out that they have a copy of the sound track to the "Titanic" and a few Tina Turner albums, and sort of throws him for a loop. And he can't quite put that together, because he really did like the person.

GROSS: Do you know any people who are like the characters in the used-record store in "High Fidelity"?

CUSACK: Oh, when I read Nick's book -- Nick Hornby's book, I immediately knew the equivalent in Chicago. I even knew all the geography. I knew where the record store was when I was growing up in suburban Chicago. I knew the record store in downtown Chicago when I was a little older and living there. I knew where Rob went when he was depressed. He went right to the Green Mill. And I knew where he spun records, I knew the clubs he went to, I knew the music scene there. And I think that's kind of the, you know, the genius of Nick's book, is that it really could be anywhere, it could be in Seattle, Boston, Chicago.

I mean, I don't know if it would play in Beijing, but any Western-style country's...

GROSS: Did you...

CUSACK: Everybody knows these people.

GROSS: Did you know those stores from buying records there?

CUSACK: Oh, yes. I mean, you just know the whole culture, you just know that whole music culture.

GROSS: In a way, you know, like, if you are really into buying books or records, those stores are almost like museums where all the rare stuff is.

CUSACK: Oh, yes.

GROSS: And the guys who work there are the people who are the real experts.

CUSACK: Yes, and that's, I mean, one of the things that's so great about -- I -- the book, and hopefully we've captured in the film, is, you know, these people who are -- Rob, Dick, and Barry, the people who run the record store and who are so obsessed by and define their lives through music, they really see themselves as misplaced royalty, you know, as these great underappreciated experts and scholars who really know more about anything that's ever been recorded than the entire world.

So there's really a great sense of fun about that, because they're so full of themselves.

GROSS: John Cusack is my guest, and he stars in the new movie "High Fidelity."

One of the things that I think really works in the movie is the way you've managed to preserve the main character's voice. I think one of the transi -- one of the difficult transitions in making any novel into a book is, how do you get that interior monologue in a movie? And the way you solved that problem in "High Fidelity" was to have the main character, Rob, actually give monologues and talk to the camera, just talk to us, the audience.

You were one of the co-writers of the screenplay and one of the producers of the film. Was that a big discussion about whether there should be these monologues within the movie or not?

CUSACK: Yes. I sort of -- when we first started adapting it, we played around with the idea, then we sort of put it to rest for a while. And we were working on the script, and finally we couldn't really figure out a way to get all those interior monologues sufficiently into the film, because the parts of Rob that, you know, are a slacker and in denial and inert and, you know, lazy and all those fun things, that was easy. I mean, it was easy to play him as the fool.

But I think what gives Nick's characters, and especially Rob, you know, a redemptive quality is their courage at sort of looking at all those hard, uncomfortable truths that we'd rather avoid. And it was very difficult to get those out. So I think the best thing we came up with was, we should just have him kind of confess it to the audience and start a relationship with the audience as a confidant or a -- you know, something of that nature.

GROSS: Now, what did you have to do to the writing in the book to make it work as a monologue to the camera?

CUSACK: Not much, really. We just had to find sort of that device to get inside his head, and just choosing what to use when talking to the camera. So we just decided that it would have to be kind of the pure stuff, it would have to be him admitting, you know, some of the very comic and painful truths that Rob does. I mean, because he's really a great contradiction that way. He's -- he does have a lot of courage to look at himself, and he's very aware of his behavior, and he's aware when he's doing something wrong. He acutely feels, you know, what he's doing.

But -- so by using the direct address to the camera, we were able to get that out.

GROSS: Can I ask you to do a few lines from one of the monologues, or read a passage from the book that I know that you have with you that you adapted into one of the monologues?

CUSACK: Sure. I'll read you something that we sort of start the film with, which is -- the setting is that Rob's girlfriend, Laura, has just left him, and he has retreated into his usual sort of isolated world of music. And he's got his headphones on, and he's got the -- some angry music blaring. And he just looks up in a camera and says the following.

"What came first, the music or the misery? Did I listen to music because I was miserable, or was I miserable because I listened to music? Do all these records turn you into a melancholy person? You know, people worry about kids playing with guns and teenagers watching violent videos. We're scared that some sort of culture of violence will take them over. But nobody worries about kids listening to thousands, literally thousands, of songs about broken hearts, rejection, pain, misery, and loss.

