Spinal Tap is back. Director Rob Reiner says they're still dialed up to 11

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Finally, there's a sequel to the groundbreaking 1984 mockumentary "This Is Spinal Tap." And the director and co-star Rob Reiner is here to tell us about that film and his life and career. "This Is Spinal Tap" was the most influential mockumentary that helped pave the way to movie and TV mockumentaries, including "The Office" and "Parks And Recreation."

"Spinal Tap" satirized heavy metal bands and rock documentaries. The band is known for its excesses, its loud volume, a bass player who stuffs his pants, incredibly sexist lyrics, as well as on- and offstage mishaps. In the new sequel, "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues," the band members return for a reunion concert. As in the original film, the band is portrayed by Michael McKean, Christopher Guest and Harry Shearer. Reiner reprises his role as the director of the documentary about the band. This time around, Paul McCartney and Elton John make appearances as themselves. There's also a companion book.

Rob Reiner has had a remarkable life. The films he directed include "Stand By Me," "The Princess Bride," "When Harry Met Sally," "A Few Good Men" and "Misery." His father, Carl Reiner, created the '60s sitcom "The Dick Van Dyke Show." Rob Reiner was a star of the groundbreaking show in the '70s "All In The Family."

Let's start with a scene from "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues." The premise of the film is that the band's former manager has died and his daughter inherited the band's contract. She discovers the contract calls for a final concert, which is why the band reunites. She's also found a new road manager. He's played by Chris Addison. In this scene, he's giving advice to the band.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SPINAL TAP II: THE END CONTINUES")

CHRIS ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) If this is the final gig that Spinal Tap do, then what we need to do is secure your legacy. Now, the simplest and most effective way...

CHRISTOPHER GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) Yeah?

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) ...That we could do that is that if, during the gig, at least one but ideally no more than two of you were to die. That's what I call the Elvis effect.

MICHAEL MCKEAN: (As David St. Hubbins) Yeah.

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) It really allows for a sort of...

GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) Do you mean...

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) ...Late flowering of the...

GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) ...Pretend die?

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) I think that would complicate matters. It's easier if you just - if - you know, if the...

MCKEAN: (As David St. Hubbins) If we just expire?

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) ...If the exertion - expire.

GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) Do you mean actually die?

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) Yes. Yeah.

GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) Well, yeah, but I don't...

MCKEAN: (As David St. Hubbins) That's a bit...

GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) ...Want to.

MCKEAN: (As David St. Hubbins) ...Hard to arrange. Why would we...

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) No, no, no, I appreciate that. But I think in terms of your legacy going forward, how you'll be remembered, how you'll be...

GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) Well, but that's...

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) ...Talked about...

KERRY GODLIMAN: (As Hope Faith) Well, that...

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) ...What effect that will have on record sales. I'm thinking documentaries. I'm thinking a huge memorial concert.

MCKEAN: (As David St. Hubbins) You can do that without actually...

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) I'm thinking...

MCKEAN: (As David St. Hubbins) ...Killing one of us, though, can't you?

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) It's very difficult to do a memorial concert when the person is still alive. That's just a sort of rule of thumb.

MCKEAN: (As David St. Hubbins) Would you settle for a coma?

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) Oh, no, that's interesting.

MCKEAN: (As David St. Hubbins) You know?

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) Oh, no, now...

GODLIMAN: (As Hope Faith) That could get...

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) ...David, that's interesting.

GODLIMAN: (As Hope Faith) ...Really expensive.

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) That - that's a great bit of thinking outside, well, the literal box, I suppose...

MCKEAN: (As David St. Hubbins) Yeah. Yeah.

ADDISON: (As Simon Howler) ...Actually.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Rob Reiner, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulation on the sequel. I'm very glad that you made it, and I know everyone else will be too.

ROB REINER: Thank you.

GROSS: One of the things that's very interesting about the film - the first and maybe particularly the sequel - is that you have a band that started off as, you know, kind of, like, young and rebellious and, you know, all that. And now, like, Spinal Tap - they're in their 70s, and it just makes no sense for them to be singing some of the lyrics that they're singing. And that happens to a lot of bands who end up performing their old material about teenage love, you know, when they're in their 70s. But these are songs about, like, their sexual prowess, and...

R REINER: (Laughter).

GROSS: And they're incredibly - some of them are just, like, incredibly, like, sexist. So it sounds so inappropriate in so many ways.

R REINER: Yeah. The beauty of these guys - the members of the Spinal Tap - is that in all those years from their 20s, 30s, up now until their 70s, they have grown neither emotionally or musically. There's no growth. They're - they basically are in a state of arrested development for, like, 50 years. And the only growth that there is maybe skin tabs...

GROSS: (Laughter).

