'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. The critically acclaimed and cult favorite series "Yellowjackets" returned to Showtime last week. Today we feature our interview with Melanie Lynskey, one of its stars. In "Yellowjackets," she plays Shauna, one of the survivors of a 1996 plane crash. She was a member of a girls' high school soccer team on its way to the national championships. The plane crashes, and the survivors have to spend over a year in the Canadian wilderness. Viewers slowly learn all the terrible things that the survivors had to do to stay alive. The show goes back and forth, showing the teenagers before and after the crash, as well as in 2021 when the few remaining survivors try to carry on with their lives while still living with the memories of the crash and its aftermath.

Lynskey's first movie role was in Peter Jackson's "Heavenly Creatures" in 1994, playing opposite a pre-Titanic Kate Winslet. Since then, Lynskey has starred in many films and TV roles, including "Up In The Air," "The Informant," "Ever After," "Sweet Home Alabama," "Don't Look Up," "Togetherness," "Mrs. America" and as the next door neighbor on the CBS sitcom "Two And A Half Men." Melanie Lynskey spoke with FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado last year.

Here's a scene from the first episode of "Yellowjackets." It's in the present day, and Melanie Lynskey's character, Shauna, is married with a teenager and living in the same New Jersey town where she grew up. She's at home when a woman claiming to be a reporter approaches her wanting to tell Shauna's story. The reporter is played by Rekha Sharma.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "YELLOWJACKETS")

MELANIE LYNSKEY: (As Shauna Shipman) I know what you want to hear. But the truth is the plane crashed, a bunch of my friends died, and the rest of us starved and scavenged and prayed for 19 months till they finally found us. And that's the end of the story.

REKHA SHARMA: (As Jessica Roberts) And I think we both know there's a bit more to it than that. I can't imagine what you guys went through out there. Nobody can. And that is worth something. It's worth a lot, actually. I can guarantee you a seven-figure book advance right here, right now. We could write it together, but it's your name on the cover.

LYNSKEY: (As Shauna Shipman) Not interested. Sorry.

SHARMA: (As Jessica Roberts) What if I told you the others were?

LYNSKEY: (As Shauna Shipman) Then I would say that you're lying.

SHARMA: (As Jessica Roberts) So you are still in touch.

LYNSKEY: (As Shauna Shipman) I haven't spoken to any of them in years. I would not know how to get hold of them even if I wanted to. I moved on, and I genuinely hope that they were able to do the same. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm...

SHARMA: (As Jessica Roberts) Shauna, this is the kind of money that could change your life. You were an elite athlete - straight A's, early admission to Brown. Is this really how you thought your life was going to turn out? Sorry. I didn't mean to...

LYNSKEY: (As Shauna Shipman) I don't give a [expletive] what you meant, you smug, little b****. You don't know a [expletive] thing about my life.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

ANN MARIE BALDONADO: Melanie Lynskey, welcome to FRESH AIR.

LYNSKEY: Thank you so much for having me. This is amazing.

BALDONADO: The show is about, among other things, friendships between teenage girls, particularly friendships that are pretty toxic. Was that something that appealed to you or a theme you like to explore because you have a lot of, like, flawed, like, toxic relationships in your work?

LYNSKEY: Yeah, I guess I - that's so funny. I mean, it's always more fun to play because there's just so much there when there's drama and there's hurt feelings and upset. I myself - I'm still friends with pretty much everyone I was friends with as a teenager, so I don't really relate personally. My female friends are the most important people in my world. But I do think it's - I love the storytelling, and I love how complex it is in the show. Also, when I was reading the pilot, I just thought, oh, these all feel like fully developed people. None of them are sort of stereotypes. It's not like the brainy one, the slutty one. It's - they're all interesting people who contain multitudes. And that was kind of rare for me to see in the writing of a group of teenage girls.

BALDONADO: Yeah, there is an interesting story about what inspired the show creators to make the series about a group of teenage girls surviving a plane crash. And it has to do with a rumored remake of "Lord Of The Flies." Is that true?

LYNSKEY: I think so. I've heard them tell the story at a panel where they were reading the comments, like, on "Deadline" or something, where people were like, oh, you could never do an all-female "Lord Of The Flies" 'cause what are they going to do, compromise to death? You know, like, all these things about women, these - about women not being vicious, women not being violent, not being willing to do what it takes to survive. And Ashley, who's one of the show creators, was like, well, these people have never met a teenage girl. And then they got inspired to tell this particular story.

