Bob Balaban: Defending 'Hopeless Pictures'

DATE August 16, 2005 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Jim Jarmusch discusses his new film "Broken Flowers"
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest Jim Jarmusch is one of the most respected independent filmmakers in
America. He wrote and directed such films as "Coffee and Cigarettes," "Ghost
Dog," Dead Man," "Down by Law" and "Stranger Than Paradise." His new film,
"Broken Flowers," won the Grand Prix at this year's Cannes Film Festival. It
stars Bill Murray as Don Johnston, a man who made a lot of money in the
software business and leads a pretty empty life sitting home in front of a big
state-of-the-art TV. His latest girlfriend has just walked out on him. But
soon he gets a mysterious, unsigned letter from a former lover, who claims
that Johnston unknowingly fathered a son with her and that this teen-age son
has left home and may be searching for his father.

Don Johnston has no idea which of his exes from that era of his life wrote the
letter. His neighbor convinces him to go on a road trip visiting each of the
exes who might have written it. In this scene, Murray is visiting a former
lover played by Sharon Stone. They're sitting at the dinner table along with
her seductive teen-age daughter, who is named Lolita.

(Soundbite of "Broken Flowers")

Mr. BILL MURRAY: (As Don Johnston) So what--where do you work?

Ms. ALEXIS DZIENA: (As Lolita) Oh, Mom has her own business, right?

Ms. SHARON STONE: (As Laura) Yeah.

Mr. MURRAY: (As Johnston) Really?

Ms. STONE: (As Laura) I'm a professional closet organizer.

Mr. MURRAY: (As Johnston) Come on.

Ms. STONE: (As Laura) I organize people's closets. I even do their drawers.
I label everything. I get them all organized. I even color coordinate them.

Ms. DZIENA: (As Lolita) Yeah, and they pay her for that. It's amazing.

Mr. MURRAY: (As Johnston) Hm.

Ms. STONE: (As Laura) Mm-hmm. (Sighs) Lolita, I said you--Lolita, I said you
could have a taste. Now, come on, that's enough of that. That's not cool.

Mr. MURRAY: (As Johnston) Lolita. Interesting choice of name, Laura.

Ms. DZIENA: (As Lolita) What?

GROSS: Jim Jarmusch told me that the film's premise of tracking down old
girlfriends was suggested to him by a couple of friends. I asked if the idea
of revisiting his early life by tracking down old girlfriends was a compelling
fantasy for him.

Mr. JARMUSCH: No, it's not. In fact, it's pretty foreign to me because I
generally don't like looking back. I don't like going into the past. I
adamantly refuse to look at my films once they're finished, for example.
I've never gone back and looked at them. It's funny, it's not really
the--the elements of the story are not personal to me. The paternity thing
is not some driving thing for me. This looking back is not something really
in my nature. So it's kind of odd.

It was also very odd for me to start a story with a character that I didn't
connect with really at all. And I've never really done that before. Other
characters I write, you know, even if they're damaged or twisted, in some way
I feel for them. You know, I have some love for them. And Don Johnston, you
know, I just could care less. I feel a million miles away from him in the
beginning of the story. So it was kind of odd for me.

But it did lead me to something interesting. After I finished shooting and I
was pretty exhausted, I went straight into the editing with Jay Rabinowitz,
who I edit with. And I walked in and said, `Jay, you know, I think we have to
edit this film backwards and start with the ending because I don't--it's a
delicate film to build, and I don't--you know, I designed it so that I don't,
for some reason, care for the character in the beginning.' So we actually
edited the film in reverse and didn't really see it from front to back until,
like, six weeks into the cutting.

GROSS: And what did that do for you, editing it that way?

Mr. JARMUSCH: It helped me find out where the guy was going because it is a
kind of a quiet, delicate film in, you know, the way I see it, and it's kind
of accumulative. And it's also one reason I wrote it, you know, thinking of
Bill because I know Bill Murray could pull this off. So it allowed us to find
the kind of emotional tone where the film was going to rather than start from
the beginning and--you know, and it's very odd. This film--if someone else
edited it, it could have had a very, very different tone. So I was very, very
careful about the tone of the film emotionally and the actors' little moments
and just kind of--you know, picking the right takes and moments was very, very
delicate, more so than other films I've made.

GROSS: There's a scene where Bill Murray is just sitting still in his living
room, and Marvin--he's playing a Marvin Gaye record.

Mr. JARMUSCH: Yeah.

GROSS: And we hear the entire song as he basically continues to sit still.
Can you talk a little bit about shooting that scene and why you wanted to? I
mean, it's--What?--a two-and-a-half, three-minute song. Nothing happens
except Bill Murray continues to sit there. And it's a wonderful film moment,
and at the same time it's a kind of almost anti-film moment because it's so
static.

