Samin Nosrat once shunned recipes. Now she's sharing them

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Food writer Samin Nosrat has a new cookbook called "Good Things." She spoke with our managing producer Sam Briger. Here's Sam.

SAM BRIGER, BYLINE: When I first spoke to Samin Nosrat in 2018, her career could not have been going better. Her 2017 book about cooking, "Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat," had been a triumph. People calling it the best cookbook of the year, the best cookbook of the century so far. It was decidedly not a book of recipes. Instead, it wanted to teach you how to become a confident enough cook that you didn't need recipes. If you had enough of an understanding about those four elements - and I'll say them again, salt, fat, acid and heat - and how they work together, then you'd be able to look in the pantry, check out what you had in the fridge and make something delicious without following someone's step-by-step instructions.

Samin Nosrat had learned to do this herself first at the famous Berkeley restaurant Chez Panisse, where she worked her way up from being a busser to working in the kitchen as a cook. Her book led to a four-episode Netflix show where we follow the delightful Samin, who has become one of those celebrities that people feel they're on a first name basis with, exploring those four elements in various food cultures, Japan, Italy, Mexico and the United States.

From there, she went on to write as a columnist for The New York Times. And from the outside, it looked like everything was going right for Samin Nosrat. However, in her new book, Nosrat describes how at this time when she should've been feeling happy about her success, all she felt was emptiness, which during the pandemic led to a debilitating clinical depression and a desire to recalibrate her life, to find meaning in a way that wasn't about work. Still, she was trying to write a new book, one that went through many versions and finally ended up as this one, "Good Things: Recipes And Rituals To Share With People You Love." And, yes, as the subtitle reveals, it does have recipes in it.

SAMIN NOSRAT: (Laughter).

BRIGER: Even as Nosrat says in her introduction that she hates them. Samin Nosrat, welcome back to FRESH AIR.

NOSRAT: Oh, Sam, thanks for having me back.

BRIGER: So in your book, as we said, you write that you hate recipes and that writing a book full of recipes felt like a betrayal. So first of all, why the hate on recipes?

NOSRAT: (Laughter) You know, basically, I feel like they trap us. Or people can get trapped in a recipe and feel so bound to the written letter and to following them to the letter, and that that's the only way to do it or that's the only way forward. They feel really constraining. And that constraint hurts my heart because a joke that I say and a lot of the cooks I know say is kind of like, there's only seven recipes in the world. There's only seven or eight ways people cook things all around the world. And so if you can sort of zoom way out and see how all the things are connected, you can understand how, you know, a braise is a stew, is a tagine, is - you know? Like, simmered meat for tacos is the same as, like, a delicious pot of sukiyaki.

So all around the world, people are doing the same thing. And that's not by accident. It's because there just are a certain number of ways to cook things that result in deliciousness. And that was my goal. That's always my goal is to show how all of those things are connected and to show you how you have so much more power and knowledge than you think you do. And also, (laughter) the truth is that people, I've realized, need some hand holding. And my dream is to zoom you out to, like, the big picture view. But sometimes the big picture view can be really overwhelming is what I've learned. And so I think this is almost an act of service. The way I view making recipes is something I can do that can be of use to the greatest number of people.

BRIGER: Well, you say the practice of cooking is a way to touch infinity. And making your focaccia recipe, I think I got to have a sense of what the infinite was, but I don't think that's what you mean.

NOSRAT: Oh, you know that that's - I'm quoting Yo-Yo Ma in an interview with Terry Gross that I heard on FRESH AIR.

BRIGER: Ah. I think I've heard of her.

NOSRAT: Yeah (laughter). And it was such a moving thing that he was talking about, because she was asking him about playing the Bach concertos just over and over and over again over the course of his life and even making three recordings of it. And she basically was like, how is it you don't get bored? And he gave this beautiful answer about how he doesn't view it as doing the same thing over and over again. He views it as sort of this, like, flowing stream that he steps in and out of.

And he's like, and if we can sort of view things like that, then we can actually touch infinity. We can be part of some greater whole. And that was so beautiful to me. And I listened to that at a moment when I was really agonizing about how to convey what it is that I hope that cooking or following a recipe can give us. And that's what I mean, you know? And, sure, yeah, you're touching, like, very soft, fluffy focaccia dough. But...

BRIGER: Well, I just meant that it took a long time to make, that's all.

(LAUGHTER)

NOSRAT: Oh, like it's infinity in a different way?

BRIGER: Yeah, exactly.

NOSRAT: The measure of infinity is different.

BRIGER: Yeah, exactly.

NOSRAT: But I do think, like - and this is also not to say, like, I'm some, you know, Buddhist monk in the kitchen who's constantly connected to this larger thing.

