'Barbie' music producer Mark Ronson opens up about the film's 'bespoke' sound

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. If you've seen the most popular movie of the year this summer, there's no denying it. You know this tune.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PINK")

LIZZO: (Singing) When I wake up in my own pink world, I get up out of bed and wave to my homegirls. Hey, Barbie. Hey. She's so cool all dolled up, just playing chess by the pool.

MOSLEY: It's from the fantasy comedy film "Barbie," which follows Ken and Barbie as they leave Barbieland and enter the real world. The film was directed by Greta Gerwig and co-written by Gerwig and Noah Baumbach. Gerwig tapped Grammy- and Oscar-winning music producer Mark Ronson to produce the soundtrack. He's known for his party hits, pop songs and soulful arrangements, producing for stars like Amy Winehouse, Lady Gaga, Adele and Bruno Mars. But believe it or not, even with all of his credentials, Ronson lost a lot of sleep over Gerwig's request. Even before "Barbie" came out, critics were forecasting that it was destined to be one of the highest-grossing films to date. It was also the first time Ronson had created a soundtrack of this scope and size.

What followed was a year of conceptualizing, producing and composing songs for the film with artists like Nicki Minaj, Sam Smith, Billie Eilish, Dua Lipa and PinkPantheress. Mark Ronson is an English American DJ, record producer, songwriter and multi-instrumentalist. He's won seven Grammy awards for various works, including Amy Winehouse's "Back To Black" and "Uptown Funk" with Bruno Mars. His song "Shallow" for the movie "A Star Is Born" won an Oscar and a Golden Globe Award for Best Original Song as well as a Grammy. Ronson is the executive producer of "Barbie: The Album," which he wrote and produced along with music producer Andrew Wyatt. Together, they composed the "Barbie" film score. Mark Ronson, welcome back to FRESH AIR.

MARK RONSON: Hi there.

MOSLEY: One of the first songs you worked on for this soundtrack is "I'm Just Ken," sung by Ryan Gosling, who plays Ken. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I'M JUST KEN")

RYAN GOSLING: (As Ken, singing) Doesn't seem to matter what I do. I'm always No. 2. No one knows how hard I tried. Oh. I have feelings that I can't explain driving me insane. All my life, been so polite. But I'll sleep alone tonight 'cause I'm just Ken. Anywhere else, I'd be a 10. Is it my destiny to live and die a life of blonde fragility? I'm just Ken.

MOSLEY: That was "I'm Just Ken" from the "Barbie" movie soundtrack. Mark, you wrote these lyrics, but you're not usually a lyrics guy, right?

RONSON: I'm not. You know, when you're working with different artists as a producer, your job is always just to fill any hole that's needed. But I work with a lot of brilliant lyricists - people like Amy Winehouse, obviously, Adele and Lady Gaga. And sometimes you're just there to provide the music, to bounce ideas, to be an editor, just to do the arrangements sometimes. But I love coming up with a lyric or helping someone when they're, like, a little blocked to fill a hole here and there. But that's not really the thing that I start with. But I was so inspired by this script and Greta and her vision. I just - I love the whole message of it. I love the whole idea of it. Obviously, Barbie's story is so wonderful. And then Ken's story that's going on on the side about this guy - like, and maybe it was because I knew Ryan Gosling was playing it, so I had the advantage of picturing him saying every line as I'm reading this script. But he just got his hooks in me, that character, you know? And he's dopey, but you root for him. And, you know, all he wants is just for this person to feel the same way about him that he feels about her, and it's never going to happen.

So I just - I had this line. I think I was walking to the studio one day, my studio in Manhattan. And I just - I'm just Ken. Anywhere else, I'd be a 10. It just came to me, and I was like, that kind of sounds like something to start a chorus from, you know? I wasn't even thinking at that point, I'm going to write this song by myself or write the lyrics. And I got to the piano, and I just was working. I found the chords and a melody that I thought was good. And all you can ever tell is, is it making you excited when you're in the studio, you know? And I sent off the demo to Greta, and she just wrote back so enthusiastically.

MOSLEY: I agree with you about Ken's storyline in particular. It was a surprise for me. Of course, we know that Ken would be a part of the movie. But the richness and the layering of his character - and this song in particular adds another dimension to it. When I was in the movie theater watching it and the line blonde fragility came up, it was like, oh, wait. These lyrics are actually kind of deep. And you came up with that lyric as well.

