Two new 'SNL' documentaries celebrate 50 years of music, laughs and insights

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As part of "Saturday Night Live's" 50th anniversary celebration this year, tonight NBC will premiere a documentary highlighting the music guests and music comedy sketches that the show has featured over the decades. It's called "Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 Years Of SNL Music." It was codirected by my guest, Grammy-winning musician and Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker Ahmir Questlove Thompson. He's the co-founder, leader and drummer of the hip-hop band the Roots. It's the house band for another late night show, "The Tonight Show" with Jimmy Fallon. Before Questlove talks about the movie and how "SNL" has influenced him as a musician and late night band leader, our TV critic David Bianculli is going to review the film, along with a documentary series that's also part of the 50th anniversary celebration. That series is streaming on Peacock.

DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: The two new "Saturday Night Live" documentaries come from filmmakers who bring their own interests and perspectives. NBC's "Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 Years Of SNL Music" comes from Ahmir Questlove Thompson, who's both a musician and a music historian. The four-part "SNL50: Beyond Saturday Night," now streaming on Peacock, comes from Morgan Neville, who's as interested in the creative process as he is in letting people tell their own stories. Questlove, in his movie-length study, mines the archive of a half-century of musical performances as well as the emergence of hip-hop and other genres into the show and the culture. Some classic performances are run full-length. Others are sampled in cleverly compiled montages and mashups. It's such a solid, well-selected overview that I can think of only one "SNL" music performance I really wish had been included. Paul Simon, backed by Ladysmith Black Mambazo on their thrilling 1986 rendition of "Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes."

But Questlove covers a lot, not only infamous appearances by Elvis Costello, Sinead O'Connor, Ashlee Simpson and Kanye, but even comedy sketches and videos built around music. The infamous "[Expletive] In A Box" Christmas song with Justin Timberlake and "SNL" cast member Andy Samberg is deconstructed, so is another classic "SNL" musical moment featuring guest host Paul Rudd and musical guest Beyonce. Timberlake tells how that got on the air, with Timberlake, Samberg and cast member Bobby Moynihan as her music video backup dancers. Part way through Timberlake's account, we hear the start of the actual "Single Ladies" sketch.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "LADIES & GENTLEMEN... 50 YEARS OF SNL MUSIC")

JUSTIN TIMBERLAKE: Andy texted me. And he said, hey, are you in town? I said, yeah, I'm in the city. He said Bobby Moynihan has this great idea for a sketch about you, me and him being Beyonce's background dancers for "Single Ladies" that never made the cut. She's going to be the musical guest this week. I was like, full, like, leotard? And he's like yeah. And I was like, oh, this is too funny. Like, we have to do this. She was very polite about it, but she was very hesitant. And when I say hesitant, I mean like she was not having it.

PAUL RUDD: Beyonce. Oh, my gosh. I'm so psyched to do this new video with you.

BEYONCE: Me, too. But, you know, there's this one thing. I haven't met the other dancers. Are we going to have time to rehearse?

RUDD: Oh, look, don't worry about the other dancers, B Town. I handpicked them myself. These guys are pros.

BEYONCE: These guys?

TIMBERLAKE: I'm like, does she know how funny this is going to be, like, how beloved this whole moment will be? So I said bring me the leotard. So I put the leotard and the heels and the hose on and everything. And I put a robe on, and I walked and I knocked on her door. I walked in, and I threw the robe down, and I put my hands on my hips. And she was like, no you didn't.

BIANCULLI: Morgan Neville's "SNL" documentary series is broken into four episodes, each one looking at a different aspect of the show and its history. The first one looks at the original audition tapes by many of the people who tried out for "SNL" with those same people watching and reacting to their younger selves. Some scream, some cringe, some cry. Some, like Pete Davidson, laugh.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SNL50: BEYOND SATURDAY NIGHT")

PETE DAVIDSON: But I'm not good at sex, you know, because, you know, I wasn't raised in a brothel. I'm 20. Like, I don't - I'm not good at it. I don't understand why my girlfriend gets mad. She's like, that's it? I'm like yeah, like, what did you expect? Like, you know any good guitar players that have been playing guitar for a year? (Laughter).

