How Season 1 of 'Jury Duty' put James Marsden's improv chops on trial

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. "Jury Duty" is the Prime Video streaming series about one unwitting regular guy who becomes part of a staged fake jury, not knowing that everyone around him is a professional actor. Season 2 of "Jury Duty" premieres today on Prime, but in a new setting, the corporate retreat of a fake hot sauce company called Rockin' Grandma's, which is in the midst of a corporate takeover. Again, one lone employee knows nothing of the ruse and is surrounded by actors.

The new season is called "Jury Duty: Presents Company Retreat." Today, we're going to listen to our 2023 interview with James Marsden, the most well-known of the actors in the original "Jury Duty." In that show, a regular guy named Ronald Gladden had agreed to participate in a documentary about the experience of being a juror in an LA courtroom. He doesn't know that everyone around him, the rest of the jury, the judge, the witnesses, is an actor who is improvising. They're all kind of odd, and their behavior is unpredictable, even more so than in a regular reality show.

Marsden plays a satirical, self-absorbed version of himself, serving as an alternate juror. Marsden's other recent TV shows include "Westworld" and "Dead To Me." And next month, he joins the cast of Jon Hamm's Apple TV series "Your Friends & Neighbors." His films include "The Notebook," the 2007 version of "Hairspray" and Disney's "Enchanted." He also played Cyclops in the "X-Men" film franchise. We're going to listen to Marsden's interview with FRESH AIR's Sam Briger. Let's hear a clip from the original "Jury Duty." The potential jurors are sitting in the courtroom waiting area, and Ronald realizes that the man sitting next to him is James Marsden.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "DURY DUTY")

RONALD GLADDEN: (As self) Dude, that's where I know you from. You're in "X-Men."

JAMES MARSDEN: (As self) Oh (laughter).

GLADDEN: (As self) I've been [expletive] thinking that this entire time.

MARSDEN: (As self) I didn't ask your name. Forgive me.

GLADDEN: (As self) Ronald.

MARSDEN: (As self) Ronald. James.

GLADDEN: (As self) Pleasure.

MARSDEN: (As self) Nice to meet you.

GLADDEN: (As self) Yeah. I was trying to pinpoint it. I was like, [expletive], I've seen you somewhere.

MARSDEN: (As self) Yeah, but I've been in, like, so much stuff. It's like "X-Men" and "Hairspray" and "Enchanted" and "Westworld" and stuff like that. "The Notebook" and...

GLADDEN: (As self) Oh, s***, you're in "Westworld"?

MARSDEN: (As self, laughter) Yeah, yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) I know him from "The Notebook."

GLADDEN: (As self) He's in "The Notebook"? Nuh-uh. What is he in "The Notebook"?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) The other guy.

GLADDEN: (As self) He's the other guy?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) The guy she really should have got together with.

GLADDEN: (As self) Oh, my God. I haven't seen that movie in so long. I didn't even - I didn't realize.

MARSDEN: (As self) I was looking at his socks over here. It looked like it said Sonic. And I'm in that movie "Sonic." And I was like, does he have Sonic socks?

GLADDEN: (As self) S***, you were in the movie "Sonic"?

MARSDEN: (As self) Yeah, yeah.

GLADDEN: (As self) That's the one with - the new one with Jim Carrey, right?

MARSDEN: (As self) Yeah, yeah.

GLADDEN: (As self) That was not a good movie.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

SAM BRIGER: That's a scene from "Jury Duty" with Ronald Gladden and my guest James Marsden. James Marsden, welcome to FRESH AIR.

MARSDEN: Thank you, Sam. I'm happy to be here.

BRIGER: It's great to have you here. So, I just want to ask you first, when you heard about what the show was going to be about, did you have any reservations about doing it?

MARSDEN: I only had reservations.

(LAUGHTER)

MARSDEN: Yes, I did. Of course. It was a very ambitious conceit. I was approached by my friend David Bernad, who is a producer of "The White Lotus." We've done a couple of projects together before. And he asked if I'd be interested in getting on a Zoom with Lee Eisenberg and Gene Stupnitsky of "The Office," who - I was a huge fan of that show. And he gave me sort of a basic one-liner idea of the concept of the show, which is basically, we're taking "The Truman Show," and we're dropping it in the middle of jury duty. And I said, OK, well, let's expound on that (laughter). What's my part? What am I doing?

And I got excited about all of those sort of improvisational element of the show and this sort of live theater part of the whole thing. So, yeah, I'm a big Christopher Guest fan. I love "The Larry Sanders Show." I love, obviously, "Curb Your Enthusiasm" and everything Larry David does. So it was - I was always looking for an opportunity to get in the room and play. But something like this was so unique, so different and original. And I was enthusiastic about being a part of something like this, but also apprehensive because I didn't know (laughter) if it was going to work.

BRIGER: Yeah.

MARSDEN: And yeah, I had many reservations. And the biggest one was the wild card of this one human being who's being dropped into this situation that is all fake and manufactured and what that's going to be like and - but I made it clear that it was important to me that I didn't want to be a part of a prank show.

