Thinking she had just months to live, Laura Dern's mother 'spilled the beans'

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Laura Dern, has been a professional actor since she was about 11. She grew up in a movie world. Her parents are actors Diane Ladd and Bruce Dern. When Laura was a child, she was an extra in the film "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore," which co-starred her mother and was directed by Martin Scorsese. She wasn't in the typical kids' films or teen films. No, she co-starred in David Lynch's film "Blue Velvet" and starred with Nicolas Cage and her mother in Lynch's "Wild At Heart." For the film "Rambling Rose," she was nominated for an Oscar for best actress, and her mother was nominated for best supporting actress, the first and only time a mother and daughter were nominated for the same film. They made a very convincing mother and daughter in the HBO series "Enlightened," for which Dern received a Golden Globe. Dern won a primetime Emmy for her performance in HBO's "Big Little Lies" and an Oscar for her role in the movie "Marriage Story."

Now she's written a new book that's a series of conversations with her mother. It grew out of her mother's diagnosis of lung disease. Dern and Ladd believe the lung disease was caused by exposure to pesticides sprayed on farms in the area Ladd lives in. The doctor gave her six months to live, but said it might help increase her lung capacity if she took walks.

So Laura Dern took her mother on 15-minute walks every day in spite of her mother's protests that it was too exhausting and painful. To make the time more interesting, Dern basically interviewed her mother and had a long series of conversations, which she recorded for the sake of her own memory and to give to her children. Those conversations have been adapted into the new book "Honey, Baby, Mine."

Laura Dern, welcome back to FRESH AIR. What a pleasure to have you back on the show. How is your mother now? I mean, she'd been given six months to live. I know it's been beyond that. But how far beyond that has it been?

LAURA DERN: It's been almost four years.

GROSS: Oh, wow.

DERN: And as she would tell you if she were here with us today, she says, and instead of dying, I did two movies, a TV show, and wrote a book with my daughter.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DERN: So...

GROSS: I love it.

DERN: She said, that's why they call it practicing medicine, Laura.

GROSS: You know, it's interesting - I mean, I think you are both an environmental and climate change activist, among other things. So that this should happen to your mother is just more evidence for you of what's wrong in terms of our environment.

DERN: That's right. And, you know, it's terrifying when you're in a community, as my mom was, to, you know, quote, "not be in LA air" and go to the local farmers market and try to eat well and consider her health thoughtfully as she was getting older and to have exposure to pesticides and petrochemicals in a state, you know, that as we know is a leader in agriculture. And therefore that means, in addition to all we fight for in regenerative and organic farming, there's a lot of industrial farming. And it's devastating to think my mom with this enormous life who's been through all these things - you know, she says to me, wow, you know, I will die because of pesticides.

GROSS: Yeah.

DERN: So, yes.

GROSS: I relate to your book as an interviewer. And what I mean is I ask questions of people in interviews I wouldn't dream of asking them in another context. Like if we were at a dinner party, I wouldn't ask nearly the kinds of questions, the personal questions, that I ask in an interview. And I feel like in these conversations you had with your mother - because you had this plan to, like, use this as an opportunity to engage her during the walks, but also to learn more about her and share more about yourself. So what is something that you asked her on these walks that you don't think you otherwise might have asked her that was important for you to hear about?

DERN: Well, my mom says, we both thought I was dying, so we spilled the beans.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DERN: And most of us, within our own family particularly, don't spill the beans, or we wait till it's too late and say, oh, I wish I'd asked them this or that. And what shocked me as I would start to engage her in topics is how little I had asked this only child, single mother who raised me, an only child. And yet I hadn't asked her, why did you, from this tiny town in Mississippi, think, I'm going to be an actor? That's what I want to do. What was the first movie that inspired you? Who were the actors you fell in love with? Given that I became an actor as well, and we worked together, as you mentioned, a number of times, wouldn't that be a natural conversation? It never came up. Things as seemingly mundane as favorite foods, favorite colors, favorite flowers that were just to pass the time - it moved me so much how little the people in our most intimate relationships - how little we ask. And I know her emotionally, but I never asked where those feelings stemmed from.

