Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes

DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Today we have more of our favorite music interviews from the FRESH AIR archive. We begin with Smokey Robinson, one of the greatest soul singers ever and one of the most important figures in the development of Motown Records. He performed with The Miracles, and they had the label's first big hit, "Shop Around," which was followed by many more, including "You've Really Got A Hold On Me," "Ooo Baby Baby," "The Tracks Of My Tears," "I Second That Emotion" and "Tears Of A Clown." In addition to writing and producing most of his own records, he also wrote for other Motown acts, including The Temptations, The Marvelettes, Marvin Gaye and Mary Wells. From 1961 until 1988, Robinson was a vice president of Motown. Here he is on one of his hits.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "OOO BABY BABY")

SMOKEY ROBINSON: (Singing) I did you wrong. My heart went out to play. But in the game, I lost you. What a price to pay. Hey; I'm crying. Ooh, baby, baby, ooh, baby, baby. Mistakes...

DAVIES: When Terry spoke with Smokey Robinson in 2006, he told her how he first met Berry Gordy.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

ROBINSON: My No. 1 singing idol was Jackie Wilson, which was how I actually met Berry Gordy because the group that turned out to be The Miracles - and I went for an audition for Jackie Wilson's managers in Detroit. And at that time, Berry Gordy had written all of the hit songs that Jackie Wilson had out. And Berry happened to be at that audition. And rather than us singing songs that were currently popular by other people, we sang about five songs that I had written.

And so Jackie Wilson's managers rejected us. They told us we would never make it because we had a guy singing lead high. And there was a girl in our group. And there was already The Platters who were very, very, very popular at that time. And so they had a guy singing high and a girl in group. And so we would never make it because of The Platters. And Berry Gordy happened to be at that audition, and he was impressed because he had never heard any of the songs that we sang.

So he came outside afterwards. He was there to turn in some new songs to Jackie Wilson. And he asked where we got the songs, and I told him I'd written them and so and so forth. And he asked me if I had some more songs, which was a mistake on his part, because I had a hundred songs in a notebook that I had with me. And I sang about 20 of them for Berry that day, and he just critiqued them for me. And I told him that I had all of his music because I had all of Jackie Wilson's music and some of the other songs he had written for Etta James and a couple of groups and stuff like that. And we struck up a relationship. And about a year or so after that, man, we started Motown. And so that was a fabulous time of my life.

TERRY GROSS: So when he critiqued your songs after you sang a bunch for him, what did he say?

ROBINSON: Well, you know, Terry, I could always rhyme. From the time I was a little kid, I could always rhyme stuff. But my songs at that time didn't complete an idea. I would have a great rhymed up first verse, but it had nothing to do with the second verse, which was rhymed up really good. You know, he made me know that I would have three or four songs in one song. And he just taught me basically how to construct a song and how to make a song one idea that carries from the beginning to the end, and the beginning and the middle and the ending all tie in together to give a person one complete idea, and how to construct my songs.

GROSS: You and Berry Gordy co-wrote "Got A Job," and then he wrote your first big hit - right? - which was "Shop Around."

ROBINSON: No, he did not. I wrote it.

GROSS: No, he did not write that. You wrote it. Why did I think he wrote it? Did he take credit for that? Did I just read that wrong?

ROBINSON: I don't know why you thought that. No.

GROSS: I'm taking credit away from you (laughter).

ROBINSON: No, no, no. What happened with "Shop Around" was the fact that we had a big hit on a guy named Barrett Strong, "Money (That's What I Want)." And Berry had - we had just started Motown, basically. You know, we had a few hits. But Berry wanted me to write an album for Barrett. So "Shop Around" was one of the songs that I wrote for that particular album. I was going to record it on Barrett Strong. And I was very excited because a lot of time, songs just flow out. "Shop Around," took me about 20 minutes at the most to write. Some songs take longer to write, but "Shop Around" had flowed out. In about 20 minutes, I had it.

So I went to Berry's office, and I told him. I said, hey, man. I have got a great song for Barrett for his next record. And he said, you have? He said, let me hear it. So we go down into studio at the piano. And I play "Shop Around" and I sing it for him. And he got very excited about it. So he said, move over, man, because I want to change these chords right here. And it's - which is why his name would be on the particular song on "Shop Around." And he didn't want to put his name on it, but I insisted that he did because we worked on it for an hour or two there.