BRIGER: Right. Well, because you're probably cooking, like, all the time. You're not - I think there's, like, an art with a capital A, and then cooking sometimes oftentimes people think of as a few levels down as sometimes a more utilitarian thing. Sometimes you just have to make yourself a peanut butter and jelly to get through the day.

NOSRAT: Totally. And I have to say, as I have moved out of professional kitchens, the greater, you know, share of my cooking is the ladder, is the utilitarian and just getting myself fed, getting myself and the people around me fed. But occasionally, at least once or twice a week, I will sort of clear a little time, and more than time, just mental space and sort of try to enter that headspace of this is for - this is an opportunity to connect to something bigger and take this thing that can feel like a chore or is a chore and find some beauty in it.

BRIGER: OK, so how did you reconcile this ambivalence about writing a book of recipes? You had an epiphany, as I think we all do, while eating coleslaw.

NOSRAT: Yes. Yeah (laughter). So, you know, I was very stubbornly sort of like, I will never do this. And somebody had suggested to me. You should just write a book of recipes. You make things so complicated for yourself. You don't need to every time you write a book, like, redefine the genre.

BRIGER: (Laughter).

NOSRAT: Everything doesn't have to be this, like, major philosophical tome. And, you know, I kind of got mad at her. I was like, do you even know me? I would never do that. And then just about a week later, I was making sort of this cabbage slaw with this, like, very gingery sesame miso dressing that was so good and so easy and reminded me kind of, of, like, the hippie ginger slaws of my youth(laughter). But also, just like, I had pushed all the flavors to the max. So it was, like, super gingery, super salty, super acidic, super spicy and just, like, tingled every bit of yumminess in my mouth. And I just stood there thinking, wow, this is so delicious and so simple. And if only I had, like, an easy way to share this with people.

(LAUGHTER)

NOSRAT: And then I was like, uh-oh, (laughter) I guess that's a recipe.

BRIGER: If you're just joining us, we're speaking with Samin Nosrat, whose new book is called "Good Things." More after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BOOKER T. AND THE M.G.'S "GREEN ONIONS")

BRIGER: This is FRESH AIR. Our guest is Samin Nosrat, who has a new book called "Good Things: Recipes And Rituals To Share With People You Love."

You say that you've always had an unbridled enthusiasm for things that others might consider useless. One is aquafaba. What is that?

NOSRAT: Aquafaba is the, like, cooking liquid that sort of is produced - the by-product of cooking beans. And...

BRIGER: Any beans?

NOSRAT: Any beans. But specifically, the one that I - the type that I like to use in my cooking and I find the most useful is the chickpea cooking liquid or the white bean cooking liquid, largely because it's neutral in color. It's not - you know, like, black bean cooking liquid can be kind of dark.

BRIGER: And so what do you do with it?

NOSRAT: I view it as kind of liquid gold. Bean liquid I think of as, yeah, liquid gold. Please do not throw it away because it's an incredible sort of substitute for egg whites, or you can think of it as a thickener, an incredible sort of thickener in sauces. And even, like - I don't particularly do this - but you can use it as an egg substitute in baking, in things like brownies, or you can even whip it like a meringue and make a meringue or meringue-type dessert out of it. It's kind of a more recent sort of, I would say, discovery culinarily. I think in 2015 is when the term aquafaba was given to this substance. And it was in - it was sort of given by a bunch of, like, Latin-loving nerds on an internet forum. And that was definitely a moment in sort of this, like, molecular gastronomy, gastronomical science, where people were doing all sorts of interesting innovation. And I'm sure actually, now that I think of it, for probably decades before, vegans around the world had figured this out. But I think that was around the time that it made it into sort of professional kitchens and then since then has come into other recipes.

And so for me, I've kind of had a love affair with it over the last several years because as I get older, like, you know, one of the things that sort of defines me as a person and certainly as a cook and an eater is, like, my love of eating (laughter). I love to eat. I take such joy in it and so much sensory pleasure. And I have always sort of just, like, thrown myself, like, face-first into food. Like, truly, I can't eat without getting food all over my face and my clothes. And so (laughter) I just - I, like, eat, like a little kid still. And I just - I - if something's good, I want as much of it as possible. But as I get older, my body, you know, just takes longer to digest, and I spend more of my energy and just existence digesting. And that can feel sometimes uncomfortable if I eat too much heavy food. So I don't necessarily, like, want to give up my love of eating. I just want to try and figure out how do I eat things that - where I don't feel like I'm, like, bloated and I'm going to die at all times.

BRIGER: (Laughter).

NOSRAT: And so as a person who loves very creamy dressings, like, creamy salad dressings - you know, like, I love Caesar salad dressing or ranch or whatever - I kind of set out to create some dressings that were not as dairy-heavy or egg-heavy. And aquafaba became a big part of that...

BRIGER: Helps you do that.

NOSRAT: ...Experimentation.

BRIGER: Yeah. Now, I hate to admit to you that I don't cook my own beans. I use cans of beans. Could I...

