'SNL' castmember Bowen Yang shares a piece of 'cultural contraband' from his youth

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We've been hoping to get Bowen Yang on our show for a long time, and today, it's actually happening. The timing is great. He's nominated for an Emmy for outstanding supporting actor in a comedy series for his performances as a cast member of "Saturday Night Live." This is his fourth time being nominated. The first time was in 2021 for his first year as a performer. He started on the show as a writer.

Back in 2016, a couple of years before he joined "SNL," he and his good friend Matt Rogers started the podcast "Las Culturistas," which is on Time magazine's recent list of the hundred best podcasts ever. That show features Bowen and Matt giving their take on what's happening in pop culture and what's happening in their lives. In 2022, they started doing a mock awards show, the "Las Culturistas" Culture Awards, which Rogers has described as a comedy show disguised as an awards show. Earlier this month, the ceremony was televised for the first time on Bravo, and it was one of the most entertaining awards shows I've ever seen. It's streaming now on Peacock. More about that later. Bowen also starred in the movies "Fire Island," this year's remake of "The Wedding Banquet," and he was in "Wicked."

Bowen Yang's parents are Chinese immigrants. His father is from a remote region of Inner Mongolia. Bowen flew there right after the "Las Culturistas" award show. We'll get to that later, too. Bowen is the first Asian American cast member of "SNL" and the third openly gay male cast member. Some of the characters he's known for are the Chinese trade representative Kim Jong Un, George Santos, the Chinese spy balloon and the iceberg that sank the Titanic. The premise of a couple of his sketches is that he's not really gay. He just pretends to be gay on "SNL" for the clout.

In one of the most talked-about sketches of this year, he played Vice President JD Vance at that contentious White House meeting with President Trump, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Senator Marco Rubio when Trump and Vance kept interrupting Zelenskyy, accusing Zelenskyy of interrupting them, of being disrespectful and of not showing his gratitude to the U.S. It's the same sketch in which Mike Myers made an appearance as Elon Musk with his chainsaw. Here's an excerpt with Mikey Day as Zelenskyy, Bowen Yang as JD Vance. And James Austin Johnson, as Trump, speaks first.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

JAMES AUSTIN JOHNSON: (As Donald Trump) President Zelenskyy, you want to say a few words, maybe tell Mr. Putin how much you love him and that you're sorry you invaded Russia? Maybe offer him one night with your wife?

(LAUGHTER)

MIKEY DAY: (As Volodymyr Zelenskyy) Mr. President, with all due respect, I...

BOWEN YANG: (As JD Vance) Excuse me. I'm sorry. What? I'm sorry. I have to jump in here because that's how we planned this. What happened to thank you, OK? Remember thank you? You haven't said thank you to us once in the past 15 seconds I've been yelling at you.

DAY: (As Volodymyr Zelenskyy) I've said thank you.

YANG: (As JD Vance) You didn't say it now. But you didn't say it now. When you walked in here, you didn't say thank you. You didn't say anything about us being handsome. Who are my handsome little boys? You didn't ask that once.

JOHNSON: (As Donald Trump) Look, he's right, and we're very handsome, OK?

GROSS: Bowen Yang, welcome to FRESH AIR. I laugh every time I hear that. You are so much fun in that. How did you get cast as Vance, and how did you approach playing him?

YANG: Well, first of all, it's lovely to be here, and I want to say that my delay in arriving at the show is not for lack of interest or not because of my aloofness, my natural aloofness. I've been wanting to be here for a very long time. So it's really nice to be here.

How did I get cast as Vance? This was about a year ago in August, right when the season was starting up. Lorne had reached out and sort of had his plan for how he wanted to cast the main players in the general election. And I was pretty resistant at first, and after a few more conversations, I think I dutifully acquiesced, and then I kind of went about it in the most child-of-immigrants way, where I, like, hired a dialect coach, and I requested a screen test where I tried out different contact lenses because I felt like so much of JD Vance's sort of visual eeriness was in his eyes, and I was like, we have to get that down. And then we tried facial hair options. And, you know, I took it as, like, a serious charge, which may or may not have been the right way to go about it, but it's been an interesting journey.

GROSS: It's funny that you hired a voice coach 'cause, like, JD Vance is, like, so filled with anger.

YANG: Right.

GROSS: And when I hear you, you sound, like, really bitchy.

(LAUGHTER)

YANG: I can't help it. I think that's my own little wink through, like, whatever characterization I try to, like, cover the self with. Like, you know, I do have to say, like, I am - I don't have the impressionists ear the way that someone like James Austin Johnson does, who every time he approaches someone, as in he does an impression of them, it's just this exquisite pastiche of all of their qualities. Dialed up to this very caricaturish, you know, maximum, but I feel like - I don't know. I kind of maybe got overwhelmed by it.

