Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BIG PIMPIN'")

JAY-Z: (Rapping) Big pimping, baby. It's big pimping, spending G's. Feel me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Feel me.

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. We're continuing our series of favorite music interviews from our archive with Jay-Z and Lizzo. First, we have Jay-Z, who's been incredibly successful as a rapper and an entrepreneur. We spoke in 2010 after he published his memoir, "Decoded," in which he wrote about growing up in a housing project and watching crack destroy his neighborhood. He sold drugs before finding success in the recording studio and on stage. His book also tells the stories behind 36 of his songs. He holds the record for the most No. 1 albums by a solo artist on the Billboard 200. In 2017, Jay-Z became the first rapper to be inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame. His 2009 record with Alicia Keys, "Empire State Of Mind," became something of a New York anthem. He's also known as Beyonce's husband. Let's start with one of Jay-Z's signature songs, "Izzo (H.O.V.A)," from his 2001 album, "The Blueprint."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "IZZO (H.O.V.A)")

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, let's put our hands together for the astonishing...

UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) H to the izz-O (ph), V to the izz-A (ph).

JAY-Z: Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the eighth wonder of the world. The flow of the century - oh, it's timeless. Hov (ph). Thanks for coming out tonight. You could have been anywhere in the world, but you're here with me. I appreciate that.

(Rapping) H to the izz-O, V to the izz-A. For shizzle (ph), my nizzle (ph) used to dribble down in V-A. Was hurting them in the home of the Terrapins. Got it dirt cheap for them. Plus, if they was short with cheese, I would work with them. Brought in weed. Got rid of that dirt for them. Wasn't born hustlers; I was birthing them. H to the izz-O, V to the izz-A. For sheezy (ph), my neezy (ph), keep my arms so breezy. Can't leave rap alone. The game needs me. Haters want me clapped and chromed. It ain't easy. Cops want to knock me. DA wants to box me in. But somehow, I beat them charges like Rocky. H to the izz-O, V to the izz-A. Not guilty, he who does not feel me. It's not real to me. Therefore, he doesn't exist. So poof, vamoose, son of a. H to the izz-O, V to the izz-A. For shizzle, my nizzle used to dribble down in V-A. H to the izz-O, V to the izz-A. That's the anthem. Get your damn hands up. H to the izz-O...

GROSS: Jay-Z, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's great to have you on our show. So what were your first rhymes like? You - like, you got your first boombox when you were 9. Your mother gave it to you, you say, because she thought it would help keep you out of trouble?

JAY-Z: Yeah. Yeah. Just so - you know, if I was focusing on music, you know, I wouldn't be, you know, running the streets all wild. So she tried to encourage me to pursue my dreams in music early on. And my first rhymes were pretty much, you know, very boastful and, you know, academic, but they were kind of advanced for a young kid. Like, I brought a piece of one of them, and it was like, (rapping) I'm the king of hip-hop that were new like the Reebok with a key and a lock with words so provocative as long as I live.

And I look back on that rhyme now. I'm like, man, it's pretty pathetic.

GROSS: So - but you were about 9 when you wrote that?

JAY-Z: Yeah. Well, yeah, between 9 and 11. Those were my first rhymes.

GROSS: OK, so provocative is a pretty big word for a kid who's that age. You write how you started reading the dictionary, like, looking for cool words to use. Did you find that word in the dictionary? Or did you already know that?

JAY-Z: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I found that in the dictionary. Look, I had a sixth grade teacher, Ms. Lowden, that was very pivotal to my hunger for wanting to know the English language and, you know, discover these words. And, you know, it was a tool in the music that I - you know, poetry that I chose to pursue.

GROSS: Would you describe the Marcy projects in Bedford-Stuyvesant where you grew up, in Brooklyn?

JAY-Z: Yeah. You have these three columns of buildings with four people on each floor - six floors. You know, so you have people to the left of you, right of you, top - on top and on the bottom of you. It's a very intense and stressful situation. Everyone's going through different things. And in between all that stress and angst and, you know, having to deal with one another in such close proximity, there's so much love.

And there was playing in the Johnny Pump, and there was the ice cream man who - coming around. And there was all these games that we played. And then, it would turn - suddenly, it just - violent. And there would be shootings at 12 in the afternoon on any given day. So it was just - weird mix of emotions. I mean, you know, one day, your best friend could be killed. The day before you could be celebrating him getting a brand-new bike. It was just extreme highs and lows.

GROSS: How old were you when crack came to the neighborhood?

JAY-Z: It was about '85, so I had to be - a little earlier than that, so maybe about 12, 13 years old.

GROSS: And how did that change the projects?

JAY-Z: Well, I think it - what it changed most was - you know, they have a saying: it takes a village to raise a child. It changed the authority figure because, you know, with crack cocaine, it was done so openly. The people who were addicted to it, the fiends, had very little self-respect for their self. This - it was so highly addictive that they didn't care how they obtained it. And they carried that out in front of children, who were dealing at the time. So that relationship of that respect of, you know, I have to respect my elders and, you know, Uncle Tyrone's (ph) coming, who wasn't really your uncle, but he was the uncle for the neighborhood - and, you know, that dynamic shifted, and it had broke forever. And it just changed everything from that point on.

