Other segments from the episode on February 2, 2024
Transcript
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Today we begin our countdown to the Oscars with our very own "Oppenheimer" "Barbie" double feature. Let's start with "Oppenheimer," which is nominated for 13 Academy Awards, including best picture, director, actor, supporting actor and actress, adapted screenplay, original score and more. The film is also nominated for a Grammy, which takes place this Sunday for best score or soundtrack.
"Oppenheimer" is about J. Robert Oppenheimer, the man known as the father of the atom bomb. He was a theoretical physicist and directed Los Alamos, the secret project in New Mexico where researchers created, designed and tested the first atomic bomb, which was intended to end World War II. By the time it was tested, Germany had surrendered but Japan had not. In 1945, the U.S. dropped atomic bombs on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That ended the war, but it's estimated that as many as 200,000 people were killed. After the war, Oppenheimer became an advocate of arms control and opposed military plans for massive strategic bombing with nuclear weapons, which he considered genocidal. He also opposed the creation of the even deadlier hydrogen bomb.
In 1954, during the height of the anti-communist era, Oppenheimer was accused of being a risk to national security because of his alleged ties to the Communist Party. He protested at a hearing which resulted in him being stripped of his security clearance. Nearly 70 years later, in December of 2022, Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm revoked that decision. Terry interviewed "Oppenheimer" writer and director Christopher Nolan last August. Nolan is also known for his World War II film "Dunkirk," as well as "Tenet," the "Batman" trilogy, "Inception," "Insomnia" and "Memento."
Let's start with a clip from "Oppenheimer" speaking with Leslie Groves, the general who headed the Manhattan Project, which Los Alamos was part of. Groves asks Oppenheimer about the possibility that the atom bomb test could set off a chain reaction that would set fire to the atmosphere and destroy Earth, a possibility he'd heard one of the top nuclear physicist Enrico Fermi refer to. Oppenheimer is played by Cillian Murphy and Groves by Matt Damon. Groves speaks first.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "OPPENHEIMER")
MATT DAMON: (As Leslie Groves) What did Fermi mean by atmospheric ignition?
CILLIAN MURPHY: (As J. Robert Oppenheimer) Well, he had a moment where it looked like the chain reaction from an atomic device might never stop setting fire to the atmosphere.
DAMON: (As Leslie Groves) And why's Fermi still taking side bets on it?
MURPHY: (As J. Robert Oppenheimer) Call it gallows humor.
DAMON: (As Leslie Groves) Are we saying there's a chance that when we push that button, we destroy the world?
MURPHY: (As J. Robert Oppenheimer) Nothing in our research for over three years supports that conclusion. Except it's the most remote possibility.
DAMON: (As Leslie Groves) How remote?
MURPHY: (As J. Robert Oppenheimer) Chances are near zero.
DAMON: (As Leslie Groves) Near zero.
MURPHY: (As J. Robert Oppenheimer) What do you want from theory alone?
DAMON: (As Leslie Groves) Zero would be nice.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS: OK. That's a scene from "Oppenheimer," and my guest is the writer and director of the film, Christopher Nolan.
Christopher Nolan, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you back on the show.
CHRISTOPHER NOLAN: Thank you.
GROSS: That's such a frightening idea. And I know that the scientists were really convinced that there wasn't going to be this atmospheric ignition where the whole atmosphere would catch on fire and destroy Earth. But you're not - I guess you never really know, based on theoretical physics, what's going to happen when you blow up an atom bomb. So what was it like for you to think about that as you were making the movie?
NOLAN: I think for me, that knowledge that - leading up to the Trinity test, the leading scientists led by Oppenheimer, they could not completely eliminate the possibility of this chain reaction. That was one of the things that really got me interested in Oppenheimer's story and making a film from it, because it's simply the most high-stakes, dramatic situation that you could conceive of. It beats anything in fiction. I'd actually put a reference to it in my previous film, "Tenet," in dialogue. I used it as analogy for the science fiction situation at the heart of that film. But we referred to that moment.
And then after finishing that film, it was actually one of the stars of "Tenet," Rob Pattinson, he gave me a book of Oppenheimer's speeches - post-World War II speeches in which you see him trying to reckon with, and you're reading about the great minds of the time trying to reckon with the consequences of this thing that they've unleashed on the world. But that initial notion, that fact that I learned of that they couldn't, using theory alone, completely eliminate the possibility of global destruction based on triggering the first atomic test, I just wanted to be in that room. I wanted to take the audience into that room for the moment where they would push that button.
GROSS: So much work went into making the first atom bomb, and so many theoretical physicists were involved, all the calculations, and then you have the reality of it exploding. So the bomb worked. All their work paid off. It was a success. And in the film, all the scientists are gathered and they're applauding. That's before it was actually used for real. Knowing what you know now, how did it feel to watch their enthusiasm, their applause, to film that?