NOSRAT: Oh, me too.

BRIGER: ...Use that liquid from a can of chickpeas?

NOSRAT: Absolutely.

BRIGER: That works just as well.

NOSRAT: Yes. Never throw away canned chickpea liquid.

BRIGER: OK.

NOSRAT: And - never, never. I insist (laughter). And in fact, what happened with me was I got so sort of dependent on the canned chickpea liquid and I tested so many of the recipes for the book with the canned chickpeas, that then I had an overabundance of chickpeas...

(LAUGHTER)

NOSRAT: ...Which is why then I came up with some recipes to use up all your chickpeas.

BRIGER: So can you just store it in the fridge? Like, you take one of those yogurt containers and put it in there, and then it can sit in the fridge for a while.

NOSRAT: Exactly. And it'll stay good for about a week or so. And you could probably even freeze it. I've never tried that, but there's no reason why that would not work. But if you're cranking out the aquafaba dressings (imitating clicking sound), like I'm saying...

(LAUGHTER)

NOSRAT: ...You'll be just fine.

BRIGER: I like that audible winking.

NOSRAT: Yeah.

BRIGER: (Imitating clicking sound).

NOSRAT: Yeah, yeah (laughter).

BRIGER: That's good.

NOSRAT: Another trick, actually, for using it up that I love is - I had to cut this recipe from the book. But here I was with, like, loads of aquafaba...

BRIGER: Yeah.

NOSRAT: ...For all these years and doing all these kind of weird things with it and experimenting with it. And so at one point, I was like, oh, what if I whip the aquafaba into, like, a meringue-like texture, and I fold it back into my hummus instead of adding other, like, chickpea water? Would I get a different texture? And you do. You get this incredibly light, almost mousse-like hummus that's so creamy and so light, that's really delicious. So I didn't include it in the book, but that's another way you could use up your own aquafaba, too.

BRIGER: That's a FRESH AIR exclusive right there.

NOSRAT: Yep (laughter).

BRIGER: OK. So it may have sounded like I was complaining earlier about how long it took to make your focaccia, which is called the sky-high focaccia.

NOSRAT: (Laughter).

BRIGER: But I wasn't complaining 'cause it was really delicious. I even - I brought some in to the FRESH AIR staff who seemed to enjoy it. But it does take a lot of time. And I'm not a - I don't usually make focaccia, but I think recipes for focaccia don't have to be this long. Like, this is, like, a 24-hour process - right? - or even maybe a little more. I'm not sure.

NOSRAT: Yeah. Is there a question?

BRIGER: Well...

(LAUGHTER)

BRIGER: Well, so why is yours so long?

NOSRAT: Well, for one thing, if I'm not mistaken, that recipe's in a chapter called "Good Things Take Time."

BRIGER: Yes, it's true. Yes.

NOSRAT: (Laughter) So at least I'm not, like...

BRIGER: There's a caveat, but...

NOSRAT: I'm not misleading...

BRIGER: No.

NOSRAT: ...You. So there's only so much that sort of quick and easy will get you in terms of cooking. And a lot of what I do in writing recipes and in deciding what to include or how to shape a recipe is weighing, you know, the value of asking you to wait or asking you to go look for a special ingredient or asking you to - I don't know - do something a little more labor-intensive or complicated. And in this focaccia, which evolved out of the focaccia that I made in Italy on the "Salt Fat Acid Heat" documentary, I have found that the time really does make a big difference. And in fact, the time saves labor. So by not, it saves you from having to do the physical labor of kneading because time in a dough, resting and fermentation sort of does this incredible work of, like, flavor development, at adding all the little - getting all the gases and the bubbles and the lightness. And so in a way, it's, like, it is a much lazier (laughter) recipe. It's just a longer, you know, longer one time-wise.

So it's one to do when you, I don't know, are working from home or on a weekend when you can sort of take the dog for a walk, come and turn the focaccia, I don't know, unload the dishwasher, come and turn the focaccia. I also worked really hard to come up with a recipe that doesn't require a stand mixer, so anyone can make it. But I do think that it's worth it. I think you get a lot more loft. I think you get a really delicious flavor development. And I think you get that incredible chewiness, which is, like, in - what I'm always after in a focaccia.

BRIGER: Yeah. You preface this recipe by saying, I've spent more time thinking about and discussing the weight of a cup of all-purpose flour than anyone ever should...

NOSRAT: (Laughter).

BRIGER: ...And I still don't have a definitive answer. I mean, is that sort of getting back to the ineffableness of cooking?

