Harrison Ford isn't retiring: 'I really wouldn't know what to do with myself'

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Is there anyone who doesn't know who Harrison Ford is? Probably not - not after starring in the original and the sequels of "Star Wars," the "Indiana Jones" movies and "Blade Runner." He's in his 80s, but in the last three years, you might have seen him in the final "Indiana Jones" film, "The Dial Of Destiny," the prequel to "Yellowstone" called "1923" and his current series "Shrinking." Three seasons of "Shrinking" are streaming on Apple TV, and it's been renewed for a fourth. He plays a therapist, Paul, who heads a practice that includes two other therapists, Jimmy, played by Jason Segel, and Gaby, played by Jessica Williams.

Paul is at an age where most people have retired, but he doesn't want to. At the same time, he thinks maybe he needs to. He has Parkinson's disease. At first, the symptoms were relatively minor, but they've progressed. His hands shake so much, it's difficult to put the toothpaste onto the toothbrush. Even more problematic because it affects his work, his shaky hands are making it difficult to take notes when he's talking with patients. Michael J. Fox is in a couple of episodes, playing a man who has a more advanced case of Parkinson's and is very depressed. They first meet at a doctor's office, where they're both patients.

Paul is a gifted therapist, but it's hard for him to express emotion, and he has a dark and cynical sense of humor. In this scene from the current season, Season 3, Paul has returned to work after taking some time off because a UTI was causing hallucinations. So this scene is from his first day back at work. He's telling Jimmy he thinks it might be time to retire. In the past, Paul had asked Jimmy to tell him when he thought it was time. Now Jason Segel's character, Jimmy, speaks first.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SHRINKING")

JASON SEGEL: (As Jimmy) Hey. How was your first day back?

HARRISON FORD: (As Paul) Really great. I think it's time for me to stop being a therapist.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) Do you, Paul? I'm not going to fall for that one twice.

FORD: (As Paul) No, I'm serious. It took going away and coming back to see it, but it's time, Jimmy.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) I'm supposed to tell you that it's time.

FORD: (As Paul) Oh, you can do that if you want.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) It's time for you to retire, Paul.

FORD: (As Paul) OK.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) That's not the way I saw this going in my head, you know.

FORD: (As Paul) Yeah.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) I'm going to miss you.

FORD: (As Paul) Yeah.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) You mean so, so much to me. I've always wanted to tell you this one thing, and I'm going to say...

FORD: (As Paul) Oh, Jesus, Jimmy, please. I'm not leaving now. I got patients to notify. I got referrals to make. It'll take months to wind down this practice. You only get to say goodbye once, and it's not today. Come on, I want pizza on the way home. Let's go.

(As Paul) Let's go.

GROSS: Harrison Ford, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's such an honor to speak with you. Thank you for being here.

FORD: Oh, how kind of you. Thank you for having me.

GROSS: Some people are surprised that you're continuing to act, you know, in your 80s. And Paul says - after his Parkinson has gotten worse and he's thinking of retiring, he says, I love my job more than anything, and I don't know who I am without it. Do you relate to that, or do you know who you are without your work?

FORD: Yeah, I guess I do. But without my work, I really wouldn't know what to do with myself, really.

GROSS: With your time?

FORD: Well, I suppose I could fill my time, but I don't know what else I might do that would give me the kind of satisfaction and the kind of challenge that the work I'm doing does give me. I really do love the work.

GROSS: I don't blame you. It seems like it would be so fulfilling.

FORD: Well, it constantly changes, and the people change, and the mission and the opportunity change. And it just makes for an interesting way to live your life.

GROSS: And I love that you play your age because it's frustrating when, like, a beautiful woman plays somebody who's ugly by just not wearing as much makeup, but she's never ugly.

FORD: (Laughter).

GROSS: Or a young person has to play an older person by putting on prosthetics. Like, we have talented people who look like they're supposed to look. Can we cast them, please?

