On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'

TERRY GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's Emmy week on FRESH AIR, featuring our interviews with some of this year's nominees. We'll start with Bill Hader, who became famous as a cast member of "Saturday Night Live." He's nominated for four Emmys related to HBO's dark comedy series "Barry," which he co-created and stars in, and won for IFC's "Documentary Now!" Last year, after Season 1 of "Barry," Hader won the Emmy for best lead actor in a comedy series.

Hader plays Barry, a Marine who has suffered from depression and PTSD ever since returning from Afghanistan. After feeling he was useless back at home, he became a hit man doing what he knew he was good at - shooting people. One hit he's assigned is in LA, where his job is to kill a young man who's having an affair with the wife of a crime boss. As Barry pursues his target - a personal trainer and acting student - Barry sits in on the acting class, ends up doing a scene and thinks maybe he can transform his life by becoming an actor.

In this scene from Season 1, Barry asks the acting teacher, Gene Cousineau, if he can join the class. Cousineau is played by Henry Winkler.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BARRY")

BILL HADER: (As Barry Berkman) Hey, Mr. Cousineau, I was wondering. Do you think I was good enough to be in your class?

HENRY WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) No, Barry, I don't. What you did was dog [expletive]. I mean, really, really awful. Dumb acting, I call it. Do you know why? Because acting is truth, and I saw no truth. So here's my advice to you. You go back to whatever nook of the world you call home, and you do whatever it is you're good at, because this is not it.

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) You want to know what I'm good at? Good at killing people. You know, when I got back from Afghanistan, I was really depressed. You know, I couldn't leave my house for months. And this friend of my dad's, he's like an uncle to me. He helped me out, and he gave me a purpose. He told me that what I was good at over there could be useful here. And it's a job, you know? Hey, the money's good. And these people I take out, like, they're bad people.

But lately, you know, I'm - like, I'm not sleeping, and that depressed feeling's back, you know? Like, I know there's more to me than that. But maybe - I don't know. Maybe there's not. Maybe this is all I'm good at. I don't know. Anyway, forget it. Sorry to bother you.

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) What's that from?

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) What?

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) Are you telling me that was an improvisation? Interesting. The story's nonsense, but there's something to work with. My class is not cheap.

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) Well, that's not a problem.

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) You pay in cash.

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) Yeah.

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) You pay in advance.

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) I can do that.

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) Next class tomorrow, 2 p.m. We start on time.

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) Absolutely.

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) What's your last name again?

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) Block, Barry Block.

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) You pay in advance.

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) Yeah. No, I know.

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) Gene M. Cousineau. I look forward to this journey.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: (Laughter) Bill Hader, welcome back to FRESH AIR.

HADER: (Laughter).

GROSS: I love the series.

HADER: Hi.

GROSS: Well, that clip kind of summarizes part of what the first season was about, Barry knowing that he's a good hit man but truly wanting a different life. And he has trouble speaking the truth on stage. But when he speaks it offstage, like he did in that scene, people don't always believe him because he seems so preposterous.

HADER: (Laughter).

GROSS: And that's a kind of constant thing in the series that when people, like, act the truth, people don't necessarily want to hear it. When they act the more, you know, stage version of the truth that's a distortion of the truth, people, like, give them accolades (laughter).

HADER: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I always find that's true, especially in art in general. It's the kind of harsh reality of something. You know, I think you could - kind of a cynical way, well, it doesn't really sell and things like that, which may be true. But I think also what we - in the writers' room, when we talked about it was, you know, Alec Berg, who co-created the show with me, we realized, you know, people just don't like hearing about it (laughter). You know? People like a nice story (laughter).

GROSS: It's a bummer (laughter).

HADER: (Laughter) It's a bummer.

GROSS: As one guy says (laughter).

HADER: Yeah, we - that was the thing we kept saying. I was like, oh, that was a bummer.

GROSS: (Laughter).

HADER: Yeah, that was, like - it was a real bummer. And so, yeah, a lot of times, the - you know, in Season 2, the whole - Henry Winkler's character, the acting coaching, Gene Cousineau, makes them do a truth exercise. Talk about your deepest truth of who made you who you are. And to be honest and real, that makes you an artist - and how, one, that's really hard to do and, two, do people even really want to hear that?

GROSS: Yeah. How did the idea of a hit man who wants to be an actor get started? Like, what was the germ of that idea?

HADER: Alec Berg and I were kind of put together by our mutual agent. This is back in 2014. And...

GROSS: Oh, so you weren't buddies? Like, somebody, like...

HADER: I knew him.

GROSS: ...Played matchmaker?

HADER: Yeah. Someone played matchmaker, and it worked (laughter).

GROSS: (Laughter).