GROSS: Yeah. I want to play a scene you did with your mother in the HBO series "Enlightened." I'm not going to set up the whole story. I will just say that you had basically a ragey (ph) nervous breakdown at work, and you go off to rehab in Hawaii where you learn to meditate, and you return home changed by it. You've learned to meditate, to calm the rage and anger and to center yourself and focus. And you come home with an exercise that you're supposed to write a letter to somebody who you have difficulty communicating with. So you come home, and your mother, who's played by your mother, Diane Ladd, is there. And here's the scene where you start reading her the letter that you were told to write in rehab.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "ENLIGHTENED")

DERN: (As Amy Jellicoe, reading) Mother, they have asked me to write a letter to the person I have the most difficulty communicating with. It was not hard for me to decide who that person is.

DIANE LADD: (As Helen Jellicoe) How long is this going to take?

DERN: (As Amy Jellicoe) Do you have somewhere to be?

LADD: (As Helen Jellicoe) No. I just want to know how long this is going to take.

DERN: (As Amy Jellicoe) Not long. I've just got to read you what's on these papers.

LADD: (As Helen Jellicoe) Well, I can read, honey.

DERN: (As Amy Jellicoe) But I'm supposed to read it to you, Mom. That's the point.

LADD: (As Helen Jellicoe) OK, Amy.

DERN: (As Amy Jellicoe, reading) You and I have been through a lot - Dad's death, all of Bethany's issues, my divorce, money problems. You name it. We have dealt with it. I know I have disappointed you in many ways. And, yes, there have been times that you've disappointed me. But I want to change that. And I truly believe that we can change. And if we can change, anything is possible. If we can change, the whole world can change for the better.

LADD: (As Helen Jellicoe) I don't know what that means, honey.

DERN: (As Amy Jellicoe) Mom, can you just let me finish, and we'll talk after?

LADD: (As Helen Jellicoe) Is this what they asked you to do up there?

DERN: (As Amy Jellicoe) One of the things, yeah.

LADD: (As Helen Jellicoe) And what medications did they give you?

DERN: (As Amy Jellicoe) Mom, nothing. I'm off my medication.

LADD: (As Helen Jellicoe) Well, why on Earth?

DERN: (As Amy Jellicoe) Mom, I don't want to talk about my medications. I'm here reading you a letter.

LADD: (As Helen Jellicoe) I just want to be sure that you are OK.

DERN: (As Amy Jellicoe) OK. I just...

LADD: (As Helen Jellicoe) Look. Don't get irritated with me because I just want what's best for you. That is all I have ever wanted.

GROSS: Such a beautiful scene about miscommunication and not understanding each other and having, like, a different approach to expressing things.

DERN: Yeah.

GROSS: When you work with your mother, as you've done several times, does it make you self-conscious because you know each other so well? It's not like a professional relationship because you have, you know, the deepest personal relationship anybody has.

DERN: Well, first of all, thank you for playing that scene. I'm just smiling and cracking up over here as I'm listening to it because it is the extraordinary writing of Mike White, who, you know, just...

GROSS: He's great. Yes.

DERN: ...Navigated...

GROSS: Yeah.

DERN: ...The complexity of that dynamic, as you mentioned. And, you know, in the book, in our conversations, my mom talked about the joy she had remembering the first time we worked together on "Wild At Heart," the first film we did together. And we had to do this very emotional scene. And she remembered me preparing for the scene at one end of the set and her at the other - both doing our work, both having trained separately as professionals, you know, not engaged in that together - and then coming together to do this very emotional scene.

And the camera rolls. And David Lynch called action. And it's very emotional. And I'm crying in her arms. And he said, cut. And mom describes us pulling away and her looking in my eyes and realizing that she knew exactly what had brought up the emotion in me. And I looked at her and felt I knew the emotion and the pain she was expressing in the scene - both very personal, both never discussed. But we just know each other so well. And so at that moment, we started laughing hysterically, right after this big crying scene. And Mom describes the whole crew looking at us as if we were nuts. But it was such a personal, intimate, beautiful thing to share - the kind of knowing and bringing it into this professional space, but also the boundaries of that professional space - that it's sort of this unspoken language. Or...