Mr. JARMUSCH: Yeah, it's--I'm glad you mentioned it because in a lot of ways
it's my favorite scene in the film. It's the song "I Want You," Marvin Gaye.
And we didn't use the entire song because I think it's five, six minutes long,
but it's a good minute-and-a-half, two-minute scene of Bill Murray's
character, Don Johnston, just sitting in his house. He has a bottle of
champagne opened, a glass of champagne poured, which he never touches. And
it's the--you know, this whole trip has been designed for him by his neighbor,
Winston, played by Jeffrey Wright, to visit these old girlfriends. And he
keeps saying, `I'm not doing this. I would never do this.' But we kind of
see that, you know, he's becoming a little bit obsessed or preoccupied.

And this scene is kind of his little space where he's really contemplating
this thing. And so I didn't want it to say, really, anything but that. And
Bill did such beautifully minimal things with his hands. At one point he
maybe appears to maybe reach for the champagne glass but decides against it.
And he's just kind of drifting around with this very lush kind of romantic,
sexual music, you know, swirling around him. And, I don't know, I like that
scene a lot. It's really a kind of insight into his stasis as a character and
his past by the music. And, I don't know, I was very--really happy with Bill,
what he did with very tiny things.

GROSS: It's scenes like that that make me think of your movies as, like,
poems. And I don't mean that, like, `Oh, it's so poetic.' But I mean it in
the sense that a lot of your movies are really about tones and moods and
moments more than they are about long, complicated narratives.

Mr. JARMUSCH: Yeah. Well, I appreciate that, you know. And I think of my
work, when I do think of it--you know, comparing it to books in a bookstore,
I really think of my films as sort of slim volumes of poetry in the back of
the store rather than, like, the big best-sellers being displayed in the
front, you know? So I do take that as a compliment. And I do hope my films
have something poetic rather than prosaic about them. But, again, I don't
want to go too far analyzing them myself. But, you know, they are sort of
cumulative, and small things resonate, hopefully.

It's odd to me--like, I think that "Broken Flowers" is a kind of sad film, but
it has a lot of funny stuff in it, you know. But I don't think of it really
as a comedy, and yet audiences are finding it very funny, which I like very
much because the humor in the film isn't the result of, like, gags or big
jokes but of small behavioral, you know, things people do. So I'm really
happy that they find it funny. But there's something else in it besides being
funny, for me. And, also, you know, the ending of the film is--it doesn't
really wrap things up, and I think it leaves people in a place where they
can't quite immediately formalize their reaction. And I also like that a lot.

GROSS: The movie stars Bill Murray, who was also featured in your previous
film "Coffee and Cigarettes." What were the qualities you saw in him that you
wanted to work with?

Mr. JARMUSCH: Well, you know, I think he is really one of our finest actors
of--you know, he can do things so--I don't know how to put it, you know. He
never pushes anything when he's play--you know, if you don't want him to. And
the smallest reactions are so expressive and complete. And it's funny
because, you know, people keep saying, `Oh, well, Bill Murray--you know, now
he's gone into this other mode and "Rushmore" and "Lost in Translation" and
"The Life Aquatic" and now "Broken Flowers." You know, he's looking for this
other part of himself.' But, you know, I don't really see that.

I see that he's been working on that all along. And I know that he came from
Second City, and he learned to react to things very quickly. And he is very,
very observant of other people and their--he's very sensitive to other people
and what they feel, you know. So I think he's been doing this for quite a
while.

And what I think is funny is that, you know, maybe younger people will know
him more from Wes' films and Sofia's film and my film and then will find out,
you know, `Wait. You mean that's the guy that was in, like, "Caddyshack" and
"Meatballs?"' you know. And that might be part of Bill's master plan. I
don't know. But I think he's been, you know, developing this very delicate
side of his acting ability for a long time. And I just kind of reduced it
maybe even further than some of the previous characters he played and kept him
very, very minimal and just let his face and his instincts, you know, guide
his reactions as an actor. So he really came out with a beautiful
performance.

GROSS: Now what about directing him? Were there certain--is directing him
different than directing other actors?

Mr. JARMUSCH: Well, directing all actors, it's different for every actor, you
know. There's no one way to direct actors, and there's no one way for one
director to direct all actors. So you find something--a way to collaborate
with each person that's very different. And they come from different, you
know, procedures. Bill doesn't like to rehearse. He likes to talk about the
character. He likes to talk about things that maybe don't even immediately
relate to the character but lead us to the character. Bill and I prepared by
talking a lot. We took one long walk about two or three hours through
Manhattan at night one night, and that was really our biggest collaboration in
terms of finding the character.

And then on the set, you know, you just have to make Bill--you have to allow
him to walk in and have it fresh, you know? And he stayed very close to the
dialogue in the script, which was sort of surprising to me because I kept
thinking, `But don't you want to make it better? Can't you, you know, help me
with this dialogue?' And often he'd say, `No, no, this is good. I like
this.' So he stayed pretty close to the dialogue in the script. But, you
know, other actors that he had scenes with, like Jeffrey Wright, who's an
amazing actor--he has a very different process. He likes to prepare and go
over the scene and the lines. And Bill--you can't do that because that will
kill the scene for Bill.

So, you know, it's a tricky thing. And directing any actor, you know, you're
part psychologist, but you're really collaborating with them. So you have to
find a way that the two of you can approach the character together. And,
really, it's way different for every actor.