R REINER: ...From getting older.

GROSS: (Laughter) They have to be biopsied (laughter).

R REINER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

GROSS: Did you want the second movie to reflect how music documentaries have changed? Because if I did my math right, like, "Spinal Tap" - like, "This Is Spinal Tap" precedes the MTV and VH1 music documentaries that became so famous. And so...

R REINER: Well, there were...

GROSS: ...Parody...

R REINER: Well, there were a lot of music documentaries before we made the first film. I mean, you know, the - Led Zeppelin had "The Song Remains The Same." The Who had "The Kids Are Alright." And then of course, you know...

GROSS: "The Last Waltz."

R REINER: Bob - yeah. "The Last Waltz" was Scorsese. And the first one was the Bob Dylan documentary by Pennebaker. You know, the...

GROSS: Yeah.

R REINER: ..."Don't Look Back"...

GROSS: "Don't Look Back."

R REINER: ...You know?

GROSS: Yeah.

R REINER: Yeah. So there were these documentaries, but - so what we were doing was not only satirizing heavy metal, but we were satirizing the documentary form and the way in which documentaries were presented. And I - you know, basically, the reason my character, Marty DiBergi, who's the - supposedly the documentarian of the film, is in the film is because in "The Last Waltz," I saw, oh, yeah, there's Marty Scorsese. He's in the film. He's documenting this last concert by the band, but he's also in the film. The first film I shot with a 16-millimeter camera. You know, it's a film camera. Now we have digital cameras, and I shot with two cameras.

And I try to - you know, Marty - let's take the character Marty, who's making the film. I have to always filter it through how he would make it, not necessarily how I would make it. And I try to say, will he be affected by the new, modern type of techniques that they use in reality shows and, you know, what you see up on social media and all that? And I think he's - you know, he may try a little bit, but basically, he's stuck in his own inabilities to make it any hipper or cooler than he was. So he hasn't grown all that much either.

GROSS: I want to play one of the most famous moments from the first Spinal Tap film. And it's the scene where Christopher Guest as Nigel Tufnel is showing you, the director of this documentary, his guitar equipment. And he's showing you his amp, which goes up so loud 'cause this band prides itself on how loud it is. It goes up so high, it goes past 10 to 11. So here's an excerpt of that scene.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THIS IS SPINAL TAP")

GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) What we do is - if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?

R REINER: (As Marty DiBergi) Put it up to 11?

GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) Eleven, exactly. One louder.

R REINER: (As Marty DiBergi) Why don't you just make 10 louder, and make 10 be the top number and make that a little louder?

GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) These go to 11.

GROSS: And he looks, like, totally baffled by what you said.

R REINER: What makes that funny...

GROSS: Yeah.

R REINER: ...Is the long pause he gives. And the reason he gives that pause is 'cause he doesn't know I'm going to say, why don't you make 10 a little louder? He - I just came up with that then, and so it stops him for a second. And then he says, well, these go to 11. And what's interesting is that that phrase - goes to 11 - is now in the Oxford English Dictionary as something that is commonly used for not just loud music but anything that's done in excess, something that goes beyond what it normally does. So it's weird that something that we just threw off like that all of a sudden becomes part of the lexicon of our lives. It's very strange how these things have taken root.

GROSS: You started making "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues" in 2024, on your 77th birthday. And everyone in the movie is the same or approximately the same age as the characters they play.

R REINER: Right. Right.

GROSS: Did making the film make you think more about how you've aged since the first one and all that's happened to you in between?

R REINER: Oh, sure. You can't ignore it. I mean, you, you know - hopefully, our minds are still sharp and that we're still able to, you know, as Chris Guest calls it, schnadle (ph). We can schnadle with each other back and forth. But yeah, you don't walk...

GROSS: Schnadle is his word for improv?

R REINER: Yeah, yeah, he says, you know, we schnadle with each other, which is true. I mean, and what's interesting is that after 15 years of not, you know, working together, we came back and started looking at this and seeing if we could come up with an idea. And we started schnadling (ph) right away. It was like falling right back in with friends that you hadn't talked to in a long time. It's like jazz musicians, you know? You just fall in and do what you do.

GROSS: You are a part of so many comedy-related things, and so are your friends. So I'm going to start with, like, your father was Carl Reiner.

R REINER: Yes.

GROSS: And he created "The Dick Van Dyke Show" and before that, wrote for and acted in Sid Caesar shows back in the 1950s. Albert Brooks, your good friend from high school, you made a movie...

R REINER: Yes.

GROSS: ...About him.

R REINER: Yes.

