Kent Walker

DATE April 25, 2001 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Kent Walker discusses his book "Son of a Grifter"
NEAL CONAN, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Neal Conan, sitting in for Terry Gross.

The first lines of Kent Walker's new book explain a great deal. `I make my
living as a vacuum cleaner salesman,' he writes. `I've met a lot of good
liars in my day. None of them are as good as my mother.'

Kent Walker's mother is Sante Kimes. She's currently serving a life sentence
for the murder of Irene Silverman, a wealthy 82-year-old widow. Sante Kimes
and her other son, Kenny, killed Silverman as part of a scheme to steal her
$10 million town house in Manhattan. Twenty-five-year-old Kenny Kimes is also
in prison for the crime. The mother and son are suspects in other murder
cases in California and the Bahamas. Kent Walker is the son who got away. In
his new book, "Son of a Grifter," he says his mother started using him as an
unwitting accomplice when he was very little in crimes including shoplifting,
robbery and arson. Even so, he writes that his mother loved him fiercely.

Let me read back some of the descriptions you've written of your mother:
incandescent, superhuman force. You write that she loved you with an
unconditional, all-enveloping, fearsome, enormous love. A fearsome love?

Mr. KENT WALKER (Author, "Son of a Grifter"): Very fearsome. She was on both
sides. She could be as evil as evil can get, and she could be as loving as
loving can get. But the best way to describe my mother, not just her
personality, but why she was able to get away with so much, is that there's
absolutely nobody on Earth who was easier to love than my mother. But there's
also no one easier on Earth to hate, as the same person.

CONAN: There was one incident when you were small, when you were in a car,
parked outside of your house. Your mother rushes into the car and realized
that she'd forgotten something inside a folder. Can you tell us what happened
after that?

Mr. WALKER: Yeah. I was about seven years old, and Mom asked me to go
upstairs and grab a folder for her and I did. And come running down the
stairs, and right when I got to the front door, the house blew up and I was
thrown into the front yard and had the wind knocked out of me, bruised up
pretty good, and probably the first arson I guess I participated in with my
mother.

CONAN: But also, she had just sent you into that house, where she knew a bomb
was about to go off. She'd set the bomb.

Mr. WALKER: Well, it's a good example of what she's like. I don't think that
she wanted her son killed, but I think what it was, is that there's a
situation at hand, she had to make a decision right there, and I was the only
tool available to her. And she might have thought it'd be faster for me to do
it, she might have thought it might be less risk to her. I don't think so.
But I've wrestled with that one for a few years.

CONAN: I think in the next paragraph, you write how fiercely she loved you,
this mother who sent her seven-year-old son into a house that she knew was
about to blow up.

Mr. WALKER: I'm not sure she knew that house was going to blow up. I know
that house was meant to burn, but she wasn't very good at her trade of arson.
She either used too much stuff or not enough, usually. And I remember she was
pretty emotional. I know it surprised her.

CONAN: Initially, you were used as a decoy for her, when you were a little
kid. Sante would use you, I guess, to distract clerks while she was
shoplifting?

Mr. WALKER: Yeah, I was a cute little boy who people loved to pinch the
cheeks on, and she'd introduce us and then she'd go do her thing.

CONAN: And I guess there's another level of protection that people assume a
mother with a little kid is not going to be a criminal.

Mr. WALKER: Yeah, it's the perfect diversion. It's a perfect diversion.
You know, she looked wealthy, no matter what her financial situation was. She
was a beautiful woman, which I think sometimes people are more forgiving to
people like that. And then, you know, put a little boy with that that's
always dressed well and taught to have good manners, it's probably the best
diversion you can have.

CONAN: At various times, your mother would hit you with her fists. She beat
you with a wire hanger, would scream at you in incandescent rages that you
describe. She tried to break up every relationship you ever had with a girl
or later with women and especially your wife. She hated and abused your wife,
slipped her a Mickey at one point to knock her out, hired guys to sleep with
her and then take pictures to prove to you that she was being unfaithful. She
did all these things and...

Mr. WALKER: I was there.

CONAN: Yeah. And maybe for an old scam artist, maybe the biggest insult was
that she would later try to scam you.

Mr. WALKER: Well, she would not try, she would later do it. When I was
younger, I just didn't know anything else. This is what I knew, you know?
Most kids, they have the normal household where they come home, they have
dinner, go to bed, wake up, go to school. Part of my household was that we'd
go steal stuff. I didn't know anything different. When I was old enough to
realize the difference, I went through some confusing times. Hey, this is my
mother. This is my family. This is what I knew. This is who I loved.