GROSS: So you wouldn't ask your mother, what were you thinking of when you made that scene?

DERN: Exactly.

GROSS: Yeah.

DERN: And yet we knew.

GROSS: But you knew, yeah.

DERN: And yet we knew and never discussed it. Yeah.

GROSS: As a child, was it confusing to see your parents in roles playing people who were not like them? Was it confusing to know, like, who's my real parent and who's somebody who they're playing at being?

DERN: I think I was literally born into it. I think they said the first set they brought me to, I was, like, 3 weeks old. And they used the dresser drawer of the motel...

GROSS: (Laughter).

DERN: ...As my crib on a film they were working on. And I think I would watch them transform so much that it clearly was their job. So I think I never felt the confusion. I felt almost part of it because I had the good fortune of watching them, although when I was 5 or 6, my grandma and I were watching, like, a movie of the week. And "Hush... Hush, Sweet Charlotte" was playing. And we're halfway into the movie. And I think my grandma had forgotten that my father was involved in flashback as the young lover. And there is a shot at the end of the movie of Bette Davis holding a hatbox at the top of a staircase. And something rolls out of that hatbox, and it is something that was clearly no longer an entire human Bruce Dern, but just the head of him.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DERN: And I was hysterical, needless to say. And my grandma had to get my dad on the phone to explain that, like, you know, he had his head, and he was OK, and it's just a movie.

GROSS: (Laughter) Oh, God.

DERN: And even in middle school, I remember some kids teasing me because one of them said their dad had said that they couldn't have a playdate with me because my dad killed John Wayne.

GROSS: Oh, in the movie "The Cowboys."

DERN: Yeah. And I was like, well, yes, he played a character who kills John Wayne in a movie. But that's not my father. So I remember even at 12 trying to sort of defend and justify that they're not their roles. And I didn't love that other people were confused. But luckily, I wasn't terribly confused.

GROSS: You wrote, I think, in the book or said it in an interview - I don't remember which - that you felt protected as a kid because - I mean, your parents separated when you were 2. But you felt protected because your father was known as the guy who killed John Wayne in a movie, John Wayne's character. And that gave him a kind of, you know, bravado or toughness. Like, don't mess with this guy.

DERN: Oh, yeah. And, I mean, for all that, you know, all of us have discussed as women in our workplace environments - you know, we've all had to navigate so much. And I was in - you know, especially starting work so young - very potentially uncomfortable or even dangerous circumstances. And I know people knowing my parents, and certainly guys knowing my dad, I think, were careful with me, you know? They knew not to mess with Bruce's kid. And I think I was very, yeah, blessed. So thanks, Dad, for playing bad guys in Westerns.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Laura Dern. And she and her mother, actress Diane Ladd, have a new book that's basically adapted from the conversations they had when her mother developed lung disease and was told if you take walks, it will help expand your lungs. So Laura Dern made sure that she was with her mother daily for walks and talks. The new book is called "Honey, Baby, Mine." We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF PAUL SIMON SONG, "ONE MAN'S CEILING IS ANOTHER MAN'S FLOOR")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with actress Laura Dern, Oscar-winning actress Laura Dern. Her new book, co-written with her mother, is called "Honey, Baby, Mine." And it's based on a series of conversations they had after her mother developed lung disease and was told, if you take walks, that will help you expand your lung capacity. So Laura Dern made sure that she was with her mother daily for walks and recorded their conversations.

So during the walks you took with your mother, you learned a lot about what it was like for her when she was starting out as a young, beautiful actress. And I'd like you to compare her experiences to when you were starting to act in your teens and even pre-teens in terms of how you were treated as actresses, you know, as females and ways in which you feel, you know, you both feel that you may have been, you know, exploited, taken advantage of, potentially preyed on. So can you can you compare for us, like, your mother and her generation and you?

DERN: My mother, from a tiny town, with a mother who, as much as she wanted to be protective, had never seen any example of this industry, was at home remaining - and her veterinarian father - in this tiny town in Mississippi, while she went into the giant, scary world of wanting to become an actor, in theory, quote, "no matter what it took." And that is such a dangerous potential world to enter with that kind of longing and no money. But I knew the business, and my parents knew the business. And I knew - not only did I have, instinctually, an awareness of what felt, you know, appropriate and not appropriate, but my mother warned me based on her experiences, and my mother had none of that.