GROSS: My guest is Jim Jarmusch. He wrote and directed the new film "Broken
Flowers." We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: My guest is Jim Jarmusch, and his new movie is "Broken Flowers."

Lynn Hirschberg wrote a profile of you recently in The New York Times
Magazine, and she described you as the last major, truly independent filmmaker
in America. Do you feel that way about yourself?

Mr. JARMUSCH: I try not to think about myself in that kind of wide
perspective. And, no, I don't think that way because my definition of
independent is, you know, the originator of the story of the film being
its--you know, having control over it creatively. And there are a lot of
people who do that. And people are able to do that even in sort of studio
conditions. I mean, the Cohen brothers and Spike Lee, who are sort of of my
generation, have been able to do that. And there are a lot of younger
directors, like Sofia and Wes Anderson and PT. Anderson and Alexander Payne,
that, I think, have final cut over their films or are, you know, completely
responsible for them. If so, they are independent to me.

So, you know, I'm not even sure if that's the same definition other people
would use but--because I think of myself as an amateur filmmaker in that I do
it because I love the form rather than a professional filmmaker that does it
as, you know, as my career or for my profession. So I don't know. I'm not
quite sure how to react to that. And I kind of live in my own little sphere
as far as, you know, where--my place in the world. That always seems very
strange to me and kind of funny.

GROSS: Since some of your films are about--this is changing the subject a
little bit. Since some of your films are about facing death or facing that
life itself can sometimes feel like a void, I just wanted to ask you a couple
of questions about death. I know you worked with Nicholas Ray, who's the
great director whose films included "Rebel Without a Cause" and "Johnny
Guitar." And you worked, I think, as an assistant to him when he had cancer
and...

Mr. JARMUSCH: Yeah.

GROSS: ...was facing death. How did he handle it? Like, what did--he was,
I'm sure, an idol of yours. What was it...

Mr. JARMUSCH: Yeah.

GROSS: ...like to not only be working with, you know, one of the people who
you idolized but who was also dying at the same time?

Mr. JARMUSCH: Well, you know, it was pretty heavy, but the thing is that Nick
stayed so full of life until the very end. And there were times in--you know,
you'd be sitting with him on some afternoon, and he would just suddenly double
up and curl up in intense, excruciating pain and couldn't breathe, and he just
wanted to be left alone in those periods. And then he'd sort of come back,
and then he'd start talking animatedly about whatever it was you were talking
about before. And he was so--I don't know. He was so interested in
expression on all levels, in all forms. You know, early on he did a radio
show playing rural blues and prison songs and, you know, kind of Alan Lomax
recordings. And, you know, he was a friend of Bertolt Brecht. And, you know,
he was just interested in so many things.

At the same time I know he used to play tennis in Hollywood with Hollywood
moguls, and, you know, he had a very interesting life, but he was very open.
And so I don't know. It was hard. And I stayed in his house while he was in
the hospital. His wife Susan asked me to stay in the house and answer the
phone because she would sleep in the hospital. And I'd visit him also a few
times in the hospital right up until his death. So it was rough and yet, at
the same time, somehow really inspiring, you know, just to have contact with
somebody like that that you--I did idolize his work and I still do.

GROSS: Are there other people who you knew at the time that they were dying
who made an impression on you in terms of, like, how they faced death?

Mr. JARMUSCH: Well, my grandmother was very--she was 99 when she died. She
was a big inspiration to me growing up. She was a very feisty woman, a
retired schoolteacher that, you know, made her living by selling antiques out
of her basement and stuff like that. And she got me interested in Native
culture, in French literature, in, you know, certain impressionistic
paintings, you know, when I was a young teen-ager. And when she died--I
remember on her 99th birthday, my uncle, my mother's twin brother, said, `Wow,
next year you're going to be 100. They'll put you in the newspaper, and you
might even be on TV.' And my grandmother said, `Well, I'll be damned sure to
die before that happens.'

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. JARMUSCH: And she did, but she had to kind of starve herself. And her
mother had been 101 when she died, my great-grandmother. And she didn't want
to be that--she said, `I don't want to be that old.' And so she kind of went
out and she starved herself and then had a stroke. And I used to visit her
and hold her hand, and she'd look in my eyes. And I knew exactly--she just
said, `I just want to go now,' you know? And her body wouldn't even let her.
It took a while. And then she did die. But that was also a kind of
inspiring death in a way because she had lived such a full life. But she just
adamantly didn't want to be around much longer. So she made her own choice in
that way.

GROSS: Several of your films are just so urban--you're really associated as
a filmmaker who's captured, like, an urban experience. And you've moved to
the Catskill Mountains for at least part of the time. You don't live there
all the time, but part of the time. Why did you want to spend part of your
time in the country?

Mr. JARMUSCH: Well, I like contrasts and I love cities. I really love
cities. They're like lovers you've had or have. And there's so many
different qualities to different cities that I really love. But I also love,
like--you know, I love the natural landscape. And I really do think that the
cycles of nature--you can learn more from them than from most human
expressions. So I like the balance. I also love how quiet it is. I love
being able to read and listen to music and, you know, write and do things, let
my imagination go without all the noise, both literally and figuratively, of
the city.