GROSS: And it changed everything for you because you - and you write about this in the book, and, you know, you've rapped about it, too. You ended up being a hustler. You ended up selling crack and helping your mother, as a single mother, support the family. You describe in the book how when you first started writing rhymes, you had a notebook. But when you were hustling on the street, you weren't carrying your notebook with you. And if a rhyme came to you that you wanted to remember, what would you do? You'd go to the store. Tell the story how you'd go to the store to...

JAY-Z: Yeah. What happened was I wrote so much in this book. I would sit at my table for hours and hours till my mother made me go to bed. And it was, like, this obsession with words and with writing. And as I got further away from that notebook, you know, as I was on the street and these ideas would come, I would run into the corner store, and would - the bodega - and grab, like, a paper bag or just buy juice - anything just to get a paper bag. And then, I would write the words on a paper bag and stuff these ideas in my pocket till I got back. And then, I would transfer them into the notebook.

And as I got further and further away from home and from the notebook, I had to memorize these rhymes longer and longer and longer. And like with any exercise, you know, once you train your brain to do that, it becomes a natural occurrence. So, you know, by the time I got to record my first album, which was - I was 26 - I didn't need pen to paper. My memory had been trained just to listen to a song, think of the words, and then just lay them to tape.

GROSS: And what about now? Do you write down rhymes when they come to you? or...

JAY-Z: No, I haven't since my first album.

GROSS: And your memory's as good now as it was then?

JAY-Z: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've lost plenty material. It's not the best way.

GROSS: (Laughter).

JAY-Z: I wouldn't advise it to anyone. I've lost a couple albums worth of great material.

GROSS: (Laughter).

JAY-Z: Well, I thought they were great - when I couldn't remember them. You know, to think about how, you know, when you can't remember a word and it drives you crazy, like, man, I got to think about this. You know, it's the - so imagine, you know, forgetting an entire rhyme. And it happens. You sit there and like, what - I said I was the greatest something.

GROSS: So what was the turning point in your life that got you out of hustling and into the recording studio?

JAY-Z: It was, like, events that would happen over the years. You know, I went to a guy named Clark Kent - by the name of Clark Kent. I made a couple of demos with him, and then I would leave back into the streets. You know, my cousin stopped speaking to me, thought I was wasting my talent. And I was, like, one foot in and one foot out. I always had in the back of my mind that I would be back in the streets for some reason. And I guess I didn't have 100% belief in what I was doing. Then finally, I just said, man, I'm just going to give this music a try. I'm going to give it 100% and just forget everything that I'm doing, you know. And here we are.

GROSS: We're listening to the interview I recorded with JAY-Z in 2010. We'll hear more of the interview after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF JAY-Z SONG, "DIRT OFF YOUR SHOULDER")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2010 interview with JAY-Z, recorded after the publication of his memoir, "Decoded."

Let's talk about another one of your tracks. I want to play "Hard Knock Life," which really surprised me when I first heard it because you sample the song "Hard Knock Life" from the Broadway show "Annie," which I thought was a real surprise - (laughter) surprising choice...

JAY-Z: To say the least.

GROSS: ...For you. Yes, to say the least.

JAY-Z: Yeah (laughter).

GROSS: So how did you decide to use that?

JAY-Z: Well, what happened was, my sister's name is Andrea Carter. And we call her Annie for short. So when the TV version of the play, you know, it came on and it was like, this is a story called "Annie," I was immediately drawn to it, of course, because it was sister's name. Like, what is this about? So you know, I watched it. And I was - you know, I was immediately drawn to that story and, you know, those words - instead of treated, we get tricked; instead of kisses, we get kicked - it immediately resonated with me.

So you know, fast forward. I'm on the Puff Daddy tour. And I'm about to leave stage. And a DJ by the name of Kid Capri plays this track - no rap on it, just the instrumental. I - you know, it stopped me in my tracks. It immediately brought me back to my childhood and that feeling. And I knew right then and there that I had to make that record and that, you know, people would relate to the struggle in it and the aspiration in it as well.

GROSS: So let's hear the song, and then we'll talk some more about it. So this is "Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem)" by JAY-Z.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HARD KNOCK LIFE (GHETTO ANTHEM)")

JAY-Z: Take the bass line out. Jigga. Let it bump, though.

(Singing) It’s the hard-knock life for us. It’s the hard-knock life for us. Instead of treated, we get tricked. Instead of kisses, we get kicked. It’s the hard-knock life.

(Rapping) From standing on the corners bopping, to driving some of the hottest cars New York has ever seen for dropping some of the hottest verses rap has ever heard. From the dope spot, with the smoke Glock fleeing the murder scene, you know me well. From nightmares of a lonely cell, my only hell but since when y'all [expletive] know me to fail? [Expletive] no.

