DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Our guests today are documentary filmmaker Jonathan Olshefski and Christopher Rainey, one of the subjects of Olshefski's film "Quest," which will be shown Monday on the PBS series "POV." Rainey runs a hop-hop recording studio at his home in a working-class and poor section of North Philadelphia, where he's known as Quest.
Olshefski got interesting in the studio, which is partly for kids and adults in the neighborhood who come in and lay down their raps in a safe place. Olshefski got to know Quest, his wife Christine'a, who's known as Ma Quest, and their teenage daughter Patricia, who's called P.J., and decided the family could be the subject of a feature-length documentary. For nearly 10 years, Olshefski filmed the family's day-to-day life. We see Quest and Christine'a get married. We see Quest in his studio, which is not a money-making enterprise. And we watch him doing his paid job delivering newspapers. His wife, during the course of the film, works at a homeless shelter. We see 8-year-old P.J. grow up. And we watch the whole family try and recover from a traumatic event when P.J. is hit by a stray bullet that takes out her eye.
Terry interviewed Jonathan Olshefski and Quest in December. Here's Quest in a clip from the film.
(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "QUEST")
CHRISTOPHER RAINEY: (As himself) When I seen my child bleeding from her face screaming, Daddy, I'm sorry for getting shot - what do you say to that? It's crazy. I hear these shots every day. Every day I go out there just to make sure it ain't nobody I know. I never thought I'd go out there for my child. It's like I just watched my life - my daughter's life change instantly. And probably maybe two more steps closer, she could've been dead. Probably a half an inch closer, it could've penetrated the back of her skull.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: Quest, Jonathan Olshefski - welcome to FRESH AIR. It's great to have you both here.
Jonathan, I want to start with you. You met the Raineys through one of your students, who is Quest's brother. Do I have that right?
JONATHAN OLSHEFSKI: Correct.
GROSS: So what was it about the Raineys that made you think that they were worthy of a film and that the film would be worthy of following them around for nearly 10 years?
OLSHEFSKI: Well, I think it was a slow, incremental, you know, process. Quest - he'd invited me to come to the studio to take some pictures to promote, you know, their artists. And, you know, when I showed up just thinking it was going to be a one-off, you know, kind of, you know, photo shoot, I just really just was blown away by the studio - the community, the passion, just the DIY, grassroots sort of vibe to the place. And I was like, this is something I want to be a part of. Any way that I can contribute, you know to this scene, to this community, you know, I'm just happy to do.
And so that led to me, you know, not just going the one day but then continuing to sort of follow up. And I just started to connect to Quest and to the guys. And I started to get to know the rest of the family - the kids, the other folks that were kind of in and out of the house.
And at that point, I just realized there's a lot of layers there. There's a lot of, like, warmth and beauty. And this is just something - a story from North Philly that I wanted to tell because the normal stories coming out of North Philly aren't sort of positive. And so I just sort of approached these guys like - hey, why don't we transition a little bit and make what we thought was going to be a short little documentary? So we started it in 2007. And then, you know, it ended up being something a bit different.
GROSS: So, Quest, I want you to describe your neighborhood in North Philadelphia.
RAINEY: My neighborhood in North Philadelphia is very, very beautiful. It's quaint, and it's old. Like, all the buildings in North Philadelphia are, like, from the 1800s, even the building I live in. It was built in 1893. Some of the streets still have cobblestones or red brick down them. The neighbors are lovely. Like, all the older neighbors - they are so friendly when you go to talk to them, things like that.
You know, every neighborhood has its problems, too. So I don't want to sugarcoat and make it seem like North Philadelphia is the most beautiful place in the world, you know, to be in. But it is, like, with your eyes and physically and when you meet people. We have gardens, you know, playgrounds, like everyone else does. The kids come out. We have these fabulous block parties in Philadelphia. If you have never been to a Philadelphia block party, that is the thing to do.
I'm part of the hip-hop scene, so to speak. So all the kids really - you know, I see all the kids relating. And when they come together it's really, you know, different because you see all the different schools in our neighborhoods. And kids come from so many different places. And we like to play basketball in North Philadelphia. It's a lot of basketball courts down there, so that's where the kids come hang out at. And they get conversating - you know, they rap and stuff like that. North Philadelphia's just beautiful. I can't say enough about North Philadelphia.
GROSS: And I'll say North Philadelphia also, from the outside, has a reputation for being, like, a lot of violence...
RAINEY: Right. That's the part that they always show. You know, I find it offensive. Every time I look on the news and turn the radio on or something - you know, when they say North Philadelphia, first thing you hear is something bad about North Philly.
GROSS: So, Quest, one of the things you're famous for in the neighborhood is that you have a recording studio in your basement. How did you end up starting a studio?
RAINEY: Honestly, they started closing down all the libraries, the swimming pools, everything in the neighborhood. And we started noticing the kids started hanging on the corner. We have children ourselves, you know, that hang with these kids. So we were trying to get our kids something to do and, at the same time, get these kids off the corner. And my wife and I - we always were heavily into music, so we decided, hey, let's put a microphone, like a karaoke type thing, and let the kids come over and, you know, let them have fun 'cause we noticed that our kids liked to do that anyway. So we just told them, invite your friends. And they invited two, and they invited two. And so on and so on. It kind of grew.
GROSS: In the film, you say that the rapper you worked with with the most promise - somebody named Price...