BRIGER: Right.

MARSDEN: You know, I was not interested in being cruel or mean-spirited at all. And they said, no, we're not interested in doing that either. What we're doing is we're creating a hero's journey for somebody, and what we're surrounding him with are this cast of bizarre, eccentric weirdos, and hopefully carving out a path for him to become the leader at the end and have his "12 Angry Men" moment where he inspires us all and unites us. And then we pull the curtain back and celebrate him as a human being and hopefully he...

BRIGER: Show him what was it all about. Yeah.

MARSDEN: Show him what it was all about. And hopefully he takes that in stride. But, you know, who knows how he's going to react? So the sort of unknown was appealing to me, but it was also terrifying.

BRIGER: So when you were thinking about making this satirical version of yourself, did you think about things about yourself that you don't really like very much and amplify them, or did you come up with, like, a completely different character? Like, what did you base that person on?

MARSDEN: You know, to me, it was just the idea of lampooning the cliche, you know, entitled, self-absorbed, egocentric Hollywood actor was really exciting to me 'cause I can - and I could, you know, I could do it as myself. And hopefully, by the end of it, everyone would know that I'm satirizing that character.

BRIGER: Right.

MARSDEN: And it's not really me (laughter). And there's something about playing someone who thinks that the world worships them when they actually don't at all (laughter). And watching that person, you know, get humiliated, fall on their face, get embarrassed by the lack of enthusiasm in the room. And, I mean, this James Marsden is always trying to get the conversation steered back to him because...

BRIGER: Right.

MARSDEN: ...That's the only conversation he knows, and it's the only conversation he's interested in.

BRIGER: Right. Let's talk a little bit about the hero of the show, the real person, Ronald Gladden, like, so much relied on this guy. Like, either it could have been a terrible experience for him or, like - I mean, he could have turned out to be a horrible person. It was a real...

MARSDEN: Right.

BRIGER: ...Tightrope walk, I think, probably choosing the right person.

MARSDEN: No, it was. I mean, there were a number of things that could have happened that would have torpedoed this whole endeavor. And we got really, really lucky with him - mostly with him 'cause he just is one of the kindest, empathetic, you know, wonderful human beings that I've ever met. And he kind of took it all in stride and laughed it off and, you know, all the absurdity, the crazy things that are happening in the courtroom. So they did an amazing job of finding him. And then we got to know him on Day 1 - right? - when the camera started rolling. And I had only had a few days of rehearsal 'cause I was finishing up "Party Down" at the time, and the other cast members had another week and a half of rehearsals 'cause it was very strategic on - very choreographed where you sit. It was just intricate. And I remember thinking - just sweating bullets, just like, I don't think I'm ready for this. I don't know if I'm going to be funny. I don't want to be the one to blow the whole thing.

BRIGER: Yeah.

MARSDEN: But all they told us was his name's Ronald Gladden. He's from San Diego. He's a solar panel contractor or something like that. And he's 6-foot-6. And have fun (laughter). And then, you know, the scripts say this, and this is what happens, but you kind of had to be, like, water and flow and pivot when you needed to because no one knew what he was going to say. No one would - no one knew if he would even recognize who I was.

BRIGER: Yeah.

MARSDEN: No one knew...

BRIGER: Well, he doesn't quite at first, right? Like...

MARSDEN: No, he doesn't.

BRIGER: ...Takes him as second.

MARSDEN: Which is kind of comedy gold.

BRIGER: Yeah.

MARSDEN: You know?

BRIGER: Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a great part of that clip where he basically - you say, yeah, I was in "Sonic," and he's like, oh, I heard that's a bad movie. Like, you must have wanted to crack up at that point.

MARSDEN: (Laughter) I did, but I knew that he just put a meatball right over a home plate for me to (laughter) - you know? It was like, this is amazing that he just said that. And it gave me an opportunity to look as crestfallen as I could and (laughter) sort of, you know, brush it off and remind him that I was in other stuff.

BRIGER: Right.

MARSDEN: And it was a big movie, and, you know (laughter)? So it was perfect. I mean, it was really - there were moments where Ronald - there were scripted moments that he seemed to be ahead of us on...

BRIGER: That's interesting.

MARSDEN: ...That he kind of led us to.

BRIGER: Yeah.

MARSDEN: There's a moment in that opening sequence where we're in the waiting room, where Noah - there's an actor named Mekki. He's one of our writers as well - brilliant improv artist. He plays Noah. He comes in and he says, hey, how do you - I need to get out of this. I'm going on a vacation with my girlfriend. Any ideas of how you can get out of this? And it's scripted that Noah proposes the idea that it's a good idea to present to the judge that you're racist, and that's why you should be let off. And before Mekki could get to that beat, Ronald proposed, hey, I saw this "Family Guy" episode where the guy says he's racist and tries to get out of jury duty with that. (Laughter) He literally...

BRIGER: Yeah. He also says, like, I don't know if I'd necessarily recommend doing this. But...