As I got older, I had a brother that I felt needed protecting. And I also had
a stepfather who needed protecting also. And I thought I was the only one who
could do it. And so when you take those type of emotions, for every time that
I got hit, I'd have a month of absolute pure joy. Growing up on a beachfront
property in Honolulu is not a bad way to live. I miss that sometimes. You
know, our properties--you know, we weren't living in welfare housing; we were
living in mansions and beautiful homes. And outside references would envy
what I was. They didn't know what was going on on the inside, but that envy
also made it even more confusing.

CONAN: Was it fun, the con, the getting away with it, the stealing?

Mr. WALKER: Best way to put it is during the time, alls I felt was tension.
If someone had asked me at that moment, say, `Are you having fun?' I don't
think I could have said yes to that, but I do feel the void now. I miss that
excitement sometimes.

CONAN: But being with your mother was extraordinarily fun, right?

Mr. WALKER: It was. It could be. Ninety percent of the time this woman--I
mean, if they were going to put a definition for charisma, it should say Sante
Kimes. The woman was just a powerful force. No one could resist it. You'd
probably succumb to it. If she wanted you to be happy, you were the happiest
individual in the world. If she wanted you to be miserable, she could
accomplish that also.

CONAN: And often with the same people. You write that there was a--she would
describe burning people, using them up.

Mr. WALKER: Well, Sante's mind, I don't think anyone will ever figure it
out. I know I haven't. If it served her purpose to make sure that you were a
friend and that were happy, then that's what she could do. If it served her
purpose for you to be afraid of her, she can do it also, and she could do it
in an instant. It could change. You know, most people's emotional states is
a gradual process. With my mother's, it was instantaneous. It could be
turned off and on just like a light switch, which made her frightening, but
that's how she controlled people also.

CONAN: Sounds almost some of the same qualities as a cult leader.

Mr. WALKER: It'd be pretty frightening to think if she was ever able to lead
a cult, that's a cult that would be pretty scary. Wouldn't want to be around
that one.

CONAN: Describe her for us. What does she look like?

Mr. WALKER: My mother was a very beautiful woman, stunningly beautiful. We
would walk into a restaurant and every head would turn and see her. And it
wasn't just the way she dressed. She was flamboyant, but she did have a
beauty to her also, a smile that would just--it was contagious. It was hard
not to be in a good mood when she was happy. You know, her happy state was
almost spastic. It was on the line of where you're almost uncomfortable
'cause it's too euphoric, but also at the same time, you feel uncomfortable
not enjoying that happiness with her. It's just right there on that line.
Curvy woman--I can see why men would be attracted to her. She was a very
beautiful woman.

CONAN: Resemblance to Liz Taylor.

Mr. WALKER: Very strong resemblance to Liz Taylor. In fact, I remember one
time at a restaurant where people were asking her for her autograph thinking
that she was Elizabeth Taylor. And she played it to the hilt.

CONAN: There's a picture that she had on her wall where you say the
resemblance to Liz Taylor was striking, in fact, so striking that it probably
was a picture of Elizabeth Taylor.

Mr. WALKER: Yeah, I'm still wondering about that one, but that's how close
she looked to Elizabeth Taylor. Sorry, Liz.

CONAN: Well, also not unlike Elizabeth Taylor, she, in later life, had
problems with her weight.

Mr. WALKER: She's always had problems with her weight. You know, my
stepfather and her would go out to dinner and they would split meals. And
part of it was because my stepdad was cheap but part of it because Mom was
always on that perpetual diet. But then when she got home, it'd always be
mashed potatoes or scrambled eggs--I mean, not stuff that you'd find on a
Weight Watchers menu.

CONAN: And wonder why the pounds weren't coming off.

Mr. WALKER: She was a nervous eater, and unfortunately the environment she
created, she was always nervous, so...

CONAN: Kent Walker's book is "Son of a Grifter." We'll continue our
conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

CONAN: This is FRESH AIR. We're talking with Kent Walker, the author of a
new book about his life in crime, the "Son of a Grifter." It wasn't always
about the money with your mother. For many years, she lived as the wife of
Ken Kimes, a real estate developer, a millionaire many times over, $20 million
fortune you estimate, but that didn't stop the shoplifting and the arson.

Mr. WALKER: Made it worse. Made it worse. You know, when she was in search
for her millionaire, you know, my young mind, I knew she'd do it. I mean,
anything she wanted, she didn't stop until she got it. But I really thought
when Ken and me and Mom became a family, especially when Kenny came, that
would do it, OK? The bad stuff's behind us and...

