Other segments from the episode on September 1, 2023
Transcript
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. We're wrapping up the 50th anniversary of hip-hop by looking back at some of our most memorable interviews with performers who hold a significant place in history. Our first interview is with RZA, the chief composer and producer of the Wu-Tang Clan, which has often been called one of the most revolutionary rap groups of the mid-'90s. They turned the concept of a hip-hop crew inside out by creating a collective of nine MCs who also created their own music under different pseudonyms. RZA is also known as Prince Rakeem, Bobby Digital, the RZArector and Robert Diggs, which is his birth name. He joined his cousins GZA The Genius and Ol' Dirty Bastard in 1992 to form the Wu-Tang Clan.
Martial arts movies had a big influence on RZA growing up. The name Wu-Tang Clan was inspired by kung fu movies and a mythical martial sword technique. RZA also composed music for several films, including Jim Jarmusch's "Ghost Dog," as well as "Kill Bill" and its sequel, directed by Quentin Tarantino. Recently, RZA was one of the executive producers of the Hulu series "Wu-Tang: An American Saga," which chronicled the rise of the group. The third and final season wrapped up in April. Terry Gross spoke with RZA in 2005 after the release of his book, "The Wu-Tang Manual." We start with the single "C.R.E.A.M." from the Wu-Tang's 1993 debut album.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "C.R.E.A.M.")
WU-TANG CLAN: (Rapping) I grew up on the crime side, The New York Times side. Staying alive was no jive. Had second hands, Mom's bounced on old man. So then we moved to Shaolin land. A young youth, yo, rockin' the gold tooth, 'lo goose. Only way I begin the G off was drug loot. And let's start it like this, son, rollin' with this one and that one, pullin' out gats for fun. But it was just a dream for the teen who was a fiend, started smokin' woolies at 16 and runnin' up in gates and doin' hits for high stakes, makin' my way on fire escapes. No question, I would speed for cracks and weed. The combination made my eyes bleed. No question, I would flow off and try to get the dough...
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS: That's the Wu-Tang Clan. My guest is the RZA. Welcome to FRESH AIR.
RZA: Well, thanks for having me on the show, y'all.
GROSS: Now, you know, in addition to being, you know, an MC and to being one of the rappers with Wu-Tang Clan, you were also the chief producer and arranger. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, composing and sampling the music backing for the records, what your approach is to that?
RZA: Well, my musical knowledge really came from being a DJ. You know, at the age of 11, I got my first pair of turntables - straight-arm Technics - you know what I mean? - the hardest ones that you could scratch on. And I was building up an extensive record collection. Even as a DJ with a 4-track, my production style was similar to the style of the, you know, "36 Chambers," which was taking something from old soul music to something from a funky drum, you know, whether a James Brown or Willie Mitchell-type drum pattern and then come with maybe a Woody Woodpecker record, you know what I mean...
GROSS: Yeah.
RZA: ...And then mix that in with some kind of classical. So I was a kind of DJ that would do that. When I would DJ at parties, you know, when I would interlude between records, I may throw on a "Peter Pan" quote or something and then throw on a crazy, hip-hop gutter beat that makes the crowd go crazy. So when I started producing, I had that same approach.
GROSS: So were you - you know, since you had such a wide variety of musical records that you were drawing from, were any of those records things that you first heard from your parents' record collections?
RZA: Oh, guaranteed. I mean, you know, everything started from what our parents had, of course.
GROSS: So what was in...
RZA: And then for me...
GROSS: ...Your parents' collection?
RZA: Oh, my parents had all the soul records from - you know, from - well, I lived - I had a single mother most of the time. But from The Crusaders to The O'Jays to The Delfonics to The Temptations - you know, I mean? - all the way to - Kenny Rogers was in the crate, you know what I mean? So it was - so my mother was - being a single mother, I guess she probably went through a lot of different feelings and changes, and she had a lot of different artists and records that she would play, you know, over the years. But what made my selection and collection so ill was it wasn't only my parents' records. I was taking everybody's parents' records, you know what I mean?
GROSS: (Laughter).
RZA: I went to Inspectah Deck's house, and his mother had a whole closet full of old records that she gave me. Ghostface's mom's - I mean, people would out - being in New York City in the Village just selling records on the street corner. I mean, I'm the kind of kid that buys everything. I used to buy records everywhere, anywhere, no matter what. And I'm still kind of like that, you know? Now I've collected records from over probably 40 different countries.
GROSS: Let's talk a little bit about how you started composing, because, you know, you first were - you were DJing, basically. You were sampling things from records and playing records under raps, but you actually compose now. So how did you make that transition?
RZA: That was pretty - something that came to being, I think, around 1995, '96. You know, I had a few platinum records under my belt already. I was getting - you know, getting worldwide recognition and really a lot of praises from the music industry and the community about what I did, what I've done, the sound that I was bringing to the table. But I took a look and was like, you know what? Wow. I'm considered a famous musician, but technically, for the false terminology, I'm not a musician because there's not an instrument that I can really say I can play. And so I kind of felt like - I'm one of the kind of people that like to be part of a fraternity because he earned it.
