What's new this season on network TV? Not much

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is Alex Van Halen of the iconic rock band Van Halen.

(SOUNDBITE OF VAN HALEN SONG, "JUMP")

MOSLEY: "Jump" was Van Halen's biggest hit, and it became an anthem when it came out in 1983 even though a record executive once said it sounded like the kind of music you'd hear between baseball innings. Alex Van Halen shares this story in his new memoir "Brothers," which he wrote after the loss of his younger brother, Eddie, who died of cancer in 2020.

Known for their extravagant, high-energy performances, Van Halen is credited with being one of the most influential rock bands of all time. The book covers the first three decades of Eddie and Alex's music career, which started from their arrival as kids to the United States from the Netherlands, the influence of their father, who was a Dutch jazz musician, and the formation of the rock band in 1974 after meeting vocalist David Lee Roth and bassist Michael Anthony. But most importantly, "Brothers" is a love letter to the music they created and Eddie, who has been called for decades one of the greatest guitarists of all time. Van Halen disbanded after Eddie died in 2020. But throughout their run, Van Halen produced 12 studio albums, two live records and 56 singles. They were included in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame in 2007.

Alex Van Halen, welcome to FRESH AIR.

ALEX VAN HALEN: Thank you for having me.

MOSLEY: Alex, this was a beautiful read. And I feel like there is no better way to ground this conversation than to start at the beginning of this book because the way you write is so poetic. And the way that both you and Ed talk about your relationship, which - you use his words in this book - really gives us a grounding. And I want to read just this first piece that you have on the very first page. It says, (reading) without my brother, I would not be. We fight, argue. We even argue about agreeing on things. But there is a bond and unconditional love that very few people ever experience in their lifetime. We're not a rock band. We're a rock 'n' roll band. Alex is the rock. I'm the roll.

And that was your brother. He wrote that about the two of you. Did he write it, or did he say that at one time?

A VAN HALEN: I'm not quite sure, but when I hear - even though I've heard it a hundred times, when I hear it again, it brings a lump to my throat. We literally were yin and yang, the two halves of a whole, however it's been characterized. And it made the - when that says, even we fight, when we argue - yeah, sure (laughter). My way; no, your way; no, both ways - it bled into everything we did, whether it was writing songs. Even though Ed did the majority of the music, you know, we all had a hand into bending and twisting it the way that we felt appropriate for what we were doing, meaning that, you know, you can't have a nine-minute song on your first record. Well, you can.

MOSLEY: Right.

A VAN HALEN: But it doesn't serve you well. So the constant juggling and adapting and - I wouldn't call compromising, but blending is really the word that I'm looking for. It's kind of like making a soup. All those things kind of come together. And then you walk away at the end of the day with something that you say, OK, this is pretty good; let's see what happens tomorrow, because we left a lot unfinished.

MOSLEY: You left a lot unfinished. You spent your whole lives together. You're basically like twins, 20 months apart.

A VAN HALEN: Yeah.

MOSLEY: How much of the music did you listen to while writing this book?

A VAN HALEN: I'll be honest with you, man. I went through a lot of emotional issues. But I basically had PTSD when he passed. I didn't know what - why I was yelling and screaming at people, and I was borderline violent. I didn't hit anybody. I don't hurt anybody. I'm too old for that. But the feelings of frustration and an inexcusable way of behaving to my closest friends and my family was all wrong, you know? So I sought help and found out what it was.

MOSLEY: Yeah. It was the pain of the loss of a brother.

A VAN HALEN: Yeah, it's indescribable. You know, I had the pleasure and the good fortune of being close friends with the Porcaro family. And Steve lost a couple of members. He lost two brothers. So after...

MOSLEY: Can you - I'm sorry. Can you reference who the Porcaro family is just so we'll have - for those who don't know?

A VAN HALEN: Well, they were probably the most famous studio musicians and later made a band called Toto. I just thought - like, I talked to Steve. You shouldn't have called it Toto.

(LAUGHTER)

MOSLEY: What should he have called it?

A VAN HALEN: But just...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

A VAN HALEN: I don't know. Well, but the thing is it's not really named after a little dog. The original name was for in toto, which means in total.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

A VAN HALEN: They were a band that did things in total. That was the Italian version of it. But anyway, so I went to visit him because I really didn't know where to - who to talk to, who I could relate to. It's difficult to find people your own age and your own musical history and background that you can communicate with. So I was talking with Steve. I'm laughing because the punchline was at the very end, I leave. And I'm maybe 15 minutes out from his house, and he calls me. And he says, hey, Al. I just realized I never dealt with any of it, which I found profound because of - indirectly because of Ed and my problem, he finally would admit that he - you know, it's not done yet.

