Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're going to remember Glenda Jackson, who died June 15 at the age of 87. Jackson had two careers. She was an Oscar-winning actress who left acting to become a member of British Parliament, where she served for 23 years. She was elected in 1992 and stepped down in 2015. We're going to listen back to the interview I recorded with her in 2019 after she'd returned to acting and was starring on Broadway in a production of "King Lear" as King Lear. She had already played Lear in a London production that opened in 2016 at The Old Vic. In 2018, she won a Tony for her performance in the Edward Albee play "Three Tall Women."

Before serving in Parliament, she won Oscars for her performances in the 1969 movie "Women In Love" and the 1973 romantic comedy "A Touch Of Class." She also starred in the 1971 movie "Sunday Bloody Sunday." She won two Emmys playing Queen Elizabeth I in the 1971 BBC series "Elizabeth R," which was shown in the U.S. as part of "Masterpiece Theatre." When I spoke with her, we started with a clip from the Broadway production of King Lear. Lear has decided that he's old and it's time to unburden himself of his responsibilities as king and divide his kingdom among his three daughters.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

GLENDA JACKSON: (As King Lear) Know we have divided in three our kingdom. And 'tis our fast intent to shake all cares and busyness from our age, conferring them on younger strengths while we, unburdened, crawl toward death.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: Glenda Jackson, welcome to FRESH AIR.

JACKSON: Thank you.

GROSS: The first thing people always seem to want to know is, why is a woman playing King Lear, and what's it like to be a woman playing Lear? So you first played him in 2016 at The Old Vic in London. Why did you want to play Lear?

JACKSON: Who would refuse the opportunity to work in a play of that stature? I mean, it is such an extraordinary play. Like all of Shakespeare, essentially, he only asks us three questions - who are we? What are we? Why are we? And this particular play, it's just astonishing. Human nature is immutable. And so in a sense, it is the most contemporary play around at the minute. We, in England, had been engaged in a kind of gender-bender war, really. And the marvelous company that was created and succeeded in winning those battles - they did all of Shakespeare's histories with all-women casts. And so in a sense, that battle was over. And what was really - one of the really interesting things for me playing it was that nobody ever mentioned the fact that I was a woman playing a man, having seen the play.

And also, the other interesting thing I found in doing it, when I was a member of Parliament, part of my duties was to visit old people's homes, day centers, things of that nature. And as we get older, those absolute barriers that define gender begin to crack. They begin to get a little bit foggy and break up. And if you think about it, I mean, when we're born, we teach babies - don't we? - to be boys or girls. As we get older, we begin to explore, I think, rather more the alternatives to our defined gender. And that, certainly for Lear, is quite useful.

GROSS: I want you to elaborate a little bit on how you see gender boundaries blurring or falling away with age and to apply it to your own life, as well, if you find it applicable.

JACKSON: Well, I think I'm a bit of a cheat because when things are tough in a kind of direct way in my real life, I don't have any qualms about playing the old card, do you know what I mean? I mean, certainly as far as our underground is concerned, young people do get up and offer me a seat. The first time it happened, I felt absolutely mortified. And now I'm beginning to get to the stage where I expect it and then mortified if it doesn't happen. But 9 times out of 10, it does.

But in direct reference to the play, the things that he kicks out being - you know, he's a guy. No one during his entire life - and he's 80 years old in this play - has ever said no to him. And suddenly, someone does say no to him, and it all begins to crack for him, not in that immediate moment, but that's the story of the play. And so those aspects of him, which were overtly masculine - because that was the era in which he lived, the environment in which he lived - begin to move from absolute I'm right and everybody else is wrong - that's a simplistic way of putting it - to actually evaluating whether he was always right. And he begins to doubt it, and that's very interesting.

GROSS: Are there lines from "Lear" that have the most meaning to you, either personally or that you find most powerful or dramatic to say as an actor?