NOLAN: It felt very exciting. I felt lost in the excitement of it. And that was really the idea. I mean, at the heart of the film, there's a pivot, and it's really the pivot between the successful Trinity test and then the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the actual use of the weapon. And so, for me, the focus of the film, it needed to be this build towards the most incredible excitement and tension around that test, whether or not they could pull off this extraordinary feat that they had been drawn into trying to accomplish, based on this desperate race against the Nazis, to be the first power to harness control or power of atomic weapons. And, you know, the Germans had split the atom. The Nazis had the best physicists or some of the best physicists in the world at their disposal, and they were trying as hard as they could to make the first atomic bomb. And so Oppenheimer and his fellow scientists, who were called upon by their country, they had no choice.
And there's this moment, of course, where they're pushing for years, spending billions of dollars. They've built this whole community out in the middle of nowhere devoted to this one thing of making this chain reaction happen, making this atomic blast work. And it all boils down to that moment of the Trinity test. And they pull it off, and there's such joy and excitement around that. And I wanted the audience to be caught up in that. I wanted to be caught up in that. But then, you know, you come to film the scenes where we're looking from Oppenheimer's point of view. We're experiencing the news of the bombings coming through, unbelievably awful and changed the world forever. Whether we like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world, and we always will.
GROSS: What's your approach to biopics? Like, what liberties to take and what to be faithful to?
NOLAN: Well, in a funny sort of way, my approach is to not even acknowledge biopic as a genre. In other words, if something works, like "Lawrence For Arabia," for example, you don't think of it as a biopic. You think of it as a great adventure story, even though obviously it's telling the story of somebody's life - or "Citizen Kane" or, you know, of these great films - I mean, obviously, there's fiction.
But for me, I had the benefit of this extraordinary book, "American Prometheus," that was written - you know, Martin Sherwin, who first started writing it, he spent 25 years researching Oppenheimer's story and speaking to everybody who knew him and, you know, all the rest. So by the time he and Kai Bird finished, they put the book out, it won the Pulitzer Prize, you know, I had this extraordinary sort of Bible to work from. And so for me, it was really a process of saying - OK, what's the exciting story that develops, the cinematic story that develops from a reading of it, from several readings of it? - and then started to develop a structure for how I might be able to put the audience into Oppenheimer's head.
GROSS: When you're not working, do you live in your head a lot? And does your head become a kind of dark place (laughter) where negative thoughts consume you?
NOLAN: (Laughter) No. I mean, I certainly live in my head a lot. It's how I work. You know, I think "Oppenheimer," of all the films I've worked on, it's the one that I actually find the most disturbing and the most under my skin. And I was quite glad to be finished making it, to be quite frank, and it's because I try to approach it from his point of view and try to find genuine positivity in his story, in his relationships, in the things that he was able to achieve and the ways in which he was able to defend himself. Otherwise, his friends would stand up for him and all the rest.
But there is no getting around the undeniable darkness of his situation, his story and how it has affected the world. And, you know, movies are a sort of collective dream. There's a sense in which "Oppenheimer" is a collective nightmare. And there's something about telling that and getting it out in the world that stops it being, you know, my own personal thing. That helps.
GROSS: Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christopher Nolan, and he wrote and directed the new film "Oppenheimer." He also made the films "Dunkirk," "Tenet," the Batman trilogy, "Inception," "Insomnia" and "Memento." We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF LUDWIG GORANSSON'S "CAN YOU HEAR THE MUSIC")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christopher Nolan. He wrote and directed the new film "Oppenheimer," about the man who was called the father of the atom bomb. He also made the films "Dunkirk," "Tenet," the Batman trilogy, "Inception," "Insomnia" and "Memento."
So I want to ask you about dreams. You know, you edit some of your films out of chronological sequence, and I think dreams are that way, too. Like, dreams often don't make any sense at all. You have to kind of look for the meaning within them and interpret them. But they don't make chronological sense, you just kind of hop from one scene to another that may or may not be related. Do you think that your dream life has influenced your editing life at all?
NOLAN: (Laughter).
GROSS: And one of your - I mean, "Inception" is literally about dreams. It's about, like, stealing dreams and implanting information in someone's mind through dreams, like, tapping into other people's dreams.
NOLAN: Well, it's also about what you just described, it's about the time scale of dreams. You know, "Inception" is very much about how you can have a much longer - a feeling of a much longer period of your life in a very short space of time in a dream. So, yeah, that film in particular really drilled down on my relationship with my dream life and the relationship between dreams and reality. But I think cinema in general for me is very influenced by its relationship with dreams. There is a very real sense in which movies are sort of shared dream worlds or shared kind of dream consciousness. They have an interesting effect on the brain.
You know, when you see a film, it's often quite - it's quite interesting to talk to people who've seen a film about the time span of the film they saw, not the literal time they were sitting there in the cinema, but what time slice it represents of the characters' lives, for example. And that's a very complicated aspect of how movies get into our brains and how we look at them and how we sort of judge them.
GROSS: So in "Inception," your movie about dreams, Leonardo DiCaprio says, we never remember the beginning of a dream. Is that true? I mean, it's a question I've never asked myself.
NOLAN: (Laughter).
GROSS: I don't know if I remember the beginning of my dreams because I'm lucky if I remember my dreams, and when I do, it's usually I remember the mood. I remember a few frames of the dream.
NOLAN: (Laughter).
GROSS: I don't really remember the chronology very well and I have no idea where it started. So what made you think of that?