And that's really what it is. You're never going to be rid of it. It's going to be memories. There's going to be people. There's going be instances that - whether it's smells or food or places where you've been together before. You know, obviously, every time I hear some of our music that puts me right back there.

MOSLEY: Yeah. And that helped you in the writing of this book. But that was such a painful place to be...

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...'Cause that is the basis, that's the core of you and your brother's relationship.

A VAN HALEN: Yeah.

MOSLEY: It was fun to read about your origin story because it allows us to see how the two of you saw yourselves because at your core, you guys always seemed to see yourselves really as immigrant children from the Netherlands who fulfilled this American dream. Is it really true that you didn't even know English when you arrived in the States?

A VAN HALEN: That's true. I'm trying to - you know, coming to America was such an overload, a sensual overload of colors and smells. And the weather was different, and the people were different, and the cars were huge compared to what we had in Holland. It was a lot to take in. But I kind of rode the wave, so to speak. You know, Ed was very, very sensitive in that way, if not always. So it was a good mix between the two of us. I kind of plowed ahead, and Ed would analyze or be overwhelmed by things. But, you know, it was a different time. It was 1962 - I think it was - at the moment.

MOSLEY: Yeah. You were 8, and he was 6.

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: With your mom being Indonesian and your father being Dutch - right? - they were an interracial couple, and you were mixed-race children.

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: Why did your parents choose to come to the United States? What were they fleeing from?

A VAN HALEN: There was a lot of political turmoil in Indonesia. And to put it simply, they didn't - they wanted to be free of the colonial power structure. And they saw my dad as part of that because he was Caucasian. Our parents were already married, so the best thing that they could do, they thought, rather than live in the middle of some place full of conflict where you really - the Caucasian people really were a minority at that time in Indonesia, even though they were the ruling class.

They moved to Holland. It was my dad's home country, and there, the shoe is on the other foot, you know? Now my mom is the minority, and she's easily identifiable, you know (laughter)? I'm laughing because, you know, it's absurd what people do on this planet, but that's another story. So they moved to Holland, and she really, really got the brunt of racism, you know, all the time. Even as children, we saw it happen.

But, you know, you can look back on it. Depending on how you navigate it, it could be a positive. It could be a negative. It never really affected me as much as it did Ed. It can either make you tougher, or it can make you hate people or angry. I never had any of that. You know, as a musician, you welcome everybody. Why would you cut your audience (laughter)? You know, everybody come in. Let's go play (laughter).

MOSLEY: What was the choice for them moving to the United States? Was it because of what they were experiencing in Holland around...

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...Their relationship?

A VAN HALEN: At that time, my mother had a sister who lived in a city called Pasadena. And she kept sending letters and all these different communications of how wonderful it was, and the weather is great. It's just like Indonesia. Oranges are a penny apiece, which is, you know, in Holland, you don't really get oranges. You get them once in a while, and they ship them from Spain. And then they come elaborately wrapped. It's a big ordeal. But that aside - so oranges for a penny apiece was very attractive for my mom and us, too, as well.

MOSLEY: How did your parents meet?

A VAN HALEN: The way my mom explained it to me was he showed up on his motorcycle, and he didn't have any underwear on (laughter).

MOSLEY: Whoa.

A VAN HALEN: That's a love story (laughter). You know, those kind of stories - little humor, I think, because, you know, living in those times was very - things were not secure. The Second World War had just ended, and now everything's headed for another conflict and another disagreement. And, you know, God only knows what's going to happen. But my mom came from a very wealthy family in Indonesia. They owned a bit of a railroad piece or something. They were higher up the food chain. But to my mom, working in an office and wearing a suit and a tie, nothing was higher than that in her ambition. And for our whole life, that's all she ever asked was, Alex, Edward, please wear a suit (laughter).

MOSLEY: She had you guys playing classical music.

A VAN HALEN: Classical music was in the house 24/7, that and military marches because my dad, to be able to work in Holland, he had to join the air force. So they would do the dignitary marches and all that. But, yeah, basically it was - as a musician, you know, you have to look for opportunity. And every musician knows that. And you make do with what you got. But being in the military was, I think, very - indirectly was very much involved with how we were brought up. Being strict with the kids, there was no question about it, you know? You do it, or else you're going to get your ass beat. And they would never beat us a lot, but just enough to...