Where all my [expletive] with the rubber grips? Bust shots. And if you with me, ma, I'll rub on your [expletive] and whatnot. I'm from the school of the hard knocks. We must not let outsiders violate our blocks. And my plot - let's stick up the world and split it 50-50, uh-huh. Let's take the dough and stay real jiggy, uh-huh. And sip the Cris' and get pissy-pissy. Flow infinitely like the memory of my [expletive] Biggie - baby. You know it's hell when I come through. "The Life And Times Of Shawn Carter," [expletive], Volume 2.

(Singing) It's the hard-knock life for us.

GROSS: That's "Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem)" by my guest, JAY-Z, who has a new book called "Decoded." So you tell a great story in the book about how you got the rights to use that song, to use the song from "Annie," "Hard Knock Life." Would you tell the story?

JAY-Z: Yeah (laughter). Well, I mean, we got the rights already, so it's a bit late, so - 'cause I exaggerated a touch. You know, and it's typical when you have to clear a song, you have to send it - a sampled song, you send it to the original writers. And they give - grant you permission. And you pay a fee for that permission, you know?

But some writers, their art is, for them, very important. So it has to be the right sort of attitude and the right take. And the emotion on the record has to fit, you know, what was originally intended. So we're having difficulties clearing the sample. And I wrote a letter about how much it meant to me, you know, what it meant to me growing up and how I went to, like, a Broadway play, which was exaggeration. I saw it on TV. And, you know, we got the rights luckily.

GROSS: But let me stop you because in the book, you say (laughter)...

JAY-Z: Yeah.

GROSS: ...That you told the big lie. In the book, you say that you...

JAY-Z: Yeah (laughter).

GROSS: You made up that you entered an essay contest. And in the essay, you wrote about the importance of seeing "Annie" on Broadway, which you'd never seen on Broadway, in fact...

JAY-Z: Yeah (laughter).

GROSS: ...And, you know, all that it meant to you when you saw it on Broadway. And I think you said you, like, won the essay contest. And so you...

JAY-Z: I didn't want you to put the whole thing out there. I was trying to - you know, I could have...

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So how did - so in other words, you lied a little bit in order to get the rights.

JAY-Z: Yeah. It was - you know, it was a bad lie for a good reason.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Well, it worked out well for everybody.

JAY-Z: Yeah.

GROSS: Can I ask you a question you might find weird - but since part of your goal in the book is to kind of explain your generation and explain the music (laughter) to people. You know how a lot of hip-hop artists, when they're onstage, they kind of like, grab their crotch (laughter)?

JAY-Z: Yeah, I have a great explanation for that.

GROSS: Yeah. Like, how did that start? Like, who started that and why is that?

JAY-Z: Well, a lot a times in hip-hop - like in rock 'n' roll, you'll have bands who tour the world. They get in vans, and they tour the world. And they do rinky-dink clubs. And they get bottles thrown at them and - you know, until they hone their craft, until they become, you know, rock stars.

In hip-hop, the music leads first. So usually, you have a hit record. And then you throw this person onstage who's never been onstage before, you know, 'cause the music leads. So they don't have any experience on how to perform in front of people, hold the mic, you know, all these different things that you need to know as a performer. So when you get up there, you feel naked, right? So when you feel naked, what's the first thing you do? You cover yourself. So that bravado is an act of - I am so nervous right now, and I'm scared to death. I'm going to act so tough that I'm going to hide it. And I have to grab, you know, my crotch. That's just what happens.

GROSS: I thought it was kind of the opposite. Like, this stuff is so good (laughter), I'm going to show off. No?

JAY-Z: No, that's what - yeah, they want - that's what we want you to believe.

GROSS: (Laughter).

JAY-Z: But the reality is - and no one else will admit to this - well, maybe they will - is you're onstage in front of - people are getting put onstage in front of 50,000 people with a record that's a radio hit. And they've never performed before. It's going to be a disaster 9 times out of 10.

GROSS: So do you feel like you were onstage before you were prepared for it? Probably not, because you did parties before that. You had experience.

JAY-Z: Exactly. I kind of went through a rock 'n' roll stage. You know, I kind of was doing parties and learning to perform. The first show I ever did, I just forgot the words. I stood there, and I tried to pass the mic to Damon Dash, who I co-founded Roc-A-Fella with. I gave him the mic, like, here. He was like, man, I don't rap.

GROSS: (Laughter).

JAY-Z: I just didn't know what to do. I didn't - I was, like, in shock.

GROSS: So let's play - let's get another song in here.

JAY-Z: Sure.

GROSS: And let's do "99 Problems." We'll do the clean version.

JAY-Z: Aw.

GROSS: It's radio, my friend.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So this is actually based on a story - loosely based on a story that happened to you. Would you explain?