HADER: Yeah. But we - we're in the same comedy circles and stuff like that. But we thought, oh, well, let's go and - you know, I had this deal at HBO and - to make a show. But I didn't know what the show was. And then we would sit. And we talked about one idea for a while, and we realized that, you know, it was kind of an idea that didn't have any stakes to it. We realized, like, we had a great pilot episode. And then, when we thought of what would be other episodes, we didn't have anything (laughter), which is kind of...

GROSS: Wait, what - so what was that first idea?

HADER: It was essentially me playing someone I grew up with in Tulsa, Okla. It was kind of the character - I was in a movie called "Hot Rod." And the character I played in "Hot Rod," it was kind of like a version of that guy. And it was very much, like, day-in-the-life, kind of meandering thing of this kind of wayward guy in Oklahoma. And it just was boring. (Laughter) You know?

GROSS: (Laughter).

HADER: Like, I just was like, I can't really get into this. I mean, we have bits. There's comedy bits. But where's the emotion? Where's the story? And really, where are the stakes to it, you know? And so we kind of had this breakfast. I remember a bummer breakfast - right? - where we both were like...

GROSS: (Laughter).

HADER: ...Kind of separately went, I don't think this idea works. It's kind of - doesn't really hold water. And I go, it should be stakes. And I remember he said, oh, you know, life and death, you know, that's the ultimate, right? Well, death, that - you know. And I just said, well, what if I was a hit man? And he went, ugh.

GROSS: (Laughter).

HADER: I hate hit men. And he said, hit man's like dog catcher. There's more in television and movies and - than there are in real life, you know? There's not - hit man, what is that, you know? I go, but what if it was me, you know? And it's not a guy - it's not, you know, the kind of cool guy with two guns in his hands with the long tie. Like, what if we - you know, in the black tie and the suit. You know, what if we made it real? And we talked about that.

And then - I'm not joking - we suddenly both got fixated on the idea of him being an actor. I don't know why. I don't know where it came from. We just both started talking about him taking an acting class. And we - and I remember specifically Alec going, oh, hit man who wants to be an actor is - that's funny. That's good. You know? And then we started seeing these interesting correlations of the conflict within that of, you know, a hit man wants to be in the shadows, but a actor wants to be in the spotlight. A hit man wants to be anonymous, but actors want to be known. A hit man wants to suppress his emotions, where an actor wants to constantly - you know, harnessing their emotions and all these things (laughter). So it was a funny - it just seemed, you know, the acorn, the seed of the idea could, you know, give us a tree that'd, you know, give us a lot of interesting stories and different branches and places to go off to.

GROSS: Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Hader. He's the co-creator, the star, co-writer and a director of the HBO series "Barry." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BRUNO COULAIS' "SPINK AND FORCIBLE")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: And if you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Hader. He first became known for his work as a performer and writer on "Saturday Night Live," and now he's the co-creator, star, co-writer, co-producer...

HADER: (Laughter).

GROSS: ...And one of the directors of the HBO series "Barry." And he plays a Marine who served in Afghanistan and returns home with a very guilty conscience. And when he comes home, the best work he can find is using the skill he has and becoming a hit man. But on his way to carrying out an assignment as a hit man in LA, he decides he really wants to be an actor...

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: ...And access all the emotions that he's been blocking. Yes. Sounds improbable, yes.

HADER: You know, when you say it, you're like...

GROSS: What? (Laughter).

HADER: ...Oh, man, I can't believe HBO said yes to this.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: No, but I love it because it ends up having - like, it has a lot of humor, but it also has, like, a surprising amount of emotional depth.

HADER: Yeah.

GROSS: And that leads us to the next clip I want to play. You know, in the second season, there is a kind of twist on the first clip that we played, where Barry is telling his acting teacher, Henry Winkler, that, you know, his buddy - that Barry's buddy was shot in Afghanistan when Barry was a Marine there. And Barry took revenge and killed the man he thought was the shooter, but it was the wrong man, and he's suffered from guilt ever since.

But what he's not confessing in this scene is, A, that he's a hit man and, B, that he's killed Cousineau's girlfriend Janice, who was a cop and was onto the fact that Barry was a hit man. That happened in Season 1. So in this part, Barry is telling his teacher Gene Cousineau, played by Henry Winkler, about the emotional aftermath of shooting the wrong man in Afghanistan.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BARRY")

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) Then they sent me to a hospital in Germany. And my family friend pulled some strings and got me discharged. After that, I didn't feel like I deserved a good life.

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) Holy [expletive]. Who else did you tell this story to?

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) In class? No one.

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) Good. So here's my advice - you never tell that story again as long as you live because, basically, you killed somebody, and you got away with it.