JACKSON: I try to avoid that. I try to observe the world through the character's eyes, but people who see the play do point out lines that are particularly meaningful to them. I always rather regret that they do that 'cause then it gets kind of stuck in my head and I have to find another way of finding it for the first time, if you see what I mean.

GROSS: I think I do...

JACKSON: But there are amazing...

GROSS: ...That you don't want to sound like a famous line. You want it to sound like...

JACKSON: It is a thought.

GROSS: ...Speech, like...

JACKSON: It's...

GROSS: ...Thought or speech. Yeah.

JACKSON: ...You know, it's a direct thought. I mean, it's - it arises out of the scene that you're trying to create with the other actors on the stage, yeah. But...

GROSS: So...

JACKSON: I mean, you know, in one's own time, there are lines that sort of reverberate and echo, yeah.

GROSS: So we've been talking about you playing King Lear. Let's hear you as Queen Elizabeth I in an excerpt...

JACKSON: OK.

GROSS: ...Of your Emmy Award-winning performance in the BBC series "Elizabeth R," which came to the U.S. as part of "Masterpiece Theatre." So in this scene, you're the new queen. You're 25 years old and unmarried, and your council is trying to pressure you to marry quickly. A member of your council challenges you to accept a suitor in front of the whole court. And by the end of the scene, everyone around you is kneeling. And here's my guest, Glenda Jackson, with actor Esmond Knight.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "ELIZABETH R")

ESMOND KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) The Archduke Charles will be most happy to come to England, Your Majesty.

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) And I shall be most happy to see him.

KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) But if he comes, he will come here as your future husband.

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) Oh, well, as to that...

KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) Anything else would be unthinkable.

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) I have often told the Imperial Ambassador...

KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) The Imperial Ambassador does not know Your Majesty as well as I do.

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) But he knows how to listen.

KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) The true Ambassador, Your Majesty, listens to what is meant and not only to what is said.

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) Then I will say again and mean it, the Archduke Charles may come to England as our guest.

KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) As your guest and as the husband of your choice.

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) I have not said that.

KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) But you have invited the Archduke Charles to your court.

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) I have said he is welcome.

KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) Very welcome, Your Majesty, I hope.

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) Welcome as any other guest would be.

KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) I am glad to hear it. I shall write to King Philip and tell him that you have invited the Archduke Charles to England and that he comes here as your future husband.

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) If he comes on those terms, he had best not come at all.

KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) Your Highness...

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) He said he wished to come here. I have never invited him. I have never said I would marry him. I have never said I would marry anyone - never.

KNIGHT: (As Bishop de Quadra) Your Majesty...

JACKSON: (As Queen Elizabeth I) Enough.

GROSS: That was a scene from "Elizabeth R" with my guest, Glenda Jackson. So we've heard you as King Lear. We've heard you as Queen Elizabeth. Having played, you know, a fictional king and portrayed an actual queen, did it make you think of gender differences between kings and queens?

JACKSON: Oh, well, very much so, because certainly as far as Elizabeth was concerned - I mean, let's face it, she'd had the most tumultuous upbringing, hadn't she? I mean, her mother's head was chopped off when she, Elizabeth, I think, was 3. She had all these various stepmothers after, a couple of whom also went the way of all flesh at the hands of her father. Her sister, who took over the throne, was not particularly in favor of her. And there was always this pressure upon her, once she did become queen, to marry, to ensure that her line continued.

And one of her extraordinary strengths, it seems to me, having read the histories and one thing or another, was that her great strength was that she didn't make a fast decision, which is in marked contrast to what Lear does. She would vacillate. She would put things off. She would delay stuff. And then if something happened, like, for example, the trial of Mary, Queen of Scots, and her execution, she would blame everybody around her for having done something that she claimed she didn't want to happen. Now, she wasn't lying when she said she didn't want it to happen. She didn't want it to happen. And yet there must have been part of her that knew that it had to happen. But of course it was taking away the divine right of kings, even though at that time the ruler was a queen.