NOLAN: I wrote "Inception," you know, very much from my own impression of the way I dream and sort of dream rules, and I sort of trusted that there'd be enough people in the audience that roughly corresponded with the way that I dream that it wouldn't be, you know, overly controversial. I remember many years ago seeing a film, I think it was - it must be - I think it was George Burns, I think it was "Oh, God!" There's a moment where somebody says, well, you know - they say, am I dreaming? And they say, well, is it in color, you know? They say, yeah, and it's like, OK, well, you know it's not a dream because you only dream in black-and-white. And I remember as a kid thinking, well, I don't dream in black-and-white. That's weird.
But this is the danger. You know, when you write about memory - you know, when I was doing "Memento," for example - you know, it is a very personal thing and everybody's brain is a little different. The way we process the world is a little different. I know that I, as an audience member, I respond to a consistent rule set, if you like. So as long as the film is telling me up front that, OK, this is how we see the world, this is the world of the film you're watching, as long as they're sort of true to that in the telling of the story, then I'm OK with it.
GROSS: You know, that whole question of, like, oh, we only dream in black-and-white, people used to ask each other that - do you dream in black-and-white or in color? And do you think that was because our only understanding in that time of what imagery looked like in representation outside of paintings was film and TV, which were in black-and-white?
NOLAN: I think that's...
GROSS: And photographs.
NOLAN: Yeah. No, I think you've hit the nail on the head, actually. And I think it relates to the earlier answer of the relationship between, you know, our view of dreams and our view of motion pictures.
GROSS: Yeah.
NOLAN: The way in which you remember movies is very similar to the way in which you remember dreams. And every now and again, you see a film that taps that in a way. You know, I think "Memento," for a lot of people, sort of bled off the page, if you like, or off the strip of film running through the projector and built a bigger world in people's minds. I think the films of David Lynch have always done that incredibly well over the years. They have a dream logic that quite often use - I remember seeing "Lost Highway," for example, and not really understanding the film at all. And then a couple of weeks later, remembering the film the way I would remember one of my own dreams, and that suddenly felt like a sort of remarkable feat that Lynch had achieved in terms of mapping a dream into the space of a motion picture, and vice versa.
GROSS: Seen on an IMAX, and a lot of people will not have the opportunity of seeing it that way. But I think some people are puzzled, like, why shoot a movie that's largely people talking to each other and people thinking and people being anguished over the possibilities of the bomb? Why shoot that in IMAX, which is usually reserved for films that have incredible landscapes or that have incredible, fantastical cinematography?
NOLAN: Well, I've used IMAX for years, and going into "Oppenheimer," talking to Hoyte, my DP, we knew that it would give us, with its high resolution, its sort of extraordinary analog color, sharpness, all of these things, the big screens that you projected on, we knew it would give us the landscapes of New Mexico, that it would give us the Trinity test, which we felt had to be a showstopper. But we actually got really excited about the idea of the human face, you know, how can it help us jump into Oppenheimer's head? The story is told subjectively. I even wrote the script in the first person. You know, I this, I that. We were looking for the visual equivalent of that. And so taking those high resolution IMAX cameras and, you know, really just trying to be there for the intimate moments of the story in a way that we felt we hadn't really seen people do before with that format, that was, you know, a source of particular excitement for us.
GROSS: Does it pain you to think that probably a lot of people will end up watching "Oppenheimer" on their phones or on little tablets?
NOLAN: No, not at all. I actually, you know, I'm one of the first generations of filmmakers who grew up with home video. So, you know, my family got its first VHS player when I was about 11 years old. And so I've sort of come of age in a world of film where more people are always going to see your film in the home, that's always been the case. But the thing about the way film distribution works is if you make a film for the biggest possible screen and you put it out there in the biggest possible way, firstly, the technical quality of the image carries through to all the subsequent versions of the film that you then master.
GROSS: I'm interested in your relationship to technology. I mean, you're using state-of-the-art technology, you know, 70 millimeter for IMAX. At the same time, I've read that you don't have real, like, tech cellphone. I think you have, like, a flip phone, maybe. And I think there's other, like, tech things like email, maybe, that you don't use. And so it strikes me as kind of strange that you'd use such, like, state-of-the-art, you know, cinematography, but, you know, reject things like a cellphone. At the same time, I know that there's - like, CGI. You don't like to use CGI 'cause it looks fake to you. So, like, where do you draw the line with technology?
NOLAN: Technology is whatever the tools are available to us. So I shoot my films on celluloid film, preferably IMAX celluloid film, because it's the best analogy for the way the eye sees the world, so it gives you the highest possible quality. For me, it's about using the best tool for the job. So, for example, you know, sometimes I get asked whether I still, you know, edit on film. And I've never edited on a film. I've always edited it on the computer 'cause it's the only practical way to do it. But then when we finish the creative process of editing, we cut the film up, we cut the negative up, we glue it together, we print from there, and that's the finishing process. So for me, you know, the approach to technology is always about how can it help you? How can it help you do something better?