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) See - this is why I didn't want to tell you. This is why I didn't want to tell you because you're going to look at me differently. You're going to look at me like I'm a murderer, like I'm a violent piece of [expletive].

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) Listen to me - I have a son. I was terrible to this son. I was cruel. I was selfish. And there's nothing I can do to change that. But I don't want to be that guy anymore. And I pray that human beings can change their nature. Because if we can't, then you and I are in deep trouble.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: That's a scene from the HBO series "Barry," with my guest Bill Hader and Henry Winkler. And Bill Hader co-created, co-writes and also directs several episodes of the series. So that's just such a great scene about - now that we've told you you have to be honest, make sure you hide the truth. And another question raised in that clip that we just heard or - you know, are we capable of change? Can we change our nature?

HADER: Yeah.

GROSS: Is that a question you ask yourself a lot?

HADER: Yeah.

GROSS: I know I ask that question (laughter) all the time.

HADER: Yeah. Oh, yeah. You constantly - yeah, you're kind of going, am I stuck?

GROSS: Yes.

HADER: Am I stuck with these tools? Am I stuck with these neuroses? Am I stuck with...

GROSS: Yes, yes.

HADER: ...This personality thing?

GROSS: Yes.

HADER: Can I change it? And you keep falling back into it. And it's a part of life. As you get older, you start to get a little bit more, I think, worried about it because you go, oh, I'm still doing that, you know? (Laughter) It's, like, I still have, you know, these problems or whatever.

And, you know, again, it's - like I said, the writers room on "Barry" can just be like - it feels like a group therapy session where everybody kind of talks about, you know - I'm not going to name names or, you know, link things. But, you know, things like, oh, I have a tendency to exaggerate or lie, or I have a tendency to be emotionally cold. You know, these things that you see in your parents and you see in other people and your relatives. You know, a lot of people I know, they'll get together with their siblings and be like, do you do that? Yeah, I do that. Remember mom would do that?

You know, and it's like, oh, no, I can't shake that, you know. And can you shake that? And so it's more interesting to start a season with a question. You know, can you change your nature and try to figure it out while you're writing, you know, instead of having, like, in my mind, you know, a full theme of, you know, starting with an answer and trying to prove that.

GROSS: Was writing on "Saturday Night Live" - did that involve the same kind of emotional, like, vulnerability and sharing that you're describing happens in the writers room for "Barry?"

HADER: No.

(LAUGHTER)

HADER: That was more like, here's a dumb idea we have, and how do we - you know, I mean, if it was a satirical thing. But never the kind of emotional stuff, in my experience there. But it is more of - if you're going into more of a satire, kind of going like, is this a thing? You know what I mean? Is - are we satirizing something that, you know, is an actual problem or worth being satirized or - you know, and so, sometimes, you would be like, oh, I've experienced that. Or I know that feeling. Or I've seen that commercial. Or I saw that, you know - or whatever it is. And you just want to make sure that it holds water in some way but never the - I mean, yeah. No, I don't think sketch comedy would lend itself to, like, a sketch about, can you change your nature?

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So one of the pleasures of watching "Barry" is that there's a lot of intentionally bad acting in it and some intentionally bad, like, monologues in it because it's about acting students who, you know, don't necessarily know what they're doing yet. And, of course, Barry doesn't really know how to act yet. Sometimes, he really nails it because it's so consonant with the emotions that he's feeling at the moment. But other times, he doesn't get it at all. My favorite not getting it at all moment is when he does a short scene from "Glengarry Glen Ross." And it's the very famous scene. It's Alec Baldwin's scene where he's, like, the guy from headquarters who comes in to tell all these scam artists who are selling, like, terrible real estate, like, worthless real estate by phone to people. And he comes in to tell them that unless they shape up, they're fired.

HADER: Yeah.

GROSS: So the first thing I wanted to do is play Alec Baldwin doing the role.

HADER: (Laughter).

GROSS: OK. So here's Alec Baldwin in "Glengarry Glen Ross." And this is a David Mamet play and then movie.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "GLENGARRY GLEN ROSS")

ALEC BALDWIN: (As Blake) Put that coffee down. Coffee's for closers only. Look. You think I'm [expletive] with you? I'm here from downtown. I'm here from Mitch and Murray. And I'm here on a mission of mercy. Your name's Levene?

JACK LEMMON: (As Shelley Levene) Yeah.

BALDWIN: (As Blake) You call yourself a salesman, you son of a b****?

LEMMON: (As Dave Moss). I don't got to listen to this s***.