The unhappiest people I know, romantically speaking, are the ones who like pop music the most. And I don't know whether pop music has caused this unhappiness, but I do know that they've been listening to the sad songs longer than they've been living unhappy lives."

GROSS: That's a great passage. So that was one that you and the other writers knew had to be in the movie.

CUSACK: Yes, we wanted to sort of anchor sort of the heartbreak with the obsession with music right off the bat. So that's how -- that's sort of how we opened the film.

GROSS: Is it hard to do a monologue into the camera? You're not talking to a person, you're not reacting to anything. What do you have to think about to make that work? Because it can be really stagy and not work. I think it really does work in the movie.

CUSACK: Yes, we sort of -- I sort of -- I mean, we thought of "Alfie," you know, with Michael Caine, as one where it really worked, and then there were many, many instances where it didn't. But I think just choosing the right content is the most important thing. I mean, you certainly can't have it be a casual aside. It has to be very, very funny, or very honest, but it can't move the plot forward or anything like that.

And I think once you start doing it, it's actually very liberating.

GROSS: How, how, how?

CUSACK: Well, it just seems to cut to the chase in some kind of fantastic way, and it's so direct that it's kind of startling to do.

GROSS: I always wonder if, like, the soliloquies in Shakespeare's time were the equivalent of this. (laughs) It's like talking to the audience.

CUSACK: We should be so lucky.

GROSS: (laughs)

CUSACK: But I speak -- I've spoken to other actresses and actors about it who've done it. You know, I know Nicole Kidman did the same thing in "To Die For," and she said, you know, she was very nervous to do it, but then once she started, you know, she didn't want to stop. And I sort of felt the same way, once I really committed to it. It was part of my -- one of my favorite parts of the process.

GROSS: My guest is John Cusack. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: My guest is John Cusack, the star of such films as "The Sure Thing," "Say Anything," "The Grifters," "Grosse Point Blank," and "Being John Malkovitch." He co-wrote and stars in the new film "High Fidelity."

Watching "High Fidelity" helped me, I think, figure out one of the things that really works for you as an actor. I always believe you have an inner life. Like, when you're on screen, I always believe that you're thinking interesting thoughts and that the world is registering on you, and you're having, you know, like, a dialogue with yourself about the meaning of it, and that dialogue is, I always imagine, kind of funny also.

There's a lot of actors who just don't quite have that. You don't imagine having them -- having an inner life.

CUSACK: They're probably more adjusted...

GROSS: (laughs)

CUSACK: ... in some way.

GROSS: Well, some of them, you imagine, are too busy looking in the mirror to spend time having an inner life.

CUSACK: Oh, yes, they have that disease too, yes.

GROSS: (laughs) Is that something that you think about when you're acting, or something that you think either exists or doesn't, that one projects?

CUSACK: I would imagine that would just be an aesthetic that someone either has or they don't. You know, it would have to do with maybe their mind racing around a bit too fast for their own good, or maybe something more poetic, I don't know. But it's -- I don't quite know why that is, but some people just have a certain complexity to their personalities that comes through on film.

GROSS: I think that is also key in "Being John Malkovitch," where you play the avant-garde puppeteer, (laughs) a real malcontent. And...

CUSACK: It's been a season for malcontents for me.

GROSS: Yes, right, right. Did that movie, the "Being John Malkovitch," where you played the avant-garde puppeteer, give you a chance to work through the pretentiousness of some bad avant-garde art that I'm sure you were exposed to?

CUSACK: Oh, yes. I knew those guys, and I've known a lot of them over the years. And -- but also, I mean, I sort of know that person, you know, without getting Bravo Channel about it all, I knew that person within myself too. I mean, there's a part of every, you know, actor or artist, I think, that takes himself incredibly seriously and thinks that his perceptions and feelings and intuitions are a great burden because of their depth.

And so I sort of had a wonderful time, you know, playing that sort of pompous, arrogant character. It's a lot of fun to do that stuff.

GROSS: What did you first think of the script when you read it?

CUSACK: "Being John Malkovitch"?

GROSS: Yes.

