'Both Sides of the Blade' is a French melodrama about intimacy and illicit desire

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey, in for Terry Gross. Today we're going to listen to portions of our interviews with an actor and with a sports star, both of whom are new recipients of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor.

First, we hear from actor, director and producer Denzel Washington. One of his first acting jobs was playing an intern on the NBC medical series "Saint Elsewhere" in the 1980s. Since then, he's won two Academy Awards - in 1990 for his supporting role in "Glory" and in 2002 for his starring role in "Training Day." His other films include "Malcolm X," "Philadelphia," "Mo' Better Blues" and "American Gangster." More recently, he starred opposite Frances McDormand in "The Tragedy Of Macbeth," which earned him an Oscar nomination. In 2010, Washington won a Tony Award for his leading role in the August Wilson play "Fences." And in 2014, he co-starred in the Broadway revival of another play, "A Raisin In The Sun." Aside from his work on stage and screen, Washington has served for over 25 years as national spokesman for the Boys and Girls Club of America.

Terry spoke to Denzel Washington in 2008. He had just directed and starred in the film "The Great Debaters." He played a coach and mentor to a debating team at a small African American college in the segregated South, preparing to break the color line by taking on an Ivy League debating team. Terry asked him about the contrast between this role and his role as a corrupt cop in "Training Day" and the drug kingpin in "American Gangster."

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Does it affect you differently when you're off the set if you're playing, you know, a drug kingpin who will willingly kill somebody if he thinks it's necessary versus, you know, a professor whose, like, mission is training his students to be winning debaters? I mean, that's such two different kinds of personalities. Does it change what you take home with you at night?

DENZEL WASHINGTON: You know, I read a book years ago, "Cagney By Cagney," written by James Cagney. And he talked about, you know, it's his job. He's at the studio. You do your job. You know, you shut your door, and you go get in your car and go home. I guess it does. I couldn't tell you what it is 'cause I'm not thinking about it. But basically - well, it's different in the case of directing because you don't ever turn off the - you're working all the time. But when I finished "American Gangster," I was done with it. I didn't, you know, think about going into the drug business. I don't know. You know, it's a job. And I've been at it a long time, and I know how to do my job, I think. But, no, I don't think I carry it around too much, I hope.

GROSS: Well, we should hear a clip from "American Gangster." And you play a drug kingpin in Harlem in this. And you've brought up your family from the South, and you've basically made your brothers into foot soldiers for your operation. And one of your brothers, played by Chiwetel Ejiofor, is kind of so kind of taken by, like, the money and what he could do with it. So he's wearing this outfit with, you know, like, a - it's the early '70s with a big collar and a big hat. And you think it's, like, much too flashy. And in this scene here, you're explaining why that's a problem.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "AMERICAN GANGSTER")

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) What is that you got on?

CHIWETEL EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) What's what, man?

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) Yeah, that - what you got on.

EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) This is a very, very, very nice suit.

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) That's a very, very, very nice suit, huh? That's a clown suit. That's a costume...

EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) Come on, man.

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) ...With a big sign on it that says, arrest me. You understand? You're too loud. You're making too much noise. Look at me. The loudest one in the room is the weakest one in the room. I told you that, all right? What - you trying to be like Nicky Barnes now?

EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) What's your problem with Nicky, man? I like Nicky.

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) I ain't got no problem with Nicky. Oh, you like Nicky.

EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) Yeah.

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) You want to be like Nicky? You want to be superfly? You want to work for him, share a jail cell with him, maybe cook for him?

EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) He wants to talk to you.

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) Oh, so now you talking to him about me.

EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) What? You...

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) About what? What is it about?

EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) It ain't like that.

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) Then what is it like?

EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) We were talking, and your name came up.

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) About what?

EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) I don't know, man. I told him I'd tell you.

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) You know, boy...

(SOUNDBITE OF KISS)

WASHINGTON: (As Frank Lucas) You know, if you wasn't my brother, I'd kill you. You know that, don't you? I'm taking you shopping this week.

EJIOFOR: (As Huey Lucas) I went shopping.

GROSS: That's my guest Denzel Washington with Chiwetel Ejiofor in a scene from "American Gangster." I remember when I interviewed Michael Caine, he talked about how, when you're playing somebody who's very powerful, you shouldn't, like, move around and fidget a lot, gesture a lot because powerful people don't have to do all that because the people underneath them are hanging on the powerful person's every word and looking for every clue that they can about what his mood is and what's he going to do next and how he's reacting to things. And it seems to me like you're that kind of person in "American Gangster." You don't move around a lot. You don't gesture a lot. You've got a lot of power. And you know you do. You met Frank Lucas, the person who your role is based on. Was he like that when you met him?

WASHINGTON: Well, I mean, you know, Gotti moved around a lot. He had a lot of power. I don't know. I personally wouldn't hold any hard, fast rules about who moves around a lot or who doesn't. I've never thought of it that way. The perception of power is power. Yeah. I think the perception is established by his violence right at the top of the movie.

GROSS: Yeah.

WASHINGTON: So you see a guy who's this violent who can walk down the street, shoot somebody in the head, come back inside and forget. His only question was, what was I talking about before I was interrupted? You know, that's a sociopath.

