'Pluribus' star Rhea Seehorn says no thanks to a world dictated by groupthink

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. Tim Curry, the British actor who starred in the original stage and movie versions of "The Rocky Horror Show" in the 1970s, died Tuesday. He was 80 years old. In "Rocky Horror," Curry played flamboyant extraterrestrial mad scientist Frank-N-Furter, who believed in sexual freedom and fluid sexual identities.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW")

TIM CURRY: (As Dr. Frank-N-Furter) Come up to the lab and see what's on the slab. I see you shiver with antici-pation.

BIANCULLI: The film "The Rocky Horror Picture Show," based on the hit London stage musical became a cult hit, and in midnight movie showings, Tim Curry's aggressively outrageous starring role found a loyal new audience. Fifty years later, "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" still figures in some local midnight screenings around the country, and a revival of the original stage musical continues its Broadway run through February. And though it was Tim Curry's most famous role, it was by no means his only one. He also played Pennywise in the original ABC miniseries version of Stephen King's "It," an uptight professor in the TV series "Kinsey," co-starred in the movies "Annie," "Clue" and "The Shout," joined the Muppets as Long John Silver in "Muppet Treasure Island" and played King Arthur in the original Broadway production of Monty Python's "Spamalot." And he recorded several rock albums in the 1970s and scored one hit in England with "I Do The Rock," a song that was very much of its time, and its time was 1979.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I DO THE ROCK")

CURRY: (Singing) John and Yoko farming beef, raising protein quota. Sometimes they make love and art inside the Dakota. Rodney's feeling sexy. Mick is really frightfully bold. Me, I do the only thing that stops me growing old. I do the Rock. I do the Rock Rock.

BIANCULLI: In addition to singing, Tim Curry also went into the recording studio as an actor, providing voices for such animated features as "The Rugrats Movie" and "The Wild Thornberrys." After he suffered a serious stroke in 2012, which confined him to a wheelchair, Curry relied on voice acting for the bulk of his roles the remainder of his career. Terry Gross spoke to Tim Curry in 2005, when he was about to star in the Broadway musical Monty Python's "Spamalot," playing King Arthur. The show was directed by Mike Nichols. Here's a song from the cast recording. This is a self-help spoof called "Find Your Grail."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FIND YOUR GRAIL")

CURRY: (As King Arthur, singing) When your life seems to drift, when we all need a lift, trim your sail. You won't fail. Find your Grail. Find your Grail. Life is really up to you. You must choose what you pursue. Set your mind on what to find.

SARA RAMIREZ: (Singing) And there's nothing you can't do, you can't do.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

TERRY GROSS: How did you get the part of King Arthur in "Spamalot"?

CURRY: Sort of sideways, really, I guess. I've known Eric Idle a long time, one of the original Pythons, and he now lives in Los Angeles, as do I. And so we see each other quite a bit. And, in fact, the summer before last, we were hoping to do a film together which he had written and was going to direct, which was a kind of demolition of every Miramax movie ever made, called "The Remains Of The Piano." And that never quite happened because the money...

(LAUGHTER)

CURRY: It's a good title, isn't it?

GROSS: Very good. Very good.

CURRY: I was going to play the Reverend Whoopsie. And Robin Williams was going to play Vanessa Redgrave in "Howards End."

GROSS: (Laughter).

CURRY: I loved his lines, which were stuff like, you, I haven't met you before. You shall have the teacup when I go. No, no. No, you shall have the grand piano. Oh, no. No. You shall have the house. So that never happened, but he said, I think it looks like we are finally going to get to do the musical version of "Monty Python And The Holy Grail," and we're going to call it "Spamalot." And first of all, I thought that was just terribly funny. But I also thought, oh, Well, you know, I'll believe it when it happens.' And then suddenly Mike Nichols was directing it, and they put David Hyde Pierce and Hank Azaria and I and a couple of other people on a plane from California, and we came into New York. And we sat down and read it with a bunch of other people from New York, some of whom are in the play. And it just went, like, gangbusters, and I guess the next day I was going to be King Arthur.

GROSS: So "Spamalot" incorporates some classic Monty Python bits in it that I assume a lot of people in the audience probably know by heart. What kind of response do you get when you get to the classic parts?

CURRY: It's quite interesting because the audience always sort of contains some core of Monty Python fans who see stuff coming, you know, and react with great whoops of joy and then settle down to see it unfold. I mean, they're hugely welcoming, and then they really want to see it happen. I mean, happily, they're not talking along with it, because that would, you know, need a spanking.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So...