FORD: Well, I felt that way when I was de-aged in "Indiana Jones." But sometimes it works, and I thought it worked in "Indiana Jones," that de-aging part. But I'm happy to be the age I am, and I have no impulse to hide it.

GROSS: Well, speaking of "Indiana Jones," so "Dial Of Destiny" was, like, 2023, it was released. And, you know, you're still, like, super strong and agile in that. And then you had to go from that to, not long after, doing "Shrinking." And so in "Shrinking," you're physically compromised because of the Parkinson's disease. What was it like for you and your body to be action-hero strong, and then your hands are shaking too much to take notes?

FORD: Well, I mean, it starts with the head the character, what's in his head, what's in his mind. And I've always aware of this physicalization of a character. And the Parkinson's, or the various symptoms of Parkinson's, do help characterize Paul. And so it's a - you know, it's an opportunity to use another means to create the character.

GROSS: Michael J. Fox is in the series, and you meet at a doctor's office. He's really depressed. Did he give you advice about how to play the role? And did...

FORD: Nope.

GROSS: Really? You didn't ask him for advice?

FORD: No. Because every case is different, and my case is not yet described to me fully. My writers present symptomology and characteristics as they are writing. And so I'm sort of living with the symptoms I have been last described as having.

GROSS: Yeah. I mean, the thing about Parkinson's is that it affects everything, but it affects different parts of - like, there's a whole long list of things it affects, but everybody gets a different number of them and a different variation of them.

FORD: Right, right. So I...

GROSS: So tremors, everybody gets. Yeah.

FORD: So like a true Parkinson's patient, I don't really know what's coming.

GROSS: Oh, that's interesting. You mean, like, what the writers have in store for you in terms of your symptoms.

FORD: Yeah. I - you know, we - I have a general sense of how far it goes this season, but nothing specific yet. And that's just the way our show works. We get a script probably, if we're lucky, a couple of weeks ahead of time, but normally, maybe just a couple of days or a week ahead of time.

GROSS: Did playing the role make you think about your body in a new way and think of what it would be like to not be able to control your movements?

FORD: Not specifically. I'm - to be honest, no. There's parts of it I haven't thought through yet, really. And I think that might be similar to how I might react if I did have Parkinson's. I would want to know certain things, and other things, I would just not want to know.

GROSS: So as to not obsess on them?

FORD: So as to not be looking for them. Just...

GROSS: Right.

FORD: ...Be happy enough with what you got.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

My guest is Harrison Ford, and he's now starring in the series "Shrinking," which is streaming on Apple TV. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF DAN AUERBACH SONG, "HEARTBROKEN, IN DISREPAIR")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Harrison Ford. He's now starring as a therapist who has Parkinson's disease in the series "Shrinking," which is streaming on Apple TV.

Paul, your character, has a very cynical sense of humor. He's really funny, very, like, dark retorts. And you have a very funny sense of humor. I heard you on Conan's podcast, and you make Conan and, like, the whole team laugh, like, so much and so hard. Do you ever punch up your lines or add, like, funny lines? Because, honestly, like, your sense of humor is so good.

FORD: Sure, stuff comes up, and we have really good writers, and I love what they have to offer. But, you know, it's a collaborative atmosphere, and I feel free to bring up any idea I have.

GROSS: Can you think of a line that you added in one of your movies or in...

FORD: Oh, I guess the most famous - the one most well-known and perhaps illustrative of where it comes from is the line in "Star Wars," where Princess Leia tells me that she loves me, and I say, I know, I know, instead of saying, I love you, too, which is the scripted line. Simply the impulse was to be more in character. And George Lucas, who had written the line, was not so happy that I didn't give him the original version, but I really felt strongly about it. So he made me sit next to him when he previewed the film in a public movie theater in San Francisco. And it got a laugh, but it got a good laugh. And so he accepted it and left it in.