GROSS: I really like "American Gangster" and your performance in it.

WASHINGTON: Thank you.

GROSS: Does it ever bother you to play people who aren't role models? Like, in life, so many people see you as a role model. Does it bother you? Like, in "The Great Debaters," you are very role model. You know, you're very ethical.

WASHINGTON: No, it doesn't bother me. I mean, I'm selfish, I think. I think an artist has to be. You know, I'm not worried about what people think. I'm going to play the parts that I find interesting. That's what - it bothered me more to be just pigeonholed into doing what people think is ethical. Or, you know, that's boring to me. I don't pick parts with that in mind, and I just find interesting stories. If it's interesting to me, then I do it.

GROSS: One of your most known role model performances is in "Training Day," for which you won an Oscar. And I'd like to play a short scene from that. And in this scene, you're a cop who is really brutal when he wants to be and really nasty. And you're initiating this new rookie cop who's your partner, played by Ethan Hawke. And in this scene, Ethan Hawke has been trying to apprehend two suspects - probably, like, crack addicts. They've beaten him up. He's finally gotten them handcuffed. You haven't helped him at all. You've basically just been watching. And then after he gets them handcuffed, you kind of move in, insult them, take $60 out of one of their pockets. And you decide not to arrest them. You just leave them there. And Ethan Hawke is mystified. And here's the conversation in the car afterwards.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "TRAINING DAY")

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo Harris) Want to book that 60 bucks? Here. Go ahead. Book it into evidence, man. Where the suspects? Go back and get the suspects.

ETHAN HAWKE: (As Jake Hoyt) I don't know where they are. You let them go.

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo Harris) Oh, I let them go.

HAWKE: (As Jake Hoyt) You let them go.

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo Harris) All right, man. You want to run and gun, man? Stay in patrol, OK? This is investigations, all right? Let the garbage men handle the garbage. We're professional anglers, OK? We go after the big fish, chasing them monkey-strong crackhead mother*******. Anyway, you know they'd have killed you without hesitating.

HAWKE: (As Jake Hoyt) I know. That's why they belong in prison.

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo Harris) For what? They got beat down. They lost their rock. They lost their money. Them SH from Hillside probably going to smoke them. I mean, Jesus. What more you want?

HAWKE: (As Jake Hoyt) I want justice.

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo Harris) Is that not justice?

HAWKE: (As Jake Hoyt) That's street justice.

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo Harris) What's wrong with street justice?

HAWKE: (As Jake Hoyt) Oh, what - just let the animals wipe themselves out, right?

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo Harris) God willing. [Expletive] them, everybody who looks like them. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. The good guys - they die first, right? The schoolkids and moms and family men - they're the ones that catch the stray bullets in the noodle. To protect the sheep, you got to catch the wolf. And it takes a wolf to catch a wolf. You understand?

HAWKE: (As Jake) What?

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo) I said you protect the sheep...

HAWKE: (As Jake) OK, I heard you.

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo) ...By killing the [expletive] wolves. No, you didn't hear me. You listening, but you didn't hear me.

HAWKE: (As Jake) Yeah, all right, whatever.

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo) Yeah, whatever. Whatever the [expletive] ever.

HAWKE: (As Jake) Let me ask you this then. When do you lock anybody up? I mean, it seems like you're pretty busy keeping people out.

WASHINGTON: (As Alonzo) What the [expletive] you talking about? You don't know what you're talking about, Betty Boop. Got nothing but [expletive] between your ears. They build jails 'cause of me. Judges have handed out over 15,000 man-years of incarceration time based on my investigations, OK? My record speaks for itself. How many felons have you collared, huh? Yeah, I rest my case.

GROSS: That's my guest, Denzel Washington, with Ethan Hawke in a scene from "Training Day." And Denzel Washington won an Oscar for his performance in this film. And of course, after what we just heard, since you've said it takes a wolf to catch a wolf, you teach Ethan Hawke how to howl (laughter) like a wolf. You make him howl...

WASHINGTON: (Imitates wolf howl).

GROSS: (Laughter).

WASHINGTON: Right.

GROSS: Now, I read that you wanted to make sure that this cop, your - you know, the character you played, was killed at the end or that there were real consequences for his behavior.

WASHINGTON: Exactly.

GROSS: Was that not the case when you first saw the script?

WASHINGTON: No, not to the degree that was satisfying to me. Like, as I told the director, I couldn't justify him living in the worst way unless he died in the worst way - that the community turns their back on him, he's slapped around, crawling around on the ground like a snake, and basically gets filled full of lead. So we just made it a violent, awful ending for him.

GROSS: And why did you insist on that?

WASHINGTON: I just thought that's what he deserved. There was a bit of a cop-out the way the script was, and it smelled like they were looking to do a part two or something.

GROSS: Uh-huh (laughter). There is a scene in this where you're holding two guns on someone, and you kind of scrape the guns against each other as if they're two knives that you're sharpening. Now, was that a bit of business that you came up with when you were holding the guns?

