Other segments from the episode on February 22, 2019
Transcript
DAVE DAVIES, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. The Academy Awards ceremony is Sunday. Today we continue our series of interviews with Oscar nominees. We begin with actor Rami Malek, who's up for best actor in the film "Bohemian Rhapsody," playing Freddie Mercury of the band Queen. The film's also nominated for Best Picture, Best Sound Editing and Sound Mixing. The title of the film comes from the title of one of their most famous songs.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BOHEMIAN RHAPSODY")
QUEEN: (Singing) Mama, just killed a man, put a gun against his head, pulled my trigger. Now he's dead. Mama, life had just begun. But now I've gone and thrown it all away. Mama, ooh, didn't mean to make you cry. If I'm not back again this time tomorrow, carry on, carry on as if nothing really matters.
DAVIES: Queen's biggest hits were in the '70s and early '80s, among them "Bohemian Rhapsody," "We Will Rock You," "We Are The Champions" and "Another One Bites The Dust." But those records have endured beyond their time on the charts. "We Will Rock You" and "We Are The Champions" became popular chants at stadium sports events. Freddie Mercury was a very theatrical performer with a big personality. He died of complications related to AIDS in 1991.
Rami Malek's performance as Freddie Mercury is a big contrast to his starring role in the TV series "Mr. Robot" as a withdrawn hacker with social anxiety disorder. Terry spoke with Rami Malek in November. Let's start with a scene from "Bohemian Rhapsody." It's 1975, and Freddie Mercury and the members of Queen are in the office of a record executive, played by Mike Myers, talking about the record they're about to release. Freddie Mercury speaks first.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BOHEMIAN RHAPSODY")
RAMI MALEK: (As Freddie Mercury) We'll call the album "A Night At The Opera."
MIKE MYERS: (As Ray Foster) Are you aware that no one actually likes opera?
TOM HOLLANDER: (As Jim Beach) I like opera.
MYERS: (As Ray Foster) Do you?
AIDAN GILLEN: (As John Reid) I do.
MALEK: (As Freddie Mercury) Don't misunderstand, darling. It's a rock 'n' roll record with the scale of opera, the pathos of Greek tragedy, the wit of Shakespeare, the unbridled joy of musical theatre. It's a musical experience rather than just another record - something for everyone, something that will make people feel belongs to them. We'll mix genres. We'll cross boundaries. We'll speak in bloody tongues if we want to.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: Rami Malek, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's so much fun to watch you as Freddie Mercury. Was singing part of your audition?
MALEK: It ended up being part of that audition. I warned them I was not a singer. I told them I don't play the piano. What I do when I'm out on the dance floor could be considered something having to do with rhythm but probably...
GROSS: (Laughter).
MALEK: ...Not.
GROSS: Yeah. All the music credits in the movie are attributed to Queen. So you sang as you were filming, but the music that we're hearing is actually Freddie Mercury and Queen.
MALEK: It's actually an amalgamation. The large majority of it is Freddie Mercury. And in order to sync it up properly, they used bits of my voice in the beginning. It will lead in with my voice and then pick up for the majority using Freddie Mercury's voice - tops and tails, as you call it. It's very difficult to get my voice up to those high notes. At some point, my voice breaks. And it breaks pretty quickly when I'm trying to ascend what Freddie Mercury can do.
GROSS: There's actually a scene where you're at the piano singing a sketch of "Bohemian Rhapsody," and your voice breaks. Is any of that you?
MALEK: Yeah. There are parts that are me. I think the parts that break, yes, that would be considered (laughter) Rami Malek.
GROSS: (Laughter) Should we just hear that bit? (Laughter).
MALEK: Sure.
GROSS: OK. Let us know if you can tell which part is you, OK?
MALEK: You got it.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BOHEMIAN RHAPSODY")
MALEK: (As Freddie Mercury, singing) Goodbye, everybody. I've got to go, got to leave you all behind and face the truth. Mama, ooh, I don't want to die. I sometimes wish I'd never been born at all.
GROSS: OK. So the final note...
MALEK: Yeah.
GROSS: His or yours - voice breaks - what are we hearing?
MALEK: Gosh. The majority of that is, obviously, Freddie Mercury. But somehow, they've found a way to put me in there. And I can't - I really can't tell you. It feels so seamless to me. And that's, I think, one of the greatest aspects of this film is even I watch it and I cannot tell.
GROSS: "Bohemian Rhapsody" is bookended by a - basically, like, a reproduction of the famous Queen performance at Live Aid. That was this huge benefit concert in 1985 for the benefit of people suffering from the famine in Ethiopia. And your performance - there were multiple stages for this. The Queen - I said your performance. The Queen performance was in Wembley Stadium in London to an audience of 72,000 people. So you, as Freddie Mercury, had to reproduce that performance, which is considered one of the great performances in rock history.