And I've always liked not having a smartphone in my pocket because it just sort of means when you get those pockets of time, you know, when you turn up early for a meeting, you're waiting for somebody or whatever, you spend a bit more time thinking and just, you know, I suppose using your imagination, in a way. And for me, with the amount of work that I try to do and figuring out what the next project is or advancing different things in my mind, having those pockets of time is actually pretty valuable. I've also got a terribly addictive personality, and I think if I had a smartphone, I'd spend the whole time, you know, just on it and, you know, absorbed in it the way I see a lot of people absorbed in it. So it's something I never started doing. And now it feels a bit of a superpower that I don't have one. So I'm going to try and maintain my allegiance to the dumb phone or the flip phone.
GROSS: Thank you so much for coming back to our show.
NOLAN: Sure. Thank you for having me.
MOSLEY: Christopher Nolan wrote and directed the film "Oppenheimer," which is nominated for 13 Oscars and a Grammy for the score. The Grammys take place on Sunday. After we take a short break, my interview with Mark Ronson, the co-executive producer of the "Barbie" score and soundtrack. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF LUDWIG GORANSSON'S "OPPENHEIMER")
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. If you've seen the most popular movie of last year, there's no denying it. You know this tune.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I'M JUST KEN")
RYAN GOSLING: (As Ken, singing) 'Cause I'm just Ken. Anywhere else, I'd be a 10. Is it my destiny to live and die a life of blond fragility?
MOSLEY: The song "I'm Just Ken" from the movie "Barbie" is up this year for a Grammy Award and an Oscar. It's written by Mark Ronson, who is the co-executive producer of the score and soundtrack for the fantasy-comedy film, which follows Ken and Barbie as they leave Barbie Land and enter the real world. It was directed by Greta Gerwig and co-written by Gerwig and Noah Baumbach. "Barbie" is nominated for eight Academy Awards, including best picture, supporting actor and actress, adapted screenplay, production design, costume design and twice for original songs "I'm Just Ken" and "What Was I Made For?" "Barbie" is also nominated for 11 Grammys, including for record of the year and song of the year, as well as best song and best score soundtrack.
Mark Ronson, who is an Oscar-winning music producer, was tapped by Greta Gerwig to produce the soundtrack. He's known for his work as a DJ and record producer and songwriter, creating party hits, pop songs and soulful arrangements for stars like Amy Winehouse, Lady Gaga, Adele and Bruno Mars. But believe it or not, even with all of his credentials, Ronson lost a lot of sleep over Gerwig's request. Even before Barbie came out, critics were forecasting that it was destined to be one of the highest-grossing films to date. It was also the first time Ronson had created a soundtrack of this scope and size. What followed was a year of conceptualizing, producing, and composing songs for the album with artists like Nicki Minaj, Sam Smith, Billie Eilish, Dua Lipa and PinkPantheress. Ronson is the co-executive producer of "Barbie The Album" and the score, which he co-wrote and produced with Andrew Wyatt. I spoke with him in September.
One of the first songs you worked on for this soundtrack is "I'm Just Ken," sung by Ryan Gosling, who plays Ken. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I'M JUST KEN")
GOSLING: (As Ken, singing) Doesn't seem to matter what I do. I'm always No. 2. No one knows how hard I tried. Oh, I have feelings that I can't explain driving me insane. All my life, been so polite. But I'll sleep alone tonight 'cause I'm just Ken. Anywhere else, I'd be a 10. Is it my destiny to live and die a life of blond fragility? I'm just Ken.
MOSLEY: That was "I'm Just Ken" from the "Barbie" movie soundtrack. Mark, you wrote these lyrics, but you're not usually a lyrics guy, right?
MARK RONSON: I'm not. You know, when you're working with different artists as a producer, your job is always just to fill any hole that's needed. But I work with a lot of brilliant lyricists - people like Amy Winehouse, obviously, Adele and Lady Gaga. And sometimes you're just there to provide the music, to bounce ideas, to be an editor, just to do the arrangements sometimes. But I love coming up with a lyric or helping someone when they're, like, a little blocked to fill a hole here and there. But that's not really the thing that I start with. But I was so inspired by this script and Greta and her vision. I just - I love the whole message of it. I love the whole idea of it. Obviously, Barbie's story is so wonderful. And then Ken's story that's going on on the side about this guy - like, and maybe it was because I knew Ryan Gosling was playing it, so I had the advantage of picturing him saying every line as I'm reading this script. But he just got his hooks in me, that character, you know? And he's dopey, but you root for him. And, you know, all he wants is just for this person to feel the same way about him that he feels about her, and it's never going to happen.
So I just - I had this line. I think I was walking to the studio one day, my studio in Manhattan. And I just - I'm just Ken. Anywhere else, I'd be a 10. It just came to me, and I was like, that kind of sounds like something to start a chorus from, you know? I wasn't even thinking at that point, I'm going to write this song by myself or write the lyrics. And I got to the piano, and I just was working. I found the chords and a melody that I thought was good. And all you can ever tell is, is it making you excited when you're in the studio, you know? And I sent off the demo to Greta, and she just wrote back so enthusiastically.
MOSLEY: I agree with you about Ken's storyline in particular. It was a surprise for me. Of course, we know that Ken would be a part of the movie. But the richness and the layering of his character - and this song in particular adds another dimension to it. When I was in the movie theater watching it and the line blonde fragility came up, it was like, oh, wait. These lyrics are actually kind of deep. And you came up with that lyric as well.