GROSS: You did an act with Joey Bishop's son before he made movies. You co-founded an improv group and did a lot of improv. In the '70s, you were on one of the most popular and groundbreaking sitcoms, "All In The Family." You wrote with Steve Martin for the Smothers Brothers summer replacement show early in your career. You were the third host of "Saturday Night Live." I mean, I could go on. You have three movies in the National Film Registry - "When Harry Met Sally," "The Princess Bride" and "This Is Spinal Tap." Yikes, that's, like, so much comedy history.

R REINER: I'm tired, Terry.

GROSS: (Laughter).

R REINER: I'm tired when you read that (laughter).

GROSS: When you make a friend or meet somebody, is being funny one of the first traits you look for in someone?

R REINER: Well, you know, it's interesting. Yes, of course, you want to, you know, connect with somebody that, you know, you can connect with on the same level. When I was young, you know, you mentioned, you know, my dad and Sid Caesar. You know, he also did, to me, the greatest comedy albums ever done with Mel Brooks, called, you know, the "2000 Year Old Man." And to me, they're the hippest, funniest comedy albums ever. And when I was a kid and teenager, and I come home from school, I would put on one of the albums. I did it almost every day for a long time. And I listened to it because I thought, God, this is so brilliant. And that was improvised, too. I thought, you know, when I met somebody, if they dug the "2000 Year Old Man" and they could quote lines from it, I knew it was somebody I could connect with because they were on the same wavelength as I. It was like a good test to see if this is somebody I could connect with.

GROSS: Was the "2000 Year Old Man" album and subsequent versions of it one of the reasons why you wanted to do improv?

R REINER: Well, no, not really. I mean, that's something I always, you know, I was drawn to. I mean, I loved Second City. I love the committee. I used to go visit the committee when up - when they were up in San Francisco. And we got the idea when I was at UCLA - I guess I was about 18 or 19 at the time - to start our own improvisation group. And I wanted to do what my dad did. I - you know, when I was a little boy, my parents said I came up to them and I said, you know, I want to change my name. And I was about 8 years old, I guess. I said, I want to change my name. And they said they were, oh, my God, this poor kid, he's worried about being in the shadow of a famous guy and living up to and all this. And they said, well, what do you want to change your name to? And I said, Carl.

GROSS: (Laughter).

R REINER: And they said - I said I loved him so much. I just wanted to be like him, you know? And I wanted to do what he did. And I just looked up to him so much. So, yeah, I was surrounded by all of this. And I look at - there's a picture in my office of all the writers who wrote for Sid Caesar and the "Show Of Shows" over the nine years, I guess, that they were on. And when you look at that picture, you're basically looking at everything you ever laughed at in the first half of the 20th century. I mean, there's Mel Brooks. There's my dad. There's Neil Simon. There's Woody Allen. There's Larry Gelbart. I mean - Joe Stein, who wrote "Fiddler On The Roof," Aaron Rubin, who created "The Andy Griffith Show." Everybody - anything you ever laughed at is represented by those people. So these are the people I look up to, and these are the people that were around me, you know, as a kid growing up.

GROSS: Did you ever want to be in a band? 'Cause so many people in the entertainment world at some point wanted to be in a band.

R REINER: Of course I did. You know? I mean...

GROSS: But did you ever play?

R REINER: I can sing. I can sing, and I can sing on pitch, but that's about it. And I - you know, I would have killed to be able to - I love blues. I'm a big fan of the blues. I mean, I can - I listen - any blues guitarist, you know, you got me hooked. And when I saw Michael Bloomfield, who played with the Paul Butterfield Blues Band, and then played with a band called Electric Flag, I said, wow, God. And he's Jewish, you know?

GROSS: (Laughter).

R REINER: He's a white Jewish guy.

GROSS: (Laughter).

R REINER: And he's playing the blues, and he's unbelievable. And I thought, boy, I would just kill to be like Michael Bloomfield. Just the playing of the music, not the other parts, which weren't so good for him.

GROSS: Well, let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. There's so much to talk about. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rob Reiner. He directed, co-wrote and co-stars in the new sequel to "This Is Spinal Tap," which is called "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF CLARK TERRY AND RED MITCHELL'S "SWINGIN' THE BLUES")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rob Reiner. He directed, co-wrote and co-stars in "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues," which is a sequel to the heavy metal band mockumentary, "This Is Spinal Tap."

So I want to play a scene from "A Few Good Men," and this scene has that very famous line, you can't handle the truth. But it's so, like - he and Tom Cruise - Tom Cruise is prosecuting the colonel played by Nicholson, who's being court martialed. So this is, like, the dramatic climax to that whole part of the story. And so I want to play that scene, and I have a very specific question for you, which is in directing Jack Nicholson: how do you draw the line between giving a lot and giving too much? You know, like, where is the line between, like, chewing the scenery and a great dramatic performance? So let's listen to the scene.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "A FEW GOOD MEN")

JACK NICHOLSON: (As Colonel Nathan Jessup) You want answers?