BALDONADO: Shauna, the character you play, is very vividly, like, every day, dealing with decisions that she made as a teenager - you know, the feelings she had, the relationships she forged. Do you relate to that? You know, I will say that sometimes, I still feel, like, very connected to the awkward teenager I was. Like, I can still access her. Like, do you relate to kind of what Shauna's going through that way?

LYNSKEY: Yes, very much. I feel the same. I think if you've ever been shy, if you've ever been awkward, it's almost impossible to stop feeling that way. I still have a thing when I'm at work, you know, and I have to eat lunch with a group of people, I still get heart-pounding anxiety about what table do I sit at? Who's going to reject me? Because as a kid, I didn't - you know, we moved around a lot when I was really little. And I didn't have friends, and I just never had a group of people I could sit with at lunch. So I think maybe that's why when - once I did make friends, I was, like, you're with me for life. We're never splitting up. I was obsessively loyal. But yeah, Shauna is really - she has a lot of survivor's guilt, I think, about making it out of that situation, not feeling like an especially good person but having survived and feeling very guilty about that. So that's an interesting thing to play.

BALDONADO: You were born and raised in New Zealand. Can you tell us about where you grew up and what it was like?

LYNSKEY: I grew up in a town called New Plymouth in a province called Taranaki. It's on the west coast of the North Island, and it's kind of provincial, I guess I would say. It's a very beautiful place. There's a volcano, and there's black sand beaches. It's now quite a, like, vibrant, little community. When I was growing up, it wasn't quite as great as it is now.

BALDONADO: When did you realize you wanted to be an actor?

LYNSKEY: When I was really little, like 6, I was so painfully shy, I could not hold a conversation. I was just so shy. And I remember I did this thing that was completely out of character for me, and I auditioned for a play. I just had this feeling. And I didn't get a very big part in the play. But as I was doing it, my couple of little lines, I felt this freedom. I felt this lightness. And I just was like, oh, my gosh, I don't have to be me in these moments. I can just do whatever I want. I can be free. I'm in another person's body. I'm speaking as another person. And I got kind of addicted to it. And then I just did everything. I did plays at church. I did plays at school. I did local theater. And then when I was a teenager, I started to say, well, that's what I want to do for a living. And people just thought it was crazy. That's not really a job, you know? It was really not seen as being, like, a viable career.

BIANCULLI: Melanie Lynskey speaking with FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado last year - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE CURE SONG, "IN BETWEEN DAYS")

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to the interview FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado recorded last year with actress Melanie Lynskey, one of the stars of the Showtime series "Yellowjackets." It's just returned for Season 2.

BALDONADO: Your first big acting role was in the 1994 film "Heavenly Creatures." It was directed by Peter Jackson - you know, "Lord Of The Rings," the Beatles movie "Get Back" Peter Jackson. It was an early film of his. And you co-star with Kate Winslet, and it was her first big movie, too. It's about two girls in the 1950s who are best friends, who fall in love and end up murdering your character's mother. It's based on a true story. I want to play a quick scene. At this point in the movie, the two girls are about to be separated because Kate Winslet's character is moving abroad, leaving with members of her family. The girls want to stay together even though they're just teenagers. And they're trying to find ways to do this. And in this scene, your character is arguing with her mother. And we also hear your character's voiceover. And the actual voiceovers were all pulled from the real girl, the real Pauline's diaries. Let's take a listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "HEAVENLY CREATURES")

LYNSKEY: (As Pauline Parker) The Hulmes will look after me. They want me to live with them.

SARAH PEIRSE: (As Honora Parker) Don't be so ridiculous. You're our daughter. You belong here with us.

LYNSKEY: (As Pauline Parker) I belong with Deborah. We're going to South Africa.

PEIRSE: (As Honora Parker) You're not going anywhere. You're 15 years old, Yvonne.

LYNSKEY: (As Pauline Parker) You have to let me go.

PEIRSE: (As Honora Parker) We'll talk about this when you've calmed down.

LYNSKEY: (As Pauline Parker) I felt thoroughly depressed and even quite seriously considered committing suicide. Life seemed so much not worth the living and death such an easy way out.

PEIRSE: (As Honora Parker) Love, you can still write to each other.

