'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was inspired by a 'love affair' with musicals

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #1: (As characters, singing) S-C-H-M-I-G-A-D-O-O-N - Schmigadoon.

(CHEERING)

BIANCULLI: Earlier this week, the musical "Schmigadoon!" opened on Broadway to lots of applause and rave reviews. The New York Times called it a blast, which it is. I saw it in previews last Friday and loved it. It's also a blast from the past, a warmhearted embrace and spoof of classic Broadway musicals, from "Oklahoma!" and "The Sound Of Music" to "Carousel" and "The Music Man." The title "Schmigadoon!" is a play on another musical classic, "Brigadoon," in which two tourists stumble upon a magical village with its own eccentric inhabitants and rules. In "Schmigadoon!" the tourists are a loving couple, Josh and Melissa. They're in love, but after a few years of living together, they're also in kind of a rut.

"Schmigadoon!" originated in 2021 as a six-part miniseries on Apple TV+ co-created by Cinco Paul and Ken Daurio. Cinco Paul, who wrote the music, lyrics and book for the Broadway version, has reshaped and condensed those six TV episodes into one night of theater but has retained all the key songs, characters and plot twists. The original TV version began when the two doctors, Melissa and Josh, met-cute at a hospital vending machine, then jumped into bed. On Broadway, the vending machine turns into a bed, a clever transition that saves time and makes the same point, only funnier. Director and choreographer Christopher Gattelli also choreographed the TV version, so everything I loved about the full-ensemble staging of such infectiously giddy numbers as "Corn Puddin'" has arrived on Broadway in tact. "Corn Puddin'," which sets the tone early in the show, is confident in the way it both echoes and winks at old musical conventions, and that confidence is well earned. "Corn Puddin'" won an Emmy for Paul that year for outstanding original music and lyrics. On Broadway, Josh is played by Alex Brightman, a Tony nominee for his starring stage roles in "Beetlejuice" and "School Of Rock." Melissa is played by Sara Chase from TV's "Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt." Their comic timing together is flawless, and the supporting cast features a lot of standards.

The Apple TV+ version of "Schmigadoon!" was divided into two different six-episode seasons. When they premiered, I raved about both. In Season 1, to which the Broadway musical closely adheres, Josh and Melissa happen upon a mysterious land but can't leave it until they find true love. When first they cross that magical bridge into Schmigadoon, the townspeople instantly prepare to greet them by dancing and singing. Melissa, who grew up loving musicals, is delighted. Josh is not. On TV, Melissa was played by Cecily Strong and Josh was played by Keegan-Michael Key.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

KEEGAN-MICHAEL KEY: (As Josh Skinner) OK, what is this?

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) And why is music coming from everywhere?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing) Welcome to our little town.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing) Where friends are all you meet.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character, singing) And you will never see a frown.

AMITAI MARMORSTEIN: (As Pete) Hey, everyone.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #2: (As characters) Hey there, Pete. (Singing) We bet you're probably wondering what we call the most beautiful, wonderful, magical place of all.

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) What - what is happening?

CECILY STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) It must be something they do for tourists, like Colonial Williamsburg.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BIANCULLI: The second season of "Schmigadoon!" ran two years later, featuring most of the cast members returning in different roles. The twist was that when Melissa and Josh return to Schmigadoon, it's now populated by the next generation of musicals, typified by echoes of "Sweet Charity," "Chicago," "Hair," and "Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber Of Fleet Street." The second season was called "Schmicago," and it featured the same cast, most of them in new roles, which the Broadway production could blaze a new trail by emulating. There's no reason Broadway's new hit musical in time shouldn't have a sequel ready and waiting in the wings with cast members from "Schmigadoon!" ready to sign up for "Schmicago" - not, for example, with songs like "Do We Shock You?" in which the ladies at a nightclub line up onstage as in Bob Fosse's "Sweet Charity" to sing some provocative lyrics, although Josh and Melissa in the audience are anything but outraged.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGAGOON!")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #3: (As characters, singing) Do we shock you, make you ill at ease? Do we offend your tender sensibilities? There's no norm we won't transgress. Look; there's a man, and he's wearing a dress.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) I mean, I've literally seen every season of "Drag Race," so...

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #3: (As characters, singing) Do we scare you? Are you too refined?