MARSDEN: Sure.

BRIGER: Yeah.

MARSDEN: Right, right. Yeah. No, no. He was saying it, sort of, like, laughing, like, not...

BRIGER: Yeah. Don't do this.

MARSDEN: You know, kind of as a joke, of course. He never expected this young man to actually use that tactic. And you see the terror in his eyes when Noah gets up in the voir dire and use - you know, and that's the strategy that he goes for (laughter).

BRIGER: Yeah.

MARSDEN: But it was really amazing because, you know, as much as you can prepare for something like this, there's 20, maybe 30% of it that is just, like, you just got to be nimble and go with the flow. And if you - if we want Ronald to take a left and he wants to take a right, you got to take a right turn with him and adjust. And that was exciting and, like I said before, absolutely terrifying at the same time.

BIANCULLI: If you're just joining us, we're speaking with actor James Marsden from 2023. He played a self-absorbed, satirical version of himself in the series "Jury Duty." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our 2023 interview with James Marsden. He played a self-absorbed, satirical version of himself in the first season of Prime Video's "Jury Duty." The first three episodes of Season 2 premiere today, presenting a new storyline and cast. James Marsden spoke with FRESH AIR's Sam Briger, who asked him about the Disney film "Enchanted," in which he plays Edward, a tongue-in-cheek take on the Prince Charming type.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

BRIGER: I want to play a scene from the movie "Enchanted." This is a Disney movie that spoofs the idea of Disney princesses and Prince Charming, like, tropes. And you play Prince Edward. You and Giselle, who was played by Amy Adams, actually, like, live in an animated world, a very Disney world. And the minute you meet, you sing a duet together and fall immediately in love, and you plan to get married. However, your stepmother doesn't want you to marry Giselle, so she pushes her down a magic well, and she lands up in the non-animated, gritty world of New York City - I mean, gritty in a Disney sort of way. But - so she meets Patrick Dempsey and starts having feelings for him, and she starts to, like, learn to appreciate her new world. You've also jumped into the well to try to go find her. And here, you finally have - and this is at Patrick Dempsey's apartment. He has a daughter, and this is when you see her for the first time.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ENCHANTED")

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward, gasping) Giselle.

AMY ADAMS: (As Giselle) Edward.

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward, laughing).

PATRICK DEMPSEY: (As Robert Philip) Could you - I'm sorry, but could you just be careful?

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward) You.

DEMPSEY: (As Robert Philip) What?

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward) You're the one who's been holding my Giselle captive.

DEMPSEY: (As Robert Philip) Just let's stay calm.

ADAMS: (As Giselle) No.

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward) Have you any last words before I dispatch you?

DEMPSEY: (As Robert Philip) You have got to be kidding me.

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward) Strange words.

ADAMS: (As Giselle) No. No, no. These are my friends.

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward) Oh.

ADAMS: (As Giselle) This is Morgan. And, Robert, this is Edward.

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward, singing) I've been dreaming of a true love's kiss.

DEMPSEY: (As Robert Philip) He sings, too.

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward, singing) And a miss I have begun to miss. Pure and sweet, waiting to complete my love song. Yes, somewhere there's a maid I've never met, who was made - who was made to finish....

ADAMS: (As Giselle) What's wrong?

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward, whispering) You're not singing.

ADAMS: (As Giselle) Oh, I'm not. Well, I'm sorry. I was thinking.

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward) Thinking?

ADAMS: (As Giselle) Before we leave, there's one thing I would love to do.

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward) Oh. Well, name it, my love, and it is done.

ADAMS: (As Giselle) I want to go on a date.

MARSDEN: (As Prince Edward) A date. What's a date?

BRIGER: That's my guest, James Marsden, in the movie "Enchanted."

(LAUGHTER)

MARSDEN: It's so interesting just listening to the audio (laughter).

BRIGER: Yeah. It's great audio. So you're doing, like, a sort of - a Prince Charming voice there. Like, how - what are you doing?

MARSDEN: Oh, I mean, we went back and looked at all the old "Snow Whites" and, you know, the classic Disney princes and "Sleeping Beauty," and they all had this sort of voice, you know? It was like they loved the sound of their own voice.

BRIGER: Yeah.

MARSDEN: And they loved the idea...

BRIGER: It's like, (impersonating accent) I'm an actor or something.

MARSDEN: Yes. Yes. It was very - you know, back in the day, in the '40s or whatever, they were just taught to do - you know, speech. They had speech lessons and whatever. And with the singing, I mean, I know that was an a cappella bit, but when we actually recorded that song, I had vocal lessons from a coach who was - taught operetta-style singing. It was sort of Mario Lanza. You know, it wasn't - because back in the older Disney movies, that's the kind of singing it was. It was a style of music or a style of singing that I wasn't that familiar with, and I had to get up to speed.

But yes, it was - you know, I thought Edward was someone who always - every statement, as simple or complex as it would be, not that he was ever saying anything much complex - I mean, too complex, but it had to be a proclamation, right? Everything's, (as Prince Edward) I'll have a bagel.