LYNSKEY: (As Pauline Parker) Anger against Mother boiled up inside me, as it is she who was one of the main obstacles in my path. Suddenly, a means of ridding myself of this obstacle occurred to me. If she were to die...

BALDONADO: That's a scene from "Heavenly Creatures." How did you get the part in this film?

LYNSKEY: It is so strange to hear that (laughter). It's been so long.

BALDONADO: So long.

LYNSKEY: I just sound like a baby. They came to my high school. There was just one day. Somebody said, oh, some people are here auditioning for a movie. And I thought, oh, this is a good thing to put on my application to drama school, to say I auditioned for a movie, so I have that experience. I don't know what I was thinking. But they were taking people two at a time into a spare room at the school. And they didn't want to show anyone a script or anything like that, so they just had us improvise. And I was with my friend Susie, Susie Schwier (ph). And we just improvised a few scenes together. And we, at the time, were in a dramatic improv class that we did every single Friday night. So we were used to it. It was, you know, kind of second nature for us.

And we were so excited afterwards. It was so much fun. And we couldn't go back to school. So we, like, took off for the rest of the afternoon and went and sat in the cemetery that was next to the school. And I remember Susie saying, you got that movie. They're going to give you that part. And I was like, don't be crazy. That's not how it works. It's a movie, you know? And she said, no, I could tell by how they were looking at you. And then I had to do another very long audition. I'd got flown to Christchurch, where they were filming. Peter showed me Kate Winslet's audition tape and said, this is how good you have to be. This is a professional actress from England who we've found. And she's this good. And I said, all right. Let me give it a try. And I did another audition, and I got the job. It was, really, a very, very lucky thing to have happen.

BALDONADO: Well, it's interesting that your career started with this - you know, we didn't call it toxic friendship back then, but, you know, it was this toxic friendship between teenagers that leads to murder. And I remember seeing this movie at the time and loving it because it was about these girls. It was dark. You know, it was a different take on an adolescent girl's story. What was it like making this movie that was pretty dark? You know, it's - creepy is not - dark is kind of the right word - particularly at such a young age, as a young teen?

LYNSKEY: I wasn't a very light teenager. I was quite sort of depressed a lot of the time. I was - there was a lot going on in my life and my head. So it was actually an incredible experience to get to go to work and learn how to channel my actual emotions into acting and kind of free yourself from them. It can be very cathartic going through things in a performance.

And, I mean, to be working with somebody like Peter Jackson, who I understood at the time was a great director - he's so meticulous. You know, some takes we would do 25 times. And the learning I got to do - they gave me a free day where I got to learn how to hit a mark, how to not look at the camera, how to find your light, you know, things - just technical things. And what a gift. Like, it just took all the nervousness away when we did get into the acting part of it. And they had a coach on set for me who was tremendously helpful in helping me access the emotion and then, at the end of the day, let go of it so I didn't go home and just cry my eyes out all night. It was a very - I just feel so fortunate to have had that experience. It was pretty incredible.

BALDONADO: Well, what happened after you made the movie? Was it hard to go back to normal life? Or did you want to keep acting?

LYNSKEY: I did. I really wanted to keep acting. And I think - I understand what everybody was doing. But everybody around me, the, you know, people making the movie, were very, very worried that I would, you know, suddenly be like, this is my life now. And they knew it wouldn't be easy for me. It was 1993 when we made the film, and I was kind of a chubby, shy New Zealand girl, you know? There's just not roles out there for someone - well, at that time, there was nothing for someone who looked like me. And they were really nervous. They were nervous that they had ruined my life.

And I just remember over and over again, like, I would be so excited. I would finish a scene, and I would be so filled with joy. And they'd be like, uh-oh, she's got the bug. And I was like, well, yes, I do. This is all I've ever wanted to do. It was hard, but I didn't really have - you know, I didn't have an agent. I didn't have anybody wanting to represent me. So it's not like I had other options. I just went back to high school and finished high school.

BALDONADO: Yeah. I could understand - like, the people who made the film, it's like - they put you through, like, a great experience but, like, with this heavy material and then showed you kind of this way of life. And then I could understand how they'd be protective of you and not want you to get hurt.