CONAN: Kenny's your half brother born 13 years after you were born?

Mr. WALKER: Almost 13 years, right.

CONAN: Mm-hmm.

Mr. WALKER: And it made it worse, and I don't know if it was the combination
of Mom and Ken together, 'cause Ken brought a lot of strange character traits
to the relationship also that kind of fueled her. You know, he did not
disapprove of her criminal activity. In fact, he encouraged it. He liked
driving fancy cars without having to pay for them. And he had the money to
buy a dealership. But he also had the money to keep her out of trouble. You
know, it's a sad standard on the justice system, but let's face it, if you've
got millions to spend for attorneys, you're going to milk the justice system
and get away with stuff that the average person can't. And I think it made
Mom feel a little bit more infallible knowing that she could take the higher
risks and she had that million-dollar safety net just in case she got caught.

CONAN: One of the things that she liked to do was steal fur coats.

Mr. WALKER: It was an obsession with her. We lived in Hawaii. There's not a
real big need for fur coats in Hawaii. In fact, there's not a need for fur
anything in Hawaii. The weather's beautiful, yet she had 22 of them stashed
in her closet. And she wasn't selling them. She wasn't wearing them. She
was hoarding them. It was an impulsion. There was no reason for it. And she
still did it.

CONAN: Twenty-two fur coats with the linings all ripped out.

Mr. WALKER: Every one of the linings ripped out. Never saw a lining. I
wouldn't know what a fur coat lining looked like if I saw one today. I can
tell what a fur looks like, though.

CONAN: She also collected people, you describe them in the book, as her
maids, people who she would later be convicted of holding in involuntary
servitude, as slaves.

Mr. WALKER: People that she had to control. She couldn't control me, so she
controlled the maids.

CONAN: Now describe how this worked. She would drive down to Mexico?

Mr. WALKER: There was a lot of different ways. She'd drive to Mexico. She'd
talk friends into finding them for her. The only requirement for the maids,
that they be naive and that they would be illegal aliens and she'd get them,
talk them in, you know, the ultimate sale, live in a fancy home and be part of
this big family and, you know, never paid any of them, but that was an
agreement. They all knew that they weren't going to get paid as far as I know
when they first came to work for us. But they had no idea what was in store
for them.

CONAN: And what was in store for them?

Mr. WALKER: First, she had the honeymoon where everything was wonderful.
Mom would buy them little gifts. They were called the daughter she never had.
Then the transition where she would ask them to do more and more, and then the
final round where she was just downright mean to them where obsessively
clean--I remember as a kid having to scrub the patios out with disinfectant.
You know, my hands were raw. And I started balking at that job, so she got
the maids to do stuff like that. I remember walking into our garage and the
ammonia was so strong I thought I was going to pass out and two of the maids
were still in there and they wanted to come out and get fresh air. Mom
wouldn't let them do it, 'cause that floor had to be disinfected. And so we
had pretty healthy fires, I guess.

CONAN: Would she beat them?

Mr. WALKER: I saw two acts of violence while I was there. And a lot of the
accusations I never was there to witness, but from what I've read and
depositions from that case, I guess she was very, very violent with them.

CONAN: Did you at any point think of this as, you know, my mother, my family
is keeping slaves?

Mr. WALKER: Involuntary servitude is a word that I should have known when I
was a teen-ager, but I learned very, very well in the mid-'80s.

CONAN: Mm-hmm.

Mr. WALKER: You know, I put a couple of those maids on a plane in the middle
of the night. They'd come up to me, `Hey, I've got to get out of here.' And
the reason why I would help them leave wasn't so much that I think they were
being beaten up is because how hard they had to work and how they unhappy they
were and how they missed their family. I had empathy. I said, you know, if
it was me, I'd want someone to help me get out of here, so I did.

CONAN: Eventually enough of them went to the police that your mother faced
trial, federal charges. You don't see a lot of slavery trials.

Mr. WALKER: There was two that I'm aware of after researching this that were
even brought to trial. And I might be wrong. I think this is the only case
that was actually won as far as a conviction for involuntary servitude.

CONAN: And your mother served time in a federal penitentiary for that.

Mr. WALKER: Yes. Yes. In fact, those three or four years is probably more
responsible for what's become of Kenny and my mother today than any other
time.

CONAN: Why's that?

Mr. WALKER: Well, my mom felt betrayed number one. Whether she was or not,
that's moot. It's just what she felt. That was a time frame where I believe
Kenny's fate was pretty much sealed. And when she got out, she was just so
angry, so much tension and anger built in there, that no one could contain
that kind of rage. And that's when things in my mind went from grifters to
the next level.