JAY-Z: Well, it's based on a generational story as well. There is a higher thing. Like, there was a time where there was a lot of activity going on on the turnpike from New York headed south because there were a lot of drugs going back and forth. And so the state troopers at that time just blanketed every single car, anybody that was of color. And it was this term, driving while Black. And people were getting pulled over for absolutely no reason, you know, other than their color. So I just had to set the scene up.

So now we're driving. And we're doing - we're actually doing something bad, you know? We're transporting drugs from New York to, you know, down south. And we get pulled over by a state trooper. But we get pulled over for absolutely nothing. We're wrong. The cop is wrong. This conversation ensues. And there's racial undertones. And he says, are you - do you have a gun on you, like, a lot of you are? - you know, just that statement right there, and the conversation between two people who are both in the wrong but are both used to getting their way. So there's this clever banter that goes back and forth between the two.

GROSS: OK. And we're going to hear the part of this song that deals with the story that you just told.

JAY-Z: Yeah.

GROSS: And again, it's the clean version, so a lot of the words are going to sound kind of...

JAY-Z: It's the second verse, the - where this takes place.

GROSS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I will say that one of the words that isn't clearly said here because it's distorted - because it's the clean version - is the word b****, which, in the context of this part of the song, means dog because you're talking about K-9 dogs here.

JAY-Z: Yeah.

GROSS: Because the K-9...

JAY-Z: And that was my...

GROSS: Yeah.

JAY-Z: And that was the writer in me being provocative 'cause that's what rap should be as well, you know, at times. That was really directed to all the people who hear buzzwords in rap music. They hear b**** or hoe or something and immediately dismiss everything else that, you know, takes place. And everything has to be put in context. And when you put it in context, you realize that I wasn't calling any female, besides the female dog, a b**** on this song.

GROSS: And is that in spite of the opening part that says, if you're having girl problems, I feel bad for you, son. I've got 99 problems, but the b**** ain't one?

JAY-Z: Yeah, that was to lead the listener down the wrong path if you were looking for that sort of thing.

GROSS: OK.

JAY-Z: Yeah.

GROSS: So here's "99 Problems" by my guest, JAY-Z

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "99 PROBLEMS")

JAY-Z: Hit me. (Rapping) The year's '94. In my trunk is raw. In my rearview mirror is the mother-[expletive] law. I got two choices, y'all, pull over the car or bounce on the devil, put the pedal to the floor. Now, I ain't trying to see no highway chase with Jake. Plus, I got a few dollars. I can fight the case. So I pull over to the side of the road. I heard, son, do you know why I'm stopping you for? 'Cause I'm young and I'm Black and my hat's real low. Do I look like a mind reader, sir? I don't know. Am I under arrest or should I guess some more?

Well, you was doing 55 in a 54. License and registration and step out of the car. You carrying a weapon on you? I know a lot of you are. I ain't stepping out of [expletive] and all my papers legit. Well, do you mind if I look around the car a little bit?

Well, my glove compartment is locked, so is the trunk in the back. And I know my rights, so you're going to need a warrant for that. Aren't you sharp as a tack? You some type of a lawyer or something, somebody important or something? Nah, I ain't pass the bar, but I know a little bit - enough that you won't illegally search my [expletive]. We'll see how smart you are when the K-9 comes. I got 99 problems, but a [expletive] ain't one. Hit me - 99 problems, but a [expletive] ain't one. If you're having girl problems, I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems, but a [expletive] ain't one. Hit me.

GROSS: That was "99 Problems" by my guest, JAY-Z. Do we have time for the other 98 problems?

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: No.

JAY-Z: Well, if you can get it in 9 minutes.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: My interview with JAY-Z was recorded in 2010. After a short break, we'll hear my 2019 interview with rapper, singer and classically trained flute player Lizzo. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "EMPIRE STATE OF MIND")

JAY-Z: (Rapping) Yeah, I'm out that Brooklyn. Now I'm down in Tribeca right next to De Niro, but I'll be hood forever. I'm the new Sinatra. And since I made it here, I can make it anywhere. Yeah, they love me everywhere. I used to cop in Harlem. Hola, my Dominicanos right there up on Broadway - brought me back to that McDonald's. Took it to my stash spot, 560 State St. Catch me in the kitchen like a Simmons, whipping pastry. Cruising down 8th Street, off-white Lexus. Driving so slow, but BK is from Texas. Me? I'm out that Bed-Stuy, home of that boy Biggie. Now I live on Billboard...

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "APES**T")

THE CARTERS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah…

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. We're going to continue our series of interviews with musicians from our archive with Lizzo. Her latest album, "Special," was released earlier this year. The first single, "About Damn Time," became her second song to hit No. 1.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ABOUT DAMN TIME")

LIZZO: (Singing) Turn up the music. Turn down the lights. I got a feeling I'm going to be all right. OK. OK. All right. It's about damn time. Turn up the music. Let's celebrate. I got a feeling I'm going to be OK. OK. OK. All right. It's about damn time.