And after we got through working on it, he said, I want you to sing this song. So I said, no, man, I wrote this song for Barrett. So we went through that for five minutes. No, you sing. No, I wrote for Barrett. No, you sing it. So finally, he said, well, you just go into the studio and record this song - on you and The Miracles and we'll see what happens. So I did. And when I sang it, when I had written it, it was like a little slower and bluesy. And so I recorded it on The Miracles and me. And it came out. And it had been out for about two weeks, and it was doing fair.

And Berry called me at 1 in morning - at about 3 o'clock in the morning and said, hey, man. I want you to get the group and come to the studio because I've already called all the musicians. And I want you to come to the studio. I'm going to rerecord "Shop Around." I'm going to change the beat. And it's going to No. 1. So to make a long story short, I did - I called the group, and we went to the studio. And everybody showed up with the exception of the piano player. So Berry is playing the piano on "Shop Around." And we rerecorded it - his version of it, which was the one that went to No. 1.

GROSS: So when Berry Gordy called you in the middle of the night and said, oh, we're going to do it over, it's too slow, did - were you insulted?

ROBINSON: No, I was not insulted. I just said, man, are you crazy? He said, no, I might be, but this is what we're going to do. The first thing he said to me was, hey, Smoke. I said, yeah, man. He said, this is Berry. I said, I know, man, I recognize your voice. He said, what are you doing? I said, what am I doing? I said, I'm sleep. He said, well, I can't sleep. I said, I can see that. He said, "Shop Around" is driving me crazy, man. He said, I can't get it out of my mind. And I want to change the beat. So you get the group and come to the studio. And I've called the musicians, and we're going to rerecord it. So that's what we did.

GROSS: Well, I guess we'd better hear it. This is "Shop Around," Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, recorded in 1960.

ROBINSON: All right.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SHOP AROUND")

THE MIRACLES: (Singing) When I became of age, my mother called me to the side. She said, son, you're growing up now? Pretty soon you'll take a ride. And then she said, just because you've become a young man now, there's still some things that you don't understand now. Before you ask some girl for her hand now, keep your freedom as long as you can now. My mama told me, you better shop around. Oh, yeah, you better shop aroubd, Oh, there's some things that I want you to know now. Just as sure as the wind's gonna blow now. The women come and the women gonna go now. Before you tell 'em that you love 'em so now. My mama told me, you better shop around. Oh, yeah, you better shop around. Try to get yourself a bargain, son. Don't be sold on the very first one. Now, pretty girls come a dime a dozen. Try to find you one who's gonna give you true loving. Before you take a girl and say, I do, now. Make sure she's in love with you now. My mama told me, you better shop around.

GROSS: Now, the story goes that you suggested to Berry Gordy that he start his own record company, and that's how he started at Tamla, which eventually transformed into Motown. Did you suggest that? And if so, why?

ROBINSON: Yeah, I did, because in the beginning when we first got with Berry, he was - like I said, he was a songwriter and a producer, and he would produce records on the Miracles and me and his other artists and put them with other record companies. And nobody was paying us. I mean, it was - back in those days, you know, if you didn't have five - four or five hits in a row, nobody paid you. They didn't think about paying you. They just didn't pay you. So people were not paying us. So I just told him, we might as well take a chance ourselves because, you know, we might as well - if we're going to not make any money, we might as well not make any money with our own stuff. And so that's why we started Motown, so people could get paid.

GROSS: And did you start doing anything different in the studio when it was really your own operation?

ROBINSON: No. No. We just wanted to make good music. The first day of Motown, there were five of us there. There was Berry Gordy plus four other people. And we were there. And Berry said, we are not going to make Black music. We're going to make music. We're going to make music for everybody. We're going to make music that everybody can enjoy. We're going to make music with some great beats and some great songs. And that's what we set out to do. And thank God that's what we did.

GROSS: And "Shop Around" was, like, the first big hit for Motown, wasn't it?

ROBINSON: Yeah. It was the first million seller.

DAVIES: Smokey Robinson speaking with Terry Gross in 2006. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MICKEY'S MONKEY")

SMOKEY ROBINSON AND THE MIRACLES: (Vocalizing).

DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. This week, we're listening to some of our favorite music interviews from the FRESH AIR archive. Let's get back to Terry's conversation with Smokey Robinson, recorded in 2006.

GROSS: I want to move on to another big hit for you, which is "You Really Got A Hold On Me" from 1962. And this is something you wrote and produced. Is there a story behind the song?