LYNSKEY: Yeah. They just were like, oh, God, please don't let us be the ones who lead her into a life of misery. And I don't know what else they were thinking. But at the same time, you know, Kate was already a professional actress. She lived by herself in London. She was working steadily. And so for her, it was more of a stepping stone. It was her first movie. And she's beautiful, and she's English. And, you know, she was - started getting scripts, like, before the movie had come out. She got a very high-powered agent. And it was a really, really different experience.

And I think I understood that because I under - I was in awe of her for the whole production and understood I was not at that level, and I had not done the work that she had done. But at the same time, it's hard to have nothing, you know, have everybody be like, good job and now, you know, return to normal and then see somebody just, like, take off in the way that she did. It was a strange mixture of, like, pride and excitement for her and then kind of shame. Like, I felt like if I was prettier, if I was better, if I - any number of things. I just thought, like, I wish I had what it took to also be in that position.

BALDONADO: A few years later - or maybe it was many years later - you moved to LA to become an actress. You've talked about how rough it can be to be a young actor. What was tough about it for you? Like, you worked throughout, but what was most difficult?

LYNSKEY: It was difficult hearing all the things that you weren't. And it would change from job to job. You know, oh, they're looking for somebody who's skinnier. You know, in the '90s, in the early 2000s, nobody had any issues telling you what was wrong with you physically. And that wasn't very fun. And then it was mostly a feeling of being appraised and falling short, again and again, that I didn't like. And then some of the stuff I was going out for was just not challenging, not interesting. Some of the stuff my agents were asking me to go and audition for was, like, outright offensive, like the fat friend, you know? I was like, I'm not going to do that part. I hate that this part exists. You know, you got to stop sending me scripts where there's a lonely girl eating a chocolate bar on the outskirts of the group. Like, I don't - I think it's kind of evil. So there was a lot of that kind of thing that I didn't like.

BIANCULLI: We've been listening to the conversation FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado recorded last year with actress Melanie Lynskey, one of the stars of the Showtime drama series "Yellowjackets." The show just returned for its second season. After a break, we'll hear about another series about to embark on a Season 2, the Apple TV+ musical comedy series "Schmigadoon!" in a conversation with one of its creators, Cinco Paul. And after that, I'll review the new season, which I love. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NEVER TEAR US APART")

PALOMA FAITH: (Singing) Don't ask me what you know is true. Don't have to tell you I love your precious heart. I, I was standing. You were there. Two worlds collided. And they could never tear us apart.
DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, in for Terry Gross. "Schmigadoon!" the TV series that is a loving parody of stage and screen musicals of a bygone era, returns for Season 2 next week. I'll have a review of it later in the show. But first, let's listen to Terry's 2021 interview with Cinco Paul, who wrote all the songs for "Schmigadoon!" He also co-created and co-wrote the series. Along with his writing partner Ken Daurio, he wrote the animated films "Despicable Me," "The Secret Life Of Pets" and the Dr. Seuss adaptations "Horton Hears A Who" and "The Lorax."

"Schmigadoon!" streams on Apple TV+. It stars Cecily Strong and Keegan-Michael Key as a couple who try to repair their relationship by taking a hike in the woods. They get lost, cross over a bridge and suddenly find themselves in a small town called Schmigadoon, which looks like a stage or movie set from the early 20th century. The women are wearing prairie dresses with long petticoats, and the men are dressed like they're in a barbershop quartet. It turns out that in this town, life is a musical. People sing their feelings and dance, too.

This is initially charming for the Cecily Strong character, but Keegan-Michael Key's character hates musicals. Soon they realize they're trapped in a musical. And like it or not, their conversations will be interrupted by people breaking out into song. In this scene, they've just entered Schmigadoon and are totally disoriented. When the townspeople break out into song, see if you know which musical inspired this particular number.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #1: (As characters, singing) Schmigadoon, where the sun shines bright from July to June, and the air's as sweet as a macaroon - Schmigadoon. Schmigadoon, where it's warm and safe as a new cocoon, and our hearts all glow like a harvest moon - Schmigadoon. Schmigadoon, where the men are men, and the cows are cows, and the farmers smile as they push their plows, and the trees are tall, and we call it Schmigadoon. Our schoolmarm is Emma Tate. She helps our kids to punctuate.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing) Still unmarried at 28.

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #1: (As characters, singing) In Schmigadoon. Farmer McDonough craved a son...

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Cinco Paul, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for creating this series (laughter).

CINCO PAUL: Oh (laughter), thank you for having me.