CUSACK: I thought -- I read it five years ago before it was even an idea to be made. It was just a writing sample from this brilliant writer named Charlie Kaufman. And I could conceive of a world where Charlie would write that script, but I couldn't conceive of a world where someone would finance that as a film. But just, you know, to be safe, I told my agents, I said, "This is a film I want to do. If anyone else does this film and you lose track of it, you know, I'm off to another agency, because this is the most original piece of writing I think I've ever read."

And I imagined that would have been what it would have been what it would be like to read, you know, Python when it first came out, the Monty Python scripts or something, just a completely original comic voice.

So when I found out that it was financed, and I said, Well, if it's financed, that means John must be doing it, John Malkovitch must be doing it. And I know John, so I called him up, and he said, "Oh, yes, yes, you should do it," and so I jumped at the chance.

GROSS: Did things play out differently on screen than you had imagined it from your reading of the script?

CUSACK: Not at all. The script was really, you know, a brilliant document. I mean, Spike and Charlie worked on it a bit, but it was all there on the page. And it sort of cried out for the actors to really play it as a drama. I mean, it was very -- it just had a completely unique tone. It was completely absurd and inventive, and it kept topping itself in ways you couldn't imagine.

But it was emotionally very, very straightforward. So we just had this sense that, you know, you can't -- you can never get caught winking at the camera, and you can't get caught enjoying the madness of the piece. It must be played with pure emotional sincerity. And if you do that, you know, we have a chance at doing something new, which doesn't really come up that often.

GROSS: Did you need a chiropractor or an Alexander teacher after working in a set where the floor is, like, half the height of a regular floor?

CUSACK: Yes, yes, they actually had a chiropractor sort of on the set so...

GROSS: Oh, really?

CUSACK: ... you know, at lunch you'd see -- you'd just hear these terrible popping and cracking sounds, and people would be lying down to be adjusted. But then I thought maybe that they had just made (inaudible) floor because I was a lot taller, and Spike and Charlie are short guys, and they could walk around down there. And so that was just sort of their revenge against those of us over, you know, five-seven.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is John Cusack.

Your sister, Joan Cusack, has a role in "High Fidelity." You've worked with her in several of your films. Is it important to you when possible to have her in movies that you're making?

CUSACK: Yes, it's important to me, and it seems to be important to the people that I'm making the movies with. If there's a role that Joanie's right for, you know, when we start casting, they all just sort of look at me and go, Well, can you get your sister? Because everybody wants Joanie, because she's so fabulous. And I know I'm biased, but I think a lot of people share my opinion of her work.

So the idea of getting her to come in and do a week or two on the film is just kind of a no-brainer.

GROSS: She's a few years older than you. How many was it?

CUSACK: Let's see...

GROSS: Four?

CUSACK: Yes.

GROSS: So she started acting first in a children's theater in Chicago. How did you get started in it? Did your parents think, Well, he's 9 now, time to send him over there?

CUSACK: No, I think, you know, I'd seen Joan and my sister Anne perform with this theater in suburban Chicago, and, you know, it just seemed sort of like a magical place, and it seemed like those people up there were doing all these fun things. And they were getting a lot of attention. There was a whole audience full of people who were quietly watching them with sort of rapt attention.

And so I said, That looks fun, I got to try that. And I tried it. And I think it was just a great way to get people to pay attention to you.

GROSS: Do you think that's how it starts?

CUSACK: I think so, yes.

GROSS: John Cusack co-wrote and stars in the new film "High Fidelity," which opens on Friday. He'll be back in the second half of the show.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

From the sound track of "High Fidelity," here's Jack Black singing "Let's Get It On."

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "LET'S GET IT ON," JACK BLACK, FROM "HIGH FIDELITY")

(BREAK)

GROSS: Coming up, we continue our conversation with actor John Cusack and discuss his early films, including "The Sure Thing," "Say Anything," and "The Grifters."

(BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR.

I'm Terry Gross, back with John Cusack. He co-wrote and stars in the new film "High Fidelity." It opens on Friday. His other films include "The Sure Thing," "Say Anything," "The Grifters," "Bullets Over Broadway," "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil," "Grosse Point Blank," and "Being John Malkovitch."

You did your first movie when you were 16. The movie was "Class." Tell us a little bit about the -- what the plot was.

CUSACK: Well, let's see, that was the Rob Lowe-Andrew McCarthy vehicle back in around 1983, and...