And the more my mom has shared, the more I've had my eyes opened, entering my 50s, you know, not with the sort of protections my mom gave me as a teenager of, like, this is what you look out for, and don't ever let someone, you know, offer you a ride or say they're going to help you or just come to my hotel room when you're on location or - you know, she prepared me for a lot of things that terrified her based on everything she walked through without that knowledge. But now she talks about ambition with so much pride because when I was growing up, I remember starting in this business and being like, oh, watch her. That girl is so ambitious. And then a movie star guy would come in and he'd go, isn't he amazing? I know. Incredible ambition. It's just gorgeous to watch, isn't it?

GROSS: Oh, yeah.

DERN: Right?

GROSS: I see the contrast. Yeah.

DERN: And so I was like, ooh, yeah, yeah, OK. I'm not going to be ambitious. I'm not going to make anybody think I'm trying too hard. I'm not going to compliment myself. I'm going to - and so my mother has reminded me at this age about, you know, not dimming your light and being proud of ambition and being proud to continue to challenge yourself.

GROSS: So what are some of the things that you were exposed to on set or in auditions that you think were totally inappropriate, and there was no outsider there to protect you, and you had to figure out how to protect yourself?

DERN: I was incredibly lucky at how much didn't happen. You know, I say that with awareness of, you know, the blessing of the certain people that I did work for. But, you know, just, why is a 13-year-old auditioning at the Chateau Marmont in a hotel room alone with a man in his 40s, and there's nowhere to sit but on a bed? Now, nothing happened, but the dynamic is there. I'm walking into a room...

GROSS: And this is, like, pre-intimacy coordinator or anything like that. Yeah.

DERN: Oh, yeah. I mean, I just worked with my first intimacy coordinator ever, and I had to have her explain the job to me. And I was confused. You know, it was almost - you know, it was wild. Like, just learning that this could be possible was just so eye-opening. And I think it brought up a lot for us when we had those first experiences, thinking of the near misses and the overt discomfort in the space. Even if you were seemingly safe, you know, it creates an environment that says, these are the people in charge, and you are a submissive. And that's, you know, first of all, just for a creative environment, it's horrific. You know, you can't be your most free in a space you're not - you don't feel safe in. So a lot has changed. And thank God that would never happen again without, you know, several people in the room.

GROSS: So I'm going to reintroduce you here, and then we're going to have to take a break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Laura Dern, and the new book of conversations that she had with her mother is called "Honey, Baby, Mine." And her mother, of course, is Diane Ladd, the actress. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ANGELO BADALAMENTI'S "AKRON MEETS THE BLUES")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Laura Dern. Her new book, "Honey, Baby, Mine," is adapted from a series of conversations she had with her mother, actress Diane Ladd. The conversations were recorded during their walks together after Diane Ladd was diagnosed with lung disease, and her doctor said daily walks would help increase her lung capacity. Laura Dern and Diane Ladd have acted together in several films - "Rambling Rose," "Wild At Heart," and in the HBO series, "Enlightened." Laura Dern's father is actor Bruce Dern.

One of your early films as a teenager was called "Smooth Talk." It's based on a Joyce Carol Oates story. And you were a teenager then when you played the part, and you played the role of a teenage girl who's kind of feeling her sexuality for the first time and is seeing that as, like, the most valuable, noticeable part of herself. So after "Smooth Talk," you made "Blue Velvet." And in order to make "Blue Velvet," you had to drop out of UCLA after being there for two days. You asked permission to basically take a leave to shoot the film. They not only told you no, they said, like, why would you want to make such a weird movie anyways? And by the way, don't come back.

DERN: Yeah, yeah.

GROSS: If you're going to make this...

DERN: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Movie, don't come back.

DERN: Yeah.