ROBINSON: Yeah. Sam Cooke, who turned out to be one of my friends, was my No. 2 singing idol. I told you, Jackie Wilson was my No. 1 singing idol as a kid growing up. And Sam Cooke was my No. 2 singing idol. And Sam Cooke had out a record called "Bring It On Home to Me," which was one of those slow, bluesy kind of songs. It was a really big hit. So I wanted to write a song like "Bring It On Home To Me." So I had gone - like I said, I was vice president of Motown at the time, and I had gone to New York to make a deal with a publishing company there. And I was in my hotel room that evening after I'd gone to meet with them. I went back to my hotel room, and I was trying to think of a song like "Bring It On Home To Me." And then it came to me, which was "You Really Got A Hold On Me." And that's how that song came to be.

GROSS: Is your songwriting process like that, that you have an idea, and then the song just comes out, but first you have, like, a hook?

ROBINSON: Well, not necessarily the hook first. You know, there's no pattern. There is no songwriting pattern. You know, sometimes I'll have some chords that I play on the piano that inspire a song. Sometimes I'll see a billboard or something in a newspaper or something on TV or something that inspires me to have an idea for a song. But I'm not one of those songwriters who needs to take two months or three months and go off to the mountains and isolate myself so that I can write, or go down to the beach and rent a little hut so I can write, you know? It just happens to me on a daily basis. Almost every day, something happens that will inspire a melody or a song to me. And that's just how - it's a blessing, I think, that everybody has a gift. I think God gives everybody a gift. And so that's the one he gave me. But it's a joy. I mean, it's what I do. It's my life.

GROSS: Well, this is "You Really Got A Hold On Me" from 1962, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "YOU'VE REALLY GOT A HOLD ON ME")

SMOKEY ROBINSON AND THE MIRACLES: (Singing) I don't like you, but I love you. Seems that I'm always thinking of you. Though you treat me badly, I love you madly. You really got a hold on me. You really got a hold on me. You really got a hold on me, baby. I don't want you, but I need you. Don't want to kiss you, but I need to. Though you do me wrong now, my love is strong now. You really got a hold on me. You really got a hold on me. You really got a hold on me, baby. I love you, and all I want you to do is just hold me, hold me, hold me, hold me.

GROSS: You were producing as well as writing and recording at Motown. What did you like about producing other people's records, like The Temptations, for instance?

ROBINSON: Well, Terry, I have always enjoyed working with other people and trying to get hits on them. And if I accomplished that, I felt very, very, very good to have a positive effect on one of my brothers' and sisters' career, because at Motown, we were all brothers and sisters, and we all hung together. We weren't just artists who saw each other fly by night - you know, I see you in passing. We actually hung out together and did social things together. So for me to have a positive effect on one of their careers by writing and producing a hit song on them gave me great joy.

GROSS: You know, I'm going to ask you about "Since I Lost My Baby," which is one of my Temptations favorites. Did you write that for the group?

ROBINSON: Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

GROSS: And what aspect of them were you writing it for?

ROBINSON: "The Way You Do The Things You Do" was the first hit record that I ever wrote for The Temptations. I had been writing a couple other songs for them when they first came to Motown. And so they were like my assignee group. They had been assigned to me. Berry assigned them to me to try to get a hit on them. So finally, I get "The Way You Do The Things You Do," which was a - their first really big hit on them. And I used Eddie Kendricks to sing the lead vocal on that. So all the producers and writers at Motown had access to all of the groups, and we had writing competitions and producing competitions to see who could get the best record on a group.

So after I got "The Way You Do The Things You Do" on The Temptations, all the producers and writers started to write songs that used Eddie Kendricks' voice to sing the lead. But I knew that Paul Williams and David Ruffin were in that group, and they had awesome voices. Everybody in that group could sing individually. But Paul Williams and David Ruffin had voices that I knew once I get a hit on them, it's all over. And so I wrote that song "My Girl" for David Ruffin's voice.

And so I continued to write a few songs using David Ruffin's voice. And "Since I Lost My Baby" was one of those songs. And "Since I Lost My Baby" was a sort of, like, a sad song. And I wanted to make this person - like "My Girl." "My Girl" was just the opposite of just - of "Since I Lost My Baby" because "My Girl" was saying even when things are wrong and going very, very bad, you know, there's, you know, sunshine.

GROSS: Yeah, there's sunshine on a cloudy day, yeah.