And so I took the time out to start reading books on the music theory and studying chord progressions and the way things should be, because I always heard it, you know? I mean, I always heard it, you know, by listening to songs or if you listen to some of my samples, when hip-hop was only doing one-loop samples or maybe two-bar samples, I came up with the four bars or I came with, you know, sample changes, you know, as if I played it, you know what I mean? I was able to take, you know, three different parts from one song and make it become, you know, an intro, a verse and a chorus. So I had the song structure and arrangement always in my mind, but I had to use other people's music. But around 1996, I decided to start studying the theory and being able to make my own progressions and make my own phrases of music. And that's what started leading into me being a composer.
You know, I always sampled stuff that was similar to that, anyway, and so I wanted to learn how to play it myself, how to express it myself. And I think in 1997, on the "Wu-Tang Forever" album, you first hear me doing things like that. You listen to songs like "Triumph," and you hear how the strings - you know, they come in. They have - you know, they have a - you know, it's played staccato, but it's a rise to it. So it's like (vocalizing). It rises up, and then they would drop out. And then a voice would come in, and then that'll drop out. Then you just hear the guitar hit with the piano. So that was like - during '97 is when I started experimenting with the theory of music, chord progressions and things like that mixed with my sample DJ background. And that's how I produced "Wu-Tang Forever."
GROSS: Well, let's hear "Triumph" from "Wu-Tang Forever." Here it is.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TRIUMPH")
WU-TANG CLAN: (Rapping) I bomb atomically. Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses can't define how I be dropping these mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery. Flee with the lottery, possibly they spotted me. Battle-scarred Shogun, explosion when my pen hits tremendous. Ultraviolet shine blind forensics. I inspect view through the future see millennium. Killa Beez sold 50 gold, 60 platinum, shackling the masses with drastic rap tactics. Graphic displays melt the steel like blacksmiths. Black Wu jackets, Queen Beez ease the guns in. Rumble with patrolmen, tear gas laced the function. Heads by the score take flight, incite a war. Chicks hit the floor. Die-hard fans demand more. Behold the bold soldier, control the globe slowly. Proceeds to blow, swingin' swords like Shinobi. Stomp grounds and pound footprints in solid rock. Wu got it locked, performin' live on your hottest block.
As the world turns, I spread like germs. Bless the globe with the pestilence, the hardheaded never learn. It's my testament to those burned. Play my position in the game of life, standing firm. On foreign land, jump the gun out the frying pan. Into the fire, transform into the Ghost Rider. A six-pack and "A Streetcar Named Desire."
GROSS: That's "Triumph" From the album "Wu-Tang Forever." And my guest is the RZA of the Wu-Tang Clan, also a solo artist. You know, you do something on some of your music that I think you call a detuned piano. And listening to it, I never knew whether it was an electric piano or what, but it has this really distinctive sound. And - in fact, I want to play something from the Jim Jarmusch movie "Ghost Dog: The Way Of The Samurai." And you did the score for this movie. And it's really...
RZA: Yeah. That was my first score.
GROSS: Yeah. And it's really wonderful. Let me play the theme from it.
(SOUNDBITE OF RZA'S "GHOST DOG THEME")
GROSS: That's music from the Jim Jarmusch movie "Ghost Dog: The Way...
RZA: "Ghost Dog."
GROSS: ...Of The Samurai," composed by my guest, the RZA. What are you doing on that? What's the keyboard that we're hearing?
RZA: The keyboard I use for "Ghost Dog" - I use a combination, but I use mostly - it's a keyboard called the Kurzweil 2500. And there's another keyboard called the Ensoniq ASR-10. And the ASR-10 is a sampling keyboard. The KR - the Kurzweil is also a sampling keyboard, but it's made with this thing they call this VAST technology, which is variable architecture synthesis technology. And that means that this particular keyboard can emulate any other keyboard ever created. If you just use the filters and play with the filters, it can emulate any other keyboard, and potentially any instrument, if you know the proper, you know, parameters.
In the "Ghost Dog" theme, the (imitating flute), it sounds like - it's actually was a - it was a partial of a flute sample - just took it out, just one - that one frequency of it and then played across the piano. So that was how I came up with that right there, mixed in with some muddy string pads - you know I mean? - and a muddy string guitar sample (imitating guitar). So it was a pretty awkward combination.
But the sound of it - it's funny, when I made that particular song, the sound of it was to go along with - "Ghost Dog" had a lot of birds in this movie, you know? And we - in studying music, I read about "Peter And The Wolf" and how the composer used an instrument to reflect each animal. For instance, when the wolf came, he threw on the trombones. When the bird came, he threw in the flute. So this is why on the "Ghost Dog" theme, you hear that flute in there, because he had a lot of birds. And when the movie first came on, a bird was flying. So I started with that flute sound so you could feel that joyfulness. But it's also put into a RZA context. It was joy mixed with sorrow and morbid.