CURRY: But they love it and they see it coming, and they are thrilled to see characters and sketches that they recognize.

GROSS: You knew the Monty Python material.

CURRY: Yes.

GROSS: And audience knows a lot of the Monty Python material.

CURRY: Yes.

GROSS: But do you know a lot of the early Nichols and May scripts?

CURRY: I do. I do. I was always a fan, and so it was sort of very interesting for me to work with him. And he has - first of all, every note that you ever get from Mike is preceded by, that was wonderful. That was wonderful. One small thing...

So you're given this enormous sort of sense of entitlement and then something tiny and completely accurate is lodged like a little sort of Navajo arrow in your brain. And his great note, I think, because I was playing it pretty broadly at the beginning, because so much of it is like something that we in England call pantomime and sort of is part of vaudeville really. And his first note and recurring note to me is, yes, that's great, you know. It's very funny. Now let's make it true. And I think that's his great gift to this material, is that he's given it a great big sort of beating Arthurian heart. And that's an extra dimension that you just sort of don't expect and, of course, also makes it so much more interesting to play.

BIANCULLI: Tim Curry speaking with Terry Gross in 2005. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2005 interview with Tim Curry. The star of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" died Tuesday at age 80. In "Rocky Horror," he played Frank-N-Furter, a mad scientist from another planet, self-described as a sweet transvestite from Transsexual, Transylvania. In this scene, he welcomes to his remote castle a stranded couple seeking help. They're played in this 1975 film by future stars Barry Bostwick as Brad and Susan Sarandon as Janet. Brad and Janet have entered the castle soaking wet, and Frank-N-Furter's assistants have stripped them down to their underclothes as Frank looks them over wickedly.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW")

CURRY: (As Dr. Frank-N-Furter) Magenta, Columbia, go and assist Riff Raff. I will entertain er...

BARRY BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors) Brad Majors. This is my fiancee, Janet Vice.

SUSAN SARANDON: (As Janet Weiss) Weiss.

BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors) Weiss?

SARANDON: (As Dr. Frank-N-Furter) Enchante.

BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors) Well...

CURRY: (As Dr. Frank-N-Furter) How nice, and what charming underclothes you both have. But here, put these on. They'll make you feel less vulnerable. It's not often we receive visitors here, let alone offer them hospitality.

BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors) Hospitality? All we wanted to do was to use your telephone, dammit, a reasonable request, which you've chosen to ignore.

SARANDON: (As Janet Weiss) Brad, don't be ungrateful.

BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors) Ungrateful.

CURRY: (As Dr. Frank-N-Furter) How forceful you are, Brad. Such a perfect specimen of manhood, so dominant.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: You know, like so many other of your fans, I first saw you in "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" in the '70s, and when you see somebody in a movie for the first time, it's sometimes hard to tell how good they are. You don't know - is this all they can do? Do they do other things, too? Is this what they're really like, or, you know, how much are they acting? And so I saw you - I guess it was probably like the late '80s, in "Wiseguy," the TV series.

CURRY: Yes.

GROSS: And you played a kind of Phil Spector-ish, brilliant but crazy record producer.

CURRY: That's right.

GROSS: And a great, really terrific performance, and that's, I think, when I really got the picture, wow, he's really good at doing all kinds of things. So...

CURRY: That's so nice. I mean, it's sort of important for me, because, you know, that first performance that sort of introduced me to everybody was so out there and so...

GROSS: I'll say. Yeah.

CURRY: ...Kind of outrageous that, you know, I was a very quiet boy for a while, you know, just to make sure that people got it, that, you know, that wasn't necessarily who I was.

GROSS: Was that because of...

CURRY: It was my first movie, you know.

GROSS: That was your first movie?

CURRY: Yeah.

GROSS: How did you get the part?

CURRY: I got the part because I used to work a great deal at a theater in London called The Royal Court, and I guess they have a little theater upstairs which seats about 60 people, and I did Brecht there, and I did a sort of Rudyard Kipling show there. And I guess the next show, I did a dreadful musical, a Marxist musical called "Give The Gaffers Time To Love You" with a director who kept saying, Barry, the second act just simply isn't Marxist enough.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CURRY: And that, of course, never even opened to the critics, but the next show coming in was this other musical called "The Rocky Horror Show." And originally, I played Frank-N-Furter as though he was German. (Impersonating German accent) I was Dr. Frank-N-Furter, and everything was very interesting and stupid.

And then one day I heard a woman on a bus saying, do you have house in town or a house in the country? And I thought, yes, he should sound like the queen.

GROSS: (Laughter) Oh, that's great.