GROSS: How did you come up with the idea of a musical about people trapped in a musical set in the early 20th century?

PAUL: Well, it's kind of crazy. I had the idea for this almost 25 years ago, and it was while I was watching the movie "An American Werewolf In London," of all things - one of my favorite movies. And it opens with two friends hiking through the wilderness, and they're hiking over the countryside. And I suddenly thought, wow, the opening to this is very much like the opening to "Brigadoon." And then I thought, what if these two modern guys, instead of stumbling on a town that has a werewolf, stumbled on a town that was in a musical?

And that was the germ of the idea, but I didn't really know what to do with it. So it was one of those that I just filed away. But what really cracked it for me was, oh, instead of two friends, it should be a couple so that it is more of a romantic comedy, and it can be more about, what does love mean? What's true love really mean? I think that's why for 25 years nothing happened with it because it was - it needed that addition to really crack it.

GROSS: So the Cecily Strong character loves musicals. The Keegan-Michael Key character hates musicals. Why did you want him to hate musicals?

PAUL: Well, I thought it was really important. I mean, first of all, it's really funny to have someone who hates musicals be stuck in a musical, but also for him to be the eyes and ears of the people, unlike me, who don't love musicals. And in many ways that was Ken, and in many ways, it's my wife, you know, that...

GROSS: Oh, boy. You're trapped.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: I'll tell you, we - Ken and I, you know, played music all the time when we were writing and whatever musical theater song would somehow pop up in my mix, he would say, skip.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: He was not a fan. He's become a little more of a fan. And, you know, I wouldn't say my wife hates musicals, but she does not, you know, embrace them in the way that I do. So it was really important for the show to have that perspective.

GROSS: Some musicals have really corny scenes in them, and the kind of scene that always bores me is the picnic scene where it's like, this was a real nice clambake. I'm really glad we came. It's like, can we skip that? Can we skip that and get to the good stuff? And, you know, even, like, operas have, like, songs like that where there's, you know, like, a festival or, you know, a picnic or something. And, like, those are usually boring, too. And I never really understand the function that they serve. And you kind of have a song parodying that called "Corn Puddin'."

PAUL: Yes.

GROSS: And so the reason why they're singing about corn pudding is that it's their first morning in town, and they're sitting on the porch and about to have breakfast, and they're asked if they want some corn pudding, and they don't even know what corn pudding is. And then the town just starts singing about how great corn pudding is. So I'd like you to talk a little bit about what you think of those moments in musicals where you have to sing about food or a picnic or a clambake.

PAUL: Yeah, I mean, "Corn Puddin'" came out of - initially I was thinking, what is the song that is most going to annoy Keegan's character?

GROSS: (Laughter).

PAUL: What would be the worst possible song to subject him to, you know? And it's just, oh, a song just about food and "Corn Puddin'" suddenly came to me is just that it's kind of the perfect representation of these sort of songs like - it's a real nice clambake. Like, who cares? Like, you know...

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: ...The songs really should move the story forward in some way. And I think the worst example is "Shipoopi" from "Music Man," which is - it brings everything to a grinding halt. And then this Marcellus character is just singing this nonsense song that has nothing to do with anything. And so that's what "Corn Puddin'" is. It's an ode to those songs. But the fun thing is that ironically, in our show, it does move the story forward because this stupid song gets Keegan to say, OK, we're leaving. We're not going to spend another minute in this town.

GROSS: And the waitress delivering the corn pudding is the younger woman who's pursuing him.

PAUL: Yes.

GROSS: Why don't we hear "Corn Puddin'"? And we'll also hear the Cecily Strong character kind of join in in a verse, much to the Keegan-Michael Key character's annoyance.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #2: (As characters, singing) My guy loves corn puddin' (ph). I got the recipe. So if he wants my puddin', he'll have to marry me. Oh, he'll have to marry me. You put the corn in the puddin' and the puddin' in the bowl. You put the bowl in your belly 'cause it's good for the soul. You put the corn in the puddin' and the puddin' in the bowl. You put the bowl in your belly 'cause it's good for the soul.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing) Who wants corn puddin'?

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #2: (As characters, singing) We want corn puddin'.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing) Who wants corn puddin'?

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #2: (As characters, singing) We want corn puddin'.

CECILY STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) I think they want us to take a verse.

KEEGAN-MICHAEL KEY: (As Josh Skinner) I'm not singing, and you're not singing.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) Come on - could be fun.