(Rapping) In a minute, I'm going to need a sentimental man or woman to pump me up.

GROSS: Lizzo spent years as an under-the-radar musician before rocketing to fame around the time of our 2019 interview. Her song "Truth Hurts" hit No. 1 on the Billboard charts in 2019, about two years after its release. She's been nominated for eight Grammys and won three. Lizzo is a self-described big girl. Her backup dancers are big girls, too. Earlier this year, she hosted the Amazon Prime Video reality TV series called "Lizzo's Watch Out For The Big Grrrls" in which women competed to be her dancers.

When she was in college, Lizzo was studying to become a classical flute player. Although hip-hop and pop won out, she's found a place for her flute in her music. Prince was a fan, and she recorded a track for his 2014 album, "Plectrumelectrum" with 3rdeyegirl. We spoke in 2019 just after Lizzo released her album "Cuz I Love You." We started with this track from that album, "Juice."

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

LIZZO: (Rapping) Mirror, mirror on the wall, don't say it 'cause I know I'm cute. Ooh, baby. Louis down to my drawers, LV all on my shoes. Ooh, baby. I be dripping so much sauce, got to been looking like ragu. Ooh, baby. Lit up like a crystal ball, that's cool, baby, so is you. That's how I roll. If I'm shining, everybody going to shine. Yeah, I'm goals. I was born like this, don't even got to try. Now you know. I'm like Chardonnay, get better over time. So you know. Heard you say I'm not the baddest. B****, you lie. (Singing) It ain't my fault that I'm out here getting loose. Got to blame it on the Goose. Got to blame it on my juice, baby. It ain't my fault that I'm out here making news. I'm the pudding in the proof. Got to blame it on my juice. (Vocalizing). Blame it on my juice. Blame it - blame it on my juice. (Vocalizing). Blame it on my juice. Blame it - blame it on my juice. Ooh, baby.

GROSS: Lizzo, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love your new album. Thank you so much for coming. I want to talk a little bit about the production on your album. It's so good, and there's different producers on different tracks. You're a constant on there. But, you know, even though there's different producers for different tracks, the album has a kind of very coherent sensibility to it. Can you talk a little bit about the production and what your role is when deciding what the sound is going to be on each track?

LIZZO: Well, as some people may know, I am, you know, classically trained in music theory and music performance. So I have kind of an innate ear and actually a highly skilled ear when it comes to frequency and harmony and dissonance and melody. And so for me, it's this thing that I can feel in my body. I'm almost like a tuning fork where if I hear the beat and I vibrate at the level that, you know, I'm supposed to, I know that that's what I want to get on. And from being trained, I think it's easier for me to speak a language to producers, and I can speak engineer to the engineers. And I think we all just have so much fun nerding out. And I'm credited as a producer on a couple of the songs because I was there, you know, and I'm a - and my DNA is in there as well.

GROSS: So you play flute. And I'll just start by saying you've played flute, like, on TV and on videos. And a lot of people thought, like, oh, it's dubbed by somebody else. She can't possibly play like that. She's not a classical person.

LIZZO: I don't know why people think that. That's racist (laughter).

GROSS: Yes. You have some very funny videos answering that.

LIZZO: Yeah.

GROSS: But tell us how you started to play flute. Like, this is - what? - fifth or sixth grade? Did you choose the instrument?

LIZZO: Yeah.

GROSS: Or did a teacher say you get to play flute and this other person gets to play trombone?

LIZZO: Yeah, they chose. The flute chose me. I remember I was in band in fifth grade, and we were sitting down. And there was one girl - her name is Ms. Johnson (ph) - and she was a flute specialist. And I really think she was, like, just going to college and was trying to get some extra credits. And he was like - Mr. Browdon (ph) was like, who do you want in your flute class? Who do you want to play flute? And she picks me. And I don't know why she picked me. I think - later on, she was like, you know, you just had a good embouchure. I could tell you'd have a good flute embouchure, which is, you know, your mouth. But I don't know. And I was, like, grateful because I wanted to play flute. I thought it was the coolest instrument. But, you know, who could have known? All the cool girls play clarinet anyway.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Well, how long was it until you started bringing flutes - your flute to gigs?

LIZZO: Well, I will say that I was playing the flute in my rock band when I first started playing shows. I played the flute. And we got an - I got nominated for best alternative instrument in the Houston Press Awards for flute. And I would pull that little girl out and just start playing, and they would freak out. But I think it was more - it made more sense to bring it out in a progressive rock band. I didn't start bringing the flute out in my rap career until, at least for my solo career, way later. And I think it was like - something that I did - so, for instance, my first tape ever, "Lizzobangers," all of the flute on that album, which - there's a lot of flute samples - I replayed because we couldn't clear the flute. So I had to actually replay the flute on that - on those songs. So I've been playing flute on my projects forever, but no one knew it was me until now.

GROSS: So how serious were you about a career as a flutist? Flautist? Flautist.