MOSLEY: Just enough to get you in line.

A VAN HALEN: Bingo. You know, it was very normal. Corporal punishment was very typical at that time.

MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alex Van Halen. We're talking about his new memoir about his life and his brother Eddie and the formation of Van Halen. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF VAN HALEN'S "316")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and today we're talking to Alex Van Halen, founding member of the rock band Van Halen. His new memoir gives an intimate view of his relationship with his younger brother Eddie, who died in 2020, and the first three decades of the band's run. The book is called "Brothers."

Alex, music was in your blood because your dad was a jazz musician. So you were watching him while you guys were also performing yourselves. What was your earliest recollection of doing gigs?

A VAN HALEN: The first thing we wanted to do was put a band together. And I think the first band we did put together was a band called the Broken Combs, which was - I played sax and Ed played piano. We had two other guys in there. And we managed to play for the school functions, and it was a good lesson for us as well.

MOSLEY: You always knew you'd be in a band, and you always knew that it would actually be with your brother. How did you know that rock was your calling?

A VAN HALEN: You feel it. You know, music is not an intellectual endeavor. It's not what people think it is. You feel it. You either dig it or you don't, right? It's that simple. To jump around a little bit, I think it was Count Basie who said there's only two kinds of music, good music and the other kind.

(LAUGHTER)

A VAN HALEN: But that kind of - that's how simple it is, you know? If you like it, do it, as long as it's not illegal.

MOSLEY: You knew what kind of music that you wanted to play as soon as you experienced rock. You experienced, you guys, like so many teenagers during that time period, it was the British invasion. It was the Beatles.

A VAN HALEN: Yes, yeah.

MOSLEY: Also a lesser-known group called the Dave Clark Five.

A VAN HALEN: Bingo. Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that because those guys - they were really what we thought was the epitome of that kind of music at the time.

MOSLEY: What was it about them that blew your mind?

A VAN HALEN: They had a grungy sound that the saxophone provided, and because I think maybe somewhere in our psyche, because our dad played saxophone, it was deeper in our DNA. But, you know, it's a good thing we didn't bet on anything and that we weren't financial advisers because we would've bet on the wrong horse.

(LAUGHTER)

A VAN HALEN: But, yeah, so when the Beatles came, I mean, they were brilliant. No aspect of what they did was not brilliant. "A Hard Day's Night" was the first MTV long video, if you will. You know, these guys were just brilliant. And not to mention their music. The talent and the music that came out was unmatched. I mean, there were a lot of bands around, a lot of - from Herman's Hermits to the Seeds, you name it. I can't even name them all. But the Beatles clearly were a notch above all that. And that appealed to us.

MOSLEY: No, like, they gave you - I mean, they gave you, really, the rock 'n' roll Holy Ghost. I mean, because you...

A VAN HALEN: Yeah.

MOSLEY: You experienced them, and you immediately shifted your focus from the music that you were playing to then finding your own sound. I'm really interested, though, in how you and Eddie came to your instruments because, at first, the guitar was your instrument, right?

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: How did it become Eddie's?

A VAN HALEN: I was taught very strict and very by the book. You know, you learn to read, you learn the chords - ba, da, da - you listen to the classical music and all that. But I had no connection with the instrument. I just wasn't - I hate to use the old expression. I just wasn't feeling it, right? And there's this story about Ed doing papers, then I became better than him. That's not quite how it happened. But the fact was when Ed played, he made that instrument sing. It was unbelievable. Uncle Ed, you're playing guitar. I want drums. Besides, Dave Clark Five was my idol, and he was the drummer. But, again, on a serious note, when Ed played the guitar, he made it sing.

MOSLEY: I want us to play a little bit of Eddie on his guitar, 1986, peak Van Halen. This is live in New Haven. The crowd is electric. And we see your brother in all of his glory, at the top of his powers as a guitarist. He gets up there, and I think it's like a 12-minute guitar solo called "Eruption." Let's play a little bit of it.

(SOUNDBITE OF VAN HALEN'S "ERUPTION")

MOSLEY: That was the late Eddie Van Halen playing a solo of "Eruption."

A VAN HALEN: The one and only.

MOSLEY: That entire performance, Alex, is mesmerizing. I mean, Eddie looks like he's having the time of his life.