(LAUGHTER)

MARSDEN: You know? And it had to have an exclamation point at the end of it. And I just think there was such fun to be had to just be this unabashed, romantic prince who just is in love with being in love. He's in love with the idea of Giselle, and he's in love with his - the sound of his own voice and just goes through - moves through life with just, you know, an optimism that's unmatched. And it was a lot of fun to play 'cause obviously, I'm wearing the big giant puffy sleeves...

BRIGER: (Laughter) Yes.

MARSDEN: ...And swinging the sword and the hair is flopping around and, you know, it just - it was a blast. It really was so much fun.

BRIGER: You know, you've had quite a few roles where you play, like, the passed-over romantic interest. Like, there's this movie and "The Notebook" in particular. But you could even say, like, your character, Teddy, in "Westworld" there's a little bit of that. Like, why do you think...

MARSDEN: Sure.

BRIGER: ...That you've had those roles. Were you typecast, do you think?

MARSDEN: I don't know. I mean, there - for a while, it became - it started getting more traction than I ever had intended, right? I mean, there were roles in between all of those big projects where I wasn't playing the...

BRIGER: Right.

MARSDEN: ...You know, the guy...

BRIGER: Sure.

MARSDEN: ...Who doesn't get the girl or the...

BRIGER: Right.

MARSDEN: ...Simp or whatever, you know. But it just so happens to be the ones that became big successes...

(LAUGHTER)

MARSDEN: ...Were those ones, were the roles where, you know, whatever the movie is, I was playing, you know, the guy who ends up kind of getting cuckolded or whatever you want to call it. And it started to look pathological, like I was choosing these on purpose (laughter). And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. This is not by design. It just sort of happened that way. So we didn't know "Enchanted" was going to be just a massive hit. "The Notebook" became, like, you know, this - still to this day is incredible how...

BRIGER: Yeah.

MARSDEN: ...The legs that that movie has.

BRIGER: Yeah. You know, I was just wondering, I think it's objectively clear that you're a very attractive person. And I was wondering if you just - like, in your life, did you ever have a realization of that, like, and that that would mean that there would be sort of attention towards you, like, maybe wanted attention or sometimes unwanted attention?

MARSDEN: Yeah. I guess there'd be - there was a realization at some point. It's so funny, though, because I was not that guy growing up. I really was not. I was goofy. I was - you know, I was the silly actor guy doing bits. I didn't know how to get a good haircut. You know, I didn't care what I was wearing. I just, you know, would have my shirt on inside out and mismatching socks and just - you know, in Oklahoma, it's like the girls want the, like, jock who's the quarterback of the football team and 6'2" corn-fed boy. And I was, like, this 145-pound shrimp who just was like, (vocalizing) I can do a good Mike Myers, you know? (Laughter) It's not the sexiest thing in the world.

I just never looked at myself that way until I turned about, like, 17, and sort of started coming into myself, and I started hearing it back from other people. Like, you know, I remember this girlfriend of mine, Leslie (ph), in high school, and she was, like, my pal. Like, we were buddies. And then when I got to senior year of high school, she was like, what happened to you? I'm like, what do you mean?

BRIGER: (Laughter).

MARSDEN: She's like, you're actually kind of hot now (laughter). So it's like, wait, what? What does that even mean?

BRIGER: Right.

MARSDEN: And I wasn't the guy who was getting the girl in high school, and maybe that's why I was attracted to those roles.

(LAUGHTER)

MARSDEN: But I did realize at some point that, you know, if you accept that as, you know, something that's part of your nature and it can be an absolute asset in this business, then embrace it.

BRIGER: Right.

MARSDEN: And don't lead with it. Don't rely on it as a crutch, and just treat it like it's a bonus, you know? And I remember this acting coach once. I think there was an acting coach who came through Oklahoma once. I took his class. And he said - he looked at me and he goes, you don't need to be thinking - just something like marquee good looks, you know, superstar. He's like, you need to be thinking Jim Carrey because you look the way you do, but you need to be something else on the inside. And I was like, yeah, actually, I relate to that way more (laughter).

BRIGER: Yeah.

MARSDEN: But, you know, you could weaponize it a little bit in Hollywood. You can just be like, all right, hey, this is a good thing. It's going to snare me some good roles.

BRIGER: (Laughter) Right. Yeah.

MARSDEN: And then I'm going to show that I'm - there's, you know, more than meets the eye with my performance or with my take on it. And I never wanted to be the guy who was just cast as the good-looking dude in a leather jacket.

BRIGER: Well, James Marsden, it's been really great having you on. Thanks so much for being on FRESH AIR.

MARSDEN: Thank you for having me.

BIANCULLI: James Marsden in 2023 speaking with FRESH AIR's Sam Briger. Marsden starred in the original "Jury Duty," and he's now one of the producers of Season 2, "Jury Duty: Company Retreat," which premieres today on Prime Video.