GROSS: But he also has or had substance abuse problems.
GROSS: And so I want to play something you recorded with him. We asked you to bring something with you that you really liked, like a recording that you made. And so you brought "Rainey Dayz."
GROSS: Introduce it for us.
RAINEY: I made "Rainey Dayz" in 1998. And that song was made out of frustration - it was just an instrumental that I played on a piano - where my wife and I, we had an argument. She was still pregnant with our youngest child, Patricia. You know, we're facing a lot of issues that were kind of, like, driving us crazy. And, you know, I was just releasing myself in the homemade studio that I had in the house.
A few years later, Price came along. We met Price about 2004. And I let Price hear some of my instrumentals, and he was really attracted to the song "Rainey Dayz." And he decided to come up with some lyrics about our community and our neighborhood and what - you know, some things that's going on. And it really - they really connected. It was almost like the song that I made then was made for him, the lyrics that he has now.
GROSS: And rainy is spelled like your last name, Rainey.
RAINEY: Yes. Yes, I spelled it "Rainey Dayz," like, because the Rainey was my name, and I was actually talking about myself experiencing rainy days. And I put a Z on the end of the days because - like, dazed and confused, you know, so to speak - also saying, like, myself is very confused. That's what the title kind of means.
GROSS: OK. So this is "Rainey Dayz" with music by by my guest Quest, Christopher Rainey. And the lyric is written and performed by Price.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "RAINEY DAYZ")
PRICE: (Rapping) Kev (ph) Price. Rainey dayz, Everquest. It's Rainey dayz. It's Rainey dayz. Fairmount, it's Rainey dayz. It's Rainey dayz. North Philly, it's Rainey dayz. It's like we dead when we broke, and we alive when we rich. Some of us can't survive without a hit or a puff of the spliff or a sip of the fifth. War summer's feeling sore from hunger tricking whoremongers. Fourty-four hundred fast around me, Cobras down me, stuck in the county. Don't go (ph) die before you owe or chasing the bread. We either incarcerated or dead. Tears are pain - we weep from having the freedom, for a way out of this poverty life we seeking, members from the family in the nursing home (ph)...
GROSS: So that's "Rainey Dayz" with music by my guest Quest - Christopher Rainey - who's the subject, along with his wife and daughter, of the new documentary "Quest," which was made by Jonathan Olshefski, who is also with us. So, Quest, you worked with Price, who we just heard doing the rap on that. You worked with him a lot. You made, like, you say hundreds of records together.
RAINEY: Yes, yes.
GROSS: In the documentary about you, there's a scene in which you're having an argument. He wants another copy of a record that you made together. You've already given him five. He wants it again because he keeps losing it. And you're telling him that he's irresponsible. And he's telling you that he can't help it because he's an addict. So I want to play that scene from the film. And Price speaks first.
(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "QUEST")
PRICE: (As himself) No matter what you believe, I'm over that. I'm a new man now. It's the truth. It's the truth. I had an addiction. I'm over that now. If I was the engineer, and you was the artist, and you kept messing up, I would give you that extra hand. I would lift out to you because I would know the history we have. I know all the times we spent in the studio recording, constantly going in. I remember that.
RAINEY: (As himself) Exactly. Can I speak now? All right. I remember that, too. So why do you think I just want to throw that away like you do? If you're so careless and carefree about when I give you something that you don't have no respect for me when I say hold on to your [expletive], I'm not going to give you another copy. And then you still come here asking for another copy. What respect you've got for me? Because you know I'm a chump, and I'm going to give it to you because you can't - because this is not the first time. It's not the second time. It's not the third time. It's not the fourth time. It's not the fifth time. It's not the sixth time.
PRICE: (As himself) No, don't cross the sixth.
RAINEY: (As himself) Come on now.
PRICE: (As himself) It's the fifth.
RAINEY: (As himself) Are you invested in me?
PRICE: (As himself) I'm - yeah.
RAINEY: (As himself) And I'm invested in you. I'm not letting my music go out like that no more.
PRICE: (As himself) Listen. Let's start over. Nobody made more albums than me.
RAINEY: (As himself) Price.
PRICE: (As himself) Nobody.
RAINEY: (As himself) Price.
PRICE: (As himself) Nobody made more albums. Why wouldn't you want to do business with a [expletive] like that?
RAINEY: (As himself) But what I'm trying to tell you is how many times I got to give you something before you...
PRICE: (As himself) Last time.
RAINEY: (As himself) Price, come on.
PRICE: (As himself) I had an addiction. I had an addiction.
RAINEY: (As himself) I had an addiction.
PRICE: (As himself) Well, you know how the addiction is.
RAINEY: (As himself) Exactly. I know exactly how it is.
PRICE: (As himself) It's hard to deal with.
RAINEY: (As himself) Right.
PRICE: (As himself) I had an addiction. I wasn't the same way I was a couple months ago.
GROSS: OK. That was the rapper Price with my guest Quest - Christopher Rainey - who's one of the subjects of the new documentary "Quest." So what's your relationship with Price now? Are you still working together?
RAINEY: Actually, I just got off the phone with him before we got here. Yes, we are going to be doing something later on today, actually. We're going to go to a studio. Yeah, Price and I are - our relationship is really tight. He's like my little brother, so to speak. You know, I've seen him go up. And I've seen him go down. And I've seen - and now he's back up, and we're going to try to keep him there. He's working. He's taking care of his kids. Price is a special friend to me. Like, out of everybody that goes through problems, I can relate to his problems because I had those same problems before, too.
