Road to War May Have Run Through Italy

DATE April 26, 2007 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Carlo Bonini, Italian investigative reporter and
co-author of "Collusion," on the motivations behind the forgers
and the enablers of the forgery of the papers claiming Hussein
had looked into buying equipment used in WMDs
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

Remember those now infamous 16 words in President Bush's 2003 State of the
Union address, about how Saddam Hussein had tried to buy uranium in Africa,
uranium which could be used for nuclear weapons? That statement was used to
help make the case for invading Iraq, but the information wasn't true. The
document it came from was fraudulent.

My guest Carlo Bonini is the Italian journalist who broke the story of the
faked document and how it made its way to American intelligence agencies. The
story involves the Niger embassy in Rome; a former Italian intelligence agent;
and the Italian counterpart of the CIA, SISMI.

Bonini is an investigative reporter for the Italian newspaper La Repubblica
and has co-written a new book called "Collusion: International Espionage and
the War on Terror." It not only covers the story of the fraudulent document,
it covers the role Italian intelligence played in another false story that was
used to make the case for invading Iraq, and describes how Italian
intelligence cooperated with the CIA in the formerly-secret program known as
Extraordinary Rendition.

Carlo Bonini, welcome to FRESH AIR. The Niger document was part of a larger
dossier of forged documents. Who forged them, do you know?

Mr. CARLO BONINI: There are at least two key characters in this story, two
Italian key characters who had a key role. The first one is a guy, is an
Italian gentleman in his mid-60s, and his name is Rocco Martino. The other is
a lady. In the book, we refer to her as Signora Laura, "Lady Laura," the
name--the complete name is Laura Montini. Rocco Martino was, let's say, a
freelance agent in the intelligence community. He had been, in the past, a
police officer. Then he was an intelligence officer. And finally, after
being discarded, thrown out from the service, back from the Italian secret
service back in the '80s, he started this freelancing career. Basically, he
was used to sell informations, intelligence informations, no matter if they
were true or false, for pocket money sometimes.

The other key character, Laura Montini, was a SISMI mole. SISMI is the
Italian intelligence service, the Italian CIA. She was a mole for the Italian
service inside the Niger embassy.

The two had a chance to meet each other in the year 2000, and let's say they
started a small business. The lady was able to put together pieces of
informations from the Niger embassy. She passed them to Rocco, and Rocco had
the chance to sell these informations and disseminate this information through
the European intelligence services.

What happened was that, in year 2001, the business turned into something
different. Laura Montini and Rocco Martino put together a quite weird
dossier. The dossier allegedly stated that Niger government and the Iraqi
government had signed, back in 1999, a deal for the shipment of 500 tons of
pure uranium--or yellow cake, if you prefer, to...(unintelligible).

GROSS: So what was the largest story that these forged documents told?

Mr. BONINI: The story was that, at the time, 1999, Iraqi ambassador to the
Vatican arrived in Jamay in order to discuss with the local officers...

GROSS: In Niger?

Mr. BONINI: In Niger, in Jamay, an important deal. And the deal was the
shipment of 500 tons of pure uranium--or yellow cake, if you prefer,
to...(unintelligible). According to the forged documents, the mission had
been successful because, in July 2000, the president of Niger and the
president of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, had finally signed the agreement. As you
can imagine, the story was an important story and also a scary story. If you
consider that in year 2000, almost everybody thought that Saddam was not
capable anymore to restart his nuclear program. If the story was true, the
story would mean that Iraq had back on track for a nuclear bomb.

GROSS: So what are the possible motives that Rocco Martino and Lady Laura
might have had for putting together this fake dossier?

Mr. BONINI: Money. Simply, money. Laura Montini, according to different
sources--we had the chance to talk in reporting for the book--she was short on
cash. She was desperately looking for cash at that time. She didn't have the
chance to earn as much money as she was used to, and Rocco was always looking
for money. So probably they put together this story, thinking that the story
could be sold well to the Italian intelligence as well as to the French
intelligence and to the British intelligence.

GROSS: Who bought the story, and who rejected it?