GROSS: When you were in high school, you got a senior superlative - something I've never heard of before - as most likely to be on "SNL." So what is a senior superlative? But the main question is, did you want to be on "SNL" when you were in high school, and did everybody know that?

YANG: Well, a senior superlative, just like your most likely tos. Most likely to...

GROSS: Most likely to succeed?

YANG: ...Succeed. Yeah, yeah, those things. And then I think our class kind of embellished the language a little bit. Instead of, like, class clown, they put the verbiage of most likely to be on "SNL." And it was - I think it's totally incidental. It's, like, their way of calling me, like, a hammy kid, basically, which I was. I never, ever, ever set my sights on "SNL." But I was only the most enthusiastic fan. I would bring VHS tapes to school to, like, put them in - I mean, Kids, there were these things called tapes. And, you know...

GROSS: (Laughter).

YANG: ...You would play them. And I would just bring those in and just, like, show people when there was, like, a substitute teacher in class one day or something. Well, like, hey, I brought, like, this past weekend's "SNL," if people want to watch it. And somehow these teachers let me play it, like, a handful of times, and I can't believe I got away with it. But I was just very granularly obsessed with comedy and with "SNL," especially.

GROSS: Something else in high school, you were named homecoming king. So I figure either it was a very gay friendly school or you were very successful at staying in the closet.

YANG: (Laughter) I would say yes to the first part, definitely no to the second part. Not successful at all. I think there's this, like, common trend among a lot of queer men my age who end up in some, like, communications-forward position, whether it's, like, they are the hosts of shows, or they're actors, or they're writers, or they, you know, are somewhat public-facing. Like, a lot of us did the morning announcements, and a lot of us were in the homecoming court. And so I don't know what that says about a certain type of, like, gregarious gay male growing up in the aughts, but I feel proud to be in that cohort of people. This is a thing. I'm telling you, Terry.

GROSS: OK.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Tell us what your auditions were like 'cause I know you auditioned several times for "Saturday Night Live."

YANG: Yeah. I mean, I shudder to watch them now, and they even did this thing where they were making documentaries in the lead-up to the 50th anniversary, and they played my auditions to me and film my reactions. And it's - I'm stomping my foot. Like, I have this visceral response to, like, not wanting to watch, like, that version of myself, like, the person who before he went down the chute of working at "SNL" had no idea what the show was looking for. And I think I sort of have to re evaluate that because that person is special. Like, he has something. He has gumption to, like, just throw whatever at the wall and see what sticks. Whereas now I feel, like, so much more prudent in my ideas. I have fewer of them, it seems. But back then, just because it was - your first round was five minutes of characters and impressions, and my manager at the time, said, you should put in a tape. And I - on a lark, I said, sure. I mean, they'll never hire an effeminate Asian man for that show. And I just called up my buddy one day, Doug Wydeck (ph). I went to his basement in Williamsburg, and I put on all these different wigs and hats and just ran through five minutes of characters and impressions. Michiko Kakutani was one of my impressions. It was really esoteric. I was like, there's no...

GROSS: That's what I was going to say. Like, she's the - she was the New York Times book critic. How many people really know who the New York Times book critic is?

YANG: Right. And I think I was probably leaning into it or counting on it being like, OK, the joke here is so hyper-specific that at least you know, like, as an audience, like, what the perspective is. The point of view is, like, OK, this is someone who, you know, is going to use the word limbed in an impression. You know what I mean? And I actually met her recently. And she's...

GROSS: Oh, did she know?

YANG: Oh, she knew. And she was so - I was so starstruck to meet her, and she's just this really sweet, lovely person who, for a long time, like, commanded the way books were sold. I mean, it was just incredible to meet her. And, you know, we talked about this and, I mean, my portrayal of her because she had only been photographed twice before, and there was no, like, vocal recording of her speaking, like, I took that as an open interpretation of, like, what she would sound like. So I, like, really leaned into, like, this, like, aggressive, bullish person who was just tearing into Toni Morrison for whatever reason, you know...

(LAUGHTER)

YANG: Even though that's, you know, not what she did, but I just had fun with it, and, you know, it was me, like, calling Jonathan Franzen a hack or something. Like, these are things that, like, Michiko Kakutani would never have done. And I cleared all these rounds, and then auditioned the first year in 2017, made it all the way to the Lorne meetings, did a callback where they tell you, OK, now come up with five more minutes of new material. And it's like when an artist releases a sophomore album. It's like, well, the first album is what their whole life had led up to at that point. And now you have to, like, ask them to do something new in terms of output, and, you know, I had to really dip back into the well and there wasn't much water in there. And so it was multiple rounds of that, you know, one year of not getting it, coming back another summer, doing another few rounds and finally getting hired to write there, which was very fun.