Next, we remember blues singer, guitarist and captivating storyteller Roy Book Binder. We listen back to our 1987 interview with him, and Justin Chang reviews the new film "Project Hail Mary." I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF EUBIE BLAKE'S "TRICKY FINGERS")

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. Roy Book Binder, the raconteur and acoustic musician known for playing Southern blues and hillbilly music, died March 3 at the age of 82. Known as the Travelin' Man or the Book, he picked up the guitar after a tour of duty in the U.S. Navy, purchasing it in Italy. Once in the U.S., he became part of the folk and blues revival in New York's Greenwich Village. He sought out and became a student and then a friend of blues and gospel musician Reverend Gary Davis. Book Binder also went south to track down one of his favorite performers, Pink Anderson, who had played for decades in medicine shows.

Book Binder's debut album, "Travelin' Man," was released in the early 1970s on Adelphi Records to critical acclaim. Soon after, he took to the road for years in an Airstream motor home, traveling to major blues and folk festivals in the U.S. and Canada, and he also toured in Europe. He shared the stages with Bonnie Raitt, B.B. King, Doc Watson and more. In the late 1980s, he made nearly 30 appearances on "Nashville Now" on cable TV's The Nashville Network. He released more than a dozen albums overall, some on his own label, PEGleg Records. In 1987, Roy Book Binder brought his guitar to FRESH AIR to visit with Terry Gross, play music and tell some great stories.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

TERRY GROSS: Roy Book Binder, welcome to FRESH AIR. And before we talk, can you get us started with a song?

ROY BOOK BINDER: Sure can.

(Singing) Call me a dog when I'm gone. It's old black dog when I'm gone. But when I get home with a $10 bill, it's, Daddy, where you been so long? Well, I've been all around Kentucky and the state of old Tennessee. Call me a dog when I'm gone, Lord, Lord. Old black dog when I'm gone. When I get home with a $10 bill, it's, Daddy, where you've been so long? My daddy was a gambling man from the state of old Tennessee. He told me to bet all of my money on ace, jack, that deuce and a trey.

Go pick it, Roy.

(Singing) See that train? It's coming, carrying my baby away. It's going off far to leave me. Ain't never coming back my way. And it's old black dog when I'm gone, Lord, Lord. It's old black dog when I'm gone. But when I get home with a $10 bill, Daddy, where you been so long?

"Black Dog Blues."

GROSS: Performed by my guest, Roy Book Binder. You know, I think there are a couple of traps that some white Northern performers have fallen into when performing Southern-based music. And I'm thinking, for instance, that some people seem to have almost lost their own voice when they sing. If they're singing Black-based music, they get a completely different voice and try to sound like an older Black man from the South. And I wonder if it was ever hard for you to find your own voice in your singing.

BOOK BINDER: Well, I started out with very little and it's growing.

(LAUGHTER)

BOOK BINDER: I remember when Bob Dylan's first record came out, I said, OK, I'm going to be a singer.

(LAUGHTER)

BOOK BINDER: If he can get away with that, I'm going to get away with this. And back in the early '60s, I moved south when I was 18, the first time I joined the Navy, ran away to sea and moved to Virginia, and I've been headed south ever since. And I've been lucky to have been associated with some great masters of the industry, though some of them knew they were masters and others didn't.

GROSS: Well, you spent some time trying to track down one of the musicians who you liked most, Pink Anderson. And he's someone that probably a lot of our listeners aren't familiar with. Tell us a little bit about him.

BOOK BINDER: Sure.

GROSS: And then I'll ask you to do a song by him.

BOOK BINDER: Pink Anderson was from Spartanburg, South Carolina. He made two records in 1929, and that was that. He disappeared from the recording industry. And he spent his entire career working medicine shows - little carnival deals - throughout the South. He worked with Chief Thundercloud's medicine show up until about 1959. When I met him, he was retired. He had a heart attack and didn't tour at all. And when I met Pink, he was not in great shape, but me and my friend, Paul Geremia, started to visit him. And, well, you know, at one point, we realized the worst thing about his health was he was starving to death down there. And he started to play again, and we took him out on tour once before he died. It was quite a deal.

Pink Anderson's music - he was a carnival performer, and his songs were white, Black and blue, you know? They were mixed up. The song that I'm going to do next, "Travelin' Man," has become my theme song, and it's a song that everybody in the folk field always identified with Pink Anderson, knowing that he probably didn't write it. But it's a song that goes back to minstrel shows, and it was probably a song written by a white man on Broadway. Like, so many times, you get a song from a New York writer on Broadway - what was Tin Pan Alley - and it filters down to the rural community, and then it's found by some folklorist as a - what a find (laughter). It happened throughout the history of country music and blues.

GROSS: Can you do a song for us from Pink Anderson?

BOOK BINDER: Sure can. This is the old "Travelin' Man" song. It came a long way.

(Singing) Well, I just want to tell you about a man named Boon (ph). His home was down in Tennessee. He made his living. He was stealing chickens and anything that he could see. That pop-eyed man, he said he run so fast that his feet never stayed in the road. When the freight train passed, didn't matter how fast, he'd always get on board.