WASHINGTON: Of course. I mean, you know, it's just rhythm, you know? Acting is like music, you know? And you improvise, and you - it's like jazz, you know? There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's not a plan. I just did it. You know, it's just a rhythm. It's - to me, it's just a rhythm. It's like you do - Stanislavski said, you know, you cut 90%. You do all your research, and you prepare, and then, you let it rip, you know? And that's how it is, you know? You practice the music, and then, you just play it.

GROSS: Well, let's talk about another film that's very important in your career, and that's "Malcolm X," which was directed by Spike Lee. Let's hear a scene from it. And this is a scene in which you're making a speech.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MALCOLM X")

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) I must emphasize at the out start that the honorable Elijah Muhammad is not a politician.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) That's right.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) That's right.

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) So I'm not here this afternoon as a Republican nor as a Democrat.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Tell it, brother.

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) Not as a Mason nor as an Elk.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) Tell us what you're here for.

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) Not as a Protestant nor a Catholic.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Tell it.

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) Not as a Christian...

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) Come on, brother.

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) ...Nor a Jew.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) All right now.

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) Not as a Baptist nor a Methodist.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Come on, brother. Come on.

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) In fact, not even as an American. Because if I was an American, the problem that confronts our people today wouldn't even exist.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) So now we ain't Americans, huh?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character) What are you trying to say, brother?

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) So I have to stand here today as what I was when I was born - a Black man.

(APPLAUSE)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) Before there was any such thing as a Republican or a Democrat, we were Black. Before there was any such thing as a Mason or an Elk, we were Black.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #7: (As character) Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character). That's right.

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) Before there was any such thing as a Jew or a Christian, we were Black people. In fact, before there was any such place as America, we were Black.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #8: (As character) Right.

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) And after America has long passed from the scene, there will still be Black people.

(APPLAUSE)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) I'm going to tell you like it really is. Every election year, these politicians are sent up here to pacify us. They're sent here and set up here by the white men. This is what they do. They send drugs in Harlem down here to pacify us.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) They send alcohol down here to pacify us.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) They send prostitution down here to pacify us.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) Why, you can't even get drugs in Harlem without the white man's permission.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) You can't get prostitution in Harlem without the white man's permission.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) You can't get gambling in Harlem without the white man's permission. Every time you break the seal on that liquor bottle, that's a government seal you're breaking. Oh, I say and I say it again, you've been had.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) You've been took.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) You've been hoodwinked.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) Bamboozled.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) Led astray.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) Run amok.

(SOUNDBITE OF CROWD SHOUTING)

WASHINGTON: (As Malcolm X) This is what he does.

GROSS: That's Denzel Washington in a scene from "Malcolm X" for which he was nominated for an Academy Award. When did Malcolm X first enter your consciousness?

WASHINGTON: I hadn't heard that in about 15 years.

GROSS: Yeah? What'd you think, looking back?

WASHINGTON: Well, it was interesting. I hadn't heard it in a long time. I hadn't heard it since I'd seen the movie, I guess. Sounded pretty good.

GROSS: Yeah.

WASHINGTON: I believed him.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Since...

WASHINGTON: When did I what now, you said?

GROSS: So when did Malcolm X enter your consciousness?

WASHINGTON: I did a play about Malcolm X, actually, about 10, 11 years before that down at the new Federal Theatre in New York City, Henry Street Settlement - a fictional meeting between the honorable Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X. So that's when I really began to dig deep and listen to all the speeches and read his books and study the man. I mean, I knew who he was, but I didn't know who he was until about 1981.

BIANCULLI: Denzel Washington speaking to Terry Gross in 2008. More after a break, this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF TED NASH'S "THE FOUR FREEDOMS (FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT)")

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2008 interview with actor, director and producer Denzel Washington. The Oscar- and Tony-winning actor has just been awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

(SOUNDBITE OF NPR ARCHIVED RECORDING)

GROSS: Let's go to the very early Denzel era. And let's see if our listeners recognize you in this scene. And hint - it's the pilot for a series, a TV series, that ran a long time, and you co-starred throughout the run. And it helped make you a star. So here we go, the very early Denzel.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "ST. ELSEWHERE")

WASHINGTON: (As Dr. Philip Chandler) 42-year-old white, obese female - four-day history of right upper quadrant pain, no history of cholithiasis (ph) or peptic ulcer disease.

ED FLANDERS: (As Dr. Donald Westphall) Mmm-hmm. Has the pain changed with time or position?

WASHINGTON: (As Dr. Chandler) No, physical examination temperature was 39.5 degrees centigrade, blood pressure 130 over 80. No jaundice present.

FLANDERS: (As Dr. Westphall) Is the abdomen distended?

WASHINGTON: (As Dr. Chandler) No, there's a plus-two over four tenderness in the right upper quadrant. The liver is 10 centimeters in breadth, 2 centimeters below the right costal margin. There is a palpable mass just below the liver edge with a positive Murphy sign.

Jesus.

GROSS: (Laughter) That's your first scene.

WASHINGTON: I think I mispronounced that.

GROSS: (Laughter).

WASHINGTON: I think it's cholelithia (ph). I think it's cholelithiasis. It sounds like I said cholithiasis (ph). I believe - any doctors out there, if they call in, let me know. I believe it's cholelithiasis.

GROSS: Well, that's you in your first scene in the pilot of "St. Elsewhere."