GROSS: Do you know what made David Lynch think of you? - because, you know, as you've said, you play the role of somebody really innocent within a movie where Dennis Hopper plays somebody who is so perverse and so sadistic and so just kind of twisted. And Isabella Rossellini plays a very, you know, weird, eccentric character. It's a very dreamlike, poetic movie but a very, very dark one, even though you're the innocent in it. So what made him think of you? And I'm thinking, you know, you still had that innocence, but you also knew a lot. You knew a lot about movies because of your parents and because of the experiences you already had. You could handle yourself. And, yeah, so, like, what made him think about you?

DERN: I don't know why, but I walked in a room to audition. He had met other actors and would meet more. He had not seen me in a film. The casting director had seen me, supposedly, in "Mask" and "Smooth Talk" at that point. But when he met me, he says he just knew. And then he asked that I have lunch with he and Kyle McLachlan to kind of, you know, see our connection or chemistry at Bob's Big Boy and there...

GROSS: Sparing no extravagance.

DERN: (Laughter) Exactly. There, you know, it was clear. The three of us - I think it was clear the three of us were going to be family for the rest of our lives. It was wild. It was just such a union. And I held something instinctually for him that was what he needed for his movie, and he trusted it. I never read for him. I don't know how I got so lucky, but I really like his instincts.

GROSS: My understanding is you weren't allowed on set during the scenes where Dennis Hopper's character is acting especially, like, perverse, including, I guess, the scenes where he is huffing some kind of gas through, like, an oxygen mask and a canister. And there's, I mean, crazy sex scenes. So you weren't allowed on set for that, I guess in part because you were still a minor.

DERN: Yeah. I think...

GROSS: But also...

DERN: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Like, you had to maintain your naivete 'cause your character wasn't witness to that.

DERN: Exactly.

GROSS: So you didn't really know what was going on in that part of the movie. What was your reaction when you saw it?

DERN: Well, my first reaction actually took place during filming, which is, yeah, I think even if I wasn't a minor, David would have been very protective of me not seeing the other world that Jeffrey, Kyle MacLachlan's character, was entering. I was only in this other part of the story and the innocence of, like, we're going to play detective and, you know, discover things. So I was, like, curious about the dark side, but never went deep into it. And I think he never wanted me to know it. And then on camera when we, at the end of the movie, enter the apartment and see bloodshed and horror in that apartment, that was on film. And I think David purposely wanted me to discover that on film. He kind of let me know a sense of what I might experience, just like the scene where, you know, Isabella is walking naked down the street and I...

GROSS: Right.

DERN: ...See that horror for the first time, you know, of what's happening and why is she intimate with this boy I'm liking? And, you know, I think that was quite brilliant of David to sort of keep me on the outskirts of all of that. But then seeing the movie for the first time - we became like family, and so I had time in the edit room and I saw certain scenes. But seeing the whole film - I want to say certainly the first time we saw it with an audience, David, Kyle and I sat together at Telluride Film Festival. And, I mean, I don't know. This is where the weird stuff of being raised by artists in childhood really serves me. I was laughing at, I guess, all the wrong or totally appropriate moments from David's perspective. I felt glee and horror and fascination. I found it spiritual and esoteric and traumatizing, but I wasn't afraid of David's work.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Laura Dern, and she and her mother, actress Diane Ladd, have a new book that's basically adapted from the conversations they had when her mother developed lung disease and was told if you take walks, it will help expand your lungs. So Laura Dern made sure that she was with her mother daily for walks and talks. The new book is called "Honey, Baby, Mine." We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF TO ROCOCO ROT'S "MISS YOU")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with actress Laura Dern, Oscar-winning actress Laura Dern. Her new book, co-written with her mother, is called "Honey, Baby, Mine." And it's based on a series of conversations they had after her mother developed lung disease and was told if you take walks, that will help you expand your lung capacity. So Laura Dern made sure that she was with her mother daily for walks and recorded their conversations.

I want to play another formative scene from your career. And this is "Citizen Ruth." This is one of your early films. I'm forgetting what year it is. Do you remember? Like...

DERN: Maybe '96.