LIZZO: I was - you know, what's crazy? I always say flautist, and then, one day, someone's like, it's flutist. I'm like, shut up.

(LAUGHTER)

LIZZO: But I was very, very, very serious. I studied flute. I played it every night. I - when I was a senior in high school, or a junior, I started studying with the principal flutist of the Houston Opera, and she was also a professor at the University of Houston. So I was studying with Sydney Carlson for years. And she was kind of, like, priming me to go to U of H. She got me my scholarship to U of H. And then, when I was studying with her there, she was setting me up to study at the Paris Conservatory.

GROSS: Wow.

LIZZO: And I was going to to study flute at the Paris Conservatory. And I was going to really just, you know, wait in line for that first chair. I saw a life of Concert Black and Boston Pops and traveling the world. And when that didn't pan out for me, I was very depressed. I was very sad. I don't really know what happened. I think the pressure of those two worlds kind of got to me. Because I was waking up every morning at like 6 a.m. for marching band at U of H, and then I would go to the rehearsal hall, and I would practice in this tiny room for hours.

And then at night, I would stay up and rap at fashion shows, and try to stay up, and keep up with all the fraternities and sororities. And that was really taking a toll on me. And I was like, who are you, you know? At this point, you could do it all through high school, but you're in college now. You're about to be who you're going to be forever. And now, who is that?

GROSS: So you grew up in Detroit. What music did you grow up with?

LIZZO: In Detroit, I grew up with a lot of gospel music. I remember we would listen to "Perfected Praises" over and over and over. That was the Marvin Winans' family album. And they would always come out with family albums, and we would just listen to that. Like, it was strictly gospel. I didn't really listen to secular music or like radio music, but mind you, I was still very, very young. But it shaped who I am today on stage. Like, you get a lot of hallelujah moments from me, and that's from Detroit and growing up in the COGIC church.

GROSS: Which church?

LIZZO: The Church Of God In Christ, which is COGIC.

GROSS: So when you weren't listening to secular music, was that because of the church? Did your parents not want secular music in the house?

LIZZO: I mean, well, you know, it was the devil.

(LAUGHTER)

LIZZO: So we did - so my parents - so the funny thing is, you know, my sister and my brother, who are older than me, they remember different things. Like my dad, he really loved Elton John, and my mom loves Stevie Wonder. So, you know, we would have those types of things. Hall and Oates, you know. Queen, my dad loved Queen. So, like, those things would filter in here and there. But for the most part, you know, we tried to listen to gospel music. Music makes people feel things. And it made me feel things in church that I knew that I could bring to my music. You know what I'm trying to say? So, like, for instance, there was something about the way that the - what's it called? It's like a revival song or shout music. Shout music is when the drummers are going off, and the bass is like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do...

(CLAPPING)

LIZZO: ...You know? And then at that point, everybody's just running around the church and everyone's shouting. Like, that reaction, that visceral, physical reaction that you see in people, that's driven by the music. Like, the pastor talking can make you say amen all day, but there's something about that driving music that makes you want to get out of your seat and run. And I knew that music had the power to move people physically, even - emotionally, but especially physically. So I don't think it's just because we're talking about Jesus, because even in those bass lines, the bass line's not talking about Jesus, the bass line is just running. And it takes you to God, or - you know what I'm saying? It's just a vessel. And so I want to use my music as a vessel to get you where you need to go, to a positive place.

GROSS: OK. So I'm going to play a song that I think really gets you moving. The lyrics are very not spiritual, literally. They're more profane. And I want to play "Boys."

LIZZO: Pfft.

GROSS: (Laughter).

LIZZO: Girl, what? This transition - (laughter). All right. Let's go. This song...

GROSS: It gets you moving...

LIZZO: This song...

GROSS: It gets you moving. And in terms of believing in your music, I think this succeeds.

LIZZO: Yeah. I will say that this song live, out of all the other songs, get the people stomping. So if you ready to stomp, OK, it's "Boys."

GROSS: (Laughter) And I know it's quite a segway from what we were talking about, but I see it as connected. So this is "Boys." And it was released first as a single, but it's an extra on the, like, expanded version of your new album...

LIZZO: Deluxe.

GROSS: "...Cuz I Love You" - The deluxe version. OK, so here's Lizzo.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BOYS")

LIZZO: (Singing) Ay, boy, whatcha (ph) say, boy? You tryna (ph) to play coy like a Gameboy? Hit my phone, boy. Is you home, boy? Are you alone, boy? Come get me dome, boy. Got a boy with degrees, a boy in the streets, a boy on his knees. He a man in the sheets. Sheesh. It's all Greek to me. Got this boy speaking Spanish, ay papi. Baby, I don't need you. I just wanna freak you. I heard you a freak, too. What's two plus two? Four, three, two, ow. Boys, boys, boys. Make a girl go crazy. Four, three, two, ow. Boys, boys, boys. Make a girl go crazy. Four, three. I like big boys, itty-bitty boys, Mississippi boys, inner-city boys. I like the pretty boys with the bow tie. Get your nails did. Let it blow dry. I like a big beard. I like a clean face. I don't discriminate. Come and get a taste. From the playboys to the gay boys. Go and slay, boys. You my fave boys. Baby, I don't need you. I don't need. I just wanna freak you. Want, I want it bad. I heard you a freak, too. That's right. What's two plus two? Four, three, two, ow. Boys, boys, boys.