BALDWIN: (As Blake) You certainly don't, pal, 'cause the good news is you're fired. The bad news is you've got - all you've got just one week to regain your job starting with tonight, starting with tonight's sit. Oh. Have I got your attention now? Good, 'cause we're adding a little something to this month's sales contest. As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado. Anybody want to see second prize? Second prize - a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired. You get the picture?

HADER: OK. Now let's hear how you do it, Bill Hader, portraying Barry, who is in acting class. He wants to be a good actor. He doesn't really know how to do it. So here is Barry doing that scene from "Glengarry Glen Ross."

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BARRY")

HADER: (As Barry Berkman) Can you put that coffee down? Coffee's for closers only. You call yourself a salesman? You son of a b****. Hi. I'm from downtown. I'm from Mitch and Murray. So you've got - all of you got just one week to regain your jobs, starting with tonight. OK. We're adding a little something to this month's sales contest. As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado. Anybody want to see what second prize is? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired. But I've worked out a little...

WINKLER: (As Gene Cousineau) OK. OK. No, no, no. Stop. I'm not kidding. You're making me nauseous.

(LAUGHTER)

HADER: You're making me nauseous. Yeah.

GROSS: That is so funny. So so can you talk about deciding to do a really bad version of that very famous scene and the kind of, like, good-natured, like, I'm-here-to-give-you-prizes attitude that you have in acting it?

HADER: Yeah. He doesn't understand the context of it at all. Well, that was a thing that - it was helpful in the writing - was we said, we need to get the - Barry's problem in that episode is that he couldn't stand up for himself against Fuches, the Stephen Root character. And so he...

GROSS: The guy who's assigned to him - his hit - you know,

HADER: Yeah, his...

GROSS: His handler as a hit man, yeah.

HADER: Yeah, his hit man agent, if you will, who's constantly bullying him to do stuff. And we - I remember Alec and I talking and saying that he should learn how to do this in the acting class. The acting class should be the venue where he goes and learns how to be a more assertive person. And in writing that scene, then you go, well, he needs to start off as not very assertive, and Cousineau needs to tell him how to be assertive in the scene. But then he can take that into the real world.

And so it was just working backwards. So then it was like, OK, well, how's he going to be - not be assertive? So he should do a scene and not be assertive. And then I think I pitched, what if he did the Alec Baldwin scene, but nice? And everyone laughed, and there you are.

GROSS: Bill Hader stars in the HBO comedy series "Barry." He's nominated for five Emmys. We'll hear more of that interview after a break. And we'll hear from a former "Saturday Night Live" writer, John Mulaney. He's nominated for four Emmys, two for his work hosting and writing for "Saturday Night Live." I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF JAMES CARTER'S "ARTILLERIE LOURDE (HEAVY ARTILLERY)")

TERRY GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's Emmy week on FRESH AIR, featuring interviews with some of this year's nominees. Let's get back to my interview with former "Saturday Night Live" cast member and writer Bill Hader. He's nominated for five Emmys for his work on "Barry," which he co-created and stars in, and for being an executive producer of "Documentary Now!"

On "Barry," Hader plays a Marine veteran who served in Afghanistan, returned home with PTSD and feels lost with no purpose in life. At the suggestion of a family friend, he puts his war skills to use and becomes a hit man. One of his targets is an acting student, which leads Barry to take acting classes. He falls in love with acting. But an actor is supposed to reveal emotional truths, and it's Barry's job to hide the truth.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: The first time I interviewed you, I didn't know about this. But apparently, when you were on "Saturday Night Live," you had a lot of anxiety about performing live and even had, like, a panic attack I think while the show was on - while you were...

BILL HADER: Yeah, on the air I had a panic attack.

GROSS: ...Doing a bit playing Julian Assange.

HADER: Yeah, I was doing - playing Julian Assange, I had a panic attack. It was fun (laughter). No...

GROSS: Can you describe what happened then?

HADER: Yeah, I was doing Julian Assange. It was Jeff Bridges hosting. And I don't know what happened, but I suddenly went, I can't breathe. It felt like - it just felt like I was dying. I just - that's the only way I could describe it. It just - the panic - I think it was a bit of exhaustion, and also I've - I'm a very naturally anxious person.

You know, I'm - and in some ways, it's good because when I'm directing a thing, I'm eight steps ahead of things. And I'm trying to make sure things are in order and things like that. You know, we talk about the things that we wish we could change in ourselves. And, you know, I'm very, very anxious, and it could kind of make me slightly isolated or not being in the moment in a thing.

And on "Saturday Night Live," I felt like the majority of my time there - especially in the first half of it, at least - I wasn't in the moment. I was very, very, very nervous - heart palpitations, sweating. I would get dizzy. I would - you know. I remember once it got to the point where I became completely convinced that either a piece of equipment was going to fall on me (laughter) or that someone was going to storm the stage, that someone in the audience was going to run up on stage...