So I'm sure you must have studied it move by move, including learning Freddie Mercury's microphone technique because he'd, basically, be handed the mic on the stand but not on the bass. So it was just, like, the pole with the mic on it. And then he'd use that as a prop, you know, strutting around on stage and using it as a - you know, strumming it like it was a guitar, putting it across his groin as if it were a large phallus, you know, all the rock tricks.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: So talk to us about, like, studying, Freddie Mercury during the Live Aid concert and also, like, how he used the microphone.
MALEK: Well, I walked around London for about two months with this half mic. And I think now...
GROSS: Wait. Now I'm going to stop you. When you say half mic, does that mean, like, the pole with the mic on it? Like the...
MALEK: Correct, yeah.
GROSS: You walked around with the mic on it.
MALEK: Yeah, I walked around with the mic attached to it. I just never wanted to lose focus of what I was doing. And that was a very constant reminder. Sometimes, I would tuck the microphone into my backpack. But otherwise, you just look like you're walking around with a piece of metal. And that's quite scary these days.
GROSS: Yes, it looks like a weapon.
MALEK: Exactly. So I kept the mic on it just to remind people, hey, I'm not out to hurt anyone. It was the first thing we shot - Live Aid - day one. We came out, and it was - it's that massive crane shot that goes through the audience and comes right up around the piano and opens to Freddie Mercury - myself, playing him - singing "Bohemian Rhapsody."
And talk about a baptism by fire. I never worked that hard in my life on one particular piece of filming. I spent hours with a movement teacher named Polly Bennett. I always wanted to keep it very spontaneous but, at the same time, honor this fantastic performance that he and Queen gave.
DAVIES: Terry Gross speaking with Rami Malek, who stars as Freddie Mercury in the film "Bohemian Rhapsody." He's up for an Oscar for Best Actor. More after a break - this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF QUEEN'S "KILLER QUEEN")
DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Rami Malek, who's nominated for an Academy Award for his role as Freddie Mercury in the film "Bohemian Rhapsody."
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)
GROSS: Another thing we should mention is your teeth. He had - what? - four extra teeth in his upper mouth. And he had, you know, very buck teeth as a result. And so you had fake teeth that you used, made for you by a famous Hollywood prosthetic teeth designer.
What was it like for you to wear them? Like, how did it change your feeling of your mouth and your ability to talk and sing? - because, like, not only did you have to sing for the performance, even though they weren't necessarily going to use your voice, you still had to sing. So you're doing something you're not used to doing - singing. And you're doing it with teeth that aren't even yours.
MALEK: Yes. The teeth were difficult to get used to. Initially, I put them in my mouth a year prior to shooting and immediately felt insecure. I felt like I was on my back foot in a way. I didn't feel like myself, which did help me quite a bit. But it was a feeling of insecurity that I had to cover them up as well. And I'd been watching so much footage of him. You see him covering up his teeth so often that I thought, how am I ever going to do that?
Well, as soon as those teeth went in, it was second nature. I found myself covering them up so often my lips would dry up, so I found myself licking my lips as he did. But another thing happened. I started to compensate physically by holding my posture better, elongating my body, sitting up very straight. And that's something you also see him do. And I don't know if that was something that affected him or he was born with the elegance that he has. But it did give me a way into understanding a little bit more about him.
His name is originally Farrokh Bulsara, and he wasn't even called that as a kid. A very strong set of buck teeth - and most of the kids in school called him Buckie (ph). So you see this young man who travels from Zanzibar and goes to a boarding school called St. Peter's in India. He travels there on a ship. He feels very, I think, removed and isolated. And when he comes back to Zanzibar, his country is in the midst of a revolution. They have to immigrate to London. And he's a young man at that point, feels like a fish out of water in the 1970s, trying to identify himself sexually as well. I mean, so much stands in the way of this man becoming who he is.
There is something burning inside of him - this dream that he wants to see realized, this music that is so vibrant and yearning to exist outside of him. And everything stands in his way. But when he gets out on a stage, he holds everyone's attention and says, hey. I may have been an outcast and a misfit. And I may feel like I don't belong. But here on this stage, we belong together. I had to demystify him somehow. I thought to myself, here's a young man, immigrated to a country, defied all obstacles to do what he loved. And that was one thing that I could understand. Not to compare myself to him in any way, shape or form, but I am a first-generation American. My family came from Egypt and sought a better life for their children in the U.S. And, you know, obviously, like so many people, they would have loved for us to be doctors and lawyers. My sister is a doctor, so she fulfilled that aspect. But it was very difficult to convince anyone that I wanted to do this and that I could do this.