WASHINGTON: Twenty-five years ago.

GROSS: Yeah, yeah.

WASHINGTON: But I remember that cholelithiasis. That's interesting.

GROSS: That is. I hope you never had it, whatever the heck it is (laughter).

WASHINGTON: Yeah, I couldn't tell you what it is.

GROSS: How did you get the part on "St. Elsewhere"?

WASHINGTON: I was doing a great play - and I say that 'cause it was - called "A Soldier's Play," which went on to become "A Soldier's Story" - you know, won a Pulitzer Prize in 1982.

GROSS: The movie version was "A Soldier's Story."

WASHINGTON: Yeah, the movie version was "A Soldier's Story." The play was an off-Broadway play in New York, and they came to New York reading actors. I never really wanted to do television. I wanted to do plays and movies, and I didn't want to become well-known for television. But this was an interesting script with many characters, so my agent thought, well, you know, you could get lost amongst the other characters. And so they - to make a long story long, they chose two actors, I believe, from New York, myself and David Morse.

GROSS: What was the audition like?

WASHINGTON: Shoot, that was 25 years ago. I don't remember. I guess it was good. I got the part.

GROSS: You don't remember...

WASHINGTON: I guess it was good.

GROSS: ...What you had to do?

WASHINGTON: Oh, no. No, I - actually, I don't. I imagine I - maybe I read that scene. Maybe that's what I had to do, you know? And did you say that was from the pilot?

GROSS: It's from the pilot.

WASHINGTON: That was from - so maybe that's - that's probably what I had to read. That's a perfect example of where your speech training and training in the classics, you know, Shakespearian training, comes in - to be able to say those lines.

GROSS: And to rattle off all those...

WASHINGTON: To rattle off all the - yeah, all of that...

GROSS: ...Medical conditions most people don't know. Yeah.

WASHINGTON: ...Techno speak - yeah, exactly. I don't know. Cholelithiasis - I do remember that, though.

GROSS: So straighten me out on something. When I say your name, should it be Denzel, equal beats on both syllables, or Denzel, more emphasis on the second syllable?

WASHINGTON: The doctor who delivered my father was named Doctor Denzel. And he had 11 or 12 brothers and sisters, so maybe they were running out of names. And they just named him after the doctor. So his name was pronounced Denzel Hayes Washington Sr. I'm Denzel Hayes Washington Jr. My mother would say Denzel, and both of us would show up.

GROSS: (Laughter).

WASHINGTON: She said, all right, from now on - she says this is not true, but this is the way I remember it. But she said, from now on, you're Denzel. So I was named - I was called Denzel, so we would know who she was screaming at.

GROSS: Now, when you were growing up, your mother owned a hair salon?

WASHINGTON: Yeah.

GROSS: And your father was a Pentecostal minister who also worked for the water department.

WASHINGTON: And S. Klein's On The Square.

GROSS: Oh.

WASHINGTON: He was the night watchman for Klein's up in the office...

GROSS: Klein's department store? Oh, oh, I see this is a different...

WASHINGTON: ...On Central Avenue in - yeah, well, the original one was on the square - 14th Street, I believe.

GROSS: On Union Square.

WASHINGTON: Yeah.

GROSS: Yeah.

WASHINGTON: And - because it used to be called S. Klein's On The Square.

GROSS: Oh.

WASHINGTON: And so they had one up in Yonkers on Central Avenue, and he was the night man there. And he was a minister.

GROSS: Did you go to his church?

WASHINGTON: No, of course not. Yeah, you kidding me? - all the time, more than I wanted to, trust me. I used to try to sneak out - had to go to church.

GROSS: How often - once a week or more?

WASHINGTON: Once a - shoot, all day Sunday, and then we - not that - because he worked so much. You know, we didn't have so many services during the week. But I was there all day on Sunday in Mamaroneck.

GROSS: One last question - is there a particular movie that meant a lot to you when you were growing up, that you watched many times?

WASHINGTON: Yup.

GROSS: What would that be?

WASHINGTON: "Wizard Of Oz."

GROSS: Really?

WASHINGTON: I loved that movie. That was the big - that was the event of the year, to watch - are you kidding me? The wizard - I was like, turn "Bonanza" off. "The Wizard Of Oz" is coming on.

(LAUGHTER)

WASHINGTON: You know, "Bonanza" was huge. I mean, you know, when I was a kid, "Bonanza" was huge.

GROSS: Yes.

WASHINGTON: That was it.

GROSS: Yeah.

WASHINGTON: That's what we got to watch Sunday night, "Bonanza," "Ed Sullivan Show" - that then "Bonanza." When I sign an autograph now, I always write, God bless, and I put my name. And I got that from Red Skelton because at the end of "The Red Skelton Show," he would say, good night and God bless. And I was like, I always liked that. So I said - you know, I didn't say, when I get famous, 'cause I wasn't even thinking about it then. But when I did sign my first autograph, for whatever reason, I thought about that. And so thank you, Red Skelton.

GROSS: Oh.

WASHINGTON: And thank you, "Bonanza." And thank you, Auntie Em (laughter) and everybody else.

GROSS: Did you love the songs? Did you love the songs from "The Wizard Of Oz"?