RONSON: Yeah. That's all I had when I was writing the chorus. It was, I'm just Ken. Anywhere else, I'd be a 10. And I kind of mumbled the rest and - (vocalizing). And all my - I think it was - all my blonde fragility was the original lyric. But I kind of mumbled that lyric as well because it was, like, maybe taking a bit too much license to - like, I had just met Greta and Noah. I didn't want them to think, like, I'm trying to be the - provide the funny or the thing. Like, you guys are the genius writers. Like, let me just give you a song. But she was like, are you mumbling? Is there something about blonde fragility? And, you know, of course it was a nod to "White Fragility," the book, like, everything. And I - but I just - it just felt right. And then we wrote the rest of the chorus, Andrew and I, together.

MOSLEY: Gosling definitely brought your lyrics to life. And I read that when you were in the studio with Bradley Cooper for the song "Shallow" for "A Star Is Born," you warmed him up to sing with pop tunes. What did you do with Ryan Gosling in the studio?

RONSON: You know, it's awkward being with anyone in the studio for the very first time because it's a vulnerable place. And, you know, you're about to go on this - embark on this thing and you're feeling each other out. And as a producer, you're seeing what somebody's, you know, vocal range is and their limits. And you always want to push them but then not push too far because if you're pushing someone to a place - a range they don't have, then you can shatter their confidence. And then the whole session is, like, a wash.

So - and then add to the fact that Ryan is, you know, a giant movie star, and he's coming in here on his, like, one hour off from shooting this giant film. And he came into the studio, and we just talked for a little while. And 15 minutes in, we're like, OK, should we try this? And in the beginning, because Andrew sung on the demo and he has such an amazing range, I just thought, OK, let me make this a little bit easier for Ryan. We're going to lower it a key or two and just start there. And then as Ryan just started to get warmed up, I was like, OK, we could kind of bump this up another key. Oh, and now we can bump it up. And now we're in the original key, and he's just giving this wonderful vocal performance.

And also, because he's just such an incredible actor, he's imbuing all these words with even a different context and emotion than what Andrew and I had even been able to add to it because he is Ken. And he was almost acting out the song as he was singing in a way that was like, oh, I don't know if that's true, but it felt like he was inhabiting the song, which was really wonderful. And I could hear it in what was coming back through the speaker.

MOSLEY: And you mentioned that Greta turned it into an entire scene in the movie with Gosling performing, like, this choreographed dance routine with the other Kens. As a musical producer, that sounds like an exciting challenge 'cause it's not just a song. I mean, there are lots of places that we're going in it. Were you on the set for the performance of it? Were you able to see it all put together?

RONSON: I wasn't able to be there on the set, but I got to see some videos. And what happened was we wrote the whole song. And then Greta is like, I'm adding this scene where they're going to be in this white space having this incredible dance off. And, you know, that's one of the high points of the movie, certainly visually. And we had written something. And she was like, basically, I need you to take it up. I was like - and the song's already pretty, like, to the hilt. And she was like, basically, I need to go to 11.

So they were getting back into the edit suite, and it was obvious that this is a three-minute song that now inhabits a 10-minute part of the movie - the whole battle, everything. And they're just looping little parts of the song, and it's repetitive. I'm like, well, can you just give us the scene, and can we essentially try and score this scene? You know, Andrew and I had never scored a film before, but I think what we were doing by turning "Ken," this three-minute song, into a 10-minute scene in the film was sort of, I guess, proving to Greta in some ways that we could score. And that's how...

MOSLEY: Right.

RONSON: ...She started to give us more scenes and stuff to work on.

MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Grammy Award-winning music producer Mark Ronson. He's the executive producer of the soundtrack for "Barbie: The Album." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MARK RONSON AND ANDREW WYATT'S "MATTEL")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today we're talking to Grammy Award-winning music producer Mark Ronson. His latest work is as executive producer of the soundtrack for "Barbie," the summer hit directed by Greta Gerwig and written by Gerwig and Noah Baumbach. Ronson also composed the film score with Andrew Wyatt.

OK, so when Greta Gerwig contacted you, you were basically like, I'm a huge fan. Of course, I'm on board, which kind of made me surprised when I read that it wasn't exactly a slam dunk that you'd get every artist you wanted for this soundtrack. You had to actually do some maneuvering, calling up friends and friends of friends.

RONSON: I think a lot of people definitely just came to the table on the basis of Greta and the films that she's made before. And, you know, certainly in the case of Billie Eilish and PinkPantheress, that was the case. Some people came because Barbie was important to them and figured in their lives, and that was people like Karol G. Then what we had to do was show everybody a piece of the film. And what we did was, you know, because this was still early on, Greta was still editing the film, we would show maybe 20 minutes of the film, just different scenes, enough so people could get the sense of the film and the tone and the arc.