GROSS: We're listening to my 2019 interview with actor and former member of British Parliament Glenda Jackson. She died June 15. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF GEORGE FENTON'S "IN CARE")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Oscar, Tony, and Emmy award-winning actor Glenda Jackson. She died June 15 at the age of 87. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with her in 2019 when she was starring on Broadway in a production of "King Lear" in the role of King Lear. Jackson had taken a long break from acting, during which she spent 23 years as a member of British Parliament.

So you've played kings and queens. You've served in Parliament. You were elected to Parliament in 1992. You've played powerful people, and you've had political power - not kingly or queenly...

JACKSON: No, no, no, no.

GROSS: ...Power, but...

JACKSON: No, no, no. Backbenchers - I cannot stress this strongly enough. For me, one of the most humbling experiences was being a member of Parliament. I mean, I give you - I mean, obviously I think it's amazing that somebody puts an X next to your name. It's not just you, of course. I mean, they obviously support your party and hopefully that party's manifesto.

But all members of Parliament hold what we call advice surgeries, and you hold them in the constituency, and any constituent can come in, and they would, and in some instances, they - well, in all - no, in the really serious ones, they sort of lay their life out on the table in front of you. You don't know them. They don't really know you. And not infrequently, their lives are tragic or disastrous through no fault of their own. And they come to their member of Parliament because their member of Parliament is their port of last resort. You can get a response to a letter. People will ring you on the phone.

In my experience, I didn't always get the result that my constituent wanted, but without exception, whether I did or whether I didn't, they always said thank you. And that is very, very humbling. And it is a great privilege to be elected to be a member of Parliament. And that kind of responsibility is something that really makes you realize who you are, and you're pretty damn small.

GROSS: Yes. OK. I can see what you're saying. You're helping people with constituent services and things like that. But you also stood up against the Iraq war when Tony Blair...

JACKSON: Oh, yeah.

GROSS: ...Joined with President George W. Bush. So, like, you stood up to power in a way that's different from, you know, being an actor. I mean, sure, you might want to stand up and object to direction that you're getting, but it's different than standing up to a prime minister who wants to take your country to war.

JACKSON: Well, as I've had occasion to say, it was the first time in my experience of being a member of Parliament that I had voted against my party's policy. And I presume, rather like murder, once you do it for the first time...

GROSS: (Laughter).

JACKSON: ...It gets easier after.

GROSS: Why did you want to serve in Parliament?

JACKSON: Anything I could have done - I mean, I was a member. I've always voted Labour. I'd been asked by the party to do various things for them, raise money. I once did the worst party political broadcast ever - things of that nature. And I'd been approached by various constituency parties to consider standing as a prospective parliamentary candidate. And in '92 the election was looming, and I think it was in 1989, I was approached by Hampstead and Highgate, which did indeed become my constituency. Anything I could have done that was legal that got Margaret Thatcher and her government out of office, I was prepared to have a go at. I didn't expect to be selected. I don't think I really expected to win. But we did win that seat. We didn't win the majority to put us into government until '97. But, yeah, that's why.

GROSS: What made you...

JACKSON: This woman who said, what had the suffragettes ever done for her? That question, whether there was such a thing as a society - that had destroyed local government in many ways, which, before her power seat, if that's what it was, you know, was responsible for delivering services to people in local environments. Every school in what became my constituency spent - the teachers, parents, not infrequently the pupils spent spare time trying to raise money to buy things like paper and pencils. I know it sounds ridiculous, but that was the case.

GROSS: As a woman who feels strongly about women's equality - and I assume you consider yourself a feminist - was it disappointing to you that, finally, a woman becomes prime minister and she's so conservative and stands for so many things that you are against?

JACKSON: Well, I mean, the overwhelming disappointment, actually, was that my party didn't win, I mean - do you know what I mean? - even, I mean, at that time. But it was just that she seemed to me to be so out of touch with what were the realities of life for the majority of people in my country. And, yes, of course, it was a disappointment that the first woman elected as prime minister was her, but I think rather more at the time, it was that she was conservative. It was only after years that one saw what were, for me, disastrous policies wreaking such damage.