A VAN HALEN: That's because he is (laughter). He played guitar from the moment he woke up to the moment he went to sleep. And it was just his way of either communicating or finding peace with himself on the Earth. I don't know. And I'm certainly not going to stop him while he's getting better and better every day. So...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

A VAN HALEN: You know? That requires a lot of waiting and a lot of beer (laughter).

MOSLEY: Waiting and beer because you all were literally in a house together.

A VAN HALEN: Yes, yeah.

MOSLEY: And you're watching him perfect what we would see onstage.

A VAN HALEN: Yes, yeah. And we only had one record player, so you know.

MOSLEY: How would you describe his relationship to his guitar and what it allowed him to express?

A VAN HALEN: There was a time - well, again, because of the early - you become somewhat separated from the crowd by being a musician. You take it a step further. And then when the rock 'n' roll vibe permeated the country and you have a guitar right there, here come the girls. It's just that Ed had a sensitivity that was very difficult to describe, you know? And I don't think all of us were aware of it at the time because we're all trying to be tough guys, you know? You're out in the street, you better get tough, on the kid level. But I think I was pretty much in tune with what he was trying to do. The problem with Ed was he could play anything, so the most difficult thing for him was to find his own voice. And he spent a lot of time doing it. Then when he finally found it, that was it - big smile.

MOSLEY: Our guest today is Alex Van Halen. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "RUNNIN' WITH THE DEVIL")

VAN HALEN: (Singing) Yeah. I live my life like there's no tomorrow. All I've got I had to steal. Least I don't need to beg or borrow. Yes, I'm living at a pace that kills. Ooh, yeah - running with the devil.

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is Alex Van Halen from the rock band Van Halen. He's written a new memoir that covers the first three decades of the Van Halen brothers' journey in music, their childhood in the Netherlands and later in working-class Pasadena, California, meeting and working with front man David Lee Roth and the creation of the Van Halen sound. The book is also a love letter from Alex to his younger brother, Eddie, who died in 2020.

Alex, you wrote about David Lee Roth, the lead singer. You said this - the bottom line is that Dave desperately wanted to be an artist, but something was always missing. He could never really feel the music. He didn't get the part where you need to resonate with something deeper, something like the eternal force of the universe. That was, like, a very powerful thing to say about your lead man because his showmanship also seemed to provide something that you and your brother needed, and that was this front man because...

A VAN HALEN: Absolutely.

MOSLEY: ...People weren't going to shows just to see instrumentalists play during that time period.

A VAN HALEN: The very fact that you're calling it a show tells me which part of the human organism is actually getting the information. Your eyes take in 90% of the information that you process in your brain, which is ironic because we work in a sound medium. But (laughter) I was afraid to put it that way because people think I'm too analytical, but this is how I was taught. My dad used to tell me people don't go to hear a band. You know, when you talk to your buddies who went to - what band can I name? - went to Elton John, they don't say did you hear Elton John. Did you see the show?

MOSLEY: Yeah.

A VAN HALEN: And that was something that you need to incorporate. And how Ed and I approached it was that you don't want the needle to go too far from one to the other. Try to keep a balance between the sound and the show and everything else that's involved in putting it together. At the end of the day, you can do whatever you want. But we would like it to be successful in terms of having everything match the music, because Ed and I grew up on music. That was our world.

MOSLEY: Well, that is the thing is that this was - I just want to put people in this time period. So first off, you and your brother met David Lee Roth very young. I mean, you all basically started the group together.

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: It was David who came up with the name Van Halen.

A VAN HALEN: Yes, it was. Yeah. You know, I'm probably overthinking it, but I thought he was trying to curry favor with us. And I figured - so the first thing was I fought it. No, you can't name the band Van Halen. But eventually, it took. And of course, Gene Simmons said (imitating Gene Simmons) you can't use that name. It sounds like a shirt company, like Van Heusen (laughter).

MOSLEY: Well, Gene Simmons from Kiss - he's famously credited with discovering you guys. I mean, to put this time period in perspective, this was right as MTV was starting.

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: This was right as the visual part of it was coming into play for us...

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...Where that expectation was there. So I can imagine that was part of the conflict, too, right?

A VAN HALEN: You know, if you watch the bands and see how they progress, even Led Zeppelin was using explosions, OK? So when the guys are the highest form of the food chain, when they do it, it's OK. It's now become part of the language of rock 'n' roll. And why fight it? OK, bring on the flash pots (laughter).

MOSLEY: Yeah, yeah.

A VAN HALEN: But yeah. Gene - he was a good guy, man. We had a good time with him. We owe him a debt of gratitude.