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) No. Do not.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble, singing) Never had corn puddin'.

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) Why?

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble, singing) And it may be a waste, but if you've got some extry (ph)...

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) Extry?

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble, singing) ...I sure would like a taste.

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #2: (As characters, singing) Oh, she sure would like a taste - corn, corn, corn, corn, corn puddin'. Yum.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) Yum. Oh, that was so weird. It was like as soon as I started singing, I knew what to say.

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) That's fantastic. Can we please go now?

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) What? Why?

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) Are you serious? The entire town and you just spent the last five minutes singing about corn pudding.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) Did somebody say corn puddin'?

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #2: (As characters, singing) Corn puddin'.

KEY: (As Josh Skinner) That's it. We're leaving.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) OK, well, that one's on you.

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #2: (As characters, singing) Corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin'.

GROSS: The music is kind of like a hoedown.

PAUL: Yes.

GROSS: It just reminded me, too, that when I was in school, we had to learn some of that kind of dancing, you know, like square dancing.

PAUL: Yeah. That was part of the curriculum somehow.

GROSS: Yeah. It's like, why are we learning this? We live in Brooklyn. Like, what are you thinking?

PAUL: (Laughter) I guess it was more appropriate for me growing up in Phoenix. I wonder if - is square dancing still taught in some schools? I feel like when my kids were little, they were still teaching square dancing. There must be a lobby somewhere that is making sure that that's still taught in schools.

GROSS: (Laughter) I like that idea - the square dancing lobby.

PAUL: Yeah.

GROSS: OK.

BIANCULLI: Cinco Paul speaking with Terry Gross in 2021 - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONNY ROLLINS' "TOOT, TOOT, TOOTSIE")

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with Cinco Paul about "Schmigadoon!," the musical comedy series he co-created and co-wrote. He also wrote all the songs. Season 2 of "Schmigadoon!" begins next week on Apple TV+.

GROSS: I want to get to another song. We all know that so many performers on Broadway historically have been gay, and it's only in recent years that they've been able to be out, and it's only recently that there are actually musicals about gay people who are out of the closet. So you have a few really funny references to, like, closeted gay people in musicals. One of the really funny songs - the mayor, who's played by Alan Cumming, is secretly gay, and it's a secret he's never disclosed to anybody. And he sings a song that kind of is a secret love kind of song, but...

PAUL: Yes, where he inadvertently reveals to Cecily's character that he's gay.

GROSS: Because she has gaydar and no one in the town does.

PAUL: Yes, exactly.

GROSS: But the mayor's wife sings a song that's called "He's A Queer One, That Man O' Mine." She has no clue that he's gay, but she knows that, you know, he's different from the other men. And usually in those songs, that's like, he's wonderful. He's so different from other men. But in this one, it's kind of like, hmm (ph), he's so different than other men. I want you to talk about writing this 'cause this is an example of a song that I don't think closely adheres to another song. It's a kind of - there's references to other songs in it, including "You're A Queer One, Julie Jordan" from - that's from "Carousel," right?

PAUL: That's from "Carousel."

GROSS: Yeah. So - but talk about writing this and what you wanted to do with it.

PAUL: Yeah. I mean, to me, there is a trope in these musicals often. There's a song called "Something Wonderful" from "King And I" and another song from "Carousel" called "What's The Use Of Wond'rin'." And I guess there's also "Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man Of Mine" (ph) - you know, these women who sing songs where, you know, he has maybe these flaws, but I still love him, you know? And so I wanted to play with that. But this is a song where she has no clue that her husband is gay. And so she - but everything that is evidence that he's gay, she sees as a really positive quality. Like, he doesn't look at other women.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: You know, he's amazing. And he's so tender, and he loves cooking. And, you know, she talks about, like, other men are really harsh. And - but he's gentle, you know, like a lacy valentine (laughter). And for her, it's all these really positive qualities. But also, really, in many ways, the mayor's story is at the heart of the show 'cause he is one of these characters that, back in the day, could only be queer-coded, you know? And - but because we have modern characters in "Schmigadoon!" now and Cecily's character really likes to get involved in people's lives, she helps push him to, you know, proclaim to the whole town who he really is. And Alan does such an amazing job with this character and really gives him depth and heart in a way that elevates it even beyond, you know, what I'd hoped he'd bring.