GROSS: You mentioned that in the clip that we just heard. What was your issue?
RAINEY: I was - I had two bad years of angel dust. I was smoking angel dust for two years. This was in the early '90s - '91, '92. It was a rough time in my life also. You know, actually, I was going through a bad breakup. And, you know, I was confused and hanging around with the wrong people. So, you know, it really - it took me two years. And what made me quit, really - reality was a kid walked up to me that I knew. And I spoke to him. I was like, hey, what's going on? And he was like, get out my face. I don't mess with you anymore. You get high. You ain't nobody to me. And that hurt me. It broke me because I was so used to being respected by everybody in the neighborhood.
When this young kid said that to me, it literally changed my life. I just literally stopped that day. I called my brother J.C., and I said, J.C., I don't want to get high anymore. What should I do? He sent a cab for me and brought me up to his house. And I just hung out with him for, like, six months, and, you know, that was the end of it. I got better.
DAVIES: Christopher Rainey and filmmaker Jonathan Olshefski speaking with Terry Gross. Olshefksi's film "Quest" focuses on Rainey and his family. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE ROOTS SONG, "SACRIFICE")
DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to Terry's conversation with filmmaker Jonathan Olshefski and Christopher Rainey, one of the subjects of his film "Quest," which will be broadcast Monday on the PBS series "POV."
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)
GROSS: So you have a daughter who is in the film. How old is she now?
RAINEY: P.J. is my youngest daughter. She is 18.
GROSS: And she was around 8 when the film starts?
RAINEY: Probably younger than that.
OLSHEFSKI: We first met probably about 7.
RAINEY: About 7, yeah.
GROSS: So while the documentary is being made, your daughter Patricia, P.J., is shot in the eye in the afternoon in the neighborhood. Tell us what you know about what happened.
RAINEY: Well, what I do know is that my daughter got shot by a stray bullet by, you know, guys arguing. From what I'm - from what the neighbor was telling us, they were arguing over a four-wheeler that somebody stole. So, you know, these are guys out here, neighborhood, you know, the neighborhood thugs, so to speak, just, you know, in the neighborhood. They actually didn't even live in our neighborhood. They were just down there, and they got into an argument with somebody in the close-by vicinity. And that's how P.J. got shot with a stray bullet. She was about a block and a half away. But when - like, to tell the whole story, when - I had actually came home from helping my cousin do a small job, odd job. And I went - I was in the house, and I was taking a shower. My wife said she was going to run across the street and go to the store. And so my wife had actually left out. My wife was in the store across the street. I'm in the shower. I hear the pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow. I said that was a lot of bullets. So I said, let me get out of the shower. I'm going to make sure my wife is OK because I know - I know she went to the store.
So I get out of the shower. As I'm going to - you know, go to the door, I put clothes on or whatever. She's coming in the door. She was like - I was like, did you hear those shots? She's like, yeah, I was right in the store. You know, I heard them. You know, they were like they went right by me, whatever the case may be. So not even two seconds later, we hear the banging on the door - bang, bang, bang. P.J.'s friend Portia (ph) - she's banging on the door. And she's screaming, P.J. got shot. Now, I wasn't all the way dressed. My wife - she had just came back from the store. We looking like ragtag. We just ran out the door. We didn't even turn around to look to see what was going on, to turn anything off. We just left. We just ran out. Where is she? We were running for her.
By the time I got there, you know, I was - I got on the scene. They're standing there. I run up to P.J., and I grab her. I'm asking her - is she OK? And the first thing she says to me, Dad, I'm sorry for getting shot. And it kind of, like, messed me up, her saying that. Like, how are you sorry for being shot, you know? Like, you can't help that. And, you know, I'm trying to see see if she's OK. And once I pull the jacket from her eye, I see she's squinting hard, but you could still see the blood pouring out. So I put the jacket back on her eye. That's when the officer pulls up. You know, I'm turning around. And I'm saying, my daughter just got shot. At first, he was nonchalant. Like, what's going on here? Because it was just a bunch of people standing around from his point of view. And I was like, my daughter got shot. And he was like, where? What daughter, you know? Who, you know? And I turned her around and I showed him. And once I showed him, it's like he instantly jumped into action.
He jumped in the car. I jumped in the back of the car with P.J. You know, he drove us to the hospital, like, in a blink of an eye. I really like to give my hat to Officer Mole (ph). I think the 22nd District. I really, you know, want to acknowledge him, you know, 17th and Montgomery police stations. Anyway, he got my daughter to the hospital. They stabilized her. And, you know, they told us that she was going to lose her eye right then and there. And, you know, they had to remove the bullet. And so they transfer her to Children's Hospital.
GROSS: Do you know anything more about who shot her? Was anybody ever identified?
RAINEY: Well, the neighborhood speaks. So the neighborhood said, you know, OK, we think this person did it. We think that person did it. But, you know, as far as detectives and things like that, no one ever found out who did it. The guys that did - like, were involved in that - some of those guys came to the studio.
GROSS: You know, I know that there are some neighborhoods that have kind of, like, no snitching...
GROSS: ...Kind of - I shouldn't say policy, but like a no-snitching understanding. Like, you don't name names when it comes to somebody who did something, even if you know who that person is.