GROSS: Did you feel like you were going to be letting them down if you failed? That they came here - and often with immigrants, the idea is it's for their children. So if you failed as an actor, would you have been letting them down? Did you feel guilty for even trying for an acting career?
MALEK: It's a good question. Yeah. I did feel a bit guilty. And the only way to compensate for that was just to give it my all. I was in my apartment that we were living in - four of us in a two-bedroom apartment. And I had a stack of manila envelopes. And every morning, I would get up and put my head shot and resume in the manila envelopes. And I remember my father one day standing next to my mom saying, you have a very tenacious son. And I don't think that he knows that I heard him, but I heard that. And it gave me that extra boost I needed to just keep going. And I would take those manila envelopes - I was delivering pizza - I would put them - glue them or tape them to every pizza box I would send out. I would keep them behind the register of the fast-food restaurant I would be working at. And if anyone even producorial came in, they were getting a head shot and resume in their to-go bag.
GROSS: Did you deliver pizzas to, like, famous producers or directors?
MALEK: I did get an audition out of it once, and I thought...
GROSS: Seriously? Really?
MALEK: I did. Yeah, I did. It was for a commercial and still kept in touch with that person who gave me the audition.
GROSS: Did you get the commercial?
MALEK: I did not.
GROSS: What was it for?
MALEK: It was for M&M's.
GROSS: Wow.
MALEK: I will tell you this. One day, I did get a call. I got a call from Mara Casey, who was a casting director for the "Gilmore Girls." And she asked to speak with Rami Malek's agent, and I said, speaking. And she said, well, can I talk to - about Rami Malek coming in for a role on the "Gilmore Girls?" And I said, yeah. And she said, and who am I speaking with? I said, this is he. And she said, you don't have an agent, do you? And I go, no, but we can work on that. And she started laughing. And she said, well, are you SAG? Are you part of the Screen Actors Guild? And I said, as of yet, no. But that's something else we can work on, as well. And she kept laughing. And she's like, listen; you're cute. Call me when you get representation. And I said, listen; we're doing all right. We're having a good time. I see that the scene has only three lines. How about giving a guy a break? And if you're laughing now, chances are I might have you laughing in the room. And she took a few seconds, and she said, you know what, kid? Come on in.
I couldn't believe it. I could not believe it. I went in on that day. And later on that night, I had a callback for that show. And in between that, one of these manila envelopes that I had been stuffing, sending to every agent in Los Angeles, happened to call me in between the audition and the callback. And the confluence of the things that happened on that day still defy me to have any explanation for them. But it was a very profoundly successful day.
GROSS: So you got the "Gilmore Girls" part, right?
MALEK: I got the part the next day.
GROSS: Let's talk a little bit about "Mr. Robot." Now, in this, you're somebody who has serious mental health issues, serious social problems. It's very hard for you to be with people. You're very withdrawn. You literally withdraw into your hoodie most of the time. And you're a hacker by night, but you're, like, a tech worker during the day. In the opening episode of season 1, you walk into a coffee shop - Ron's Coffee shop - and you start talking to the owner of the shop. Let's listen to that scene.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "MR. ROBOT")
MALEK: (As Elliot Alderson) You're Ron. Your real name's Rohit Mehta. You changed it to Ron when you bought your first Ron's Coffee shop six years ago. Now you got 17 of them with eight more coming next quarter.
SAMRAT CHAKRABARTI: (As Ron) May I help you with something?
MALEK: (As Elliot Alderson) I like coming here 'cause your Wi-Fi was fast. I mean, you're one of the few spots that has a fiber connection with gigabit speed. It's good - so good it scratched that part of my mind, the part that doesn't allow good to exist without condition. So I started intercepting all the traffic on your network. That's when I noticed something strange. It's when I decided to hack you.
CHAKRABARTI: (As Ron) Hack...
MALEK: (As Elliot Alderson) I know you run a website called Plato's Boys.
CHAKRABARTI: (As Ron) Pardon me?
MALEK: (As Elliot Alderson) You're using Tor networking to keep the servers anonymous. You made it really hard for anyone to see it. But I saw it. The onion routing protocol - it's not as anonymous as you think it is. Whoever's in control of the exit nodes is also in control of the traffic, which makes me the one in control.
CHAKRABARTI: (As Ron) I must ask you to kindly leave.
MALEK: (As Elliot Alderson) I own everything - all your emails, all your files, all your pics.