GROSS: I think, like, some of the cast members have a hard time at first figuring out who they are on the show, where they fit in, what kind of characters they'll be best for, getting people to write for them, and write in ways that the new cast members approve of. What was it like for you figuring out, like, where did you fit in? What sketches would you be best at? Who were you on the show?

YANG: Yeah. I think my first season of writing on the show was probably so helpful in terms of understanding all of these nonverbal cues. And I think learning the ropes and taking my lumps that first season where, you know, as a writer, you would have to sit next to Lorne each week and have him give notes on your sketch at dress rehearsal. You know, you really develop this internal sense of, OK, I understand how the show works in this very underpinned way. That instinct will sort of guide you towards how to succeed on the show on both your own terms and on the writers' and Lorne's terms, and on the audience's terms, most importantly. And I really credit that first season that Lorne has told me since, like, was the intention. He was just like, I wasn't going to put you out there without a paddle, like, you're going to be scrutinized in a very different way, and I was not going to set you up for failure.

GROSS: Right. So, in one of the 50th anniversary shows, you and Andy Samberg do a number that's about how everyone at "SNL" has anxiety and we also have IBS, irritable bowel syndrome.

YANG: (Laughter).

GROSS: And I believe that that could be literally true. So how do you deal with your anxiety when the show is in season? And, you know, it seemed like there's at least one, maybe two nights that are basically all-nighters, and then you have to perform live, and you never know if your sketch is going to be cut or shortened at the last minute. It feels like a lot, although...

YANG: Yeah.

GROSS: ...It's not on every week, so there are, you know, a reasonable number of breaks.

YANG: Sure. And those breaks are still not enough, I would say. Like, I think everyone has this shared thing when we are in the season where we come back from those breaks and we're like, gosh, I was just getting back on my feet. And here I am, like, about to get knocked down again. Like, it is a very - no matter what, no matter if you're succeeding or if you are struggling in some way, which is the universal "SNL" experience as Andy really poetically rendered in that sketch. Like, I think that you just have to develop some kind of emotional regulation, and that is a very hard thing to ask comedians to do. Part of the reason why we become comedians is because we are dysregulated emotionally, right? And, like, our way of sort of exercising something or just rationalizing something that we're going through is to do comedy about it. But on top of the generative thing that we're doing at "SNL," which is to write comedy, like, it is just a very high-stake situation that I wasn't sure for a while, like, what the upside was. I was like, OK, it's great that I'm on TV, but also, like, I have no personal life. I don't see my friends. You know, I can't take opportunities that come during the season. Like, I don't know how this balances out. And then when we were doing the culture awards this year, our director was Liz Patrick, who's also our wonderful director at "SNL." A lot of "SNL" alums in terms of the production staff and the producers and the writers were from "SNL" around the time that I was there. And I realized in the weeks leading up to the award show, I was like, oh, this is what "SNL" gives you in terms of, like, a boon or something. Like, you know how to handle a million different stimuli from a million different directions, and you can manage that.

GROSS: So, we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you.

My guest is Bowen Yang. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performance as a cast member of "Saturday Night Live." He also co-hosts the podcast "Las Culturistas." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bowen Yang. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performances as a cast member on "SNL." He also co-hosts the podcast "Las Culturistas."

GROSS: So this has been a pretty tumultuous time for you because you're nominated for an Emmy. The "Las Culturistas" Culture Awards were just shown, you know, in August, early in August. And right after that, you flew to China, to, like, inner Mongolia, where your father is from. So how are you feeling?

YANG: I feel like the tumult has subsided. And I know that that is - sort of in horror movie rules, that just means that it is about to come up again.

(LAUGHTER)

YANG: Like, you know, the killer is going to jump out the pantry or something, not that there's a killer. Like, you know, don't drop your shoulders just yet. I mean, it's fine. I think I'm a little bit wired for it, which is not necessarily healthy, but I feel OK. I mean, the China trip was really special and not what I expected. And it was a trip that we took all the time growing up. And then, since my sister and I have gone off to college - and this was about 17 years ago - like, those trips have been a little bit more infrequent. But it is always just a really nice check-in with myself, with my family, obviously. And I really cherish those journeys.

GROSS: I want to get back to that in a few minutes.

YANG: Sure.

GROSS: First, I want to talk with you about your "Las Culturistas" podcast with Matt Rogers. So to give a sense of what the podcast is like or what it was originally supposed to be like,

YANG: Yeah.

GROSS: I'm going to play the beginning of the first episode, which is from March 19

YANG: brother,

GROSS: 2016. And the subject of this episode was the Grammys. So it's you and Matt Rogers.

YANG: Aye, aye, aye.

(SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "LAS CULTURISTAS")

BOWEN YANG AND MATT ROGERS: Ding-dong.

(LAUGHTER)

MATT ROGERS: Hello, everybody. This is the "Las Culturistas" podcast. I'm Matt Rogers.