BIANCULLI: Another episode spends a week observing how an installment of "SNL" is created by following the process from start to finish, mostly from the point of view of the writers. A third episode gets even more laser focused, spending an hour on a single sketch. And it's a brilliant choice, coming from the midway point of the show's 50-year run. It's the sketch recording session featuring guest star Christopher Walken and cast members Will Ferrell, Jimmy Fallon, Chris Parnell and others. You may know it better by the name most associated with it, "More Cowbell." It's a sketch Walken and Ferrell elevated after the dress rehearsal by going all out in character. The sketch was set during the recording session for Blue Oyster Cult's 1970s hit "(Don't Fear) The Reaper." Ferrell plays a very loud cowbell, and Walken portrays the track's very enthusiastic music producer. Jimmy Fallon remembers.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SNL50: BEYOND SATURDAY NIGHT")

JIMMY FALLON: Christopher Walken, for air, upped his game. He was almost doing an impersonation of Christopher Walken. (Impersonating Christopher Walken) He was talking like no other human being would talk ever.

CHRISTOPHER WALKEN: All right. Here we go. "(Don't Fear) The Reaper," Take 1. Rolling.

WILL FERRELL: All right. One, two, three, four.

(SOUNDBITE OF BLUE OYSTER CULT SONG, "(DON'T FEAR) THE REAPER")

BIANCULLI: Once the sketch began on the live show, Ferrell, who had written it, knew they had connected big time with the studio audience.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SNL50: BEYOND SATURDAY NIGHT")

FERRELL: Are you sure that was sounding OK?

WALKEN: I'll be honest, fellas. It was sounding great, but I could've used a little more cowbell.

(LAUGHTER)

FERRELL: As soon as he delivers that first line - I could use a little more cowbell - and that gets a huge laugh, I'm like, oh, they're in, they're in. Oh, goody, there's more coming.

BIANCULLI: In this new recounting, we do not hear from Christopher Walken himself, which Dana Carvey says is right in character for him. Carvey even slips into character as Walken to make his point.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SNL50: BEYOND SATURDAY NIGHT")

DANA CARVEY: That keeps his cool factor here, yeah, that he's (impersonating Christopher Walken) not going to go down memory lane. Let the work speak for itself.

BIANCULLI: The final episode of Neville's documentary series homes in on one seemingly random but ultimately seminal year, the 1985-86 season when executive producer Lorne Michaels, who had left the show after its first successful five-year cycle with the original cast, was asked back by NBC executive Brandon Tartikoff. "SNL" was in freefall. And the common wisdom was that Lorne never would return to a sinking ship, but he did.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SNL50: BEYOND SATURDAY NIGHT")

LORNE MICHAELS: When Brandon was trying to get me to come back in 1985...

BRANDON TARTIKOFF: Hello. I'm Brandon Tartikoff, president of NBC Entertainment.

(APPLAUSE)

MICHAELS: Someone said, you know, you've already done "Saturday Night Live." Somebody who wants to be you does "Saturday Night Live." And I sought, oh, right. Well, I kind of enjoyed being me.

BIANCULLI: It's one of the few times in either documentary we hear from Michaels. Clearly, he prefers to let the cast and crew and the shows speak for themselves, and they do. Tina Fey and Amy Poehler, among others, tell some really great stories. There may not be enough screen time given to some "SNL" veterans and their stories - from Bill Murray to Kate McKinnon and Sarah Sherman - but there are an awful lot of laughs and memories and music and insights, and just the right amount of cowbell.

GROSS: David Bianculli is professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey. The Morgan Neville documentary series "SNL50" is streaming on Peacock. The documentary "Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 Years Of SNL Music" will be broadcast tonight on NBC and will start streaming on Peacock tomorrow. This is FRESH AIR.

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. The Morgan Neville documentary series "SNL50," it was co-directed by my guest Ahmir "Questlove" Thompson. He's the co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for "The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon," who is a former "SNL" cast member. Questlove has become one of FRESH AIR's most frequent guests because he does so many interesting books and movies, in addition to his work with his band on and beyond "The Tonight Show."

Questlove actually has two new documentary films. The second is about Sly and the Family Stone is called "Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius)." It premiered over the weekend at the Sundance Film Festival and will start streaming on Hulu February 13. We'll talk about that documentary in the next few weeks. His 2021 documentary, "Summer Of Soul," about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival won an Oscar for best documentary. Ahmir, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you back on.

QUESTLOVE: Thank you for having me.

GROSS: Were The Roots ever on "SNL"?

QUESTLOVE: You know, it's weird. I've been on "SNL" in every configuration, except for the one that I want to be on, which is actual music guest. Like, I've been a punchline on Weekend Update. I've been part of a Timothee Chalamet sketch. I've been mentioned in monologues. I've been in, like, a Lonely Island sketch. But I guess one could say that my dream - one of the main reasons why I was excited to be on "The Tonight Show," like, 16 years ago when we first got offered the position, I was, like, great, this puts me within, like, one degree of the brass ring, which is, you know, doing "SNL." So, you know, kind of funny how I'm a part of that ecosystem almost in every way but the one way I want to be, which is, like, musical guest one day. But, you know, The Roots are working on their 17th album right now, so, you know, I'm still hanging onto my dream.