GROSS: So I want to play another scene from "Shrinking." And this is from the first season. I think it's the pilot, actually. So, Jimmy, who's one of the therapists in Paul's office - and he's played by Jason Segel - he's really annoyed with his patients for not changing when he's told them they have to change and stop doing the thing that's making them miserable. But this is just an expression of his disorientation and grief because his wife died a year or two ago in a car crash, and he hasn't recovered. He hasn't been himself since her death. So this is the scene where he's talking to your character, Paul, and explaining why he's so angry. And also, you'll hear Jessica Williams as therapist Gaby. And Harrison Ford, you speak first.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SHRINKING")

FORD: (As Dr. Paul Rhoades) Hey, kid. How you doing?

SEGEL: (As Jimmy Laird) I'm normal, you know? It's normal day. Normal day. Doing it, doing it normal style. Hey, you know what I was thinking, Paul?

JESSICA WILLIAMS: (As Gaby) Is it about how you're just doing it normal style?

FORD: (As Dr. Paul Rhoades) What? What are you thinking?

SEGEL: (As Jimmy Laird) You guys ever get so mad at your patients that all of a sudden, you just want to, like, shake them?

FORD: (As Dr. Paul Rhoades) Well, we don't shake them.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy Laird) No, I know. I know. I'm rooting for 'em. I am. I'm like, come on, you [expletive] up person. You can change. And then they just never do.

FORD: (As Dr. Paul Rhoades) Compassion fatigue. We all hit those walls.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy Laird) Yeah.

FORD: (As Dr. Paul Rhoades) You ask questions. You listen. You stay non-judgmental, and you don't make that face.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy Laird) Sorry. It's just - look, we know what they should do. You know why? 'Cause it's pretty simple. I get sad when I do this thing. Maybe don't do that thing. We know the answer. Don't you ever want to just make them do it?

FORD: (As Dr. Paul Rhoades) Great idea. We just rob them of their autonomy, any chance they have to help themselves, right? And we become - what? - psychological vigilantes?

WILLIAMS: (As Gaby, laughing) Oh, my God. I'm like, sensing the sarcasm, but that sounds kind of badass.

GROSS: I like that scene a lot. So you haven't experienced, like, the body symptoms of Parkinson's, even though you have to portray them in your role. But you have experienced a whole lot of injuries that you sustained making movies, including on your last "Indiana Jones" film in 2023. So I'll run through a list of things that I've read, and you can confirm that you've had this. You raptured a disc in "Indiana Jones And The Temple Of Doom." You tore a ligament in "The Fugitive." In "Star Wars: The Force Awakens," a hydraulic door closed on you, and you broke your leg and injured your ankle. In "Indiana Jones And The Dial Of Destiny," you injured your shoulder while you were rehearsing. So, how are you dealing with pain?

FORD: Pretty good (laughter). It sounds like I'm accident prone.

GROSS: Oh, not to me. It sounds like you're in movies where you do dangerous things, and of course you'd get some injuries.

FORD: Yeah, it's running, jumping, falling down.

GROSS: Yeah, there you go.

FORD: And I gave it the office. Let's put it that way.

GROSS: (Laughter) 'Cause they made you do it?

FORD: No, nobody makes me do it. You know, I make the choices of whether I want to do something. They'll often tell me, No, you can't do it.

GROSS: Like, don't do this stunt?

FORD: Yeah, well, it's not a stunt. If I'm doing it, it's, by definition, not a stunt.

GROSS: But that doesn't mean it's not risky.

FORD: Well, what it means is that I want the audience to be with the character through the activity that we're talking about. I don't want to have to hide the face of the character because it's a stunt guy. I want them to feel the blow. I want them to see the anxiety. I want them to be there when the decision is made or when the decision is missed. I just want them to be there, and it takes me being there to bring them along, I think.

GROSS: What's the closest you've come in real life to an action scene?

FORD: I suppose we won't be satisfied unless we talk about the airplane accident.

GROSS: Yeah, it just occurred to me that's what you might say. Yeah.

FORD: Well, I've got a face the music, don't I?

GROSS: (Laughter).