GROSS: Did that happen with your daughter's shooting, do you think?
RAINEY: No. See, I'm old school. I'm going to be honest with you. Like, I'm really old school. Like, the reason why I started letting these kids come because I feel as though I was the one that understood them. I was from the streets, too. I was the rough guy that carried guns and did dumb stuff back in the day, too. So I felt as though I would be able to communicate with these guys. You know, the ones that everyone was scared to talk to, the ones that nobody wanted to approach - those are the ones that I invite to the studio. And, you know, there was a lot of talk about, you know, we can get this person. Or you want us to do something? And I'm like, for what? What is that going to solve? Or who are you going to get? And nobody knows who did what, you know? It was me now. I'm trying to keep the peace in the neighborhood.
And I made a clear post on Facebook. I'm not on the social media, Facebook, Instagram, all of them. We are not running from anybody. We're not hiding anything from anybody. If we knew who did it, you'd be locked up - point blank. You know, we have no problem turning you in. You know, so after that post that I made, it pretty much died down. You know, we didn't hear anything of it. Nobody talked about it ever again, you know?
GROSS: How did you deal with fear that your daughter could be hurt again? And I know you were very worried about protecting her other eye. So were you afraid to have her out on the street playing basketball, walking with friends, doing anything? You can become very overprotective or very worried after something like that happens.
RAINEY: Yeah. We kind of did start becoming overprotective, but she kind of put a stop to that herself. You know, P.J. - like, she's a go-getter. She's not going to let anything hold her back. So when we became, you know, overprotective about things and trying to help her do things, she kind of pushed us away. I'm OK, Dad. I'm OK, Mom. I can go to school by myself. I can do this by myself. You know, but she's so independent, she doesn't care. You know, like I say, she's a go-getter. And, you know, she's going to be fine. And I think we - you know, it was tragic.
GROSS: You could have lost her. Like you say in the film, if she had been, like, an inch away from where she was.
RAINEY: One step. Yeah, it was a .40 caliber that hit her in the eye. And that's fairly a large bullet. And that definitely - that would've killed anybody if it would've hit them. It's like, you know, God's intent that she's still here, and we just thank him every day.
GROSS: What was the relationship between you about whether, like, what and if to record during that period? Because when something tragic like that happens, that can be pretty private. You don't necessarily want to be on camera when you're in that state of upset.
OLSHEFSKI: Yeah. You know, I remember when I first heard that P.J. had gotten shot - and I was just devastated. I was actually in an airport in South Dakota, and my wife called me. And when I got back to Philadelphia, you know, Quest had been - you know, had gotten in touch with me. And I was just like, what can I do just as a friend, you know? How can I support you guys? What do you need? And, you know, from talking to Quest, he was like, grab your camera and come to the hospital. We want P.J. to know how strong she is. We want to try to make something good come out of this tragic situation. We don't want this to happen to any other kids.
And so when I first got to the hospital, I was just happy that she was alive. She's breathing. She was still P.J. Her personality was intact. She didn't have brain damage. And kind of, you know, as a filmmaker, you kind of just go into this zone of just trying to gather the material. And, you know, kind of, I think, the tragedy of kind of what happened to P.J. didn't really strike me until she came home from the hospital. And, you know, you sort of see this scene play out, you know, in the film.
You know, she's on the stoop, and neighbors are sort of trying to give her well wishes. And it makes her feel, you know, kind of self-conscious and embarrassed. And she goes into the house. And I also became self-conscious of me having the camera in those moments. And so after she had gone into that house, I'm filming her and her response to kind of the neighbors outside. And I was just like, well, what am I doing here? What does P.J. want in this moment? And I put...
GROSS: Did you ask her?
OLSHEFSKI: Oh, I put the camera down. I felt like I needed to, you know, just check in with her. And I put the camera down. I said, P.J. do you need me to get out of here, too? Do you need me to give you some space? And she's like, no, Jon, you're cool. I know you. And it was just, like, even from P.J. in that moment - was like, all right, dude. Get back to work. And we're doing this together. And yeah, I'll never forget it.
DAVIES: Jonathan Olshefski is a documentary filmmaker. Christopher Rainey, also known as Quest, and his family are the subjects of Olshefski's film "Quest." It airs Monday on the PBS series "POV." We'll hear more after a break. And we'll remember renowned war photographer David Douglas Duncan and D.J. Fontana, Elvis Presley's drummer. I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF GERALD CLAYTON'S "SOUL STOMP")
DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening to Terry's interview recorded in September with Christopher Rainey, also known as Quest, and Jonathan Olshefski. Quest are his family are the subject of Olshefski's documentary called "Quest," which airs Monday on the PBS series "POV." "Quest" was filmed over the course of nearly 10 years. Quest, his wife Christine'a Rainey and their daughter Patricia - or P.J. - live in a working-class and poor neighborhood in North Philadelphia. Quest has a hip-hop recording studio at home, where kids and adults from the neighborhood come to record. We watch P.J. grow into a teenager as the film progresses. We also watch her recover after being shot on the street and losing an eye. Terry, Quest and Olshefski were talking about P.J. being shot when we left off. Her next question is for Olshefski.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)
GROSS: Did your whole understanding of what the film was going to be and what the shape of it was going to be change after the shooting?