WASHINGTON: Are you kidding me? (Singing) Follow the yellow brick road.

GROSS: (Laughter).

WASHINGTON: (Vocalizing, singing) Wherever a wiz (ph) there was. Follow the yellow brick road.

You know, I mean, that was - you got to remember, they only showed that, like, once a year. What was it? What was the guy's name? Danny Kaye.

GROSS: Oh, Danny Kaye.

WASHINGTON: Danny Kaye would introduce it. Right. Danny Kaye would introduce - I mean, we couldn't wait. That was huge - huge. And then, of course, "King Kong."

GROSS: Oh.

WASHINGTON: Yeah, 'cause "Million Dollar Movie" - they would show the same movie...

GROSS: "Million Dollar Movie," yes.

WASHINGTON: ...Like, 90 times the same week.

GROSS: "King Kong," "Godzilla," "Godzilla."

WASHINGTON: "King Kong," "Godzilla."

GROSS: "Hunchback Of Notre Dame."

WASHINGTON: I didn't watch that one. You're asking me. This is what I remember.

GROSS: Great. It's been so much fun to talk with you. Thank you very much.

WASHINGTON: Bye. All right. (Singing) Because, because, because, because...

BIANCULLI: Denzel Washington speaking to Terry Gross in 2008. The actor, director and producer has just been awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom. After a break, we'll hear from another new recipient of that same award, Olympic soccer champion and LGBTQ activist Megan Rapinoe. And Justin Chang reviews the new French film "Both Sides Of The Blade," starring Juliette Binoche. I'm David Bianculli. And this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BRANFORD MARSALIS QUARTET'S "MO' BETTER BLUES")

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Today, we're listening to our interviews with two new recipients of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian honor. We just heard from one of them, Denzel Washington. Next, we hear from Megan Rapinoe, an icon as a champion soccer player and as an activist. She's been co-captain of the U.S. Women's National Soccer Team since 2018. Rapinoe also helped her team win a gold medal at the 2012 Olympics. And she captains the team OL Reign in the National Women's Soccer League.

For a while, she was practically the only openly gay player on the U.S. Women's National Team, which put her in the spotlight as an LGBTQ activist. She's fought for equal pay in women's soccer and was part of a lawsuit against the U.S. Soccer Federation. In February, a settlement was reached between U.S. Soccer and the women players for equal pay. In 2016, a week after Colin Kaepernick took a knee during the national anthem, Rapinoe took a knee in support and faced the consequences. Terry Gross spoke to Megan Rapinoe in 2020 about her memoir, which was titled "One Life." That same year, she had recently announced her engagement to Sue Bird, a champion player in the WNBA.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Megan Rapinoe, welcome to FRESH AIR. When you started playing soccer when you were around 6, there wasn't, like, a girls team for you to be part of, so you and your twin sister became members of the boys team. How did it feel for you as a girl to be on the boys team 'cause, you know, another thing you say in your book is that you don't think you ever dominated a team the way you dominated that boys team when you were a child?

MEGAN RAPINOE: (Laughter).

GROSS: And, you know, I'm also wondering, like, did the boys really appreciate that? Like, she's really great, and she's on our team. Or did they think it was weird or maybe even uncomfortable that a girl was, like, beating them? You know, you were on the same team, but you were better than they were.

RAPINOE: You know, I don't think I ever really, really thought about it, probably until, you know, fifth or sixth grade - I think that's when, you know, gender lines are drawn more clearly - because, you know, all growing up, we played with each other, we played with boys. It was, you know, during recess, during, you know, intramural sports or whatever it may be - sort of our town sports. It was just kind of, like, what it was. And I think from a very early age, my sister, Rachael, and I were always the best. Like, there was no question. So it wasn't like, you know, we were coming up against these boys and kind of holding our own or kind of not. We were kind of kicking everyone's butt. So I don't think the boys even looked at us like, oh, these are girls, and we're not supposed to lose to girls. It's kind of like, well, yeah, those are the twins, and, like, they're better than everyone.

It was interesting, actually. I think that we were maybe 11 or 12. We played on a boys team that traveled to Sacramento - so we're from a pretty small town in Northern California called Redding; it's about 2 1/2 hours' drive from Sacramento - to a town that, you know, I think because they have so many kids and the sports programs were a lot better, the soccer programs were a lot better, they were split up by boys and girls, I'm sure, a lot earlier. But ours was kind of like, well, let's just get the best, you know, 20 kids that we can find, and we'll just work with that.

But the parents on the other team and even the boys on the other team were really kind of taken aback by it. You know, comments coming from the parents on the sideline - oh, don't let that girl beat you. Or the boys, you could just tell, on the other team were just uncomfortable with the fact that they were being beaten or being bettered by a girl. But that was kind of the first time I sort of realized, like, oh, these parents are not used to this, and clearly this is something that they should look a little deeper into 'cause they seem quite upset.

GROSS: You write that you knew you were never going to be the fastest player or the strongest player, so you had to develop a style rooted in something other than beating people through physical force. Do you think that thinking that you wouldn't be, like, the strongest or the fastest helped you develop your footwork?