CURRY: So he should sound like the queen. So - but that's how it happened, and it just started in this tiny theater, you know, and it just took off like a sort of rocket.

GROSS: Did you like the kind of cheap horror films that it in part parodied?

CURRY: Oh, absolutely. I mean, Richard's brilliance really was just, you know - it was really like reaching up a hand into the zeitgeist and just grabbing, you know, '50s horror movies, Sandra Dee, comic books and '50s rock 'n' roll and just hurling them all together with, you know, some fishnet tights thrown in. And the fishnet tights really, you know, came from a brilliant costume designer called Sue Blane, who I'd worked with before, actually, in a wonderful theater in Scotland called the Glasgow Citizens Theatre, where we did a production of "The Maids" where I wore exactly that corset.

GROSS: The Jean Genet part?

CURRY: Yeah, the Jean Genet play. I played Solange, and we bought the corset for three pounds off a barrow in the market in Glasgow and wore it back to front.

GROSS: That's funny, you'd be wearing for, like, this transgressive playwright Genet...

CURRY: Well, absolutely.

GROSS: ...And then this kind of parody of everything, "Rocky Horror."

CURRY: Absolutely.

GROSS: Well, there's probably nothing that can get you into character quickly like black bikini briefs, fishnet stockings, the garter belt, the corset, the whole thing.

CURRY: Well, absolutely. And that was a fairly late development. I mean, I had no idea it was going to be like that until, you know...

GROSS: You didn't when you accepted the part?

CURRY: No, no, no, no. No. I thought I'd be in a white lab coat, you know.

GROSS: So how did the whole thing...

CURRY: It was a bit of a shock.

GROSS: So how did it all evolve then?

CURRY: Well, it evolved 'cause it was much funnier that way. And, I mean, I thought the great gag about, you know, the way that we all looked was - and I've always said this to anybody who's ever asked me about playing Frank-N-Furter if they were playing it, you know - to just never think about it as drag, 'cause it's not. It's just what people wear in Transylvania.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CURRY: I mean, that's just what everybody wears in Transylvania. So just get over it, you know? It's truck driver drag. It's not about someone going boop-oop-a-doop. It's just what they happen to wear.

GROSS: I think the thing I found most amazing about the whole phenomenon of "Rocky Horror" was watching, like, the 12-year-olds outside the theater parading around in their transvestite clothes.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Because they were all - it was just, like, all these 12-year-olds outside the theater imitating you in your getup. And you had to just kind of ask yourself, what is going on here? What did the 12-year-olds make of it? I mean, are they going through some kind of gender thing, or do they just love the movie? Like, what is this about?

CURRY: I think it's all of the above, actually. I mean, I think, first of all, they loved the movie because it's daring. To pretty much everybody, it was daring at the time. Less daring now. To them, it's daring. And it's also, I think, you know, there are several reasons why it's endured the way that it has. It's a kind of rite of passage now, I think. And actually, first of all, it's a guaranteed weekend party to which you can go with or without a date and probably find one if you don't have one.

And it's also, I think, a chance for people to try on a few roles for size, you know, figure out - help them maybe figure out their own sexuality. I mean, I think that's probably taking it a little deeper than it needs to go, but I think it has had a useful purpose in that way. And I've certainly had some very interesting and moving mail from people who've said, you know, thanks (laughter) for helping me figure out who I was, you know, and that's very nice.

GROSS: Did you ever go to one of, like, the midnight screenings back in the '70s and watch the movie with the people who were reciting along? And when they would make a toast on screen, people would, like, throw toast, you know, at the screen.

CURRY: Yeah.

GROSS: And, you know, the whole bit. It became an incredibly participatory experience for the people who came to see it time and time again.

CURRY: I did go. I went a couple of times. Oddly enough, it started happening at the Waverly Theater.

GROSS: In Manhattan, in the Village.

CURRY: On Sixth Avenue in the Village. And, ironically, I was living a block behind it on Jones Street.

GROSS: Oh, you're kidding.

CURRY: So I would see on my way home all these people. And, you know, I got to know about it rather quickly because I was a neighbor.

GROSS: Wow.

CURRY: And finally, I went to see it. And in fact, I had to sort of call the theater because, you know, you could never get in. And I said, you know, I'm in it. And I'd really love to come and see it and get an eyeful. And the operator said, you're the third Tim Curry to call this week.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CURRY: So finally, I showed up. And they sort of believed me and took me in. And the word spread rather swiftly, and people were sort of coming up and touching me and running away and giggling. And it was a very, very peculiar experience. And then, finally, the usherette - I don't know what you call them, really; that's what they call them in England - came and sort of dragged me out of my seat and announced that I was an impostor and threw me out of the theater. Which is - (laughter).