GROSS: Good (laughter). So do you think that the "Saturday Night Live" band, particularly in the Paul Shaffer era - though, I don't know what era you started watching. I assume it was Paul Shaffer.

QUESTLOVE: The very beginning. So my "Saturday Night Live" obsession really starts with, you know - the epicenter of my entire music world is "Soul Train." And it just so happens that, you know, for most of America, especially with "Soul Train" in its prime, you know, everyone has a Saturday afternoon, 12 p.m. cleaning the house, watching "Soul Train" experience. But in Philadelphia, kind of weird - my "Soul Train" experience was always at 1 in the morning. And so I had parents that were very forward-thinking, very cool. And, of course, I'd have to be in bed at, like, 8:30 p.m. So whenever, like, "The Love Boat" theme starts, it's, like, God...

GROSS: (Laughter).

QUESTLOVE: ...Got to go to bed.

GROSS: (Laughter).

QUESTLOVE: Not with that deep voice. But, yeah, basically, got to go to bed. And the agreement was that - be in bed at 8:30, and then at 12:30, midnight, we will wake you up. And by 12:30, Weekend Update is over for "SNL," and then their music guest does two songs. And so I would go downstairs, turn on the TV, watch the two songs from "SNL," whoever the music guest was. And then "Soul Train" comes on at 1 in the morning, and then I'm in bed at 2 a.m. and up for church at 7:30 in the morning. That's pretty much, like, my life from, like, 5 until maybe 11. Then "Soul Train" started coming on, like, in the afternoon. But I never stopped watching "SNL." So, you know, I was there from the very, very beginning. It was nothing like it. I know that's the cliche that you're going to hear a lot about this 50th anniversary, but there was truly nothing like it on television.

GROSS: Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ahmir "Questlove" Thompson. His new documentary, "Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 Years Of SNL Music" premiers tonight on NBC and will start streaming on Peacock tomorrow. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE ROOTS SONG, "WHAT THEY DO")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ahmir "Questlove" Thompson. He co-directed the new documentary "Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 years Of SNL Music." It's part of NBC's celebration of "SNL's" 50th anniversary. It premieres tonight on NBC and starts streaming on Peacock tomorrow.

One of the questions that you ask both cast members and people behind the scenes at "SNL" is, can you hum the "SNL" theme?

QUESTLOVE: Yeah.

GROSS: And so I want to play the attempts to hum the theme and then talk to you about it.

QUESTLOVE: Yes. OK.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "LADIES & GENTLEMEN... 50 YEARS OF SNL MUSIC")

KEENAN THOMPSON: (Vocalizing).

ANDY SAMBERG: (Vocalizing).

JIMMY FALLON: (Vocalizing).

BILL HADER, ET AL: (Vocalizing).

GROSS: I can't hum the theme either.

QUESTLOVE: Hey, no one can (laughter).

GROSS: You were - right. So I immediately went to the actual theme. And I want to - before we hear it, I want to challenge our listeners to just pause and think for a second if they can hum the theme. Now, let's play the theme.

(SOUNDBITE OF TELEVISION'S GREATEST HITS BAND'S "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

GROSS: You know what I realize listening back, which I hadn't ever really thought of before?

QUESTLOVE: What?

GROSS: There isn't a - I mean, it's...

QUESTLOVE: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Like you're coming in in the middle of an improvisation.

QUESTLOVE: It's the most iconic, nondescript theme song. And kind of in my - that was my first realization back when I would - pretty much any Saturday that The Roots aren't touring and they're taping, I'm in the audience watching. And that, to me, is one of the most humorous things ever. Like, wow. Like, you know it when you hear it. You know that's "SNL," but no one can - it's a feeling. It's almost like it's the last theme that offers a feeling, but not any evidence of it. I don't know. It's like trying to put water in your pocket or something like that. Like, it's abundant, but it's not - it's whatever you want it to be.

GROSS: Now, you wrote the theme for "The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon."

QUESTLOVE: Yes.

GROSS: And it's almost as if to avoid people saying, I can't hum the theme. You and the band actually kind of hum, scat the theme (laughter).