NOSRAT: Yes. Yes. And certainly, like, with - when it comes to cup measurements, it's really - it's just, like - you know, another thing I just learned, or maybe I knew and forgot willfully, is a cup in England is different than a cup here. And so that's why in Britain, they measure everything by weight. It's just a smarter way to do it. Volume measurement is so sort of wacky that, like, you know, I could tell you you'd use 100 raisins, and that could, depending on the size of your raisin (laughter) - right? - that could be, you know, whatever, or a cup of raisins could be just a totally different weight. In a weird way, actually - this is getting me to a crazy place - my frustration with recipes is kind of at both ends of the spectrum. I both want it to be loose enough to allow for flexibility...

BRIGER: And then completely perfecting...

NOSRAT: ...And precise enough to guide you to the result that you're after.

BRIGER: Right.

NOSRAT: Yeah (laughter). Now that I sound like a total madwoman, please buy my book. Yeah.

BRIGER: All right. Well, I wanted to get to one more recipe, and this is spatchcocked chicken. And I'm just going to preface this by saying if any vegetarians are listening, you might want to just cut ahead a little bit because what you do to spatchcock a chicken is you take a pair of scissors and you cut out the backbone, which I found really hard to do. Like, it's not an easy - like, you're cutting through all this pretty strong cartilage on either side. So is that - I mean, that's normal. I should have expected that, kind of?

NOSRAT: I think in a way the fact that this is something so foreign for you and so many other people is reflective of the fact that, you know, at this point in time, it's almost - some stores you can't even buy a whole chicken, right? Like, there was a point in time where all you bought was a whole chicken, or all you bought was, you know, a whole side of pork or whatever, and then you would learn how to cut it - butcher it down and cut it into pieces. And now our food is so processed. And even whole foods, things like meats, are processed down into their sort of parts for us to buy. And so people are, like, kind of confounded by things like that.

And so I don't blame you at all, and maybe I could have been or should have been more clear about that. But it's not - you know, you are cutting through an animal's bones. But also you kind of just trim along both sides of the backbone. It's kind of like - you have to be careful and do it sort of little by little on both sides so that the - it doesn't torque so much so that you get the most sort of yield. And then it does pop right out. I always save that backbone for stock. And then you use your body weight to sort of press down on the chicken and...

BRIGER: You flip it over, right?

NOSRAT: Yeah, you flip it over, and then you press down on the breast until kind of you hear a pop. And that's the sternum.

BRIGER: It's like chiropractic.

NOSRAT: Yeah, it's kind of like you're doing chiropractic. Yeah. And it's the sternum sort of popping, and then now the chicken will lay flat. And the whole reason to do this at all...

BRIGER: Yeah. Why are we doing this?

NOSRAT: ...Is that because - well, twofold. One, a spatchcock chicken that's - you know, spatchcocking is just a German word, and it's probably one of those compound words that means, like, flattened chicken or something. I actually don't know what spatch part is - it means. But it really is just literally to, like, flatten your bird. And so something that's flat and has much more surface area is going to cook much more quickly than something that's round. And much more evenly and also get so much more browning on all that surface area. So, to me, like, if - at this point in time, if I'm going to roast a chicken at home, I pretty much always spatchcock it 'cause it cuts down something that can be, I don't know, anywhere 60 to 80 minutes of cooking, all the way down to about 40 to 45 minutes of cooking.

BRIGER: Yeah. And you also suggest that you cook it in an iron skillet rather than, like, a roasting pan.

NOSRAT: Yeah. Again, the skillet will get nice and hot, stay nice and hot, sort of contain all the juices. And it's just - and it's really efficient. Plus, I always will start the spatchcock chicken in the pan, breast side down, to get some browning sort of going and give it momentum and then flip it over and throw it in the oven.

BRIGER: All right. Well, if you're just joining us, our guest is Samin Nosrat. She has a new cookbook called "Good Things: Recipes And Rituals To Share With People You Love." More after a short break. I'm Sam Briger, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "EAT THAT CHICKEN")

CHARLES MINGUS: (Singing) Oh, Lord, I wanna eat it, eat that chicken, eat that chicken pie. Oh, Lord, I do. I wanna chew it, eat that chicken, eat that chicken pie. Oh, Lord, yes, I do. I wanna eat it, eat that chicken.

BRIGER: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Sam Briger. Our guest, Samin Nosrat, became famous for her book and the Netflix show based on the book, both called "Salt Fat Acid Heat." The book in particular was like a cooking manifesto. The idea is, if you understand those four elements, you can learn to cook without relying on recipes. She has a new book called "Good Things: Recipes And Rituals To Share With People You Love." This book was a struggle to write, in part because of Nosrat's ambivalence to recipes. But also, as she reveals in the book's introduction, because she fell into a depression after the success of "Salt Fat Acid Heat" and the COVID pandemic, which compelled her to reevaluate what mattered to her and what success looked like.

So, Samin, you were on the show in 2018, when your Netflix show was out. And, you know, looking at your life from the outside, it looked like things were going, like, pretty well. Your book was a huge success. Everyone loved your show. But you've written in the new book that...