RAPINOE: Oh, yeah. Definitely. I think it helped me develop not just my footwork, but my awareness in the game. I mean, obviously, the ultimate goal in soccer is to, you know, get the ball and score. Some people can outrun everyone. Some people are better understanding spatial awareness. I think I was good at that. I think I was understanding, you know, how I could make space for myself in a sort of a strategic way. I mean, I think I'm athletic enough, obviously, to be able to, you know, run fast and do things. But I think I just developed other parts of my game that no matter how fast you are, how strong you are, you can still be really successful if you're creative with the game, if you have good vision, if you know how to get open, if you know how to pull defenses apart, if you can anticipate all of those kinds of things.

GROSS: So I want to ask you about one of your most spectacular plays, which a lot of us have seen either when it happened or on YouTube 'cause the video went viral. It was in 2011. You kick the ball across the field - a big, amazing cross - and then Abby Wambach headed it into the goal. So I want you to describe it from your perspective.

RAPINOE: We're in Dresden, Germany. It's 2011. This is my first World Cup. The game is going very strange from the outset. The crowd, actually, was quite neutral. I think whenever we travel, we generally get a pretty pro-American crowd. There's been very few times where we haven't had that. But the game was weird. We had gotten a red card in, like, the 60th minute, maybe, so one of our players was ejected. I think we were losing at the time, maybe 2-1. And it was - you just felt a weird sort of energy in the crowd.

I think around the time that our player got ejected, Brazil, which is famous - I mean, it's more, honestly, South American countries. And I never really have a problem with it. I think that, like, people always say, like, oh, they're not playing fairly or it's bad sportsmanship, but it really, truly is, like, the way that you learn the game in South America. And it's just a different style than we play, but that doesn't make it wrong. And so I just wanted to put that out there. So they started, you know, wasting time and using, you know, different tactics. But I think they were just trying to waste time and get to the end of the game.

So we end up tying it up. We end up going into overtime. They score in overtime. And you can kind of feel the crowd turn on them as they start to, you know, have more antics and try to waste more time and this and that. So there was some whistling happening. It was just a very strange time.

And we get down to the very final minutes of the game. I mean, we're already past the time. I think it was in the 122nd minute. And I'm really just thinking to myself, like, we're going to lose. Like, oh my God. Like, we're going to lose. The ball - you know, I'm looking at the clock. It's down in our end. We've just, you know, taken the ball from the Brazilians. And then I'm just like, we're going to be, you know, the U.S. team that goes out the earliest that we've ever had. And it's just, you know, tragic.

We start to dribble up the field. It comes across to the middle. Carli Lloyd gets the ball. And I'm just thinking, like, it seemed like she held onto the ball and dribbled the ball for five hours, but it was probably, you know, three seconds. It finally comes over to me. And in all of its sense, it was just a Hail Mary. I didn't see Abby, but I knew she better be there (laughter). I was like, I don't know where else you would be. But you better be somewhere around where I'm trying to kick it. And I just heaved it. I just kicked it literally as hard as I could.

And it was one of the most incredible sports moments ever - all the drama, all of the back story, all of the rivalry. You have this insane, sort of last-second goal, which very rarely happens in soccer. I mean, essentially, that - the game was over. We went into - you know, we tied it up, went into overtime and won in penalties. But that was sort of the deciding moment. And it was just an exceptional moment of emotion, I think, for everybody to feel at the same time, from the players on the field to the crowd, to the people back home. It was just insane.

GROSS: You were one of the first women on the U.S. national women's soccer team to come out. Although, you say there were plenty of other women who were gay but not out (laughter). You say you were one of the only gay players at the time, which is hilarious considering how many gay people were really on the team (laughter). So...

RAPINOE: Yes.

GROSS: ...What made you decide, like, you were going to publicly come out?

RAPINOE: You know, I honestly felt like - I mean, even going back to when I first sort of discovered I was gay myself, which happened very shortly after I got to college, I never struggled with that. I was actually thrilled. I thought, OK, this is awesome. I felt like my whole life sort of, like, clicked into place. And it just gave me this whole new sense of myself. And just this confidence, I think, kind of bloomed and exploded in me. And it was during - I mean, I think, at the time - maybe just before that - Prop 8 had been on the ballot in California. I'm from California. You know, generally, I think these cases were coming before the Supreme Court.

And it just be-kind-of-came (ph) like, why am I not out? I didn't really have a lot of, you know, interaction with media where I had to hide it or what - you know, nobody was asking. That's not really an appropriate question to ask someone. But it just became one of those things where I did start to notice myself saying some things and not others. And I just was like, what am I doing? Like, why am I even doing that? And why am I not out knowing that it could probably have a really positive impact?

And so I just kind of made the decision. It was actually on the plane ride home from that 2011 World Cup. I was sitting next to my friend Lori, who's also out and played on the team for a long time. And it was just - yeah, it just kind of became, like, why am I not out? This is not feeling right. And so I took, I think, a couple months to sort of figure out exactly what I wanted to do and then came out before the London Olympics in 2012.

GROSS: And what changed afterwards?

RAPINOE: Publicly, I think, a lot changed. I still, to this day, have, you know, people coming up to me or writing to me or whatever it may be, you know, thanking me or saying, you know, I'm the reason they felt OK with themselves, or I'm the reason their family was OK - or, you know, parents coming up to me who, you know, very clearly have little budding gay children. And even if it's an unspoken thing, it's - they see themselves in me.