ROBINSON: I got sunshine because...

GROSS: Yeah.

ROBINSON: ...I got my girl, you know what I mean? So that was just the opposite of "Since I Lost My Baby." Because since I lost my baby, everything is going right. But it's not right because I have lost my woman. So that was the opposite of "My Girl."

GROSS: And did you work out the harmonies on this as the producer?

ROBINSON: No, because The Temptations were very, very, very, very creative in doing their own background vocals. I would be sitting at the piano showing the lead vocal how the song went - with the exception of "The Way You Do The Things You Do" and another song that I did on The Temptations called "I'll Be In Trouble," which I wanted all of them to sing it together to have a harmony sound on it - with the exception of those two songs, I always let The Temptations make up their own background vocals because they were great at it.

GROSS: OK, well, this is The Temptations. This song is written and the record is produced by my guest, Smokey Robinson.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I GOT SUNSHINE")

THE TEMPTATIONS: (Singing) Sun a-shining. There's plenty of light. A new day is dawning, sunny and bright. But after I've been crying all night, the sun is cold, and the new day seems old. Since I lost my baby, since I lost my baby, since I lost my baby, since I lost my baby. The birds are singing, and the children are playing. There's plenty of work, and the bosses are paying. Not a sad word should my young heart be saying. But fun is a bore, and with money I'm poor. Since I lost my baby, since I lost my baby, since I lost my baby, since I lost my baby. Next time I'll be kinder, next time I'll be kinder. Won't you please let me find her? Won't you please let me find her? Someone just remind her, someone just remind her about this love she left behind her, about this love she left behind her. Till I find her I'll be trying now. Till I find her I'll be trying now. Every day I'm more inclined to find her, inclined to find her, inclined to find my baby.

GROSS: Let me get back to your music. There's one more song of yours I really want to ask you about, and that's "Tracks Of My Tears," which is one of your very greatest. What's the story behind this song and how you wrote it?

ROBINSON: "Tracks Of My Tears," like many of the songs that I've written, was introduced to the world by my guitar player, Marv Tarplin. Marv Tarplin does music. And he's not a lyricist, but he does music. He does this wonderful, wonderful music. So "Tracks Of My Tears" - he had given me the music for "The Tracks Of My Tears" six months before I ever came up with an idea for that song. And I had it on tape, and I would listen to it.

And the first parts of "The Tracks Of My Tears" that ever came to me was the chorus: take a good look at my face, you'll see my smile looks out of place, if you look closer, it's easier to trace. And I thought that was so good and tidy and so good. But I couldn't think of - trace what? Just - (vocalizing) trace (vocalizing). And then, one day I was in my car, and I thought about what if a person had cried so much until if you looked closely at them, you could see tracks in their face that the tears had made. And that's how they came to be.

GROSS: That's really good.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE TRACKS OF MY TEARS")

SMOKEY ROBINSON AND THE MIRACLES: (Vocalizing). (Singing) People say I'm the life of the party 'cause I tell a joke or two. Although I might be laughing loud and hearty, deep inside I'm blue. So take a good look at my face. You'll see my smile looks out of place. If you look closer, it's easy to trace the tracks of my tears. I need you, need you, need you, need you. Since you left me, if you see me with another...

DAVIES: Smokey Robinson spoke to Terry Gross in 2006. Robinson is still performing at age 82, and he has an album in the works as well as a biopic of his life. After a break, we'll hear Terry's 1994 interview with Isaac Hayes. This is FRESH AIR.
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF ISAAC HAYES SONG, "THEME FROM SHAFT")

DAVIES: The movie "Shaft" helped launched the blaxploitation genre of the '70s. The Academy Award-winning theme was composed and performed by Isaac Hayes. In the '60s, Hayes helped shape the sound of Memphis soul music as a songwriter, arranger, producer and singer for Stax Records. He co-wrote Hits for Sam & Dave, Carla Thomas and Johnnie Taylor. Then he started making his own albums, which featured his singing and slow, soulful raps. During the years Hayes wasn't recording, he was acting. He was featured in Keenen Ivory Wayans Black action satire "I'm Gonna Git Get You Sucka," and Mel Brooks' "Robin Hood," Mario Van Peebles' "Posse" and the comedy "It Could Happen To You." Terry spoke with Isaac Hayes in 1994.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Now, I know before you started making your own records, before you started singing in your records, you produced for other people. And also, you played piano and keyboards. You used to play with Booker T and The MG's. Now, how did you learn to play piano, growing up as poor as you did - I know there were times in your life when you didn't have shoes, let alone a piano?