GROSS: Let's hear what you had to say in parliament after Margaret Thatcher died. And this was in 2013, and there were many tributes made in parliament. And this was a day, I think, when most of the Labour members of Parliament stayed away. And so Conservative members were saying - you know, giving many tributes to Margaret Thatcher. And then you stood up and made a pretty scathing speech while Conservative members of Parliament basically jeered you. So let's hear what you had to say.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

JACKSON: We were told that everything I had been taught to regard as a vice - and I still regard them as vices - under Thatcherism was in fact a virtue - greed, selfishness, no care for the weaker, sharp elbows, sharp means. They were the way forward. We heard much of and will continue to hear over the next week of the barriers that were broken down by Thatcherism, the establishment that was destroyed.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: We can't take it.

JACKSON: What we actually saw - the word that has been circling around with stars around it - is that she created an aspirational society.

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: It aspired for things as, indeed, one of the former prime ministers who himself had been elevated to the House of Lords spoke about selling off the family silver and people knowing, under those years, the price of everything and the value of nothing. What concerns me is that I am beginning to see possibly the reemergence of that total traducing of what I regard as being the basest spiritual nature of this country, where we do care about society, where we do believe in communities, where we do not leave people to walk by on the other side. That isn't happening now.

GROSS: Wow (laughter). So did you expect that reaction when you decided to make those comments?

JACKSON: Oh, yes, of course. I mean, I'd sat there in the chamber for several hours, as one does for these kind of events, before I was called by the speaker. And, yes, I mean, I sat there, listening to her party rewriting history as far as I was concerned. The United Kingdom that they were describing under Thatcher was not the one I lived in. It wasn't the one my constituents had lived in. And it certainly isn't the one that was there when she left.

GROSS: Now, you had said that you always get nervous before...

JACKSON: Yes, yes.

GROSS: ...Going on stage. And I'm wondering if that's changed with age in the sense that - I know some people feel, as they get older, that they can take more chances and enjoy things more because...

JACKSON: I did a play with the most marvelous actress called Mona Washbourne. It was called "Stevie." It was about the poet Stevie Smith. And she - I think Mona came, I think, from a theatrical family. She'd certainly appeared, I think, on a professional stage at a very young age - I mean, 8 or 9. She had a very successful, highly honored career. I mean, she was a marvelous, marvelous actress. Her reputation in the theater was absolutely secure. She sat on the sofa before the curtain went up. I sat on a chair by her side. And every performance, she sat on that sofa, and she would say, please, God, let me die. Please, God, let me die. And then the curtain went up, and there she was, firing on all fronts. It doesn't get any less. In fact, I think, the more you do, the worse it gets 'cause you realize how desperately easy it is to act really badly and how very, very hard it is to act well.

GROSS: Well, it's been a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you so much.

JACKSON: Well, thank you.

GROSS: My interview with Glenda Jackson was recorded in 2019. She died June 15. She was 87. After a break, we'll go back to 2005 and listen to my interview with Neil Diamond. The current Broadway show "A Beautiful Noise" is about Diamond and features his music. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going back into our archive to listen to our 2005 interview with Neil Diamond. His life is the subject of the current Broadway musical "A Beautiful Noise," which features his songs. In 2018, Diamond revealed he'd been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. Neil Diamond started out writing songs for a music publishing company in the hopes that someone would record them. He wrote The Monkees' No. 1 hit "I'm A Believer," but it was Diamond himself who made most of his own songs famous - songs like "Sweet Caroline," "Solitary Man," "Cherry, Cherry" and "Girl, You'll Be a Woman Soon."