Mr. BONINI: The story was bought by the Italian intelligence quite
immediately, and he was almost immediately rejected by the French
intelligence. The Italian intelligence bought the story, and revamped the
story itself once September 11 occurred. You can imagine the story was put
together before, but after September the 11th, the story had new appeal. So
in October 2001, SISMI--again, the Italian CIA--decided to share the
informations that are the contents of the dossier with the US intelligence.
And a few months afterwards, within March and April of 2002, the Italian
intelligence shared the same kind of information with the British
intelligence.

GROSS: So you have these two people trying to sell these fraudulent
documents, the Italian intelligence buys into it, French intelligence rejects
it. After September 11th, the Bush administration gets this information, and
it ends up in a 2003 State of the Union address in a now-famous 16-word
statement: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently
sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." And this is used to
help justify the invasion of Iraq. So how does this information end up in the
State of the Union address?

Mr. BONINI: Through what we call in the book a classic, vicious, ominous
competitive intelligence circle. If you see what happens here in the Niger
story...

GROSS: This is a disinformation technique that's described as "competitive
intelligence"?

Mr. BONINI: Exactly. To say it in a word, competitive intelligence is a
disinformation technique that creates facts that turns, folds facts in true
circumstances. What we have here in the Niger story, we have the same hand
feeding two different mouths: the American one, the British one. The
technique is quite simple. You disseminate a piece of pro-intelligence
through the official intelligence channels, till this piece of
pro-intelligence comes to the attention of the policy-makers. Once the
policy-makers absorb this kind of intelligence, normally they go back to the
intelligence agencies asking for a double check. At that point, normally,
allied intelligence agencies talk each other trying to figure out if somebody
else had the chance to get the same information. And that's what happened.
The Americans talked to the British, and they had a confirmation that the
British had received the same information. What's the problem here? That
neither the Americans, neither the British told what was the source. So you
have the same poisoned source for two different intelligence agencies. And
then you have a poisoned pro-intelligence information double-checked and
believed as truth.

GROSS: Yeah, so your poison source passes off this phony document to American
intelligence and British intelligence, and when America calls the British to
say, `Hey, we got this document, do you think it's true?' And they say, `We
know it's true because we have the same information.' And they both got it
from the same unreliable source.

Mr. BONINI: Yes, and there is one thing more here. The Italian secret
intelligence service, for the whole time these informations had been
exchanged, always backed this information up.

GROSS: How? How did the Italian--yeah?

Mr. BONINI: Well, the Italians kept saying that the source of the
information was reliable, was highly reliable, and that was something that,
you know, made the story more credible.

GROSS: But you say in your book that the Italians had fired one of these
sources from the Italian version of the CIA in the '70s, and then he was kind
of like a freelance agent who tried to sell information to a lot of agencies.
But it sounds like he was still treated with suspicion.

Mr. BONINI: Yeah, but the point here is that this isn't--when we say that
there was a scam here, that was not simply a misunderstanding or a mistake,
it's because the Italian intelligence agency backed up a source that the
Italian intelligence service knew for sure that was a highly unreliable
source.

GROSS: So why did they do that?

Mr. BONINI: For political opportunity. Back in October 2001, Italy had just
installed a new government. Silvio Berlusconi had just come to power after
the general elections in the spring of 2001. Berlusconi was looking
desperately for a privileged relationship with George W. Bush. SISMI, the
Italian intelligence service, had a new director just yet, I mean, Nicola
Pollari, General Nicola Pollari, just had taken the post in October 2001. So
basically, that piece of information, the uranium from Niger, was the right
information at the right time. And SISMI and the Italian government decided
to exploit it.

GROSS: So are you suggesting that the Italian government wanted to tell the
Bush administration what the Bush administration wanted to hear to make its
case for the war in Iraq?