They see a future for their children that isn't, you know, just all about the stereotype that you hear, which is how hard life is to be gay. And not to say that life isn't difficult being gay. For a lot of people, it really is. But it's not all bad. It's not all struggle. Whenever I go into a room, like, we don't have to talk about the fact that I'm gay. Or an interview or whatever doesn't have to be all about that. But I'm very out and proud and will show that and will live a very out and open life. And I think that that's vital for people to see.

BIANCULLI: Soccer player and social activist Megan Rapinoe speaking to Terry GROSS in 2020. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF HUGH MASEKELA'S "GRAZING IN THE GRASS")

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2020 interview with soccer star and activist Megan Rapinoe, who's just been awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom. In 2016, a week after Colin Kaepernick took a knee during the national anthem, Rapinoe took a knee in support. Terry asked her why she did it and what the immediate reactions were.

RAPINOE: Well, the immediate reaction was bad...

(LAUGHTER)

RAPINOE: ...From most people, I would say, but I think bad in the mainstream sense, bad in the, you know, Twittersphere and all of that, but - and bad among, you know, white people. But, actually, I would say the amount of support - which came later and came in different ways, you know, from Black people, white people, people all across the spectrum - so far outweighed all of the negativity. But, of course, mainstream media, social media, you know, I think soccer fans in general, which are predominantly white, and I think just the - you know, the majority of America was very, very upset at that time.

What I was thinking at the time - so we've gone through, you know, the summer of 2014. We've gone through the Black Lives Matter protests. You know, going through 2015, that's all still happening. 2016's summer was just so tragic, you know, Alton Sterling and Philando Castile and, you know, the Dallas police officers shot - I think there was more police officers shot in Louisiana as well - and just, you know, kind of coming to a head. The WNBA players had staged protests during their season, actually, you know, refusing to talk about anything but. And so you kind of get to this moment in Colin Kaepernick where - you know, the first moment that I saw him speak on "SportsCenter" or whatever it was, it was like - it just was very simple to me. Like, this is clearly happening throughout the country. We've gone through Trayvon Martin. We've gone through Michael Brown. We've gone through, you know, Tamir Rice and Philando Castile and all of these - Sandra Bland - and all of these horrible tragedies.

And, I mean, of course, we're at this moment. And, of course, what he's saying is true. And it just really struck me. And he sort of put an action to the words that he was saying and the words that I had been reading for so long and the words, you know, of all of these Black Lives Matter protests. And it just was like, OK, this is an action that I can do, that I can help with.

GROSS: So I want to read something that you reprint in your memoir. And this is what U.S. Soccer said in an official statement. And you say, it might as well have been headed, dear Megan. So the statement was, (reading) representing your country is a privilege and honor for any player or coach that is associated with U.S. Soccer's national team. In front of national and often global audiences, the playing of our national anthem is an opportunity for our men's and women's national team players and coaches to reflect upon the liberties and freedom we all appreciate in the country. As part of the privilege to represent your country, we have an expectation that our players and coaches will stand and honor our flag while the national anthem is played. What was your reaction when you read that statement?

RAPINOE: I couldn't believe it. I think I was truly sort of dumbstruck. It really upset me. The nerve and the audacity to say what they did in that statement - it is an honor and a privilege that we all have in this country? I don't think so. I don't think we do all have that in this country. So it missed the entire point, clearly. And it was just cruel in a way. It was gaslighting, and it was manipulative, and it was cruel. But it also was very - I thought very intentionally meant to silence me.

GROSS: What are some of the repercussions you faced professionally?

RAPINOE: They're sort of gray repercussions, I'll say. You know, in - like, in terms of sponsorships, I didn't lose any sponsorships, which I think is great. Obviously, Nike's a big sponsor of mine. They have been very supportive. But I certainly didn't get any new sponsorships. And I certainly didn't get any new opportunities sort of in the short term. You know, from U.S. Soccer's perspective, from playing, I really didn't play again until the spring, I think, or even later into the next year.

GROSS: Were you taken out of the lineup?

RAPINOE: In a sense, yes. So this is where the gray part comes in. I - you know, I was - I had played in those two games, in the first two games that I had, you know, knelt. I think that was in October or so. We had a November camp. And I was coming off of an injury, so I wasn't really at my best. But I was clearly on the way back to my best. And, you know, being a player who had just - you know, we just won the World Cup. I was a big part of that team. And I think it was - all signs were leading to, I was going to be coming back and playing back to my best.

But I just needed time. And so that was sort of used as an excuse of, like - you know, I think the next camp, I was left off the roster. December, we didn't have a camp. January was no games, so I did come in and practice. I was left off the next roster and the next roster. So I think they were like, if you just sort of fade off into the distance, we'd be happy with that. You know, I never lost my contract. But, no, they did not really allow me back on the field until the rule was instituted that you had to stand for the national anthem during our games.

GROSS: U.S. Soccer did eventually lift the ban. When did they lift it?