(Reading) Happiness and meaning continued to elude me. Instead, all I felt was emptiness.

Do you mind sharing what was happening?

NOSRAT: Yeah. It's funny 'cause I'm back in the same room, talking to you and just remembering that time. And it was an amazing time, and it was what I wanted more than anything. It felt so amazing and so lucky and such an honor to have that attention and that my work was reaching people and meaning something to them, and that after, like, so many years of sort of working in the background, I was finally sort of visible for the thing that I had done. That was all amazing, but it was also really grueling.

And there were sort of - there were probably two years straight of just, like, traveling and promotion after finishing the book and the show, and that was really exhausting. And so when I was in it, it felt sort of like the momentum of it kept me going. And then - but as it was slowing down, I just started to see how tired I was. And I actually remember I asked my - like, my speaking agents. I said, please, like, for 2020, no more events. Like, I just need to stay home and garden for a year and figure out what I'm doing again.

And then 2020 happened, and, you know, so much else happened. And so there was a lot of quiet for me after so much busyness, and that quiet was a time to reflect. And I had earned everything that I had thought I ever wanted, right? Like, I had - I never thought I would have financial stability, and all of a sudden, I had financial stability. I was able to buy a house. People saw me for the thing that I had made, and they loved it. And all of that felt so good, but I also was just so lonely. Like, I was sitting in this house by myself and wondering, like, what am I doing? And, I already said everything I have to say about cooking, and I'm not even sure I like cooking or eating that much anymore.

And I'm therapized enough to know - to sort of understand that I had sort of grown up and become into an achievement machine. And that was due to sort of many things inside and outside of me. But I don't think that I knew - like, I hadn't admitted to myself on the deepest, deepest level that I was - that I really believed on some level if I achieved all of these things that that would, like, fill this, like, hole of loneliness in my heart that sort of I always call my oldest friend, is this loneliness. And I thought maybe I could address this loneliness by succeeding. But then I succeeded, and the loneliness was still there. And so that was a really sort of rude awakening.

BRIGER: Well, you said that you used to prioritize output - that you were going to make something extraordinary, and that was the way you would feel success. But that's - you no longer feel that way. You've sort of changed. You've recalibrated what is important to you.

NOSRAT: Let's be real. I'm trying to.

BRIGER: OK.

NOSRAT: You say that as I'm, like, on a press tour promoting this book.

BRIGER: Well, yes. That's true.

NOSRAT: Yeah. Yeah.

BRIGER: Yeah.

NOSRAT: Yeah. So, like, I don't want to, like, act like I've gone through some...

BRIGER: Some metamorphosis.

NOSRAT: ...Like, a Buddhist metamorphosis. But I'm trying. I'm trying to shift what I prioritize. And, you know, a mantra for me in making this book very much was, like, just make a thing, because before that, I had only made the thing. For me, "Salt Fat Acid Heat" was the thing my life was sort of always heading toward since I was 17, 18, 19 years old, and it came out when I was 37. You know, I had that idea so long ago, and it was very much this, like, culmination of so many years of hard work. And the thought of trying to do that again was really overwhelming and, like, yeah, made me collapse under it. And so I kind of - a friend at one point was like, what if you just try and make a thing? Like - and so I was like, oh, there is value in just making something. It doesn't have to be the best thing I've ever made in the world.

BRIGER: Well, I guess I'm wondering if part of your recalibration is being able to provide this book, where even within the pages, like you're talking about, like, I often just make some steamed greens for dinner, or - and, like, there's this sort of a - there's an imperfection baked into the product itself.

NOSRAT: Yeah. I mean, very much. You're - yes. That - I'm so glad that comes across to you because I very much feel like - I mean, I made a joke about this recently. I was like, I'm just lowering standards everywhere.

BRIGER: (Laughter).

NOSRAT: But I do think it is a little bit of that. I think for one thing, for me, it's trying to, in my own life, address the very harmful perfectionism that has driven me always. And it's driven me sort of in my life at large, and it's also very much driven me in the kitchen because I was trained to be a perfectionist. And - but I've had finally to kind of come to terms with the fact that that's at work. That's in a professional kitchen, where it's my job to deliver the best possible thing at any cost over and over again, night after night. And - but that's not what cooking is for in my life. And that's not what cooking is for, I think, in most people's lives at home. And I think there is a really sort of toxic and destructive message that's baked into food media, in a way, and just the sort of, like, sexification...

BRIGER: Right.

NOSRAT: ...Of, like, food when...

BRIGER: Like, these beautiful images of food...

NOSRAT: Totally.

BRIGER: ...All looking perfect, and...