It also deepens my appreciation of the city because when I come back in and
there are a lot of things I want to do that I might not have done if I'd been
here, I might just hide out if I stay here. But I also like wild animals and
plants and mushroom identification and, you know, bird identification. And so
there's a lot of things going on out there that give me a lot. You know,
sometimes I feel like the city--it gave me so much energy when I was younger
that now maybe it's starting to call in its chips, you know. It's starting to
take energy from me. So I get a good balance by being kind of isolated in the
woods for half the time.

GROSS: Jim Jarmusch, great to talk with you again. Thank you so much for
talking with us.

Mr. JARMUSCH: Well, thank you so much for having me back.

GROSS: Jim Jarmusch wrote and directed the new film "Broken Flowers." I'm
Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of "I Want You")

Chorus: (Singing) I want you...

Mr. MARVIN GAYE: (Singing) And I want you...

Chorus: (Singing) ...the right way...

Mr. GAYE: (Singing) ...the right way, babe.

Chorus: (Singing) I want you, but I want you to want me, too.

Mr. GAYE: (Singing) Want me, too.

Chorus: (Singing) Want you to want me, too...

Mr. GAYE: (Singing) I want you the right way, baby.

Chorus: (Singing) ...just like I want you.

Mr. GAYE: (Singing) Whoo-hoo! Oh, I give you all the love I need you to
return, sweet darling. Your happiness is all I...

(Announcements)

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: On Friday, the Independent Film Channel premieres a new animated
series satirizing the independent film world. It's called "Hopeless
Pictures." Coming up, we talk with writer/producer Bob Balaban, who also
co-stars in it, and comic Jonathan Katz, who plays the therapist everyone
relies on.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Bob Balaban discusses his comedy series "Hopeless
Pictures"
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

A new animated satire about an independent film production company called
"Hopeless Pictures" is about to premier on a perfect place for such a series,
the Independent Film Channel. It's part of IFC's new Friday lineup of
programs satirizing the film world. "Hopeless Pictures" is produced, directed
and written by my guest Bob Balaban, who also does the voice of one of the
characters. Balaban has acted in many movies, including the mockumentaries
"Waiting for Guffman," "Best in Show" and "A Mighty Wind." He produced and
co-starred in Robert Altman's film "Gosford Park."

His new animated series follows Mel Wax, the head of Hopeless Pictures, a
production company that made the recent film "There Will Come Soft Rain." He
desperately wants to make a hit that will make him a real player in Hollywood.
Mel Wax is voiced by Michael McKean. His therapist is played by Jonathan
Katz, who we'll hear from a little later. Here's Mel Wax and his therapist
talking on the phone in the opening scene from "Hopeless Pictures."

(Soundbite of "Hopeless Pictures")

Mr. MICHAEL McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) Dr. Stein.

Mr. JONATHAN KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) Speaking.

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) Buddy, it's Mel Wax. I--have you got a minute? I
gotta just touch base with you here. Everything's coming apart. I'm getting
a very bad vibe from this picture we just previewed. I had a screening last
night that if they had stood up in the audience and said, `Mel Wax, leave the
business,' it couldn't have been more specific. I've got a disaster in Zagreb
which gets worse every day. I have an insane, Swedish, pill-popping director.
My wife thinks I'm cheating on her which, of course, as we both know, I am. I
think I covered...

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) Mel, listen to me.

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) I'm saying it's angst. I mean, it's what you call
angst.

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) Slow down for a second because...

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) Yeah.

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) ...you know, this is the good news is that all of
your problems are real.

GROSS: You know, a lot of people have this very idealistic view of what
independent films are like, you know, Hollywood, it's cutthroat, it's
egotistical, everybody's sleeping with everybody else and it's all about
celebrity. But independent pictures, that's about art.

Mr. BOB BALABAN ("Hopeless Pictures"): Yeah.

GROSS: That's not about commerce. But of course, your series, "Hopeless
Pictures," is set in the world of independent movies, but everybody's still
totally egotistical, insecure at the same time. They want to make big money.
Everybody's sleeping with everybody. But it's just on a smaller level.

Mr. BALABAN: I was going to say, independent movies, big Hollywood movies, I
guess you sleep with the same amount of people, you lie to the same amount of
people.

GROSS: They're just less famous.

Mr. BALABAN: You just don't make as much money.

GROSS: Right.

Mr. BALABAN: That's all. You don't make as much.

GROSS: Why did you want to do this series? Now it's on the Independent Film
Channel. I'm not sure if they came to you and said, `Give us a funny series
about independent movies,' or whether you wanted to satirize independent films
and went to them.

Mr. BALABAN: A couple of years ago, the Independent Film Channel did come to
me and asked me to design their image campaign, which is a series of
commercials that promotes their network that they show on the network, and the
goal is, don't make it look like a commercial, which is a fun goal, you know.
I like that goal. So I designed for them five animated 60-second spots about
a movie studio, and this was a movie studio that only made--their motto--their
slogan was, `No movie is too small or too depressing for us.'