Mr. BONINI: It's the case. It's a typical attitude of the Italian
intelligence, and it was a typical attitude, also, of the former Italian
government, Berlusconi's government. Basically the Italians backed up the
information in order to please, to politically please, the White House. But
in the meantime, they never took the whole responsibility for what they were
doing. The Italians exchanged, shared the information but they never shared
the documents. Because the Italians knew better than other that the documents
were completely forged. So, again, it was a let's say an ominous way to be in
the game.

GROSS: My guest is Italian journalist Carlo Bonini. His new book is called
"Collusion." More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: My guest is Italian investigative reporter Carlo Bonini. His new book
"Collusion" is about the Italian connection in the fraudulent document that
said Iraq had tried to buy uranium in Niger.

Now, shortly after Bush used the Niger information in his State of the Union
address, the Bush administration gave these forged documents to the
International Atomic Energy Agency, and the IAEA analyzed them pretty quickly
and said, `These are forgeries.' Why was it so easy for the IAEA to figure out
they were forgeries? I mean, you described this as like pretty--you describe
the documents as pretty shoddy work.

Mr. BONINI: Yeah. I mean, the mistakes are really bad mistakes. Just to
give you an example, the dates are wrong. There is a letter dated 1999 that
refers to a deal struck in the year 2000, so it's unbelievable. There is a
letter signed by a foreign ministry who, at the time, was not anymore in the
post. So those documents were something that no one in the intelligence
community would ever buy. But if you conceal the documents and you decide to
share just the content of the documents, then the operation can take off.

GROSS: So you're saying Washington didn't have the most bogus of the
information?

Mr. BONINI: Well, for some time.

GROSS: But when the president used it in--used those 16 words in his State of
the Union address...

Mr. BONINI: The documents were in Washington, so that's why saying it
then...

GROSS: So by that point, they had all of the information?

Mr. BONINI: Absolutely.

GROSS: OK.

Mr. BONINI: I mean, they had more than one information. Because at that
point, January 2003, the documents finally arrived in Washington.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. BONINI: And at that point, the French intelligence had warned CIA that
the documents and the informations contained in the documents were bogus. And
that happened back in June, July 2002. And that's the, I think, the most
ominous part of this story.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Italian reporter Carlo Bonini.
His new book "Collusion" is about the role of Italian intelligence in helping
the United States make its case to invade Iraq.

Now, you think the Italian government was also involved in another story that
the Bush administration used to make its case that we needed to invade Iraq,
and this is the aluminum tubes story. Now, Judith Miller and Michael Gordon
in The New York Times had a front page story saying that Saddam Hussein was
embarking on a worldwide search for materials that he could use to make
nuclear weapons, and as part of that search he'd purchased aluminum tubes,
which could be used as components of centrifuges to enrich uranium. Now, it
turns out that these tubes really had nothing to do with nuclear weapons; they
were tubes that had some kind of use in missile systems. Now, at the same day
that this was a front page New York Times story, Dick Cheney went on "Meet the
Press" and said, you know, `We've learned that Saddam Hussein has purchased
these aluminum tubes to make nuclear weapons, and it even says so here on the
front page of The New York Times.' What was Italy's role in this aluminum
tubes story?

Mr. BONINI: Well, it was an important role. The tubes were bound to be--to
replace a conventional weapons system that Iraq has bought from Italy back in
the '80s. And the name of the weapons system is Medusa 81, it was a sort of
multiple launch weapons system. So the Italian intelligence service knew from
the beginning that those tubes were not bound to be used for the centrifuge,
but were bound to replace a well-known, at least in Italy, a well-known
weapons system, because it was an Italian system. Now, if you read the
Silverman report on pre-war intelligence, you will probably be struck by
reading in one of the footnotes of the report, that the Italian withhold the
information for 14 months. They decided not to disclose this crucial
information up till one year and a half after the Iraqi invasion was over.

GROSS: So they didn't disclose the information that these aluminum tubes were
really for missile systems and not for centrifuges for nuclear weapons?

Mr. BONINI: Exactly. Exactly.

GROSS: So why do you think the Italians withheld that information?