CONAN: Did she change her behavior with the maids?

Mr. WALKER: Well, after she got back from the jail, she did learn one lesson,
that you can't do that with illegal aliens. So her new maids were people from
homeless shelters. They spoke English and they were treated probably a little
bit better than the maids were, but that was her new form of servitude.

CONAN: I wonder how much did alcohol play a part in all of this. At one
point, you describe your stepfather and your mother knocking back--and this is
hard to believe--Was it five liters of alcohol a day?

Mr. WALKER: The schedule is incredible. I look back at this now and I can't
believe that they're still alive. Wake up, have a screwdriver, and the
screwdriver in the Kimes household was a screwdriver. It would screw you up
because it was half alcohol filled up with ice. The orange juice was pretty
much for color. It wasn't for taste. And those big Silo cups, those big
plastic cups, would be always full. I don't remember seeing an empty glass.
Then at noon, we had to switch to bourbon. And the bourbon--I mean, it looked
like pure bourbon. They'd put a splash of 7Up in there just so they could say
they had a light drink. And then in the middle of the night, they would
get up and make another one. They'd have the glasses sitting outside there in
the kitchen, the ice in it, so when they'd wake up, then they could put--they
drank bourbon and milk at night. And it was intense. I didn't realize it at
the time, but thinking about it now, it is just mind-blowing the amount of
alcohol that that house went through; expensive also.

CONAN: And at the same time, your stepfather and your mother were both
obsessed with physical beauty. I mean, if you're knocking back that much
alcohol every day, it's not part of the spa treatment.

Mr. WALKER: I don't know. I wouldn't want to go to that spa, but, you know,
the plastic surgery, hair dye. And, in fact, it was kind of weird because I
remember one time I saw Ken--and, you know, Ken was a very energetic man,
very driven man. I remember one time I saw him. He hadn't had a chance to
color his mustache and Mom hadn't colored his hair and stuff. And it
frightened me how old he really did look. And for a man that you think is 20
years younger than he really is and he looked 10 years older than what he
really was.

CONAN: What was your first rebellion against your mother? At what point did
you start to distance yourself from her life?

Mr. WALKER: The day my brother was born. Well, let's talk about that, the
day I found out about my brother. Kenny had been born a week before I even
knew. I was pretty upset with that one.

CONAN: I can image why.

Mr. WALKER: That's one of my defining moments where I remembered, `OK.
Something's not right here.' And that's when I first had thoughts of bolting,
getting away from the situation, but, you know, I very quickly fell in love
with my little brother. He was a great kid. And Ken and I had become
attached. And, you know, it was pretty confusing for a teen-ager to have his,
you know, 60-odd-old stepfather beg you not to go anyplace because he needed
protection from my mother. And it worked. I actually felt kind of
responsible for him in that respect. He made me feel guilty for even thinking
about leaving.

CONAN: And the story after that, your story, is a constant series of attempts
to get away and then being reeled back in.

Mr. WALKER: The most relentless thing that my mother did to me is that she
would never leave me alone. I fought it, but she got me one way or the other.

CONAN: You didn't even know that she was pregnant with your...

Mr. WALKER: My mother's always battled--the story is when I was born, I
guess I was fighting to get out a little bit too much and it messed her
insides up. And she would constantly swell up. I mean, her stomach would
swell up like a beach ball. And I'll be honest with you, I feel like a
complete idiot now. Even at 12 years old, I should have known that she was
pregnant 'cause all the signs were there. But she wore the big clothes and
she always battled her weight and she always had her stomach where it would
blow up like that. And so I didn't catch it. I didn't catch it. I'd come
home one day after she'd been gone for a couple of weeks and said, `Hey,
surprise, you have a little brother.' And believe me, I was surprised. I
was a one big surprised guy.

CONAN: And in retrospect, you conclude that she got pregnant in order to get
a better hold on Kent Kimes and his millions of dollars.

Mr. WALKER: Yeah, I don't think there's one thing that my mother ever did
that was not calculated out to fit her plan. And the birth of my baby brother
was definitely, definitely the purpose to snag and keep her millionaire.

CONAN: Kent Walker's book is called "Son of a Grifter." We'll continue our
conversation in the second half of the show and talk about the progression
from con games to murder. I'm Neal Conan. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

(Credits)

Unidentified Woman: This is NPR, National Public Radio.

(Soundbite of music)

CONAN: Coming up, more about the woman who the tabloids called the Dragon
Lady. We'll continue our talk with Kent Walker, the other son of convicted
killer Sante Kimes. Also the music of improviser and saxophonist Anthony
Braxton, modern jazz maverick.