OLSHEFSKI: Yeah. I was trying to make a quiet portrait of a family. So it was about daily routines and, you know, breakfast and going to school and, you know, the studio and the paper route. But just then all of a sudden - like, I wasn't trying to make a dramatic film, you know? Then this really sensational moment happens. This incredibly dramatic moment happens. But I wanted to stay true to that original vision of reflecting the quiet moments of this family as a counterpoint, again, to the police tape, the sirens, the stuff that the evening news portrays, and I think, you know, wanted to kind of tell this really dramatic story but from a different angle than everyone else was sort of telling it.
GROSS: Quest, tell us more about why you asked Jonathan to turn on the camera while you were in the hospital.
RAINEY: I really felt that - like I said, my wife and I really talked about P.J.'s recovery, like, instantly. That was the first thing that came up, like, when we went home. And we couldn't think of a better way to get some, like, peace of mind because actually, it was like, OK, Jon, I want you to shoot this. But my intent wasn't like, OK, we're going to put it in the film. I really was like, you know what? Let's just concentrate more, like, on getting P.J. together and, like, letting her, you know, see, you know, where she came from.
But as we - as the filming started coming out, and we started seeing versions of it, it was like - it was almost like, OK, this is it. It made me feel empowered, you know, to see, you know, her get up and, you know, get out that bed and walk out that hospital, and when we were riding home, she'd tell me I'm getting on her nerves. You know, that empowered me, you know, to see that, you know, and to talk to her about it. There's - like, some nights when it first happened, she would just have these outbursts of, you know, about what happened to her - you know, the realization. And we would all stand around, just cry together - her, my wife and I, you know, and - because we don't know what to do but, you know, we know how strong she is. And we know - we hugged, and we talked about it.
And we discussed, you know, like, see, this is what we was talking about filming, P.J., so you could actually see. You know, you just going through the motions right now. But later on down the line, you're going to look back, and you're going to see how strong you were, you know? And it worked for us, you know? We flipped a coin with that, so to speak, because, like, everybody wanted to bring out the cameras. Everybody wanted to talk to her. Everybody had a solution. But it was only for a soundbite. Nobody really wanted to help her, it seemed, you know, or nobody was genuine about helping her.
Don't - and we knew Jonathan and his camera were more than just a camera and just somebody - you know, a director or somebody filming. He was a friend. So it was easier for us to communicate with him. Like, and to be honest with you, he was white, OK? So by him being white and being on the outside, it was like, OK, we could talk to somebody white and get an honest opinion from him about what do you - and, you know, he's in that, you know, field. What do you think they're going to do? Or what do you think people want to do with the cameras? And it was true. Like, just talking to him, like - these people wanted, like, soundbites.
GROSS: I'm going to ask you to talk about that dynamic a little bit more, about how, like, Jonathan's white.
RAINEY: Right, it's, like...
GROSS: So he has access to, like, the white world. So...
GROSS: ...In general.
RAINEY: So there's a lot of stuff he can do that we can't, you know, yeah.
GROSS: Like, yeah. Like what?
RAINEY: Like, he could communicate with people that we can't - like, people will take him more serious on a certain level when he talks to these people, you know, like, about the business. Like, they might come out and say, listen, we want to film P.J. And, you know, we want to take some soundbites - this, that. I would've talked to Jon.
Like, Jon, you know, these guys say they want to - you know, what do you think they going to do with it? And he's like, I don't know - use it for, you know, some Internet thing or whatever - this, that and the third. You know, so now I'm turning around, OK, so what do you guys want to do with it? You know, and they - no one actually had to - you know, they don't know. We're just going to - we just need you to sign this release, and we own your story.
And that's what we didn't want, you know? We didn't want a whole bunch of people coming in and just running out because there was no warmth. There was no communication. There was no honesty, you know, in everything that we're saying. But, you know, Jonathan brings that to the table when we talk. You know, I'm not saying he's my only white friend. But he's my closest friend, you know, that's not of my color. So when I communicate about situations like that, he's the most honest with me about those situations. We've done so much stuff together, you know, just hanging out. We like the same football team. I met his family. I met his father, you know?
It's not as strange as people would think - like, when people get to meet each other, and, like, it's always some kind of barrier between people, you know, of different races. There's always some kind of wall there or something - make you feel uncomfortable about saying certain words. But I don't feel that way when I'm around Jon. He doesn't - I don't think he feels that way when he's around us, you know?
GROSS: OK. So another thing I wanted to bring up that's shown in the movie is that your daughter P.J. - and this is, like, some time after she's shot. She has her new eye, which moves with the other eye, looks really good. And she's back doing the things that she does and everything. But she tells you that she's gay, and that seems like it's a big surprise to you and your wife and that you're concerned. So I'm wondering how that's working out for you as the parents now, if you're comfortable with that now.
RAINEY: Actually, we were actually comfortable the whole time. We kind of seen P.J. as being gay coming up because she only did boy stuff. And we started noticing that she was hanging around girls that were gay, like, long before she even mentioned it.
You know, my wife and I used to always say, you think she's going to be gay? I'm like, no, you know how teenagers go through a little pressure and stuff in their lives and things like that. And we would talk to her about it. And she would say, no, I'm not gay. No, they're just gay and, they're just my friends. Then one day she just came out, like, I'm gay. And I looked at my wife. And, you know, she looked at me. And I was like - in my head, I'm like, I knew it.