MOSLEY: What do you remember most about meeting and working with him?

A VAN HALEN: That we had a drastically different way of looking at music, meaning that it was not a, I think - and then don't get mad at me, Gene. But I think for Gene, it was more of a way to get to where he wanted to be. Music was not the end result. And, you know, you have varying opinions about that. I mean, there are lots of musicians who wish they would've put on makeup and played and had more people come. But the thing is, he was very giving. He was very liberal with all his - I mean, we had a great time together. And his sense of humor was unbelievably bent (laughter). Gene would love you (laughter).

MOSLEY: Well, I get the sense that before David Lee Roth joined you guys that you and Eddie would have been fine doing sets in T-shirts and jeans because you were about the music, and he was about the show.

A VAN HALEN: Right.

MOSLEY: And what were some of the things that David would push you guys to do to be showmen?

A VAN HALEN: It wasn't so much pushing us. It was more we needed something, we needed someone to get us off our ass because we knew we had to do it. But we're waiting for the last minute possible to have to do it because to dress up for a gig - I mean, that's - now you're back to playing with suits on or whatever. That was how I saw it. Rock 'n' roll is supposed to be about freedom, about you just show up and play, right? We all knew we had to change the way we looked, so we did.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

A VAN HALEN: But when you're in the thick of it, when you're on Sunset Boulevard and you're walking down Hollywood Boulevard, you're walking down anywhere in Hollywood at that time, there is a whole rainbow of colors and dress styles. I mean, there was a band called Zolar X, and they dressed as space guys. I mean, it was mind-bending. I mean, their image was so overpowering, why would you even want to listen to the music, you know? Who cares? That was my read on it. Now, because we were all very, very opinionated, which also was actually - I'm being serious for a second. Because we were all very opinionated, we fought it out until somebody came up with the right solution. And that's basically the process.

MOSLEY: How did you get the idea to set your drums on fire as part of your act?

A VAN HALEN: There were a number of people at that time who tried different versions of it. I've always been fascinated by fire because, for me, fire represents the temporariness. Is that a word? Only the moment counts. I mean, the flame is there and, poof, it's gone. So is life, right? So to me, that represented that. And there was an element of danger because we did it on such an amateur level. Any given night when we did it, if my drum tech, Gregg - an old buddy of mine. If he put too much stuff on it, it would leak. And there were several times when...

MOSLEY: What do you mean by stuff - like, gas?

A VAN HALEN: Oh, yeah, lighter fluid - yeah, lighter fluid.

MOSLEY: Lighter fluid?

A VAN HALEN: Yeah. My favorite memory of all of that was we kind of gotten it down to a science. And as we're doing it during the performance, the lighter fluid starts to come down my arm. And then I look over and I notice my arm is on fire.

MOSLEY: (Laughter) Oh, my God.

A VAN HALEN: So I'm thinking, that can't be good, right? So I look at Greg, who's - you know, in theory, he's there with the fire extinguisher so he can - so I look at him, and he's looking at me. And he gives me the thumbs up - looks great, man.

MOSLEY: (Laughter).

A VAN HALEN: I'll never forget that as long as I live. Greg, I love you, but, man, put that damn fire out (laughter).

MOSLEY: Wait. Did he? Do you have burns? What's going on?

A VAN HALEN: What?

MOSLEY: Yes.

A VAN HALEN: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Did you have - yeah.

A VAN HALEN: Yeah, we had - but it was a very low ditch. You know, we just used lighter fluid, and you put a match to it. And poof. There it goes. It's very uncontrollable. You're taking a risk every night. But, you know, we were young. So it's OK. All right.

MOSLEY: I just - did you end up having to get new drum sets every time? I mean, how did that work?

A VAN HALEN: No, actually, it wasn't until the end of the tour. I got slapped with, like - I don't know how much. All the microphones and the cords were fried. And nobody told me that when we were doing it. The drum set itself was made out of stainless steel. Ludwig was very accommodating. They made a stainless steel drum set for me. It wasn't the only one, but they gave it to me. And - but it really goes to show you how, at that age, you know, you don't really - the stuff doesn't really register in your brain. It turns out that the average male brain does not completely mature until the age of 27 (laughter). I'm still waiting.

MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alex Van Halen. We're talking about his new memoir about his life and his brother, Eddie, and the formation of Van Halen. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF VAN HALEN'S "ERUPTION")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today we're talking to Alex Van Halen, founding member of the rock band Van Halen. His new memoir gives us an intimate view of his relationship with his younger brother, Eddie, who died in 2020, and the first three decades of the band's run. The book is called "Brothers."