GROSS: Well, that seemed like...

HADER: ...And, like, attack us, you know?

GROSS: ...Unusual things to worry - like, a...

HADER: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it got crazy. It got a little...

GROSS: I thought you'd be worrying about, you know, like, I'm going to forget my lines. I didn't know that you were worrying about...

HADER: No, and you forget your lines and things. It went from that to that. So once I started getting into these other things, and I - you know, I started doing, like, TM. And, you know, you take, you know, medication. You go to a therapist. You know, I really - you know, exercise, changing my diet, I mean, all these things to try to get this under control. And it - you know, it's just acknowledging it, you know? You just kind of go, that's not happening, you know? Relax. But I think it got to a really bad place.

And I think in "Barry," it's not so much the anxiety of it. It was more of this idea that I was naturally good at impressions. And I was telling Alec Berg this when we were just starting, right? And I go, you know, I was always good at impressions. But I - what I always wanted to do was write and direct. I moved out to Los Angeles 20 years ago to be a writer-director. And I was a production assistant, and I did all these things and, you know, in a fluky way, got on "Saturday Night Live."

(Laughter) You know, Megan Mullally saw me in a show, I got on "Saturday Night Live," and I was not prepared for it. And I was saying it's so ironic that all the things I was writing and directing were never really - all the short films I made were never very - that good. And the scripts I were writing was - they were not good. I had a lot to learn. But I could kind of just do impressions. And the irony was that the show I did the impressions on, it was, like, slowly destroying me because of the anxiety of having to perform in front of a bunch of - in front of the nation, you know? I just - it's - I still get - I hosted a year ago, and I was a wreck.

And I told Alec this. And he went, I think that - I think that's the show. It's about a guy who thinks, you know, the thing he's naturally good at's destroying him. But the thing he wants to do, he's not very good at (laughter). You know? And he goes, well, that's an emotion you understand. We can write that.

GROSS: So I have to ask you about your eyes. On "Saturday Night Live," you always - you have very big eyes.

HADER: (Laughter).

GROSS: And you're one of those people who can, like, raise one eyebrow.

HADER: Yeah.

GROSS: And on "Saturday Night Live," you always used your eyes great for comic effect. On "Barry," staring into your - like, when I look at your eyes on "Barry," like, sometimes your eyes are saying, like, thousand-yard stare, the scare of a soldier who's seen combat too long. Sometimes it's a stare of someone with just, like, so much existential dread. And sometimes it's the stare of somebody who has just become overtaken by rage and anger. And I wonder if you think about your eyes at all or whether they - it just kind of happens that your eyes communicate so much.

HADER: Yeah, I don't think about it at all. Thanks for saying that. That's a nice compliment. It's funny you say that because I always - there's a funny thing that happened with one of our editors, Kyle Reiter, where we're - we were watching episode four. And I just went, do I have any other facial expressions? (Laughter) I just have the same facial expression this whole show. I just look angry.

And he played this clip, and it's me - he plays the take. I do the take. And then you hear our director of that episode, Liza Johnson, going, that was great, Bill. Do you want to do another one? And I go, no, I'm good. I think we got it. (Laughter) You know?

GROSS: (Laughter).

HADER: And he (laughter) - he's like, do - you know, do another take, man (laughter).

GROSS: Did you?

HADER: No. No, I would always do - I always do, like, two takes.

GROSS: (Laughter).

HADER: I'm like, did I say everything right? Are we good? OK, let's move on. You know...

GROSS: Is that because you want to save time and money and get everything made on time...

HADER: Yeah.

GROSS: ...And all that?

HADER: Yeah. I just am like - I'm - and I mean this. It's hard to talk about this without, like, sounding, like, you know, you're being modest or - I'm quoting Alec on this. Alec is always like - he said, you're the only performer, writer that I know that can't write for himself. I'm - I write best for Sally, NoHo Hank, Cousineau, Fuches. But as far as the Barry stuff is concerned, we're always coming around to Barry kind of last.

You know, episode seven of the season till I think two weeks before we shot it, Barry had no storyline. It was just like, what's he doing? He's just kind of hanging out. And Alec had to be like, Barry has no storyline, and the show's called "Barry." What is he doing?

GROSS: (Laughter).

HADER: But I was so focused on, you know, Fuches and Cousineau and, you know, Sally and her agent and all these other things that I wasn't even thinking about it. And then we were like, well, what if he got an audition? And then we kind of added that in at the eleventh hour, that whole storyline. And - but yeah, I - I'm the same way as an actor, too. I kind of, like go, is everybody happy with that? OK, we can move on. You know, I'm not precious. I'm weirdly - I like very few - in the edit, I like fewer choices. I kind of like having to be forced to make a decision as opposed to, you know, when I was in my early 20s, these idea - I thought was so romantic that Stanley Kubrick would shoot 150 takes.