QUESTLOVE: Well, the weird thing was, it was by accident. You know, our very - that theme for "The Tonight Show" - the infamous, hey, hey, hey, hey song - was literally - we were making - we were kind of making fun of Santana's "So Cool." And, you know, like, we were just sound-checking. Like, we literally got - there was, like, our first day on the job, and they were, like, all right, guys, play something. And then we just started, you know, mocking a Santana song and just started singing a whole bunch of, hey, hey, heys and then attempted to write about 19 themes, none of which Jimmy liked. And at the end of the thing, he heard the song we were mocking and was, like, that's the song. We're, like, well, no, we were just messing around. Like, that's not a real song. He's, like, yes, it is. And so that wound up being the song. It's ear candy. But I admire the fact that "SNL" for 50 years has been able to provide a feeling without necessarily melodic evidence to it.

GROSS: OK, let's hear a little bit of your theme (laughter)...

QUESTLOVE: OK.

GROSS: ...For "The Tonight Show."

(SOUNDBITE OF THE ROOTS, "THE TONIGHT SHOW THEME SONG")

THE ROOTS: (Singing) Hey, hey, hey, hey. Hey , hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey, hey.

GROSS: So having gone through 50 years of musical guests, what's one of the performances that had a big impact on you when you were a kid and had to be in bed at 8:30, but you managed to watch "Saturday Night Live"?

QUESTLOVE: I will say that, you know, the first five years was pretty much - you know, "SNL" - the role of "SNL" was, that was our YouTube. That was our viral video. For me, that was the one place where I could watch - at the time, I think my all-time favorite artist was Bill Withers. You know, there really just wasn't a show in which you can see actual musicians playing. I mean, you could watch "American Bandstand" or "Soul Train," where they might be lip-synching. Occasionally, on "Soul Train," they play live.

But, you know, back then it was slim pickings. Either Friday night, you watched a midnight special. Sometimes a rock concert would come on, like, Sunday nights. But basically, "SNL" was just - it was a rare moment in which you got to catch really cool bands. So even like Devo coming on. Like, I was 8-years-old when they did the "Jocko Homo" song. Are we not men. We are Devo. And, like, me and my cousins' minds were blown, you know? So practically any group that came on in the first five to six years, I was an instant fan of.

GROSS: One of the things that you highlight in the "SNL" documentary is the role of "SNL" in the world of hip-hop. And tell the story of how Deborah Harry basically broke hip-hop on "SNL."

QUESTLOVE: OK. So "Saturday Night Live" is the first time that America and the world will get to see what hip-hop culture is. The very first rap performance on TV is when Deborah Harry hosts the show in 1981 and brings on Sugarhill act called the Funky Four Plus One More. And she took a liking to this group, even though there were other popular groups at the time. Like, there was Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five and the Sugarhill Gang. Both, like, platinum hits and really music-and-culture-changing songs at the time. But she took a liking to this group because it was similar to Blondie, a band that had a woman in the lead of it, and so she took a liking to them.

And for me, that's such an "SNL" move where, you know, those first 10 years, they weren't about, well, who's the most popular person to bring ratings in? It was always, like, the cool factor. Like, OK, who's the most popular person now? Who's the person under that person that we could give a boost to? And that's, like, a prime example of how cool - how "SNL" always had their finger on the pulse of, you know, who's next. And, you know, as a result, come 20 years later, a lot of those first-time acts, you know, your early hip-hop groups, like, you know, them getting Run DMC before Run DMC was Run DMC. Or them getting Prince before Prince was Prince. Or The Talking Heads or Devo, whoever. Like, a lot of those risks that they took in the first 10- to 15 years, those guys will wind up being, like, the household names and the fiber of the mainstream once "SNL" becomes the mainstream instead of the underground.

So - but, yeah, with Deborah Harry using her power to bring attention to a culture that no one knew about, like, that is a prime moment of the "SNL" effect and how it builds American entertainment culture.

GROSS: My guest is Ahmir "Questlove" Thompson. His film "Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 Years Of SNL Music" premieres tonight on NBC and starts streaming on Peacock tomorrow. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BLONDIE SONG, "RAPTURE")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ahmir "Questlove" Thompson, co-founder, leader and drummer of The Roots, which is, among other things, the house band for "The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon." Questlove has two new documentaries. Premiering on NBC tonight is "Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 Years Of SNL Music." It's about the music guests and music sketches that have been on "SNL" over the decades. It's part of the show's 50th anniversary celebration. Questlove's other new documentary, "Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius)," is about Sly Stone and his band Sly and the Family Stone. It just premiered at Sundance and will start streaming on Hulu February 13.

Some of my favorite parts of the movie are the stories about things that have gone wrong, followed by clips of showing what went wrong and how it really shocked everybody behind the scenes.

QUESTLOVE: Right.

GROSS: And one of those stories is Elvis Costello. So, you know, he does one song during dress rehearsal that I guess he and Lorne Michaels had agreed on.