BIANCULLI: In time, "Schmicago" may make the transition to Broadway, just as "Schmigadoon!" has, but for now, you can get tickets to "Schmigadoon!" or watch both seasons on Apple TV. Meanwhile, here's an interview Terry Gross conducted with Cinco Paul when the TV musical first premiered. Back in 2021, when he spoke with Terry, Paul had written all the songs for the TV version of "Schmigadoon!" and had co-created and co-written the series with his writing partner, Ken Daurio. Previously, the two of them had written the animated films "Despicable Me," "The Secret Life Of Pets" and the Dr. Seuss adaptations "Horton Hears A Who!" and "The Lorax."

In the original TV version of "Schmigadoon!" the small town of the title looks like a stage or movie set from the early 20th century. The women are wearing prairie dresses with long petticoats and the men are dressed like they're in a barbershop quartet. It turns out that in this town, life is a musical. Let's pick up on the scene in which Melissa and Josh, played by Cecily Strong and Keegan-Michael Key, first encounter the townspeople of Schmigadoon. The people start singing about the town, which makes Melissa smile and Josh cringe. See if you can guess which musical inspired this particular number.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #2: (As characters, singing) Schmigadoon, where the sun shines bright from July to June and the air's as sweet as a macaroon - Schmigadoon. Schmigadoon, where it's warm and safe as a new cocoon and our hearts all glow like a harvest moon - Schmigadoon. Schmigadoon.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #4: (As characters, singing) Where the men are men and the cows are cows.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #5: (As characters, singing) And the farmers smile as they push their plows.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #2: (As characters, singing) And the trees are tall, and we call it Schmigadoon.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #5: (As character, singing) Our schoolmarm is Emma Tate. She helps our kids to punctuate.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character, singing) Still unmarried at 28.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #4: (As character, singing) In Schmigadoon. Farmer McDonough craved a son...

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TERRY GROSS: Cinco Paul, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for creating this series (laughter).

CINCO PAUL: Oh (laughter), thank you for having me.

GROSS: How did you come up with the idea of a musical about people trapped in a musical set in the early 20th century?

PAUL: Well, it's kind of crazy. I had the idea for this almost 25 years ago, and it was while I was watching the movie "An American Werewolf In London," of all things - one of my favorite movies. And it opens with, you know, two friends hiking through the wilderness, and they're hiking over the countryside. And I suddenly thought, wow, the opening to this is very much like the opening to "Brigadoon." And then I thought, what if these two modern guys, instead of stumbling on a town that has a werewolf, stumbled on a town that was in a musical? And that was the germ of the idea, but I didn't really know what to do with it, so it was one of those that I just filed away. But what really cracked it for me was, oh, instead of two friends, it should be a couple so that it is more of a romantic comedy and it can be more about, what does love mean? What's true love really mean? I think that's why for 25 years nothing happened with it, because it was - it needed that addition to really crack it.

GROSS: So the Cecily Strong character loves musicals. The Keegan-Michael Key character hates musicals. Why did you want him to hate musicals?

PAUL: Well, I thought it was really important. I mean, first of all, it's really funny to have someone who hates musicals be stuck in a musical, but also for him to be the eyes and ears of the people, unlike me, who don't love musicals. And in many ways, that was Ken, and in many ways, it's my wife, you know, that...

GROSS: Oh, boy. You're trapped.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: I'll tell you, we - Ken and I, you know, played music all the time when we were writing. And whenever a musical theater song would somehow pop up in my mix, he would say, skip.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: So it was really important for the show to have that perspective.

GROSS: Some musicals have really corny scenes in them. And the kind of scene that always bores me is the picnic scene, where it's like, this was a real nice clambake; I'm really glad we came. It's like, can we skip that? (Laughter) Can we skip that and get to the good stuff? And I never really understand the function that they serve. And you kind of have a song parodying that called "Corn Puddin'."

PAUL: Yes.

GROSS: And so the reason why they're singing about corn pudding is it's their first morning in town, and they're sitting on the porch and about to have breakfast. And they're asked if they want some corn puddin', and they don't even know what corn puddin' is. And then the town just starts singing about how great corn puddin' is. So I'd like you to talk a little bit about what you think of those moments in musicals where you have to sing about food or a picnic or a clambake.

PAUL: (Laughter) Yeah, I mean, "Corn Puddin'" came out of - initially, I was thinking, you know, what is the song that is most going to annoy Keegan's character?

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: What would be the worst possible song to subject him to, you know? And it's just, oh, a song just about food, and "Corn Puddin'" suddenly came to me as just that it's kind of the perfect representation of these sort of songs like "It's A Real Nice Clambake" (ph). Like, who cares? Like, you know?