And we tracked one movie through these five commercials. The movie was called
"Dance With Pain." And truly, once you start satirizing, or attempting to
satirize this stuff, you start looking around, and that's a pretty viable
title as it turns out. And the idea was they had to make a movie that had no
entertainment value of any kind and was just absolutely depressing. In fact,
at one point in the second commercial, they tried to get Susan Sarandon to
star in the movie, and I forgot what--Susan wanted something--I mean, or her
character wanted something, not Susan, and they decided not to have Susan do
the movie and, instead, hired their cleaning lady to do the lead in the movie,
because she was really Polish, and the movie took place in Poland.

Anyway, I made five of these spots, and then the Independent Film Channel came
to me about eight months ago and said, `We had such good reaction to those
spots, would you turn it into a series?'

GROSS: You played the studio head's inept nephew who's the head of
production. Very insecure...

Mr. BALABAN: Yeah.

GROSS: ...with good reason. And why did you give yourself that role?

Mr. BALABAN: I thought I should be on the show, because I thought I'd be
jealous if I weren't on my own show, because...

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. BALABAN: ...you know, I'm an actor, too, and, you know, what if it's
really successful. You know, I would have lost an opportunity to get a job
without auditioning. I'm really the only--mostly the only person on the show
who uses a kind of different voice. And I just thought it would be fun. You
know, I've always wanted to be a voice on a show, and I thought it might be
fun to be a different character, although I myself--you know, it's not a huge
stretch for me to play an insecure, neurotic Jewish guy from a city somewhere.
But the character's a little bit different for me, and I just did it, 'cause I
thought it would be fun.

GROSS: Bob Balaban, Jonathan Katz played the role of a psychiatrist on his
own series, "Dr. Katz," which used to run on Comedy Central. Why did you want
to cast him as a psychiatrist on your series?

Mr. BALABAN: Well, I was actually on his show once as a patient, and I
probably am one of the few patients on the show that benefited from his
psychiatric treatment. I thought he was fantastic.

GROSS: What did he tell you?

Mr. BALABAN: I don't know. I think it was just the act of--I needed somebody
to listen to me, and it just made me feel better when it was over. I thought
he was a psychiatrist, to be honest with you. I mean, I know he's a comic and
a funny, wonderful guy, but he is so unerring in the things that he says and
in the way that he talks, it's very hard to believe he's not a psychiatrist.

So when I thought we needed some glue to glue all of us characters together in
this "Hopeless Pictures" thing, I just thought it would be great to have him
be the psychiatrist while talking to him. And because it's California and
because we're in the movie business, we are always driving around, and we are
always in our cars and other places, always on the telephone. So he's a
therapist who literally never sees any of us in person. We only talk to him
in two- and three-minute increments on the phone. That's--in fact, in one
episode, one of the patients has an emergency and ends up in his office, and
everybody's sort of surprised to see each other, because they probably have
never met before.

GROSS: You've been in several movies that rely on a lot or a little
improvisation, including "Best in Show," "A Mighty Wind," "Gosford Park,"
what's your approach to creating an improvisatory atmosphere for your new
series "Hopeless Pictures"?

Mr. BALABAN: Well, I think you put it--I mean, in your question is the answer
to me. It's much more about setting up an atmosphere where people feel
comfortable, happy, relaxed, focused, and then getting the right people in the
room together. And in this case, it's very much about trying to know
everybody well enough to know that there are certain situations that some
people flourish in and certain combinations of people that will do better than
other combinations. It's really as simple and as complicated as that.

And when I watch Christopher Guest directing these wonderful, special movies
that I'm so happy to be a part of, I'm very, very struck by how frequently the
best direction is to be quiet and let somebody go on for a while and then
swoop down and control things if you need to. `A little more of this.'
`Let's not go there.' `Let's start here.' `Let's end there.' But
Christopher, to me, has taught me just a great lesson that I'm always
attempting to learn better, which is to shut up a lot, set up a situation, get
the right people together and let them hang out there for a while, give it
time.

GROSS: You've been on the show several times, and in every interview that we
do together, there's a point in which I ask you to just describe your family
history in the industry. So this is that point in this particular interview,
so just sum up...

Mr. BALABAN: Oh, I don't mind it.

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. BALABAN: I'm happy. My dad was born in 1909 in Chicago, into a kind of a
poor Russian immigrant family that had a little grocery store. It was
probably more like a little delicatessen that sold lettuce on the side
basically. Nine people living in a back room, absolutely poverty-stricken
with no hope of anything. But my grandmother was this genius woman who came
over and refused to be daunted. So she went to the nickelodeon, saw a movie,
came back and said to the seven brothers, `We're going in the movie business.'
Can you imagine, you know, what that was like at that time, to be saying this?
I mean, it was insane. What could they do?