QUESTLOVE: Right.

GROSS: And then he stops it after a few bars. Let's hear what happens.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "LADIES & GENTLEMEN... 50 YEARS OF SNL MUSIC")

DON PARDO: Here's Elvis Costello.

ELVIS COSTELLO: In the dress rehearsal, we did a song that was on my first album, but I thought it sounded a little too slow. It was a medium-tempo song, and I didn't think it was exciting enough. And I realized - this show is live. We can do anything we want.

(Singing) Calling Mister Oswald with the swastika tattoo. There is a vacancy waiting...

Stop. I'm sorry, ladies and gentlemen. There's no reason to do this song here.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: When he stopped, the hubbub in the studio was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, what's going to happen? You can hear it.

COSTELLO: "Radio, Radio." One, two, three, four.

LORNE MICHAELS: With the Elvis thing, I was sitting with Dan Akroyd on a home base. You're just watching him. And I go, oh, I think we were being hijacked.

COSTELLO: (Singing) I was tuning in the shine on the light night dial, doing anything my radio advised. With every one of those late night stations playing songs, bringing tears to my eyes.

All of this stuff, it builds up in legend in the retelling. But I didn't come out there to give a political lecture. You know, I came out to kind of shake it up.

(Singing) Listen. You had better do as you are told. You better listen to the radio. Wonderful radio.

As we finished the song, the initial reaction in the moment was, I think we better get out of here.

(APPLAUSE)

COSTELLO: Somewhere in it, somebody said in anger, you'll never work on American television again. But the idea I was banned from television is nonsense.

GROSS: That's such a great story. I love it. And he think he made a good - I love both songs, but I do think he made the right choice.

QUESTLOVE: He made the absolute right choice. And, you know, that's the thing about SNL, is there's a risk factor involved. And usually, it starts with no. Like, Eddie Murphy talks about, I did not want to do Hot Tub with James Brown. Justin Timberlake goes on and on about trying to convince Beyonce to do the "Single Ladies" sketch. Like everything starts at no. And it's like, wow, like, you almost talked yourself out of history. And I'm trying to get people in the mind state that, you know, oftentimes, we get in our own heads about why something won't work, and sometimes you just got to take a risk. And you never know. This might be part of the American fiber, the history of it.

But also, I know people have so many questions about what happens on a live show if something goes wrong. Like, for me, one of my favorite clips is the Ashlee Simpson moment where you hear the directors freaking out 'cause they don't know what to do. Should I go to commercial? What do I do?

GROSS: Well, no. Describe what happened.

QUESTLOVE: Well, you know, Ashlee Simpson had a sore throat and was a little iffy about her singing. So she opted to lip-sing instead, and her drummer who's controlling on the music accidentally plays the wrong song for the second song. And...

GROSS: He, in fact, plays the song that we already heard as the first song.

QUESTLOVE: Right. Exactly.

GROSS: So everyone in the audience knows this is wrong, and there's no way of covering that up.

QUESTLOVE: Well, yeah. I mean, they could have just - patiently just stopped the song and started all over again as if nothing happened. But, you know, she infamously does a weird dance and runs offstage, kind of humiliated. And they go to a commercial. It just so happens that Oz Rodriguez, my co-director of this documentary, said that, you know, they also have the audio recording of the production room, like, what was happening at the time. And for me, it was so hilarious to hear the producers and the directors inside of the control room.

It sounds - to me, it sounds like a bunch of teenagers that stole their parents' car in San Francisco, and then the car is, like - the brakes just give out in a San Francisco hill going down 100 miles per hour...

GROSS: (Laughter).

QUESTLOVE: ...Like, what do we do? Oh, no. Oh, no. You know, so I love showing, like, not how the sausage is mad, but, you know, you get to see what's under the trunk. And that to me is the most fascinating part of "SNL," like, how it's able to happen every week without fail.

GROSS: Let's hear some of what happened behind the scenes.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "LADIES & GENTLEMEN... 50 YEARS OF SNL MUSIC")

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Uh-oh.

ASHLEE SIMPSON: (Singing) On a Monday.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Oh [expletive]. Oh - wrong song. Wrong song.

SIMPSON: This is bad.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: They should play it.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: And it was just like, you know, those old movies of two locomotives hitting each other, full bore.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: What are we doing? I don't know. She should sing.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: People running in and out of the studio, and it just seemed like the show came to a screeching halt

GROSS: And the rumors were, after that - I think there were two rumors after that, if I remember correctly. One was that, oh, she really can't sing, so - not because of a sore throat, but because she's not capable of singing live...