Mr. BONINI: Again, as I was saying before, it was a typical way to stay in
the game. The Italian government, the Italian intelligence knew that that
information, that speculation regarding the tubes was too important, for
political reasons, in order to trump up, to support the decision of invading
Iraq. And no one in Rome, in the government, as well as within the Italian
intelligence service wanted to ruin the decision, wanted to break the game.
And so they kept silent. And I think this is another important point in the
story, because actually the aluminum tubes story was the second level of the
whole scam. Because if you get the uranium, then you need to have something
to make this uranium function, and the tubes and the centrifuge was the second
level of the story. And that's why the Italians kept silent.

GROSS: Carlo Bonini writes for the Italian newspaper La Reppublica and is the
co-author of the new book "Collusion." He'll be back in the second half of the
show. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Italian investigative
journalist Carlo Bonini. He broke the story that the now infamous Niger
document that said that Iraq was trying to buy yellow cake uranium was forged
and planted. His new book "Collusion" discusses the role of the Italian
intelligence agency SISMI in that story and in the misleading story that Iraq
had imported aluminum tubes, which could be used to make nuclear weapons.

There's a third story about Italy's relationship with America and the war on
terror that you tell in your book. And this has to do with what's been called
Extraordinary Rendition. This is the program in which suspected terrorists
are basically arrested and flown to another country for interrogation, where
the kinds of techniques can be used that we're supposed to not be using in the
United States. This is the story of an Egyptian cleric who's living in Italy,
but who was kidnapped by Italian and American agents and finally flown to
Egypt, where he says he was interrogated and tortured. There's a trial set
for June of this year in Italy, and 26 Americans and five Italians are
indicted now for the kidnapping of this Egyptian cleric.

What is the significance of this story?

Mr. BONINI: After September the 11th, several European governments decided
to give up important human rights, important civil rights to fight the war on
terror. This happened without any public discussion, at least in Europe, at
least in Italy, at least in Germany, at least in Norway. What I'm mentioning
are three countries where Extraordinary Renditions took place. So the
significance is that our country never discussed publicly, never declared war
to anybody, but in the meantime the Italian government decided to deal with
the US administration in order to set up and to put in place operations that
are against our constitution. I do know that Extraordinary Renditions are
quiet accepted practice of the US intelligence. When the CIA operated under a
presidential order, so there is no doubt that the CIA agents did exactly what
they were told to do, legitimately, by the US president. But the problem here
is that the event took place in Italy, in a sovereign country, in an ally
country, and what happened, again, broke our constitution. And that's why...

GROSS: It broke the Italian Constitution?

Mr. BONINI: Yeah, and that's why the Italian agents involved in the story,
as well as the CIA agents involved in the story, are now facing trial.

GROSS: So you've broken three really big stories about Italy's involvement in
the United States in secretive and deceptive ways during the war on terror.
What impact is this having on your journalistic career in Italy?

Mr. BONINI: Well, I must say that there were four difficult years, the last
four. Italy is a particular country. Sometimes I had the feeling to be
alone, and I had the feeling that, you know, usually say `Kidding,' either we
were nuts or we were absolutely and dramatically right. And..

GROSS: By "we" you mean you and your co-writer.

Mr. BONINI: My co-author, oh, yeah, co-writer. And especially because we
were left, again, we were left alone by the rest of the Italian press corps.
Our report were countered by fears of disinformation campaigning run by
Italian outlets directly or undirectly controlled by Silvio Berlusconi. And
sometimes, sometimes it happened that we were attacked publicly on the press
by journalists who eventually ended up in being on the payroll of SISMI.
So...

GROSS: There were journalists who were on the payroll of the Italian
intelligence agency?

Mr. BONINI: Yeah, there was at least one. And he was, you know, exactly
last summer, his name was found in a payroll list of SISMI, and actually he
admitted to have being writing and acted under instruction of SISMI. And this
journalist was one of the most fierce attacker on the Niger story, on
the....(unintelligible)...the rendition case. I mean, every time we broke one
of these kind of story, we were submerged by tons and hundreds and hundreds of
words and everywhere saying that it was fantasy, that nothing had happened,
and that we were basically two journalists who wanted to hurt the national
security interests, and that we were putting the good relation between Italy
and the US in danger.