RAPINOE: Just recently. As, you know, the tragic murder of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor, as the protests subsequently, you know, swept the nation, I think that they realized that that policy not only is now - is wrong now, but it always was, and it was the wrong policy. And they came out with a pretty strongly worded statement and rescinded it.

GROSS: And did Colin Kaepernick ever get in touch with you after you kneel?

RAPINOE: Yes. Yes. We - yeah. We're in touch with each other for sure.

GROSS: Megan Rapinoe, thank you so much for talking with us. And congratulations again on your engagement and also on the new book.

RAPINOE: Thank you so much for having me on.

BIANCULLI: Megan Rapinoe speaking to Terry Gross in 2020. The Olympic soccer champion and social activist has just been awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian honor.

Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new French film "Both Sides Of The Blade," starring Juliette Binoche and directed by Claire Denis. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BILL FRISELL'S "THE BIG ONE")

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. In the French melodrama "Both Sides Of The Blade," Juliette Binoche plays a Parisian radio show host whose life is disrupted by the return of a former lover. It's the latest movie from acclaimed filmmaker Claire Denis. The film won her the best director prize at this year's Berlin International Film Festival. It opens in theaters this week. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

JUSTIN CHANG, BYLINE: "Both Sides Of The Blade" might sound at first like a quintessentially French movie or perhaps even a parody of one. It stars Juliette Binoche and Vincent Lindon, two of France's best-known actors, as a couple who have a lot of sex and talk a lot about their emotions. Their scenes together have an erotic intimacy that we associate with French cinema, in part because it's relatively rare in American movies. Then a figure from the past returns and threatens their relationship. Voices are raised. Tables are turned. And nothing will ever be the same.

That might make "Both Sides Of The Blade" sound like standard soap opera material, especially coming from Claire Denis, the director of daringly elliptical art films like "Beau Travail" and "High Life." But nothing about the movie, which Denis and Christine Angot adapted from Angot's novel, feels trite or predictable. It's a jolt of a movie, full of hot-blooded sensuality one moment, but then awfully cool and studied the next, almost as if it were deconstructing itself as it went along, which, again, sounds very French, but never mind.

Binoche and Lindon give superb performances as Sara and Jean, who've lived together for about 10 years and still can't keep their hands off each other. They have an apartment in Paris where they've carved out what looks like a perfect life amid decidedly imperfect circumstances. Sara hosts a successful radio talk show, but work is less steady for Jean, who spent some time in prison for an undisclosed crime. He also has a tough relationship with Marcus, his teenage son from an earlier marriage, who lives with Jean's mother in the suburbs.

Then one day, Francois, played by Gregoire Colin, slips back into their lives. He used to be Jean's colleague and Sara's lover. It begins innocuously enough when Francois offers Jean a job at his sports talent agency. But Sara can't hide her anxiety or her excitement at the prospect of seeing Francois again, and when they finally meet, long-repressed memories and desires come surging back. Inevitably, Sara will succumb to those desires, but the movie, set to a haunting score by the English band Tindersticks, rings enormous tension from the buildup.

The title of "Both Sides Of The Blade" evokes the age-old question of whether a person can love two people at the same time. And Juliette Binoche, so good at revealing complex, contradictory emotions, shows us a woman torn between a partner she adores and an ex she can't forget. This is the latest collaboration between Binoche and Denis, and it'd make a great double bill with their recent rom-com "Let The Sunshine In," a much funnier story about a woman's emotional indecision.

Binoche is well matched here by Vincent Lindon, whose handsome, weathered face suggests a man who's already lost too much and can't bear the idea of also losing the woman he loves. Jean is quick to pick up on the warning signs and confronts Sara. I've seen a lot of heated arguments in movies, but few have been acted or shot with this much sustained intensity. Denis is a master of form, and she uses extreme close-ups and jagged edits to suggest that something has broken between these two, possibly for good.

But even as she pulls her characters close, Denis sometimes steps back and examines them from a more critical perspective. As a radio host, Sara interviews a lot of writers and artists, often about racial and political issues that she doesn't engage with much outside work. Jean's son is a Black biracial youth who's struggling to figure out his future, and there's an awkward but moving scene in which he and his father talk about race and discrimination. On top of all that, this is one of the few movies shot during COVID that acknowledges the reality of the pandemic, as we can see from the characters repeatedly putting on and taking off their face masks.

There's something a little ungainly about how Denis balances her character's romantic anguish with these bigger-picture concerns. But that messiness seems to be the point. Even when illicit desires intrude and relationships fall apart, real life doesn't just politely recede into the background. "Both Sides Of The Blade" wants us to see its characters rage, but it never loses sight of the larger world raging outside their windows. It's a different kind of melodrama - and a great one.

BIANCULLI: Justin Chang is the film critic for the LA Times. He reviewed the new French melodrama "Both Sides Of The Blade."

On Monday's show, a talk about the largest empire in human history, the British Empire, and the impact it had on its 700 million subjects in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and the Pacific. We talk with historian Caroline Elkins about her new book, "Legacy Of Violence: A History Of The British Empire." I hope you can join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSETTE EXPLOSION'S "A RECURRING DREAM")

BIANCULLI: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. For Terry Gross, I'm David Bianculli.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSETTE EXPLOSION'S "A RECURRING DREAM")

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