(Soundbite of music)

CONAN: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Neal Conan.

My guest today is Kent Walker. His new book, "Son of a Grifter," tells of
life with his mother, Sante Kimes, and his younger half brother, Kenny
Kimes. Sante and Kenny are now serving life sentences for murder. Kent
Walker is raising a family and selling vacuum cleaners in California. In his
book, Walker describes his mother's many cons and crimes, and how he was
finally able to struggle free of her influence. Last year, Sante and Kenny
were convicted of the murder of 82-year-old Irene Silverman in New York City.
They're suspects in at least three other murders. Earlier, Sante served
time for holding illegal aliens in involuntary servitude in her home.

Kent Walker, you said after your mother got out of prison, she was so angry
and became even more violent. What was the first sign of that that you saw?

Mr. WALKER: Maybe I can illustrate it best this way. When you do something,
it causes an effect, and that effect's going to have a cause on your life.
Well, the things my mother was doing was causing some pretty negative effects
on her life and the life of her family. What started out as shoplifting for
lipstick then turned to cars. What turned into hiding stuff from stealing the
cars had to manifest to hiding stuff and stealing houses. And when you steal
houses, there's paper trails. And the only way to get the paper trail is by
having someone help you forge documents. And pretty soon, these people
forging documents are your friends, but then they become enemies because they
don't want to stand behind those documents. And you've got to do something
about those enemies. And then you do something about those enemies. It's how
this progresses. It's a very, very vicious circle.

CONAN: How many people do you believe your mother and your brother killed?

Mr. WALKER: I don't think we're ever going to know. I know the papers
account for Irene Silverman. David Kazdin was a friend. I have no doubt that
they committed those crimes. I did not know the banker in the Caribbean. I
have no doubt they did it, though.

CONAN: This was a Bahraini who vanished after having a meal with your mother
and your brother in the Bahamas.

Mr. WALKER: Yep, pretty bad dinner. Last time he was seen alive was in the
presence of Mom and Kenny, and in retrospect, it's impossible for me not to
think they're guilty. I wish they weren't, I really do. But they are.

CONAN: You suspect--you raise this in the book. You suspect that they may
have killed your stepfather.

Mr. WALKER: I'm still wrestling with that. You know, it's all retrospect and
a lot of reflection, but little things come up in my mind that I remember now
that should have been signs for me, and I think back about how the anger
escalated. I think back how Kenny's anger escalated. I mistook it for a
troubled young man in a situation that I was able to--I mean, I grew up in it.
I understood what he was going through. I remember the angers that I had, and
I was able to justify that. But looking back now, I can't say, yes, they had
something to do with my stepfather's death. I pray not. I really do.

CONAN: How did your stepfather die?

Mr. WALKER: He had an aneurysm. The largest blood vessel in the chest cavity
exploded, took him about 30 seconds to die.

CONAN: And he was an elderly man. Why were you suspicious at all?

Mr. WALKER: My father visited me a week before that, and we had a very
disturbing conversation. And at the time, I just chalked it up to life
a la Kimes. Hindsight, reflection, I think I have reason to be concerned.

CONAN: Do you think there was some drug or something that was used?

Mr. WALKER: You know, I don't know if it's medically possible, but I know he
had to have problems with blood pressure, but can you use stress as a tool for
murder? I don't know. Can you create an environment where it's just so
stressful enough to kill someone? I don't know.

CONAN: It came completely unraveled for your mother and your brother when
they went to New York City and tried to scam a woman named Irene Silverman and
eventually ended up murdering her. And that's the crime that they were
convicted of. When they were arrested and later went on trial, you didn't go
to New York.

Mr. WALKER: No.

CONAN: Why not?

Mr. WALKER: I didn't. I knew they were guilty, number one. When I found out
about it--I read the paper--I knew they were guilty the minute I read the
paper, because I know them so well. But I was also afraid that they were
going to get away with it. Mom had gotten away with so much for so long, I
just was afraid. And it wasn't my first rodeo. The Mays(ph) case had
destroyed my life once before, and I thought I'd rebuilt it back up, but I
didn't want to go through that again. And this one was different. The
severity of the crime and the fact of where it happened, it just received so
much press, and the only time I thought about coming to New York was at
sentencing. I thought maybe I could show the court, you know, that Kenny, to
a degree, is a victim. I'm not justifying what he did in any way, shape or
form. He needs to be held accountable for his actions. But I still believe
that people need to understand that the kid never had a chance.