FORD: But let's just start by saying that it was a mechanical failure.

GROSS: And I'll mention here, it was a World War II vintage plane.

FORD: Yeah, it was a 74-year-old airplane. I was 74 years old at the time. And it was a beautiful day, and I had just recovered from an earlier accident and had gone out with a bunch of guys on a mountain bike ride. And I came home and sitting in the hot tub, and I tried to talk my wife into going with me for a ride 'cause it was such a beautiful day. She demurred, and I had a lunch with my daughter, and I asked her if she wanted to go, and she said, no. I went by myself, and 400 feet in the air above the airport, the engine quit.

And it's my home airport, and I was familiar with the surrounding terrain, which is cluttered with houses, wires and cars and people. So I turned to a golf course that was there. And when I landed, my seat belt pulled out of the place where it was secured, so I got a major blow on the head, which resulted in a brain injury that was described to me that I didn't remember the moments because it was retrograde amnesia, a kind of protective device of the brain. So I don't really remember that much about it. I remember telling the tower when I declared the emergency that the instruction they gave me was not going to be followed because I didn't have enough altitude to do what they want - suggested I do. Anyway, that's the story in a nutshell.

GROSS: So you said it was a protective form of amnesia. So...

FORD: Yeah.

GROSS: You wouldn't have the memory of, like, falling and crashing. Are you grateful for that?

FORD: I wasn't falling and crashing because I had my - in my ear was the very clear voice of one of my aviation mentors, Bob Hoover, a - well, a famous pilot, who always when talking about mechanical failures or other kinds of failures, advice was to fly the airplane as far into the crash as possible. You think about this thing when you're a pilot. You think about the potential, the possibility of it happening, and, of course, you train. And so when it happened, it was not really a surprise. And I thought I knew what I had to do to handle it. So I just started doing the things that needed to be done.

GROSS: So you drove the plane into the ground to fly into the crash?

FORD: No. I maneuvered the airplane using what gravity was going to give me and what the airplane could do, powered only by gravity, and to mitigate the consequence, came at the ground. So, you know, that's what I did. I just - I picked a spot and was in the process of landing there. I had run out of energy to maintain lift. So it wasn't a smooth landing. It was more of a crash, but I had not landed on anybody else, and I had - I was in a clear space, you know. So I'd done what I needed to do.

GROSS: Did you think you were going to die?

FORD: No, I did not. When the engine quit, I did not think. No. I just flew the airplane. I don't remember actually being scared.

GROSS: That's amazing.

FORD: Weird.

GROSS: Yeah. What were your injuries?

FORD: They were more than described in the newspaper. But I'm over them all. Thank you. Got my license back and continue to fly.

GROSS: Were you afraid to fly at all afterwards?

FORD: No. No.

GROSS: You're really lucky that you have a mind that can sustain all these injuries and a plane crash and just keep going and not be afraid.

FORD: It's - I don't think I'm not being afraid. I just - I don't put myself in a situation where I think there's going to be a adverse consequence. You know, I'm not a thrill-seeker. I was a very - I am a very conservative pilot. So, you know, it's not that I do crazy stuff for the fun of it.

GROSS: This is exactly what I hear war correspondents say, that they're careful. They don't take unnecessary risks.

FORD: It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

GROSS: (Laughter) OK, time for a break. I have to reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Harrison Ford, and he's now starring in this series "Shrinking," which is streaming on Apple TV. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Harrison Ford. He plays a therapist who has Parkinson's disease, and his symptoms are progressing, in the series "Shrinking," which is streaming on Apple TV. "Shrinking" is mostly a comedy. But it deals with some pretty serious issues like grieving the loss of a spouse, parents trying to repair relationships with children, aging, illness and knowing it's time to retire but not wanting to, and so not being sure about retiring.

So you live in LA, but you also have a ranch in Wyoming where you spend a lot of time. And you've said that when you're asked about religion, you explain that nature is the equivalent of God or religion for you. When did you start thinking of nature that way?