RONSON: Yeah. That's all I had when I was writing the chorus. It was, I'm just Ken. Anywhere else, I'd be a 10. And I kind of mumbled the rest and - (vocalizing). And all my - I think it was - all my blonde fragility was the original lyric. But I kind of mumbled that lyric as well because it was, like, maybe taking a bit too much license to - like, I had just met Greta and Noah. I didn't want them to think, like, I'm trying to be the - provide the funny or the thing. Like, you guys are the genius writers. Like, let me just give you a song. But she was like, are you mumbling? Is there something about blonde fragility? And, you know, of course it was a nod to "White Fragility," the book, like, everything. And I - but I just - it just felt right. And then we wrote the rest of the chorus, Andrew and I, together.
MOSLEY: Gosling definitely brought your lyrics to life. And I read that when you were in the studio with Bradley Cooper for the song "Shallow" for "A Star Is Born," you warmed him up to sing with pop tunes. What did you do with Ryan Gosling in the studio?
RONSON: You know, it's awkward being with anyone in the studio for the very first time because it's a vulnerable place. And, you know, you're about to go on this - embark on this thing, and you're feeling each other out. And as a producer, you're seeing what somebody's, you know, vocal range is and their limits. And you always want to push them but then not push too far because if you're pushing someone to a place, to a range they don't have, then you can shatter their confidence. And then the whole session is, like, a wash.
So - and then add to the fact that Ryan is, you know, a giant movie star, and he's coming in here on his, like, one hour off from shooting this giant film. And he came into the studio, and we just talked for a little while. And 15 minutes in, we're like, OK, should we try this? And in the beginning, because Andrew sung on the demo and he has such an amazing range, I just thought, OK, let me make this a little bit easier for Ryan. We're going to lower it a key or two and just start there. And then as Ryan just started to get warmed up, I was like, OK, we could kind of bump this up another key. Oh, and now we can bump it up, and now we're in the original key, and he's just giving this wonderful vocal performance.
And also, because he's just such an incredible actor, he's imbuing all these words with even a different context and emotion than what Andrew and I had even been able to add to it, because he is Ken. And he was almost acting out the song as he was singing in a way that was like, oh - I don't know if that's true, but it felt like he was inhabiting the song, which was really wonderful. And I could hear it in what was coming back through the speaker.
MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Grammy Award-winning music producer Mark Ronson. He's the executive producer of the soundtrack for "Barbie The Album." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "OOH WEE")
NATE DOGG: (Singing) Ooh, wee. Ooh, wee. La, la, la, la. La, la, la, la, la, la. Ooh, wee. Ooh, wee. La, la, la, la. La, la, la, la, la, la. Ooh, wee. Ooh, wee. La, la, la, la. La, la, la, la, la, la.
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and today we're talking to Grammy Award-winning music producer Mark Ronson. His latest work is as executive producer of the soundtrack for "Barbie," the summer hit directed by Greta Gerwig and written by Gerwig and Noah Baumbach. Ronson also composed the film score with Andrew Wyatt.
OK, so when Greta Gerwig contacted you, you were basically like, I'm a huge fan; of course, I'm on board, which kind of made me surprised when I read that it wasn't exactly a slam dunk that you'd get every artist you wanted for this soundtrack. You had to actually do some maneuvering, calling up friends and friends of friends.
RONSON: I think a lot of people definitely just came to the table on the basis of Greta and the films that she's made before. And, you know, certainly in the case of Billie Eilish and PinkPantheress, that was the case. Some people came because Barbie was important to them and figured in their lives, and that was people like Karol G. Then what we had to do was show everybody a piece of the film. And what we did was, you know, because this was still early on, Greta was still editing the film, we would show maybe 20 minutes of the film, just different scenes, enough so people could get the sense of the film and the tone and the arc.
And then Greta and I had spent time before deciding where we would love a Sam Smith song to go, where we would love a PinkPantheress song to go, and get to show them specifically the scene. And that's what's so great about a lot of the songs that people wrote, because they seem so bespoke - the way that Charlie wrote "Speed Drive" for, you know, a chase scene/through Mattel offices/car chase. I think that what's great is that sometimes you listen to it and you're like, what came first, the songs or the film? It has this nice, interwoven thing. Every artist took what they saw, took the conversation with Greta, and just turned it into - you know, everyone ran with it and did something different.
MOSLEY: The song "What Was I Made For?", sung by Billie Eilish, I think director Greta Gerwig calls it the glittery, pink heart at the center of the film. It really does get to the heart of Barbie's predicament, which is basically what happens when the world turns against you. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WHAT WAS I MADE FOR?")
BILLIE EILISH: (Singing) I used to float, now I just fall down. I used to know, but I'm not sure now what I was made for. What was I made for? Taking a drive, I was an ideal - looked so alive, turns out I'm not real, just something you paid for. What was I made for? 'Cause I don't know how to feel, but I want to try. I don't know how to feel.
MOSLEY: That was "What Was I Made For?", written by Billie and Finneas Eilish. And it is such an important storytelling device in this movie, Mark. What was your reaction when you first heard it?