CONAN: At this point, you were working as a vacuum cleaner salesman in Las
Vegas, a job for which your mother had a great deal of contempt.

Mr. WALKER: Oh, she hated it. She hated it. Sante's boys are supposed to
be stockbrokers, grifters. They aren't supposed to be developers. They're
not supposed to be door-to-door salespeople. Not quite the glamour that she
had in mind.

CONAN: What was the...

Mr. WALKER: I think that's why I did it, in fact. Half of it, I really
enjoyed what I did, but part of it was a defiance to her. Every time she'd
tell me she didn't like it made me want to do it more.

CONAN: We've talked about this yo-yo effect where you would go away and then
come back in. What was the cause of the final break?

Mr. WALKER: An argument. They had told me they were broke. I don't know if
they pulled one over on me or not. But I think now in hindsight, once again,
that they were just taking one last shot to try to pull me into their stuff.
But I let them stay in my house. They came over, they said they were broke,
they needed someplace to stay. And I said, `Well, I have a large home, I've
got a beautiful home. I worked hard for it, so come stay with me.' And they
started bringing the maids in again. They start fighting with my wife again.
They moved in to my house to destroy my life, and I finally realized that and
looked at what was happening to my family, and I drew the line. I said, `This
is it, goodbye,' and never looked back.

CONAN: Did you ever blow the whistle on your mother?

Mr. WALKER: This is difficult, but I have more respect than most people do
for law enforcement. I like them. I've been around them more than most
people have also. I have empathy for them because I understand their job.
But one of the biggest frustrations I have is that I tried to hand them
Sante on several occasions, but they wouldn't listen to me.

CONAN: Tried to hand them Shan--you went in and informed.

Mr. WALKER: Yeah. I turned my mom in. And one time, it cost me a lot, you
know, and they just wouldn't listen.

CONAN: Let me read something from your book. It's from about this period.
`I gave up. You've heard me say that before. This is where you gave up on me
instead. By now, you probably don't like me too much and you sure don't
understand me. Let me guess what questions you'd like to ask. Couldn't I
have tried a little harder to get the police to listen? Why didn't I grab
Kenny and run? Why didn't I dump my mother for good after she tried to get me
to hurt Jeff David(ph)'--who was a family friend--`after the nonsense with
Roger the pimp, when I saw the picture of the maid's burned flesh, when
Sante was in prison after the second Port Lock fire'--this was an arson in
your home in Hawaii--`after I heard her confess to a murder?' You pose the
questions very well.

Mr. WALKER: Yeah. Those are probably the toughest questions I have because
those are the questions I ask myself continuously. Obviously, there's a lot
of regrets in the life of Kent Walker, and those are the questions I'm looking
for the answers for right now also. I did try. I'm a strong man. I
inherited my mother's strength. It's like I tell people, I would have made a
really good bad guy, but I didn't want to do the bad stuff. I wanted to do
the good stuff. And I guess those questions are the questions I'll be asking
myself for a long time.

CONAN: Kent Walker. His book about his notorious mother is called "Son of a
Grifter." More after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

CONAN: Now we continue with my conversation with Kent Walker, who's written a
family memoir called "Son of a Grifter."

What do you think is the difference between yourself and your brother? Why
are you on a book tour now and why is he in prison?

Mr. WALKER: Well, you've got the obvious. My brother killed people. I
didn't. But then you have the issues that lead up to that. How come I turned
out OK or, for the most part, not a murderer or criminal of any way, shape or
form? I was blessed because I had some real positive influences in my life as
a kid; fortunately, people who I love to this day and who have been hurt by
this also--one of my biggest regrets--who showed me what normal life could be
like. And in a way, I can thank my mother because I can remember the tension
of living that lifestyle, and I didn't want to live that tension. And that
was something that was taught to me at a young age. What was my tension
turned out to be Kenny's excitement. That excitement, if you perceive it in
that way, it is addicting, and it's insatiable. You cannot get enough of it,
and this is the only way it's going to end up.

CONAN: With the forced separation, Kenny obviously in one prison, a dark
fortress in upstate New York in Dannemora, and your mother in another prison
at Bedford Hills and rather a nicer prison, but with that separation, has
Kenny broken the thrall?

Mr. WALKER: No. I think that Kenny's starting to get it, starting. I think
he realizes that maybe he should have listened to me. I think he realizes why
a big brother fought so hard to pull him out of that situation. But he still
remembers that excitement, that thrill of getting away with it, the desire for
the big score. He wasn't immune to mom's charisma. No one was. But he got
addicted to it hard and fast. I think it'll be a long time before he
realizes, if he ever does, the magnitude of the situation. He still loves his
mother very much, and I think he still puts her well-being before his.