And then Greta and I had spent time before deciding where we would love a Sam Smith song to go, where we would love a PinkPantheress song to go, and get to show them specifically the scene. And that's what's so great about a lot of the songs that people wrote, because they seem so bespoke - the way that Charlie wrote "Speed Drive" for, you know, a chase scene/through Mattel offices/car chase. I think that what's great is that sometimes you listen to it and you're like, what came first, the songs or the film? It has this nice, interwoven thing. Every artist took what they saw, took the conversation with Greta, and just turned it into - you know, everyone ran with it and did something different.

MOSLEY: The song "What Was I Made For?", sung by Billie Eilish, I think director Greta Gerwig calls it the glittery, pink heart at the center of the film. It really does get to the heart of Barbie's predicament, which is basically what happens when the world turns against you. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WHAT WAS I MADE FOR?")

BILLIE EILISH: (Singing) I used to float, now I just fall down. I used to know, but I'm not sure now what I was made for. What was I made for? Taking a drive, I was an ideal - looked so alive, turns out I'm not real, just something you paid for. What was I made for? 'Cause I, I, I don't know how to feel, but I want to try. I don't know how to feel.

MOSLEY: That was "What Was I Made For?", written by Billie and Finneas Eilish. And it is such an important storytelling device in this movie, Mark. Is it true that Billie and Finneas wrote it within, like, 24 hours?

RONSON: I think they could have. I know that, you know, we had this text chain going. And I know they saw the film. And I think Billie texted maybe a day or two later like, wrote something, with a smiley face - like, such an understated thing for just this, you know, wonderful song that she was about to send to us.

MOSLEY: What was your reaction when you first heard it?

RONSON: Greta and I, I think we got it at the same time, like, a text thread or something. And I think we just immediately called each other. We're like, what is - this song is just insane. Like, what is - I was basically like, what is wrong with these kids? Why are they so good? They're so young, like, you know, like...

MOSLEY: (Laughter).

RONSON: You know, especially when it got to that lyric, like, it's not what he's made for, like, about, like, the way that it sort of applies to the film and could be - apply to many things like it, you know? And so Andrew and I had been working on a lot of pieces for the score, for the more emotional moments. And some of them, oddly enough, weren't really that dissimilar to what Billie and Finneas' song was. So there were moments when we were like, wow, let's take this song and make their song this thread that we weave through the film. And so we had been trying to come up with something for a while, some chords and some score, and we were like, let's just find a way to combine these two ideas and concepts - that Billie and Finneas song mixed with what we had already been doing.

MOSLEY: Can you briefly describe the differences between writing a song and creating a musical score? 'Cause this was part of this project that was different and new for you.

RONSON: So different. And, you know, a lot of my instincts as a songwriter, when you're making a pop song, you're constantly thinking of hooks and melodies and ear candy and secondary hooks and tertiary hooks and stuff like that. And really, scores, sometimes, of course you want to have memorable melodies and things, but you really also need to get out the way. You can't be a distraction. You're there to support the emotional undertow of the film at that moment, especially when there's dialogue or an important scene going on.

And, you know, I love film scores so much, like, everything from the obvious John Williams and John Barry and Danny Elfman to, you know, the '80s scores like Dave Grusin and stuff like that. Like, I love those soundtracks. I've always collected them. But we'd never done anything like that.

MOSLEY: I want to play a piece from the score. It's called "Mattel," which played every time there was a scene with executives at Mattel. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF MARK RONSON AND ANDREW WYATT'S "MATTEL")

MOSLEY: Man, I am a sucker for a good score. That was the song "Mattel" from "Barbie: The Score." Mark, for those who haven't seen the movie, all of the Mattel executives are men, and it feels apt that the music harkens kind of to those green little Army men that boys used to play with. It's very military in its sound. What was the process for finding that kind of layering that strengthens the storyline without maybe being too on the nose with it?

RONSON: Yeah. I think we started off, as you would say, a little bit on the nose. And we had almost scored "Mattel" on this more, like, Death Star, "Star Wars," just the more obvious way that it would be to score sort of ominous. And then Noah had such a great idea, and he was, like can you give them sort of a little bit more of like this false nobility, but they're still kind of bumbling idiots? And so we thought of turning the string motif from the Dua Lipa song, which is a motif that comes back in - you know, throughout the movie. The strings that go, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Like, wow, what if we put that on this marching band, but it sounds a bit more like a high school marching band or, you know, we're obviously always so - college university marching bands. Like, I think it's Grambling State and all the ones and, like, Beyonce uses...