GROSS: Morbidity, did you say? Yeah.
RZA: Yes.
GROSS: Well, there's something very eerie about the theme.
RZA: That's what I mean. I think - I meant eerie, then, if morbid and eerie don't mean to same thing.
GROSS: What...
RZA: Do they mean the same thing, morbid...
GROSS: No.
RZA: ...And eerie?
GROSS: Well, eerie is kind of mysterious, and morbid has to do with death. But I think it's both, because the movie has a lot to do with death.
RZA: Right. Well, I'll say eerie, then, and morbid because I wanted to be like - you know, to capture, you know, the spirituality of the bird, but also to capture, like, the internal of Ghost Dog, you know I mean?
GROSS: Yeah. Yeah.
RZA: He's a very troubled individual, really.
GROSS: So you used the word detuned. What do you mean by detuned, and what is detuned in the music we just heard?
RZA: Well, you know, when the piano gets old - right? - and it sits in your studio for a long time, it becomes detuned, meaning, you know, all the notes are maybe - not a half step or maybe a one-eighth of a step just out of tune in the proper chromatic order. And I like that sound. You know, most people come in and go, I need to tune your - I need to tune the keyboard or I need to tune your piano or tune your guitar. I like it when it's detuned because that means it's not in the musical harmony according to the theory of music, but yet it has a harmony of its own. And that's something that I use a lot throughout my - whether I sample the sound or whether I played it, that's the sound I use a lot.
GROSS: And I think one of the reasons why that works when you do it is 'cause you're often using, like, one-note lines.
RZA: Exactly.
GROSS: So there aren't, like, chords that you're playing, 'cause the chords might sound really raggy, but that single-note line, it works really well.
RZA: It carries out (ph).
GROSS: Yeah.
RZA: Yeah, 'cause it's like a person that sings that doesn't really - that's vocal trained. You know, he'll be able to sing and give you all the feelings he want to give you, but he may not be able to sing in the key of A, you know? But he'll be able to sing a song that's in the key of A, and just because of his - if he has a natural style and a good flow, it just somehow meshed all together. I think that's what hip-hop singing is, you know, like a lot of hip-hop artists that sing.
GROSS: Right.
RZA: You hear some of these songs - I know, like, people hear it on the radio like, how is this song on the radio? Or even one of the great hip-hop R&B singers, Mary J. Blige, in her early career, a lot of, you know, trained musicians was like, oh, Mary's always out of tune or - but the hip-hop generation loved it because it was no sound like that. It's - only sound was that was her, you know?
MOSLEY: RZA speaking with Terry Gross in 2005. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF LUIS BACALOV'S "SUMMERTIME KILLER")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. We're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop music this week. Let's get back to Terry's 2005 interview with RZA, who co-founded the Wu-Tang Clan.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: You've had several personas over the years. I mean, your birth name is Robert Diggs. You're known as the RZA. That's a name you took when you co-founded the Wu-Tang Clan. You're also Bobby Digital. And early in your career, you were Prince Rakeem. So let's start with Prince Rakeem. I mean, who - what did you see that persona as being? The music that you made with him is different from Wu-Tang.
RZA: I would say so. With Prince Rakeem - you know what I mean? - I was basically more of a student in the studies of life, shall I say, and as well as definitely a student to the music and the music industry and things like that. But as Prince Rakeem - you know, being young, 17, 18 years old, you know, all you think about is girls, yo, you know what I mean? And I was, you know, a pretty popular guy with the girls. Like, you know, a lot of girls, you know, had good things to say about me. Oh, he's cute. And he always got on some Polo and Gucci. And he's just, you know - and I actually liked to carry myself like a prince. I was the kind of kid that, you know, kept his fingernails right, you know what I mean?
GROSS: (Laughter).
RZA: Wouldn't touch my food without a napkin and, you know, walked like Mr. Spock - had my hands behind my back. I used to walk very straight up and very elegant, you know what I mean? That's how I felt, you know what I mean? And I probably had about 30 different Polo suits that I got, you know, because we had many ways to make hustles back then. But every day, I'll come out with a new suit on. You may see me wear a powder blue Polo suit with a gold chain, you know, gold teeth, you know, just something real fly, you know what I mean? And that was kind of the persona of Prince Rakeem. He was definitely a fly guy, as the world was back in those days.
GROSS: Why don't we hear a 1991 record that you made as Prince Rakeem. And this is "Ooh I Love You Rakeem."
RZA: Oh, no. OK, let's go for it. Come on.
GROSS: OK.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "OOH I LOVE YOU RAKEEM")
RZA: (Rapping) It seems I'm a fiend for a sex routine. Love to hear them scream, ooh, Rakeem. And my response is, oh. Always satisfy them - you know how I flow. With sex, I'm not lazy. I'm buck wild and crazy. I kiss the bosoms but never eat the daisies. And my ladies love me deeply because I'm handsome, charming and freaky. And when they need me, they won't go. And now I'm stuck. I should've said no.