YANG: I'm Bowen Yang. And, yes, we are "Las Culturistas." What that means is we are your culture consultants.

ROGERS: We are out here to improve culture. We're here to heighten culture. We're here to talk about the big cultural events that you see happening on your television screens, on your laptops, on your mobile phones.

YANG: Oh, on so many. We're in a three-screen world.

ROGERS: Yeah, let me tell you.

YANG: Oh, what am I saying (laughter)

(SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "LAS CULTURISTAS")

YANG: Let me tell you, look, Matt put this very eloquently a few moments ago off the record. He said we're going to attack culture.

ROGERS: Yeah.

YANG: We're going to improve culture.

ROGERS: Yeah.

YANG: And we're going to irrigate.

ROGERS: This attack on your senses right now, what this is, is Matt and Bowen's "Las Culturistas" podcast. What we're doing is we're talking about big things that you've seen, like the Grammys.

YANG: Yes.

ROGERS: The Oscars.

YANG: The Super Bowl.

ROGERS: The Super Bowl. Maybe some debates happening, election season. We're talking about big, big, big a** events that you're all talking about.

YANG: Yes

ROGERS: We're talking about them, too. And let me tell you, we've got notes.

YANG: We've got notes, honey. We've got some feedback that is constructive and sometimes destructive.

ROGERS: Oh, absolutely.

YANG: Honey, we are not limiting this to events either.

ROGERS: I don't think so honey.

YANG: (Groaning).

(SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "LAS CULTURISTAS")

YANG: We are going after some cultural institution.

ROGERS: Yeah. Like, today, we're really coming for the music industry.

YANG: Honey, the music industry is a monolith.

ROGERS: Yeah.

YANG: And we're not afraid...

ROGERS: I'm not afraid

YANG: ...To speak truth to power.

Aye, aye, aye. I mean, my voice is at a whole different octave. Wow.

GROSS: I heard you groaning (laughter).

YANG: I was groaning.

GROSS: So what else were you groaning about?

YANG: Well, this is very similar to when they were showing me my audition from, you know, eight years ago. This is the thing. Like, these are all a series of larks. Like, you know, we never thought that the podcast would get any listenership. I mean, this kind of summarizes the whole premise of the podcast. It's just two friends talking to each other. It was just an excuse for Matt and I to have a playdate every week. We pitched this network all these ideas that were very high-concept. We settled on the one that was the lowest-concept, which was just a pop culture podcast, two people talking.

But we just somehow watched it grow, and the same goes for the awards. So the awards kind of budded out of this one summer, I think, in 2021, when we didn't have a guest booked that week. And that was not a common thing at the time. And so we just kind of made a stream of consciousness list of nominees and categories for theoretical "Las Culturistas" Culture Awards. And this awards things from all over the tapestry of human experience from theme park attractions to breakfast foods, to scenes from '90s television, to clothing.

Like, you know, it was just completely maximalist and global and overwhelming. It's meant to be nonsensical, almost. And we put that out, announced that we were going to declare the winners, didn't happen. And so then one year we threw an outdoor show, and it was free. We were overwhelmed by the crowds. We had to turn people away. And so then from that first year, we were like, OK, so the goal is to get this televised so that everyone can, you know, opt into this.

GROSS: All right, time to introduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bowen Yang. And he's nominated for an Emmy for his performances as a cast member of "SNL." And he also cohosts the podcast "Las Culturistas." We'll be right back after this break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF LENNY PICKETT AND UMO JAZZ ORCHESTRA'S "ALEX FOSTER")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Bowen Yang. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performances as a cast member of "SNL." He also co-hosts the podcast "Las Culturistas" with Matt Rogers. They just held their annual "Las Culturistas" Culture Awards, a satirical awards ceremony with genuine celebrities. It was telecast for the first time and is now streaming on Peacock. It's really funny. Bowen has also starred in the films "Fire Island," this year's remake of "The Wedding Banquet," and he was in the film adaptation of "Wicked."

This is a question you often ask people on the podcast. Like, what was the moment that they realized that, like, culture was their thing? So, how did you become obsessed with pop culture?

YANG: I was obsessed with pop culture as a closeted Canadian kid who then moved to the States and had to sort of reacclimate to this new culture. It was this big shock to move from Quebec to Colorado where I was speaking primarily French at school and mandarin in the house. And then, you know, suddenly, I had to fast track to English. I mean, pop culture was this expedited way for me to, like, get on board with what people were talking about at school, like, and what people were talking about at a birthday party or, like, the shows that we would watch when we would have play dates or something like that, you know? I say this. Like, "SNL" was this crash course in pop culture for me every week. But, you know, the thing that made me love culture was the way that it gets digested, which happens to be what "SNL" kind of is. And, you know, I was going to bring this up earlier when we were talking about the awards. Like, Matt and I, we get this question asked, you know, in this inverted way. When we're talking to people, they ask us, What was the culture that made you guys say culture was for you? And then both of our answers are the 1998 Oscars, where, you know, it was Billy Crystal hosting. It was James Cameron doing I'm the king of the world. You know, it was just the culmination of the year, which felt dominated by "Titanic." And it was all funneled into this one night where Billy Crystal was doing song and dance numbers and where the pageantry of showbiz was kind of, like, almost grotesquely on display.