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: The songs really should move the story forward in some way. And I think that the worst example is "Shipoopi" from "Music Man," which is - it brings everything to a grinding halt, and then this Marcellus character is just singing this nonsense song that has nothing to do with anything. And so that's what "Corn Puddin'" is. It's an ode to those songs. But the fun thing is that, ironically, in our show, it does move the story forward because this stupid song gets Keegan to say, OK, we're leaving. We're not going to spend another minute in this town.

GROSS: Why don't we hear "Corn Puddin'"? And we'll also hear the Cecily Strong character kind of join in in a verse, much to the Keegan-Michael Key character's annoyance.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #2: (As characters, singing) My guy loves corn puddin'. I got the recipe. So if he wants my puddin', he'll have to marry me. Oh, he'll have to marry me. You put the corn in the puddin' and the puddin' in the bowl. You put the bowl in the belly 'cause it's good for the soul. You put the corn in the puddin' and the puddin' in the bowl. You put the bowl in the belly 'cause it's good for the soul.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character, singing) Who wants corn puddin'?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #2: (As characters, singing) We want corn puddin'.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character, singing) Who wants corn puddin'?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #2: (As characters, singing) We want corn puddin'.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) I think they want us to take a verse.

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) I'm not singing, and you're not singing.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) Come on. Could be fun.

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) No. Do not.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble, singing) Never had corn puddin'.

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) Why?

STRONG: (As Melissa, singing) And it may be a waste, but if you've got some extry (ph)...

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) Extry?

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble, singing) ...I sure would like a taste.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #2: (As characters, singing) Oh, she sure would like a taste. Corn, corn, corn, corn, corn puddin'. Yum.

GROSS: The music is kind of like a hoedown.

PAUL: Yes.

GROSS: And it just reminded me, too, that when I was in school, we had to learn some of that kind of dancing - you know, like, square dancing.

PAUL: Yeah. That was part of the curriculum somehow.

GROSS: Yeah. I was like, why are we learning this? We live in Brooklyn. Like, what are you thinking?

PAUL: (Laughter).

BIANCULLI: Cinco Paul speaking to Terry Gross in 2021. He wrote all the songs for the satirical TV musical "Schmigadoon!" which he also co-created and co-wrote. Paul wrote the book, music and lyrics for the current production of "Schmigadoon!" now on Broadway. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with Cinco Paul, who wrote all the songs for the TV series "Schmigadoon!" He also co-created and co-wrote the series.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: I want to get to another song. We all know that so many performers on Broadway historically have been gay, and it's only in recent years that they've been able to be out. And it's only recently that are - there are actually musicals about gay people who are out of the closet. So you have a few really funny references to, like, closeted gay people in musicals. One of the really funny songs - the mayor, who's played by Alan Cumming, is secretly gay, and it's a secret he's never disclosed to anybody. And he sings a song that kind of is a "Secret Love" kind of song. But...

PAUL: Yes, where he inadvertently reveals to Cecily's character that he's gay.

GROSS: Because she has gaydar, and no one in the town does.

PAUL: Yes. Exactly.

GROSS: But the mayor's wife sings a song that's called "He's A Queer One, That Man Of Mine." She has no clue that he's gay, but she knows that, you know, he's different from the other men. And usually in those songs, that's like, he's wonderful. He's so different from other men. But in this one, it's kind of like, hmm. He's so different than other men. I want you to talk about writing this 'cause this is an example of a song that I don't think closely adheres to another song. It's a kind of - there's references to other songs in it, including "You're A Queer One, Julie Jordan." That's from "Carousel," right?

PAUL: That's from "Carousel." Yeah.

GROSS: Yeah. So - but talk about writing this and what you wanted to do with it.

PAUL: Yeah. I mean, to me, there is a trope in these musicals often. There's a song called "Something Wonderful" from "King And I" and another song from "Carousel" called "What's The Use Of Wond'rin'" - you know, these women who sing songs where, you know, he has maybe these flaws, but I still love him, you know? And so I wanted to play with that. But this is a song where she has no clue that her husband is gay, but everything that is evidence that he's gay she sees as a really positive quality. Like, he doesn't look at other women.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: You know, and for her, it's all these really positive qualities. But also, really, in many ways, the mayor's story is at the heart of the show 'cause he is one of these characters that, back in the day, could only be queercoded, you know? But because we have modern characters in "Schmigadoon!" now and Cecily's character really likes to get involved in people's lives, she helps push him to, you know, proclaim to the whole town who he really is. And Alan does such an amazing job with this character and really gives him depth and heart in a way that elevates it even beyond, you know, what I'd hoped he'd bring.