As a lot of his contemporaries fell off the charts, he moved from teen pop to adult pop, including his duet with Barbra Streisand and his hits from his remake of "The Jazz Singer." Before we get to the interview, let's hear the piece about him that our former rock historian, the late Ed Ward, recorded in 2011 after a compilation of his songs was released.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I'M A BELIEVER")

NEIL DIAMOND: (Singing) I thought love was only true in fairy tales, meant for someone else but not for me. Love was out to get me. That's the way it seemed. Disappointment haunted all my dreams. Then I saw her face. Now I'm a believer, not a trace of doubt in my mind. I'm in love. I'm a believer. I couldn't leave her if I tried.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

ED WARD: Probably the strongest negative reaction I've ever gotten to anything I've written was when I panned a Neil Diamond show during my stint at Austin's daily newspaper. His fan club newsletter picked it up, and for 2 1/2 years, we got letters denouncing me, the last of which came from Vanuatu in the South Pacific. But my disappointment in the show was based on remembering where Diamond had come from. Diamond was born in Brooklyn to immigrant parents in 1941 and got a guitar for his 16th birthday. Almost immediately, he started writing songs and performing them with a neighbor. He went from one unsuccessful record contract to another, from the most obscure to a one-single deal with Columbia.

Next came a songwriting contract with Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, which kept him fed but produced only six songs in one year. He'd been mentored by the great songwriting team of Jeff Barry and Ellie Greenwich after Greenwich sang backup on a demo he'd cut. And after getting fired from Leiber and Stoller, he asked Barry and Greenwich if they'd take a chance on him. At that point, something happened.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "CHERRY, CHERRY")

DIAMOND: (Singing) Baby loves me. Yes, yes she does. The girl's out of sight, yeah. Says she loves me, yes, yes she does - going to show me tonight. Yeah. Hey. She got the way to move me, Cherry. She got the way to groove me. She got the way to move me. Cherry, baby. She got the way to groove me. All right.

WARD: Barry and Greenwich scored him a deal with Bert Berns' new label, Bang, and his second single, "Cherry, Cherry" wound up in the top 10 in 1966. Suddenly, he was writing more than he could record. So Talleyrand Music, the company Barry and Greenwich had set up with him, was placing his songs all over the place.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "RED RED WINE")

TONY TRIBE: (Singing) Red, red wine goes to my head, makes me forget that I still need her so. Red, red wine…

WARD: "Red Red Wine," for instance, found its way to the Jamaican expat community in London where a guy named Jimmy James recorded it, only to be scooped by Tony Tribe, who put a reggae beat to it. Twenty-five years later, the British band UB40 recorded it on an album of the songs they'd grown up with, released it as a single and topped the British charts, and eventually many others, too, over an amazing two-year period. There was no doubt he was hot. The Monkees' version of "I'm A Believer" was 1967's top-selling song. And so it was no surprise when The Box Tops, led by Alex Chilton, chose a song of his to record the next year.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "AIN'T NO WAY")

THE BOX TOPS: (Singing) Ain't no way to get you out of me. Oh, baby, there ain't no way in the whole wide world. I'm about to see. By and by, you're all I ever need. You know when I forget how good life is, you bring it home to me. And I say hey. Come on. Hey. Come on. Hey. Come on. Hey. Come on. Hey. Come on. Hey. Come on. Hey. Come on. Hey. Come on. Hey. Come on. Hey. Come on. Hey. Come on. Hey. Ain't no way. Oh, don’t you know that there ain’t no way…

WARD: Still, Diamond was determined to have his own career and worked hard at it, even if he, too, sometimes recorded excellent versions of other people's songs.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MONDAY MONDAY")

DIAMOND: (Singing) Monday, Monday, so good to me. Monday morning - it was all I hoped it would be. Oh, Monday morning, Monday morning couldn't guarantee that Monday evening, you would still be here with me. Monday, Monday...

WARD: The things at Bang were untenable. Bang's view of who he was and his own idea were at odds with each other. And when he and the label locked horns over what his next single should be, it resulted in a lawsuit for ownership of his recordings, which went all the way to the Supreme Court, which found in his favor in 1977. Bert Berns, the label's head, had died during the course of it all, and by early 1968, Neil Diamond had signed to another label and was on his way to superstardom.