GROSS: We'll hear more of my 2019 interview with Lizzo after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2019 interview with singer and hip-hop artist Lizzo.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: I know you met Prince when you were living in Minneapolis and...

LIZZO: I was on his album.

GROSS: Yeah. And you did a track on the - on one of his...

LIZZO: "Plectrumelectrum."

GROSS: On "Plectrumelectrum" with 3rdeyegirl and - so how did he find you? Because he invited you to perform for him. He asked you then to do a track for "Plectrumelectrum." So I know you - when you moved to Minneapolis after college - after you - dropping out of college, you became a kind of important part of the music scene there. But so how did - how did he find you? How did he hear you?

LIZZO: OK, so there was a documentary being made about burgeoning musicians and also, like, you know, yeah, I think it was just burgeoning musicians, actually, in Minnesota. And it was on one of the, like, local news stations. And it was us - me and my best friend and my DJ, Sophia Eris' group, The Feeling, who won "The Voice," and "Plectrumelectrum," who is Prince's band. And I think some other people too, but I can't remember (laughter). And they did a piece on us. And the day it aired, The Current, the radio station in Minneapolis called and - or Saint Paul, Minneapolis, they called and said they hit us up and said, yo (ph), you won't believe this, but Prince just sent us an email asking for y'alls contact. And we were like, what? And mind you, this was maybe two years after I moved to Minneapolis. And I was - I couldn't believe it. I was like, well, give him our email - what are you waiting for? (Laughter) And the email just simply said, I would like for you to come to Paisley Park on Easter Sunday and...

GROSS: Easter Sunday? Wow.

LIZZO: Yeah, it was pretty - it was amazing. And to work on a song. And we went and it was magical. And from then on, we had a relationship with Paisley Park and with him where we would just - he would ask us to come perform for his parties, and we would come and perform. And we also had - he, you know, talked about me in interviews. He was like, you know, Lizzo's one to watch, she's up next. When nobody was checking for me, he was checking for, you know, young Black girls and young Black artists and giving us a voice and gave me my first big check. I mean, I have a lot of respect and a deep, profound relationship with one of the greatest artists of all time. So that's all I can say about that.

GROSS: OK, so I want to break here and play another song. And this is from your 2016 EP "Coconut Oil." And the song is "Good as Hell." I really love this. I know a lot of people do. Again, I'm going to ask you to talk about, you know, writing it and conceiving the sound.

LIZZO: Yeah. "Good As Hell" was the first time I had written a song that I was like, wow, this song could be on the radio. I never saw myself as, like, a big artist like that, that would have - I was very much indie minded, you know? And I remember it was one of the first songs I wrote with Ricky Reed. And we were in the studio. And I - he flew me out to LA. And I was like, oh, OK. I was, like, feeling myself. And we sat down, and he played this piano riff. And he said, how does this make you feel? And I was like, you know how it makes me feel? And I did a little hair flip. And I checked my nails. I was like, makes me feel like everything's going to be OK, you know. It's like, it makes me feel good as hell. And he was, like, all right. And that was, like, the basis of our relationship. Like, he would literally take words from my mouth and be, like, you know you just wrote the lyric, right?

GROSS: (Laughter).

LIZZO: And I was like, really? So this was the beginning of a very beautiful relationship.

GROSS: OK. Let's hear it. This is "Good As Hell" from Lizzo's EP, "Coconut Oil."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "GOOD AS HELL")

LIZZO: (Singing) I do my hair toss, check my nails. Baby, how you feeling? Feeling good as hell. Hair toss, check my nails. Baby how you feeling? Feeling good as hell. Woo child, tired of the bullshit. Go on dust your shoulders off, keep it moving. Yes Lord, tryna (ph) get some new shit. In there, swimwear, going to the pool shit. Come now, come dry your eyes. You know you a star. You can touch the sky. I know that it's hard, but you have to try. If you need advice, let me simplify. If he don't love you anymore? Just walk your fine ass out the door. I do my hair toss, check my nails. Baby, how you feeling? Feeling good as hell. Woo, girl, need to kick off your shoes. Got to take a deep breath, time to focus on you. All the big fights, long nights that you been through? I've got a bottle of tequila I've been saving for you. Boss up and change your life. You can have it all, no sacrifice. I know he did you wrong. We can make it right. So go and let it all hang out tonight. 'Cause he don't love you anymore. So walk your fine ass out the door and do your hair toss, check my nails. Baby, how you feeling? Feeling good as hell.