GROSS: It was the whole Rob Lowe era. (laughs)

CUSACK: It was the Rob Lowe era, yes. We were all a part of that. And I believe it was two people who were in a prep school, and one of the roommates has an affair with the other one's mother, played by the glorious Jacqueline Bissette. So I was kind of in the right place at the right time. I was 16, and they were making films about teenagers, and they made two of them in Chicago. And since I had been in the theater and I thought I had my chops up, I guess I had an instinct for auditioning, and I got those roles.

And that's what really started to give me a career.

GROSS: So it was "Class" and "Sixteen Candles"?

CUSACK: Yes.

GROSS: Did the kids that you played in the movies reflect your character at all, or are the kinds who -- that you knew in high school did it -- these just seem like movie people?

CUSACK: Let's see. I think in -- certainly when I was in "Class," I was -- you know, I always thought -- or I probably had the instinct that the first thing you do is sort of play yourself, and if you can get comfortable as yourself in front of the camera, then you can start to play different aspects of yourself in different characters.

So I think when I was in "Class," I played, you know, tried to play a version of myself, or maybe who I'd like to be, or who I thought -- a part of me that I thought would be funny or -- you know, if I was in a prep school, what would I be like? You know, I think that's the thought process that goes through the 16-year-old actor's mind.

GROSS: Tell us something about what you were like when you were in high school.

CUSACK: Well, I just couldn't wait to get out of high school. And, you know, I just -- I really hated it, if I remember (inaudible)...

GROSS: Why?

CUSACK: Oh, I don't know, probably for the same reasons that most everyone does, you know, seemed like you were just required to, you know, retain data rather than think or -- you know, all the cliques and, you know, sort of the social stuff seemed kind of disgusting. You know, that kind of thing.

GROSS: I would imagine you were pretty highly regarded in high school because you were making movies.

CUSACK: Well, I really wasn't highly regarded in high school. And then when I started making movies, of course I was, which was another valuable lesson.

GROSS: Oh, an early introduction into hypocrisy. (laughs)

CUSACK: Yes, yes. I mean, I didn't really get much play with the ladies. But then all of a sudden when I did a few films, I was taking the jocks' girls.

GROSS: Well, did you try to teach anybody a lesson? (laughs)

CUSACK: No, not me. No, ma'am.

GROSS: (laughs) You told "Premiere" magazine that when you were young you had this bizarre amount of focus that came from a competitive desire to prove yourself. You said, "I'd walk into an audition with an attitude like, If I am in this room, you damn sure are going to look at me."

Tell me more about that attitude when you went into an audition.

CUSACK: Well, I just sort of -- I don't know, I think auditioning is a totally different muscle than acting, and right now if I had to audition for my parts, I would probably be doing community theater. It's just a totally different muscle. But what I figured out is, is that when you walk through that door, you know, no one's going to want to wait for you to warm up, they're not going to want to wait for you to sort of get loose and rev your engines up.

You sort of have to come through that door already going 60. They don't want to wait for you to go from zero to 60, so you really have to sort of make an impact and get to a performance level right away. You have to get someone's attention, and they're looking for sort of solutions and answers, so you have to come in and be an answer.

So I really sort of, you know, would listen to whatever music would get me revved up and sort of defiant, and then just sort of try to channel my energy into focus.

GROSS: What music would that have been?

CUSACK: Oh, God, at the time, probably some Who song or something ridiculous like that.

GROSS: Now, would you be relying on ego power to get that I am here, all eyes are on me, sense, or would you use acting skills to do it?

CUSACK: Well, clearly not the acting skills. I think -- I don't think it has -- it's not really like an ego -- well, I guess it is an ego that you're -- you feel like you're better than someone. You feel like you're the best person for the part, but it's much more about, like, a focusing of your energies, and a concentration so that, you know, you're very, very alive, and you're in a state of flow, and -- but yet you're very precise with the text, and, you know, it's just -- you have to do -- you have to come in and give a very competent impression of yourself.

So I just decided, well, you know, that's just not going to happen, I'm going to have to sort of work my way up to that, get to that state, get to that place. And I think that's really what auditioning's all about, and a lot of people don't understand that, you know, you really have to make it a miniperformance.

GROSS: John Cusack is my guest, and he stars in the new movie "High Fidelity."