GROSS: Yeah, that sounds right. So you play somebody who's had several children that were taken away from her. You're dealing with a lot. And there's the possibility of you going to prison. Meanwhile, you find out you're pregnant. You definitely want an abortion. You're confident you want an abortion. A Christian family takes you under their wing. And the woman, the Christian woman, takes you to a center that you think is going to help you get an abortion. But it's a Christian anti-abortion center, which you find out as the woman who I think is a nurse is talking to you. And then the doctor comes in. So let's hear that scene. And you're trying so hard to convince them that, you know, you really, really want this abortion.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "CITIZEN RUTH")

DERN: (As Ruth Stoops) I need to get an abortion.

KATHLEEN NOONE: (As Nurse Pat) Let me just ask you something, Ruth. Have you ever really taken the time to think about what it means to have an abortion?

DERN: (As Ruth Stoops) Yeah, it means that I don't have to go to jail. And it means I don't have to have another baby. And it means that I can start getting my life together.

NOONE: (As Nurse Pat) I - don't you think that's all just a little selfish? Isn't there someone else who you need to consider, someone who's living inside you right now just waiting to be born?

KENNETH MARS: (As Dr. Rollins) Now, when you have your baby, what would you like to have? Would you like to have a little boy or a little girl?

DERN: (As Ruth Stoops) What do you mean?

MARS: (As Dr. Rollins) Well, we're just talking here. Let's say you decided to have the child. Would you like it to be a little boy like this one?

DERN: (As Ruth Stoops) Maybe a girl.

MARS: (As Dr. Rollins) A girl.

NOONE: (As Nurse Pat, laughter).

MARS: (As Dr. Rollins) Yes. And what are we going to name this little pumpkin? Are we going to call it Mary or Sally or Susie or...

DERN: (As Ruth Stoops) Tanya.

MARS: (As Dr. Rollins) Tanya.

NOONE: (As Nurse Pat) Baby Tanya.

MARS: (As Dr. Rollins, laughter).

DERN: (As Ruth Stoops) But I can't have a baby right now. I don't want another baby. Oh, man, you don't understand. I'm in a really bad, bad situation right now. I mean bad.

NOONE: (As Nurse Pat) We know it's hard, Ruth, very hard. But you have to face reality. If you feel as though you can't raise Tanya, we can put you on to an excellent adoption agency.

MARS: (As Dr. Rollins) Yes.

DERN: (As Ruth Stoops) What's the matter? Are you [expletive] people deaf? I said I want an abortion.

GROSS: OK, we hear you.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: I neglected to mention your character is also addicted to drugs and huffs paint. You were raised Catholic. Your grandmother, your mother's mother, was very Catholic. Your mother is or was very Catholic. But by the time you were 10, I think, you had gone to an ERA - an Equal Rights Amendment rally. And you decided you were pro-choice. So this movie kind of fit with your perspective. But how did that come into conflict with your mother or your grandmother's, if she was still alive, Catholicism?

DERN: My amazing mother and grandmother would say that to be religious, to be spiritual, means to be endlessly supportive of anyone's rights, human rights, to choose their destiny. And I have been raised pro-choice and Catholic since birth.

GROSS: Interesting.

DERN: And I am very blessed and have met nuns who are pro-choice and many, many people within that community, even. My mother is very open-minded. And I learned to meditate when I was 8 years old. And she has, you know, explored many spiritual paths as well as being raised Catholic. But even for my grandmother, you know, who had her own opinions of the choices she would make for her life, but always honored a woman's choice, a family's choice. So that was huge in our - in my upbringing.

GROSS: So that clip gives us a little taste of the kind of anger and rage you are capable of projecting on screen.

DERN: (Laughter).

GROSS: It gets greatly amplified as time goes by and is especially apparent in "Big Little Lies." And I'm not going to play a clip from that because when you get the ragiest (ph) in "Big Little Lies," you also use the most obscenities.

DERN: (Laughter).

GROSS: So it wouldn't play well on radio, could get us into a lot of trouble. But, like, you don't strike me as somebody who, like, breaks out into rages. So what do you draw on to get into that kind of explosive frame of mind?