Well, it turned out all the brothers got infatuated, and within three years,
they had 10 nickelodeons. Within 10 or 12 years after that, they had 70
theaters throughout the Midwest, mostly in the Chicago area that were picture
palaces. You know, they were designed by an architectural firm of Wrap &
Wrap(ph). They looked like "Arabian Nights." They had gargoyles and
fountains and ushers that marched with uniforms and prizes that they gave
away. The Marx Brothers had some of their earliest beginnings at some of my
family's theaters, Balaban and Katz in Chicago. And they showed a lot of
great movies.

And eventually, Barney, the oldest brother, went and ran Paramount for 35
years. And Katz of Balaban and Katz went and was head of production at MGM
for a number of years. And my dad was instrumental in a lot of development in
the cable television world. So I've got a lot of roots back there.

GROSS: So what do you think your uncles and father would find most
unrecognizable about the movie industry today?

Mr. BALABAN: I think Barney would be very surprised, you know, to realize
that movie studios are run like businesses now. I mean, Barney was very
businesslike and made--and Paramount had wonderful profits, you know, when he
was in charge, and he was very cost-conscious. But he was also very concerned
with the quality of the movies. And as you know, every movie studio had a
kind of a profile. MGM was known, you know, big musicals, very romantic
things. Paramount did a lot of classic sort of heroes and famous literature.
And everybody, they kind of had a little corner on the market. And the reason
they had that is that the people who ran these studios actually owned the
studios and made movies that appealed to them starring people that appealed to
them.

So the largest thing that's different now, and it's the most obvious thing,
one could say, and yet we don't always think of it this way, there's nobody
whose heart is on the line with the making of the movie now. The marketing
department is in charge of what gets made. The advertising department has to
say, `Well, what's the ...(unintelligible)? We can't make this movie. We
can't advertise it.' And, you know, the movie world is different. It opens
on--you live and die on a weekend right now, so the function of movie stars is
radically different from the way they had to function in the '30s and the '40s
even.

But the simplest thing is that movies used to be made by studios that were run
by one megalomaniacal either genius or idiot, I suppose, but who did whatever
they wanted, because they thought it would be appealing. Now they're run by
committees, and it's a very different world.

GROSS: Well, Bob Balaban, I wish you good luck with the series.

Mr. BALABAN: Thanks, Terry. Always good to talk to you.

GROSS: Bob Balaban produces, directs, writes and co-stars in the new animated
series "Hopeless Pictures." It premieres Friday night on the Independent Film
Channel.

Coming up, we talk with actor and comic Jonathan Katz, who does the voice of
the therapist in the series. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

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Interview: Jonathan Katz discusses his roles in "Hopeless
Pictures" and "Dr. Katz, Professional Therapist" and his career
as a comic
TERRY GROSS, host:

In the new animated series "Hopeless Pictures," Jonathan Katz plays the
therapist that many of the characters depend on. Katz co-created and starred
in the Comedy Central animated series "Dr. Katz, Professional Therapist,"
which won an Emmy and a Peabody Award. He's an actor and comic who has
appeared in several films by David Mamet, who Katz first met in college.
Katz's evening of comedy, "75 Laughs," will soon be heard on many public radio
stations. Here's another scene from "Hopeless Pictures." The therapist,
played by Katz, is taking a call from Mel Wax, the head of the company
Hopeless Pictures. Michael McKean does the voice of Wax.

(Soundbite of "Hopeless Pictures"; cell phone noise)

Mr. JONATHAN KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) Hello?

Mr. MICHAEL McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) Dr. Stein, Mel Wax.

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) Hi, Mel.

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) Hi. Have you got 30 seconds?

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) I have more than 30 seconds for you.

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) Oh, thank you.

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) I have 40 seconds.

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) The day is getting progressively worse. It turns
out that I can't get in to see the doctor about this tooth. The pain is
feeling a lot like the pain I have when I think about my mom, and I thought
that would go away when she did. But...

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) Yeah.

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) ...it's only gotten worse. And I'm feeling...

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) And why can't he see you? I don't understand that.

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) Because--and this is the part that really hurts--is
because I'm not famous enough.

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) Oh, that is--you see, that has to...

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) Welcome to the real world. Welcome to the real
world. I mean, this is like--it's either Nicole Kidman or Mel Wax. What are
you going to take?

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) Right.

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) Whose mouth are you going to be in?

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) I would go with Nicole Kidman.

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) I know, I know. But it just hurts. It hurts.

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) But, hey...

Mr. McKEAN: (As Mel Wax) And I'm feeling so much pain right now.

Mr. KATZ: (As Dr. Stein) I mean, you have to learn to love yourself, not
because somebody's making your movie, but because--(pauses)--jeez, I wish I
could think of another reason.

(Soundbite of cell phone noise)

GROSS: You're such an improbable therapist, because I think you're probably
among the more neurotic people (laughs) I've ever met.

Mr. KATZ: Uh, thank you?

GROSS: What do you think?

Mr. KATZ: I mean, I think you're both right. No, wait, there's just one of
you. I'm sorry. No, I think that both of those things are true. I'm an
improbable therapist, but I think there's something about the tone of my voice
that people find comforting. And I grew up--even though I grew up in New York
City, I mean, I live in Newton, Massachusetts, which is the home of therapy.
If you go outside, somebody will say you have issues.