QUESTLOVE: Right.

GROSS: ...And therefore, they had to have her lip sync. And the other rumor was, oh, there's probably lots of acts that are really lip syncing.

QUESTLOVE: Well, you know, the thing is, you know, we went through this, like, 10 years before with Milli Vanilli, you know, kind of this is what I call the post-"Thriller" effect of 1982, where suddenly, your music video became the most important way to sell the song. And, you know, it came to the point where if you're in concert, fans expect whatever you did on your video - you would have to surpass it, and, you know, because Michael Jackson's introducing this whole idea of, like, not only do you have to sing the song, but you have to sell the song, dance the song, act the song. For most people, it's hard to - it's hard enough just to sing it, but also to sing and perform or dance or whatever you have to do, you know, there - since the '80s, there have been options on how to sell the song without you giving up your voice or whatever. And so, I mean, kind of the lip singing aspect has been a thing since the early '80s, but for me, as a musician, that's just a fact of life, but for a lot of people there - there's a smoke and mirror aspect to it. And I guess with that Ashlee Simpson performance, you know, most of America found out that half their favorites kind of do that. Like, it's just the standard.

GROSS: Really?

QUESTLOVE: I don't want to pop any more balloons than I have to, but it's just - again, like, from the artists that I talked to, it's like they might get in their heads that, you know, if I move too much, and I'm out of breath, then I won't be able to hit the notes like I normally do. You know, I think people - again, the thriller effect is it must be perfect. And I'm kind of from the school of warts and all. Like, I love seeing the warts. I love seeing the pimples, the mistakes. Like, to me, that's the human touch. And I think people need to trust that more. Like, you know, things don't have to be Instagram filter perfect 24/7.

GROSS: So, I assume that what they're lip syncing to is a live performance. That's not the record.

QUESTLOVE: You...

GROSS: Oh. OK.

QUESTLOVE: ...Know, for them. There's some people - you know what? There's a few artists that are smart enough that will maybe do eight specific takes of a particular performance so that you're under the impression that they are, you know, what's up, Detroit? How y'all doing? You know, like, they'll go that far. Like, I know artists that will do, like, 10 or 20 versions of a song to sort of customize or not get called out there. But I think just in the name of presenting a perfect package, that's what people go through. But...

GROSS: You're talking about in concert right now, right?

QUESTLOVE: Yeah. In concert or, you know, I'm on television. I'll say that 90% of, you know, it's very rare for a person to just go 100% live. Like, I'll say that on "The Tonight Show," 85 to 90% of what you see is a perfected delivery. Like, in their minds, it's like, I must sell this song to sell my album. And so they don't want to leave risk or to chance any - you know - any flub that would make you say, no, that note was flat, so I'm not supporting that group. So yeah, that's kind of where we are now in entertainment.

GROSS: Well, you solved one mystery for me, which is, how do singers manage to sing when they're doing this elaborate workout with their choreography when you're going to be out of breath?

QUESTLOVE: Exactly. So pretty much it's just par for the course. Like, it's always been that way. But when I go to "SNL," yeah, I'm entertained by what I see, but I'm not sitting in the audience just to watch "Saturday Night Live." Like, for me, the best part of the show is what happens in the commercials. Like, watching the teamster guys and the crew guys, like, a furious pace in two minutes, like, build an entire set while you know, the artists are quick changing in the back, and will they make it in in two minutes flat? And to me, that's the best part of the show, like, watching the choreography of a well-oiled machine.

GROSS: My guest is Questlove. His film, Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 Years Of SNL Music," premieres tonight on NBC and starts streaming on Peacock tomorrow. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF DICE RAW SONG, "PREGUNTA")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Questlove. His documentary, "Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 Years Of SNL Music" is part of "SNL's" 50th anniversary celebration. It premieres on NBC tonight and starts streaming on Peacock tomorrow.

So, you know, we were talking a little bit about how you ended up being the band leader of "The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon," did Paul Shaffer or any subsequent band leaders influence your, like, how you wanted to be both as an individual and as a band on "The Tonight Show?"

QUESTLOVE: Absolutely. So even though Paul Shaffer was the first generation "SNL" late night band, when Paul went to "The David Letterman Show," which, you know, I will say "The David Letterman" talk show, especially in its first 10 years, it was such a kind of '80s counter culture moment. My parents always felt that those guys were hip, even though they were, like, totally nerdy, they kind of liked the irony hip, the nerdy hip of Paul and David Letterman. And so, as a kid, I just, you know, Paul was just, like, the coolest guy ever. And so, you know, I mean, at the time, I didn't realize as a 10-year-old that, you know, someone were to come to me and say, you know, young man, in 35 years, that will be you on television. Like...