GROSS: The press is supposed to be independent and impartial in its coverage
of politicians. But you're describing a situation in which the president of
Italy, during the earlier part of the century, Silvio Berlusconi, owned some
of the media. How much of the media--like, which sources did he actually own?

Mr. BONINI: Well, he has...

GROSS: While he was prime minister.

Mr. BONINI: Well, when he was prime minister, he controlled the three public
radio and television station RAI. He controlled the other half of the TV
empire in Italy--what I mean is the other three private TV stations, so
basically he owned, at the time, six television and radio stations. He owned
the first weekly magazine in the country. He owned the fourth daily paper in
the country. And he owned also the full control of the 60 percent of the
periodicals publications in Italy. That's, you know, that's quite a big noisy
machine. And the noisy machine was doing, believe me, lots of noise when
things started to appear ugly for the Italian government and the Italian
intelligence in the Niger story.

GROSS: Any final thoughts you want to leave us with?

Mr. BONINI: Oh, I hope that we will be able, on both sides of the ocean, to
get to the bottom of the story. What still baffles me and strikes me is that
no one had been held accountable for what happened. I mean, the Niger bogus
cost a lot, in terms of lives, in terms of accountability of the modern
democracies. And no one has been taken accountable for that, I mean,
politically speaking. Not in Italy nor in US till now. So I hope that sooner
or later, somebody will have to explain what happened and why they decided to
sell this bogus, knowing that it was a bogus, to the world.

GROSS: Where are the two people who gave the fake documents related to Niger,
those two people are Rocco Martini and Lady Laura, as she was known?

Mr. BONINI: Well, as far as I know, in the last news I had regarding Rocco
Martino are that he retired. I mean, he retired from his freelancing job. He
is now spending his time somewhere in northern Italy in a countryside retreat,
and he basically he never showed up again. The Miss Laura, Miss Laura
Montini, believe it or not, was still an employee at the Niger embassy till a
few months ago. She was still opening the door of the Niger embassy. And two
Niger officials, who were at the time of the embassy, and who were pulled back
immediately by the Niger government, are still in the diplomatic career,
traveling around, participating in international conferences. And that make
me think that also Niger government still has lots of things to say, but
probably it never will.

GROSS: Carlo Bonini, thank you very much for talking with us.

Mr. BONINI: Thanks to you.

GROSS: Carlo Bonini is the author of the new book "Collusion: International
Espionage and the War on Terror." Yesterday, the House Committee on Oversight
and Government Reform issued a subpoena to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice
to answer questions about the false claim that Iraq tried to buy uranium from
Niger.

Coming up, Bea Arthur. The first season of "Maude" just came out on DVD.
This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Performer Bea Arthur on "Maude," "The Golden Girls"
and "The Threepenny Opera"
TERRY GROSS, host:

It was 25 years ago that Bea Arthur first appeared on TV in the series "Maude"
as the deep-voiced, outspoken, domineering, liberal middle-aged suburban wife
and mother. The series was produced by Normal Lear, who also brought the
conservative Archie Bunker to TV. The first season of "Maude" has just been
released on DVD, so we invited Bea Arthur to talk with us about "Maude," her
subsequent hit series "The Golden Girls" and her first big break as Lucy Brown
in the first American production of "The Threepenny Opera."

"Maude" was often topical, dealing with race, the war in Vietnam and most
famously abortion. Let's start with a scene from the two-part abortion
episode in which the 47-year-old Maude is shocked to learn that she's
pregnant. She doesn't want to have the baby. It's too late in her life and
too medically risky. But she assumes her husband Walter does want the baby
because he's never fathered a child. Maude's daughter is from a previous
marriage. She's considering having the baby for his sake. Walter tells Maude
that he's going to have a vasectomy so they can avoid getting into this
predicament again. It turns out he can't go through with the vasectomy, but
he doesn't have the courage to tell her. In this scene, they're in bed
playing cards. She tells him she's worried if something ever happened to her,
he wouldn't be able to father a baby because of the vasectomy.