GROSS: Wow.

CURRY: Which is quite funny, really. So I actually had...

GROSS: Did you protest?

CURRY: Well, I actually had my passport on me.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CURRY: And I pulled it out, and I said, still think I'm an impostor? And she said, oh, Mr. Curry, I'm so sorry. Please come back in. And I said, I wouldn't dream of coming back in.

(LAUGHTER)

CURRY: And I saw it once on the strip in LA because I was doing a gig there with my band when I was making records. And I took them up to the balcony to see it. And (laughter) I remember my drummer coming out and saying, we don't have to dress up like that, do we?

GROSS: (Laughter).

CURRY: And I said, no, you really don't. And I shan't be either. But it was odd. I mean, it's a very peculiar experience. I mean, the first person to actually shout back in the theater was David Bowie's first wife, Angie.

GROSS: Really?

CURRY: I remember when Bowie came. And he brought this huge entourage. And she was with him. And when Richard O'Brien was about to kill me, she shouted, no, no, don't do it. And so I guess she was one of the first people to sort of do that. And Marc Shaiman, who's the sort of famous composer now, was one of the first who actually talked back in the Waverly. I think he began it here in New York. And now, of course, it's everywhere.

BIANCULLI: Tim Curry speaking to Terry Gross in 2005. The actor died Tuesday at age 80. More of their conversation after a break. And we'll also revisit an interview with actress Rhea Seehorn, who's nominated for an Emmy for her starring role in the TV series "Pluribus." I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SWEET TRANSVESTITE")

CURRY: (As Frank-N-Furter, singing) How do you do? I see you've met my faithful handyman. He's just a little brought down because when you knocked, he thought you were the candy man. Don't get strung out by the way I look. Don't judge a book by its cover. I'm not much of a man by the light of day, but by night, I'm one hell of a lover. I'm just a sweet transvestite from Transexual, Transylvania. Let me show you around, maybe play you a sound. You look like you're both pretty groovy. Or if you want something visual that's not too abysmal, we could take in an old Steve Reeves movie.

BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors) I'm glad we caught you at home. Could we use your phone?

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. Tim Curry, star of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show," died Tuesday. He was 80 years old. We're remembering him by listening back to a conversation Terry had with him in 2005.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: Now, your father was a chaplain in the British navy.

CURRY: Yes.

GROSS: What did your parents think of your role in "Rocky Horror"?

CURRY: Well, he, alas, was dead, 'cause he died when I was 12.

GROSS: Oh.

CURRY: So he wasn't even aware that I was an actor even. I think my mother - who, you know, is really, like, one of those sort of "Monty Python" ladies, you know, (impersonating his mother) oh, I can't imagine what's going on, you know, who always had a hat. And since my first job in the theater was "Hair" and, you know...

GROSS: And you were probably naked in that, right?

CURRY: ...And I did appear naked in it, I think, you know, it was a relief to her that I actually was wearing clothes of any kind in "The Rocky Horror Show."

GROSS: At least you were covered by a corset and garters (laughter).

CURRY: She was happily unaware that part of the character, particularly of Frank-N-Furter at his most gracious, was based on her.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: In what way?

CURRY: Well, it was sort of her telephone voice, you know. (Impersonating his mother) Do you have any tattoos, Brad? My sister, when she saw it, fell on the floor and said, you know, does she know? and I said, no, she has absolutely no idea, and please don't tell her. She thought it was very, very amusing and brought all her friends. So she was a pretty hip lady, my mother, and she got it, I mean, you know, astonishingly. She loved it.

GROSS: That's really funny.

CURRY: She didn't like it as much as "The Pirates Of Penzance," which I did at Drury Lane, because the Queen Mother came to that and that, you know, was the total seal of approval of my career.

GROSS: And I would bet that the Queen Mother did not go to "Hair" or "Rocky Horror."

CURRY: I didn't think she went to either. Although, Princess Margaret did come to "Rocky Horror" and had a wonderful time.

GROSS: Really?

CURRY: And so did prince - and Princess Diana actually requested to meet me because she was such a "Rocky Horror" fan.

GROSS: So did you ever meet Princess Diana?