GROSS: That was the late Ed Ward recorded in 2011. For many years, he was FRESH AIR's rock historian. Now let's hear my 2005 interview with Neil Diamond.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: I think it's fair to say your first big break - correct me if I'm wrong - was when you had recorded a demo and the songwriters Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry heard the demo and they really liked you, and they - some of their songs are "Da Doo Ron Ron," "Chapel Of Love"...

DIAMOND: "Be My Baby."

GROSS: "Be My Baby," yeah. So how did they hear you?

DIAMOND: I was making a demo. Usually, when you sold a song to a publisher, they would allow you to go in and make your own demo, which was invaluable experience to me. But I went and made the demo and hired Ellie as a backup singer, which she did despite the fact that she was having huge hits. She liked to sing in the studios with the other girls. And so I hired her for this session. And she liked something about what I was doing, my writing or my singing. And she brought me to her husband, Jeff. And he liked something about what I was doing. I don't know if he liked the writing or the singing, but one liked one and the other one liked the other. So we started a working relationship. We were both working for the same music publisher. And I kind of got let go by that music publisher. And I asked Jeff and Ellie if they were interested in producing me.

GROSS: In the first session that you did with them, you recorded "Solitary Man." Did you like the idea of horns on this?

DIAMOND: I liked the idea of anything on those records.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DIAMOND: I was just thrilled to be there.

GROSS: Well, let's hear "Solitary Man," which, I have to say, I think it's really a terrific recording.

DIAMOND: Thank you.

GROSS: Yeah. So OK, let's hear it. This is your first hit, yes?

DIAMOND: Yes, if you can call it a hit.

GROSS: That you recorded yourself, yeah? OK.

DIAMOND: Yeah.

GROSS: OK. So this is Neil Diamond, "Solitary Man."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SOLITARY MAN")

DIAMOND: (Singing) Melinda was mine 'til the time that I found her holding Jim, loving him. Then Sue came along, loved me strong. That's what I thought, me and Sue. But that died, too. Don't know that I will, but until I can find me the girl who'll stay and won't play games behind me, I'll be what I am - a solitary man, solitary man. I've had it to here...

GROSS: That's Neil Diamond. Now, did you write this song for yourself or for somebody else?

DIAMOND: No, I wrote this for myself. I had a contract with Jeff and Ellie. And I started to focus in on just what I wanted to do. And so "Solitary Man" was written for me and for the first sessions that I was to do with Jeff and Ellie.

GROSS: So how did "Solitary Man" change your idea of what you wanted from your musical life?

DIAMOND: Once I had a chart record of my own, I was no longer a kid knocking around on the streets. I was now - well, we didn't call them artists at that time. We called them vocalists. But I was a vocalist, and it was a whole different thing. I was writing for myself, so I had to really dig in and write as well as I possibly could. And I have to say, before that time, I don't know if I was doing that. I was just writing, and writing, and writing, maybe just to get an advance from a publisher. But there was not a lot of me in those songs. And "Solitary Man" was the first of a long line of me songs, my experience songs.

GROSS: When you were working in the rock 'n' roll Tin Pan Alley, were you actually - and you were writing for music publishers. Were you actually going to an office building every day to write?

DIAMOND: When I was signed to a staff publishing company, a music company, I would go in as often as I possibly could. The subway train from Brighton Beach, where I lived, that took us to New York University went also a few more stops further to Tin Pan Alley. So there was a lot of cutting of classes, going up and trying to peddle the newest song, probably that I had written in one of the classes at school. So it was an attraction. It was a seduction that was just a couple of stops beyond NYU. And I unfortunately spent a lot of time skipping that, the NYU Eighth Street stop, and going up to the 49th Street stop, which is where Tin Pan Alley was. And that was great fun, too.