TOM CRUISE: (Lieutenant Daniel Kaffee) I think I'm entitled.

NICHOLSON: (As Colonel Nathan Jessup) You want answers?

CRUISE: (Lieutenant Daniel Kaffee) I want the truth.

NICHOLSON: (As Colonel Nathan Jessup) You can't handle the truth. Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's going to do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

GROSS: So Rob Reiner, you directed "A Few Good Men," which that scene is from. So with Nicholson, he's a great actor. But, you know, some great actors can just give a little too much sometimes. And that's such a heightened scene. Did you have to figure out, like, is that enough? Is that too much?

R REINER: I tell you, with Jack Nicholson, he's one of the greatest actors of all time. He's in the pantheon of all-time great movie stars and actors. And his instincts are impeccable. You don't have to tell Jack Nicholson to hold back or, you know, give more or whatever. He knows what he needs to do.

Interestingly enough, and he really - to my opinion, really great actor. He doesn't mind if there's a humorous thing or something that needs a line reading. He doesn't mind. He'll say, how do you want me to say that? Because he likes - it's like a great musician. He wants to hear the notes. How do you say it? And since, you know, that's one of the things I do, you know, he'll say, how do you want me to say that? And he's happy to take a line reading. But I got to tell you...

GROSS: Can you give us an example?

R REINER: The first day of rehearsal, you do a table read. You know, you sit around and you read the script. The performance that you see on film is the same performance he gave in the read around the table. And normally, actors will just kind of mark it just to hear. But he gave a full out performance. And it sent a message to all the other actors - Tom Cruise, Demi Moore, Kiefer Sutherland, you know, Kevin Bacon and Kevin Pollak - all the actors that were there that we come to play here. You know, this is what we do. And it put everybody in a place.

It's like being on a baseball team and watching Babe Ruth step into the batting cage before the game, and he's hitting one ball after the other out of the park. And so they said, oh, we got to step up our games, too. And Jack is smart because he knows that the more he gives, the more he's going to get back. And it's going to make other people's performances better, and that ultimately is going to make his performance better.

GROSS: More to react to.

R REINER: Yeah. And when we did that scene, the famous, you know, you can't handle the truth scene, I asked him. I said, Jack, you know, you got this great speech. And, you know, I can either shoot the coverage, meaning the reaction shots and have you off camera, or if you're ready, I'll shoot you now, and then, you know, I get the reaction shots later. He said, well, why don't you shoot the reaction shots, you know, and that way, it'll give me a chance to work into it. I said fine. So he's off camera. And I'm shooting, you know, a shot for, you know, Tom Cruise and one of Demi and one of Kevin Bacon. And, you know, I've got different angles. And every time we go through the scene, he gives the exact same performance, the one you see on camera.

And at one point, I go back to Jack. I said, Jack, you know, maybe you want to wait and hold some of this back. And, you know, when I turn around the camera and be on you, you'll have everything, you know? You don't want to waste it here. He says, no, Rob, you don't understand. I love to act. He said, this is a great part, and I don't get a chance to play great parts that often. So that was him. What he did off camera, what he did at the reading, what you see on camera is what you get from Jack Nicholson.

GROSS: My guest is Rob Reiner. He directed, cowrote and costars in the new sequel to "This Is Spinal Tap," which is called "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues." We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SPINAL TAP SONG, "TONIGHT I'M GONNA ROCK YOU TONIGHT")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Rob Reiner. He directed, cowrote and costars in "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues," which is a sequel to the heavy metal band mockumentary "This Is Spinal Tap." Other films Rob Reiner directed include "Stand By Me," "The Princess Bride," "When Harry Met Sally..." "A Few Good Men" and "Misery." He's made documentaries. The latest is one about Albert Brooks, which is streaming on HBO Max. His father, Carl Reiner, created one of the most popular and enduring TV shows of the '60s, "The Dick Van Dyke Show." And Rob Reiner was a star of a groundbreaking show in the '70s, the sitcom "All In The Family."

You decided to give your mother what turned out to be the most famous, most quoted line from "When Harry Met Sally..." This takes place in the deli, a very famous deli in Manhattan, Katz's Deli. When Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal, their characters are having lunch together, they're friends. And Billy Crystal is kind of, like, going on about, you know, his dating life, how good it is and how satisfied, you know, sexually satisfied the women he's dating are. And Meg Ryan is a little skeptical.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: And she says, like, how do you know that it's real? I mean, how can you judge if what they're expressing is real or not? And he goes, oh, I know. And she goes, oh, really? And then she starts faking the noises as if she's having an orgasm, and everyone in the deli stops eating. Everyone's staring at her. Billy Crystal is watching people stare at him and Meg Ryan. And she's going on and on. And then your mother has this famous line when Meg Ryan is done that your mother says to the waiter. So let's play a short excerpt of that.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WHEN HARRY MET SALLY...")