RONSON: Greta and I, I think we got it at the same time, like, a text thread or something. I think we just immediately called each other. We're like, what is - this song is just insane. Like, what is - I was basically like, what is wrong with these kids? Why are they so good? They're so young, like, you know, like...
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
RONSON: You know, especially when it got to that lyric, like, it's not what he's made for, like, about, like, the way that it sort of applies to the film and could be - apply to many things like it, you know? And so Andrew and I had been working on a lot of pieces for the score, for the more emotional moments. And some of them, oddly enough, weren't really that dissimilar to what Billie and Finneas' song was. So there were moments when we were like, wow, let's take this song and make their song this thread that we weave through the film. And so we had been trying to come up with something for a while, some chords and some score. And we were like, let's just find a way to combine these two ideas and concepts, that Billie and Finneas song mixed with what we had already been doing.
MOSLEY: Can you briefly describe the differences between writing a song and creating a musical score? Because this was part of this project that was different and new for you.
RONSON: So different. And, you know, a lot of my instincts as a songwriter, when you're making a pop song, you're constantly thinking of hooks and melodies and ear candy and secondary hooks and tertiary hooks and stuff like that. And really, scores, sometimes, of course you want to have memorable melodies and things, but you really also need to get out the way. You can't be a distraction. You're there to support the emotional undertow of the film at that moment, especially when there's dialogue or an important scene going on. And, you know, I love film scores so much, like, everything from the obvious John Williams and John Barry and Danny Elfman to, you know, the '80s scores like Dave Grusin and stuff like that. Like, I love those soundtracks. I've always collected them. But we'd never done anything like that.
MOSLEY: I want to play a piece from the score. It's called "Mattel," which played every time there was a scene with executives at Mattel. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF MARK RONSON AND ANDREW WYATT'S "MATTEL")
MOSLEY: Man, I am a sucker for a good score. That was the song "Mattel" from "Barbie The Score." Mark, for those who haven't seen the movie, all of the Mattel executives are men, and it feels apt that the music harkens kind of to those green little Army men that boys used to play with. It's very military in its sound. What was the process for finding that kind of layering that strengthens the storyline without maybe being too on the nose with it?
RONSON: Yeah. I think we started off, as you would say, a little bit on the nose. And we had almost scored "Mattel" on this more, like, Death Star, "Star Wars," just the more obvious way that it would be to score sort of ominous. And then Noah had such a great idea, and he was, like can you give them sort of a little bit more of like this false nobility, but they're still kind of bumbling idiots? And so we thought of turning the string motif from the Dua Lipa song, which is a motif that comes back in - you know, throughout the movie. The strings that go, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Like, wow, what if we put that on this marching band, but it sounds a bit more like a high school marching band? Or, you know, we're obviously always so - college university marching bands. Like, I think it's Grambling State and all the ones and, like, Beyonce uses...
MOSLEY: Oh, yeah. Those are...
RONSON: ...That stuff...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
RONSON: ...And "Lose Yourself."
MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah.
RONSON: And it's so impactful. And, you know, just me, 'cause having my background as a hip-hop DJ, you know, those kind of sounds and stuff, I'm always thinking, OK, we're doing a score, but I can't help it. Those influences are going to creep in.
MOSLEY: Before this opportunity, was it an aspiration for you to score a film?
RONSON: I'm sure it was. You know, I don't think it was something that I would have ever put my hand up and say, like, I'd like to score "Barbie," you know? I think the way that it unfolded was so lucky. Listen, I mean, this is one of - now one of the biggest films of all time. I don't know if anybody at the very top of this thing would have been like, yeah, let's just risk it all on some guys that have never scored a film before. I think that we sort of proved ourselves probably along the way enough, but I don't know if we'll score another film because we were so spoiled. I mean, that's a crazy thing to say, but we were so inspired on this. Let's just say that.
MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, when I'm hearing you, I'm also hearing something else. Like, it feels so good and exhilarating and maybe, like, life-affirming to be kind of new at something again, like, to use the skills you already have to, like, then do something even bigger and more expansive with other parts that, like, you're contributing your part to.
RONSON: Oh, that's the best. I love that. Like, if I ever felt like I was going to stop learning, that's the other thing. Like, you know, during the film, even as crazy as our schedule was, I started taking piano lessons again. I started taking music theory lessons again. I was like, I want to be able to know exactly what the orchestra notation is to these things. I don't want to just be, you know, kind of coasting by on my ear, like, so - yes. And now I'm really going to - you know, now I'm actually really going deep into, like, back to school. But I love that. I love being - A, the excitement of learning something new, B, the humbling of it. It's just - it's the best.
MOSLEY: Mark Ronson, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us.
RONSON: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much.
MOSLEY: Mark Ronson is the executive producer of "Barbie The Album," which he wrote and produced with Andrew Wyatt. Coming up, a review about the new FX series "Feud," about Truman Capote and the socialite women he both befriended and betrayed. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. In 2017, the FX network presented the first edition of Ryan Murphy's "Feud," an anthology series dramatizing infamous real-life conflicts. The first edition was about the intense rivalry between Hollywood stars Bette Davis and Joan Crawford. Now, seven years later, the second installment of "Feud" has finally arrived. It's called "Capote Vs. The Swans," and it's an eight-part drama about Truman Capote and the high-society women he socialized with and sometimes cruelly wrote about. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.
DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: FX is promoting "Feud: Capote Vs. The Swans" as the original "Real Housewives," but it's a lot deeper than that and infinitely more watchable. Based on the book "Capote's Women" by Laurence Leamer, this eight-part series tells of Truman Capote's friendships with and betrayals of New York's most prominent society women - The Ladies Who Lunch. Jon Robert Baitz (ph) who created the ABC series "Brothers & Sisters," developed and wrote this edition of "Feud" for television, and Gus Van Sant directed most episodes, with others directed by Jennifer Lynch and Max Winkler.
However, it's the names in front of the camera, not behind, who demand most of the attention here. Tom Hollander from the most recent season of "The White Lotus" plays Capote and captures him so that Capote is a character, not a caricature. And the women playing the Swans all get their turns to shine in a cast list that's almost laughably talented and lengthy. Naomi Watts plays Babe Paley, the wife of CBS chairman Bill Paley. Calista Flockhart plays Lee Radziwill, the sister of Jackie Kennedy. Other socialites are played rivetingly well by Diane Lane, Chloe Sevigny, Demi Moore and Molly Ringwald. Treat Williams, who died last year, is featured in his final role as Bill Paley. Even Jessica Lange, who starred as Joan Crawford in the previous "Feud" series and helped jumpstart Ryan Murphy's TV empire by starring in the first few outings of his earliest anthology series, "American Horror Story" is here. She makes a few guest appearances playing Truman's late mother, and she's haunting in more ways than one.
"Feud: Capote Vs. The Swans" jumps around in time, showing the characters before and after Esquire magazine published a chapter of Capote's in-progress book in 1975. It was a thinly veiled expose of the preening, privileged women he called The Swans, and it hurt them deeply. But drama and pain were not new to most of these women. In the scene where we first meet Naomi Watts as Babe Paley, she's venting to her best friend Truman, played by Tom Hollander, about her husband's recently discovered philandering.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FEUD")
TOM HOLLANDER: (As Truman Capote) What is it? What did he do?
NAOMI WATTS: (As Babe Paley) I told him I was coming, I gave him just enough warning. I found out Bill was still having his grotesque little affair with Happy Rockefeller.
HOLLANDER: (As Truman Capote) He was still?
WATTS: (As Babe Paley) Now. In our home.
HOLLANDER: (As Truman Capote) Go back. We're talking the governor's wildebeest wife here? That was still going on? I thought that was a one-time offence.
WATTS: (As Babe Paley) So did I.
BIANCULLI: The first "Feud" miniseries veered at times into camp, but "Capote Vs. The Swans" takes its story more seriously. It's got the loving details of a "Downton Abbey" or an "Upstairs, Downstairs" - lots of lingering shots of the food and the fashion and the jewels. But this drama is almost exclusively upstairs, and Baitz and Van Sant, in particular, frame things beautifully. Capote's famous black and white masquerade ball in 1966 is the subject of the entire third episode, and it's shot almost completely in black and white. That's because the Maysles brothers were filming a documentary about Capote that same year, which allows "Feud" to adopt that perspective to interview some of the Swans about their literary acquaintance. Here's Calista Flockhart in a fabulous solo scene, as Lee Radziwill getting made up for her appearance at the Black and White Ball.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FEUD")
CALISTA FLOCKHART: (As Lee Radziwill) We have a man, a celebrated little man, trying to outdo himself in a ballet called "Dance Of The Seven Trumans," wherein he spins himself into butter for having made so many declarations to so many friends - best friends. (Impersonating Truman Capote) Oh, you're my best friend in the world. Of course. Of course, you're the guest of honor, Babe. I mean Slim. I mean Lee. I mean etc.
BIANCULLI: And here in another wonderful scene is Demi Moore is Ann Woodward. She's been slandered by Truman and crashes his masquerade ball but is thrown out by the author himself. As she's escorted away, she confronts him memorably.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FEUD")
DEMI MOORE: (As Ann Woodward) What you're doing to us is so low. So poisonous. One day you will know what this poison tastes like. And remember, the only unforgivable sin is deliberate cruelty. You wrote that, didn't you? Well, this is that. This is that.
HOLLANDER: (As Truman Capote) Well, one did write that. Least we know she was paying attention.
BIANCULLI: "Capote Vs. The Swans" deserves our attention, too. It's a good drama, a compelling story with a powerhouse cast and in this new installment of "Feud," they all do some very powerful work.
MOSLEY: David Bianculli is professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey. He reviewed FX's "Feud: Capote Vs. The Swans." On Monday's show, award-winning journalist Michele Norris joins us to talk about her new book, "Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race And Identity." In it, she shares conversations she's collected over the last 14 years for more than 500,000 entries, people from around the world who shared with her their most honest, intimate and revealing thoughts about race and identity. I hope you can join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MOSLEY: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Diana Martinez. For Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. In 2017, the FX network presented the first edition of Ryan Murphy's "Feud," an anthology series dramatizing infamous real-life conflicts. The first edition was about the intense rivalry between Hollywood stars Bette Davis and Joan Crawford. Now, seven years later, the second installment of "Feud" has finally arrived. It's called "Capote Vs. The Swans," and it's an eight-part drama about Truman Capote and the high-society women he socialized with and sometimes cruelly wrote about. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.
DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: FX is promoting "Feud: Capote Vs. The Swans" as the original "Real Housewives," but it's a lot deeper than that and infinitely more watchable. Based on the book "Capote's Women" by Laurence Leamer, this eight-part series tells of Truman Capote's friendships with and betrayals of New York's most prominent society women - The Ladies Who Lunch. Jon Robert Baitz (ph) who created the ABC series "Brothers & Sisters," developed and wrote this edition of "Feud" for television, and Gus Van Sant directed most episodes, with others directed by Jennifer Lynch and Max Winkler.
However, it's the names in front of the camera, not behind, who demand most of the attention here. Tom Hollander from the most recent season of "The White Lotus" plays Capote and captures him so that Capote is a character, not a caricature. And the women playing the Swans all get their turns to shine in a cast list that's almost laughably talented and lengthy. Naomi Watts plays Babe Paley, the wife of CBS chairman Bill Paley. Calista Flockhart plays Lee Radziwill, the sister of Jackie Kennedy. Other socialites are played rivetingly well by Diane Lane, Chloe Sevigny, Demi Moore and Molly Ringwald. Treat Williams, who died last year, is featured in his final role as Bill Paley. Even Jessica Lange, who starred as Joan Crawford in the previous "Feud" series and helped jumpstart Ryan Murphy's TV empire by starring in the first few outings of his earliest anthology series, "American Horror Story" is here. She makes a few guest appearances playing Truman's late mother, and she's haunting in more ways than one.
"Feud: Capote Vs. The Swans" jumps around in time, showing the characters before and after Esquire magazine published a chapter of Capote's in-progress book in 1975. It was a thinly veiled expose of the preening, privileged women he called The Swans, and it hurt them deeply. But drama and pain were not new to most of these women. In the scene where we first meet Naomi Watts as Babe Paley, she's venting to her best friend Truman, played by Tom Hollander, about her husband's recently discovered philandering.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FEUD")
TOM HOLLANDER: (As Truman Capote) What is it? What did he do?
NAOMI WATTS: (As Babe Paley) I told him I was coming, I gave him just enough warning. I found out Bill was still having his grotesque little affair with Happy Rockefeller.
HOLLANDER: (As Truman Capote) He was still?
WATTS: (As Babe Paley) Now. In our home.
HOLLANDER: (As Truman Capote) Go back. We're talking the governor's wildebeest wife here? That was still going on? I thought that was a one-time offence.
WATTS: (As Babe Paley) So did I.
BIANCULLI: The first "Feud" miniseries veered at times into camp, but "Capote Vs. The Swans" takes its story more seriously. It's got the loving details of a "Downton Abbey" or an "Upstairs, Downstairs" - lots of lingering shots of the food and the fashion and the jewels. But this drama is almost exclusively upstairs, and Baitz and Van Sant, in particular, frame things beautifully. Capote's famous black and white masquerade ball in 1966 is the subject of the entire third episode, and it's shot almost completely in black and white. That's because the Maysles brothers were filming a documentary about Capote that same year, which allows "Feud" to adopt that perspective to interview some of the Swans about their literary acquaintance. Here's Calista Flockhart in a fabulous solo scene, as Lee Radziwill getting made up for her appearance at the Black and White Ball.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FEUD")
CALISTA FLOCKHART: (As Lee Radziwill) We have a man, a celebrated little man, trying to outdo himself in a ballet called "Dance Of The Seven Trumans," wherein he spins himself into butter for having made so many declarations to so many friends - best friends. (Impersonating Truman Capote) Oh, you're my best friend in the world. Of course. Of course, you're the guest of honor, Babe. I mean Slim. I mean Lee. I mean etc.
BIANCULLI: And here in another wonderful scene is Demi Moore is Ann Woodward. She's been slandered by Truman and crashes his masquerade ball but is thrown out by the author himself. As she's escorted away, she confronts him memorably.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FEUD")
DEMI MOORE: (As Ann Woodward) What you're doing to us is so low. So poisonous. One day you will know what this poison tastes like. And remember, the only unforgivable sin is deliberate cruelty. You wrote that, didn't you? Well, this is that. This is that.
HOLLANDER: (As Truman Capote) Well, one did write that. Least we know she was paying attention.
BIANCULLI: "Capote Vs. The Swans" deserves our attention, too. It's a good drama, a compelling story with a powerhouse cast and in this new installment of "Feud," they all do some very powerful work.
MOSLEY: David Bianculli is professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey. He reviewed FX's "Feud: Capote Vs. The Swans." On Monday's show, award-winning journalist Michele Norris joins us to talk about her new book, "Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race And Identity." In it, she shares conversations she's collected over the last 14 years for more than 500,000 entries, people from around the world who shared with her their most honest, intimate and revealing thoughts about race and identity. I hope you can join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MOSLEY: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Diana Martinez. For Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
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