ISAAC HAYES: That's true. How did I do that? Well, let's see. A friend of mine, I grew up with, Sidney Kirk - used to be like accompanists. We went places and he'd play for me. He joined the Air Force. He wasn't there. There was a call in to him about a gig, New Year's Eve. His sister knew that I was destitute and I needed money. So she asked me if I want to play. Well, I could play maybe "Chopsticks" and stuff like that. And I said, yeah, I'll take it. I took the gig out of desperation. And when I got to the club, I was petrified. I said, my God, they're going to shoot me. I can't play.

And musicians started coming in, you know, setting up, tuning up. And I'm sitting there, you know, trying to be cool. I said, God, they going to find me out. And the featured artist came in, said, hey, man. Do y'all know such and such? This is the first time this band had been put together. We didn't rehearse anything. And everybody said, yeah, you know. So he kicked off the tune, and it sounds horrible - everybody did. I said, wow, these guys can't play either, so I'm comfortable. And, you know, being New Year's Eve, the clientele was drunk. And they thought we were cooking, you know.

GROSS: (Laughter).

HAYES: And somewhere along the line, the club owner, he was sauced. He came up and said, you know, you boys sound real good. Y'all want a regular job? Yeah, we'll take it. And that was in Memphis. And it was a regular gig. And each night, I would learn something more and more on keyboards. And that's how I got started.

GROSS: Well, that's great. And then you started sitting in with Booker T and the MG's.

HAYES: Well, I wound up at Stax Records. I changed bands, and I joined Floyd Newman's band, who was a staff musician at Stax. He played baritone saxophone. All those ba-daps (ph) stuff like that - that was Floyd. So he was up for recording. And he said, man, you know, we're going in the studio. And I had been prior I had been to Stax about three different times with a blues band, with a vocal group, you know, trying to get a break and was always turned down. this time, went in with Floyd and Howard Grimes, a drummer. You know, I wrote some songs and instrumentals and things like that. And Jim Stewart, who, you know, was on a cone of Stax, he said, you know, you sound pretty good on keyboards. Booker T is off in Indiana. You in school. Would you like to become a staff musician here? Yeah.

You know, so that's how I got into Stax. And my first session. I think it was an Otis Redding album session. I was scared to death. But he made it easy. And I learned a lot. And I fit right in. And I became a staff musician. So when Booker came back, he and I both played on sessions. We would switch around sometimes. I'd play organ and he'd play piano. And sometimes I'd play piano, he'd play organ. And with Duck, Steve and Al, we were the nucleus of Stax, the rhythm section, and then of course, the horns and so forth.

GROSS: Now, you were not only a house musician at Stax, you became a house songwriter. And you wrote a lot of songs with your partner then, David Porter. And some of the most famous songs that you wrote were for Sam & Dave, like "Soul Man" and "Hold On, I'm Coming." How were you given them to write for?

HAYES: Well, first thing, David, when I started at Stax on staff, David and I went to rival school singing rival groups. And he said, hey, man. I write lyrics and you play music. Let's hook up and write like Holland-Dozier-Holland. I said, OK. So we teamed up and we started writing. And one day, Jim Stewart called us all - everybody on the staff, said, we got some fellas coming down, and they need some writers and producers. So they're going to come around and meet with everybody and you show them what you got. So when Sam & Dave and them came to town, they, you know, met with everybody. And they wanted to work with David and me. And that's how the whole thing started.

GROSS: What do you remember about writing "Soul Man"?

HAYES: Well, I remember getting the idea from watching TV and the riots in Detroit. And it was said that if you put soul on your door, your business establishment, they would bypass it, wouldn't burn it. And then the word soul, you know, the clenched fist, you know, soul brother, soul this - it was a galvanizing kind of thing as far as, you know, African Americans were concerned. And it had that kind of effect of unity. And they said it with a lot of pride. So I said, well, why not write a tune called "Soul Man"? And all you had to do was write about your own personal experiences. Because, you know, we - everybody, all African Americans in this country during those times especially had similar experiences. So we did that, but realized that in addition to being an African American experience, it was a human experience. So therefore, it crossed the board. And then the groove and everything else that went with it just made it, you know, very, very commercial.

GROSS: So did you arrange this, too?