"Hot For Teacher" was a song from your album "1984." It's one of Rolling Stone magazine's - it was on their list saying that this was the album that brought Van Halen's talent into focus. Let's play a little of "Hot For Teacher."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HOT FOR TEACHER")

VAN HALEN: Oh, wow. I said wait a second, man. What do you think the teacher's going to look like this year? Oh. (Singing) Oh, yeah. Teacher, stop that screaming. Teacher, don't you see? Don't want to be no uptown fool. Maybe I should go to hell.

MOSLEY: That was Van Halen's "Hot For Teacher" from the album "1984." Also, humor is a big part of your act. I wanted to say that. I mean...

A VAN HALEN: Absolutely.

MOSLEY: I know we've talking about it not being an act. It's who you are. But yes.

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: But this album overall was pioneering because there's a lot of synth, which was a new sound back then.

A VAN HALEN: Yes. And we were always looking for the next - what's around the corner. And we heard a lot of synthesizer music. It was all this progressive rock stuff, you know, whether it's Mahavishnu or Billy Cobham. And there were a number of people who used that sound quality, if you will, 'cause I hate to use the word synthesizer because it conjures up a certain image of certain things. When you juxtapose that over a very simple pattern of something else, it does become something else. I know I'm talking in riddles, but that's what music is. It's a big riddle - trying to figure it out.

MOSLEY: Well, this song - which came first, the melody or the drum beat?

A VAN HALEN: Ed and I played so much all the time. It's hard to remember who - I think it was probably Ed who came up with the guitar lick.

MOSLEY: One of the things that you like to make the point of is that you all aren't heavy metal, even though you were put in that category.

A VAN HALEN: Yes because heavy metal - I love heavy metal. But because we had a lot of different influences...

MOSLEY: Right.

A VAN HALEN: So we had to look for - because people like labels. And it was very difficult to find a label that would define us - not that we need a definition. But, you know, the irony of all of it was when rock 'n' roll, which was originally rebellion, became structured and organized, what the hell is that (laughter)?

MOSLEY: Right, right.

A VAN HALEN: (Inaud***).

MOSLEY: Did you ever see - yeah.

A VAN HALEN: Go ahead. You know what I'm talking about.

MOSLEY: Right. I mean, did - you watched "Spinal Tap," right?

A VAN HALEN: Oh, yeah, yeah. That wasn't...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

A VAN HALEN: ...Funny at all. That was the real deal.

MOSLEY: Why isn't it funny?

A VAN HALEN: Well, when - Ed and I saw it, and we said, man, that's how - that's what we experience. That is really how things happen. It's mind-bending. You know, the public doesn't really have any idea what goes on behind the scenes. And I'm certainly not going to burst the bubble. But that movie - there were a lot of elements that were more true than they were parody. And, of course, then they believed their own stuff, and they went out and toured for the...

MOSLEY: Right. Right. Right. That was the ironic part.

A VAN HALEN: Yeah.

MOSLEY: You and Eddie famously for a long time, never recorded any music without each other until a request from Quincy Jones...

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...For a little-known song called "Beat It." Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BEAT IT")

MICHAEL JACKSON: (Singing) Beat it. Beat it. Beat it. Beat it. No one wants to be defeated. Showing how funky and strong is your fight, it doesn't matter who's wrong or right. Just beat it. Beat it.

MOSLEY: That was a solo Eddie did on the iconic song "Beat It" by Michael Jackson. And, Alex, I think it was on the charts the same time as "1984," if I'm not...

A VAN HALEN: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

A VAN HALEN: Yeah, it was.

MOSLEY: Why do you think - yeah, why do you think Eddie went and did that without consulting you guys?

A VAN HALEN: If I remember, he did consult, and we said no (laughter). That's...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

A VAN HALEN: What are you going to do? I'm not going to make something - we really did not overthink anything. But I did want to kick his ass, you know? I wanted - why...

MOSLEY: Why?

A VAN HALEN: Because our model was basically Led Zeppelin. The way that they structured their business, the way they structured how they played, who they played with - Led Zeppelin was Led - you couldn't get Jimmy Page anywhere else. You can only get him in Led Zeppelin. Come to the show. That's it. You don't get him with Michael Jackson. You don't get him with so-and-so. But Ed violated that, and it started a whole cascade of just bad, bad vibes. And I...