FORD: When I had to explain why I was not going to accept the invitation to go to Vietnam.

GROSS: You were drafted?

FORD: I was facing being drafted. And I hired a lawyer to represent me to the draft board, and I had to explain why I might qualify as a conscientious objector. I explained that I did not have a history of religious affiliation - my mother was Jewish, my father Catholic - to give me any ethical understanding. I was raised Democrat, so I'm quite happy to accept other people's versions of God. But I found in a Protestant theologian named Paul Tillich a sentence that said, if you have trouble with the word God, take whatever is central and most meaningful to your life and call that God. And to me, that was life itself. The complexity, the biodiversity, the incredible integration and complexity of nature, to me, seemed to be the same thing as God. And so I prepared a explanation that was probably so unusual that it found the edge of a desk and had a lot of things piled on top of it because it didn't fit a niche. They never got back to me, basically. The draft board never got back to me.

GROSS: So you grew up in Chicago. Would you describe the neighborhood?

FORD: I lived in, you know, a neighborhood of apartment buildings, four-story apartment buildings. My father was working in advertising. We were a comfortable middle-class kind of environment. My father was a radio actor...

GROSS: Oh.

FORD: ...At a certain point in his life. He did a show on the vaudeville circuit with four or five other guys in the - in a show that was called "Gang Busters." And they did a different radio play each week and traveled the vaudeville circuit, stood around a microphone in tuxedos and did a radio play. That was his theatrical career. He later did a bit of writing and then became a producer and director of television commercials.

GROSS: Wow. Any ones I'd...

FORD: And...

GROSS: ...Recognize?

FORD: Each weekend, because of my father's job, we would go to the Lincoln Park Zoo, where he was in charge of doing live commercials for Ken-L Ration dog food.

GROSS: Oh.

FORD: And so I would go with my dad. And I'd spend time with Marlin Perkins, who is the...

GROSS: Oh.

FORD: ...Who ran the Lincoln Park Zoo and had a program called "Zoo Parade," which was on every Saturday. So I got behind-the-scenes tours of the animal enclosures, and might have been a part of my sensitizing to nature. I think it is.

GROSS: What I want to do now is play a speech when you got the SAG - the Screen Actors Guild - Lifetime Achievement Award. And it was a very moving speech. So this is an excerpt of it, and this is very recent.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

FORD: In my third year of college, I was a little lost. I was failing at school. I felt isolated, alone. And then I found the company of people putting on plays - storytellers. People I once thought were misfits and geeks turned out to be my people. I found a calling, a life in storytelling, an identity in pretending to be other people. The work I do with other actors is one of the great joys of my life. My career is built on their work, as well as the work of writers, directors and every single cast member, every crew member I've ever been on a set with. I've had incredible collaborators at every step of the way. And being able to deliver the work we create together is - to an audience is an honor and a privilege. And because of that privilege, I've come to know myself.

GROSS: You were tearing up during that speech. Were you prepared for that?

FORD: No. Not really. I was trying not to do that.

GROSS: Why were you trying not to do it?

FORD: Just 'cause I wanted to convey an idea. I didn't want to posture.

GROSS: So you said on that that you thought that the theater people were misfits and geeks, but they turned...

FORD: (Laughter).

GROSS: ...Out to be your people. What made you think of them as misfits and geeks?

FORD: Oh, I - just ignorance. Stupidity. I wasn't a student athlete. I wasn't a student, you know, involved in student government. I didn't find a place in the college culture, you know, environment. I was just mischaracterizing people that I didn't really know.

That speech that I wrote was not crafted to be emotional. It was - it just happened to me. And it's - I feel slightly embarrassed by it 'cause I have enough experience (laughter) with these things to be - to want to be able to manage not to be overcome.

GROSS: It was nice to see you be overcome 'cause you were feeling it. You were feeling it for real. It didn't sound like a phony - you know, a phony award address where you express all these feelings that sound kind of - they can sometimes sound a little, you know, excessive, or, you know, not deeply felt at the moment. Yours felt deeply felt at the moment, and people really responded to it.