MEG RYAN: (As Sally Albright) Oh. Oh. Oh, God. Oh.

ESTELLE REINER: (As character) I'll have what she's having.

GROSS: I'll have what she's having.

R REINER: Yeah.

GROSS: How did you decide, oh, that's the line I'm giving my mother?

R REINER: Well, first of all, Billy Crystal came up with that line. We had the scene. We knew we were going to do a scene where Meg was going to fake an orgasm in an incongruous place, like a deli. And Billy came up with the line, I'll have what she's having. And when he did - and he came up with it, you know, before we went to New York. He came up with it in rehearsal. I said, we need to find somebody, an older Jewish woman who could deliver that line, which would seem incongruous. And I thought of my mother because my mother had done a couple of little things. She did a thing in a movie that Anne Bancroft directed called "Fatso." And she did a couple of other little things. And so I thought, oh, she'd be perfect for it.

And so I asked her if she wanted to do it and she said sure. And I said, now, listen, Mom, you know, we don't know - hopefully, that'll be the topper of the scene, it'll get the big laugh. And if it doesn't, you know, I may have to cut it out, because I know the scene is funny with Meg doing that. And she said, that's fine. You know, I just want to spend the day with you. I'll go to Katz's. I'll get a hot dog, you know, whatever it is.

GROSS: (Laughter).

R REINER: She was fine with it, you know? She was OK. And then when we did the scene, the first couple of times through, Meg was kind of tepid about it. She didn't, you know, give it her all. She didn't go full out. And so I said, let's try it again. And she was nervous. She's in front of, you know, the crew and there's extras and people. She did it a few times, and then it was never exactly what eventually wound up in the film. And at one point, I get in there, and I said, Meg, let me show you what I meant. And I sat opposite Billy, and I'm acting it out. And I'm going - pounding the table.

GROSS: (Laughter).

R REINER: And I'm going, yes, yes, yes. I'm pounding the table.

GROSS: (Laughter).

R REINER: And then I turned to Billy, and I said, Billy, this is embarrassing here. He says, what? I said, I just had an orgasm in front of my mother.

(LAUGHTER)

R REINER: You know, but then Meg came in. And she did it, obviously, way better than I could do it.

GROSS: So I interviewed your father back in 1988, and I don't know if you ever heard that.

R REINER: I haven't.

GROSS: OK.

R REINER: But, you know, I'm sure it was great. He's great to talk with.

GROSS: So there's an excerpt where I asked him about you, and I want to play that excerpt.

R REINER: OK.

GROSS: Is that OK?

R REINER: Yeah. Sure, sure.

GROSS: Yeah, you want to hear it?

R REINER: Yeah. Yeah.

GROSS: OK. So this is Carl Reiner, Rob Reiner's father, in 1988.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: Let me ask you about your son, Rob Reiner. He first became an acting star in "All In The Family" as Meathead. And then he became a director, directing movies like "Princess Bride," "Spinal Tap," "Stand By Me." Did you ever expect him to go into show business?

CARL REINER: Oh, not when he was very young, although he had a tremendous ability to remember everything he'd ever seen. I mean, he's one of these kids who absorbs - he was one of those kids who absorbed everything he saw on television and movies. But he never stated loudly that he was going to do it. But in his heart, he wanted to be a director always. Isn't that amazing? And he only told us about it later.

When he was about 19 years old, I saw him direct Ricky Dreyfus. And they were friends when they were in high school. And he directed a version of "No Exit," by Satre. And it was brilliant. He was only about 18 or 19 at the time. At that point, his road was starting to be paved. He wanted to be a director, and there's no question that he knew that. And he wasn't telling it to everybody because, you know, when you're young and say I want to be a director, they say, oh, get out of here. And he had it in his mind. I'm sure all the time he was on "All In The Family," he was planning it.

GROSS: Do you show each other your work?

C REINER: Oh, yes. You're asking something very, very current. You're the first one. FRESH AIR has got the first piece of information about this. Last night, I saw a preview - not a preview, a rough cut of Rob's new movie, which he's not sure of the title yet. So far it's "Harry, This Is Sally" or "Sally, This Is Harry." I'm not sure of the title. With Billy Crystal, Meg Ryan, Carrie Fisher and Bruno Kirby. Well, I'm going to go on record as saying it is the most beautiful, successful glorious romantic comedy that I have ever seen. I called Rob today and I said, gee, whether I'm your father or not has nothing to do with this. I mean, that is a masterwork of moviemaking.