GROSS: OK, so let's move from Prince Rakeem to the RZA. How does the RZA compare to Prince Rakeem?
RZA: Well, when I came with Wu-Tang Clan and the first single was called "Protect Ya Neck." And you'll notice in the video, it's like exit Prince Rakeem and enter the RZA, because it was no time for me to be a pretty boy. It was no time for me to be this elegant guy that was, you know, into the ladies and into how I dressed and into how I looked. I became the RZA, basically, which was a total rebel, really - you know what I mean? - you know, somebody that had it with society and that was coming to get his fair take of society.
You notice when I came in as the RZA, I was - you know, came very militant in my look. I was very militant in my action. I just went through so much different personal traumas as far as with the law, with my life, with people in the streets, the hood. And I basically made a Z, you know what I mean? I made the first curve in my Z, shall I say. And I was like, you know, I'm no longer Prince Rakeem. That's part of my attribute, but I'm going to be the RZA - you know what I mean? - because, you know, that means I was strictly dealing with focusness.
It's funny because I didn't even, like, care how I dressed. I didn't even change my clothes that often, you know what I mean? I just was this one focused individual that was built on making a legacy for himself. And the Z in mathematics - you know what I mean? - because, you know, I study mathematics. And the Z stands for the zig-zag-zig, which represents knowledge, wisdom and understanding. It means, like, you could go this way, and sometimes you're going to have to zag back because you've got to go back and check on yourself. But then you realize you was going the right way in the beginning, so you zig again.
And that shows you that sometimes you may know something, and you can understand it, but if you don't live through it, you know, it's not fully understood by you. And so that zag is me living it out. And when I zagged, you know, I went through so much troubles of life and life experiences. So now I have the experience, so now I had to zig again. And that's what really put that Z in my name. I was like, you know what? I done went this way, that way, and now I understand which way I got to walk. And I actually walked a very straight, narrow line from the day that I took that title, the RZA. I didn't really, you know, commit sins or - just I was a real straightforward, focused, determined individual. And I gave myself a five-year period - you know what I mean? - to make sure I stayed on that path. And that's what I did.
GROSS: And after the five years?
RZA: Well, after the five years, which - I basically had took that name in 1992. And then by 1997, my idea was I would be on the top, you know, that - you know, musically. You know, and what I stood for would be the top of the top in the world. And I think, in '97, it happened. I think in 1997, Wu-Tang made a No. 1 record or something like that, was the No. 1 hip-hop group, No. 1 selling hip-hop group at the time, you know, nominated for Grammys and all that, you know, and really, the No. 1 influential groups at that time. So it actually kind of came to fruition from that five-year plan.
GROSS: Well, I really want to thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it.
RZA: Thank you for having me.
MOSLEY: RZA of the Wu-Tang Clan speaking with Terry Gross in 2005. Next up, our archived interview with Andre 3000. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PROTECT YA NECK")
WU-TANG CLAN: (Rapping) Yo, chill with the feedback, Black, we don't need that. It's 10 o'clock, hoe, where the [expletive] is your seed at? Feeling mad hostile, ran the apostle, flowing like Christ when I speaks the gospel. Stroll with the holy roll, then attack the globe with the buckest style, the ruckus. Ten times ten men committing mad sin. Turn the other cheek and I'll break your [expletive] chin. Slaying boom-bangs like African drums. We'll be coming around the mountain when I come. Crazy flamboyant for the rap enjoyment. My clan increase like Black unemployment. Yeah, another one dare - Genius, take us the [expletive] out of here. The Wu is too slamming for these cold-killing labels - some ain't had hits since I seen Aunt Mabel - be doing artists in like Cain did Abel. Now they money's getting stuck to the gum under the table.
(SOUNDBITE OF HOTEI'S "BATTLE WITHOUT HONOR OR HUMANITY")
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. We're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop this week. Next, we feature our interview with Andre Benjamin, aka Andre 3000, half of the duo Outkast, along with Antoine Patton, aka Big Boi. Their debut album, "Southernplayalisticadillacmusic," released 29 years ago, helped put Southern hip-hop on the map. "Player's Ball" from the album hit No. 1 on the Billboard chart.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PLAYER'S BALL")
SLEEPY BROWN: (Singing) All the players came from far and wide, wearing afros and braids, kicking them gangster rides. Now, I'm here to tell you there's a better way when the player ball is happening all day, every day.
OUTKAST: (Rapping) Hallelujah. Hallelujah. You know, I do some things much different than I used to 'cause I'm a player doing what the players do. The package store was closed.