FORD: And people are very generous to me.

GROSS: My guest is Harrison Ford, and he's now starring in the series "Shrinking," which is streaming on Apple TV. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MONTEFIORI COCKTAIL'S "GNE GNE")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Harrison Ford. He's now starring as a therapist who has Parkinson's disease and his symptoms are progressing in the series "Shrinking," which is streaming on Apple TV.

So you were in Season 18 of "Gunsmoke," and it had, like, two more seasons after that. You weren't a regular. You were on, I think, two episodes. So this is in the 1970s already. And there were two more seasons after that. Did you grow up watching "Gunsmoke"?

FORD: Not really. Because my dad did television commercials, we had the first TV in our neighborhood, and I remember watching "Ed Sullivan" and shows like that. And I'm sure we did - I don't know if "Gunsmoke" was on at the time. I think it was Gene Autry that I was seeing on television.

GROSS: I like Gene Autry more because it has songs in it. He sang.

FORD: (Laughter).

GROSS: And he was a singing cowboy, unlike...

FORD: Right (laughter).

GROSS: ...James Arness.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So in the episode that I'm going to play a clip from, you were one of the villains. You were one of the bad guys coming in gunning for Marshal Dillon, who was out of town. And, you know, you're threatening people, you're robbing people. You and your gang, you're taking over the town. And you stop in the saloon where, you know, Miss Kitty, who owns the saloon in Dodge City, she's always there. And of course, she's there when you come in, and you and another of the villains are just kind of, like, taunting her. And so Miss Kitty is played by Amanda Blake, and she speaks first.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "GUNSMOKE")

AMANDA BLAKE: (As Kitty Russell) My name's Kitty Russell. My place.

FORD: (As Hobey) Hey, Ms. Russell, you happen to have a pack of cards around this here fancy house?

BLAKE: (As Kitty Russell) There (ph).

FORD: (As Hobey) All right, come on. Let's get to betting.

GROSS: All right. So that's you (laughter).

FORD: Oh, really? Wow.

GROSS: You don't recognize your voice?

FORD: I don't remember any of it.

GROSS: It's temporary amnesia (laughter)...

FORD: I see. Caused by...

GROSS: ...To protect yourself (laughter).

FORD: Yeah (laughter). And I'd have good reason.

GROSS: So you lost two teeth in "Gunsmoke" - one of your early injuries. What happened?

FORD: I was supposed to be a bad guy, and the sheriff was walking up the stairs, I guess. I'm trying to remember now. And I was shooting out the window and I turned and saw the sheriff and shots were exchanged. And what happened was, as I fell to the ground wounded, the gun dropped and then bounced up and hit me in the teeth and knocked out several of my teeth right in the front of my mouth.

I was under contract to Universal at the time, and so I went to their dentist - the studio dentist - and he fixed up my teeth. And within about two months, they started falling apart, and I - the studio didn't do anything about it. So I called his office and apparently the dentist that had worked on me had left the practice, and his partner confessed he had no knowledge of where he'd gone (laughter). So I was stuck with teeth that were falling out of my mouth and I had to pay for my own replacements.

GROSS: Oh, even though the studio had hired the dentist, you had to pay...

FORD: Yeah.

GROSS: ...For his shoddy work?

FORD: Yeah.

GROSS: Nice.

FORD: Yeah. Yeah.

GROSS: So you worked for a couple of studios before...

FORD: Yeah. I did.

GROSS: ...Them or you breaking the contract, which you always say was a good thing because they were hardly paying you anything, and they would have been hardly paying you anything for seven years 'cause you had, like, a seven-year contract. And that's when you started working with, like, Spielberg and Coppola and George Lucas. And what's interesting to me about that, among many other things, is that you had bad experiences at studios, and they're three of the people who created alternate studios, you know? And they had this vision that they didn't have to work with the existing studios. They could form their own production companies and their own studios. Do you think about that a lot - about how that was, like, the start of something brand new and you were a part of it?