CURRY: I did actually meet Princess Diana. We - I was doing a production of "Love For Love," and it was taken to Vienna for British Week, and we played at the Burgtheater. And Prince Charles and Princess Diana were the guests of honor, and - which was when she said that she very much wanted to meet me, and so they sort of put me at the end of the receiving line. And Prince Charles said, (impersonating Prince Charles) I think I've seen you on television. Haven't I seen you on television? I said, yes, actually, you've seen me on television. (impersonating Prince Charles) Yes, I'd thought I'd seen you on television. But Diana said, you were in "The Rocky Horror Show." And I said, yes, ma'am, I was. I was, but I'm sure that you haven't seen it. She said, oh, yes. It quite completed my education.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CURRY: She was a very funny girl, and a very beautiful one and sort of the - a very wicked smile came with that sentence. She was great fun, and the world is poorer without her.

GROSS: You've done a lot of animated films and television series. How did that become such a central part of your work?

CURRY: Well, the animation thing happened kind of by accident. A very nice man called Gordon Hunt, who's the father of Helen Hunt, the actress, and a wonderful director, was directing animated cartoons at Hanna-Barbera. And they were doing a series of Bible stories, and he wanted me to play the snake. So I played the snake and had a lot of fun, and I said, look, you know, when the tour's over, I'm actually going to move to LA, and I'd love to do some more of this. And will you, you know, at least audition me for things when you have them?

And he did. He was very faithful. And he would just say, you know, come in and read, and I'd come in and read. And I started doing a lot of animation and loving it. And the great thing about it - I mean, apart from just the fun of it, is that, you know, if you're in Los Angeles, you know, waiting for movies, it can get very dull. And you can just, you know, show up to an animation studio and you don't have to look good, you don't have to be shaved or anything, and - you know, and you get to play all these people that you'd never, ever get to play in real life.

GROSS: So what are some of the voices you've done for these animations?

CURRY: Oh, all sorts of things. I did - (as Captain Hook) I did Captain Hook for "Peter Pan & The Pirates." I did (as Nigel Thornberry) Nigel Thornberry for "The Wild Thornberrys." And Nigel Thornberry is sort of an eccentric English explorer. I do Professor Calamitous in a show called "Jimmy Neutron," who's a terrible rip-off of Truman Capote basically. (As Professor Calamitous) He talks like that. And he's very tiny.

GROSS: Now, you grew up in England. Your father was a chaplain in the navy.

CURRY: Yeah.

GROSS: Were you religious when you were growing up?

CURRY: Rather not, as preachers' kids tend not to be, you know? I mean, my father was pretty chill about all of that. I mean, he wasn't - Methodism in England is a lot more relaxed than it is in the States. And it's not as forbidding or as chilly. And he was a very liberal and a very funny man. But, you know, I did willy-nilly show up, you know, to Sunday school morning and afternoon and went to hear him preach when he was onshore because he was quite often at sea. And I spent my childhood in sort of various sort of naval bases until - he died when I was quite young, when I was 12, and we moved to south London, and I went to boarding school.

GROSS: Did you have to go to church, and did you sing a lot in church?

CURRY: Well, that was the great bonus because the Methodist Church has a remarkable body of hymns, largely - a great number of them by Charles Wesley. And so I sang in church from about - I don't know - 6 or 7, and I was - you know, I was a real boy soprano for - you know, until my voice changed.

GROSS: It changed a lot, didn't it?

CURRY: It did change quite a whole lot. I was very lucky because there was - I had a great music teacher who sent away to Westminster Choral School for exercises when my voice started breaking because, you know, so often, people with wonderful soprano voices end up with no mature singing voices at all. And I managed to make that transition, happily.

And it's funny. When I was doing - I don't know whether this is interesting. When we were doing "Pirates Of Penzance" and I had my first singing lessons, really, the lady who was doing them said, you know, we must work on your falsetto and get your range up. And I said, I don't have a falsetto, and she said, oh, nonsense. Everyone has a falsetto. And I said, no, I really don't. And she made me find one. And she suddenly had this revelation one day and she said, were you a boy soprano? And I said, yes, I was. And she says, you're in mourning for that sound, aren't you? And I realized that I was. I mean, it is of great sadness not to be able to make that extraordinary pure sound that you do make as a boy soprano. And I guess I just...

GROSS: That's actually really interesting. Yeah.

CURRY: It is. It's fascinating, isn't it? I think I just, you know, cut off that alley, as it were.

GROSS: But you kept singing, didn't you?

CURRY: I kept singing, yes. Absolutely.

GROSS: So did you go to, like, the loud, gruff rock band kind of singing afterwards?

CURRY: Well, no, actually. I mean, you know, at 17 or 18, I was singing lieder and, you know, I was singing sort of classical music, really. But then I guess, you know, The Beatles happened, and it was all over.