NOSRAT: Totally. Or, like, you can cook like a chef. I mean, maybe - I guess I'm complicit in it, too, in a way. Like, the idea that we are supposed to somehow produce professional results at home under home circumstances - you know, there's something very disingenuous and harmful in selling that to people, that it's something you can do at home. And I hope that in some ways, modeling me trying to be nicer to myself is a gift to people at home that, like, hey, if she's a professional and sometimes she can't do more than just make rice in the rice cooker and eat some boiled broccoli with it and maybe some hot sauce, like, maybe it's OK for us to consider that dinner, too. Maybe a baked potato can just be dinner. Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, our guest is Samin Nosrat, whose new book is called "Good Things: Recipes And Rituals To Share With People You Love." More after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF PAQUITO D'RIVERA'S "CONTRADANZA")

BRIGER: This is FRESH AIR. Our guest is Samin Nosrat. Her new book is called "Good Things."

I think also one of the things that's changed about you since then is that you're talking about your family a little bit more now.

NOSRAT: Yeah. Yeah.

BRIGER: In the past, you know, you would talk about how difficult it was for you to be the daughter of Iranian religious refugees in a very white community in San Diego. But you didn't talk so much about the difficulties you faced in your home. And I actually remember we did a live event together before COVID, and before we went on stage, I asked, you know, is there anything you don't want me to ask you about? And you said...

NOSRAT: And so I said my dad?

BRIGER: Yeah. You said, just don't ask me about my dad.

NOSRAT: Yeah.

BRIGER: And your dad died in 2022. Is that why you're more comfortable talking about this now?

NOSRAT: Yes, definitely. And I think - well, my dad was a really complicated person. And it wasn't until - he had a traumatic brain injury and then was in the hospital for several months before dying. And it wasn't until he basically was incapacitated that I was able to reflect on some of my feelings, which I now understand were fear for my own safety.

BRIGER: Well, before that, you had really distanced yourself from him, right?

NOSRAT: Yes. And I was estranged from him basically my entire adult life, which also felt very shameful to acknowledge and talk about. But also, I was scared to talk about it because he was often sort of stalking me and sending people to spy on me and stuff. And...

BRIGER: Like...

NOSRAT: And it was scary.

BRIGER: Like, hiring people?

NOSRAT: Not hired people, but just - my dad was a really complicated and traumatized person. And so there would be sort of, like, distant family members that he would sort of assign to come check on me and stuff. And I lived with a very real fear that he would and could harm me in sort of meaningful ways, if not physical ways, then other ways. And that fear of my father for sure was present that night when I asked you to not talk about him.

And so - and also, the actual lived experience of watching somebody die, and in this particular, like, melodramatic, traumatic situation that was so heightened and so intense - it just gave me so much to face in my own life. And one of those things was, like, I just - I watched him die. And he was so sort of lonely, and the sort of sum total of everything that he'd done was coming back to end his life so sadly. Like, he did it to himself. And it made me reflect on that, in that moment and ever since, about how I want to die and what I want to be looking at at the end of my life. And, you know, I want to look back and know that I made a life filled with beauty and friendship and joy and love and nature and goodness. And so, how do I make my choices on a daily basis so that I can end my life that way? And that sort of has been - become part of this recalibration.

BRIGER: Which is baked into this book, which - as well. But, I mean, the other thing that I can imagine is you go to help your dad. He's on a ventilator, and then you find out that he's been married to someone else.

NOSRAT: Yeah.

BRIGER: I mean, your parents had been separated, but...

NOSRAT: My parents were divorced by then. Yeah.

BRIGER: Your parents were divorced, but you and your siblings, I think, did not know that he had remarried.

NOSRAT: Yeah. He had a secret wife who we - you know, the only way my brothers and I sort of made it through this time, which was so disorienting and crazy, was a lot of dark humor. And so we named this woman New Mommy (laughter). We call her New Mommy (laughter). And she really - it was just a really complicated situation. And so he had filed for divorce from her 13 days before his traumatic brain injury. And so it was - but in California, there's a six-month cooling-off period, so they were still technically married. And so in this very complicated sort of medical situation, she appeared from across the world. She lives in Israel, and so she appeared sort of by phone to threaten to sue the hospital and to - you know, she called me and my brothers, like, murderers and thieves...

BRIGER: If they took...

NOSRAT: ...Every day for six months.

BRIGER: If they...

NOSRAT: Yeah, if they...

BRIGER: ...Took him off the ventilator.

NOSRAT: If they took him off the ventilator. And so - and then she just accused us of murdering - of wanting to murder him. So it was very sort of - it was so heightened in drama, you know? Like, my brother and I kept joking, like, we're going to turn this into a movie one day. But it would be the worst movie ever because it was just, like...

BRIGER: Yeah.

NOSRAT: ...So over the top.

BRIGER: Yeah. Well, then you also discover this family secret of - that your ancestors were Jewish, perhaps.

NOSRAT: Yeah, my dad's side of the family. There are so many things, Sam.

BRIGER: Well, I mean, that's the - like, I mean, having your father die, which I've - my father died, too, and I was there when he died. And that...