One of your early breakthrough roles was "The Sure Thing," in which you played a freshman in college who isn't getting the girls like he thinks he should. Then a friend in Los Angeles tells him that there's a gorgeous young woman in L.A. who's a sure thing. And so all your character has to do is get a ride to L.A.

What impact did this film have on your career?

CUSACK: Well, that sort of gave me a career, really, because I had been doing -- I'd done two supporting roles in films. And then I was -- I'd taken my money from that, and I was flying out to Los Angeles and sleeping on my agent's couch and, you know, doing auditions. And Rob Reiner gave me my first break, and he gave me a lead in a film. And so -- and the film did pretty well critically and commercially. And so I was kind of off to the races.

GROSS: I want to play a short scene from the film. And this is a...

CUSACK: From "The Sure Thing"?

GROSS: From "The Sure Thing," yes.

CUSACK: My God. Wow.

GROSS: This is the scene -- you're hitchiking -- well, you have a ride to Los Angeles, a ride with a couple of strangers, because you want to...

CUSACK: Am I required to listen to this?

GROSS: Yes, you are.

CUSACK: All right.

GROSS: So, so you, you, you're -- you've just gotten this ride to L.A., and as you get into the back seat, you realize that this woman -- this young freshman who has been tutoring you, who you don't get along with, is the other passenger. So Tim Robbins is the driver in the car who's given them a lift, and this scene starts with Tim Robbins and his girlfriend introducing everybody in the car.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE SURE THING")

ACTRESS: Are you (inaudible)?

ACTOR: Yes.

ACTRESS: Hi, welcome aboard. I'm Mary Anne Webster.

TIM ROBBINS, ACTOR: And I'm Gary Cooper. But not the Gary Cooper that's dead.

Hop in.

(PROLONGED GIGGLING LAUGHTER)

ACTRESS: Alison, this is Gib.

ROBBINS: And Gib, this is Alison.

ACTRESS: I knew I should have taken the bus.

CUSACK: What, and wind up sitting next to some sleazebag? Some sleazebag you don't know?

ACTRESS: Oh, you two know each other!

CUSACK: We're old friends.

ACTRESS: We're not old friends. We're acquaintances. Very distant acquaintances.

ROBBINS: Kids, come on, let's make this a fun trip, OK?

ACTRESS: You guys know any show tunes?

ROBBINS: That's a great idea. (singing) When the moon is in the seventh house...

ACTRESS (singing): And Jupiter aligns with Mars...

ROBBINS: ... love and peace will guide the planet...

ACTRESS: ... and love...

ROBBINS AND ACTRESS: ... will steer the skies. This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Age of Aquarius...

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: Well, John Cusack, I chose that scene because I think that's the first scene that you did with Tim Robbins, with whom you've become good friends, and...

CUSACK: Oh, yes, yes.

GROSS: ... you're in his film "Cradle Will Rock," he's in "High Fidelity" in a small but very funny role. So was this your first scene together?

CUSACK: Yes, that's where I met Tim. That's where I met Tim. He was 26 and I was 16.

GROSS: Wow. (laughs)

CUSACK: Yes, that was a long time ago.

GROSS: Yes, yes. What was it about you that connected?

CUSACK: Well, I think he's -- you know, he's a very deranged individual in a lot of ways, so we just got along great, and very, very funny and smart and -- so we just became fast friends.

GROSS: Now, I know that you created a theater company, I think, in Chicago called New Crime (ph) Theater that I read was inspired by the one that Tim Robbins had created. Is that true?

CUSACK: Yes, well, Tim was in a theater company called the Actors Gang. And when we did "The Sure Thing," we became friends, and, you know, had similar interests in films and plays, and then I think what happened was, we were in New York somewhere together, Tim and I, and I think Reagan had bombed Libya, and we found that such a depressing time, and such a depressing time -- well, all the Reagan administration seemed like a horribly depressing time.

But that moment was -- we felt was so horrible that we decided to go off and just, you know, do some piece of political theater about that. And that -- I went out and worked with the Actors Gang and did a play with them and was introduced to the Comedia del'Arte style. Actually I'd been introduced to it earlier. I'd come out and we'd done a workshop with -- he was working with some people at UCLA and the Theatre du Soleil in Paris, Georges Bijeaux (ph), and I'd come out and done that with him.