(LAUGHTER)

HADER: And now I'm like, that's crazy (laughter). Why would you do that? That makes - and now that I've done it, I'm like, wait. That's insane. You know, you don't need to do that.

GROSS: Just watching the takes is going to take forever.

HADER: Yeah, but it doesn't - I think there's this thing of - the directors want actors to stop acting, so they pummel them to death with a lot of takes. And I just feel like that's someone who's not really respecting an actor and also someone that - all you have to say is, hey, could you try this, you know? (Laughter) Could you do less?

GROSS: Bill Hader, it's been great to talk with you again. I regret that our time is up. I look forward to Season 3 of Barry.

HADER: Yeah.

GROSS: Thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.

HADER: Thank you. This is a huge honor.

GROSS: Bill Hader recorded in June. He's nominated for four Emmys related to the HBO series "Barry" and one for IFC's "Documentary Now!" - on which he's an executive producer. We'll hear from another Emmy nominee, comic John Mulaney, who also got his start on "Saturday Night Live," after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF LARY BARILLEAU AND THE LATIN JAZZ COLLECTIVE'S "CARMEN'S MAMBO")

GROSS: Let's continue our Emmy week series with another nominee - comic, writer and actor John Mulaney. He spent five years as a writer on "Saturday Night Live," starting in 2008. He and Bill Hader, who we just heard from, co-created the character Stefon. Mulaney returned to host "SNL" twice in the past year. He's nominated for two Emmys for hosting "SNL" and two for his work on IFC's "Documentary Now!" Last year, he won an Emmy for writing his comedy special "Kid Gorgeous." Here's an excerpt from his "SNL" opening monologue last February.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

JOHN MULANEY: I'm very happily married now. I'm very happily married. My wife is Jewish, and I was raised Catholic, which you can all tell from the moment I walked out. That's not a big deal - getting married if you're Jewish and Catholic. Only a couple people asked about it. And they were my parents. Before we got married, my mother asked me if my wife was going to convert to Catholicism.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: You're right to laugh.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: It's a stupid question.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: I don't know, Mom. Let me go ask.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: Let me go see if a 29-year-old Jewish woman who doesn't like any of my suggestions...

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: ...Would convert to - what was it again? Roman Catholicism?

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: How would I even have that conversation? What, do you come home with a brochure, and you're like, hey, honey allow me to tell you about an exciting, not new organization.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: Don't Google us.

(LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE)

MULANEY: You know that strange look of shame and unhappiness I have in my eyes at all times, especially after sex? And it was all forced on me at birth? What if you voluntarily signed up for it?

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: That's John Mulaney hosting "Saturday Night Live" last February. John Mulaney, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You've hosted "Saturday Night Live" twice in the past year or so. Did you write your own opening monologues after having written them for so many people?

MULANEY: I did. Yeah. I wrote them, and a large part of them were pieces of stand-up I was doing at the time, both this year and last year. And it was very fun to do after writing so many monologues. I wrote a monologue for, I think, every host for about three years, along with the wonderful writer Simon Rich, who, my second show, approached me at the after-party. We really liked each other right away, and we're already working together. And he said, you and I are going to write a monologue every week because no one wants to write the monologue. So there'll always be an open spot for the monologue. And he said, and guess what? They can't cut the monologue.

GROSS: (Laughter).

MULANEY: So that was our sneaky 20 - he was 23 and I was 25, and that was our sneaky way of trying to always have a spot in the show. I, by doing the monologues, didn't realize that you will get to spend time with the host in the most unique way, which is - in some cases, for people who haven't performed in front of a live audience, you're working with them on the thing they are the most terrified about, which is...

GROSS: I never thought of it that way.

MULANEY: ...Walking out and doing - it's not pure stand-up. Often, cast members join them, or it's a song. But to them, it's like, I'm supposed to stand on stage alone on a comedy show and, you know, deliver a very funny speech. And it's a very scary moment for people. And it was a very valuable and interesting and strange experience to be with many people who have excelled in many different fields and, you know, kind of working with them on the thing that was the most terrifying.

GROSS: So when you hosted for the first time, were you nervous about it?

MULANEY: I was terrified.

GROSS: Why?

MULANEY: I was absolutely terrified. I mean, it was everything from, like, the feeling I had when I would have to play basketball in front of my family.

GROSS: (Laughter).