GROSS: So what kind...

CURRY: That and Marlboro, you know?

GROSS: Marlboro cigarettes? Oh.

CURRY: It's funny, because I actually - yes. I actually quit smoking a year ago, and it was fascinating because within three weeks, my voice went back up a tone and a half, and I remembered - and I heard the voice that I remembered myself singing in when I was 19 or 20.

It's very odd and it's a great warning to anyone to stay away from the demon tobacco, stupid drug that it is.

GROSS: Did you always know that you had that ability to mimic?

CURRY: Yes, I think you know you have it or you don't. Hank, who - Azaria, who is...

GROSS: Hank Azaria.

CURRY: ...In this show, is an absolutely dazzling mimic - can do anybody. You sort of have an ear or you don't, I think. And I think, you know, a lot of it has to do with amusing other children when you're young and, you know, getting out of being hit.

GROSS: Right.

CURRY: (Laughter).

GROSS: Was that effective for you?

CURRY: I think it's effective for all childhood comedians. I think it's, you know, the root of a great deal of comedy.

BIANCULLI: Tim Curry speaking to Terry Gross in 2005. The star of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" died Tuesday. He was 80 years old. After a break, the Emmy Awards are coming up next month. We'll revisit an interview with Rhea Seehorn, who is nominated for her starring role in the new Vince Gilligan series "Pluribus." This is FRESH AIR.

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. The Emmy Awards are next month, and among the nominees is Rhea Seehorn. The former costar of "Better Call Saul" is nominated for her starring role in "Pluribus," the new Apple TV series created by Vince Gilligan. Gilligan also cocreated "Better Call Saul" and wrote "Pluribus" with Seehorn in mind. It's a wonderful series, and she's wonderful in the central role. In the powerful premiere episode, she was on screen almost the entire time, carrying much of the drama without dialogue.

"Pluribus" is a thrill ride that's the most fun if you don't know where it's going. But if you've seen it and want to know more, Terry Gross spoke with Rhea Seehorn last year about the series. She plays Carol, a writer of fantasy romance novels who's returning from a book reading event. She's accompanied by her manager and life partner, Helen, and they stop at a local bar. Everything seems normal. But suddenly everyone at and outside the bar, including Helen, has a sudden seizure. Only Carol is unaffected, as some people drop and die, while others become calm and happy and speak to Carol in unison.

Panicked, Carol finds her way home and turns on the TV for an explanation. The only channel that still works is C-SPAN, where a man standing behind the White House podium - not the president because he's dead - explains that a medical advance of extraterrestrial origin has connected most people on Earth through a sort of psychic glue. That's creepy enough. But what's even creepier is that the man on TV is addressing Carol directly and telling her that her immunity may be only a temporary condition.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "PLURIBUS")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Rest assured, Carol, we will figure out what makes you different.

RHEA SEEHORN: (As Carol Sturka) Figure it out why?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) So we can fix it. So you can join us.

SEEHORN: (As Carol Sturka) Oh, God.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Carol, you still there?

SEEHORN: (As Carol Sturka) You said my life was my own.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) It is, 100%.

SEEHORN: (As Carol Sturka) So what happens when I say no?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Carol, once you understand how wonderful this is...

(SOUNDBITE OF PHONE BEEPING)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Carol?

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TERRY GROSS: Rhea Seehorn, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love this series. I loved you on "Better Call Saul." It's really such a pleasure to have you on the show.

SEEHORN: Oh, my gosh, thank you. It is such a pleasure to be here.

GROSS: (Laughter) Thank you. The premise of this series is sci-fi. But the show itself is asking so many questions about human nature, like, what is happiness? Is it happiness if there's no longer a larger meaning to your life? And is being an individual with your own temperament and thoughts, is that more valuable than this happiness? And is anger lethal, or is it good to let out your anger and resist what you think is wrong? And, you know, maybe we'll find out some answers to those questions and many other questions later.

SEEHORN: (Laughter).

GROSS: But I just want people to know it's - there's some really interesting thoughts in this.

SEEHORN: Thank you.

GROSS: And did you find yourself asking - what is happiness? - as you made the series?

SEEHORN: Yeah. I definitely was asking myself (laughter) a lot of those questions throughout the series. And we had amazing conversations among the crew and the cast, you know, some of these late-night shoots and even on weekends. Stuff of, like, well, would you choose what's best for the individual versus what's best for the community as a whole? I personally think I would absolutely be Team Carol as far as arguing, you know, the necessity and the positives of individual thinking and independent thinking.