GROSS: Yeah. He's great in it. So this starts - this clip will start with Cecily Strong speaking. And I should say that the mayor's last name is Menlove - another little clue. OK, so here's "He's A Queer One," and this is Ann Harada singing.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) Mrs. Menlove, forgive me for asking, but how much do you really know about your husband?

ANN HARADA: (As Florence Menlove) That's a good question. He's a hard man to know, it seems - different. (Singing) Some men like to fight and curse. They smoke and drink and yell, leave you flat, or even worse, they stay and make life hell. But my man is gentle, as soft and sentimental as any lace adorned a valentine. He's a queer one, that man of mine.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) Oh, honey.

HARADA: (As Florence Menlove, singing) Some men stumble home at dark, want dinner and dessert. Other men have eyes that spark at every passing skirt. But my man loves cooking. I've never caught him looking at other gals more young, petite or fine. He's a queer one, that man of mine.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) This was literally me in high school.

HARADA: (As Florence Menlove, singing) Show me any other man more tender or expressive. I only wish that nightly, he were slightly more aggressive.

STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) There it is.

HARADA: (As Florence Menlove, singing) Sometimes it may seem like he is too good to be true, like there's a man that I can't see just aching to break through. I wish I could free him so I could finally see him the way he truly is and let him shine. He's a queer one, that man of mine.

GROSS: That's music from "Schmigadoon!," the loving satire of '40s and early 1950s musicals. And my guest, Cinco Paul, co-created the series, co-wrote it and wrote all the songs. Oh, that's really - it's a funny song, but it's also - it's a lovely song. It's a nice melody.

PAUL: Yeah. I mean, that was the intention. I never wanted the songs to be too jokey, if that makes - you know, I really wanted them, like, oh, that could genuinely have been a song sung in an undiscovered Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. And then it ends in a very - you know, Ann does an amazing job with the song, and it ends in a really sweet spot - right? - where she sort of wishes he could be who he really is. She suspects that he's not being his true self. She doesn't know what that actually means, but she really wishes the best for him and loves him.

GROSS: Well, listen. Congratulations on "Schmigadoon!" Please do a Season 2, and it's been great to talk with you.

PAUL: From your mouth to God's ears. Terry, I have to say, it is so meaningful to me that you like the show and that you responded to it like this. Thank you so much.

BIANCULLI: Cinco Paul speaking with Terry Gross in 2021. Season 2 of "Schmigadoon!" premieres next Wednesday on Apple TV+. After a break, I'll review it. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONNY ROLLINS' "I'M AN OLD COWHAND")
DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. We've just heard from songwriter Cinco Paul about collaborating on the first season of "Schmigadoon!" Next Wednesday, "Schmigadoon!" returns on Apple TV+ with the first two episodes of a new six-part second season. As in Season 1, Cecily Strong and Keegan-Michael Key star as Melissa and Josh, a modern couple who find themselves transported to a mythical musical land in which everyone tends to break into song and dance. Last season echoed the setting, feeling and music of classic midcentury musicals, like "Oklahoma!" and, of course, "Brigadoon." For Season 2, the tone is inspired by musicals of the '60s and '70s, and it's a lot darker. Once again, this gives Cinco Paul and company the chance to salute or parody some very familiar musical theater classics. But this time the supporting players from last season get to return as entirely new characters, like the ensemble cast members of "American Horror Story" get to do in that anthology series.

Dove Cameron for Season 2 of "Schmigadoon!" plays a Sally Bowles kind of vamp from "Cabaret," while Alan Cumming, who played the Emcee in the revival of that Broadway musical, instead takes on the role of a murderous demon butcher, echoing Sweeney Todd. Jane Krakowski takes on the slick lawyer role from "Chicago" but with a gender switch that allows for a little Roxie Hart as well. And the musicals "Hair" and "Godspell" also are represented, along with "Jesus Christ Superstar" and "Dreamgirls." And so is "Sweet Charity," when Melissa and Josh, seated at a table in the nightclub, watch and comment upon the onstage dancers, whose attitude and Bob Fosse choreography may have been provocative 60 years ago but not so much now.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (As characters, singing) Do we shock you, make you ill at ease? Do we offend your tender sensibilities? There's no norm we won't transgress. Look. There's a man, and he's wearing a dress.