CHAKRABARTI: (As Ron) Get out of here right now or I'll call the...
MALEK: (As Elliot Alderson) Police? You want them to find out about the 100 terabytes of child pornography you serve to your 400,000 users? Personally, man, I was hoping it was just going to be some BDSM stuff. You realize how much simpler that would've been?
CHAKRABARTI: (As Ron) I didn't hurt anyone - never did. That's my personal life.
MALEK: (As Elliot Alderson) I understand what it's like to be different. I'm very different, too.
GROSS: That might sound like an expression of sympathy (laughter). But right after that, Rami Malek's character is offered money by the coffee shop owner to cover this up. And Elliot, Rami Malek's character, the hacker, says that he doesn't care about money. And it turns out he's tipped off the police. And as he gets up to leave the coffee shop, the police get out of their cars. And they start walking in to bust the coffee shop owner. It's a great scene, and it kind of hooks you right at that - right at episode 1. How did you get the part of "Mr. Robot?" You weren't very well-known at the time. I mean, "Mr. Robot" is really what made you well-known.
MALEK: Correct. I got the part, actually, auditioning with that very scene. Sam Esmail, who is the creator of "Mr. Robot," had seen me do a miniseries that was from Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks called "The Pacific." And at some point, I came in with another hundred actors or so, did my best and kept coming in and coming in until finally, I did a network test. And I got the role. I never thought that I would be the lead character in any show. And this proved me wrong.
GROSS: Rami Malek, it's really been so great to talk with you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your performances.
MALEK: It's been an absolute pleasure. I don't usually share this much of myself, but I figured, what better place to do it than on NPR with you, Terry? Thank you very much.
DAVIES: Rami Malek recorded last November. He's nominated for an Oscar for best actor in the film "Bohemian Rhapsody." Coming up, we hear from Adam McKay, who's been nominated for Oscars for best direction and best original screenplay for his film "Vice." I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SOMEBODY TO LOVE")
QUEEN: (Singing) I work hard - he works hard - every day of my life. I work till I ache my bones. At the end - at the end of the day - I take home my hard-earned pay all on my own. I go down to my knees, and I start to pray till the tears run down from my eyes. Lord, somebody, somebody, somebody, please - can anybody find me somebody to love? He works hard - every day - every day...
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies sitting in for Terry Gross. The Academy Awards are this Sunday. Our guest, Adam McKay, wrote and directed the movie "Vice", which is up for eight Oscars, including Best Picture, Best Director and Best Original Screenplay. Christian Bale, who stars in "Vice" as Dick Cheney, is nominated in the Best Actor category. "Vice" covers Cheney's years from the time he flunked out of Yale to his eight years as President George W. Bush's vice president, when Cheney used various means to turn himself into, arguably, the most powerful vice president in American history.
"Vice" draws on the work of investigative journalists and combines that with some speculation and comedy. In that respect, it's similar to McKay's previous film "The Big Short" about what led to the financial crisis of 2008. McKay's also made straight-up comedies, like "Anchorman" and "Talladega Nights." He's a former head writer of "Saturday Night Live," where he and Will Ferrell created the sketches satirizing George W. Bush. Terry interviewed McKay last month, shortly after "Vice" was released. Let's start with a scene from the film, when George W. Bush asks Cheney, who, at the time, was CEO of Halliburton, to be his vice presidential running mate.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "VICE")
SAM ROCKWELL: (As George W. Bush) I want you to be my VP. You're the solution to my problem.
CHRISTIAN BALE: (As Dick Cheney) I'm CEO of a large company. I have been secretary of defense. I have been the chief of staff. The vice presidency is mostly a symbolic job.
ROCKWELL: (As George W. Bush) Right, right. I can see how that wouldn't be enticing to you.
BALE: (As Dick Cheney) However, the vice presidency is also defined by the president. If we were to come to a different understanding...
ROCKWELL: (As George W. Bush) Go on. I'm listening.
BALE: (As Dick Cheney) I sense that you're a kinetic leader. You make decisions based on instinct.
ROCKWELL: (As George W. Bush) I am. People always said that.
BALE: (As Dick Cheney) Yeah. Yeah, very different from your father in that regard. Now, maybe I can handle some of the more mundane jobs - overseeing bureaucracy, managing military, energy, foreign policy.
ROCKWELL: (As George W. Bush) That sounds good.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: Adam McKay, welcome back to FRESH AIR and congratulations on the film. Cheney has a legacy. He was one of the most powerful vice presidents in American history. How are his accomplishments still with us, for better or worse, depending on your political point of view?