MOSLEY: Oh, yeah. Those are...

RONSON: ...That stuff...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RONSON: ...And "Lose Yourself."

MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah.

RONSON: And it's so impactful. And, you know, just me, 'cause having my background as a hip-hop DJ, you know, those kind of sounds and stuff, I'm always thinking, OK, we're doing a score, but I can't help it. Those influences are going to creep in.

MOSLEY: Before this opportunity, was it an aspiration for you to score a film?

RONSON: I'm sure it was. You know, I don't think it was something that I would have ever put my hand up and say, like, I'd like to score "Barbie," you know. I think the way that it unfolded was so lucky. Listen. I mean, this is one of - now one of the biggest films of all time. I don't know if anybody at the very top of this thing would have been like, yeah, let's just risk it all on some guys that have never scored a film before. I think that we sort of proved ourselves probably along the way enough, but I don't know if we'll score another film because we were so spoiled. I mean, that's a crazy thing to say, but we were so inspired on this. Let's just say that.

MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, when I'm hearing you, I'm also hearing something else. Like, it feels so good and exhilarating and maybe, like, life-affirming to be kind of new at something again. Like, to use the skills you already have to, like, then do something even bigger and more expansive with other parts that, like, you're contributing your part to.

RONSON: Oh, that's the best. I love that. Like, if I ever felt like I was going to stop learning, that's the other thing. Like, you know, during the film, even as crazy as our schedule was, I started taking piano lessons again. I started taking music theory lessons again. I was like, I want to be able to know exactly what the orchestra notation is to these things. I don't want to just be, you know, kind of coasting by on my ear, like, so - yes. And now I'm really going to, you know, now I'm actually really going deep into, like, back to school. But I love that. I love being, A, the excitement of learning something new, B, the humbling of it. It's just - it's the best.

MOSLEY: Our guest today is Grammy Award-winning music producer Mark Ronson. We'll be right back after the break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PINK")

LIZZO: (Singing) When I wake up in my own pink world, I get up out of bed and wave to my homegirls. Hey, Barbie. Hey. She's so cool. All dolled up just playing chess by the pool. Come on. We got important things to do. It's her and her and me and you. And pink goes with everything. Beautiful from head to toe. I'm ready to go. You know, you know. It's pink. Good enough to drink. We like other colors, but pink just looks so good on us. What you wearing? Dress or suit? Either way, that power looks so good on you.

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Today I'm talking with DJ, record producer, songwriter and multi-instrumentalist Mark Ronson. He's won seven Grammy awards for various works, including Amy Winehouse's "Back To Black" and "Uptown Funk" with Bruno Mars. His song "Shallow" for the movie "A Star Is Born" won an Oscar and a Golden Globe Award for Best Original Song, as well as a Grammy. His latest work is as executive producer of the soundtrack for "Barbie," the summer hit directed by Greta Gerwig and written by Gerwig and Noah Baumbach. Ronson also composed the film's score with Andrew Wyatt.

I want to talk to you a little bit about the collaborative process, how you work with artists. In the documentary about you and your work and your life, "From The Heart," vocalist YEBBA said that you give her so much room to find herself. I think Lady Gaga said something similar. And I'm just wondering, what does that look like for you, to give an artist enough time to find themselves within these songs that you're collaborating on?

RONSON: I think that that's almost your main job as a producer, is really just to give the artist the sort of emotional support and then, obviously, the musical support to feel like they can, you know, get their ideas out. So with YEBBA, you know, she wrote this wonderful album, "Dawn," dealing with this very tragic thing of her mother's suicide when she was - when YEBBA was quite young. And so dealing with something when someone's, like - has such delicate personal subject matters, it might be four vocal takes to get the final result, it might be 300 vocal takes.

You know, there's a song of YEBBA's that I adore on that album - her album called "October Sky." And I think that it took so long to get the vocal right because it was so important to - for her to feel like she had access to the emotion, that was important. But I couldn't just make her do 15, 20 takes in a row because she's also singing about something that's just so incredibly devastating. So I think, with everything, you're just there to feel like this sort of padded wall that artists can just go into and just, like, whatever it is, just be safe. I made it sound like - I'm calling myself, like, a sanitarium.

MOSLEY: (Laughter).

RONSON: But what I mean is just, you're just there to make the artists feel like they can do anything. That is, like, as a producer, the best thing that you can do.