CECILY STRONG: (As Melissa Gimble) Yeah. I mean, I've literally seen every season of "Drag Race," so...

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (As characters, singing) Do we scare you? Are you too refined?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing) I'm into boys and girls.

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (As characters, singing) Does that just blow your mind? Other girls get thanked and tipped. Us, we just like to get spanked and whipped.

KEEGAN-MICHAEL KEY: (As Josh Skinner) Wonder if the meatloaf's any good.

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (As characters, singing) Does that shock you? We hope it shocks you 'cause we're really putting a lot of effort into it. What do you think about this?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) I've got a tattoo.

BIANCULLI: Whatever is being lampooned, it's treated with affection and obvious enthusiasm. And, wow, is it fun. This season, subtitled "Schmicago," is tighter and better plotted than the original "Schmigadoon!" and is more confident and inventive. Even the acting between songs is a delight. Kristin Chenoweth made me laugh out loud as a combination Mrs. Lovett from "Sweeney Todd" and Ms. Hannigan from "Annie," whether or not she was singing. So did Alan Cumming as the cleaver-carrying butcher, Dooley Flint. When they decide to pair up in a later episode so that she can provide her unwanted orphans as the secret ingredient for his meat pies, the two Broadway veterans turn in a perfect parody of one of the most famous numbers from "Sweeney Todd," only instead of pretending to be customer and server and rhyming the occupations of future victims, they rhyme using the names of the always-underfoot orphans.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

ALAN CUMMING: (As Dooley Flint, singing) I'd love some ground beef.

KRISTIN CHENOWETH: (As Miss Coldwell, singing) Well, then, sir, you're in luck. Which do you prefer? We've got Patty or Chuck.

(LAUGHTER)

CUMMING: (As Dooley Flint, singing) Have you any mutton?

CHENOWETH: (As Miss Coldwell, singing) That would be Satin.

CUMMING: (As Dooley Flint, singing) Perhaps some foie gras?

CHENOWETH: (As Miss Coldwell, singing) Voila. See Francoise.

CUMMING: (As Dooley Flint, singing) Baloney.

CHENOWETH: (As Miss Coldwell, singing) Tony.

CUMMING: (As Dooley Flint, singing) Salami.

CHENOWETH: (As Miss Coldwell, singing) Tommy. And we've also got Reuben if you like pastrami.

CUMMING: (As Dooley Flint, singing) But do you...

BIANCULLI: That comes later in the series, but it's worth the wait. And there are gems from the start. Dove Cameron as decadent chanteuse Jenny Banks makes her first appearance as a club headliner with a song and dance that is close enough to a number from "Cabaret" to raise eyebrows.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SCHMIGADOON!")

DOVE CAMERON: (As Jenny Banks, singing) Back when I was summering in Brussels, I fell in love with Martin and his muscles. My heart got pumping every time he flexed. It's fair to say that I was overcome by what came next. Turns out he wasn't all that strong in bed, and that is when I turned to him and said, we've gone kaput. Now we're kaput. Once our desire burned like a fire, but now there's nothing left but soot. We had a laugh or two, but now the laughter is through. My dear, I fear that we're kaput.

BIANCULLI: This season of "Schmigadoon!" is stronger than many Broadway musicals I've seen and more overloaded with talent. Ariana DeBose is back this year, as are Aaron Tveit and Martin Short. And the newcomers include Titus Burgess as the narrator and Patrick Paige as the villain. Everyone gets a chance to shine and everyone does. I've seen all six episodes, and each one contains at least one really clever song, one very funny scene, and several surprises and references too good to spoil by mentioning. This second season of "Schmigadoon!" is more accessible than the first. And even though "Schmicago" wraps up its storyline very tightly at the end, it's so good, I hope they're planning another schmequel (ph).

(SOUNDBITE OF HELEN SUNG'S "SUNGBIRD")

BIANCULLI: On Monday's show, "Armageddon: What The Bible Really Says About The End." We talk with Bible scholar Bart Ehrman about his new book. He says a literal reading of the Book Of Revelation has created disastrous problems, including personal and psychological damage and consequences for U.S. foreign policy and the welfare of our planet. I hope you can join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF HELEN SUNG'S "SUNGBIRD")

BIANCULLI: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Al Banks. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. For Terry Gross, I'm David Bianculli.

(SOUNDBITE OF HELEN SUNG'S "SUNGBIRD")

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