ADAM MCKAY: I mean, there's no question Cheney is a brilliant bureaucrat, a brilliant operator. He has a patience and an intelligence in viewing Washington, D.C., and how the gears of power work. What Cheney conditioned us to get comfortable with was the idea of, you know, extraordinary rendition, extreme interrogation. These ideas that 20, 30 years ago would have been considered outlandish, suddenly, were very comfortable to the American people. And then the biggest thing he did was by going to war - and then in the end, turned out the intelligence was bogus, which - I mean, if you're right wing or left wing, I think you have to agree that was the case - and how America just moved on from that.
And I think at that point, we started to get comfortable with the fact that our government wasn't entirely working for us and that there were agendas inside our government that didn't represent the will of the people. So I think in an abstract sense, he changed the way we view government. But then in a very tangible sense - I mean, let's face it. The Middle East became completely destabilized. You had the rise of ISIS. You know, they tripled the debt. And then, obviously, the world economy collapsed. And they were, really, the first administration who nakedly put lobbyists and corporate insiders in regulatory jobs.
GROSS: There's a scene I want to play from fairly early in the film. And this is when Cheney is a young man. And he was - and I didn't know this about him. But apparently, this is true because you say most of the stuff in the film is true. He was expelled from Yale. And...
MCKAY: Yeah. Yeah, his - Lynne actually worked with a local businessman who was able to give out two scholarships to Yale every year. But back then, Yale did not accept women. And so Lynne was a straight-A student. You know, Dick Cheney was more of a B student. And she talked her boss into giving Dick a scholarship.
GROSS: So how come - how did he - did he flunk out?
MCKAY: He - (laughter) there's one story he tells. And he doesn't tell a lot of stories. But there's one story he tells about being drunk at a party and riding a tricycle down a staircase very, very drunk. And, I think, he partied a lot. Yeah. He was basically - he lost his scholarship initially. His family tried to scrape together money to keep him there. And then eventually, he flunked out.
GROSS: It's so hard for me to imagine Dick Cheney riding on a tricycle, drunk, down a staircase. But (laughter) you also, in the screenplay, have how he was arrested twice for driving under the influence. And so what happens before the scene I'm going to play is that he's arrested for driving under the influence during a time after he's flunked out of Yale, and he's moved back to Wyoming. And his job, at the time, is kind of hanging powerlines in Wyoming. And so he's doing a lot of, like, climbing poles to hang power lines. So after he's arrested for driving under the influence, Lynne Cheney reprimands him and, basically, gives him an ultimatum. So here's that scene. And Lynne Cheney is played by Amy Adams, and Christian Bale is Dick Cheney.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "VICE")
AMY ADAMS: (As Lynne Cheney) Two times - two times I have to drag you out of that jail like a filthy hobo.
BALE: (As Dick Cheney) I'm sorry, Lynne.
ADAMS: (As Lynne Cheney) What? What did you just say?
BALE: (As Dick Cheney) I'm sorry, Lynney (ph).
ADAMS: (As Lynne Cheney) You're sorry. Don't call me Lynney. You're sorry. One time is, I'm sorry. Two times makes me think that I've picked the wrong man. You already got your ass thrown out of Yale for drinking and fighting. And now you're just going to be a lush that hangs power lines for the state. Are you going to live in a trailer? Are we going to have 10 kids? Is that the plan?
BALE: (As Dick Cheney) Can we discuss this later, please?
ADAMS: (As Lynne Cheney) No, we're going to discuss this right now while you smell like vomit and cheap booze.
FAY MASTERSON: (As Edna Vincent) Does Dick want some coffee?
ADAMS: (As Lynne Cheney) What? Mom, get out. Get out. Does Dick want some coffee? Jesus Christ. OK. Here's my plan, all right? Either you stand up straight and you get your back straight and you have the courage to become someone or I'm gone. I know a dozen guys and a few professors at school who would date me.
BALE: (As Dick Cheney) I love you, Lynne.
ADAMS: (As Lynne Cheney) Then prove it. Prove it. I can't go to a big Ivy League school. And I can't run a company or be mayor. That's just the way the world is for a girl. I need you. And right now, you are a big, fat, piss-soaked zero.
GROSS: OK, a scene from "Vice," written and directed by my guest, Adam McKay. So where does that scene come from? What background did you use for that scene?
MCKAY: That is a story that Dick Cheney talks about a lot and Lynne's referred to a lot. And, you know, that was a moment where Dick Cheney had flunked out of Yale. He was working as a lineman in Wyoming. We're talking the early '60s. That's a tough, tough town, tough state to work in. And what would happen is they would work on the lines all day. They would, you know, climb up and put up the power lines. I think he was an apprentice lineman, actually. So maybe he wasn't fully climbing to the top of the pole.