GROSS: Do you remember him telling you that? And was that an important affirmation for you?

R REINER: You know, first of all, just hearing his voice, it's got to me a little bit there. You know, I miss him, you know? And I still hear him, you know, all the time in my head, so to listen to that was pretty amazing. Anyway...

GROSS: Do you want a moment?

R REINER: No, it's alright. It's all right. I mean, you know, he talked about, you know, the time I directed "No Exit." And that was the first time that he ever acknowledged that he thought, you know, I was good at what I was doing. He came backstage after the performance. And he looked me in the eye, and he said, that was good, no bull****. And that's the first time he ever said anything like that to me. 'Cause I had acted in - you know, in summer theater, and I - one of the things I did was I played the lead in "Enter Laughing," which was a play based on a book that he wrote which was semiautobiographical, and he came to see it. And I don't think he thought at that time that I was very good or anything. I mean, I'd gotten good reviews. People seemed to like it. But I - he kind of - he said, oh, good job. Good job. You know? But he - I kind of sensed that he didn't think it was all that good. And I did audition when he made the film of "Enter Laughing." I auditioned for a smaller part, you know, and he rejected me. And so it doesn't get any bigger than getting rejected by your father for something that, you know, he's doing.

And so I guess it wasn't until I was 19 that he validated that to me, and then I came to visit him at the house. After he said that, I visited him. You know, I was living away at the time. And I was sitting with him in the backyard, and he said to me, I'm not worried about you. You're going to be great at whatever you do. You know, he lives in my head all the time. And, you know, he's - he was a - I had two great guides in my life. I had my dad, and then Norman Lear was like a second father. So I - you know, they're both gone, and - but they're both with me, always.

GROSS: Your father said that he didn't find out until later that you wanted to direct. Did you not tell him that you wanted to direct?

R REINER: No. No. But I never said specifically, I want to be a film director. I never said that, and I never really thought that way. I just knew I wanted to act, direct and do things - you know, be in the world that he was in. And it wasn't until I did "Stand By Me" that I really started to feel very separate and apart from my father because the first film I did was, you know, "This Is Spinal Tap," which is a satire. And my father had trafficked in satire with Sid Caesar for many years, so - and then the second film I did was a film called "The Sure Thing," which was a romantic comedy for young people, and my father had done romantic comedy. You know, "The Van Dyke Show" is a romantic comedy, a series.

But when I did "Stand By Me," it was the one that was closest to me because I was one of four friends, and I felt that my father didn't, you know, love me or understand me. And it was the character of Gordie that expressed those things. And the film was a combination of nostalgia, emotion and a lot of humor, and it was a real reflection of my personality. It was an extension, really, of my sensibility, and when it became successful, I said, oh, OK. I can go in the direction that I want to go in and not feel like I have to, you know, mirror everything my father has done up till then.

GROSS: You know, you just said you felt like your father didn't love or understand you when you were growing up, but you've also talked about how much you loved your father and wanted to be like him. You even wanted to take on his name at some point, call yourself Carl Reiner. Those two things seem contradictory.

R REINER: Well, they're not because loving your father and looking up to your father doesn't necessarily mean you're feeling that back, that you're feeling that from him. And the scene in "Stand By Me" where the boys finally find the dead body, and they're sitting there, and Gordie starts to cry and - you know, he's sitting there with River Phoenix, who plays Chris Chambers, and he says, my father didn't love me. And Chris says, no, he did love you. He just didn't know you. And that scene - I wrote that scene in a hotel room in Oregon, in Eugene, Oregon, when we were shooting up there. And as I was writing that scene, I started crying because that's the way I felt.

GROSS: Well, we have to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rob Reiner. He directed, co-wrote and co-stars in the new sequel to "Spinal Tap," which is called "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF CAKE SONG, "TOUGHER THAN IT IS")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rob Reiner. He directed, co-wrote and co-stars in "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues," which is a sequel to the heavy metal band mockumentary "This Is Spinal Tap."

So I have to ask you - I feel obligated to ask you about "All In The Family," which was such a popular show in the 1970s and kind of controversial for its depiction of the generation gap between the parents and the daughter who is married to you. You're the son-in-law in it. And you're very liberal and the father's really conservative, and that's a constant battle between the two of you. That's one of the main themes throughout the series. But, you know, Norman Lear was very liberal. He founded, you know, People For the American Way. What was that experience like for you? Like, how old were you when you first started performing in that? The series started in '71.

R REINER: Right. I was 23. And this is, to me, what's interesting about all this, and it was groundbreaking at the time. Nobody had done a show like this. CBS - when they put it on, they had a big disclaimer at the beginning saying, you know, the views that are represented in the show don't represent the views of - basically, it was a disclaimer saying, I don't know how this show got on here, but...