MOSLEY: Outkast's 2003 album "Speakerboxxx/The Love Below," which included the hit "Hey Ya!," sold 11 million copies and won three Grammys. In all, they've released seven albums, most of them platinum. Andre 3000 is known for his depth and, in the early 2000s, his exuberance in style. Esquire once named him the world's best-dressed man. He's collaborated with Beyonce, Lil Wayne, Drake and Frank Ocean, and he's also been an actor, appearing in films like "Be Cool" and "Four Brothers" and on the TV shows "The Shield" and "American Crime." In 2006, he co-created, wrote the music for and voiced the main character of the Cartoon Network animated series "Class Of 3000." When Terry spoke with him, they had just made the movie "Idlewild" and wrote the soundtrack, which was a hybrid of hip-hop and jazz. Andre also starred in it. Here's a song from the soundtrack.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "IDLEWILD BLUE (DON'TCHU WORRY 'BOUT ME")
OUTKAST: (Vocalizing). (Singing) People, people, don't you worry about me. Evil don't get buried by me. Well, I'm going to choo-choo out of this little town. And soon as I do, I'ma (ph) get down. Come on.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS: Now, you said you wanted to, like, branch out from rapping because rapping's a young man's game. And one of the things you've been doing lately is acting. And you starred - along with Big Boi, Andre Patton (ph) from Outkast, you starred in the film "Idlewild," which is set in a Georgia speakeasy, you know, during Prohibition. And you're the piano player at the speakeasy. And even though it's the kind of speakeasy at which fights are constantly breaking out, the production numbers in it are as lavish as if it were the Cotton Club of Harlem.
ANDRE 3000: Ah. Thank you.
GROSS: And I thought we could hear - before we talk more about the movie, I thought we could hear the song that, in the movie, is the production number that plays at the very end of the film behind the closed credit music.
ANDRE 3000: "PJ And Rooster."
GROSS: And you're at the piano in this at the start in a beautiful, like, tuxedo. And then you leave the piano to, like, sing and dance. And there are scantily clad chorus line of dancers behind you and there's stairways with dancers going up and down the stairs, like in the old production numbers.
ANDRE 3000: Yeah.
GROSS: So this is a fantastic song. Let's hear it, and then we'll talk.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PJ AND ROOSTER")
OUTKAST: (Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel like that. No. Monkeys on my back crawl. Now watch them all fall. Go on. Fall. Look out. Nobody wanted to dance when I had a lot of time on my hands. Now I got a lot of hands on my time, and everybody want to be a friend of mine. Whoa. Whoa. I wouldn't mind a friend. The fellows back home all trying to win. Moon keeps shining on bootleg bottles. Cops in the street - keep your feet on the throttle. Selling what you got - can't afford they model, yelling, go, PJ, go. Ain't no idle.
GROSS: That's Andre Benjamin from the film "Idlewild." Is this the kind of song that you would have written yourself if it wasn't for this movie?
ANDRE 3000: Yes and no. Believe it or not, that song is about six years old.
GROSS: Really?
ANDRE 3000: And yeah. Originally, it was a guitar-based song, and it was kind of just me and the beat playing a guitar. And I had some of the lyrics even five years ago. And when we were doing this movie, I thought it worked perfectly. And so I had to change the production a little bit and make it more piano-based because electric guitars - I mean, they were invented back then, but they weren't really where they are now. And I added a second and third verse. And Big Boy, you know, came on and put his thing on it, make it what it is now.
So, yes, I mean, even the lyric, you know, ain't nobody like my style, you know, I light my fire; they blow it out - you know, that was something that Andre 3000 was actually feeling, you know, five years ago before the movie came about. So it just so happened that when the movie came around, Percival was going through the same thing that Andre 3000 was going through. So it made total sense. And just the singing style was different because the way I sang it before - it wouldn't work for 1930. So, you know, by listening to a lot of Cab Calloway things, you know, it was like, big voice, big throat, like, huge production, horns, you know? And so I just made it into what it is now.
GROSS: I love the way you talk about Andre 3000 as if he were a person that you knew, you know?
ANDRE 3000: Well, I know him sometimes, you know? He change, though.
GROSS: He's your persona for the band Outkast. So how do you see Andre 3000 as compared to yourself, Andre Benjamin?
ANDRE 3000: I guess if you can imagine, like, if you're a kid and you're in the mirror and you're playing dress-up and you're this other character and as soon as your mom walks in, you change back into that person - and so Andre Benjamin was the kid that sat there and say, hey. What can I play? And he's in the mirror, and he's putting on his cowboy and Indian suit. Once he puts on his outfits or once - you know, once he starts to play and get into his kind of fun head, he's Andre 3000, you know? So Andre 3000 is that character within Outkast that kind of just goes there and has a ball, you know, does his thing. Andre Benjamin is, you know, the person that goes to Whole Foods, you know, that goes to the mall, you know, goes to the dry cleaners, you know, pumps gas. You know, that's my mama name. My mama gave me that name - Andre Lauren Benjamin.
GROSS: And where does the 3000 come from?