GROSS: (Laughter).

YANG: And so, like, that was just - it was intoxicating to a child. And it kind of is this, you know, poetic thing where we've gotten to do, like, our version of that in our adulthood.

GROSS: Did you have to hide any of your pop culture from your parents 'cause they would have considered it, like, too adult or just too, like, immoral?

YANG: Right. I didn't have to too much because "SNL" was hard to explain to them, or they would just be like, OK, well, at least he's staying in on a Saturday night, you know, like, they didn't mind that too much. I mean, the only thing that I ever had to hide was a hardcover copy of "The Sisterhood Of The Traveling Pants" because it was my sister's book. And obviously, she was allowed to like that, but it was cultural contraband for a teenage boy like me to have any interest in that. And so I just remember loving reading those books and then hiding it under my bed. You know, it was - like, that was the kind of cultural smuggling that I was doing at my own house.

GROSS: As if it was pornography.

YANG: As if it was pornography. And by the way, I mean, wow. Pre-smartphone days, I was having a sexual awakening to classical art books, and I highly recommend today's youth to go about it the same way because you were learning about art and you were, you know, figuring yourself out. And I don't think the kids have that anymore.

GROSS: What were a couple of the TV shows or music or books that really meant the most to you in your formative years?

YANG: I mean, I would say "SNL" and "Mad TV," for sure. I was really big into "Grey's Anatomy," "Desperate Housewives." This was, like, the really imperial phase of ABC prime time television. You know, I've said in the past, Sandra Oh kind of confused me occupationally because I was like, I'm obsessed with her. I guess I'll become a doctor. And then after graduating with a chemistry degree in premed, I was like, wait, I made a mistake. I actually wanted to be someone who was on TV. And so, you know, that was...

GROSS: Yeah.

YANG: ...Such a weird, like, gargling of the signal. But, I mean, you know, I loved those shows. I loved being more curious about the craft of writing because, you know, there would be like, Shonda Rhimes podcasts even back then about, like, this is what we were thinking and going through in the writers' room for this episode. I mean, it opened the door to all of these other particulars about how TV was made. And, I mean, I was watching "The Simpsons" and "Seinfeld" on syndication, and I feel like I cherish this, like, three S' thing that a lot of, like, comedy nerds sort of hone in on, which is "Simpson," "Seinfeld," "SNL." And, you know, those writers kind of rotate - or used to rotate around those shows in the '90s. And, you know, I kept tabs on, like, who wrote where? And I just really kind of, like, nerded out on, like, the brainier aspects of comedy, which I'm lucky that I was exposed to at a certain age.

GROSS: Let me reintroduce you again.

If you're just joining us, my guest is Bowen Yang. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performances as a cast member of "SNL." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF TONY Z SONG, "IT'S ALL THE SAME")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bowen Yang. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performances as a cast member of "SNL." He also co-hosts the podcast "Las Culturistas."

You were wondering lately if you'd gotten too personal on the podcast, "Las Culturistas," in which you talk about pop culture, and you and your co-host Matt Rogers share stories about your lives. I'd love to hear how you draw and then redraw the line between what's public and what's private. Like, I know for myself, I'm always questioning myself before an - before I get interviewed, like, what do I want to share, and what's really too private to share? And I know the interview will probably be more interesting if I share more, but part of me just wants to stay private, which is strange, considering that as the interviewer, I want people to tell me anything that they're comfortable telling me. The more the...

YANG: Right.

GROSS: ...Better. So, you know, as somebody who is an increasingly public figure, does the line keep shifting? And where is it now?

YANG: Whether or not I want the line to shift, I think it's not relevant anymore. I think people have probably learned most of what there is to learn about me.

GROSS: So it's too late (laughter).

YANG: It's too late, Terry. And so you can probe away. I mean, now, like, I have these light red lines, these, like, pink lines on, like, what I don't want to talk about just in any kind of public interview or any kind of public way where I'm like, oh, I think people have heard about my experience with, let's say, conversion therapy a million times. Or people know about the struggle I was going through when I was shooting "Wicked," in terms of the travel back and forth. And mostly I'm concerned with, like, OK, how many times have I, like, played this track? You know what I mean? I don't ever want to be on a loop. And that is the thing that I think maybe entraps some people, certainly myself.