(Soundbite of "Maude")

Mr. WILLIAM MACY: (As Walter) Now wait a second, Maude. Were you having the
baby because you thought I wanted it?

Ms. BEA ARTHUR: (As Maude) Well, you do, don't you?

Mr. MACY: (As Walter) Sweetheart, would it disappoint you too much to learn
that becoming a father was never one of my life's ambitions? I don't know
why. For years, I used to feel guilty about it. For years, people told me I
was nuts or selfish. How could I not love kids. Well, I do love kids, but
they don't have to be mine. That's probably the worst confession I'll ever
make. Do you hate me?

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Maude) Of course not, darling. I love you. I love you, and
I love my life.

Mr. MACY: (As Walter) Gin.

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Maude) I take it all back! What are you trying to do to me?
I don't even have time to sort my cards and you're ginning out on me!

Mr. MACY: (As Walter) Forget the cards, Maude. We have something much more
important to talk about.

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Maude) What, you finally decided you do want a pickle?

Mr. MACY: (As Walter) Maude, I want you to have whatever it is you want.
Does that include the baby?

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Maude) Well, it did when--when I thought you wanted it.

Mr. MACY: (As Walter) Well, Maude, I think it would be wrong to have a child
at our age.

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Maude) Oh, so do I, Walter. Oh, Walter, so do I.

Mr. MACY: (As Walter) We'd make awful parents.

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Maude) Oh, impatient, irascible.

Mr. MACY: (As Walter) Awful. It's just not our time of life.

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Maude) Oh, Walter, other people it might be fine. But for
us, I don't think it would be fair to anybody. Oh, Walter, hold me closer.

Mr. MACY: (As Walter) Are you frightened, Maude? About the operation, I
mean?

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Maude) Oh, don't be ridiculous, darling. Why should I be
frightened? Were you frightened of the vasectomy?

(Soundbite of laughter, awkward pause)

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Maude) I said were you frightened about the vasectomy?

(End soundbite)

GROSS: That's an episode from "Maude," with my guest Bea Arthur and William
Macy. And this was in 1972, when abortion...

Ms. ARTHUR: Yes. Thirty-five years ago, yes.

GROSS: You know, abortion was legal in New York, but the Supreme Court had
not yet ruled on Roe v. Wade. Maude was the first TV character to have an
abortion. Bea Arthur, what was your reaction when you read this script?

Ms. ARTHUR: Well, I tell you, when I first read the script, I wasn't that
involved with the politics of the topic. I mean, I just read it and thought,
`My God, what a brilliant script.' I just thought it was beautiful. I'm
sitting here, and as I heard that scene again, I really got a little teary.
It was beautiful. It was funny, but it was so beautiful.

GROSS: So what kind of reactions did you get to this, both as a program and
personally from people who you knew or met?

Ms. ARTHUR: Well, I tell you, the mail was enormous, but I was never shown
what we call hate mail. What I had seen was very intelligent, caring people
who voiced their displeasure and explained why. And I think it was the first
time I had ever even thought about it, because I came from a very small town
on the eastern shore of Maryland, and when anybody got pregnant, the thing was
to have an abortion. Of course, it was not legal, but it's what everybody
did. I mean, I never had an abortion but I suddenly thought of why it's very
painful.

GROSS: My guest is Bea Arthur, and the first season of "Maude" has just come
out on DVD.

Now, "The Golden Girls" is out on DVD, and I want to play a scene from a
"Golden Girls." And in case anybody doesn't know what that series was, you
were in your 50s for this series, and lived in Miami in a house with your
mother, who was in her mid-80s, and your two other single-women friends. And
in this scene, you've just ended your therapy with your ex, Stan, and you've
agreed to not see each other for a couple of years. So you're back at home
with your women friends, telling them how happy you are to be done with Stan.
Here's the scene.

(Soundbite of "The Golden Girls")

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Dorothy) I tell you, I am still stunned. I mean, I just
can't get over that Stan is gone forever. I'm finally free.