GROSS: We'll hear more of my 2019 interview with Lizzo after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with singer and musician Lizzo in 2019.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: So, you know, I read that when you were in, I guess, middle school that there was a period when you used to, like, put plastic wrap around your tummy and around your feet to make them smaller, kind of like girdling them. Can you compare your mindset about yourself physically then to what it is now?

LIZZO: (Laughter) OK. So I will say this. I would put plastic wrap around my stomach and I would walk and I would try to work out every morning in middle school. And I would try to, like, lose all the fat off my stomach. But the shoe thing is real because my feet were so wide, I would make my shoes slouch. And people would make fun of the fact that my shoes would slouch. Kids will make fun of anything, bro. Kids will find something about you - they would even make fun of the fact that your shirt had, like, nipples on it if it was on the hanger for too long. They'd be like, oh, you got [expletive] on your shoulders. So kids were so mean that I...

(LAUGHTER)

LIZZO: It's wild, right? I would go out of my way to - I would tape my feet up because I read about it. I read that women in, like, Asia would bind their feet. And, you know, I'm in middle school reading about this, and I was like, I'm going to bind my feet so that my shoes don't slouch over, especially my new ones. And - because I cared so much about what people thought because there was such a crazy consequence associated with being a little different. And I think that that consequence now is completely - it's the opposite, you know?

Now being different makes you stand out. Now being different makes you a star. And I think that I had to embrace those differences to become the person that I am or - you know what I'm saying? - the star that I am. Or else I would have just been homogenized like everybody else. I think when you're in middle school and in high school, you want to be like everybody else. You want to amalgamize and you want to be normal so badly. But I just couldn't help being weird. I was so weird that people went out of their way to point it out for me. And now I'm so grateful for that.

GROSS: I just want to ask you about one more song and it's called "My Skin," and I want you to talk about the song.

LIZZO: "My Skin" is a song that I wrote. And it was - I would like to say that this was the beginning of my body positive songwriting journey. I wrote it because someone asked a question. (Singing) Someone asked a question.

Hold on, Jesus. They asked me, what's my favorite thing about myself? And I told them my personality. And they said, OK, but physically, what's your favorite thing about yourself? And I did not have an answer. And for the first time in my life, I had to actually think about something that I liked about myself physically. And because it was so difficult, I was moved to tears. And in that moment, I remembered that, you know, I had just - well, I just fallen off a cliff because I was...

GROSS: Literally?

LIZZO: I was rope swinging into the river. And I am just so heavy, and the rope - I fell off the rope and fell on the ground. It was really scary and traumatizing. I'll never do anything like that again. But I scraped up my skin, and I remember my friend was like, look what you did to your beautiful skin. And I still had the cane and I had the bandages on my legs during this interview. And I looked down and I was like, oh, my God, my skin. That is my favorite thing about myself. And it was in that moment where I realized I had damaged my skin where I saw the value in it. And that was the first time I'd ever discovered my body love. And I just started with my skin and moved on from there. And I wrote this song to celebrate that moment because it literally changed my life.

GROSS: Lizzo, thank you so much for talking with us. And thank you for your music.

LIZZO: Thank you.

GROSS: My interview with Lizzo was recorded in 2019 after the release of her album "Cuz I Love You." Her latest album, "Special," was released earlier this year.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MY SKIN")

LIZZO: (Rapping) Real world, big girl meets world. A crazy position, now your dreams is your mission, huh. Staring in the mirror, realizing, wish it worked. Now all I wish is for a chance to give my kids a Ford. I got a family tree that's worth praising the Lord. Mama, looking like the second, woo. Look at God. Sister like a soldier, hold it down. Southwest going to hold it down. I love you. Don't forget it. You beautiful Black masterpiece. Boy, they don't make brothers like you. Make it happen with that Black girl magic The hat trick off of what we must do. (Singing) I woke up in this, I woke up in this, in my skin.

GROSS: Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, as we continue our weeklong series of interviews with musicians from our archive, we'll feature songwriter and singer Rosanne Cash. In 1973, when she was 18, her father, Johnny Cash, gave her a list of 100 essential country songs. I spoke with her in 2009 after she recorded 12 of those songs on her album "The List." I hope you'll join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "2 BE LOVED (AM I READY)")

LIZZO: (Rapping) Girl, I'm about to have a panic attack. I did the work. It didn't work. That truth, it hurts. Goddam, it hurts. That lovey-dovey, was not a fan of it. I'm good with my friends. I don't want a man, girl. I'm in my bed. I'm way too fine to be here alone. On other hand, I know my worth. And now he callin' me. Why do I feel like this? What's happenin' to me? Oh, oh, oh. (Singing) Am I ready? Girl, there ain't a doubt. Am I ready? What you talkin' 'bout?

GROSS: Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "2 BE LOVED (AM I READY)")

LIZZO: (Singing) How am I supposed to love somebody else when I don't like myself, like, ooh. Guess I better learn to like this, ooh...
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