GROSS: (Laughter).

R REINER: ...You want to watch it, you watch it at your own risk. You know, we don't...

GROSS: Don't sue us (laughter).

R REINER: Anyway. Yeah, don't - yeah, I don't know. Somebody put it on. Anyway. But here's what was interesting about this. We were a country at that time of about 200 million people. And we were No. 1 in America for five years straight, every single week. And every week, 40 to 45 million people watched that show. And they had to watch it when it was on because there was no TiVo. There was no DVR, no video cassettes, nothing. Now we're a country of, you know, upwards of 340 million people. And if you can get 5 to 10 million people watching a show on a given night, that's a huge hit, and they're not all watching it at the same time.

GROSS: Well, there's politics itself that has become - like, everybody talks about that, but pop culture is no longer the glue that it once was 'cause there are so many options that everybody is doing their own thing and not watching or listening at the same time. So I know exactly what you're saying. What was it like for you to be famous at that age? You were already from a famous father and had...

R REINER: That helped. That helped.

GROSS: You went to school with the children of very famous people, and...

R REINER: Right.

GROSS: ...Other people who you went to school with were becoming famous, too. But what was it like personally to have people recognize you? Did that make you feel good? Was it feeling intrusive?

R REINER: I got to tell you, it was bizarre. You know, to be on a show of that power and that reach, it was like being in the Beatles. I mean, you'd go into a restaurant or you'd go into - I remember one time that Jean Stapleton and myself and Sally Struthers walked into an airport restaurant, and the entire restaurant stood up and cheered and started applauding. It was that kind of response that you don't see so much now, you know, with people in television.

So it was - that was strange, but you have to take it with a grain of salt because you want to entertain them, and you hope that you do, but it doesn't matter what they think. You have to do something you like to do, and hopefully, other people will like it, too.

GROSS: So let's end with music from the new film, "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues." There's a reprise of a song from the first "Spinal Tap" film, probably the most famous song or at least one of them, "Stonehenge." And this is about, like, the beginning of the world and a very pretentious song. But in this one, Elton John, who makes an appearance in the sequel - he's at the piano and sitting in with Spinal Tap. So the introduction is done by Christopher Guest, you know, the spoken introduction. And then the song is actually sung by Elton John, who, again, is at the piano.

So Rob Reiner, thank you so much. It was really - been a pleasure to talk with you, and thank you for the "Spinal Tap" movies.

R REINER: Well, thank you so much for having me.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "STONEHENGE")

GUEST: (As Nigel Tufnel) In ancient times, hundreds of years before the dawn of history, lived a strange race of people, the druids. No one knows who they were or what they were doing. But their legacy remains hewn into the living rock of Stonehenge.

SPINAL TAP AND ELTON JOHN: (Singing) Stonehenge.

ELTON JOHN: (Singing) Where the demons dwell, where the banshees live, and they do live well.

SPINAL TAP AND JOHN: (Singing) Stonehenge.

JOHN: (Singing) Where a man's a man, and the children dance to the pipes of Pan.

GROSS: Rob Reiner directed the new film "Spinal Tap II: The End Continues," the sequel to "This Is Spinal Tap."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "STONEHENGE")

SPINAL TAP AND JOHN: (Singing) Stonehenge.

JOHN: (Singing) Tis a magic place, where the moon doth rise with a dragon's face.

SPINAL TAP AND JOHN: (Singing) Stonehenge.

JOHN: (Singing) Where the virgins lie, and the prayers of devils...

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR.

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. The Peacock streaming service recently unveiled all 10 episodes of its new comedy series called "The Paper." It's a sequel of sorts to NBC's long-running sitcom "The Office," with an almost completely new cast of characters but with the same mockumentary workplace format. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.

DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: "The Paper" arrives with an unusually long and impressive TV lineage. It starts with the original British version of "The Office," which premiered in 2001 on the BBC, starring Ricky Gervais as paper company executive David Brent. That entire series consisted of a dozen episodes and a movie-length finale.

But after "The Office" closed up shop, its series concept was sold to NBC, where it was developed for American television by Greg Daniels. Daniels had written for "The Simpsons," "King Of The Hill," and "Parks And Recreation" and adapted "The Office" with respect for its main structure and characters. Like the British version, it was presented without a laugh track and framed as though a documentary crew was capturing the workplace dynamics and private comments of employees at a paper company.

The instantly identifiable character types were retained as well. For America, the clueless, self-important boss, Michael Scott, was played by Steve Carell. The will-they-or-won't-they lovestruck coworkers, Jim and Pam, were played by John Krasinski and Jenna Fischer. And playing the office nemesis, Dwight, was Rainn Wilson.