But - and then at night, they would go out and they would drink - like, old-fashioned, you know, 19th century drinking. And he got a couple DUIs. And I think it was even a little bit more than that, too. You know, to get a DUI in the early '60s in Wyoming, you're really doing some shenanigans with your driving. So we know there was some extreme stuff going on.
So - but he always - he loved her. He loved Lynne Vincent from the second he saw her when he moved from Nebraska to Wyoming when he was, I think, 11 years old. He was crazy about her. And, you know, there are a lot of cases where your girlfriend would say that speech to you and you would go, well, too bad. I'm doing this. But not him - he white-knuckled it. And what he did - it's actually an amazing story. He stopped going into town at night. And he stayed in this little crappy trailer with an old World War I veteran.
And they would sit there, and they would eat, like, canned tuna fish. And Dick would ask him stories about World War I. And that's how he stopped getting into trouble and then eventually got back into college, went to University of Wisconsin, started doing quite well and got on track with Lynne. And then they got married. They were actually boyfriend and girlfriend in that scene and then later got married.
GROSS: So you kind of depict Lynne Cheney as the kind of motivating factor and the power - the ambition behind Dick Cheney's initial climb.
MCKAY: No question. We interviewed some people from Casper, Wyo., to this day. And they still say, no matter who she would've married would've been president or vice president - that this young lady, back in those days, was so smart, so ambitious, so talented. But at that time, there weren't a lot of opportunities for women, so she needed a solid guy. And she picked Dick Cheney.
DAVIES: Adam McKay wrote and directed the film "Vice," which is up for eight Oscars, including Best Picture, Best Original Screenplay and Best Director. We'll hear more of Terry's interview with McKay after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF NICHOLAS BRITELL'S "HE WANTS TO IMPRESS HIS FATHER")
DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Adam McKay, the writer and director of the movie "Vice", which stars Christian Bale as Vice President Dick Cheney. It's nominated for eight Oscars. The Academy Awards are on Sunday.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)
GROSS: In the early part of the George W. Bush administration, when you were head writer on "Saturday Night Live" and Will Ferrell was in the cast, he often played George W. Bush, even during the campaign. And you were his writing partner on that. And then after "Saturday Night Live," you and Will Ferrell did a one-man show. And so it was Will Ferrell as George W. Bush on stage.
Do Cheney and Bush look really different to you now than they did then with the amount of time that has elapsed since you worked with Will Ferrell on George W. Bush material?
MCKAY: Yeah. In the middle of that show, I really started noticing what W. Bush's position was - that he was a name. He was not a serious guy. He was, you know, by a lot of accounts, a fairly OK guy. He was fun to hang out with. And it was really clear when we were doing that show - and I think everyone kind of knew the joke beforehand that Cheney was pulling strings.
But, really, it was during that show that I just was startled by how many decisions were made by Cheney. I started hearing all these stories - you know, the second tax cut they did for the superrich. They were at the big - you know, the table and Cheney said, we should do a second tax cut. And Bush is like, we just did one. And Cheney goes, yeah, but that's our base. And they did it. And they did the tax cut. And there's another story where, finally, you know, W. Bush has gotten Rumsfeld out. And he's meeting with the next secretary of defense. I think it was Gates. And in the middle of the meeting, he just leans forward, and he goes - W. Bush leans forward to Gates and goes, what are you going to do about Cheney? I thought, that is a - wow, that is a very telling story. Like, you're the president. Why would you - so during that...
GROSS: Wait. What do you think he meant by that?
MCKAY: I think he meant, like, he was - he didn't know how to handle him. You know, we know that Bush's father, H.W. Bush - God rest his soul - said, I never would have recommended Cheney for my son if I had known he was going to run a shadow empire out of the White House. I mean, that's an actual quote from his father. So - but that Gates story really stuck with me. I remember hearing that and just thinking, like, wow, that sounds like a guy who's - I don't quite want to say afraid of someone but can't handle someone.
GROSS: So the movie isn't about the Trump administration. It's about the Bush-Cheney administration. But are there any people from the Bush-Cheney cast of characters who have reappeared in the Trump administration and, through making "Vice," you have a different understanding of who they are than you otherwise would have?
MCKAY: You know, a big one was in the middle of editing the movie, we had John Bolton pop up in our story of Cheney and W. Bush. And I thought, you know, maybe we should cut that. That guy, he's such a fringy kind of lunatic. (Laughter) Let's just get him out of here. And I swear to God, three days later, the Trump administration appointed him.