CONAN: He could have copped a plea and gotten off with a much lighter
sentence if he'd testified against your mother.

Mr. WALKER: Yep. I wish he did it.

CONAN: At the end of the book, you end with Kenny in prison and your mother
also, in New York state. They're both facing very, very long sentences and
fighting extradition to California, where they're wanted on additional murder
charges. Where does it stand now?

Mr. WALKER: Kenny was extradited to California. He's in Los Angeles now.
Mom is using the system. She's fighting it. And I think it's going to be a
very long time. I am told that Los Angeles will most likely look for the
death penalty. I have no idea what to expect on that.

CONAN: Either way, if your mother and Kenny are convicted in California and
executed, or if they go back and serve their sentence in the state of New
York, probably they're both going to die in prison.

Mr. WALKER: That's a given. That's a given. It's too late to do anything
for Kenny. And, you know, Mom, she had a good run. I mean, this sounds
crazy, a son saying this about his mother, but I wish she got arrested a long
time ago. I wish, you know, this didn't happen. It's my prayer that they
don't get executed, and it's a selfish prayer. I believe in justice, and the
life terms that they've received is a just sentence. I believe that. With
Kenny's situation especially, I don't think killing my brother's going to be
justice. It'll be vindictive. And my kids didn't do nothing, and I don't
want them to have to go through life knowing that their uncle was executed. I
don't know how to explain that to them.

CONAN: What do you tell them now about their grandmother? Your oldest
daughter was groomed to take your old role as the dodge, as the diversion.

Mr. WALKER: I wouldn't say that she was groomed, but I would say that she was
enticed. You know, my oldest has had a very hard time with this, and I want
to pull her back out. I want to make her happy again. My two younger ones,
I'm concerned about. I'm not quite sure how to do it, and I'll find somebody
to help me. But my kids have got a dad going to make them proud, and I'm
going to make sure that they come through this as unharmed as possible. It's
difficult.

CONAN: Throughout this interview, we've been calling your mother Sante.
What's her real name?

Mr. WALKER: Who knows? In fact, I saw her birth certificate, and I'm
convinced it's fake. It looks an awful lot like her writing, and it's an
official document that you can call to Oklahoma and say, `I need Sante's,'
or whatever the name was on it, `birth certificate,' and you'll get one. And
it'll have the official seal. And I'm here to tell you--I'm not trying to
hurt anyone's feelings--but she's that good. It's a fake.

CONAN: What names did she go by in the times that you knew her?

Mr. WALKER: I sat down and wrote down ever alias I remember, and I came up
with over a hundred different names that I just--some, she'd only use once.
Some, she would use many times. But there's Walker, there's Kimes, there's
Singrey,(ph) there's Chambers,(ph) there's Singers.(ph) There's so many, it's
confusing to pull them out of the air.

CONAN: And the first name, Sandy, Shantay, Santay.(ph)

Mr. WALKER: Yeah. First, there was Sandy, then it was Santee, then Sante,
then Shantay, but there was also Nancy and Beth and just...

CONAN: What's her background?

Mr. WALKER: As far as...

CONAN: Where's her family from, where her people are from?

Mr. WALKER: Don't know. And I've heard so many different stories that none
will ever--I don't think I can ever believe one. I've heard the Oklahoma
story, that she came from Oklahoma. I've heard that she came from
Pennsylvania. I've heard that she was on the streets with a prostitute mother
or that she came from a very affluent family who didn't know how to handle
her. I kind of like it that way. That makes me love everyone. I can't hate
anybody for the color of their skin that might be my brother or they are my
brother, but you understand.

CONAN: One of the odd things about this is that this woman, celebrated in the
tabloids as a consummate con artist, you point out that she really wasn't very
good at it.

Mr. WALKER: She was pretty good the short term, but she screwed up long term
every single time. She had nothing to show for her efforts.

CONAN: The last time you saw your mother was in prison.

Mr. WALKER: Yeah, last October.

CONAN: And had any of this made an impact on her? Had she changed at all?

Mr. WALKER: Yeah, she's changed. She's worse. I think she's lost her mind.
Now most people think she did that 50 years ago, but as far as the mother I
knew, she's gone. She's paraded these lies and these situations and spun them
and spun them and spun them to where I don't think she'll ever be capable to
know what the real truth is. I don't think she'll ever be capable to feel
guilty for what she's done. There'll never be any remorse. My mom's gone.
The person who I grew up with isn't there anymore.

CONAN: Even gone, is your mother still conning people in prison?