The NBC version of "The Office" premiered in 2005 to initially lukewarm reviews, including mine. I loved the original British sitcom so much, I thought the Americanized adaptation arrived as a pale imitation. But very quickly, the writers and actors found their own comic rhythms, and the stories became original by necessity. NBC's "The Office" thrived and finally ended in 2011 after nine seasons, followed by an encore finale special two years later. And now "The Office" is back, sort of.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE SCRANTONES' "SONG FROM THE NINTH FLOOR (MAIN THEME FROM 'THE PAPER')")

BIANCULLI: Peacock's "The Paper" is cocreated by Greg Daniels, who has returned to steer this new ship, and Michael Koman, a writer on "Saturday Night Live," "Late Night With Conan O'Brien" and "Nathan For You." Their framework for "The Paper" is so similar to what Daniels did for "The Office" that it borders on reverential. Even its opening theme has echoes of the original.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE SCRANTONES' "SONG FROM THE NINTH FLOOR (MAIN THEME FROM 'THE PAPER')")

BIANCULLI: "The Paper" is about a once-thriving, now-dying local newspaper and some new efforts to save it, even though some of its company managers have a very low opinion of journalism in general and the Toledo Truth Teller in particular. Like so many businesses these days, the Dunder Mifflin Paper Company seen in "The Office" has been absorbed by a larger corporation. The new business is called Enervate. It's based in Toledo, Ohio, and the documentary crew from "The Office" is back to check them out.

The crew is given a basic tour by company executive Ken Davies, who's played by Tim Key and whose character is 1 of 2 antagonists in this show. He has the same abrasive personality as David Brent from the original "Office" and a similar British accent as well. The buzzing at the start is from an electric razor used by an office staffer shaving at his desk nearby. And as you hear that, you also hear Ken's disdain for the company's local newspaper.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE PAPER")

TIM KEY: (As Ken Davies) Enervate sells products made out of paper. So that might be office supplies. That might be janitorial paper, which is toilet tissue, toilet seat protectors and local newspapers. And that is in order of quality.

BIANCULLI: The other office nemesis is Esmeralda Grand, whose accent is Italian. She's a flamboyant attention hog played wildly and delightfully by Sabrina Impacciatore, who was Valentina in Season 2 of "The White Lotus." When "The Paper" begins, she's basically in charge. And when she takes over the company tour, the filmmakers stumble on a very familiar face. It's Oscar Martinez, played by Oscar Nunez. He's the accountant from NBC's "The Office" who finds himself once again stalked by a camera crew and not at all happy about it.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE PAPER")

SABRINA IMPACCIATORE: (As Esmeralda Grand) Anyway, here are two accountants and the head accountant - boring, boring and head boring.

OSCAR NUNEZ: (As Oscar Martinez) God, not again. I'm not agreeing to any of this. Don't you guys have enough after nine years? Nobody wants this. You know what? You can't use my voice, my likeness, my face, nothing.

BIANCULLI: "The Paper" also features Domhnall Gleeson, who stars as incoming editor-in-chief Ned Sampson, and Chelsea Frei as eventual cub reporter Mare Pritti. They're destined to become the Jim and Pam of this series. And when Ned arrives in Toledo with optimistic dreams of restoring this nearly dead news operation, he's also a bit like Ted Lasso. Gleeson, from the Star Wars and Harry Potter franchises and from the movie "Ex Machina," is a perfect sitcom star, instantly likable.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE PAPER")

DOMHNALL GLEESON: (As Ned Sampson) My name is Ned Sampson. I am signing the visitors log even though I am not a visitor. This is my first day working at the Truth Teller. I'm so excited to be saying that. When I was a kid, I didn't want to be Superman. I wanted to be Clark Kent, 'cause to me, Clark is the real superhero. He's saving the world, too, by working at a newspaper. And that to me is much more noble and much more achievable. And I love that.

BIANCULLI: These characters and actors will win you over quickly and completely, partly because the performances are so smart and partly because the writing is, too. The issues facing journalism these days, from online clickbait to corporate interference and a real concern for the survival of the printed newspaper, run all through "The Paper." But it's primarily a comedy, a very, very funny one. And by the end of the 10th episode, you're likely to love both the characters and its emotional cliffhanger.

GROSS: David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed "The Paper," which is now streaming on Peacock.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, with the 2026 midterms looming, President Trump is floating proposals to ban mail-in ballots and even voting machines. We'll talk with election law expert Richard Hasen, who will reflect on what this says about the state of our democracy, the broader push to reshape it and what's at stake for free and fair elections. I hope you'll join us.

Therese Madden directed today's show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.