HAYES: Yes.

GROSS: And are you featured instrumentally?

HAYES: I wasn't featured. I just played piano on it. Well, you know, I did some little hot licks in there and stuff like that, so...

GROSS: OK. Well, let's hear "Soul Man," co-written by my guest, Isaac Hayes.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SOUL MAN")

SAM AND DAVE: (Singing) Coming to you on a dusty road. Good loving - I got a truckload. And when you get it, you got something. So don't worry 'cause I'm coming. I'm a soul man. Oh. I'm a soul man. I'm a soul man. Come on. I'm a soul man. And that ain't all. Got what I got the hard way. And I'll make it better each and every day. So, honey, now, don't you fret 'cause you ain't seen nothing yet. I'm a soul man. Oh, lord. I'm a soul man. Play it, Steve. I'm a soul man. I'm a soul man. Oh. I was brought up...

GROSS: So how come it took several years for you to actually record your own vocals?

HAYES: Well, remember I told you about Nat Cole's story, right?

GROSS: Mmm-hmm (ph).

HAYES: Well, I started singing in high school. I sang before - Nat Cole - when I sang, looking back, that was in the ninth grade. But before ninth grade, preteen, I used to sing, but I sounded like somebody in the Boys - Vienna Boys Choir.

GROSS: (Laughter).

HAYES: My voice was (singing) way up there like that.

And they would call me - oh, man, you a sissy. So when I reached puberty, my voice started cracking and squeaking. And then, when it cleared up, it was down in the basement. So I started singing again. And I was singing jazz during my teenage years. I was singing jazz in a little nightclub. I was singing a blues band. I was singing with a rock 'n' roll group called The Teen Tones. I was singing with a gospel group called The Morning Stars. We had a little combo, and during my senior year, we played.

So I had all this experience. And I would go to Jim Stewart and say, hey, Jim. I want to record. I want to try something. Well, Ike, you know, we're a R&B label, and your voice is too good. It's too good for what we're doing here. So I never did get the shot until one day - it was someone's birthday party at Stax, and we always served champagne and cake. And we had gobbled down some cake, and Duck Dunn and I grabbed a couple of bottles of champagne and ran into the ladies' restroom and closed the door. And we just guzzled this champagne down. I mean, I got a buzz. Came out - Al Bell, who at that time was the head of national promotion - he wound up being executive vice president.

But he said, Ike, I want to cut something on you. OK, yeah. OK. I was feeling no pain. So I - we go in the studio - Al Jackson on drums, Duck on bass and myself on piano. And I said, man, y'all follow me (laughter). It was all impromptu. And we stayed in the studio a few hours. And we finished house. OK, I got what I want. And that was - that wound up being "Presenting Isaac Hayes," my very first album.

DAVIES: Isaac Hayes speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 1994. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ISAAC HAYES SONG, "GROOVE-A-THON")

DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. This week we're listening to some of our favorite music interviews from the FRESH AIR archive. Let's get back to Terry's conversation with Isaac Hayes recorded in 1994.

GROSS: Now, you recorded the theme for the movie "Shaft" in - I guess it was 1971. How were you asked to do this?

HAYES: Well, it was a whole concept. Hollywood recognized that they had to look further than they had been looking to get business. I think it was fledgling at the time. It was a bit stagnant. And Melvin Van Peebles had put out a movie called "Sweetback's Baadasssss Song." And they said, there might be a market there. If we come up with a concept to have a leading - Black leading man, a Black director, maybe a Black composer, we might hit that market. MGM was the one that pioneered the idea, so we had a meeting out there at MGM with Stax execs. And they asked me to come. And they talked about the concept. And would I do the music? Would I be interested in doing the music? Yeah. I said, I want to act, too. And have you all cast for the lead role? Well, no. We'll look into that.

GROSS: (Laughter).

HAYES: But anyway, I think that was a stick and carrot, you know? So...

GROSS: (Laughter) Right.

HAYES: So I agreed to do the music. They had already cast Richard Roundtree, which was rightfully so. He's perfect for the part. And I agreed to do the music. And that's how I - that's how that whole thing, that whole idea came about.

GROSS: And here's where we really get into orchestrating, right?

HAYES: Mmm-hmm.

GROSS: So tell me how you started using that wah-wah guitar funk style.