ANDRE 3000: Around 1999, right before it was, you know, about to turn into 2000, you know, the whole world was going crazy. Oh, man, my computers are going to change over. And they're going, we're all going to die. And, you know, everything's going to go kaput. And so 3000 actually means the year 3000, you know, 3000 A.D. kind of to look ahead and to to keep myself excited. So the 3000 was tacked on to Andre because I have a kind of like a personality where I get bored really fast, so I have to find stuff to keep myself interested. And that's where the cowboys and Indians come in.
GROSS: Now, you know, the music that you were that you wrote for "Idlewild" or that you changed for for "Idlewild" draws on music - a lot of different kinds of music, you know, like funk and hip-hop but also early jazz. Did working on that movie expose you to music that you otherwise might not have listened to?
ANDRE 3000: Of course. You know, growing up, I mean, I've always, you know, heard '30s and '40s music, but it was always, you know, in some other picture. It was always kind of, like, background music. Like, I can't say that I just ride around listening to 1930s, '40s music. I think the quality and the production, you know, is kind of different from what I'm used to right now. So when preparing for the role for Percival in "Idlewild," I had to go meet morticians. You know, I had to go to funeral homes to actually see how these people live, talk to them.
GROSS: He plays a mortician. That's why. Yeah.
ANDRE 3000: Yeah. Yes, yes. I play a mortician in "Idlewild." So in preparing for the role, I had to go talk to morticians and had to sit down and ask them about their life. And I also had to get into the time frame of what was going on. So I watched a couple of movies from, you know, the '30s, '40s era, you know, things like "Casablanca," a lot of Busby Berkeley movies, "Stormy Weather," you know, things of that nature. And I listened to a lot of music and mainly Cab Calloway. And it's funny because if you listen to Cab Calloway's music, he was actually rapping back in those times. But the sounds, you know, the big band sound, is - I was introduced to it by the by the movie because I was never into it. So just to hear that kind of instrumentation, even though in Outkast's music, I've been producing songs that had, you know, horns before and, you know, those sounds, I mean, it's the arrangements, you know? So it's the horn blast, and it's the way that the parts are written that are different. So every song wasn't, like, this huge big band song. I mean, some of them had beats to them. You know, some of them had - I guess the stylings were kind of a funky version of 1930s.
GROSS: Now, you're a character who is this kind of shy piano player at the speakeasy, says about having to play there when he's forced into the spotlight during one scene - he says, I hate the spotlight. And I can't imagine you ever saying you hate the spotlight. You seem to just love performing so much and seem to have these kind of, like, old-style show business values of loving to, like, sing and dance with costumes.
ANDRE 3000: That's where the cowboys and Indians come in.
GROSS: Right (laughter).
ANDRE 3000: Once again.
GROSS: Yeah.
ANDRE 3000: It's funny because when Bryan - Bryan Barber, who's the director and writer of "Idlewild" - I've known him...
GROSS: Who also directed your your "Hey Ya!" video.
ANDRE 3000: Right. And "Roses" and a couple of others. But, you know, I've known Bryan since he was in film school in Atlanta at Clark. And, you know, he'd come to parties. And, you know, he'd say, hey, man, I want you to be in my movie. And this is when we first came out. And he said, hey, I want you in this movie. Check out this script. Or, you know, let's get down - let's get together and, you know, just come up with some ideas or whatever. So Bryan has known me for a long time. He's known me. He's known Big Boi for a long time. So when we were putting this movie together, he knows our personalities that a lot of people don't know.
You know, and it's funny you say that I seem like, OK, I love to jump on stage, and I love to, you know, do the whole Hollywood - I love to sing and love to dance and love the spotlight and love to pose. And that's kind of not true. You know, It's kind of - I started doing music because I liked to do it, and I didn't know what I was getting into. So when he says, you know, I'm forced into a situation, I'm not really forced into it, but I kind of painted myself into a corner where I have to do it. But I do like to do music. But a lot of things that come along with it, you know, I'm not really a fan of. I just like to do great work. I like to create stuff. So be it music, film, whatever, you know, if the end product is good, you know, I'm loving it.
MOSLEY: Andre 3000 of the hip-hop group Outkast speaking with Terry Gross. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF OUTKAST SONG, "DYIN' TO LIVE")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: One of the things that you have to learn as an actor is how to project vulnerability 'cause there are roles you're going to play in which you're vulnerable. And that's certainly the case in some scenes in "Idlewild," for example. And vulnerability is, in some ways, exactly the kind of thing that a lot of rappers try to not express, rappers on the whole. I mean, I think a lot of wrappers try to look - try to maintain a very tough and hardened persona.
ANDRE 3000: Right.
GROSS: So I'm wondering, was there a transition for you of exposing more vulnerability both in your music and in your acting?