And that kept happening throughout the movie. We kept thinking that there were these characters and these ideas that were going to go away. And they just kept popping up over and over again. But the Bolton one was really funny. I mean, my editor, Hank Corwin, just couldn't believe it. He was like, we were about to cut that. I was like, well, he's back.
GROSS: (Laughter) Yeah, so Bolton was - what? - U.N. ambassador during...
MCKAY: Yup.
GROSS: ...Bush-Cheney and is now national security adviser.
MCKAY: I believe that's correct, yeah - and known for very hawkish, very aggressive foreign policy. Recently, there's footage of him with a giant smile on his face, shaking hands with Putin. That's the image I have fresh in my mind.
GROSS: And he was very anti-U.N. when he became the U.N. ambassador.
MCKAY: Oh, yeah. Bolton's a character. There's no question. And I really thought that was the end of him, so I couldn't believe it when he popped up in the middle of that. And, you know, the funny thing, too, is you see a lot of these characters from W. Bush-Cheney administration who are still out there as pundits. And you still get to hear them, every day, talk about their views of foreign policy. And that's also very strange to see these characters still walking the Earth, (laughter) espousing ideas.
But it also points to the fact that, really, none of these stories are isolated. This is a longer arc of four or five decades. It's a bigger story in transition that's gone on in America.
GROSS: Christian Bale is really fantastic in the movie as Cheney, particularly as the Bush-era Cheney. And some of it is the makeup and prosthetics. But he gets the voice so well. And the breathing - like, you can always hear Cheney when he's breathing, when he's inhaling before the next phrase he's about to speak. And he gets the pacing and the breathing perfectly right. And also, you know, Cheney, when he speaks, it comes out a little more on one side of his mouth than the other.
MCKAY: (Laughter).
GROSS: And Christian Bale got that perfectly. Why did you think of him? I mean, physically, he's the opposite type of Cheney. He's - you know, he's got a very narrow face, or at least that's how I think of it, as opposed to Cheney's much, you know, kind of rounder or more square face. Cheney's heavier than Bale is. Bale had to put on a lot of weight for the role. Christian Bale's Australian, which I never remember when he's playing an American.
MCKAY: Welsh, by the way.
GROSS: Welsh, OK. Yes, Welsh.
MCKAY: Yeah, yeah.
GROSS: (Laughter) But I never remember that he's not, like, a native American accent speaker. So why in the world did you think of him?
MCKAY: I think you just said it. I didn't really care about him looking exactly like him. I was more interested in the kind of psychological build of the character. And there are just very few actors like Christian Bale and Amy Adams that can do that kind of work, where they really build a character psychologically. And so it's not just mimicking gestures or mimicking motions. They know why that motion is happening. They know why that gesture is happening. And there's a psychological history to it. And there's an evolution to it.
And, man, I've never seen anything like it with this movie as far as getting to watch Christian put this character together. It's - everyone on set - every day, he would walk on. There was, like, this quiet reverence for what he was doing. And the depth to which Bale went - wow. It's - I'll never forget the first day where his weight gain mixed with the makeup mixed with all the psychological work mixed with all the character work - when it all came together, I just - literally, the hairs stood up on my arms. I've never experienced anything like it.
DAVIES: Adam McKay is the writer and director of the film Vice, which is up for eight Oscars, including Best Picture, Best Original Screenplay and Best Director. Christian Bale's nominated in the Best Actor category for his role as Dick Cheney. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
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DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Adam McKay, the writer and director of "Vice," starring Christian Bale as Dick Cheney. McKay's up for two Academy Awards in the Best Actor and Best Original Screenplay categories. The film is also nominated for Best Picture.
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GROSS: So making "Vice" was a very eventful period for you. You had a heart attack before the movie was finished. Thank goodness you survived and seem to be in good shape now. What point of the movie were you in when you realized you were having a heart attack?
MCKAY: We had just finished filming. I think we had wrapped for about a week. And it's that period where the editor is putting together the rough assembly of the movie. Hank Corwin was working on it. So you kind of have this little week and a half, two-week break. And, you know, I have a company with Will Ferrell - Gary Sanchez Productions. We're always working on TV and movies, so I was doing a little bit of work producing.
And I just realized I was not in the best shape. I had put on weight during the movie. I was foolish enough to continue smoking, not a ton, but I was - you know, about a half a pack a day, below a half a pack a day. And I just - I didn't feel good. My doctor was warning me. And I was working out my trainer. And in the middle of it, my hands started tingling. And my stomach felt queasy. Well, those aren't normally symptoms you think of with a heart attack. You usually think of pain in the chest and the arm. And so I told my trainer, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm just tired. This is just weird. And he left.