If I keep playing the same thing over and over again out loud or in my head, I feel like I get a little bit caged by it. Like, it calcifies around me in a way that makes me go, well, this is the definitive thing about me. The definitive thing about me is that I have mental health struggles. Who doesn't? The definitive thing about me is that I, you know, don't know what the line is in terms of sharing my personal life even, not to get too meta about it. But I feel like I just - and you're so good at this, too. It's like, we just want to excavate something and peel back something that is somewhat new, that hasn't really been exposed before. And I think I'm just in search of that constantly. It's not that I don't want to talk about things. It's that I want to figure out what else there is.

GROSS: But there's value in it. There's value in sharing.

YANG: I think so.

GROSS: I mean, that's what I believe as an interviewer, even though I don't always come across that way as an interviewee. But through comedy, through people confessing to their own, like, neuroses and fears and vulnerabilities, it's like, oh, God, I have company (laughter).

YANG: Right. Of course.

GROSS: And I think that's how everybody feels. And so, you know, I appreciate that sharing. It's clarifying and hopeful.

YANG: Yeah, it's good.

GROSS: So let's talk a little bit about your life. And obviously, share what you're comfortable sharing.

YANG: Of course.

GROSS: And I don't want to push you beyond that. So your parents emigrated from China, first to Australia, where your father got his degree in mining explosives. I didn't even - never occurred to me - something I've never thought about is, like, who are the people who deal with the mining explosives?

YANG: Right.

GROSS: I've just never, ever thought about that.

YANG: (Laughter).

GROSS: But apparently your father is an expert in that. Anyways, then they moved to Canada and then to Colorado.

YANG: I always think about how we lucked out moving here, here being the States, in '98 without much friction, I think through a lot of different access points and luck, like, got our green card within a couple of years. And then they naturalized once, you know, they hit that mark. And so, you know, we've kind of cleared all these stage gates in terms of our citizenship, and it's remarkable. I remember one year my parents had, you know, their friends visit from China, who were interested in potentially emigrating. And this was, I think, 2011.

And my parents were both busy, so then they asked if I could drive this family to this immigration lawyer. So I did, and I sat in with them on the meeting. And it was kind of this heartbreaking moment where this lawyer, this Chinese immigrant lawyer, immigration lawyer said, it's just not going to happen right now unless you have this much money to have, you know, an investment immigration visa. Like, I mean, she just laid out all of the bureaucratic obstacles that kind of - in the room, I could sense, like, the hope sort of, like, leaving this family's, like, consideration. It just felt so heartbreaking. And I feel like, I don't know, that stayed with me. And it makes me certainly cherish and not take for granted the journey that they went on and how lucky we are to have ended up where we are.

I mean, we're just upper middle class immigrant family. And the other sort of existential sort of wrinkle in this is that, like, as the younger of two kids, if my parents had stayed in China, then I would not have been born because of the one child policy. And so there are all these different right place, right time scenarios in my mind about, like, wow, like, I am very, very fortunate to be where I am where none of it would've materialized had this little butterfly effect thing not happened.

GROSS: You recently traveled to Inner Mongolia, where your father's family is from. And he grew up there, right?

YANG: Yes.

GROSS: Yeah. So describe, like, what it was like when he was growing up and what it looks like now.

YANG: It's incredibly rural, still is. I mean, there's been a lot of urban development there, but my dad was the first in his family to go to college and right at the tail end of the Cultural Revolution, you know, in the '80s, he was in the first class of Chinese youth with my mother to be able to, you know, study abroad and, you know, get their degrees elsewhere. And they were allowed to leave the country. And so there was this big wave of immigration out of China in the '80s. So my mom is from a city in Liaoning, which is a province north of North Korea.

And then Inner Mongolia, where my dad's from, is a misnomer. It's not in Mongolia, but it's the province that is south of Mongolia that borders it. So my dad grew up in a family of subsistence farmers, just growing potatoes and canola and whatever the weather allowed. And, you know, a town of, I would say, 200 people. I mean, it was just an incredibly different life. And so even going back this summer, right after the Culture Awards, the day after the Culture Awards, was such - I can't imagine a bigger whiplash.

You know, my dad showed me all of these things that he built into the house, these little closets, like, where, you know, the fires would go to heat the beds. Like, all of these incredibly pretechnological things. You know, they were a happy family of farmers who had no access with urban life or any greater life outside of their township. It's pretty remarkable to think about. I get kind of overwhelmed at it, honestly. You know, it was kind of refreshing, I mean, it really was, just to, like, go from this place where the value system was in comedy and in pop culture and in, you know...

GROSS: Glitz and glamour.

YANG: Glitz and glamour and fame. And, you know, even though we're poking fun at it, like, it was still buying into the system, right? And so, to go from there to China, where no one had heard - no one even knows, like, what a red carpet is, you know, like, what that looks like in LA or in the States. I mean, it was just kind of - it gave me so much perspective.