FORD: Yeah, I do. I don't think of it often, but I mean, I recognize that there was a change happening and that these guys were becoming important to the business overall. No, it was exciting at the time to be, you know, even a small part of it, of what was happening.

GROSS: My guest is Harrison Ford, and he's now starring in the series "Shrinking," which is streaming on Apple TV. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF DAVID NEWMAN & RAY CHARLES SONG, "HARD TIMES")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Harrison Ford. He's now starring as a therapist who has Parkinson's disease, and his symptoms are progressing, in the series "Shrinking," which is streaming on Apple TV. So after being in episodic TV like "Gunsmoke" and "The Virginian" and, I think, like, "The F.B.I." - was that one of them?

FORD: Oh, there...

GROSS: You...

FORD: ...Were a lot.

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah. So then you got the part on "American Graffiti," where you're somebody who, like, loves to race cars. And it's not a big part, but it's a significant part. And "American Graffiti" kind of tangentially led to "Star Wars." You were a carpenter in between because you weren't getting enough work. So you were working for Coppola as a carpenter, doing something in his home or his office.

FORD: Well, actually, I was working for Dean Tavoularis, who was Francis' art director. And Francis had moved into new offices at Goldwyn Studios, and Dean had designed a - an entrance to the offices. And the studio mill woodshop had made all the pieces for this entrance, and Dean needed somebody to install it. And so he asked me if I would do him a favor 'cause he couldn't find a carpenter to get it installed. I said that I would do the job, I'd be happy to do the job, but I only wanted to work at night 'cause I didn't want to confuse the people in the office about whether I was a carpenter or an actor.

GROSS: You wanted carpentry to be your side gig. You were an actor.

FORD: Yeah. Well, I wanted them to think of me as an actor...

GROSS: Right.

FORD: ...Not to think of me as a carpenter.

GROSS: Yeah.

FORD: So I was there sweeping up. I was just finishing the job when George Lucas walked in with Richard Dreyfuss, who had been in "American Graffiti." We had - all of us who had been in "American Graffiti" had been told that we would not be considered for the...

GROSS: For "Star Wars."

FORD: ...For "Star Wars" because George wanted new faces. And here he is having a - you know, the first interview with Richard Dreyfuss. And I'm standing there in my carpenter's work belt, sweeping up the floor. But it turned out to be a fortuitous occasion because weeks later, I would end up being asked if I would do them a favor and read with the other actors who were being considered for the parts.

GROSS: So you'd just be feeding them the lines.

FORD: That's right.

GROSS: But he was...

FORD: And...

GROSS: ...Auditioning your partner, not you.

FORD: That's correct. I never was told that I was ever to be considered. And then at the end of the process, I guess they ended up with two groups of three people that were in the final consideration. And I've always been amused that in the second group, the character of Han Solo would have been played by Chris Walken...

GROSS: Oh.

FORD: ...Which I would have - I would have loved to see that (laughter).

GROSS: Oh, gosh. That's so interesting.

FORD: He's one of my favorite actors.

GROSS: He's so great. I mean, his line...

FORD: He's fantastic.

GROSS: ...Readings are so unusual.

FORD: Yeah. Yeah.

GROSS: So you were surprised you got the part?

FORD: Yeah. And thrilled.

GROSS: So I'm going to play a clip, just so we get in the moment. So this is a scene from "Star Wars" - the first one - in which Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker and you as Han Solo, along with Chewbacca, are on the Death Star. And R2-D2 and C-3PO are there with you as well. And - where you find out that Princess Leia is being held in detention and is likely to be killed. And the person - the android breaking the news to you is C-3PO, who is portrayed by Anthony Daniels.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "STAR WARS: EPISODE IV - A NEW HOPE")

ANTHONY DANIELS: (As C-3PO) I'm afraid she's scheduled to be terminated.

MARK HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) Oh, no. We've got to do something.