And then once Reagan bombed Libya, we decided to go do a play, and that was when I worked with the Actors Gang. And then later I took that style that I had learned and started a company in Chicago, and Tim came out and we did a play there, and so it was just sort of, like, yes, it was kind of like a brother-sister company kind of thing.

GROSS: What is the Comedia del'Arte style?

CUSACK: Well, the Italian comedy, it's the stock characters, the Harlequino, the Max, the Pantalone. They're sort of, like, the archetypes. It's a very class-conscious form, you know. And so we sort of took it and updated it and put a lot of kind of music into it. It was kind of turned into sort of like this punk rock Kabuki del'Arte. It was just sort of hybrid.

But I think what I'd done was, was, I was working in some films, and I really felt sort of confined by what they were asking me to do. It was, you know, sort of confined by the naturalism or the realism of film. I mean, they seemed to only want personality and charm and jokes.

And here I saw this style that was as limitless as the imagination, and visceral and powerful. And as a young person, I was just drawn to it in a very intense way.

GROSS: My guest is actor John Cusack. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: John Cusack is my guest, and he stars in the new movie "High Fidelity."

Let me get to your movie "Say Anything," which is, I think, another early role that really helped establish you. And in this, you play someone in high school who falls in love with the class valedictorian, but you have no academic gifts, and she's, like, the really smart one. So this seems to a lot of people like an incredible mismatch. You're also kind of directionless outside of your love for kickboxing.

So in this scene, you're at a dinner at your girlfriend's father's house, and all the adults at the table are asking you questions to figure out whether you're a worthy boyfriend.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "SAY ANYTHING")

ACTOR: So Lloyd, you graduated Lakewood, right?

CUSACK: Yes, sir.

ACTOR: What are you going to do now?

CUSACK: (inaudible). (inaudible) plans for the future. Spend as much time as possible with Diane before she leaves.

ACTOR: Seriously, Lloyd.

CUSACK: I'm telling you completely serious.

ACTOR: No, really.

CUSACK: (inaudible) career? I don't know, I've thought about this quite a bit, sir, and I would have to say, considering what's waiting out there for me, I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed or buy anything sold or processed or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a career, I don't want to do that.

So my father's in the Army, he'll ask me to join, but I can't work for that corporation. So what I've been doing lately is kickboxing. Which is a new sport, but I think it's got a good future.

As far as career longevity, I don't really know, because, you know, you can't really tell. Trade and six (ph) as a fighter, you know, it's no good, you know, you have to be great. But I can't really tell if I'm great until I've had a couple of pro fights. I haven't been knocked down yet. I don't know, I can't figure it out tonight, sir, I'm just kind of hanging with your daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: John Cusack in a scene from "Say Anything."

There are some very funny line readings in that. Did you do those lines many different ways before figuring out how you wanted to do it for the actual shoot?

CUSACK: No, not really. What I did was is, we had -- Cameron and I were working on that scene, and...

GROSS: This is Cameron Crowe, the director.

CUSACK: Cameron Crowe, I'm sorry, Cameron Crowe and I were working on that scene, and we sort of wrote that speech together, because I felt like there was a lot more that we could say, and we really wanted to sort of give him a very sort of distinct worldview. And it was sort of a worldview that I guess matched my own when I was -- I was that age, so when I was 20, 21.

(inaudible) about fears of joining into a society that you don't quite really understand or have a lot of respect for in a lot of ways. So it wasn't really line readings as much as once we've sort of -- Cameron and I were working, and we just came out with that rap. And then we just sort of said, All right, that's it, let's do it. And then we just tried it a couple different ways, we tried a few of them longer, a few of them shorter, but it's not really about line readings as much as it is just sort of getting what -- getting into the right kind of state of flow, I think.

GROSS: I think some people who get started in, you know, quote, "youth films" have a hard time getting out of it and having adult careers. Were you ever worried about that? Was that ever a problem?

CUSACK: I don't -- I was never really worried about it, because when I was playing teenagers and young people, I was a teenager and young person, so I always just sort of assumed, maybe naively, that when I got older, I'd play older roles. So I didn't have that worry. I mean, I -- you know, of course, you -- when you're younger, you want to do more substantial stuff, and you always think that there's better roles waiting for you as you get older. But I didn't have that kind of concern.

GROSS: Did you go to drama school?

CUSACK: No, I didn't.