RAINEY: Like, you know? But I didn't say it. I just kind of smiled. But my wife already knew it and stuff. You know, so - and honestly speaking, P.J. is now - she is my thesaurus on things like that, like, because I really don't understand the life to this day. And like I said, I thought either you were gay or not. I didn't know about LGBTQ, you know, all the letters. I didn't understand how they work. I still have times where I might be talking to somebody that's transgender or gay. And I might say the wrong thing to them, but it's not on purpose. It's only because I don't know. I'm learning. There's no handbook for this, you know? So, you know, we all learn as we go along. So if I ever say anything that's out of context that doesn't seem right, it's only because I don't know. Teach me. Tell me. Show me. And I'll learn. That's the best way I can put it.
GROSS: That's a great attitude. Jonathan, how many years did you shoot footage for this film?
OLSHEFSKI: So 2006 was the - you know, started, you know, the photo project and then in 2007, started shooting video. So it's, like, 10 years, you know, and probably about 400 hours of footage by the end of it. But I can't think of a better time for this film to be out in the world than right now. So I think...
OLSHEFSKI: Because I think how polarized we are as a country. "Quest" is an invitation to connect - for anybody to see themselves in the Rainey family, to connect to the North Philadelphia community. And I think that we need that to sort of combat these narratives of division and fear that keep us apart. And I think that we need to listen to each other and dialogue and not be afraid of each other. And "Quest" is an invitation to connect.
GROSS: All right. I want to thank you both so much for talking with us. And good luck with the film.
RAINEY: Thank you.
OLSHEFSKI: Thanks so much.
DAVIES: Filmmaker Jonathan Olshefski and Christopher Rainey speaking with Terry Gross. Olshefski's film "Quest" focuses on Rainey and his family. It airs Monday on the PBS series "POV." And we have this update on the Rainey story. Their daughter P.J. is planning on entering Rowan University this fall. Coming up, we remember war photographer David Douglas Duncan. This is FRESH AIR.
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. David Douglas Duncan, one of America's most renowned war photographers, died last week in France at the age of 102. Duncan was a Marine officer and combat photographer during World War II where he shot photos of the U.S. assault on Okinawa while suspended in an acrylic tank under the wing of a P-38 fighter plane. His photos from the Korean conflict collected in a book called "This Is War!" often focused on the faces of American soldiers and Marines or, as Duncan put it, the look in the man's eyes who's taking his last puff on, perhaps, his last cigarette before he grabs his rifle and attacks an enemy position.
Duncan also covered the war in Vietnam, which he opposed. His collection of photos about the defense of the Marine base at Khe Sanh was called "I Protest!" Duncan also photographed art and developed a long-standing friendship with Pablo Picasso who became the subject of thousands of his photos. Terry spoke to David Douglas Duncan in 1990.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)
DAVID DOUGLAS DUNCAN: When I went to Korea, it was five years after the end of World War II. And I had been a Marine combat photographer in - you know, the fight up to the islands - up to Tokyo, up to Tokyo Bay, the surrender on board the Missouri. So I had a pretty fair idea of what combat was all about, and I'd been back in Japan for Life magazine doing a story on Japanese art, theater, architecture, everything. And the Korean War started on the 25 of June. Since I was the nearest Life photographer, it was logical I should go there. But the lucky thing was my experience.
So that when I started to shoot, I started from a running start. I didn't have to be indoctrinated. I knew what I was looking at, and I knew what I had felt during World War II. So I tried to translate that feeling into photographs that would reveal some of the feelings of the men in front of me. I always photographed Marines. I knew what they would do if I got hit. They'd get me out of there. So I was very much at home. It was a home environment. It seems strange you could say a home environment in combat, but it was very much a home environment. And, remember, I was also older than the guys in Korea and then much older by the time Vietnam came around. So - and they knew who I was. That's the - having survived other situations like that, I was well-known on the battlefield. And I was doing my job while they did their job. It was simple as that.
TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: Is there a photo from your Korean War series that still has the most emotional impact on you when you look at it?
DUNCAN: You know, once, I asked Pablo Picasso - whom I'd photographed many, many times and made several books on him - what was his favorite painting. And he shoved his hand up in front of my eyes and says, which is my favorite finger? It's all a part of him. So these photographs are all a part of me. I can't say that one's more of a favorite than another because each one relates to another kind of memory - another kind of man. Very few of these men in the book survived. So that - you're dealing with many emotions within me, and I tried to simplify that when I shot it. Just, what did he look like? What did he feel? And as I said some other place, I didn't know anything about what he was thinking. But I knew what I was thinking. So I try to make - I'm very subjective as a war photographer. I want to break your heart.
GROSS: I want to mention some of the photographs that I found just especially moving. One is a sequence of portraits of a Marine who - in the the first portrait, there's a...
DUNCAN: "A Letter To Hayworth" - he's in the foreground - an old Marine in the background talking him out of it - out of his crack up. There are four shots on the double-page.
GROSS: Yeah, actually that's it (laughter).
DUNCAN: That's right.
DUNCAN: Well, if you look at it very closely, you'll see something quite surprising that the only movement in that picture is in the change of expression in Leonard Hayworth's face, the guy in front of me - the Marine who had come back from the front line - which was about 25 feet away actually - trying to get more ammunition or a replacement for some of the men who had been wounded. A couple had been killed, and there was nothing. It was raining. Nothing, and he cracked up - really cracked up. And the old Marine saw him. He'd been wounded. He sat there and forgot his own wounds and talked Leonard out of it. He came from a lovely place called Deer Path, Ind. Could you imagine? He was killed about three weeks later.