GROSS: (Laughs)

Mr. KATZ: No, just--I'm surrounded by real therapists.

GROSS: You know, I was talking to Bob Balaban, the creator of "Hopeless
Pictures"...

Mr. KATZ: Right.

GROSS: ...in which you play the therapist, and he said--when I asked him why
he cast you in this role, of course, one of the reasons was because you played
Dr. Katz in your own series, but he said that when he was a guest on your
show, "Dr. Katz, Professional Therapist," he found it really helpful to talk
to you in your role as therapist, that he felt you actually helped him.

Mr. KATZ: Oh, that's so sweet. You know, I try to engage--when I did "Dr.
Katz," I tried to engage my patients as if I were a therapist, then about 30
seconds into it, I'd come to my senses and say, `I can't really help these
people. Maybe I can make them laugh.' But you know, I've been in and out of
therapy most of my adult life and a couple weeks ago I went cold turkey
because I can't play a bad therapist for the second time in my life and pay a
good therapist. It just doesn't seem right, 'cause, you know, I'm both being
with her and doing therapy and doing--I'm researching a role.

GROSS: So I sometimes never know whether to take you at face value or not,
but did you really stop therapy because of the role?

Mr. KATZ: I did. I did. Yeah. Plus, which, she would say things like--if
I said to her, `I really need to stop doing this,' she would say, `Let's
explore that.' And that was another 175 bucks to continue the conversation,
which is not a lot in the scheme of things, but still it's--you know, it's
kind of like the Mafia, therapy. They're not willing to let you go that
easily.

GROSS: You have a comedy show that you've been doing...

Mr. KATZ: Right.

GROSS: ...called "75 Laughs: An Evening With Jonathan Katz." Let's start
with the title, why it's called "75 Laughs."

Mr. KATZ: Well, you know, for many years I worked in comedy clubs where I
discovered if you are a laugh-a-minute guy, you'll get fired. It's not
enough. They want more. So I picked the number 75 laughs 'cause the show is
about an hour and 15 minutes long. Is that 75 minutes?

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. KATZ: That is a laugh a minute. So I didn't want to promise more than a
laugh a minute. And a lot of it wasn't that funny; a lot of it was sort of
whimsical; some of it was kind of melancholy; some of it was kind of musical,
which is also a little melancholy, if you've ever heard me sing.

GROSS: (Laughs)

Mr. KATZ: And a lot of it, you know, had to do with "Dr. Katz," had to do
with the world of therapy. So, you know, I really confuse actual therapy with
pretend therapy a lot.

GROSS: The "75 Laughs" show that you do is actually going to be heard
sometime soon on many public radio stations.

Mr. KATZ: Right.

GROSS: But I want to play an excerpt of "75 Laughs" and...

Mr. KATZ: Oh, you do whatever you have to do, Terry.

GROSS: And--yeah. And this is a bit that you do about having MS, which you
have, which is something I want to talk with you about.

Mr. KATZ: Right. OK.

GROSS: But first I want to play this bit.

Mr. KATZ: OK.

(Soundbite of "75 Laughs")

Mr. KATZ: But when I was first diagnosed, my wife and I went to see a
neurologist, and he--and I said to him, `Dr. Dobson, what do people do when
they find out they have MS, a guy my age?' I was 49 at the time. And he
said, `Some guys have 10 affairs, and some guys climb Mt. Everest.' So my
wife and I talked it over.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. KATZ: And we decided on one affair and three romantic dinners, 'cause I'm
not an outdoorsman.

GROSS: That's my guest, Jonathan Katz, who is a comic, an actor and writer.

Jonathan, is this the, quote, "bright side" of MS, that it gives you good
material?

Mr. KATZ: Well, you know, I got married and there was--all of a sudden I went
from five minutes to 20 minutes. I had children; I had a solid half-hour.
And then I got MS, so I can do an hour now.

GROSS: (Laughs)

Mr. KATZ: So, you know, I know it's a disease, but it also happens to be a
hook for me as a comedian. I wish I had a hook that didn't also come with a
disease.

GROSS: Really?

Mr. KATZ: But I don't. I think I've told you this, that not only do I have
an illness that's become sort of very chic to have right now, but I'm very
competitive with other celebrities who have MS, like Teri Garr, who is a big
fan of mine. I said to her recently, `I'm going to make you wish you had
lupus.'

GROSS: (Laughs) Getting MS for an actor is obviously not a good career move.
I mean, it's going to--it affects so much of your life and certainly affects
your motion and, you know, walking and mobility and everything.

Mr. KATZ: Right.

GROSS: Did you hide it for a while, thinking, like, you'd have no career if
people knew?

Mr. KATZ: Yeah, I did. I did. And I discovered after--I was making a TV
show in LA, and it was a very physical job, oddly enough, because it was on
the Paramount lot, which is enormous, and I had to cover a lot of territory.
I work with many writers, actors. And I discovered after--it was just a
coincidence--September 11th, or what we call 9/11, that living with MS is
easier than pretending not to have it.