GROSS: Yeah. He's great in it. This clip will start with Cecily Strong speaking. And I should say that the mayor's last name is Menlove.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Another little clue. OK. So here's "He's A Queer One," and this is Ann Harada singing.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) Mrs. Menlove, forgive me for asking, but how much do you really know about your husband?

ANN HARADA: (As Florence Menlove) That's a good question. He's a hard man to know, it seems - different.

(Singing) Some men like to fight and curse. They smoke and drink and yell, leave you flat or, even worse, they stay and make life hell. But my man is gentle, as soft and sentimental as any lace adorned a valentine. He's a queer one, that man o' mine.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) Oh, honey.

HARADA: (As Florence Menlove, singing) Some men stumble home at dark, want dinner and dessert. Other men have eyes that spark at every passing skirt. But my man loves cooking. I've never caught him looking at other gals more young, petite or fine. He's a queer one, that man o' mine.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) This was literally me in high school.

HARADA: (As Florence Menlove, singing) Show me any other man more tender or expressive. I only wish that nightly, he were slightly more aggressive.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) There it is.

HARADA: (As Florence Menlove, singing) Sometimes it may seem like he is too good to be true, like there's a man that I can't see just aching to break through. I wish I could free him so I could finally see him the way he truly is and let him shine. He's a queer one, that mine o' mine.

GROSS: That's music from "Schmigadoon!" - the loving satire of '40s and early 1950s musicals. And my guest, Cinco Paul, co-created the series, co-wrote it and wrote all the songs. That's really - it's a funny song, but it's also - it's a lovely song. It's a nice melody.

PAUL: Yeah. I mean, that was the intention. I never wanted the songs to be too jokey, if that makes sense. You know, I really wanted them like, oh, that could genuinely have been a song sung in an undiscovered Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. And then it ends in a very - you know, Ann does an amazing job with the song. And it ends in a really sweet spot - right? - where she sort of wishes he could be who he really is. She suspects that he's not being his true self. She doesn't know what that actually means, but she really wishes the best for him and loves him.

BIANCULLI: Cinco Paul speaking to Terry Gross in 2021. Coming up, we'll continue their conversation, and film critic Justin Chang reviews the new film "Blue Heron." I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LOVERS' SPAT")

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. Please, no song. I'll do anything.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) Yeah. Guys, we're actually in the middle of something.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character, vocalizing).

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #7: (As character, singing) You can't plow a field without hitting some stones.

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. "Schmigadoon!" is a TV series that is a loving parody of stage and screen musicals of a bygone era. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with Cinco Paul, who wrote all the songs for "Schmigadoon!" He also co-created and co-wrote the series, which you can stream on Apple TV. Paul wrote the book, music and lyrics for the current production of "Schmigadoon!" now on Broadway. Along with his writing partner Ken Daurio, Paul wrote the animated films "Despicable Me," "The Secret Life Of Pets" and the Dr. Seuss adaptations "Horton Hears A Who!" and "The Lorax." Here's Terry.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: How were you first exposed to musicals? Like, where did you grow up? Did you see music theater? Was this all through movies?

PAUL: I grew up in Phoenix, Arizona, so I didn't see a lot of shows live. But my mom really loved musicals, and she had cast recordings for - I specifically remember "Camelot," you know, loving, as a pretty young kid and listening to that. I was a weird kid, you know, singing "I Wonder What The King Is Doing Tonight" in my room...

GROSS: (Laughter).

PAUL: ...Memorizing (laughter) the lyrics. But I remember, you know, "Camelot" and "South Pacific" and "Guys And Dolls" and hearing those a lot. And so that's really - that's when my love affair with musicals began. But also, I remember seeing "Singin' In The Rain" for the first time as a kid and Donald O'Connor doing "Make Him Laugh." And I thought that was the greatest thing I'd ever seen in my life. It was so funny, and I just loved it. So that's really where it began when I was a kid.

And then I think a real key moment was - I think I was 14 and was asked to play piano for my high school's musical. And it was "How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying." And that really changed everything because then, suddenly, that became my tribe - you know, the theater kids. And they embraced me. And, you know, I desperately wanted to be onstage. But probably because I didn't really belong there, they kept saying, no, but, Cinco, we need you on the piano. Please continue playing piano for us. But that's really where it deepened into something different. It became my community, you know?