HAYES: Well, OK - trade secrets. What happened was - I had been doing arranging all the time. I did a lot of arranging with the horns and stuff at Stax. And the first string arrangements I tried was a thing that Dave and I did on Sam & Dave. And that album was, like, a big flop. But we tried it anyway, but I had a taste for it. And once I had tasted the strings, I couldn't let it go. Now, when - sometimes in the studio, you're working on various grooves and stuff and you can't find a name for it, or you can't tag it with anything. You just - if it feels good, you say, OK, I'm going to file that. And you put it up. You put it back, and you store it.

Now, when it was time for me to do the "Shaft" theme, I said, now, what can I do? They - you know, they explained the character to me - you know, a relentless character, always on the move, always on the prowl. And you got to get something to denote that for the main theme. I said, what can I do? I thought about - if you remember Otis Redding's "Try A Little Tenderness," I had a hand in that arrangement, too. In the end, Al Jackson was doing some stuff on the high-hat, some - you know, you got to (vocalizing), you know. So I thought about that. I said, maybe if I just sustain that particular thing on the high-hat, that would give you a dramatic effect as something that's relentless.

Now, what else can I do? I thought about the guitar lick. And I went and pulled it out, played it. And Charles Pitts - we call him Skip. He played the thing on the wah-wah. I said, hey. Play this line. And he started it. And I told Willie, the drummer - I said - Willie Hall, I said, give me that high-hat, man, some 16 notes, you know? (Vocalizing). And he did that. And it worked. I said, that's the kind of dramatic effect I want. Then, I start putting the other things in - you know, the bass, the accents and all that stuff. But that's how that whole wah-wah thing came about.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THEME FROM SHAFT")

HAYES: (Singing) Who's the Black private dick that's a sex machine to all the chicks? Shaft. You're damn right. Who is the man that would risk his neck for his brother man? Shaft. Can you dig it? Who's the cat that won't cop out when there's danger all about? Shaft. Right on. They say this cat Shaft is a bad mother. Shut your mouth. But I'm talking about Shaft. Then, we can dig it. He's a complicated man. But no one understands him here but his woman. John Shaft.

DAVIES: And that was the theme from "Shaft," composed and recorded by Isaac Hayes. Hayes spoke to Terry in 1994. He died in 2008 at the age of 65. Coming up, David Bianculli reviews two new prequels - one to the HBO series "Game Of Thrones" and the other to Peter Jackson's "Lord Of The Rings" films. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF DEEP BLUE ORGAN TRIO'S "TELL ME SOMETHING GOOD")
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. "The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power" premieres today on Amazon Prime Video. Two weeks ago, "House Of The Dragon" premiered on HBO. Both of them are long-awaited prequel series to wildly popular fantasy hits - Peter Jackson's "Lord Of The Rings" movies based on J.R.R. Tolkien's novels and HBO's "The Game Of Thrones" series based on the books by George R.R. Martin. And both of them, it turns out, are among the most expensive TV series ever made. Our TV critic David Bianculli reviews them both.

DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: Neither of these shows is likely to win any new fans, but what they're really focused on is retaining old ones. Both these shows are giant gambles. And HBO's, in some respects, already has paid off. An estimated 10 million viewers watched the premiere episode of "House Of The Dragon," and HBO promptly renewed that "Game Of Thrones" prequel, created by Ryan J. Condal and George R.R. Martin, for a second season. "The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power," created by Patrick McKay and John D. Payne, now follows. And its popularity will be evident soon enough. But I'm more interested in how well these prequels set up and are faithful to the stories they're expanding.

Based on the first two episodes of each, neither show is as great a prequel or as original as, say, "Better Call Saul." But both "House Of The Dragon" and "The Rings Of Power" are very true to their source material and look expensive and expansive. They're also more invested in establishing characters and conflicts than going for spectacle, at least initially. And that's very smart. Despite all the fantasy trappings, both "Lord Of The Rings" and especially "Game Of Thrones" essentially are soap operas at heart. The villains steal the spotlight, and the hostilities are right out in the open.

"The Rings Of Power," borrowing and learning from the final seasons of "Game Of Thrones," hands the narrative over largely to its female characters - a welcome change. The elf who is hunting the realm's biggest source of evil is a woman warrior named Galadriel. When she returns from a quest, her lover Elrond wants to reconnect, but she's interested only in getting the king to replenish her army. Morfydd Clark plays the warrior elf, and Robert Aramayo plays Elrond.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER")

MORFYDD CLARK: (As Galadriel) I'm not some courtier to be placated by idle flattery. I demand to speak with the king directly.