DERN: As I said to our incredible director, one of my favorite humans and best of friends who passed away recently, Jean-Marc Vallee, our extraordinary director of "Big Little Lies," as well as the film "Wild" that Reese Witherspoon and I also did together - Jean-Marc and I were talking about the character's rage, Renata. And he was talking about, you know, where it would come from. And I said, you take any woman off the street who has not had rage expressed, and she is ready to play this part. Years of bottling up anger and trying to say the right thing, or be around explosive people and try to calm the storm, you definitely, you know, have so much. And by the way, if you watch the news, you can play Renata.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DERN: You know? I mean, I think we're already...

GROSS: Because it outrages you so much.

DERN: Oh, my God.

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah. I think you've become something of a gay icon. And as evidence of that that. But one year - I think it was, like, 2019 maybe - at the Independent Spirit Awards, which is basically, like, the indie version of the Oscars, the Gay Men's Chorus of Los Angeles sang a song. The premise of the song was there's, you know, many more gay characters represented in movies now. This song is a tribute to gay scenes that aren't really gay scenes. So there's tribute paid in the beginning of this song to Idina Menzel in "Uncut Gems," to Jennifer Lopez, Octavia Spencer, Frank Ocean, Renee Zellweger's press tour, and then the whole rest of the song is you. It's about different scenes you've been in, and then it ends with just the whole chorus singing your name over and over again. And then the soloists come in and singing your name. So let's just hear that last part.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

GAY MEN'S CHORUS OF LOS ANGELES: (Singing) Laura Dern. Laura Dern. Laura Dern. Laura Dern. (Vocalizing). Laura Dern. Laura Dern. Laura Dern. Yeah, yeah. Laura Dern. (Vocalizing). Laura Dern. Laura Dern. And that's on periodt (ph).

GROSS: So when - what was - I'm sure that was a surprise to you, right?

DERN: I mean, such a shock. And I've never laughed so hard in my life.

GROSS: Yeah, you looked it.

DERN: And - oh, my God. And all of us - I mean, I was with the group that made "Marriage Story" together, so we were all laughing so hard. And two of my best friends were sitting at the table next to me - Naomi Watts and my manager, Jason Weinberg. So all of us - there were, like, 10 of us just hysterical. Like, we didn't know what to do or - oh, it was just beautiful.

GROSS: Did you know how popular you were within the gay community? Did you think of yourself of having, like, any kind of gay icon status before that?

DERN: I would only say by association. I had the great privilege of participating in Ellen DeGeneres' coming out episode, "The Puppy Episode" of her show.

GROSS: Yeah. Well, you were the person who gave her her first kiss.

DERN: And that was an amazing experience. And from that came a lot of love and a lot of hate, and I learned a lot, by association, of what it feels like to be true to yourself in the world.

GROSS: When you say a lot of hate, you mean that you received a lot of hate.

DERN: Yeah.

GROSS: I mean, you needed a security detail after that...

DERN: Yeah, exactly.

GROSS: ...Because - you didn't work for a year after that.

DERN: Yeah.

GROSS: Like, people weren't giving you parts, and you were already, you know, very popular. So what do you feel like you learned from that experience about yourself, about America, about homophobia, which now has kind of crossed the line into transphobia?

DERN: It's so devastating that that seemed like innocent times, right? And, you know, it was that long ago now.

GROSS: This was before social media.

DERN: Yeah. And it's just so shocking that we're here. Standing up and expressing who you truly are is extraordinary, and all of us should be part of that together. But to actually be locking eyes with Ellen and hold her shaking hands as she said I'm gay on national television, and for the first time, as she has shared, out loud in that way publicly, was such a profoundly, extraordinary and intimate gift into that moment that I will forever be grateful for.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is actor Laura Dern. Her new book is a series of conversations with her mother, actor Diane Ladd. It's called "Honey, Baby, Mine." We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF HANK JONES AND DAVE WESS' "HANKERIN'")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Laura Dern. She starred in "Blue Velvet," "Jurassic Park," "Enlightened," "Big Little Lies," and won an Oscar for "Marriage Story." Her new book is a series of conversations with her mother, actor Diane Ladd. It's called "Honey, Baby, Mine."