GROSS: Did you want to continue in the musical community? 'Cause that's not the direction you went in until now.

PAUL: You know, in college, I always sort of - you know, I wanted to be onstage. And so in college, I tried out for several musicals and didn't get in. And I did end up playing piano for a bunch of them. And so at some point, I realized, well, maybe that's not my thing. And then I was really interested in being a pop musician. You know, I'd always written songs from a pretty early age. And so I think - there was maybe a sense that, well, musical theater isn't cool, and I want to be Elvis Costello, you know? And so that's what I focused - but people would continually tell me, oh, that sounds like something from a musical.

GROSS: (Laughter).

PAUL: And I was really offended. I'd say, like, what are you talking about? This is rock and roll, you know? And so I think life was telling me that that's where I belonged. But - and then I - you know, life is just weird. You get - we make little choices, and it pulls you in different directions. And I got pulled into screenwriting and then ended up writing all these animated movies. And I sort of set that part of me aside for a while.

GROSS: Can you sing a few bars of one of your Elvis Costello-ish songs?

PAUL: (Laughter) Oh, my goodness. Let's see.

(Singing) Of man's last mistake and woman's first hurt to the final heartache, from a fall to flirt - I won't forgive and forget anymore.

Oh, my gosh. I haven't sung that song since I was, like, 19. That's a Cinco Paul classic called "Forgive And Forget."

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So you had a band?

PAUL: Yeah, kind - you know, I had a band in high school. But it was kind of, like, me just forcing them to accompany me for all my songs.

GROSS: (Laughter).

PAUL: So it wasn't a true band in the real sense. And then I just would do solo stuff, you know? I learned to play a bunch of instruments, and then I'd go into the recording studio and make albums. And really, that was kind of my dream. You know, I wanted to be Elvis Costello, Randy Newman, Paul McCartney - you know, all my heroes. And there was a point where I realized - I got married, and we were expecting our first child. And we were in North Carolina at the time. My wife was in med school. And the plan was always, after med school, we'll go to LA and I'll pursue my music career. But with impending fatherhood upon me, suddenly I started to really question, like, what is that going to be? And is that the life I want? So I got the idea to apply to film school. And I always felt very safe in academic settings, so I thought, I'll apply to film school. And if I get into USC or UCLA, that'll mean, you know, that maybe that's the direction my career should go. And I got into USC. And that kind of changed everything and got me on the screenwriting track as opposed to the pop musician track.

GROSS: Now, we left something out of your music career - your early music career. You're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints, which most people, I think, know as the Mormon Church. Your mother was a part of the church. Your father was Catholic, but not practicing. And you got baptized, I think, after - right before or right after graduating from Yale.

PAUL: No, right - yeah, right before I headed off to college. Yeah.

GROSS: OK. And there was a musical celebrating the 150th anniversary of the church, and I think you wrote the songs for that.

PAUL: I wrote everything. I wrote the book and the music and lyrics for that. It was about a modern girl and her great-great-great-grandmother, who was a pioneer girl, who switch places.

GROSS: Gosh. That's almost a little bit like "Schmigadoon!" where the modern and the past are colliding.

PAUL: I know. I feel like maybe I've been writing the same thing over and over my whole career.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So what was - was it a comedy? Was it serious? Was it...

PAUL: Yeah. It was comedy, which was, you know, sort of very different. Usually, these productions are pretty serious, you know, and reverential and a funny look at - you know? This - it was two fish-out-of-water scenarios, right? They both switch places with each other. But, you know, it was only a couple performances, but it was really well-received. And the biggest thing that happened in that was that's where I met my writing partner, Ken Daurio. He auditioned and was in the show. He, unlike me, is someone who belongs onstage. And we became friends. We formed a band. And then at some point I said, let's write a script together. And that changed everything.

GROSS: But getting back to the musical that you did for the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints, what was the reaction in the church to the musical?

PAUL: Everybody really liked it. It got a bunch of laughs 'cause I think people just weren't used to seeing one of these productions and have it be, really, a comedy at its heart. And so they actually - like, seven years later, they revived it (laughter). So I've had a revival of a musical.

GROSS: (Laughter).

PAUL: And they did it again seven years later, but haven't done it since then. It's just sort of been languishing.