GROSS: How come?

CUSACK: I never did. Well, I always thought that -- I mean, I was working already in films. I mean, I'd done three films and a lead in a film before I'd graduated high school. And I had had a lot of training at the Piven (ph) Theater Workshop, and, you know, Chicago and Evanston. So I'd been doing theater and working. And I always sort of thought that, you know, the people I'd met who had sort of gone to theater school and stuff and -- they always seemed to be -- I don't know, they seemed to be sort of -- there was something precious about them.

This is just my own opinion, I'm not saying it's true. But there used to be something sort of precious about it all, and I always thought, Well, if you're going to go to college, you should learn about everything else you don't know, because you can get a lot of experience acting by just doing it and working with great people.

So when I went to NYU, I was studying liberal arts for a semester, I wasn't studying theater.

GROSS: A whole semester, huh? (laughs)

CUSACK: Yes, (inaudible), made it all the way through.

GROSS: (laughs) You dropped out after that?

CUSACK: Yes, (inaudible) sort of too much fire in the belly, really. I wasn't ready to go to school, because I was working, and I was getting offers, and I really wanted to work.

GROSS: My guest is actor John Cusack. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: John Cusack is my guest.

Let me get to another film that I think showed a completely different side of you from your earlier films, and I'm thinking of "The Grifters." You know, after playing all these, like, lovable loser teenage roles, in "The Grifters," you played a guy in his mid-20s who is a con artist, and his mother, played by Anjelica Huston, is a long-time con artist, and his girlfriend, played by Annette Bening, is a con artist too.

CUSACK: Yes, Roy was doomed from the day he was born.

GROSS: (laughs) And...

CUSACK: That's what I used to say.

GROSS: Yes, and it's a terrific film, a kind of film noir, contemporary film noir. And instead of -- I mean, you're really opaque in this movie. I mean, it's hard -- you know -- you watch this movie, and you know your character's always thinking, but you're not necessarily sure what. And you're not a -- you're not quite a benign character in this either.

CUSACK: What do you mean by that?

GROSS: Well, in your other movies, even if you're kind of a loser or you're thoughtless about something, you're not dangerous in the way that this character has the potential of being, although he seems to have this kind of decency beneath. But you're kind of braced for any kind of surprise because the character's so opaque.

Let me play a scene from the movie. This is a scene with Annette Bening, who plays your girlfriend in the movie, and she has a scheme for this really ambitious con that she wants to team up with you on, and you've been taught the hard way that it's dangerous to have a partner if you're a con man. So you don't want to go along with the plan to be partners.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE GRIFTERS")

ANNETTE BENING, ACTRESS: What's going on? Why don't you want to team up?

CUSACK: The best reason I can think of is that you scare the hell out of me. I have seen women like you before, baby. You're double-tough, and you're sharp as a razor, and you get what you want or else. But you don't make it work forever. Sooner or later, the lightning hits, and I'm not going to be around when it hits you.

BENING: My God. It's your mother. It's snowing (ph).

CUSACK: What?

BENING: Sure it is. That's why you act so funny around each other.

CUSACK: What's that?

BENING: Oh, don't act to goddamned innocent. You and your own mother? Oh! You like to go back where you've been, huh?

CUSACK: Watch your mouth.

BENING: Yeah, see, I'm wise to you. I should have seen it before, you rotten son of a bitch. How is it, huh? How do you like it...

(SOUND OF BLOWS, BODY FALLING TO FLOOR, CRIES AND SHRIEKS)

BENING: Stop, stop, stop, stop!

CUSACK: That's not like me. I don't do this. That's why we wouldn't work together. You're disgusting. Your mind is so filthy, it's hard to look at you. Goodbye.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: That's a great scene. John Cusack, what did "The Grifters" enable you to do that you hadn't done on film before?

CUSACK: I'd say kind of a level of sophistication and a drama that I'd never had any opportunity to do, not even close.

GROSS: Stephen Frears, who also directed your new movie, "High Fidelity," directed "The Grifters." What did you have to do when you auditioned for this part to prove that you could play somebody as, as, as, as tough as this character is, and as -- well, tough and vulnerable, but not the kind of, like, more kind of cute, lovable loser role that you'd been playing in the teen movies?