ANDRE 3000: Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, not just in rap, I mean, in life, period. I mean, when I started off, I mean, we were just, you know, straight street rappers, you know? And I do understand where it comes from. I mean, a lot of actors have a heart. A lot of music guys or rappers have a hard time, you know, getting rid of this character that they've built up, you know, their whole career. And I don't think it's a thing of, you know, them pretending or trying to be hard to put on. But it's like the street life - it won't allow you to show, you know, that soft side because, I mean, you'll get trampled, you know, just in the street. And so you have to - you have to kind of toughen up or man up in a certain kind of way. And if you built your whole career on letting people know, you know, that I don't play and you have to get into a character that does play or that does let other emotions come out, I mean, that may be a hard step, but even before I started doing film, I mean, in life, I mean, I knew I had to take my music other places because, once again, I got bored of doing the same thing, so I got deeper and deeper into my music. And when I got deeper and deeper into my music, I mean, I had to expose certain sides of myself. And even when you look at "Speakerboxxx" and "The Love Below," the love below was just that. That was the meaning of "The Love Below." I mean, like, on the top of a man, I mean, you have this kind of hard shell or this kind of - you know, I'm tough, and nothing can hurt me. But the love below is those feelings that every man feels when he goes home, you know, and he thinks about these things, you know, and he thinks about his life. He thinks about his woman. He thinks about his kid. And - I mean, and there's no room to be tough there, you know? So that's what "The Love Below" is about.
So when it came time to act, it wasn't that much of a step because I knew that you have to - to be an actor, I mean, you can't act. I mean, that's the key. Once you act, people can see you acting, and that's not good, you know? I talked to Mark Wahlberg, who kind of - you know, I think he's done the transition the best, you know, where people actually consider him more an actor than a music guy, you know? And he said, man, I had to - and he's from the hardest parts of Boston. And he said, man, I had to make a point where I was like, man, I'm going - am I going to put on for my homeboys in the neighborhood, or am I going to go out here and just do what I have to do?
GROSS: Well, OK, so you were saying that, you know, in your CD, "The Love Below" - that that means the person - like, the person beneath the tough veneer and the emotions beyond that tough exterior.
ANDRE 3000: Right.
GROSS: So let me play, like, the really big hit from this, which is "Hey Ya!," your song. And, I mean, this song is, like, so much fun. And I guess fun is one of the things that would not be good if you're trying to have that really tough exterior, yes?
ANDRE 3000: Yeah. And it's funny you say that because in the "Hey Ya!" video, I mean, I had a lot of fun doing it. And you can see a lot of smiles, you know? And I got a lot of feedback from just that alone. You know, a lot of DJs and a lot of people on the street - they were like, man, that's cool. But, like, I ain't seen a rapper smile in a long time, you know? And I think smiling is powerful, you know? I mean, I think - I mean, come on. God gave you teeth. He gave you lips. He gave you emotions. Come on. Smile now. I mean, you ain't tough 24/7. You know, that's just not true if you want to keep it real. Now, that's keeping it real.
GROSS: Well, before we hear "Hey Ya!," would you just talk a little bit about putting this together, like, writing the song? You play all of the instruments except bass on it, I think.
ANDRE 3000: Right.
GROSS: So can you talk about, like, conceiving the record and, you know, conceiving the song and then the music happening behind the song?
ANDRE 3000: With "Hey Ya!," that song was three years old before the public heard it. So a lot of times, like, I'll start a song, just a rough idea, and I'll move on to something else. And the song was just not ready for the people at the time. Sometimes it takes, you know, just that time to incubate or whatever. And so when I was working on "The Love Below," I had a theme in my head, you know? It was about love. It was about emotions. So even when people are listening to "Hey Ya!" and dancing around and, you know, they think it's crazy and they think it's fun, if you really pay attention to the lyrics, it's really a pretty dark song, you know? So it has that kind of, I guess - what do you call it? - that dichotomy, that kind of - it's dark on one end, and it's light on the other end. But when putting it together, it was pretty much just me at home with my guitar, and I was playing these chords over and over and over again. I'm not a great guitar player, so these were some of the first chords that I ever learned. And, you know, during that time, you know, I was into a lot of garage, a lot of punk music. And I was just going for it. And so this was my interpretation of what I thought those sounds were. And the lyrics - usually they start from me messing around on my guitar playing, and I'll just start to kind of baby talk lyrics, you know? And I usually record myself on a micro cassette recorder. And so, you know, I'll be, (singing inaudibly), you know? And then I'll listen to it back and damn near translate what I'm saying, you know? Like, I almost have to decode my yippity-yap (ph), and that's what comes out, you know? My baby don't mess around because she loves me so. You know, and that's what came out, and it just starts to make sense after a while. And then I came back three years later working on the "Speakerboxxx/Love Below" album and came back with the second verse. And then the, you know, Polaroid part - you know, that was kind of just a freestyle actually, in the studio. And Beyonce's video was on the screen when I was doing the song. I forget which video it was, but I thought it was an amazing video. And she was showing plenty of attitude. And so that's how she crept her way into the song. You know, when it says, now all the Beyonces and Lucy Lius, those were actually commercials or scenes that were on the TV when I was in the vocal booth. And they crept their way into into the song.