For one thing, a big thing that came up for me was the fact that this group think, no matter how intelligent and how peaceful - one of the ideas of happiness and joy, which maybe is slightly different, is being surprised by things, whether it's wonder growing up as a kid and, hopefully, still as an adult or a giant belly laugh. And if you cannot be surprised, there's never going to be any new art. There's never going to be a joke that you haven't heard. There's never going to be surprise behavior that makes you laugh. And that's just such a source of joy for me that I just can't imagine that contentment is the same as happiness.

GROSS: So the character in "Pluribus" was originally written for a man by Vince Gilligan. And then he decided to rewrite it for you. How did that happen?

SEEHORN: I don't believe there were scripts, you know, with a male character, and then he went back and rewrote. I think he said he was - ideas will pop in his head, sometimes questions without answers. And one of them was, what would happen if you woke up and the whole world was obsequious, the whole world was willing to do whatever you want it to and give you anything you want? And it was a male character. And he has said that it's just because that's second nature to him. He is a man, and he has written male protagonists.

And then I don't know the exact, like, shift that happened or where, but I didn't know about it until after we had wrapped all of "Better Call Saul." But he said it was during - I think towards the end of Season 1 of "Better Call Saul" that he was just watching me work and had talked to me a lot about the way I work as well as watching me perform and decided that - I'm stuttering because it's hard to say this because I'm floored by the compliment and the flattery, to put it mildly, and struggle saying it about myself.

But he said that he realized, like, I have to write something for her. I have to - I need to make sure that I do a project with her. And actually, wouldn't these concepts that I'm noodling with, wouldn't they work even better if they were her? And he knew that he also wanted to play with tone and take wild swings as far as, like, it could be darkly comedic or it could be darkly psychological. Sometimes it's going to, you know, go between, back and forth. And he was impressed at my ability to do those (laughter) things. It's so hard for me to say about myself.

GROSS: Stop bragging.

SEEHORN: (Laughter) That can be the title of this episode, "Rhea Seehorn Brags About Herself."

GROSS: (Laughter).

SEEHORN: Yeah, I don't know. Listen, I've had to sit next to him in interviews when he's saying it. And I'm just - my face is one giant tomato red ball when he's saying it. But I'm certainly very thankful for it (laughter).

BIANCULLI: Rhea Seehorn speaking to Terry Gross in 2025. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2025 interview with Rhea Seehorn, star of the Vince Gilligan TV series "Pluribus." At this point, they were discussing "Better Call Saul," the series cowritten by Gilligan and costarring Rhea Seehorn. Here's Terry introducing a clip from "Better Call Saul."

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GROSS: In "Better Call Saul," Seehorn played Kim Wexler, a lawyer who marries Jimmy McGill, an unethical lawyer who gets involved with a Mexican cartel, played by Bob Odenkirk. The series lasted six seasons, and while shooting an episode in that final season, Bob Odenkirk suffered a heart attack and collapsed on set. He had just completed shooting an intense scene with Seehorn that we're about to hear an excerpt of.

It's the scene in which Lalo, a cartel member, had just killed a colleague of Jimmy and Kim's - Howard Hamlin, played by Patrick Fabian. And the murder was in Jimmy and Kim's apartment, right in front of their eyes. They're frozen in fear, as Lalo then instructs Jimmy to go to the home of drug czar Gus Fring and kill him while Kim waits behind with Lalo. Jimmy insists that Kim be the one to go because he thinks it might be even more dangerous for Kim to stay with Lalo. Here's the scene. Tony Dalton as Lalo speaks first.

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TONY DALTON: (As Lalo) I know. I know. You're a lawyer and not a killer, but look. You can do this, OK? This guy - he's a house cat. Black, medium height, short hair, glasses. He kind of looks like a librarian. But don't be fooled. Even a house cat can scratch. So that's it. Hard part's over. Now you pull out the camera. Same principle as the gun - point and shoot. Take a picture, one where I can see the face clearly, and then you bring it back here, where me and Mrs. Goodman will be waiting for you. And then you're done. I'd say it's about a 20-minute drive over there, 20 minutes back, maybe 10 minutes to do the job. Let's call it an hour altogether. So you're back here in an hour or...

BOB ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) Send her.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) What?

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) She should do it.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Jimmy.

DALTON: (As Lalo) Why her?

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Don't do this. Don't do this.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) This guy, the house cat.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Jimmy, please.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) He looks through his peephole...

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Please.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) ...In the middle of the night and he sees me?

SEEHORN: (As Kim) What?

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) Who's this ass****? What's he doing?