GROSS: Another photograph I want to ask you about - this is toward the end of the book in a sequence of photographs of the Marines on retreat. There's a soldier...
DUNCAN: No, no. Wait a minute, wait a minute - they didn't retreat. They're coming down from the reservoir. That's on the border of Manchuria and North Korea. And when you retreat, you retreat from an enemy force of greater strength what's in front of you. You put them behind you and take off. It happens to be that there were more Chinese communist troopers in front of those Marines than behind them. They fought their way through. They didn't retreat. They fought their way out.
GROSS: Yeah. Well, in the photograph I'm thinking of, there's a soldier sitting on the hood of a jeep. There's a rifle on his lap. And the expression on his face, I think, will always stay with me. It looks like - well, it kind of looks like he looked into hell, and it left him numb.
DUNCAN: He was wounded and frozen and riding because only way to get him out. If you come out ambulatory, you've tied up a couple of guys. But at least there was still a jeep running, so he got on the hood of the jeep. But if you looked to your left - the viewers' left in that photograph - you'll see another Marine who was ambulatory - also wounded - and looking at him with sheer hatred. Can you imagine hating your friend? 'Cause a very - it's an animal factor of survival. It just happens. And the photograph, I think, nailed it down pretty well. But five minutes later, it might've changed completely. But that moment - the freezing, walking Marine would like to have had a lift on the hood of the jeep carrying out his friend.
GROSS: How cold was it?
DUNCAN: In the terms of a thermometer, it was about 40 below zero Fahrenheit. And in those days - that's 40 years ago. We didn't know about chill factor, but the wind was coming out of Siberia at about anywhere from 25 to 50 miles an hour. So I would imagine the chill factor was somewhere between 60 and 80 degrees below (laughter) - you know, sometimes it comes back. I can't think about it because I'm - the guy is freezing below zero Fahrenheit. It's really strange. It comes back and grabs you by the throat. And you're - I'm sitting here fiddling with a paper clip on top of your table in the studio. And I'm thinking about those guys of another life.
GROSS: Do - have people ever told you that they recognized a husband or a boyfriend or...
DUNCAN: I'm still getting letters 40 years later from one of those freezing Marines. And everybody from Army, Navy, Air Force, other Marines - I don't know exactly who he was. I know where he was. I know the date. It was taken the 9 of December just at dawn on the - just below the Yellow River. I know what the temperature was. I know many things, but I don't know - I didn't ask his name. But I got even - I was on a program a few days ago, and a call came in from Florida. And a woman was sure it was her husband, except I was sure that it wasn't because the lady calling identified her husband as having been in the Army. This guy was a Marine. It's impossible.
DUNCAN: But let me make one point.
DUNCAN: Except for the rare case where it doesn't seem to be injurious, I don't tell them. I let them think it's their husband or brother, father - father? No, could you imagine? That's 40 years ago.
DUNCAN: In fact, I got a call from a lady. I live in the south of France. I got a call a couple of months ago at midnight. She didn't realize how late it was where I live. And she was identifying her father who was a Marine, and he'd gotten the Medal of Honor - the highest decoration given by the military. But he was killed three days before I made that picture. So I told her so she would never be shattered when she discovered that I had been kidding her. So I didn't deceive her. The others, I'm not deceiving. I just don't disillusion them.
GROSS: What are the secrets of shooting in combat without becoming a target yourself?
DUNCAN: Well, you are a target of course. It's illogic (ph). You know, I'm just lucky. In fact, there's a shot there of Ike Fenton. Ike's a guy with a - someone said the thousand-yard stare looking over my my shoulder - Ike Fenton, the captain of the assault company up in the beginning. I tied up with him about a month later during the attack into Seoul, the second chapter of the book. And it had been a terrible night and very cold, strangely enough, for September. And I thought, shallow foxhole, a lot of stuff coming in. Our stuff being - that is rifle fire, little bit of machine gun and mortar. So you just try to stay as low as you can - very low profile. If you roll over, you might catch it on your shoulder. There's that shallow of a foxhole.
And it slacked off at dawn - a beautiful dawn, cold, and I stood up to stretch. And I thought I'd pulled a chest muscle, and I started to laugh and reached down and held his hand. I held up my fist. And he handled a .30-caliber machine gun. Slugged us - hit me in the chest. At the end of its flight, my dear, as far as it would go, and it hit me. And it dropped without even denting me - nothing. So you see - sometimes you're hit, it doesn't make any difference. Other times you get hit, and it does make a big difference. But I've been lucky. I've just been licked lightly. I've never been really hit, but the other guys around me - sure.
GROSS: Do you see these photographs as anti-war photos?
DUNCAN: You better believe it. That's why I so object to a politician calling these guys boys. Can you imagine? Some boys.
GROSS: Thank you very much for talking with us.
DUNCAN: Thank you for your hospitality.