BIANCULLI: Cinco Paul speaking with Terry Gross in 2021. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with Cinco Paul about "Schmigadoon!" - the musical comedy series he co-created and co-wrote. He also wrote all the songs. Paul wrote the book, music and lyrics for the current production of "Schmigadoon!" now on Broadway. Along with his writing partner Ken Daurio, Paul wrote the animated films "Despicable Me," "The Secret Life Of Pets" and the Dr. Seuss adaptations "Horton Hears A Who!" and "The Lorax."

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: So you and your writing partner, Ken Daurio, used to sing your pitches when you were pitching a film idea. So please, you must sing one of your pitches.

PAUL: Well - see, that - I mean, we wouldn't sing the pitch, right? We wouldn't say, (singing) this is a story about a guy - you know? - (singing) who is, you know, in trouble with the law. No. It - what - that would be a nightmare. We would have been kicked out of everybody's office. But we would sing in our pitches, like, if there were a musical moment, and we would often put a musical moment in our stories. So it was a moment - you know, I guess you'd call it non-diegetic, when people are singing as part of the story. So we would generally sing that.

GROSS: Can you give us an example?

PAUL: There was - we were pitching our take on a movie called "Car Wars" about two rival car dealers. And one becomes friends with the other. And so he would sing to him, (singing) you are so beautiful to me.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: And so it was kind of a shtick we'd do. So I would generally sing to Ken, and Ken would play the person being very uncomfortable with being sung to. And then I would sing the song to him. And we'd sort of play off the comedy of that, which I guess is, in many ways, a lot of the comedy that's in "Schmigadoon!" But it was fun because I would always push it further than we had ever done in rehearsal during the actual pitch meeting. And we would play with each other in that way. There was a lot of improv, you know, in our pitches because we had a partner there. And so that's often how the musical part of it would play out.

GROSS: Let me ask you about "Despicable Me." And this is a character who's competing to be the worst villain in the world. And he's not that great of a villain, really.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So he's going to try to steal the moon. And what he's done is, like, you know, he stole a replica of the Eiffel Tower and a replica...

PAUL: And the Statue of Liberty from Vegas.

GROSS: ...Of the Statue of Liberty. Yeah, a replica from Vegas, a - like, a souvenir, basically. How did you come up with the idea for this?

PAUL: Well, the original idea came from a Spanish animator named Sergio Pablos, who had pitched Chris Meledandri the idea of a villain who adopted three little girls in order to pull off a heist. And so Chris then pitched that to me and Ken, and instantly, we fell in love with the idea. And it was really the broadest of concepts, I think, that Sergio would come up with. And so then it was up to us to flesh it out and, you know, come up with - 'cause I don't think the moon was part of that story. And so that's where it started. But then, you know, it was our job to write the complete story and come up with all the characters.

GROSS: And you created the Minions, which are these, like, animated henchmen. Would you describe what they look like for anyone who hasn't seen the film?

PAUL: (Laughter) If there are people out there who have not, you know, been exposed to Minions, you know, more power to you.

GROSS: (Laughter) Yeah. They kind of took over.

PAUL: They're, like, these little yellow pill-like creatures that have goggles on either their two or one, you know, single eyes. And they wear blue overalls. And really, I have to give up much of the credit for the Minions to Pierre Coffin, who is the director. And he really came up with that design and the concept. Ken and I wrote that Gru had Minions, but it was really Pierre who came up with the concept. And he does all the voices for the Minions as well.

GROSS: Was there a whole lot of Minions merch?

PAUL: It's interesting. When the first movie came out, we couldn't get anyone to, you know, make toys or anything. They, like, tried everywhere, and no one was interested. And then suddenly, the movie came out and, you know, was a surprise hit, and the Minions took off. And then suddenly, you know, everybody was knocking down their door. But initially, it's funny. We could - no one was interested. But now they're everywhere, unfortunately. My apologies.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Does that make more money than the movie even does?

PAUL: I don't know 'cause, you know, we don't see any of that money in animation.

GROSS: You don't see the merch money?

PAUL: No.

GROSS: Wow.

PAUL: It's - we don't get residuals from the movies in animation. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine. And it's - I feel like it's unfair and not right because it takes as much work to write an animated movie - it takes more, actually, than to write a live-action movie. But you're not protected by the Writers Guild, so...

GROSS: Why is that? Why aren't you in the Writers Guild?