GROSS: So did he remain a mining explosives expert in the U.S.? And did your mother remain OB-GYN? Because that's what she had trained for in China.

YANG: Yes. She was top of her class at, like, you know, this premier medical school in China. And then, you know, it was always a trip, like, going back and having her friends who went to school with her just, like, whisper in my ear, like, you know, if she had stayed, she would be like, the surgeon general. You know, like, it's trippy. And then I think about obviously how, like, that means that I would not be on this planet. You know, it's all these sliding doors. But my dad, you know, has all of these stories of, like, even him moving out of inner Mongolia to the city to go to school. Like, he had $11 in his pocket at the train station, tried fish for the first time at, you know, 22. Like, he was just eating potatoes and lamb for the first 22 years of his life. Like, he just had no concept of, like, how the world was so expansive. Like, to him, his world was just however many miles within the radius of his town. Like, it is this really overwhelming thing that I feel anytime I think about how charmed my own life is. I'm just like, none of this was for granted.

GROSS: So your parents were initially upset you were gay. What was the turning point for them in realizing, like, it's OK?

YANG: Yeah. I think this was more about, like, a concern for how difficult life would be. And I understand...

GROSS: For you?

YANG: ...That perspective. Yeah, for me, I think, once they saw me sort of...

GROSS: Becoming famous?

YANG: Well, yeah, this is, like, the thought experiment that I don't like to have, necessarily. But, I think it was after I was, like, financially stable 'cause I think it was compounded by the fact that I was trying to be a comedian professionally and that I was going on auditions and not booking the parts, which is, you know, so commonplace and it happens more often than not. I think they were just seeing this as, like, oh, no, he's struggling in all these different ways and therefore, we are just worried about him, and it all just, you know, they couldn't tell where one thing ended and another began, right? And so I think once they saw certain dreams come to light, I think that's when they were a little bit more relieved.

GROSS: And maybe when they found what a huge following you had and how much people loved you, that helped too.

YANG: I would always tell my parents, like, you know, I would book sundry jobs on comedy shows here and there, like, hey, Mom, like, I'm on this show called "Broad City," or I'm on this show called "High Maintenance." Just things that New York comedians would book an appearance on, and it was always, like, a very exciting thing. Didn't mean anything to them until Matt and I did a segment of I Don't Think So, Honey on "The Tonight Show." And then my mom went into work the next day and then all of her coworkers were like, you must be so proud that Bowen was on "The Tonight Show" doing comedy, and, oh, my goodness, he was - that was when - it took some sort of external validation through, like, her peers for her to be like, OK, maybe he's going to be OK. And I didn't really have an appreciation for, like, what the proof of concept had to be for her in order for her to feel a little bit more at ease with the idea that I was trying to be in showbiz.

GROSS: You were in the closet, I think, for a good deal of college, in part because your sister was going to NYU, and you were, too, and your sister...

YANG: Yes.

GROSS: ...Was supposed to keep an eye on you. So did you have to suppress some of yourself in order to do that? And what was it like when you came out? And if you did suppress anything, you could just, like, start expressing it instead of suppressing it.

YANG: Both times that I came out to them, it was not really on my terms. Like, the first time in high school was through, you know, the family computer. Remember those? And it was that, you know, my mom had stumbled on, like, a chat window where I was talking about it. And then you fast-forward to college. I had gotten back in the closet after conversion therapy, and then I was in senior year of high school, and I was just at home, and then out of nowhere, my mom had called a little bit distressed - or very distressed, I should say - and was saying how, you know, she would never accept me being gay, and this was not OK and I should fly home and talk it out with her and my father in person. And just one day, it just, like, happened. Like, it's very bizarre. I never had the opt in to just tell someone on my own terms - or not to tell someone, but just to tell my family. And so that's been a thing that I've kind of, like, romanticized as someone who, like, hasn't been able to do that. Like, even in this trip to - on this trip to China, I had hired a tutor in Mandarin to sort of help me with the vocabulary, the literal vocabulary of coming out, and it never came up because I think Chinese social media sort of did it for me. And my uncles and my cousins and my aunts would be like, oh, my gosh, Bowen, you're really blowing up on social media, and the comments are so interesting, and they're really, you know, trying to guess where you're from. But then also, I mean, what they couldn't have missed were the comments that were saying isn't it so funny how butch he is?

GROSS: Right.

YANG: And, you know, like, you know, like, I think it was another don't ask, don't tell thing where they were like, we know. And I had it confirmed by my sister. By the end of the trip, she was like, they know. And I was like, OK, great. And so it's never been through me. I have never worked up the nerve to tell someone in my family. I don't know what the value is on if that's good or bad, you know? I just kind of know that I have not had that experience. And so, therefore, I kind of romanticize that idea.

GROSS: Let me reintroduce you again.