(Singing) He was a traveling man. Certainly was a traveling man. He was the most travelinest (ph) man that ever was in that land. Traveled everywhere, known for many miles around, but he didn't get caught and he never got whupped till the police shot him.

(Singing) You know that the police shot that man with a rifle. The bullet went through his head. People, they were coming from miles around just to see if that boy was dead. They'd telegram down South, where his mama lived, and she was all upset with tears. She walked up and opened up the coffin's lid, but that fool had disappeared.

(Singing) He was a traveling man. Certainly was a traveling man. He was the most travelinest man ever in that land. Traveled everywhere, known for many miles around. Didn't get caught and he never got whupped till the police shot him down.

(Singing) You know, this boy went down to the spring one day to get himself a pail of water. The distance that the rascal had to go was about two miles and a quarter. He got there and got his water, and he started back, stumbled and fell down. He ran back the house, got himself another bucket, caught the water before it touched the ground.

(Singing) He was a traveling man. Certainly was a traveling man. He was the most travelinest man ever in that. Traveled everywhere, known for many miles around. He didn't get caught and he never got whupped till the police shot him down.

(Singing) Now, listen. This boy was out on the Titanic ship the day it was sinking down. He was standing out by the railing, had his head hung down. When that boy jumped overboard, everybody said he was a fool, but about two minutes right after that, well, he was shooting dice in Liverpool.

(Singing) He was a traveling man. Certainly was a traveling man. He was the most travelinest man ever in that land. Traveled everywhere, known for many miles around. But he didn't get caught and he never got whupped until the police shot him down.

Oh, pick it, Roy.

(Singing) Police caught the traveling man at last, then they had him up to hang one day. The jurymen, they all asked that man just what did he have to say. He begged the jurymen if they would bow their heads, bow their heads in prayer. And then he crossed one leg and he winked one eye, and he went up through the air. He was a traveling man.

"Travelin' Man."

GROSS: Did Pink Anderson teach you that one?

BOOK BINDER: Well, he didn't directly teach it to me, but I watched him play it.

GROSS: Right (laughter).

BOOK BINDER: He actually played it in a different key.

GROSS: Was he surprised to see you tracking him down, wanting to learn his songs? If he'd only recorded two songs, he must have been pretty obscure in musical terms.

BOOK BINDER: Oh, he went nuts when I went down there. I was sitting on his front porch. That's a long story. I don't have time to tell you the whole thing. But he came down the street, and I walked up the street towards him. I was playing the guitar on his step. I looked at him. I said, you must be Pink Anderson. He said, how'd you know that? I said, lady in the house said you went to the dry cleaners this morning. This is a dead-end street and you're carrying clothes. He thought I - he said, you been to college? I said, some. He thought I was pretty smart.

I told him I'd been looking for him for 36 hours. He asked me if I owed him money. I said, no, sir. I owe you money. He says, you do? How much? I said, $50. He says, give it here. So I gave him a $50 bill. He looked at it, snapped it twice, put it in his pocket, and then he inquired how did it come to be that I had owed him this small fortune? I told him I made a record of one of his songs. He said, was it a hit? I said, you be the judge.

GROSS: (Laughter).

BOOK BINDER: We became real good friends. He told me before he died - he says, Roy. That's what he always called me. I said, Pink. He says, you know them old songs of mine you can almost play right? I said, yeah. He says, well, I'm giving them to you. They're yours now. You just tell people Pink Anderson, born and getting ready to die in Spartanburg, South Carolina, used to pick a guitar and sing.

BIANCULLI: Roy Book Binder in the FRESH AIR studios in 1987. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the FRESH AIR studio visit by Roy Book Binder, who dropped by to tell stories, play and sing in 1987. He died earlier this month at age 82.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: Let's talk a little bit about Reverend Gary Davis, who you also met. And I think this was before he had become rediscovered. He'd already been rediscovered?

BOOK BINDER: Oh, he was semi-famous when I met him. He already was living in a little house in Jamaica, Queens.

GROSS: What's some of the strumming or finger picking style that you learned from him?

BOOK BINDER: Well, Reverend Davis, he had a number of styles.

(Playing guitar).

He had what - his simple, little style. Like, he did "Candy Man" and he did the "Cocaine Blues," and he did "Delia." And then he'd get a little more complex in his blues, like the "Hesitation" blues. Nickel is a nickel and a dime is a dime - house full of children, ain't one of them mine.

(Playing guitar).

It was one of his other styles. And he had an instrumental style where he imitated the piano and played ragtime pieces, which was really fascinating to the young guitar players that came around. There was a lot of interesting things going on in there. It took a lot of time for some of us to get it, some longer than others.

GROSS: Most blues musicians have many stories to tell about getting ripped off while they were on the road. And I wonder if that was any worse for Gary Davis since he was blind, and it would've been...

BOOK BINDER: Oh.