I want to end with a clip from the role you won an Oscar for. So this is a scene from the 2019 movie "Marriage Story." In this movie, you play a divorce lawyer, and you're the lawyer for Scarlett Johansson's character. And in the scene we're about to hear, you, the lawyer, is helping her practice her answer to questions that she may be asked in a deposition. So before we hear the scene, I want you to talk about inhabiting this character and what she means to you, 'cause she talks to a great feminist line. She also, you know, intentionally dresses in a very sexy way in court. She's a kind of complicated figure herself. So can you talk a little bit about, you know, how you see this character and what it was like to play her?

DERN: I'll just share briefly the context, which is that both Noah Baumbach and Greta Gerwig are like family to me now. And I had worked on...

GROSS: And she directed you in "Little Women," and he.

DERN: Exactly.

GROSS: ...Directed "Marriage Story"...

DERN: And so we were...

GROSS: ...And wrote it, too, right?

DERN: Exactly. And in terms of this character, we just had so much fun not only dreaming up but witnessing the business of divorce. Noah met several divorce lawyers, as did I, and the context being how to work the system for your client, how to work the judicial system, how to present as well as who you are in the gut and, like, the business of kind of growing discord because it makes more money. It prolongs a divorce. All of those things kind of fed into who this character would be. And it was, oh, my God, the time of my life - amazing. Mark Bridges, the costumer, who is such a genius - I'd worked on a Paul Thomas Anderson film, "The Master," with him. And he, alongside Noah, just helped invent who she would be. And it was the time of my life. I loved playing this character.

GROSS: Well, let's hear the clip. And, again, this is Scarlett Johansson's character rehearsing being deposed for the divorce hearing. And you play her lawyer who's coaching her. We'll hear Scarlett Johansson speak first. Laura Dern, what a great pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you so much. And please send my best wishes to your mother for her health. She doesn't know me. We've never talked, but still sent her my best wishes.

DERN: Thank you so much. And she was so thrilled I was getting to come speak to you today about our book and our experience together. And I just - if I may say as one shout-out, the more we talked and the deeper and more complicated of subjects we shared, my mother got better and better and better. So talking and sharing your truth physically heals a person. And that was our experience. So I hope others will do the same. It's been a great gift.

GROSS: Thank you, Laura Dern. Be well, and I wish your mother well.

DERN: Thank you.

GROSS: OK. And here's Laura Dern and Scarlett Johansson, with Scarlett Johansson speaking first.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MARRIAGE STORY")

SCARLETT JOHANSSON: (As Nicole Barber) You know, he can be an ass****.

DERN: (As Nora Fanshaw) I'm going to stop you there. When you do this for real, don't ever say that. People don't accept mothers who drink too much wine and yell at their child and call him an ass****. I get it. I do it, too. We can accept an imperfect dad. Let's face it. The idea of a good father was only invented, like, 30 years ago. Before that, fathers were expected to be silent and absent and unreliable and selfish. And we can all say we want them to be different, but on some basic level, we accept them. We love them for their fallibilities. But people absolutely don't accept those same failings in mothers. We don't accept it structurally, and we don't accept it spiritually because the basis of our Judeo-Christian whatever is Mary, mother of Jesus, and she's perfect. She's a virgin who gives birth, unwaveringly supports her child and holds his dead body when he's gone, and the dad isn't there. He didn't even do the f***ing. God is in heaven. God is the father, and God didn't show up. So you have to be perfect. And Charlie can be a f***-up, and it doesn't matter. You will always be held to a different, higher standard. That is the way it is.

GROSS: That was Laura Dern and Scarlett Johansson in a scene from the film "Marriage Story." Laura Dern's new book of conversations with her mother, actor Diane Ladd, is titled "Honey, Baby, Mine." Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be playwright and actor Jeremy O. Harris. The breakout Broadway production of his play "Slave Play" earned 12 Tony nominations, making it the most Tony-nominated nonmusical play in history. This spring, as a producer, he helped bring the revival of Lorraine Hansberry's play "The Sign In Sidney Brustein's Window" to Broadway. I hope you can join us. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BLUE VELVET")

ISABELLA ROSSELLINI: (As Dorothy Vallens, singing) She wore blue velvet. Bluer than velvet was the night. Softer than satin was the light from the stars. She wore blue velvet. Bluer than velvet were her eyes. Shadows fall so blue, as lonely as a blue, blue star.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.