GROSS: What was so hard about pretending not to have it?

Mr. KATZ: Well, because I went around being as physical as other people and
pretending that I could walk as far as other people, that the heat doesn't
bother me when, in fact, MS makes you very susceptible to the heat. You know,
once a week I would have to take this drug which was keeping the disease at
bay, and I would be out of the loop the next day; I'd be loopier than usual.
So it was tricky, kind of like an exhausting game of hide-and-go-seek.

GROSS: How did you figure out how to go public about it? Like, who's the
first person you tell?

Mr. KATZ: Well, I'm still--I'm going to tell my wife tonight, I promise.

GROSS: (Laughs)

Mr. KATZ: No, I guess--my wife came to Hollywood one day and we met with my
manager at the time and my lawyer. And they both looked at me very sternly
and said, `Jonathan, in Hollywood, you're not allowed to be sick or old.' So
I've moved back to Newton, Massachusetts, where both things are encouraged.
So, you know, I sort of withdrew from Hollywood because it would seem like a
harsh kind of reality for a guy with a disability, and started thinking of
ways--and my best friend in show business is this guy, Tom Snyder, with whom I
make animated things and radio things, and we started working more intensely
on stuff. And he is somebody who, when we went to LA to pitch a TV show, an
animated show, to Fox, I showed up on a little red scooter, a handicapped
scooter, and he rented one just to be supportive, even though he doesn't need
one. And we showed up at the reception desk and we said, `We're here for
"Handi-Cops."'

GROSS: (Laughs)

Mr. KATZ: I think the...

GROSS: You know, it's almost creepy laughing at your jokes. I mean,
you're...

Mr. KATZ: Well...

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. KATZ: ...'cause there's something about disability that makes people
uncomfortable, and I'd like to sort of demystify it for people.

GROSS: One of the things you like to do is improv.

Mr. KATZ: Right.

GROSS: And you do a lot of audio sketches. I mean, I imagine there's a lot
of improv on "Dr. Katz"; I know that there is in the new series that you're
doing.

Mr. KATZ: Right.

GROSS: But, you know, you do a lot of improv within your own shows now. You
get somebody from the audience or a comic friend of yours and do a largely
improvised sketch together. Why do you like improv so much?

Mr. KATZ: Because I discovered, I guess, somewhere in the mid-'90s, when I
met this guy Jon Benjamin who played my son on "Dr. Katz," that I want to
enjoy comedy, too. I don't just want to do it for the audience. I mean, and
I would get in the booth with this guy and they would have to carry me out
because I was laughing so hard, 'cause he made me laugh. We kept that
laughter in the show, so occasionally you can hear me on the verge of
fainting. And then I guess it's the surprise because I couldn't see the jokes
coming a mile away and I don't mind. And they can be great jokes.

A friend who passed away not so long ago--actually, so long ago--a guy named
Ronnie Shakes--he used to tell this joke about therapy. He said, `I saw my
therapist last week, and I've been seeing the same guy for 12 years, but last
week he said something that brought tears to my eyes: "No habla ingles."'

I have to assume I've lost you, Terry.

GROSS: It takes...

Mr. KATZ: Assume that--I'm giving you...

GROSS: It takes a second for that to register on me.

Mr. KATZ: Yeah, it's...

GROSS: OK.

Mr. KATZ: ...such a good joke, but...

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. KATZ: ...you know, it's just a joke, and...

GROSS: Did I just flunk that one?

Mr. KATZ: Well, you didn't flunk, but you might have to take it again.

GROSS: The thing I love about your jokes is that, you know, it--some of them
are just like so oblique, they take--it takes me, like...

Mr. KATZ: Yeah, it sneaks up on you from behind, almost.

GROSS: ...moments.

Mr. KATZ: Yeah.

GROSS: Yeah. I feel like such a failure 'cause I have to, like, sit here and
think through your jokes and I'm not, you know...

Mr. KATZ: No, that's OK. Listen, that's--this is the...

GROSS: Is that a good thing? Does that speak well of your jokes, that I
actually have to think about them before I laugh?

Mr. KATZ: I think...

GROSS: Like, 30 seconds later I'm laughing?

Mr. KATZ: I think if you had paid to get in, it wouldn't be a good thing.
But the fact that we're on the air together, it's not a bad thing. It's a
good thing. I'm flattered, because if my jokes were immediately accessible,
you wouldn't need me.

GROSS: What...

Mr. KATZ: You'd have someone--you'd be talking to someone else.

GROSS: That--of course. How perfectly logical. Well, Jonathan Katz, great
to talk with you.

Mr. KATZ: Oh, my pleasure.

GROSS: Jonathan Katz is the voice of the therapist in the new animated series
"Hopeless Pictures," which premieres Friday night on the Independent Film
Channel. Our thanks to Jay Allison and the people at the public radio Web
site Transom.org, where you can hear more work by Jonathan Katz. His evening
of comedy, "75 Laughs," will soon be heard on many public radio stations. He
also plans to perform the show in New York.

I'm Terry Gross.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.