MOSLEY: I want to go back to some of your earliest work with your first album, "Here Comes The Fuzz," which came out in 2003. Your lead single was "Ooh Wee," by Ghostface Killah. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "OOH WEE")

GHOSTFACE KILLAH: La, la, la-la. La, la, la, la, la, la, la. Yo, what's the deal, [expletive]? Ain't nothing, pa, we just here and all that, trying to get our heads rights, get this money right and all that. You know what I'm saying? You know how it goes, just another day in the hood. Yo. La, la, la-la. La, la, la, la, la, la, la. Yo. (Rapping) Ayo, what a night. New York City heard it going down. Friday night, midnight, Atlantic City, slot machines ding-ding-ding-ding-ding when they ring off. Lock the doors, that's when Ghost just G'd off. Cigars, paisley robes, four [expletive] guarding me safely as we walk to the window. The cashier was scared, she asked for my info. The manager arrived with two guards. That's an insult. That's cause - just because. We talking bout $5 million here, this ain't Play-Doh dough. And your horoscope read you gon' slay those [expletive]. We got Skribble, Anthony Acid, rocking the show Special guest - Starks, Mark Ronson. First 500 [expletive] went crazy when he let them on and in. All he did was plug me in. I got the charge and got they bras and ran through they whole apartment.

MOSLEY: That was "Ooh Wee" on the first album, "Here Comes The Fuzz." Mark, is it true that, basically, you didn't make any money off of it because of the sample that was used?

RONSON: Yes, it's true. On that song, "Ooh Wee," it actually contains two samples. One of them is, like, a massive sample because it's a standard. It's "Sunny," you know, (singing) sunny, yesterday, my day - so it was a cover by Boney M.

MOSLEY: Boney M., yes.

RONSON: Yeah, the disco band. And then I had a drum loop, which was a sample from Dennis Coffey, who's this, you know, legendary Motown guitar player who's been sampled a lot because of his drum brakes. So when I first went to clear this song, I think, "Sunny," the publishers came back, you know, Bobby Hebb - I guess maybe it was his estate that wrote the song - was like, what? You're sampling "Sunny?" That's one of the classic standards of all time. Fine, we're taking 100% of the publishing. So they wouldn't budge, so I had to go back to Dennis Coffey and be like, OK, well, they've taken 100%. And he was like, well, I don't care. I want 25%. So now I own -25% of my own song.

Now I have to go back to Ghostface Killah and Nate Dogg and be like, hey, guys, I'm really sorry, but basically this is the deal. We own -25% of the song, which eventually what I did was you had to, like, borrow from other songs on the album to, like, manage to make it happen. It was just a big, like, cluster mess. But it's funny because that song, out of anything that I did early on in my career, just gets licensed, for some reason, a lot, and especially in England where it was sort of, like, a nominal hit. It's always in Domino's commercials. And my family's always like, hey, you're in the commercial again. I'm like, it doesn't matter. I can't even...

MOSLEY: I'm not getting anything (laughter).

RONSON: Yeah. No, I can't even get a free pizza. Don't even ask me about it. So I guess what I think was and what was very much my mind state when I was making that first record, it wasn't really about, how much publishing am I going to save for myself? It was like, I might only ever get to make one record in my whole life, so I'm going to make it as fun as I can and all the samples. And, you know, who cares in owning 100% of a song that doesn't mean anything to you? I'd rather own 0% of this song. And, you know, I guess a couple of weeks ago, I was DJing in Brooklyn at this place, Public Records. And this song is now 20 years old. And it's - I started the set with it and it still kind of went off. And I'm grateful I've got it in the DJ crate.

MOSLEY: I don't know why I'm surprised to hear that you still DJ. Where do you DJ? And what does DJing do for you, give you?

RONSON: I just think the art of it, and I think that - I think because it's where I came from. You know, one of my favorite, favorite DJs is this DJ named A-Trak, who's this, like, you know, incredible producer, but really started off at 13 years old winning these, like, worldwide scratching competitions and all these things. And he had a party the other night, and he introduced me in a really sweet way. And he said, you know, all this stuff Mark's done, like, at the core, us DJs claim him as our own, or something like that. And that was the highest compliment because it was something, like, I think another DJ just - you just recognize a way that you interpret music, the way you put music together, I think, you know, when you get on and play.