NOSRAT: Yeah.

BRIGER: ...In itself is really hard to deal with, and it changes your sense of identity. But, you know, piling onto that all these other things...

NOSRAT: Yeah.

BRIGER: ...Like, I just don't - I don't understand what that would be like.

NOSRAT: It was really hard. It was a really hard time. And, you know, like, it's not done, you know, this, like, ending. Well, for one thing, it'll never be done. But also, it's just literally not done. Like, we're still sort of in the estate stuff. And so we - just the other day, we got an email from the lawyer saying, oh, hey, here's - here are the contents of your father's safe. Like, let me know which things you would like and I'll - you know, I'll, like, interface with New Mommy's lawyer about it. And so we clicked on the file, and it was a 500-page PDF (laughter) with photos, like, you know, of just, like, all of these documents and things and, like, driver's licenses and who knows what? Just papers, mostly, from the safe. And a lot of it's in Farsi. So I'm so curious because so much has been withheld from me about where I come from and who I come from. And so I would love to sort of try and piece together some semblance of some truth as much as possible. But between coming from, like, a very secretive family and a very secretive country (laughter), that's not very easy.

BRIGER: Yeah. Well, so how have you folded in this Jewish ancestry into your understanding of yourself?

NOSRAT: I mean, at this point, I will say, you know, there's a part of me that has always found something really comforting in Judaism as a religion. There is just this beautiful sort of built-in sense of collectivity in a way that's, like, built into the rituals and the practices. And I have always - like, I want to be at your Seder, you know what I mean? Like, I want to be sort of hearing these stories and being at these tables. I've always wanted to be part of something. And so there was a way where it felt kind of like a little bit of a gift, you know? And also, like, I also feel that way about other religions. It was just like, wow, this is cool. Like, this is cool that there's a piece of this somewhere in me.

But in terms of, like, where I was at this time in my life is, you know, one of sort of the foundational texts for me for this book is a really small little book by a rabbi philosopher named Abraham Joshua Heschel. It's a book called "The Sabbath." And it's just this beautiful little sort of treatise on the value of making time, like, ritualizing the practice of being together, and that time is our most precious currency, basically. And that is an aspect of Judaism that I can really get behind, you know? And also, that was at the same time this thing that was becoming sort of central to my own life was trying to create my own Sabbath-like practice with these Monday dinners that I have with my friends and sort of trying to understand how it is that a ritualized meal can feel like such an anchor for life. And so there was a way where I realized, oh, like, cool, I get to claim some piece of this.

BRIGER: You dedicate this book to a few people, including your dog, Fava.

NOSRAT: (Laughter).

BRIGER: And you say they're the family that's chosen you. And these, I think, are the people that you have these weekly dinners with.

NOSRAT: Plus a few other people, yeah.

BRIGER: Plus a few other people. And these dinners are incredibly important to you. I think they started at a time when you were feeling really low and someone reached out and said let's just have dinner. Do you miss these dinners? You're on book tour now. Are you missing these dinners?

NOSRAT: Well, today I'm missing one (laughter). But I was there last Monday, and I'll be there next Monday. So I definitely, you know, it's in my calendar. It's one of my favorites on my phone is the Monday dinner text thread (laughter). These are the people sort of very much at the heart of this book and now at the heart of my life. And I'm so glad for them. I'm so glad for this ritual.

You know, the other day I was leaving my house to go to the airport to begin this book tour. And I locked the door. And I walked to the car. And I said, like, a little prayer under my breath. I said, it'll be different this time, it'll be different this time. Like, I have something to ground me. I have Fava, I have these friends, I have my girlfriend. I have my home, I have this ritual, I have a place that I'm expected to be every Monday. And I have somewhere where I belong. And I don't know that I've really ever had that before. And it feels really good.

BRIGER: Samin Nosrat, thank you so much for coming back on FRESH AIR.

NOSRAT: Oh, thanks for having me, Sam.

GROSS: Samin Nosrat's new cookbook is called "Good Things." She spoke with FRESH AIR's managing producer Sam Briger. After we take a short break, film critic Justin Chang will review the new romantic fantasy film "A Big Bold Beautiful Journey," starring Colin Farrell and Margot Robbie. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BOB WILBER AND KENNY DAVERN'S "ROSETTA")

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. In the new romantic fantasy film "A Big Bold Beautiful Journey," Colin Farrell and Margot Robbie play two lonely strangers who wind up traveling together in a rental car with a magical GPS. The movie, which also features Kevin Kline and Phoebe Waller-Bridge, was directed by Korean American filmmaker Kogonada, who previously made the independent dramas "Columbus" and "After Yang." Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

JUSTIN CHANG, BYLINE: I have a real affection for stories in which ordinary-looking doors show up in the middle of nowhere and become portals to another realm or dimension. It could be the wardrobe that leads to the wintry woods of Narnia, or the doors that form an elaborate teleportation network in films like "Monsters, Inc." or the Japanese anime "Suzume." One of the reasons I was curious to see "A Big Bold Beautiful Journey" is that it repurposes what is essentially a children's fantasy device for a grown-up audience. It's a drama about love, loss and the fear of commitment with a let's go on an adventure twist, like "Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind" by way of "The Phantom Tollbooth." I wish it were remotely as good as that sounds.