PAUL: It's a long story. But really, you know, when animation started out, they didn't have writers, and so it's never fallen under the auspices of the Writers Guild. There's people pushing for it and trying to make it happen, and I think in TV animation, they've gotten more power for animation writers. But it's one of those things that if the studio doesn't have to give it, they won't. And so you can imagine there's a lot of money that Ken and I could have gotten from these movies that we have not because we don't get residuals.

GROSS: Wow. That's just really shocking to me. I had no idea. Is that one of the reasons why you're kind of done for now with animation?

PAUL: Not really 'cause - I know it sounds super corny, but it really was never about the money for me, you know? But for me, it was just, you know, we were doing all these sequels. And I just was not interested in that and really wanted to stretch some other muscles, particularly the songwriting muscle. And so that's really why I decided to leave.

GROSS: What are some of the movies and some of the cartoons that you grew up with?

PAUL: The first cartoon I saw that really impacted me, I think, was "The Jungle Book." I loved that movie so much, and the songs in that are so good. And then I have to say the Marx Brothers have played a huge role in my life. I'm sure that's why I ended up writing movies. I saw my first Marx Brothers movie when I was 10 on TV, and I fell in love with the Marx Brothers and became obsessed. And that really led to my love of movies and reading about movies and then starting to make my own with our family's Super 8 camera, which we'd gotten for home movies, you know, on vacation. And suddenly, I used it just to make movies with all the neighborhood kids.

GROSS: You love movies, and you and your writing partner, Ken Daurio, have a podcast. Is it still going on, your podcast?

PAUL: Yeah. It's called "Make Him Watch It," and we make each other watch a movie we've never seen before.

GROSS: Then you have a couple episodes where you share your opinions of films of the '80s and films of the '90s. But I want to play the theme song from this because I think it's you and Ken actually singing the song.

PAUL: It is. I wrote the song.

GROSS: Oh, you wrote the song. And so in the spirit of turning your life into a musical, I just want to play the opening theme from your podcast, "Make Him Watch It."

(SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "MAKE HIM WATCH IT")

KEN DAURIO AND CINCO PAUL: (Singing) Make him watch it. Make him watch it.

PAUL: (Singing) There's lots of movies Ken hasn't seen.

KEN DAURIO: (Singing) Some Cinco hasn't seen, too.

PAUL: (Singing) So now that there's COVID-19...

DAURIO AND PAUL: (Singing) Here's what we're going to do. We're going to make him watch it for a podcast. We can't wait to make him watch it - with Cinco and Ken.

GROSS: I really love that. It's so, like, vaudeville era. Did you...

PAUL: (Laughter) Yes.

GROSS: How were you introduced to music of that period?

PAUL: I mean, it probably came from my love of the Marx Brothers, you know? And, you know, their - a lot of their movies were kind of musicals - you know, "The Cocoanuts," "Animal Crackers." "Horse Feathers" has a lot of songs in it. So I think that led to my love of these 1920s songs - you know, the Tin Pan Alley stuff. And from the time - I was a weird little kid, Terry, I have to say.

GROSS: (Laughter).

PAUL: Like, to be a 10- or 11-year-old kid obsessed with that sort of music was very odd. But I just - I loved it from an early age.

GROSS: Well, listen. Congratulations on "Schmigadoon!" Please do a Season 2. And it's been great to talk with you.

PAUL: From your mouth to God's ears. And, Terry, I have to say, it is so meaningful to me that you like the show and that you responded to it like this. Thank you so much.

BIANCULLI: Cinco Paul speaking with Terry Gross in 2021. You can stream both seasons of "Schmigadoon!" on Apple TV. Paul wrote the book, music and lyrics for the current production of "Schmigadoon!" now on Broadway. After a break, Justin Chang reviews the new film "Blue Heron." This is FRESH AIR.

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. Our film critic Justin Chang recommends "Blue Heron," the first feature from the writer/director Sophy Romvari. It's a semi-autobiographical drama that touches on Romvari's childhood in British Columbia and her family's experience of tragedy. The film has won numerous prizes at international film festivals and is now playing in select U.S. theaters. Here is Justin's review.

JUSTIN CHANG, BYLINE: There have been countless coming-of-age movies about the summer that changed everything - a season marked by a move to a new town, a fleeting but memorable romance or a shattering crisis. It's not easy to make a film in this vein that feels fresh or personal. But the Canadian writer-director Sophy Romvari has somehow done both with her exquisite, achingly sad debut feature, "Blue Heron." It's based on events from her own life, which she previously explored in her 2020 documentary short, "Still Processing." That title could just as well have applied to "Blue Heron," in which she peers back into her past and tries to make sense of what she finds.