I love making music. I also love going out and playing other people's music. And I love sitting home and working out a DJ set where I'm going to figure out how to thread a new song, whether it's by Saweetie or whoever, like, into my set. And if I'm going to play the new Saweetie song "Shot O' Clock," how am I going to be able to use that so I can get into the Suzanne Vega song "Tom's Diner" that she sampled and then expose kids to that song as well? I just - I love the way that being a DJ makes you think about music, and I love the fact that I still care so much about it. And it's like a DJ code. I don't know what it is. I think especially hip-hop DJs - people like A-Trak, Clark Kent, Stretch Armstrong, DJ Premier, the people that I came up really looking up to as well - they're all still doing it. I mean, Questlove - you know, he's an Oscar winner. And I'm sure he doesn't have to be doing half of the gigs that I've even shown up and he's playing there, making everybody dance. But it's like we just can't put it down.

MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, Grammy Award-winning music producer Mark Ronson is our guest. He's the executive producer of the soundtrack for the "Barbie" movie. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "OOH WEE")

RONSON: (Vocalizing).

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today we're talking to award-winning music producer Mark Ronson. He's won seven Grammy awards for various works, including Amy Winehouse's "Back To Black" and "Uptown Funk" with Bruno Mars. His song "Shallow" for the movie "A Star Is Born" won an Oscar and a Golden Globe for Best Original Song. His latest work is as executive producer of "Barbie: The Album."

Mark, your father worked in the music business. Your stepfather was a member of Foreigner, and your mother is a writer and a jewelry designer. How do you feel about the term nepo baby, and do you consider yourself to be one?

RONSON: I think by the very definition of the term, yes, of course I'm a nepo baby. You know, my stepdad - you know, he's a musician. He had recording equipment around the house. I got to be inside recording studios from such a young age where I realized, like, these were my happy places. I loved the equipment. I loved all the faders. I just - I think I felt, like, naughty in a way being up to, like - 'cause, you know, they would let me stay up kind of late. I'd, you know, stay up, be at midnight in the studio and realize, like, oh, wait, that's when everybody really starts to come to life and when - you know, 'cause just - they all liked to party back then in those days as well.

So I think that, yes, of course, the advantages that came from, you know, having my stepdad be in music and - I'm sure those helped. I think that when I decided that - you know, I guess when I started off in DJing in hip-hop clubs in New York in the mid-'90s and stuff, like, of course, my stepdad's status as a brilliant rock 'n' roll musician and balladeer, like, had nothing to do with what I was doing. But...

MOSLEY: Did you ever talk about it? Did people even know when you were in that work, when you were a DJ in the '90s?

RONSON: I don't think so. I don't think anybody knew, and I don't think anybody really cared. I think occasionally my stepdad would show up to - like, my mom and stepdad would come to these, like, hip-hop clubs that I DJed down on Canal Street and stuff, and everyone was like, oh, cool. Mark's parents showed up. You know, it was kind of sweet, like, more like a novelty. But my stepdad made some brilliant music and was, like, really sampled.

And at one point, one of my favorite rap groups called M.O.P. sampled a Foreigner song called "Cold As Ice." So the record label called me, and they were like, hey. We know your steppops is in - you know, wrote this song, and M.O.P. sampled it. Do you think you could put in a good word? And I was like, sure. And then the next thing I knew, like, my stepdad's, like, going down to the video shoot in, like, the roughest parts of, like, Brownsville. And he's in the video. Like, you know, there was some nice moments where it even matched up a little bit, but the worlds weren't that together. Yeah. And my stepdad at first - because I did play guitar and did play in bands before I discovered DJing, my stepdad was kind of funny when I started DJing 'cause back in those days, it wasn't like everybody knew what a DJ was. And it was like, what do you mean? You're on the radio? Like, I'm like, no, no, no - club DJ. Like...

MOSLEY: What is that? You - a disc jockey? Yeah.

RONSON: Yeah. Yeah. No, I had turntables, and I practiced scratching all day. And it was funny for him. He was like, well, you know, don't give up your guitar, like, in a way that, like, if I had told a regular family I was going to go play guitar, and they were like, well, don't - you have to go back to law school. His version of, like, me becoming a DJ was like, yeah, well, don't forget to also be a rock 'n' roller or something.

MOSLEY: Right. Right.

RONSON: So it was very interesting. And - but then, of course, you know, like, I started to - you know, once I was just making a living and stuff, there was not much they could really, like, complain about. And they saw that I was - you know, it was something that I loved.

MOSLEY: You know, something funny that Q-Tip said in that documentary about you referencing the time that you two worked together in the late '90s and early 2000s - that you can put on your British accent when you want and your New York accent when you want, but you're hip-hop to your core. And I hear, like, a mix of both in your speaking voice. I'm just wondering. Because you work with so many artists from so many genres, is there a certain code switching that you just naturally do when you're spending so much time with an artist?