It was that era when rock 'n' roll had just come in. And anybody, anybody, could get a listening to their music because the publishers didn't understand what rock 'n' roll was. And they were willing to listen to anybody and sign anybody that they thought might have the vaguest chance of having some success. So it was an open game for a number of years. But then things got serious. I got married. I was having a baby on the way. And I had to get serious. Enough with this fun.

GROSS: When you were working as a songwriter for publishers, writing for other people, were you writing for specific people? Were you writing with specific singers in mind?

DIAMOND: Well, that's usually how it went back then, although I was never a good enough writer to kind of write for some other singer, to understand what they did best - the keys, the kind of song. Usually, you were told that so-and-so is coming up for a session in three weeks, and they need a song of this type. And it was usually as close as possible to the song that they had previously, which was a hit if it was a hit. And you had to write a - kind of like a copy of that in a way, because that's the way it worked in those days. You have a hit record, and your next record sounds or should sound as much like the hit record as you can make it. But I wasn't very good at it. That's probably why I spent eight years down there in Tin Pan Alley and had very little success, nothing more, really, than selling a song and taking a small advance for it to get me through the week.

GROSS: We're listening to my 2005 interview with Neil Diamond. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF PETE YORN SONG, "ON YOUR SIDE")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2005 interview with Neil Diamond. The current Broadway musical, "A Beautiful Noise," is about his life and features his songs.

Now, The Monkees did a couple of your songs - "I'm A Believer" and "A Little Bit Me, A Little Bit You." Did you write those with them in mind or for yourself? I'm trying to think of what the chronology was. Like, you started recording in - what? - like, '67.

DIAMOND: '66.

GROSS: '66. OK. And...

DIAMOND: Yeah.

GROSS: What year are The Monkees? Like, is that after that?

DIAMOND: I think '67 - something like that. I recorded a couple of songs, including "Solitary Man" and "Cherry, Cherry," which was a big hit. And because of that hit, the people who were producing The Monkees called and said, we like "Cherry, Cherry." Do you have any other songs? I said, well, I don't have anything like "Cherry, Cherry," but I have an album coming out soon, and I'll send it over, and take your pick.

GROSS: You know, it's funny. The common wisdom goes when telling the story of, like, songwriters from the Brill Building and The Beatles is that The Beatles changed everything. After The Beatles, bands started writing their own songs. It drove out the professional songwriters. But, of course, The Monkees are a band that's, you know, a kind of fabricated band copying The Beatles. And you have this tremendous success writing for them. And in that sense, like, The Beatles' success inadvertently really helped you as a songwriter.

DIAMOND: Oh, yeah, no question about it. But it was not only in the sense of The Monkees doing a couple of songs. It was in the sense that the doors began to open for songwriters who were able to sing, and I just happened to be one of them who'd been knocking around the streets for years and now, suddenly, was getting a new and fresh listening to my work. So The Beatles made an enormous change, as did Bob Dylan. They brought the songwriter up to the front of the line and said, you know, you guys do it. And it had a devastating effect on the music publishing business in Tin Pan Alley, but it opened up many doors for people like me.

GROSS: My guest is Neil Diamond. Here's his version of "I'm A Believer."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I'M A BELIEVER")

DIAMOND: (Singing) I thought love was only true in fairy tales - meant for someone else but not for me. Love was out to get me. That's the way it seemed. Disappointment haunted all my dreams. Then I saw her face. Now I'm a believer - not a trace of doubt in my mind. I'm in love. And I'm a believer. I couldn't leave her if I tried. I thought love was more or less a given thing.

GROSS: One of the things that has kept you so musically successful over the decades is your tours. Would you describe a little bit how you put together your idea of what a show should be?

DIAMOND: It's a good question. I've never worked with a director. I like to put the shows together myself with the help of a lot of other people, including the band - my band who have been with me for many years. And we start right at the beginning. I have a huge blackboard in the studio, and we start with the songs that I want to include and that we haven't included in previous shows. I try to find a good opening song, a good closing song, which is usually - traditionally for me has been "Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show" because it kind of sums up what I'm about and what I'd like the world to be about. And you fill in, and you try to make something interesting. And each song has to have something that's new and fresh and original about it even if it was written 30 years ago.