GROSS: ...That much easier for people to take advantage?

BOOK BINDER: Well, he was taken advantage of a lot when he was singing on the streets for many years in Harlem. He'd lose guitars and what have you. First lesson Reverend Davis taught me when we got to our first rooming house out somewhere near Chicago - and Reverend Davis was getting ready to go to bed. He says, now, Roy, you got to understand. He said, we're in a strange city in a strange house here, and I don't like the house much. I said, well, how come? He said, they're not taking care of this house.

I said, well, how do - you're a blind man, I said, how do you know that? He said, well, the doorknob is loose. I checked it on the way in. He said, when you go to sleep, the first thing you do, he says, is you take out your knife. He reached in his pocket and pulled out a knife about 12 inches long. I about had a heart attack. He says, you take your knife and you put it under your pillow.

He said, then you get your pocketbook. And he reached down his long johns and pulled out his little leather purse he kept all his money in. He always traveled with some money. He says, you put that inside your pillowcase. He said, somebody comes for your pocketbook, you know where your knife is. You go to sleep with your hand on your knife. And he goes to sleep.

Next morning, about 5:30 in the morning, Reverend Davis is screaming, good God, the mighty lord, have mercy. That was - that could mean anything (laughter). I said, Reverend Davis, what's the matter? I mean, I was in dreamland getting woken up like that. I mean, he was in his 70s, an old blind man, and he was hysterical. I said, what's the matter? He says, they done got my pocketbook. I said, oh, Lord, have mercy.

And we're crawling around the room. And he's screaming, who got his pocketbook, how did somebody get in this room, he knew that door wasn't good. And didn't you hear nobody? My heart was beating a mile a minute. I'm searching all over this room, and finally, I found his pocketbook under the bed. I says, Reverend Davis. He says, Roy? That's what he always called me. I said, I found your pocketbook. All the money is in there. Don't worry.

He said, good God, the mighty, where was my pocketbook? I said, you got to remember something when you go on the road. He says, what's that? I said, you went to sleep real late. And you were tired. And I think you put your pocketbook underneath your pillowcase and your knife inside your pillowcase, and you got it mixed up, and your pocketbook fell behind your pillow onto the floor. Oh, he had a fit.

GROSS: (Laughter).

BOOK BINDER: Give me that pocketbook. Where's my knife? Put all his stuff away (laughter).

GROSS: Can you play us a song that you learned from Reverend Gary Davis?

BOOK BINDER: Yeah.

(Playing guitar).

Let me play a song that I wrote in the style of Reverend Gary Davis.

GROSS: Great.

BOOK BINDER: It was a song he always did called "I'll Be All Right Some Day." And I loved that song. I always wanted to learn how to play it. I finally figured out the basics of it and came out with a little arrangement. And I decided I really couldn't - I didn't feel comfortable singing the words that he'd wrote for it. It was one of these biblical epics. He had some that went on for 15 minutes, you know? And we came out with this. It's called "I'm Going Home Someday."

(Playing guitar).

(Singing) If my road is rocky and my journey's rough, if I stumble and I fall, well, I'll pick myself up, keep marching forward. And I'll drive these blues away. I've been a gambling man - I've been a cheat. I've often lost my way. I've seen the darkness, want to see the light, trying to start a brand-new day. Yes, I'm going home. I'm going home. I'm going home someday. Temptation cast aside, won't take no devil ride. I'm going home someday.

Wind is blowing hard, rain is coming down and I can't keep myself warm. But I keep searching for better days and a sheltered port from the storm. I'm going home. I'm going home. I'm going home someday. Temptations cast aside, won't take no devil ride. I'm going home someday. Going to see my mother, going to see my father, going to see my baby brother, too. And when I get there, I won't have to worry. I'll know just what to do. I'm going home. I'm going home. I'm going home, I say. Temptation cast aside, won't take no devil ride. I'm going home someday.

(Playing guitar).

GROSS: Great song.

BOOK BINDER: Thank you.

BIANCULLI: Roy Book Binder visiting the FRESH AIR studios in 1987. He died March 3 at age 82. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new Ryan Gosling film, "Project Hail Mary." This is FRESH AIR.

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. Ryan Gosling played an astronaut eight years ago in the Neil Armstrong drama "First Man." He returns to space in the new science fiction adventure "Project Hail Mary," but this time, he's playing a scientist on a lonely mission to save Earth from destruction. The movie was directed by Phil Lord and Christopher Miller of the animated "Spider-Verse" series, and it's based on a novel by Andy Weir, author of "The Martian." "Project Hail Mary" opens in theaters this week, and our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

JUSTIN CHANG, BYLINE: "Project Hail Mary" is about an astronaut who finds himself abandoned in outer space, where he bonds with a cute alien who tries to help him save Earth from climate change. I hate to describe a movie as a mashup of this and that, but sometimes there's no way around it. This film is basically "The Martian" meets "E.T." by way of "Interstellar." That's a handy way of summing up its appeal, but it also points to its very real limitations. I had high hopes for "Project Hail Mary," but it's the most derivative and carefully manufactured crowd-pleaser I've seen in a while. It doesn't feel like storytelling so much as mechanical engineering.