FORD: (As Han Solo) What are you talking about?

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) The droids belong to her. She's the one in the message. We got to help her.

FORD: (As Han Solo) Now, look. Don't get any funny ideas. The old man wants us to wait right here.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) But he didn't know she was here. Will you just find a way back into the detention block?

FORD: (As Han Solo) I'm not going anywhere.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) They're going to execute her. Look, a few minutes ago, you said you didn't want to just wait here to be captured. Now, all you want to do is stay?

FORD: (As Han Solo) Marching into the detention area is not what I had in mind.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) But they're going to kill her.

FORD: (As Han Solo) Better her than me.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) She's rich.

PETER MAYHEW: (As Chewbacca, growling).

FORD: (As Han Solo) Rich?

MAYHEW: (As Chewbacca, growling).

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) Rich, powerful. Listen, if you were to rescue her, the reward would be...

FORD: (As Han Solo) What?

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) Well, more wealth than you can imagine.

FORD: (As Han Solo) I don't know. I can imagine quite a bit.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) You'll get it.

GROSS: All right. So what's your reaction to hearing that?

FORD: (Laughter) It seems like a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

GROSS: Right.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Did the script make sense to you without being able to visualize Chewbacca or R2-D2 or C-3PO or the special effects? You didn't have - you just got what's called the sides - you know, like, your part - and you didn't have a larger context, so it was probably hard to actually have an idea of what the film was like. But when you saw the film for the first time, with the special effects and with the androids and with the, you know, like, stirring music behind it, what did you think?

FORD: I was blown away. I mean, I was really shocked (laughter) by the power of the film when I saw it. You know, the - we shot in England, and our English crew were not used to something like "Star Wars," and so they would - they were pretty sure that it was going to be a disaster. And we weren't far from that opinion ourselves - the actors (laughter). But it, you know...

GROSS: It did OK.

FORD: ...Did well.

GROSS: (Laughter).

FORD: Yeah, it did OK. Yeah.

GROSS: Elton John once asked you if you were going to write a memoir. I think that was after he wrote his. And you - I...

FORD: (Laughter).

GROSS: I've read that what you told him was that you didn't want to tell the truth, but you don't want to lie. And I thought that was an interesting position to take, especially in a time when a lot of people share absolutely everything.

FORD: Yeah. Well...

GROSS: Can you say more about that?

FORD: Well, I don't think Elton was - thought I had the best answer because he was brutally honest about himself, and I - I'm not prepared to be brutally (laughter) honest about myself.

GROSS: Is it out of self-protection, or protection - protecting other people, or both?

FORD: Probably both, yeah. It's just - I just don't think it's anybody's business (laughter).

GROSS: So...

FORD: Anyway.

GROSS: So is it awkward for you to be interviewed all the time, like in this interview...

FORD: Yeah.

GROSS: ...And you have things that are, like, really private? I've tried to, like, not invade your privacy (laughter).

FORD: You know, you've been very gracious. And I - it's always a struggle, I think, to know how to control this volume of information about yourself.

GROSS: Well, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming back on our show.

FORD: Oh, thank you.

GROSS: And...

FORD: I really appreciate it.

GROSS: And congratulations on getting Season 4 of "Shrinking," and congratulations on the SAG lifetime achievement award and congratulations on giving such a great acceptance speech.

FORD: You're very kind. Thank you.

GROSS: Harrison Ford costars in the series "Shrinking." Seasons 1, 2 and 3 are streaming on Apple TV, and it's been renewed for a fourth season.

Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how these days, more and more Americans are betting on sports, but they're also betting on elections, award shows and even the removal of foreign leaders - almost everything. Writer Mackay Coppins went inside that gambling world for The Atlantic. He'll share what he found and how it changed his perspective on betting. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair.

(SOUNDBITE OF MECO'S "STAR WARS THEME/CANTINA BAND")

GROSS: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF MECO'S "STAR WARS THEME/CANTINA BAND")

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.