GROSS: What about figuring out what to wear for your shows?

DIAMOND: I never thought about it. I have a clothing designer. His name is Bill Whitten. He's been doing my stage clothes for 35 years now. And so I let Bill take the lead in that. I have comments, obviously, things I like and don't like. But Bill handles that, and I think he decided in the mid-'70s that he wanted to go with glass beading and sparkly kind of things basically, I think, because no one else was using it and it would become mine. So, OK, I tried it, and I think it worked very well, although it's become a point of contention. I mean, just the fact that you bring it up is what has been happening over the years. I'll get a review for a show, and they'll think the show is wonderful, but they'll put down the shirt, which is terrific. I'd rather have them put down the shirt than something important. But I've been wearing those kind of shirts, and now it's - maybe it's tapering off now. But the shirts have been part of my persona on stage for as long as I can remember.

GROSS: We're listening to the interview I recorded with Neil Diamond in 2005. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF EDDIE GOMEZ'S "MATCHMAKER")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Neil Diamond in 2005. The current Broadway musical "A Beautiful Noise" is about his life and features his songs. I want to ask you about another song that you wrote and recorded - a big hit for you, "Sweet Caroline," which is now played at Red Sox games at Fenway Park, and maybe you know the story of why that is. But let's start with the song itself. Is there a story behind the writing of the song?

DIAMOND: Yeah. I think so. I was heading down to Memphis for my first recording session down there. There were some producers I wanted to work with. And I only had two songs written, and in those days, a session was three hours, and you usually had three songs that you recorded. So the night before the session, at some motel in Memphis, I knocked out this song "Sweet Caroline." It was one of the fastest songs I've ever written, and we recorded it the next day. And it became one of my biggest songs, if not the biggest song. But songs usually don't come like that. There's usually a lot of work and teeth gnashing and agony and torment over any of these songs. But that one just popped out, and there it was. And here it is now. Still, people can sing it.

GROSS: It's also sung a lot in bars.

DIAMOND: Well, the fact is that it's fun and easy to sing with. And I think that that's the bottom line as far as that song is concerned. It's easy to sing. It's fun. People like to sing it. And that's why it's popular in bars - 'cause anybody can sing it no matter how many drinks you've had.

GROSS: Well, Neil Diamond, thank you very much for talking with us.

DIAMOND: My pleasure, Terry.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SWEET CAROLINE")

DIAMOND: (Singing) Where it began, I can't begin to know when, but then I know it's growing strong. Was in the spring, and spring became the summer. Who'd have believed you'd come along? Hands, touching hands, reaching out, touching me, touching you. Sweet Caroline, good times never seemed so good. I've been inclined to believe they never would. But now I look at the night, and it don't seem so lonely.

GROSS: My interview with Neil Diamond was recorded in 2005. In 2018, he revealed he was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. The Neil Diamond musical, "A Beautiful Noise," is currently on Broadway. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll feature our interview with Janelle Monae. She grew up wanting to perform on Broadway but became famous for her afrofuturist funk, soul and hip-hop. She also co-starred in the films "Glass Onion," "Hidden Figures" and "Moonlight." Monae, who identifies as nonbinary, has a new album called "The Age Of Pleasure." I hope you'll join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF NEIL DIAMOND SONG, "AMERICA")

GROSS: To keep up with what's on our show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "AMERICA")

DIAMOND: (Singing) Far - we've been traveling far without a home but not without a star. Free - only want to be free. We huddle close and hang onto a dream. On the boats and on the planes, they're coming to America, never looking back again. They're coming to America. Home - don't it seem so far away? We're traveling light today in the eye of the storm, in the eye of the storm. Home, to a new and a shiny place - make our bed, and we'll say our grace.

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