Ms. RUE McCLANAHAN: (As Blanche) Really? Oh.

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Dorothy) And I feel so great. As a matter of fact, a toast.

Ms. BETTY WHITE: (As Rose) OK!

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Dorothy) To finality and closure. To husbands being out of
our lives and gone forever.

(Soundibte of glasses clinking)

Ms. WHITE: (As Rose) Oh.

Ms. McCLANAHAN: (As Blanche) Dorothy!

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Dorothy) No, wait, wait! This is good! I mean, don't cry!
Why are you crying?

Ms. WHITE: (As Rose) Our husbands are dead, you monster!

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Dorothy) I'm sorry! I mean, I didn't mean it that way. Oh,
come on, now, let's celebrate.

Ms. McCLANAHAN: (As Blanche) Celebrate? You don't know what it's like to
have a husband die and leave you with nothing. Just a closet full of suits
that you spend the rest of your lonely life trying to get rid of. What are
you, anyway, a 42 regular?

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Dorothy) Look, I'm sorry if I seemed insensitive. But in
every relationship, there are always times when you don't want to be with each
other. I mean, Stan and I went through a period where we had no marital
relations at all. I totally cut off his sex.

Ms. WHITE: (As Rose) You mean it grows back?

(End soundbite)

GROSS: That's an episode of "The Golden Girls" with my guest Bea Arthur,
along with Rue McClanahan and Betty White.

Were you able to get away with a lot of sex jokes on "The Golden Girls"
because it was about older women?

Ms. ARTHUR: I guess so. I guess so. Yeah, it's the first time you saw
women--I hate that expression--of a certain age, well groomed and having
active sex lives--and great earrings, I remember. Yeah, the reason I stumble
when asked that question is because when I first read the first script, I
thought it was one of the funniest, most adult, intelligent script I'd ever
read, and I never even stopped to think, `Hey, these are older women.' It just
seemed very funny to me.

GROSS: My guest is Bea Arthur. The first season of "Maude" has just come out
on DVD. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Bea Arthur, and the first
season of "Maude" has just been released on DVD.

Let's go back to the very start of your career. You were in the famous 1954
production of "The Threepenny Opera," which was the first...

Ms. ARTHUR: Oh, yes.

GROSS: ...English production of the Kurt Weill/Bertolt Brecht musical,
translated by Marc Blitzstein.

Ms. ARTHUR: No, it was the first US production.

GROSS: Mm-hmm. Well, I want to play like a fantastic duet from this 1954
cast recording with you and Jo Sullivan, who later became Jo
Sullivan-Loesser...

Ms. ARTHUR: Yes. Yes. Yes.

GROSS: ...when she married the songwriter Frank Loesser. And this is just a
fantastic recording, and you sound great in it. Let's hear it.

(Soundbite of "The Threepenny Opera")

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Lucy Brown) (Singing) Come on out, you gutter lily, you!
Show your legs and let's all see how pretty
I'm always glad to admire beauty
They're the thickest ankles in the city

Ms. JO SULLIVAN: (As Polly) (Singing) Oh!

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Lucy Brown) (Singing) You thought you could make a big
impression on my Mackie.

Ms. SULLIVAN: (As Polly) (Singing) Didn't I, didn't I?

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Lucy Brown) (Singing) Guess you never met his old friend,
Jackie

Ms. SULLIVAN: (As Polly) (Singing) Didn't I, didn't I?

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Lucy Brown) (Singing) Well, you kind of make me laugh

Ms. SULLIVAN: (As Polly) (Singing) Ooh, I kind of make you laugh

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Lucy Brown) (Singing) Who would want a stupid calf?

Ms. SULLIVAN: (As Polly) (Singing) Only want one stupid calf

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Lucy Brown) (Singing) How, now, there's a leg for you
So Mackie needn't beg for you

Ms. SULLIVAN: (As Polly) (Singing) Well, you better ask him

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Lucy Brown) (Singing) Yes, you better ask him

Ms. SULLIVAN: (As Polly) (Singing) You better ask him

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Lucy Brown) (Singing) You better ask him, ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah!