Mr. WALKER: I believe she is. In fact, I think she's the oldest woman in
history to get put in solitary confinement for carrying a shank. And last...

CONAN: A shank is a prison knife manufactured from something.

Mr. WALKER: Made of a pen, right. And, you know, there was talk--I read
reports that she was trying to get people to help her to escape also. She
probably would have done it if they didn't catch her. That's a scary thought.

CONAN: Kent Walker, thanks very much.

Mr. WALKER: Thank you.

CONAN: Kent Walker. His book is called "Son of a Grifter." Coming up, the
latest installment in our Avant Garde Made Easy series. This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Profile: Music of saxophonist Anthony Braxton
NEAL CONAN, host:

Now part three of our series Avant Garde Made Easy. We invited jazz critic
Kevin Whitehead to tell us about half a dozen modern jazz mavericks. Kevin
says that since 1970, no improviser has been attacked more fiercely or
defended more passionately than saxophonist Anthony Braxton. Like Duke
Ellington, Braxton doesn't call himself a jazz musician. He believes some
people use the word `jazz' as a label to try to limit what he can do. Braxton
describes himself primarily as a composer. He's written operas and pieces for
piano and for multiple orchestras, as well as for his own small groups. But
Kevin says that whatever else Braxton is, he's an original whose ideas enrich
the jazz language.

(Soundbite of music)

KEVIN WHITEHEAD reporting:

When Anthony Braxton was a kid in Chicago, he played hooky from school one day
to catch a parade and spied an adult he knew who had skipped work to be there.
Anthony rushed over to join him. It was his father. Braxton is fond of
marches because parades bring a community together. He's fascinated by the
social implications of music making and how music can be a force for positive
change.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: As a diehard integrationist and a firm believer in American
multiculturalism, Braxton won't restrict himself to any single style of music,
even if some people want African-Americans who improvise to just stick to
jazz. His typically angular and asymmetrical music has been criticized for
being too European.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: But you don't have to go to Europe to find precedence for that.
The ending of Eric Dolphy's 1964 solo version of "Love Me," made a few years
before Braxton began recording, anticipates his leaps out of the alto sax's
normal range, his extreme dynamic contrasts and quirky timing.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: In 1968, Braxton made his first solo album, "For Alto," which
inspired many other horn players, including Steve Lacy and Evan Parker, to
start playing solo concerts. Jazz saxophonists like Coleman Hawkins and Sonny
Rollins had played occasional a cappella solos, but Braxton showed how to
sustain an evening of them by building each one around a specific ideal or
two. One piece on "For Alto" uses trills of various speeds and intensity as
cornerstones of an improvised line. In this case, that line also sounds
informed by Asian solo flute musics.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: Later in that piece, Braxton uses a pet idea, alternating loud and
soft phrases to create the illusion of two saxophonists, one near and one far.
Here, one seems to interrupt the other, like the dummy heckling the
ventriloquist.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: "For Alto" was a conceptual breakthrough, but not everyone dug it,
and Braxton quickly acquired a reputation as a boogie man of the avant-garde.
To show his love for the jazz tradition, he's made a few albums with standards
which haven't pacified his critics. In 1974, he played a nice version of
Charlie Parker's "Ornithology," but used one of the extreme horns he sometimes
favors, a contrabass clarinet.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: From 1985 to '94, Braxton's primary vehicle was his great quartet
with pianist Marilyn Crispell, bassist Mark Dresser and drummer Gerry
Hemingway. Here, he really went into conceptual overdrive, layering several
pieces on top of one another, like Charles Ives, another composer who was
attentive to music's social role and loved marches, which he associated with
his father. In the quartet, Braxton might improvise on one piece, while
Crispell played a totally notated piano composition, and bass and drums played
a complex ...(unintelligible).

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: That may strike you as chaotic, but most of us perform such
complex maneuvers when, say, we surf the Net, listen to the radio and carry on
a conversation at the same time, or talk on the phone while keeping tabs on
two or three TV shows. For Braxton, playing or listening to multilayered
music can prepare us for a world where we're deluged with input. By his
logic, contemporary improvising shouldn't sound like bebop, which evolved in
an age of manual typewriters and prop airplanes. That makes sense. He's one
visionary who's grounded in the everyday life of our time.

(Soundbite of music)

CONAN: Kevin Whitehead is currently based in Chicago. Information about
Anthony Braxton and his music can be found on the FRESH AIR Web site,
www.freshair.com. Next week, pianist Cecil Taylor.

(Credits)

CONAN: For Terry Gross, I'm Neal Conan.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.