The movie was written by Seth Reiss of the recent haute cuisine horror satire "The Menu." And from the beginning, it's awash in strained whimsy. We're in an unidentified city where rain showers erupt out of nowhere and everyone packs perfectly color-coordinated umbrellas. Colin Farrell plays a single guy named David, who's heading to a friend's wedding hundreds of miles away when he runs into car trouble. Off he goes to rent a new one at an eccentric agency run by Kevin Kline and a randomly German-accented Phoebe Waller-Bridge. They give him a car with a GPS that spouts cryptic directions and at one point asks, do you want to go on a big, bold, beautiful journey? David says yes. It soon becomes clear that this journey will be undertaken with Sarah, played by Margot Robbie, whom David meets and flirts awkwardly with at the wedding. Like David, Sarah is single and has little interest in jumping into a relationship.

But that begins to change as the two take the scenic route back to their home city. Along the way, the GPS steers them toward those magical doors, one after the other, which lead them both into scenes from the past. One door goes to a lighthouse that David remembers seeing as a child. Another opens into an art museum that Sarah used to visit with her mother. Still another leads to a fateful night when young David played the lead role in his high school musical and was rejected by the girl he loved. In this scene, David, standing in for his 15-year-old self, tells Sarah about the torment he's about to reexperience.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "A BIG BOLD BEAUTIFUL JOURNEY")

COLIN FARRELL: (As David) That night - I mean tonight, I go home and I don't even get out of my costume. I go up to my playroom. I plant myself face down on the couch, and I cry.

MARGOT ROBBIE: (As Sarah) You had a playroom?

FARRELL: (As David) I cry so hard. Jesus. God, it feels like it - oh, it feels exactly like it felt that night.

ROBBIE: (As Sarah) OK. Well...

FARRELL: (As David) Except now I know it's worse. No, 'cause I know she's going to just destroy me all over again.

ROBBIE: (As Sarah) OK. Just don't tell her you love her.

FARRELL: (As David) But I have to.

ROBBIE: (As Sarah) Why? You just said that you know that she's not going to say it back.

FARRELL: (As David) Maybe she will.

ROBBIE: (As Sarah) She won't.

FARRELL: (As David) I have to.

CHANG: There's something low-key charming about how matter-of-factly David and Sarah submit to all this quasi-therapeutic enchantment without asking too many questions. They're willing to go along for the ride, and so we go along with them up to a point. There are touching moments here and there, like when David finds himself comforting his dad, then a nervous new father played by Hamish Linklater, or when Sarah gets to be 12 again and relive a precious evening with her mom - that's Lily Rabe - before her untimely death. But even these poignant scenes feel like laborious steppingstones en route to a predictable outcome - David and Sarah are meant to be together and should just get over their commitment phobia already and take the plunge.

There's nothing wrong with that. Most romantic comedies come to similar conclusions. But hearing the characters talk so relentlessly about their relationship hang-ups and parent issues would be a drag, even without all these supernatural visual aids. And while Farrell and Robbie are both as likable as ever, the dynamic feels lopsided, mainly because Sarah's character is so poorly written. Not long after they meet, she tells David that she's bad news and will only hurt him like she's hurt every other man she's been with. Sarah represents another kind of fantasy, the kind that's meant to titillate and moralize at the same time.

Perhaps the most mystifying thing about "A Big Bold Beautiful Journey" is that it was directed by Kogonada, one of the most interesting and philosophical voices to emerge in recent American independent cinema. He previously directed Colin Farrell in the lovely sci-fi drama "After Yang," and he made an exquisite debut with "Columbus" about two young people bonding over a shared love of modern architecture. Like those films, "A Big Bold Beautiful Journey" wants to engage us in heady conceits, transport us to another place and say something about how we forge lasting relationships and memories. But not even Kogonada's elegant shot compositions or his skill with actors can work wonders with a script this hopeless. It's a magical doorway to nowhere.

GROSS: Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. He reviewed "A Big Bold Beautiful Journey."

Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about what the First Amendment and freedom of the press mean now during President Trump's second term. Our guest will be Marty Baron, former editor of The Washington Post, and Adam Liptak, who covers the courts for The New York Times and is also a lawyer who previously represented the Times. I hope you'll join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF MICHEL CAMILO'S "ISLAND BEAT")

GROSS: To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Therese Madden directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF MICHEL CAMILO'S "ISLAND BEAT")

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