Somewhere, millions of miles from Earth, an astronaut named Ryland Grace, played by Ryan Gosling, awakens from a yearslong coma to find himself all alone on an unmanned spacecraft. The two other astronauts onboard are dead, and Grace has temporary amnesia, with no idea who or where he is. It's a fairly chilling premise on paper, but from the start, the movie plays the situation for laughs. Grace flails and falls all over the place. Gravity is in full effect. But although Gosling is a nimble physical comedian, I had trouble buying his performance. Grace might be all alone in space, but he seems to be mugging for the camera, as if he knew there was an audience watching him.

In time, Grace's memories begin to return. In regular flashbacks, we see him back on Earth, teaching middle school science. He's approached by a government official named Eva Stratt - a terrific Sandra Huller - who wants to recruit him for a top-secret mission called Project Hail Mary. She knows that years ago, Grace was one of the most important molecular biologists in the U.S. Long story short, the sun is being devoured by aggressive microbes called Astrophage. If nothing is done, the resulting global cooling will wipe out a huge chunk of Earth's population over the next few decades. Grace was chosen to join a crew of astronauts who would venture into deep space, seeking a solution to the Astrophage problem. Now, with his colleagues dead, he really is Earth's last hope.

Before long, the movie's "E.T." component kicks in. Grace meets an alien from another spaceship who looks a bit like a crab made of sandstone and whom he nicknames Rocky. Rocky's home planet, Erid, is also being threatened by Astrophage, and in time, he and Grace become friends and team up to save their respective worlds. That isn't easy, since Rocky and Grace don't speak the same language, but Grace devises a clever communication system using laptop voice translation software. In this scene, Rocky - that's the gifted puppeteer James Ortiz doing the voice and movements - encases himself in a protective, airtight ball and comes aboard Grace's ship.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "PROJECT HAIL MARY")

JAMES ORTIZ: (As Rocky) Hi, Grace.

RYAN GOSLING: (As Ryland Grace) You're in a ball.

ORTIZ: (As Rocky) So Rocky no die in Grace atmosphere. I come up.

GOSLING: (As Ryland Grace) Oh, you're coming up. Oh.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Foreign body detected.

ORTIZ: (As Rocky) Grace and Rocky, big science. How to kill Astrophage together.

GOSLING: (As Ryland Grace) OK. Hold...

ORTIZ: (As Rocky) I keep going this way. This room boring.

GOSLING: (As Ryland Grace) Rocky.

ORTIZ: (As Rocky) Science. Save Earth. Save Erid. Good plan.

GOSLING: (As Ryland Grace) No, no, no, no, no, no. No. No. No.

ORTIZ: (As Rocky) What's this down here, question? Amaze, amaze, amaze. Rocky want to see human technology.

GOSLING: (As Ryland Grace) No, no, no, no.

ORTIZ: (As Rocky) Dirty, dirty, dirty, dirty, dirty. Why room so messy, question?

GOSLING: (As Ryland Grace) Well, I wasn't expecting company, was I?

CHANG: Like "The Martian," "Project Hail Mary" was adapted by the screenwriter Drew Goddard from a novel by Andy Weir. But any comparison between the two only makes "The Martian" look better. In that 2015 film, the director, Ridley Scott, let the comedy rise naturally from an inherently tense and suspenseful story. But "Project Hail Mary" was directed by the duo of Phil Lord and Christopher Miller, who specialize in zippy irreverence. I've loved many of their earlier comedies from "21 Jump Street" to "The Lego Movie" and also their work as producers on the mind-bending "Spider-Verse" films. Here, they've made a buddy comedy about saving the world. And although Rocky and Grace's bond has a lot of charm and moments of deeper connection, it's also more than a little exhausting. The tone of the story is so flippant and the emotional beats so preordained that the larger stakes pretty much evaporate. It's as if the filmmakers had cooked up an elaborate, world-threatening scenario just so that our protagonist could go off and have a close encounter of the therapeutic kind.

You could say something similar about "Interstellar," but Christopher Nolan's film had an operatic power and a crazy conviction that compelled you to believe in it. "Project Hail Mary" feels glib and earthbound by comparison. It has a couple of strikingly shot set pieces, including a harrowing visit to another planet that might hold the key to survival. But the movie, for all its wondrous production design, doesn't have the hypnotic visual power of the best space epics. It never clues you in to what Grace must surely, on some level, be experiencing - the terrifying vastness of outer space and the fear of never being able to find your way home.

BIANCULLI: Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. He reviewed "Project Hail Mary," starring Ryan Gosling.

On Monday's show, actor Riz Ahmed on his new Prime Video series, "Bait," playing a British Pakistani actor auditioning to be the next James Bond. He's also a writer and creator on the series, and he stars in a new film adaptation of Shakespeare's "Hamlet." Hope you can join us.

For Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, I'm David Bianculli.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.