MULANEY: It was like, these people know me. And you know, it's not that people who know you don't love you. But they know you. And so, like - you know, they can't possibly think that I should be here. They have known me since I was, you know, 25 and just standing in the hallway like an idiot, drinking Dr. Pepper. And I'm a fraud - which is a common feeling among all people, I think.

And you know, as much as I had written and worked behind the scenes, I had not had to step in front of the camera and deal with that. And to be rehearsing things as a performer that I'd written on that show and dealing with camera blocking - all things I'd done countless times on the other side of it - was so jarring. I had no idea (laughter) how hard this was to be performing something you've written and wanting - you know, trying to listen to the jokes while making sure you're on your mark and looking into the right camera and then being, you know, pulled around to do costume fittings. And it was a - an absolute - it was scary. It was a very good education as to what it was like for the other side of it - for all the people that I made, you know, wear wires and fly through the air and put on any costume.

GROSS: (Laughter) So you used to be a writer on "Saturday Night Live." What did you do in your audition?

MULANEY: I tried to do jokes that I had that had, like, slight characters in them - you know, not full one-man show immersion in characters. But I had a - I had some jokes back then about "Law & Order" and the different types of people you see on every episode of "Law & Order," such as the guy the police interview who's always stacking crates and won't stop...

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: ...Even as they're questioning him, who's like, Tony Ramirez? Yeah, I remember him...

GROSS: (Laughter).

MULANEY: ...Good guy - you know? - worked on Tuesdays...

GROSS: (Laughter).

MULANEY: ...And the bartender who's shown a photo of the missing person and immediately recognizes her and everything about her, like, despite being a bartender in Midtown who sees thousands of people every night...

GROSS: (Laughter).

MULANEY: ...Like, yeah, blue shirt lady - nice lady, sat at the end of the bar. Why? Did something happen to her? It's like, yes, that's why the homicide detectives are speaking to you.

GROSS: (Laughter).

MULANEY: So as you just heard - my voice did not change that much - but I tried to throw in some slight character touches to it.

GROSS: Well, we should take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is John Mulaney, a former writer on "Saturday Night Live," a two-time guest host. He has comedy specials, including his latest on Netflix, which is called "Kid Gorgeous," recorded live at Radio City Music Hall. So let's take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BROTHERHOOD OF BREATH'S "ANDROMEDA")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is comic and writer John Mulaney. And he was a writer for "Saturday Night Live" for about five years. He's hosted twice in about the past year. He's also one of the voices on the animated series "Big Mouth." And he's very, very funny.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: You've described yourself as a song and dance man when you were a kid. So let's hear an excerpt of a musical you did on "Saturday Night Live," and this was also from your second appearance hosting the show. And the musical is called "Bodega Bathroom." And - you want to describe what it's about?

MULANEY: Yes. It was kind of a - not a sequel but a spiritual cousin to a musical piece I did the previous year that I'd written with Colin Jost called "Lobster Diner" (ph) or "Diner Lobster" - I'm not sure what the official title is - about ordering lobster in a diner. And we wanted to write another musical piece about a specific New York conundrum, or a New York City taboo, which is asking to use the bathroom in a bodega. Pete Davidson asks to use the bathroom in a bodega, and it opens up a magical world of that bodega bathroom introduced by...

GROSS: Which is just a hideous, filthy (laughter)...

MULANEY: (Laughter) Yeah.

GROSS: ...Bathroom in every way...

MULANEY: Well, have you ever gone to...

GROSS: ...You can imagine.

MULANEY: Have you ever gone to the bathroom in, like, a grocery store or a convenience store?

GROSS: Oh, I really try not to do that.

MULANEY: Oh, well, I mean, yeah, everyone tries not to. But you know, adult life is adult life. And you (laughter) sometimes have to.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: And you get - you get led back to this just place - you know? - where they, like, they store things. And there's occasionally, like, a family photo that, you know - you're really going, wow, I wonder if that's that guy's parents. And yes, they do try to dissuade you as much as possible. But if you give them that look. There's really nothing you can say. It's just that look in your eye of - you know, sir, I have no options.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: You either let me behind the soda fridge, or something very bad is about to happen.

GROSS: (Laughter).

MULANEY: I didn't plan this. I left the - I tried to leave the house. You know I didn't plan this. But there was coffee, and my SSRIs have kicked in, and a lot of things are going on.

GROSS: OK. Here's my guest John Mulaney singing the Bodega Man from "Bodega Bathroom," the musical.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

CHRIS REDD: (As character) What kind of creep would let a bathroom get like this?

MULANEY: (As Bodega Man) I did.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: (As Bodega Man, singing) Who can sell you condoms...

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: ...And Arizona Iced Tea - a loosie cigarette and plantain chips?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters, singing) The Bodega Man can. Oh, the Bodega Man can.