CUSACK: (laughs) The cute, lovable loser role. Well, I think what happened was, I'd read "The Grifters," and I was a fan of Jim Thompson's from high school. And when Stephen wanted to meet me, you know, I told him that I'd always wanted to do the book. And I actually tried to option the book, I remember, when I was 19 or 20, because I thought it was so great. I thought it was this great combination of, you know, a pulp crime novel and Greek tragedy. I just thought it was so fantastic.

And so I went to meet him, and I think he was at the Algonquin Hotel, and Stephen is a very strange and -- strange, strange man, wonderful man, and -- but very, very odd processes. And he met me in the Algonquin Hotel, and I sat down, and he just started circling me. He just started walking around me, looking at me, sort of rubbing his lip.

And so what I did, I just looked back, and he turned around, and so then he went behind me, and I turned my chair around, followed him around, and we just sort of did this dance. And then we started talking about the film and talking about the script and the book. And that was it, I never auditioned, he just hired me.

GROSS: That's great. In one of the first scenes, you're -- you're -- you're -- you're -- you're doing a con in that scene. You're at a bar. You hold up a $20 to the bartender. And as you actually give him the bill, you're making eye contact with him so he can't see that you've replaced the $20 with a $10. I'm wondering where you learned the grifts from. Are these grifts from the book?

CUSACK: Yes, many of the grifts were from the book. But we also brought in a lot of professional cheaters and some experts on the subject, like Ricky Jay (ph). He came on in, and we actually found a few mechanics. Mechanics are people who do that for a living. And they came in and they gave me little tutorials on lying and deception. It was kind of a great way to spend a September.

GROSS: I imagine you learned a lot about acting from that, because that's what these guys have to do is act.

CUSACK: Well, I learned a lot about how to play the character from those guys, because they were almost like a -- you know, you said opaque, and I mean, they were almost, like, invisible. You'd be in a room with them, and they'd be the most kind of personable guys, but they'd be guys who you'd leave the room, and you couldn't remember what they were wearing or what they really looked like, or there was nothing distinctive about them. They were just -- they were kind of just nonpersons.

And I think it was -- it's by choice, because they don't want to be remembered or noticed. So that they're -- they were kind of fascinating characters.

GROSS: But I'm wondering if even you learned about things like eye contact in ways you hadn't before, like using your eyes to divert somebody when you're doing a con on them, or to hold their attention so they don't see this, this, the -- the slip of the hand, you know, they don't see what your hands are doing.

CUSACK: Yes, I mean, most -- I think mostly you find out that it's -- I mean, you find out about all these diversions, and you find out about that there's a real power in not asserting any aggressive energy. So there's -- you do sort of learn about the great power of restraint.

But more than anything else, you find out that the grifts are just about having information that the other person doesn't have in many various forms. You just have some information that he doesn't have, and that makes him very, very gullible.

GROSS: You said that when you were young, acting was about getting attention. This is when you were really young, like 9, 10. What's acting about to you now?

CUSACK: I just think it's about expression and trying to tell stories and find out how people are alike, you know, what -- you know, what it means to be kind of human and go through the same experiences. And I think it's just a very personal form of expression that's a strange one, because it's such a -- you know, there's not a more expensive art form in history, and there's so much money and pressure about it.

But it ultimately comes down to these very, very, very personal kind of performances on this large scale, so -- I just -- I'm sort of hooked.

GROSS: John Cusack, a real pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for being with us.

CUSACK: Oh, thank you for having me.

GROSS: John Cusack co-wrote and stars in the new film "High Fidelity." It opens on Friday. His movie "Being John Malkovitch" will be out on video May 2.

I'm Terry Gross. We'll close with music from the sound track of "High Fidelity."

(AUDIO CLIP, SONG FROM THE SOUND TRACK OF "HIGH FIDELITY")

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest: John Cusack
High: Actor John Cusack stars in the new film "High Fidelity," based on the novel of the same name. He plays a 35-year-old used-record store owner who keeps top-five lists for everything and can't keep a relationship. By the time Cusack was 22 he had a number of films to his credit: "The Sure Thing," "Eight Men Out," "Say Anything," and "Fat Man and Little Boy." Later he went on to make "The Grifters," "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil," "The Thin Red Line," and "Grosse Pointe Blank," which he co-wrote.
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; Profiles

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End-Story: John Cusack Discusses `High Fidelity'
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