MOSLEY: It was the beginning of the end...

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...For you guys...

A VAN HALEN: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...As a unit.

A VAN HALEN: But in all fairness, it really was not the single thing because there were - things were already starting to unravel. When we named the album "1984," it had nothing to do with the year. It had to do with George Orwell and the dystopia of what was going on. This band was so fractured. You know, we barely ever played together anymore. And unfortunately, MTV became the predominant way of conveying all this, and Dave, being the visual guy, naturally opted for more visual stuff. I don't blame him for any of it, but, you know, it's just too bad 'cause we were on the cusp of something really, really big.

MOSLEY: Ed going and doing this song with Michael Jackson - if you guys had always said you wanted to be Led Zeppelin, what do you think it was that made him say, I want to do this anyway?

A VAN HALEN: I don't know. There's - some aspects of Ed's behavior are even to me a mystery.

MOSLEY: I just have to say to you, Alex, it also opened up another world to you guys.

A VAN HALEN: Not really.

MOSLEY: I mean, I'm a little Black girl in Detroit hearing that little solo from Van Halen.

A VAN HALEN: Yeah.

MOSLEY: And it introduced me to you.

A VAN HALEN: That was the argument that a couple of other people make, but I tell you, I don't buy it. My suggestion would have been put Michael on our record. OK? Then you got something. And people say, are you out of your mind? Well, you can have guest people on your records. But am I angry? Of course not. You know, that's just posturing. That's what you do to your brother and your bandmates, you know? Nobody fights better than friends.

MOSLEY: Alex Van Halen, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much.

A VAN HALEN: It was my pleasure.

MOSLEY: Alex Van Halen is a founding member of the rock band Van Halen. His new memoir is called "Brothers." After a short break, TV critic David Bianculli reviews the fall TV broadcast season. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF WILLIE MITCHELL'S "20-75")

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. You know, it used to be an annual TV tradition - the fall season, when the broadcast networks would unveil their new and returning series to great fanfare and large audiences. Well, our TV critic David Bianculli says all that has changed with the advent of cable and now streaming networks - and with good reason.

DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: You may not have even noticed, but the broadcast fall season finally is underway, a little later than it used to roll out and with a lot less impact. The basic reason for this is that the corporations owning the broadcast TV networks also own streaming services. CBS has Paramount+. ABC has Disney+. NBC has Peacock. And they're putting their best programming eggs into those baskets. Just like in the late 1940s, the owners of NBC and CBS Radio put their money and talent and energy into this new thing called television.

So what's left to watch on broadcast TV this year? Not much. In prime time, I still watch "60 Minutes" on CBS, and I like "Abbott Elementary" on ABC. But this season, the networks are serving up a lot of sequels and retreads. CBS has Kathy Bates in a new show that uses the title of the old "Matlock" series, but not much else. CBS also has yet another spinoff from its "NCIS" franchise, while ABC has a sexier "Love Boat" type series called "Doctor Odyssey." And CBS also has a spinoff from the sitcom "Young Sheldon," which itself was a spinoff of "The Big Bang Theory."

It's an odd type of TV evolution. "Big Bang" was filmed multicamera in front of a studio audience. "Young Sheldon" wasn't. And the newest spinoff, "Georgie And Mandy's First Marriage," is. And it even opened with Georgie and his family watching an old multicamera sitcom on TV, an old episode of "Frasier," with Georgie, played by Montana Jordan, noting the laugh track from the "Frasier" studio audience.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "GEORGIE AND MANDY'S FIRST MARRIAGE")

KELSEY GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) In order to prevent spillage, one does not simply twist out the cork.

(LAUGHTER)

MONTANA JORDAN: (As Georgie Cooper) "Frasier's" a laughing show. I like laughing shows.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) What are you talking about?

JORDAN: (As Georgie Cooper) Well, some shows you can hear people laughing, and some you can't. "Wonder Years" - no one's laughing. Is it funny? We'll never know.

BIANCULLI: So many of these new series are like cafeteria casseroles. They're aggressively and intentionally bland and designed to be instantly accepted rather than being spicy, exotic or unsettling. Late-night broadcast TV, on the other hand, is going just as intentionally in the opposite direction.