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Jimmy, stop.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) Maybe he gets his gun. Maybe he calls the cops. Either way, that door stays shut. But he sees a woman. She looks like she's in...

SEEHORN: (As Kim) No.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) ...Distress. Maybe her car broke down. I mean, you'd open the door for her, wouldn't you?

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Stop. Stop.

DALTON: (As Lalo) Yeah, but she's really clever. How do I know she's going to stick to the plan?

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) She will.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) No, no, no, no. No.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) No cops. You know she will.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) No. Look, this doesn't even make any sense. I've never shot a gun before. I've never even held one.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) Like I have.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Jimmy, what are you doing?

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) You know she's the best choice.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) No, I'm not. I can't. I can't do it.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) She can do it. You know...

SEEHORN: (As Kim) No, Jimmy.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) ...She can do it.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) I'll stay.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) You know I'm right.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Stop. Just stop.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) Listen.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Stop it.

DALTON: (As Lalo) Oh my God.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Just shut up.

DALTON: (As Lalo) OK.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy) You want me to go?

DALTON: (As Lalo) Fine.

SEEHORN: (As Kim) Shut up.

DALTON: (As Lalo) Yeah, her.

GROSS: That was a scene from "Better Call Saul," right before the star Bob Odenkirk had his heart attack. Were you on set with him when this happened?

SEEHORN: Yes. So Jimmy and I - Bob and I are now being held captive on the couch. And we had been shooting the scene for maybe about 10 hours, and they tell actors when it's a big turnaround, meaning there's enough time to go to your trailer, 'cause this is a lot of equipment that's got to be moved. It's not a quick thing. But we didn't go to our trailers, which is another, like, thank God he didn't. If Bob had gone to his trailer and just passed out, which is what happened when this heart attack happened, he would have been dead by the time they knocked on the door. And that would be that. No one would have even known. He would have just passed out.

So we went down to that end and Bob was watching a Cubs game and chatting with us, also on his exercise bike, which he would do to stay just kind of alert instead of getting sleepy after hours and hours of shooting, which did not cause a heart attack. I have to say that his rebound from his heart attack was because he was in the best shape of his life from training for his film, "Nobody." But he and Patrick and I are just laughing and goofing off, and then Bob got off the bike and looked like he was going to faint. So we ran to catch him so his head wouldn't hit the concrete floor. And then we realized, oh, this is - this looks like either a seizure, a stroke or cardiac arrest, all of which we need medical attention. And so we started screaming for help.

And it took a beat, a horrifying, terrifying beat. And eventually, a set medic was there, a different set medic that had just started. Then Rosa Estrada came over. And it turned out that they couldn't get his heart to start, and they needed a defibrillator. And Rosa ran to her car and got it, and they brought it back, and they were able to revive him. And then the ambulance came. But yeah, Patrick and I were - (laughter) we wouldn't let go of him either. They just kept having to tell us, like, yeah, you can't be holding onto him while he's being electrocuted. But that was - it was very hard to let go of your friend for a second in that moment.

GROSS: I'm glad you have such vivid memories of this, 'cause, like, when I interviewed Bob Odenkirk, he had no memory of it.

SEEHORN: He has none.

GROSS: Yeah.

SEEHORN: He has none.

GROSS: And so...

SEEHORN: When we went back to shoot, that - we had to finish that shoot months later. And Bob has no memory of the entire day, not just the event, but the entire day. And they showed him footage so that he would know where he was sitting. And I go - I said, remember - now do you remember that day, 'cause we were shooting this all day? And he looks at me and laughing, and he said, it is like I am watching an impostor in my body do a scene that I have never done in my entire life. And I was like wow.

GROSS: What a strange feeling that must have been.

SEEHORN: Isn't that crazy?

GROSS: Yeah.

SEEHORN: It's just, like, yeah, he has no memory of it at all. We had to tell him multiple times after he woke up in the hospital.

BIANCULLI: Rhea Seehorn, star of "Pluribus" speaking to Terry Gross in 2025. "Pluribus" is nominated for 18 Emmys, including one for Seehorn as outstanding lead actress in a drama series. The Emmys are scheduled for September 14.

On Monday's show, why do Americans spend so much time waiting - on hold, in waiting rooms, filling out paperwork? Journalist Annie Lowrey calls it the time tax, and she says the difficulty is often the point. She talks about who designed the system, who profits when you give up and what it would take to get our time back. Her new book is "The Time Tax." Hope you can join us.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Julian Herzfeld and Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our social media video producer is Hilary Kissinger. For Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, I'm David Bianculli.

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