ROBERT ARAMAYO: (As Elrond) You have made that plain. So I will be equally plain. It was not your company who defied you out there, but rather you who defied the high king by refusing to heed any limit placed upon him. In an act of magnanimity, he has chosen to honor your accomplishments rather than dwell on your insolence. And again, you may find him less receptive than you might have hoped.

BIANCULLI: Another prominent storyline with a female focus is set among the Harfoots, a sort of ancestor to the familiar Hobbits. Markella Kavenagh plays Nori Brandyfoot, a curious Harfoot whose questioning nature is challenged and lectured by a village elder, played by Thusitha Jayasundera. Her speech sets the tone for the story, and it's a tone that's very true to the epic narrative it's now joining.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER")

MARKELLA KAVENAGH: (As Nori Brandyfoot) I wonder if there's trouble down south.

THUSITHA JAYASUNDERA: (As Malva) And what concern is that of yours, Elanor Brandyfoot?

KAVENAGH: (As Nori Brandyfoot) Haven't you ever wondered what else is out there? How far the river flows, or where the sparrows learn the new songs they sing in spring? I can't help but feel there's wonders in this world beyond our wondering.

JAYASUNDERA: (As Malva) I've told you countless times. Elves have forests to protect. Dwarfs, their minds. Men, their fields of grain. Even trees have to worry about the soil beneath their roots. But we Harfoots are free from the worries of the wide world. We are but ripples in a long, long stream, our paths set by the passing seasons. Nobody goes off trail, and nobody walks alone. We have each other. We're safe. That is how we survive.

BIANCULLI: Over on "House Of The Dragon," the threat is more immediate and comes in the form of former "Doctor Who" star Matt Smith, who is to this "Game Of Thrones" prequel what Peter Dinklage was to the original - its first and most dynamic standout character. He plays Prince Daemon, a white-haired ancestor of the House Targaryen clan who, at the time of this prequel, has 10 giant dragons under its control. Daemon's ascension to the Iron Throne has been blocked by his brother, King Viserys, who's played by Paddy Considine. And their sibling rivalry is pretty obvious, as the king tells him loudly.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HOUSE OF THE DRAGON")

PADDY CONSIDINE: (As King Viserys) You have no allies at court but me. I have only ever defended you. Yet everything I've given you, you've thrown back in my face.

MATT SMITH: (As Prince Daemon) You've only ever tried to send me away to the Vale, to the City Watch, anywhere but by your side. Ten years you've been king, and yet not once have you asked me to be your hand.

CONSIDINE: (As King Viserys) Why would I do that?

SMITH: (As Prince Daemon) Because I'm your brother.

BIANCULLI: Yet as evil and angry as Daemon is, his niece is brave enough to confront him. She's Princess Rhaenyra, played as a young woman by Milly Alcock. And when Daemon pits his army of men against the kings, the princess swoops in, riding a dragon, and lands herself right between the two armies, defiantly confronting her rebellious relative.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HOUSE OF THE DRAGON")

MILLY ALCOCK: (As Young Princess Rhaenyra) I'm right here, Uncle, the object of your ire, the reason that you were disinherited. If you wish to be restored as heir, you'll need to kill me. So do it, and be done with all this bother.

BIANCULLI: The production values of both series are excellent and should please fans of the original works. But in this early going, so should the stories, and even in a fantasy realm, that's a lot more important.

DAVIES: David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey. He reviewed "The Lord Of The Rings: Rings Of Power" (ph) and "House Of The Dragon." On Monday's show, Labor Day, we conclude our week of favorite music interviews from the FRESH AIR archive with Pete Seeger, one of the most important figures in American folk music, known for his union and protest songs, and with Bruce Springsteen, who interpreted the songs of Pete Seeger in a 2006 album. I hope you can join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PAY ME MY MONEY DOWN")

BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN: (Singing) I thought I heard the captain say, pay me my money down. Tomorrow is our sailing day. Pay me my...

DAVIES: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. For Terry Gross, I'm Dave Davies.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PAY ME MY MONEY DOWN")

SPRINGSTEEN: (Singing) As soon as the boat was clear of the bar, pay me my money down. He knocked me down with a spar. Pay me my money down. Pay me. Pay me. Pay me my money down. Pay me or go to jail. Pay me my money down. Well, if I'd been a rich man's son, pay me my money down.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.