Most of the story takes place over one summer in the late 1990s. Eight-year-old Sasha, played by Eylul Guven, has just moved with her Hungarian immigrant parents and three older brothers to a small town on Vancouver Island. Life here is idyllic in many ways. The island is beautiful and peaceful, and Sasha enjoys spending time outdoors with her family and making new friends. But a cloud hovers over everything and seems to darken as the summer goes on.

Sasha's oldest brother, Jeremy, played by Edik Beddoes, isn't adjusting well to the move, to put it mildly. He's peevish with his parents and siblings and acts out in ways that range from annoying to dangerous. He climbs up on the roof. He wanders off without telling anyone. He shoplifts and gets arrested. In one relatively mild instance of misbehavior, Jeremy lies down on the front porch one afternoon, keeping so still that a neighbor calls the house, alarmed that he might be dead.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BLUE HERON")

ADAM TOMPA: (As Father) No. No, I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm with you. Yes. Yeah.

IRINGO RETI: (As Mother) Who was that?

TOMPA: (As Father) Jason from across the street. He wanted to let us know that our son is dead on the front step.

RETI: (As Mother, speaking Hungarian).

TOMPA: (As Father) I told him we are aware and not to worry. He will come back to life soon.

CHANG: Sasha's parents are sensitively played by Adam Tompa and Iringo Reti, who show us a loving marriage that's come under all kinds of strain. There's Jeremy, of course, but there are also the challenges of settling into a new home in a still fairly new country. Sasha's father spends a lot of time working on his computer, and his wife is frustrated at having to do most of the housework and child-rearing. But Romvari doesn't exaggerate these pressure points. Nor does she overplay Jeremy's behavior.

The film is meticulous about showing the family's genuinely happy times, including those rare moments when Jeremy cracks a smile and comes out of his shell. It's as if Romvari wants to be fair to Jeremy, to not let his diagnosis of oppositional defiant disorder define him. In time, though, as Jeremy keeps acting out, the situation becomes untenable. And a social worker, one of many professionals brought in to help, recommends that Jeremy be sent away.

In its dramatic restraint and psychological insight, "Blue Heron" reminded me of two exceptional recent films about parents and kids - "Aftersun" and "Janet Planet," both of which were also partly inspired by their directors' childhoods. Romvari's film is the most carefully constructed memory piece I've seen in some time. You get the sense that she's trying to put together what she remembers as precisely as she can, right down to the clunky '90s Windows interface on Sasha's dad's computer.

Romvari treats the camera as an instrument of subjectivity. For the most part, we see mainly what Sasha sees and how she sees it. Key moments are glimpsed from odd, oblique angles. Events that Sasha never witnessed or perhaps forgot are not dramatized at all. At times, the camera pans idly from left to right, a movement that simulates the act of sifting through the past. At roughly the halfway mark, "Blue Heron" makes a daring leap. Suddenly, we are following an older version of Sasha played by Amy Zimmer, who is now, like Romvari, a filmmaker, keen to make sense of her family history. But the way she goes about it triggers a surprising twist that gently toys with our sense of time and reality.

In asking what she or anyone could have done differently, Romvari laments the imperfections of memory, the effects of mental illness and the limitations of even the most loving family. This beautiful and perceptive film feels like something summoned from deep within her consciousness and piped directly into ours.

BIANCULLI: Film critic Justin Chang reviewed the new film "Blue Heron" by Sophy Romvari.

On Monday's show, actor, writer and carpenter Nick Offerman. He stars in the new critically acclaimed TV show "Margo's Got Money Troubles," based on the popular book of the same name. Offerman won an Emmy Award for his work on the series "The Last Of Us," and he's best known for playing Ron Swanson on the comedy "Parks And Recreation." I hope you can join us.

To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/thisisfreshair. We're rolling out new videos with in-studio guests, behind-the-scenes shorts and iconic interviews from the archive.

(SOUNDBITE OF REAL ESTATE SONG, "BEACH COMBER")

BIANCULLI: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our senior producer today is Thea Chaloner. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper.

For Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, I'm David Bianculli.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BEACH COMBER")

REAL ESTATE: (Singing) Pensacola beach. You keep repeating while you're waiting for that sound, apparatus to the ground.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.