Ms. ARTHUR and Ms. SULLIVAN: (As Lucy Brown and Polly) (Singing in unison)
Mackie and me, I always knew he'd choose me
Mackie and me, and you will never lose me
He's not in any danger
Of some threepenny stranger
He'll leave me for a stranger?
Laughable!

Ms. SULLIVAN: (As Polly) Yes, they call me beauty of the town...

(End soundbite)

GROSS: That's my guest Bea Arthur, along with Jo Sullivan, now Jo
Sullivan-Loesser, from the 1954 cast recording of "The Threepenny Opera."

Bea Arthur, what's your favorite memory of performing in that show in 1954?

Ms. ARTHUR: It was very--to this day, it's the most exciting moment of my
life. I walked into stage left and I started singing, and my first lyrics
were, "I used to believe in the days I was pure," and the audience started
laughing. And I thought, `Why the hell are you laughing at me?' And then my
next line was, "And I was pure, like you used to be," and they laughed again.
And I suddenly thought, `Hey, that's what comedy is. It's being true to what
you are playing.' And you must never show people that you're trying to be
funny, you just--there's a reality and an honesty. And it made my life,
because prior to that, I had never attempted comedy. I always pictured
myself, not as a tragedian, but certainly as a very tall, very young leading
woman.

GROSS: Did you work directly with Kurt Weill on "The Threepenny Opera"? And
if so...

Ms. ARTHUR: Oh, my God! Come on!

GROSS: What?

Ms. ARTHUR: He was even older than we were! No, you know who we did work
with? Lotte Lenya, who was, you know, Kurt's widow.

GROSS: And did she give you any useful advice on your role in "Threepenny
Opera"...

Ms. ARTHUR: Yes.

GROSS: ...or singing and performing in general?

Ms. ARTHUR: As a performer.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Ms. ARTHUR: As a performer.

GROSS: What did she tell you?

Ms. ARTHUR: Because I said to her, I said, `What do I do? I've never done
a'--I'd never done a song, you know, I'm all by myself on the stage. And I
said, `What do I do with my hands?' I said, `You just stand there.' And she
said, `You must never do anything unless you cannot not do it.'

GROSS: Before I let you go, just tell me a little bit about what your life is
like now.

Ms. ARTHUR: Oh, what can I say? First of all, I think you get to a certain
age and, what shall I say, financial stability, you find that you only do--oh,
yes! This reminds me, I'll make it very short. Billy and I were doing the
show, the one-woman show.

GROSS: This is your pianist in your show?

Ms. ARTHUR: Yes, musical director. And we were in Louisville, Kentucky, and
I was being interviewed on television by a lovely woman who suddenly said to
me, `You're so old! Why are you still doing this? Why don't you just leave
and relax?' And after I caught my breath, I realized and I said, `You know,
it's interesting. You know, performers never retire. They don't have to
retire. They work when they feel like it, when something interests them, or
they don't work if they don't feel like working.' And I do know that I
certainly cannot do another series. And as far as going back on stage, I
think I'm too old, too tired to want to play eight shows a week. I just,
there's no need for it.

GROSS: Well, Bea Arthur, thank you so much.

Ms. ARTHUR: Thank you, Terry.

GROSS: You can see Bea Arthur as "Maude" on the newly-released DVD set of the
first season.

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross. We'll close with Bea Arthur as the matchmaker Yenta
in the original cast recording of "Fiddler on the Roof."

(Soundbite of "Fiddler on the Roof")

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Yenta) (Singing) Rifka! Rifka! I have such news for you!
Remember Perchik, that crazy student?
Remember at the wedding?
When Tzeitel married Motel
And Perchik started dancing
With Tevye's daughter Hodel?
Well, I just learned that Perchik's been arrested in Kiev!

Unidentified Actor: (As Rifka) (Singing) No!

Ms. ARTHUR: (As Yenta) (Singing) Yes!

Actor: (As Rifka) (Singing) Shandel! Shandel! Wait till I tell you!
Remember Perchik...
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