GROSS: (Laughter).

QUESTLOVE: ...(Laughter) You know, like, my version of, you know, "A Christmas Story," you know, like, my Jacob Marley. But to me, when I was offered the "Late Night" thing, when you're doing the pros and the cons of it all, yeah, in my head, I was like, wow, you know, this is my chance to be the Paul Shaffer. But Paul is very unique. I'm definitely not the Paul Shaffer of "The Tonight Show." Like, you know, Paul and David almost have this Run DMC-esque finish each other's sentence kind of camaraderie going on. I'm not there with Jimmy yet, but, you know, I've made my mark still.

GROSS: So, several of the people who have been music guests on "Saturday Night Live" talk about how nervous they were the first time around or the only time around. And one of them is Dave Grohl, who talks about how his first appearance with Nirvana, he was so nervous - he played so hard. He said, when I get nervous, I play really hard - that he broke, like, a drumstick within 20 seconds and a little while later, broke through the skin of one of his drums. But I wonder if that's something you have to deal with on "The Tonight Show." Do you ever have to calm down guest artists who Calm down guest artists who either get nervous...

QUESTLOVE: Whew.

GROSS: ...In front of an audience in general, or just get nervous 'cause they're not really used to, you know...

QUESTLOVE: Oh.

GROSS: ...National TV.

QUESTLOVE: All the time. I can tell what type of artist we're dealing with based on how late the camera blocking, the rehearsal the day of is. And kind of a way that artists handle that control issue is usually with time. Oftentimes, we'll get an artist that will drag their feet, you know? They're - it's now 10 minutes late. It's now 15 minutes late. And, you know, artists don't understand, like, blue-collar and white-collar office politics. Like, hey, we're a union group, and we have to take an hour break at this specific time, and, you know, things that they don't generally get. You know, artists are sometimes in their own ecosystem, their own world, their own bubble, where they're not thinking, like, oh, am I going over union time? Like, we might have to do lunch and a half or, you know, like, things that only office people understand. And I learned long ago, like, this is why I'm really big on micro meditation and, you know, just sitting in a quiet room for, like, 10 minutes before I go on. Because sometimes you have to just calm yourself down so that you can really focus on what you have to do. But a lot of times, artists are in their own heads and they often talk themselves out of, you know, the magic. Because they're - when you're worrying, you're almost praying for something bad to happen. Like, that's my definition of worrying. Like, oh, I hope I don't mess up. You're basically saying, hey, I would like to mess up, just subconsciously. So as a result, most artists will stall, take their time, be an hour late, be two hours late, not show up at all, hijack their career in the name of fear. And as always, like, once you do it, then it's like, oh, that's all it was. No big deal. But, you know, I'm used to it 'cause I've been doing this for a couple of decades. But oftentimes, I'll pull an artist to the side and just be like, OK, I want you to listen to my voice. I want you to inhale.

(SOUNDBITE OF INHALING DEEPLY)

QUESTLOVE: Exhale.

(SOUNDBITE OF EXHALING DEEPLY)

QUESTLOVE: I do that a lot to them, especially the new artists that are, like, nervous and scared.

GROSS: You can't say, don't worry about it. It's no big deal. It's just national TV.

QUESTLOVE: No. See, people in their heads, and, you know, it's a tightrope walk, and I get it. Like, it's easy to think, like, what if I fail? What if this doesn't work? What if no one likes me? But, you know, there's another side of that coin, which is like, what if this works out? What if everyone loves me, you know? Again, leading to the slide dock, one of the biggest themes is, you know, there's a fear of failure, but the bigger fear is actually the fear of success. Like, what if it does work?

GROSS: Ahmir, it's been so great to talk with you. Thank you for being such a regular guest on our show. It's really - it's a joy.

QUESTLOVE: Thank you.

GROSS: Ahmir Questlove Thompson's new film "Ladies And Gentlemen... 50 Years Of SNL Music" is part of "SNL's" 50th anniversary celebration. It premieres on NBC tonight and starts streaming on Peacock tomorrow. There's a Part 2 of that interview in which we talk about another new Questlove documentary about Sly Stone and his band Sly and the Family Stone. It's called "Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius)." It just premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, and will start streaming on Hulu February 13. We'll feature that interview sometime in the next few weeks. After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review Ringo Starr's new album. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF GARY BURTON'S "MOVE")

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. Ringo Starr has released a new album of country songs called "Look Up." It's a collaboration with producer T Bone Burnett, who wrote many of the songs. And it features appearances by Alison Krauss and a new young bluegrass star, Billy Strings. Ringo recently taped a country special that will air on CBS in the spring, and in February, he'll make his debut at Nashville's Grand Ole Opry. Not bad for an 84-year-old ex-Beatle. Rock critic Ken Tucker has a review of "Look Up."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LOOK UP (FEAT. MOLLY TUTTLE)")

RINGO STARR: (Singing) It's a long way down and there's no bottom. You had the blues, but you forgot them. Look up. In the midnight hour, look up. Love is the higher power. Keep your eyes on the skies. Don't look down on the shadows town. Look up.