GROSS: So you're describing how you speak in almost, you know, like, baby talk when you were first...
ANDRE 3000: Right.
GROSS: ...Writing the melody for the song. Is the hey ya part of the original baby talk?
ANDRE 3000: Yeah. I'm trying to remember. Hey ya - yes. Yes. And that's probably why it's hey ya - because I really didn't have any words. So you just - hey ya, you know?
GROSS: Well, it works; doesn't it (laughter)?
ANDRE 3000: And then you fine-tune it, and you know it's saying, hey ya. You kind of - it's kind of like really listening to another language. And then you listen back to it and say, OK, now what is he saying? What is he saying? And then you make it out. You know, you're being a translator. And that's what happens. A lot of people get the song mistake, and they say, oh, man, I love that "Hey Now" song. Like, well, it's Hey Ya!"
GROSS: Well, here it is. And this is Andre Benjamin from the Outkast album "Speakerboxxx/The Love Below."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HEY YA!")
OUTKAST: (Singing) One, two, three. Oh. My baby don't mess around because she loves me so. And this I know for sure. But does she really want to but can't stand to see me walk out the door? Don't try to fight the feeling 'cause the thought alone is killing me right now. Thank God for Mom and Dad for sticking two together 'cause we don't know how. Hey ya. Hey ya. Hey ya. Hey ya. Hey ya. Hey ya. Hey ya. Hey ya. You think you've got it. Oh, you think you've got it. But got it just don't get it till there's nothing at all. We get together. Oh, we get together. But separate's always better when there's feelings involved. If what they say is, nothing is forever, then what makes, then what makes, then what makes, then what makes, what makes, what makes love the exception? So why, oh, why, oh, why, oh, why, oh, why, oh are we so in denial when we know we're not happy here?
MOSLEY: That's Andre Benjamin, aka Andre 3000, of Outkast on one of their big hits. We'll hear more of his interview with Terry Gross after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF DUKE ELLINGTON'S "MOOD INDIGO")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and we're celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Andre 3000 of the duo Outkast.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: We were talking before about how as a rapper, a lot of people have a very kind of tough image and that you kind of have to if you live in tough neighborhoods. Otherwise, people are going to take advantage of you. One of the things that you do is you design clothes, and you wear a lot of very kind of extravagant theatrical clothes, you know, on stage and in videos, in movies. And I'm wondering how that fits in with, like, the tough exterior that you needed to have when you were growing up. Did you wear theatrical clothes when you were young, or is that an indulgence you couldn't afford 'cause it would have been too weird?
ANDRE 3000: Well, no, actually, in high school - I mean, it was still all about style. Like, in Atlanta, it was called, you know, being a prep. And when you're a prep, it's kind of like - it was like a closed culture. And we were considered what you would call, like, lowheads. And this was - even though, you know, Ralph Lauren, I think he started in '67, he was kind of like the general of this whole stylesman, you know, thing. And as a kid, you know, that's all we wanted to be.
We wanted to look like - you know, we wanted to look like we we had it, look like we went to college. And so everybody - we were into clothes, and we did certain things with them, like, in our own funky kind of way. Like, you would take pants, and we would dye them different colors. Or we'd wear, you know, two or three different-colored polo shirts on top of each other just so we can have color combinations and all this type of stuff. So it was real - it was a real style thing. So that's always been in me. But I think people get the stage antics and the stage wear, I think, mixed up with streetwear.
You know, when you're on stage, you know, you - I mean, you wear the white wigs, or you wear, you know, these Indian, you know, no shirt and, you know, huge furry pants or whatever. I mean, but those are not things that happen on the street, though, you know? So to answer your question, they don't fit in. You know, that doesn't fit in with it, but at the same time, the attitude that you do it with - you know, some of the hardest people on the street, you know, they come up to me and be like, man, you know, I love what you do. And I think it comes from the attitude of what you're wearing, not actually what you're wearing.
GROSS: Well, Andre Benjamin, thank you so much for talking with us.
ANDRE 3000: Thank you for having me on the show.
MOSLEY: Andre 3000 of Outkast spoke to Terry Gross in 2006. On Monday's show, we'll conclude our series of hip-hop interviews with Jay-Z, regarded as one of the most successful rappers of all time. I hope you can join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineers Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Charlie Kaier. We'll close out with music by Cab Calloway, who Andre 3000 said he was listening to in preparation for the movie soundtrack "Idlewild." For Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "EVERYBODY EATS WHEN THEY COME TO MY HOUSE")
CAB CALLOWAY: (Singing) Have a banana, Hannah. Try the salami, Tommy. Get with the gravy, Davy. Everybody eats when they come to my house. Try a tomato, Plato. Here's cacciatore, Dory. Taste the bologna, Tony. Everybody eats when they come to my house. I fix your favorite dishes. Hopin' this good food fills ya. Work my hands to the bone in the kitchen alone. You better eat if it kills ya.
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