If you're just joining us, my guest is Bowen Yang. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performances as a cast member of "SNL." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF LARY BARILLEAU & THE LATIN JAZZ COLLECTIVE'S "CARMEN'S MAMBO")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bowen Yang. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performances as a cast member of "SNL." He also co-hosts the podcast "Las Culturistas."

So you were in "Wicked."

YANG: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: And I have to say, it's a pretty small part.

YANG: It was small. It was very tiny.

GROSS: Yeah. But "Wicked" means a lot to you. When was the first time you saw "Wicked?" And I assume that was on stage, obviously.

YANG: Yes.

GROSS: What did it - when was the first time you saw it, how old were you, and what did it mean to you? Why did it reach you so deeply?

YANG: So the interesting thing about "Wicked" is that I didn't get to see it until I was well into my adulthood. Like, I was even - gosh, I had this really weird compulsion around, like, not lying, but just, like, embellishing the truth growing up. And it's developed into this thing now where I'm a terrible liar. I can't do it as an adult, as someone in their 30s. But, like, growing up, it was this thing of, like, well, if you didn't see "Wicked," then, like, you have no business being, you know, someone in the - like, a theater kid or - you know what I mean? Like, it was just - when it came out, it was just such a phenomenon.

Around 2003, I was in high school, and I remember going to the library, getting the original Broadway cast recording, and it was life-changing even in that entry point. And the thing that I would embellish, especially around late high school, I was just like, yeah, yeah, I saw, like, the national tour of it. I never did, Terry. I think I just made up this lie because it felt like the right thing to say in order to, like, justify this passion that I had for, like, musical theater.

And I saw it finally for the first time in the West End in London in 2022, I would say, or 2021. Like, it was really crazy how I was like, wow, this is all culminating into this moment where I'm, like, finally seeing this show that has still meant so much to me. And I knew it front to back. And I just remember seeing it for the first time. I saw it with my co-writer at "SNL," Celeste Yim, and they're a playwright. They're a trained playwright. And I turned to them, and I go, wow. Like, this is incredible. Like, theater is, like, the most emotionally immediate form of entertainment, right? Like, and they were like, yeah, I mean, that's the beauty of it. Like, it's just - when Elphaba sings those high notes, like, you feel it in your soul. And so, you know, the first time I saw it, it did mean a lot to me in terms of, like, going through my personal history and being like, why did I, like, feel the need to say that I'd seen this when I didn't have this actual material encounter with it until much later?

GROSS: It was not the answer I was expecting.

YANG: No, I know. It's like, you know, I've shared this, but it's not something that, like, I - it's weird. It's like I don't want it to make it seem like I was - or still am - like, someone who doesn't tell the truth. It was just this thing that I felt the pressure to, like, have some sort of social proof of where I had to be like, yeah, you know, like, I did see it. We were just not a theater-going family. We just didn't have that access. Like, thank goodness for public libraries. Like, I went to the library, and I sought it out, and I kept that CD in my Walkman for weeks. Like, I really ran the overdue charge on it.

GROSS: I just feel like intervening here and saying I think it's really important when it comes to culture to stand up for what you believe in no matter how odd that might seem, do you know what I mean?

YANG: Oh, yeah. Sure.

GROSS: To really endorse the things you love and feel free to criticize the things that you don't and feel honest about saying, no, I didn't have time to see it.

YANG: I love that now. Oh, my goodness. I mean, this is the thing that I delight in now where I'm like, I didn't get a chance to see it, and there's too much stuff, you know what I mean? Like, that is just - that's something we can all agree on. I mean, I think I did have this anxiety growing up around, like, making sure I was on top of everything, that I did see every movie, you know?

GROSS: Well, that's part of the immigrant thing, isn't it?

YANG: Yeah. Totally.

GROSS: Being the child of immigrants, who's also gay. I mean, you had to work to fit in.

YANG: Totally. And it still feels like this is the thing around being obsessed with "The Simpsons" and "Seinfeld" and "SNL" growing up. It was like, it felt like it was the required reading. Like, it felt like there was this syllabus growing up in terms of pop culture. And now, you know, with all of the options for better or for worse, like, you can just sort of chart your own path.

GROSS: Bowen Yang, I'm so glad we finally got to make this happen. We've been trying to get you on for a long time. Thank you so much for coming today. It was really a pleasure.

YANG: This was sublime Thank you, Terry.

GROSS: Bowen Yang is nominated for an Emmy for his performances on "Saturday Night Live." He co-hosts the podcast "Las Culturistas." The satirical "Las Culturistas" Cultural Awards ceremony is streaming on Peacock.

Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Spike Lee. His new film "Highest 2 Lowest" is about a powerful music mogul targeted in a ransom plot who must fight for his family and his legacy. It's a reimagining of Akira Kurosawa's 1963 film "High And Low." He'll talk about the inspiration behind this film and others from his long career. I hope you'll join us.

To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interview, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.