MULANEY: (As Bodega Man, singing) The Bodega Man can 'cause he mixes lots of pills and calls them Tiger sex pills.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Did you ever want to sing - like, for real?

MULANEY: Oh, oh, of course. Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: I mean, you can hear both the pathetic mid-range of my voice in that moment. But I believe you can also hear the absolute joy I have in being able to sing in a musical even if it's for 15 seconds. I really wish I could sing - I cannot. My wife told me I was tone-deaf, and I thought I might be tone-deaf for a while. And then a friend of mine who is a trained opera singer - I said, I think I'm tone-deaf. And she said, OK, sing any melody. And I went bada-ba-ba-ba (ph), which is the McDonald's theme, which is the first melody that came to me. And she said, OK, you're not tone-deaf because you can follow a melody. She said, what you are is a terrible singer.

GROSS: (Laughter). So you played yourself in what turned out to be the final episode of Pete Holmes' HBO series "Crashing." You play, like, a well-known comic yourself - John Mulaney. And your assistant tells Pete Holmes that you want Pete Holmes to open for you. And he's just, like, amazed. Like, he's just left the Christian circuit. Now he's got this opportunity.

And he shows up at the club only to be told by you - it's like, what? I didn't ask for you. I asked for, like, Ben Holmes from Chicago, Holmes from Chicago. I don't even know who you are. But then you have the assistant call all these other comics who you'd like to work with, and none of them are available because the show is just in a few minutes.

MULANEY: Yes, and it's at Town Hall, I believe.

GROSS: Is it Town Hall? Right, which is a...

MULANEY: Yeah, Town Hall's the...

GROSS: ...Prestige place. So you finally tell Pete Holmes, OK, you're going to open for me. But then moments before he walks on stage - because he's already really, like, unnerved by this whole experience - moments before he walks on stage, you give him this advice.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "CRASHING")

MULANEY: (As John Mulaney) God, I hate doing standup. I hate doing standup comedy so much. I only wanted to be a comedian my whole life, and the thing I hate for most is standup comedy. Are you clean?

PETE HOLMES: (As Pete Holmes) Yeah, I'm a clean...

MULANEY: (As John Mulaney) No, you got to be dirty - that way my parents will hate you, and when I walk out, I seem clean. I'm not a clean comic. People think I am. But I say [expletive] and ass and cocaine and all this stuff.

HOLMES: (As Pete Holmes) OK, I'll be dirty - a little dirty.

MULANEY: (As John Mulaney) Also, don't mention marriage. Don't mention adolescence.

HOLMES: (As Pete Holmes) A lot of it is about adolescence.

MULANEY: (As John Mulaney) Well, then you don't do that, you do something else. Or you just say, welcome, I'm the venue owner, and then you walk off. Look. Don't be bad.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Ben Holmes.

GROSS: (Laughter) So were you chosen to do that part because you're not nasty?

MULANEY: I think Pete wrote me into that episode and one previously because, as he would say, we're very close friends. And I try to be a very nice person. But someone like Pete knows that I can be extremely mean to him in order to make him laugh. So that was always our dynamic as friends was to make fun of the most sensitive things in his life to him, or when he was nervous, try to make it worse in order to make him laugh. But he thought that that would be a good use of me would be to play a tremendous bastard.

GROSS: Yes, well, well done.

MULANEY: Thank you. I forgot about the line don't be bad before he walks off.

GROSS: (Laughter) That's really helpful, right?

MULANEY: Which I - oh, that's that's so common too, you know.

GROSS: Seriously? People really say that?

MULANEY: Yeah - not don't be bad, but you better kill. Or a club owner once said to me, I need you to do really well (laughter).

GROSS: How is that helpful?

MULANEY: I said, I got - it's not. It's not. It's just - it's - I always thought that's kind of an unspoken thing in live performance that we would all like it to go really well. But yes, don't be bad is often said in a variety of ways.

GROSS: Thank you so much for talking with us.

MULANEY: Thank you very much for having me. It's a real, real pleasure.

GROSS: John Mulaney recorded last March. He's nominated for two Emmys for his work hosting "Saturday Night Live" and two for his work on IFC's "Documentary Now!"

Our Emmy week series continues tomorrow. We'll hear from three more nominees - Ben Stiller and Patricia Arquette, who are both nominated for the series "Escape At Dannemora," and Phoebe Waller-Bridge, creator and star of the Amazon comedy series "Fleabag." She stars as a young single woman who's a feminist but suspects she's a bad one. She's sex-positive but often doesn't enjoy the sex. I hope you'll join us.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media as Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. My thanks to Dave Davies for hosting last week while I was on vacation. I'm Terry Gross.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.