Political humor has been a late night staple for decades, but there's more of an edge now and more time given for context. On "Saturday Night Live," during Weekend Update, Colin Jost poked fun at Donald Trump's behavior at a recent rally but actually showed more of that rally than on any news channel I watched, making the eventual punchline even more biting.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

COLIN JOST: But then this week Trump did strike a positive tone when he stopped questions at a town hall to just dance for 40 minutes. Please enjoy these somehow a hundred percent real clips.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "IT'S A MAN'S MAN'S WORLD")

JAMES BROWN: (Singing) This is a man's world.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HALLELUJAH")

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT: (Singing) Hallelujah. Hallelujah.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "AVE MARIA")

UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #1: (Singing) Ave Maria.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NOTHING COMPARES 2 U")

SINEAD O'CONNOR: (Singing) 'Cause nothing compares...

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NOVEMBER RAIN")

GUNS N' ROSES: (Singing) In the cold November rain.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MEMORY")

UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #2: (Singing, inaudible).

JOST: Special.

(LAUGHTER)

JOST: Like, really special. And you can find all those incredible songs on "Now That's What I Call Dementia."

BIANCULLI: And Seth Meyers, in his opening monologue on a recent edition of his late-night show, mocked Trump's behavior at yet another rally. But Myers did so with a punchline that was so unexpected and so dark, you could hear it reflected in the reaction from his studio audience.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LATE NIGHT WITH SETH MEYERS")

SETH MEYERS: That's right. Former President Trump held a rally over the weekend in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, and suggested that golf legend Arnold Palmer was well-endowed - well, still not as bad as that rally where he suggested that Mike Pence might be hung.

(LAUGHTER)

MEYERS: It does work.

BIANCULLI: Late night, not primetime, is where broadcast TV is thriving these days. Even if most people watch those shows afterward in small clips on streaming services or social media. But I did find at least one absolute delight on prime time broadcast TV. It was on the season premiere of Fox's "The Simpsons," which decided to open its 36th season by presenting its series finale. It wasn't the finale for real, but it was really, really funny.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE SIMPSONS")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) It's the "Simpsons" series finale.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) And now your host for tonight, Conan O'Brien.

(APPLAUSE)

CONAN O'BRIEN: (As himself) Thank you. Yes, thank you. It's such an honor to be with you all for the series finale of "The Simpsons." I knew I was the right man for the job 'cause I've hosted the last episode of three of my own shows and counting.

BIANCULLI: The episode used the excuse of a fake finale to aim at lots of tasty targets - not only the long history of "The Simpsons" but other TV finales and even a very current concern among Hollywood writers. The setup was lengthy but worth every second of it.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE SIMPSONS")

O'BRIEN: (As himself) The time has come to finally end "The Simpsons." But how? The bar had been raised so high by the classic finales of "Mad Men," "Breaking Bad" and "The Sopranos" and lowered by the legacy-ruining farewells of "Seinfeld," "Lost" and "The Sopranos." Their producers wracked their brains to create a finale that would satisfy the show's many fans and many, many haters. Then they came up with the perfect plan - foist the job onto somebody else. Meet that somebody else. I give you the latest in machine learning artificial intelligence, Hack-GPT.

(APPLAUSE)

O'BRIEN: (As himself) This cutting-edge breakthrough in plagiarism has been programmed to write, animate and voice the perfect finale for "The Simpsons," one that wraps up the characters' storylines in emotionally satisfying ways but won't damage the most important legacy of the show, the 2026 grand opening of Homer Simpson's Claim-Jumping Yukon-Rumbling Rock-N-Roller Coaster at Disneyland Shanghai.

(APPLAUSE)

O'BRIEN: (As himself) To create the ultimate finale, the AI has been fed every "Simpsons" episode and the last episode of every television series ever made.

(SOUNDBITE OF COMPUTER BEEPING)

O'BRIEN: (As himself) Hack-GPT is now performing billions of computations to create the perfect story. Who knows how long this process will...

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) Finale complete.

O'BRIEN: (As himself) Oh. Well, that was really quick. Well, let's see what we got.

BIANCULLI: "The Simpsons" really entertained me when it premiered in 1989, and it still really entertains me in 2024. On broadcast TV, that's an absolute rarity.

MOSLEY: David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University.

(SOUNDBITE OF ALF CLAUSEN AND TOM KRAMER'S "THE SIMPSONS END CREDITS THEME ('IT'S A MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD WORLD' HOMAGE)")

MOSLEY: Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.

(SOUNDBITE OF ALF CLAUSEN AND TOM KRAMER'S "THE SIMPSONS END CREDITS THEME ('IT'S A MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD WORLD' HOMAGE)")

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.