DAVIES: War photographer David Douglas Duncan speaking with Terry Gross in 1990. Duncan died last week in France. He was 102. Coming up, we remember D.J. Fontana who was Elvis Presley's drummer. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF GABRIEL MERVINE'S "PEOPLE")
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. D.J. Fontana, the drummer on some of Elvis Presley's biggest hits like "Blue Suede Shoes," "Hound Dog" and "All Shook Up," died Wednesday in Nashville. He was 87. Fontana was the first drummer in Presley's band and played in it for 14 years on over 450 recordings. He appeared with Elvis during that legendary "Ed Sullivan Show" performance and in the movie "Jailhouse Rock." In 2009, D.J. Fontana was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Terry Gross spoke with him in 1987.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HOUND DOG")
ELVIS PRESLEY: (Singing) You ain't nothing but a hound dog, crying all the time. You ain't nothing but a hound dog, crying all the time. Well, you ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine. Well, they said you was high-classed.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: That has to be one of the famous - most famous drum rolls in history. Did you have that one planned?
D.J. FONTANA: We didn't ever plan anything. We never knew what was going to happen from one second to the other. And we'd go in the studio, just kind of fiddle around and find things, you know. And that's just one of those things that accidentally happened. There was no reason for it. I decided to put it in there. He said, Hey, that's great, do it every time, you know.
GROSS: I want to ask you about the Ed Sullivan appearance that you and Elvis Presley were on, the first - I guess it was a TV premier - national TV premiere of Elvis Presley. And we've all heard about how the camera people were told to just shoot him from the waist up.
FONTANA: They said that, but I didn't see any sense in it. I don't think anybody did.
GROSS: Well, what were you told behind the scenes about that?
FONTANA: They said it was vulgar, his gyrations. But he really didn't do anything, not compared to what they're doing now. He was a saint, you know. But the press, you know, they'll write anything that people tell them. And then you've got the churches behind you. And, you know, so you had to really kind of behave yourself, you know. But Elvis wouldn't have done anything to hurt anybody's feelings or the country, anything else. He didn't think it was wrong. He really didn't think it was wrong.
GROSS: You were one of the first groups to perform in front of a lot of screaming people. I think you had a lot of screamers long before the Beatles did.
FONTANA: Yeah. That was quite a few years back.
GROSS: How did that affect you as a drummer? You must have had to play really loud.
FONTANA: No, not really. He always worked us tight. Everybody was right up against each other. It was hard to hear a lot of times. But I know one time we went to the Cotton Bowl in Dallas. There was about 45,000 people. And back in those days, that's a lot of people. And we really couldn't hear him do a thing. And he took his microphone and went way out to the gate of the fence. And we were like in the middle of the arena on the 50-yard line.
So we was probably 75, a hundred foot from the fence and we couldn't hear a thing - and he couldn't, I'm sure. We only had three little pieces. But we knew by his movements, his hands, his feet, legs. We knew exactly where he was. So we had to watch him awfully close to find out where he was all the time.
GROSS: Some of those swiveling hips were probably cues to the band (laughter).
FONTANA: It was cues. See, when I was 15 years old, I was working strip acts down in Shreveport. So I learned to follow these people. So when he done all his moves, I learn to follow him 'cause I did not know where he was at.
GROSS: You appear in two of my personal favorite Elvis Presley moments. One is in "Jailhouse Rock."
FONTANA: That was a good movie.
GROSS: It's a great movie.
FONTANA: I enjoyed doing that movie.
GROSS: And also, you were in that terrific 1968 network special.
FONTANA: Special with the black suit.
GROSS: Yeah. He's wearing all leather and denim, as I remember.
FONTANA: It was hot.
GROSS: The costume was hot or the studio was hot?
FONTANA: Costume - that suit looked like it weighed a hundred pounds. And it was black leather. I mean, he was...
GROSS: It was tight (laughter).
FONTANA: I don't see how he didn't pass out, really, I mean, of course, with the lights and everything making it hotter.
GROSS: What was exciting about that special, though, is that it was a period when you thought, well, maybe he'd lost it musically. Maybe he was just going to be doing bland pop songs.
FONTANA: Well, he was worried about it. He was really, really concerned.
GROSS: About how he'd - what kind of reaction he'd get? how he had a reaction over a year
FONTANA: Yeah because he had been doing movies for 10 years. And when you're doing movies, people are played to applause and clap and, you know, raise king. You know, that's part of the job. So then he was a little concerned. And we went back to the dressing room. We was talking about it. He said, what do you think? I said, hey, go out there and do the same thing you've done for years and get the people on your side. He had a knack for doing that. He knew how - as young as he was, even in his earlier days, he knew how to get the people on his side somehow or another. I said, go out and do the same thing you've been doing for 15 to 20 years. He said, you think it'll work? I said, why not?
DAVIES: D.J. Fontana was Elvis Presley's drummer for 14 years. He died Wednesday. He was 87.
On Monday's show, John Prine talks with us about his life in music. His new album, "The Tree Of Forgiveness," is his first in 13 years. Prine's first album came out in 1971, when he was just 24 and working as a mailman. Several of those songs became classics, including "Angel From Montgomery," "Sam Stone" and "Paradise." Hope you can join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BLUE SUEDE SHOES")
PRESLEY: (Singing) Well, it's a one for the money, two for the show, three to get ready, now go, cat, go. But don't you step on my blue suede shoes. Well, you can do anything but stay off my blue suede shoes. Well, you can knock me down, step in my face, slander my name all over the place. We'll do anything that you want to do, but, honey, lay off of them shoes. And don't you step on my blue suede shoes. Well, you can do anything, but stay off my blue suede shoes. Let's go, cat.
DAVIES: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Today's engineer is Adam Staniszewski, (ph) with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. For Terry Gross, I'm Dave Davies.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.