RONSON: I think so because I think it goes back to probably what we were talking about about being a producer. You're just trying to make the artist feel at ease and as comfortable and as safe as possible. So I'm sure there's some subliminal things where, you know, I'm - that I'm going to. That's evolutionary behavior. That - you know, I used to - it used to drive me crazy how my accent used to switch in this way that I didn't really have any control over because I moved from England when I was 8 years old to New York. And kids instantly are like, why do you have that funny accent? Why do you talk that way? So I'm sure that had a lot to do with why I just started sounding American very quickly. And then I would go back to England to visit my English friends, you know, 8 years old. And they'd be like, mate, why do you sound like a gank (ph) already?

So, like, I was already - I had only lived in America for three months, and I was already just a stranger in both places. And then when I go back to England, I hear the accent come back that - more. And, you know, we all think, like, if you hear somebody and their voice is switching, you hear them one day and then the next day, the first thing we think is, like, what is this weird, inauthentic person who's, like, putting on these airs or whatever it is? And I would try and just sound one way, but at some point, I realized it was just completely out of my control. It was this subconscious sort of, like, as you say, code switching. And now I just - I hear it. Like, you know, I could be talking to you. If my mother called on the other line and I picked up, I'd say, hi, Mommy. Like, I just can't help it. So...

MOSLEY: Right. Right.

RONSON: It's my axe to grind. And I just now - I just realized, like, OK, that just this is what's...

MOSLEY: It's who you are.

RONSON: It's...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RONSON: ...Going to be who I am.

MOSLEY: You're a new dad, too, right? Congratulations.

RONSON: I am. Yeah. That is the best. That really...

MOSLEY: Has fatherhood brought about any revelations to you about your craft?

RONSON: I mean, it just makes listening to music just so - it's just such another layer to it now because I'm just watching her, my daughter, listen to it. And the thing that she's obsessed with right now, which is a song that I never even knew, is a song from the original "Bambi" score called "April Showers." And it's something that her godmother played. And it's this beautiful sort of, you know, 1930s or '40s orchestral piece. And it's just the way she reacts to it and way she love - like, the second that it starts with this single oboe note and she just - like, literally her head will, like, swing around in the room. It's just this one single note and then nothing for three seconds. And it's like a cartoon the way she reacts to it. And I just love watching her and just listening.

And I'm not going to try and force what I think is great and do all - like, it's not like she's going to be indoctrinated with "Songs In The Key Of Life." Like, if she likes those things, great, but realizing - the things that just resonate to her so far are "Here Comes The Sun" by The Beatles, this "April Showers" from "Bambi" and then a "Sesame Street" song performed by James Taylor from the '70s called "Jellyman Kelly," which is just something. I appreciate these songs so much more for the mood that I see them put her in and especially when they're saving me and my wife from, like, a meltdown.

MOSLEY: Right. Right. Yeah. I am curious about your process of keeping up with the sounds of the moment. As you move through time, as you age, do you think about - is this something that you think about - your contribution staying hot and current and fresh?

RONSON: I think about it a lot because, you know, coming off my last album and - you know, I'm 47 years old. I moved from LA back to New York. And LA really is the hub and center and just be-all of the pop music industry. And New York is my favorite city in the world, but it's not that same New York that it was. You know, all the writers and producers, really the lion's share of people are in LA. And I made this kind of silent agreement. I was just like, I'm going back to New York, and I'm not going to be in the thick of it anymore. And I'm not going to be worried about being on everybody's record and doing these cool projects. I'm just going to do things that I love and also thinking that maybe I'm gracefully - hopefully gracefully bowing out of pop music. Like, it's - you think of it as a young person's game. You know, that's fine. I've had a good run.

And I came back to New York. And, you know, one of the first things that came about when I was back here was working on the "Barbie" thing. And it's funny. Like, you know, so the Dua Lipa song "Dance The Night" - every time I turn on the radio, it's on. And it's a pop - you know, whatever you want to say. It's a bop. It's a banger. Like, it's something that - I guess I thought, like, oh, maybe I was done, or maybe pop music was done with me. And so, yeah, I get so excited by young producers and the sound of what's happening in pop. And any time I try to chase that, it doesn't work, and it feels inauthentic. And I know right away, like, OK, this is not great. But I guess when I sort of hone into the things that that I love - like, I talked about songcraft, arrangement and those things. That's when I feel good about it.