And as soon as he left, I remembered the heart attack scene we shot with Bale when he was running for Congress in Wyoming in the late '70s. And Bale had asked me. He said, how do you want to do the heart attack? Do you want it to be a pain in the arm, the chest? He goes, I could also do the queasy stomach. That's really common. And I remember asking him, like, what do you mean? I've never heard that before - queasy stomach. And he goes, oh, yeah. It's very common. And so that moment just flashed back to me while I was sitting on the couch, and I went, holy Lord. And I ran upstairs and popped, like...
GROSS: You ran upstairs. You're like - you're having a heart attack, so you run upstairs.
MCKAY: Yeah. I mean, you know...
GROSS: (Laughter).
MCKAY: Maybe run is not the right word.
GROSS: Right, OK.
MCKAY: Stumbled, staggered...
GROSS: Yeah, OK.
MCKAY: Maybe that's a better word.
GROSS: OK.
MCKAY: Yeah - careened.
GROSS: Yeah.
MCKAY: (Laughter) And I got upstairs. And I just downed four baby aspirin and called 911. And God bless 911. Within three minutes, they were there. And they had me at the hospital another three minutes after that. And the doctor was like, why did you take those baby aspirin? Like, I think he knew. Usually, the queasy stomach thing, people don't react to that one. And I said, oh, my lead actor in our movie told me (laughter) that's how a heart attack works. And the doctor said, because you acted so quickly, you have no damage to your heart. Your heart's as good as new.
GROSS: Oh, that's such good news.
MCKAY: And then he said, not only that, you have an extra strong heart. So he said, the only dumb thing you're doing is smoking. So he said, if you stop smoking, there's no reason you shouldn't live to be 100 years old. So I have stopped smoking. That is the good news. And my heart is as good as new. But, man, what a scary experience. So I called Christian Bale a week later. And I said, either you or Dick Cheney just saved my life.
GROSS: Did the doctor think the baby aspirin helped?
MCKAY: Oh, yeah, for sure. No, no, that's what they give you. And when I got in the ambulance, they gave me more. I mean, the aspirin thins the blood, which allows it to get around the blockage. It's definitely one of the moves you want to - it's not going to save your life. You still have to go to the hospital. But it mitigates damage. There's no doubt about it.
GROSS: Did you, at any point, think that your life was in danger?
MCKAY: You know, it's funny. You're going through an experience like that. It's such a roller coaster. You don't even really think in terms like that. It's just moment by moment, feeling by feeling. And there were a couple moments that got very intense where I thought, uh-oh. And I remember the one doctor saying when I was in the hospital - because I started to feel better, and then all the sudden I did not feel better. And I remember hearing a doctor going, he's having a heart event right now. And I thought, oh, man, I could really die in this moment.
And the craziest thing was they took me - they call it a cath lab, which I had never heard of before - the catheter lab. And they take you in there, and that's where your heart doctor comes in - your cardiologist. And this was a guy named Dr. Henry, who's one of the best in the world, thank God. And they get to work on you, and they're - you know, they're going to clear out that blockage. And they did, and they were amazing.
And then towards the end, I was on, you know, drugs, obviously. And for some reason, I thought it was very important that everyone at the table know that I'd just done a movie about Dick Cheney (laughter) and how ironic this is that I'm on a table having a heart attack. And of course, no one cares. But I - so I sort of mumbled it. I was like, this is weird. I just did a movie about Dick Cheney. And everyone ignored me, as they should've, except one voice to my right - just after a beat - just said, Dick Cheney - great American.
GROSS: (Laughter).
MCKAY: And I went...
GROSS: That's not the point of your movie.
(LAUGHTER)
MCKAY: I went - you know, it's - in my mind, I was like, I don't want to argue with this guy. I think these people just saved my life. So I just went, it's complicated.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Well, it's really been a pleasure.
MCKAY: Always a pleasure to talk to you, too.
DAVIES: Adam McKay wrote and directed the film "Vice," which is nominated for eight academy awards, including Best Director, Best Original Screenplay and Best Picture. The awards will be presented Sunday.
(SOUNDBITE OF SACKVILLE ALL STARS' "JOHN HARDY'S WIFE")
DAVIES: On Monday's FRESH AIR, the story of the real Green Book, the pre-civil rights era travel guide for African-Americans - the book that helps travellers find safe places to stay, eat, shop and do business. It's the subject of the new documentary "The Green Book: Guide To Freedom." We'll talk with director Yoruba Richen. Hope you can join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF SACKVILLE ALL STARS' "JOHN HARDY'S WIFE")
DAVIES: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. For Terry Gross, I'm Dave Davies.
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