KEN TUCKER, BYLINE: Beatle fans have known of Ringo Starr's love of country music ever since he had The Fab Four cover the Buck Owens hit "Act Naturally" in 1965, singing a rare lead vocal. "Look Up" isn't even Ringo's first country album. That was way back in 1970. It was called "Beaucoup Of Blues" and was more self-conscious and lugubrious than the new one, which radiates the confidence and ease that an aging professional can bring to his material.

(SOUNDBITE OF "BREATHLESS (FEAT. BILLY STRINGS)")

STARR: (Singing) Every time I think about you, I never want to live without you. And every time you come around, I'm spellbound. I'm spellbound. Yeah. When I see you on the boulevard, my spirit flies and my heart beats hard with a love that's deathless and I'm breathless.

TUCKER: While producer T Bone Burnett has written most of the music here, he and Ringo have selected some clever new songs, including a couple by an old pro, Billy Swan. Swan will forever be known for one beautiful No. 1 hit, "I Can Help" from 1974. Swan's always charming songwriting yields this lovely interlude called "You Want Some."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "YOU WANT SOME")

STARR: (Singing) Well, I got love to give, baby, that's better than none. You want some? You want some? Deep down in my heart is where it all comes from. You want some? Oh, baby, you want some?

TUCKER: What makes Ringo such an effective country vocalist? Well, the rhythmic sense that made him a great rock drummer guides the way he phrases, giving a country lyric the air necessary to breathe life into the story it's telling. Freed from the demands of rock 'n' roll volume when singing with the Beatles, Ringo's crooning possesses the kind of relaxed authority that usually only a genius like Willie Nelson or Ray Charles can make sound so easy.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TIME ON MY HANDS")

STARR: (Singing) I used to have a true love, everything was fine, but now she's found a new love. She's no longer mine. I thought it was forever, but she had other plans. Now these arms are empty, and I've got time on my hands. I turned my collar up, kept my eyes turned down. I walked the empty streets, the blue side of town. When she was my baby, I was a busy man. But she slipped through my fingers, and I've got time on my hands.

TUCKER: Ringo spent a good chunk of his post-Beatle career fronting a series of what he calls his All-Starr bands with a rotating cast of rock stars. The 11 songs on "Look Up" feature less glitzy but no less strong support from Nashville vets like bassist Dennis Crouch, pedal steel player Paul Franklin and younger budding stars like guitarist singer Molly Tuttle and bluegrass guitar phenomenon Billy Strings. Strings' most recent album released late last year, "Highway Prayers," has brought him a larger audience than bluegrass usually attracts. The biggest guest star on this album is Alison Krauss, with whom Ringo hits an emotional peak on this collection called "Thankful."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THANKFUL")

STARR: (Singing) I needed a friend to help me along. I needed somebody here to help me sing my song. Now I have good days. I'm changing my ways, and it's a beautiful day here in California.

ALISON KRAUSS AND RINGO STARR: (Singing) And when you came along, my shelter from the storm, I put my life into your hands, and you made me a better man. And now I'm thankful for the love you've shown, your love for me I've never known. Thankful for the stars above, hoping for more peace and love.

TUCKER: The gratitude that Ringo expresses on "Thankful" is what has made him such a beloved figure. He always came across as the most modest Beatle, grateful he'd lucked into being a member of the most influential rock band in history. But his underrated talent, his quietly persistent hard work over the years, it's all contributed to the strength of this collection, in which Ringo Starr emphasizes the value of simple, straightforward sincerity.

GROSS: Ken Tucker reviewed Ringo Starr's new country album called "Look Up." Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Harvard professor and MacArthur Fellow Imani Perry. Her new book is called "Black In Blues: How A Color Tells The Story Of My People." Perry's last book, "South To America," won the National Book Award for nonfiction in 2022. I hope you'll join us. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "COME BACK")

STARR: (Singing) When you go away, as night turns into day, I walk alone and feel you gone through streets of stone until the dawn.

(SOUNDBITE OF INCREDIBLE BONGO BAND'S "APACHE")

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