MOSLEY: Mark Ronson, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us.

RONSON: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much.

MOSLEY: Mark Ronson is the executive producer of "Barbie: The Album," which he wrote and produced with Andrew Wyatt. Coming up, Maureen Corrigan reviews Anne Enright's new novel "The Wren, The Wren." This is FRESH AIR.

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TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. Years ago, Irish writer Anne Enright said that her writing practice consisted of rocking the pram with one hand and typing with the other. Whatever her method, it worked. She won the Man Booker Prize in 2007 for her novel "The Gathering" and a slew of awards since. Her new novel, "The Wren, The Wren," is about how the descendants of a famous Irish poet wrestles with his vexed legacy. Book critic Maureen Corrigan has this review.

MAUREEN CORRIGAN, BYLINE: Has there ever been a novel or short story about a male writer who was a decent husband and father? I'm thinking. I've been thinking ever since I finished Anne Enright's new novel, called "The Wren, The Wren." It's a story about a fictional famed Irish poet named Phil McDaragh, who deserts his sick wife and two young daughters, a betrayal that reverberates into his granddaughter's life. Not all literary men have been cads in real life, but misbehavior makes for a more dramatic tale. That's certainly the case with "The Wren, The Wren," which, despite its precious title, is a tough, mordant story about the mess one particular great man of letters leaves behind when he walks out the door. After his death, Phil McDaragh is lauded as the finest love poet of his generation, which is, of course, a pre-#MeToo generation where poet predators grazed with impunity through writing conferences and classrooms. When Phil's first wife, Terry, is diagnosed with breast cancer, he quickly moves on to a beautiful American student destined to become wife No. 2.

Many years later, Phil's younger daughter, Carmel, goes online and discovers a television interview with him, filmed in the early 1980s, a couple of years before his death. In it, Phil reflects on his marriage to Terry, saying, she got sick, unfortunately, and the marriage did not survive. Jaded Carmel sees through the theatricality of Phil's wet-eyed TV performance. But we're also told that Carmel thinks to herself that when her father died, a room in her head filled with earth.

Each chapter of "The Wren, The Wren" is told from the point of view of different members of the McDaragh family. Every character commands attention. But it's Nell, Carmel's daughter and Terry and Phil's granddaughter, who steps out in front of this ensemble. Nell is in her 20s, and her outlook is full of verve and possibility. She loves her grandfather's gorgeous poetry, excerpts of which - conjured up by Enright herself - are scattered throughout this novel. In a faint fashion, Nell is also pursuing a writing career. She's living in Dublin and generating online content for a travel site.

As Nell tells us, a year out of college, I was poking my snout and whiskers into the fresh adult air. At a nightclub, she meets a guy from the countryside named Felim. He literally picks her up by standing behind her, pushing his thumbs into the base of her skull and cupping his hands under her chin. This technique should have triggered red alerts, but instead it takes a while for the otherwise savvy Nell to catch on that Felim is an abuser. Nell says, I realize that every stupid small thing I said that first night we got together had landed somewhere wrong in him, and it rose up now as a taunt. He wasn't listening to me. He was storing it all up.

The power of Enright's novel derives not so much from the age-old tale of men behaving badly, but from the beauty and depth of her own style. She's so deft at rendering arresting insights into personality types or situations. Here's a flashback to Carmel as a child, sitting at her father's funeral, listening to a fellow poet eulogize him. She's wearing borrowed black tights, which made her body feel tight and full of blood like a tick. The other poet is pompously describing one of Phil's poetry collections as an ode to the wandering human soul, and we're told that he made it sound as though Phil had not left his family so much as gone traveling for his work. Phil was off arguing with Dante or with Ovid because someone had to do all that. If her father stopped writing poetry, then something awful would happen. The veil of reality would be ripped away.

Enright packs into that passage both a child's adoration of an elusive parent and intimations of the disillusionment to come. "The Wren, The Wren" is what is still sometimes called a small story, small because it focuses on the emotional life of women. Through the force of her writing, however, Enright makes it clear that such stories are never small when they happen to you.

MOSLEY: Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed "The Wren, The Wren" by Anne Enright. If you'd like to get a peek behind the scenes of FRESH AIR, subscribe to our newsletter. There you'll find bonus material about the interviews, staff recommendations and highlights from our archives. You can subscribe at whyy.org/freshair.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONNY ROLLINS'S "I'VE TOLD EV'RY LITTLE STAR")

MOSLEY: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. For Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.

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