TV critic David Bianculli

DATE July 24, 2003 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A

Interview: Gene Robinson talks about possibly becoming the world's first openly gay bishop of the Episcopal Church
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

The Episcopal Church is in the middle of an internal debate about whether a
gay man should be permitted to serve as a bishop. At the center of the
controversy is my guest, Reverend Canon Gene Robinson, the bishop-elect of the
New Hampshire Diocese. If he is confirmed at the Episcopal USA Convention
next week, he will be the first openly gay man to become a bishop in the
church.

The church is part of the Anglican Church. Yesterday, after meeting in
Virginia, an international group of Episcopal and Anglican leaders expressed
their opposition to Robinson's confirmation. The group included five Anglican
bishops from Africa, Asia and Australia and more than 50 conservative American
Episcopalians. They issued a statement staying that if the church confirms
Robinson or agrees to bless same-sex unions, it would precipitate a dramatic
realignment of the church.

Earlier this month, 24 conservative American bishops released a statement
saying they would join conservative leaders in Africa, Asia and South America
and break away from the US branch of the church if it confirms Robinson or
endorses a resolution to bless same-sex unions. I asked Bishop-elect Robinson
to give us his understanding of the opposition.

0000 Reverend GENE ROBINSON (Episcopal Church): I hope I can do this justice. I
believe they feel that the fact that I am openly gay and living in a committed
relationship disqualifies me to be the kind of wholesome example that we
expect our bishops to be. That is certainly in contrast to what the Diocese
of New Hampshire, the people and clergy of the diocese who have known me for
28 years have known my service to them and believe I am the person to lead
them into the future.

GROSS: Now on July 18th, a letter was released from 24 conservative American
bishops who said that they would break ties with the US Episcopal Church if it
votes to confirm you as bishop or if it endorses a resolution to bless
same-sex unions. How serious a threat is that to your ordination, do you
think?

Rev. ROBINSON: It is a serious threat and I guess I want to say that I take
these issues very seriously. I am not dismissing them in any way and I would
like to think that these folks are following their call from God as faithfully
as I'm trying to follow my call from God. But there are several things in
their statement that are problematic for me. One is that they state that what
is at stake here are fundamental doctrines. In fact, a few years ago there
was an ecclesiastical trial of Bishop Walter Ryder for ordaining an openly gay
man in a relationship, not celibate. And, indeed, that ecclesiastical court
found that that was not a violation of core doctrine of the Episcopal Church.
And it's interesting to note that most of the people who brought those charges
against Bishop Ryder are signatories to this letter on July 17th. So they
were not able to get what they wanted in such an ecclesiastical heresy trial
and are now trying to get the church to state it in another way.

GROSS: Now you also face opposition from religious leaders in Africa and
other parts of the developing world. Africa, India, South America, Southeast
Asia--leaders from that country severed relations with the diocese in
Vancouver, Canada, after its bishop said it would bless same-sex unions. So
there's a lot of anti-gay sentiment that is very strong in a lot of developing
countries right now. That must be very difficult for you. My guess would be
you would like to see yourself as standing in solidarity with people from the
developing world and yet the religious leaders in that part of the world seem
to be opposed to homosexuality and to your ordination as bishop.

Rev. ROBINSON: Well, the fact of the matter is, I will be standing in
solidarity with my brothers and sisters in Christ across the world. I want
them in my church and I will continue supporting efforts in that part of the
world to alleviate poverty, to bring the news of Jesus Christ to the people
and so on. The problem apparently is that they don't seem to want me in their
church.

I think it's important to note that this is not a universally held feeling
across the two-thirds world. Indeed, the primate of the Anglican Church of
Southern Africa, Archbishop Ndungane, has expressed great support for us
here and says he has absolutely no intention whatsoever of breaking communion
with any other province of the Anglican communion. Also the primate of the
Anglican Church of Australia has also expressed great support, as have some
bishops in Brazil and so on. So it's certainly not a monolithic response.

It is troubling because I think it raises the issue of how we go about
interpreting Scripture and that, of course, is at the heart of what it means
to be Christian. We all have different means of interpreting both the Hebrew
and the New Testament Christian texts and how we go about that really does
separate us in many ways, one from another, within the church.

GROSS: What would you say is the difference between how you interpret
Scripture on the issue of homosexuality compared with the interpretations of
those who oppose homosexuality and think that you should not be ordained
because you're gay?

Rev. ROBINSON: It's very important, I believe, when we go to Scripture to
ask the question: What did the writer of this text mean when he or she wrote
it? What did the hearers for whom it was written, what did they hear when
they read it? And only then ask what it means for us today. Old Testament
Scriptures that are found in Leviticus in particular are pulled out as proof
indeed that God finds homosexuality an abomination. There are several
problems with that. In verses just before and just after, we have
prohibitions against wearing two kinds of clothing at the same time, planting
two different kinds of seed in a field, not eating shellfish, not touching
women who are menstruating. There are lots of things which no one would
consider binding today. And yet these two verses are pulled out and touted to
be binding on us today.

The other problem there is that homosexuality, as a sexual orientation, is a
construct that's only about a hundred years old. So for us to take that
construct and read it back into ancient text just does not do justice to those
texts. There's no question that the seven very brief passages that are seen
to be related to homosexuality in Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, are
negative. But what I would maintain is that they do not in any way address
what we're talking about today which are faithful, monogamous, lifelong
intentioned relationships between people of the same sex. Scripture simply
does not address that issue.

GROSS: Well, what do you think Scripture was addressing? What kind of
homosexual relationships?

Rev. ROBINSON: Well, everyone was presumed to be heterosexual. As I say,
the notion of orientation is really quite a modern construct. So everyone was
assumed to be heterosexual so to behave in a same-sex manner, to engage in
that kind of behavior was seen to be acting against one's nature. The Old
Testament verses really are a way of defining who the Hebrews would be in
contrast to those pagan cultures around them, when they resettled back in the
land of Israel.

In the New Testament, St. Paul is talking about two things that we would be
absolutely opposed to today. One was cultic prostitution, no one is arguing
for that. The other was the practice quite common among the Greeks where an
older man would take an adolescent boy, sort of bring him up and have sexual
relations with him. That is just simply child abuse. And we would not argue
for such a thing today.

So I would be opposed to the very things that the Bible is opposed to relating
to same-sex behaviors; it's just that the Bible was not written in a time when
anyone contemplated the thought of mutual loving, monogamous, lifelong
relationships between people of the same sex.

GROSS: Now I heard one of your critics from within the Episcopal Church
saying that to say that things have changed on homosexuality is to say that
God has some kind of learning curve and the things that are in Scripture, you
know, should be changed now. Well, that's like saying, `God didn't know then
what he knows now.' And, you know, that would make God very imperfect.

Rev. ROBINSON: I heard the same comment and I think it's quite silly to say
that. No one would maintain that God is on some kind of a learning curve.
Humankind, on the other hand, is on an enormous learning curve. Look at what
we've learned about. Really, in our recent past, until 30 years ago, the
Episcopal Church excluded women from the priesthood and from the episcopate.
We back in the '60s fought all those battles about the full inclusion of
people of color. We are still fighting racism within the church and within
the culture. A hundred and fifty years ago, no one would have raised the
question of--or few people were raising the question of slavery. So it's not
God that's on a sharp learning curve, it's humankind.

And I believe that God is doing a new thing, both in the culture and in the
church, by teaching us about the full inclusion of gay and lesbian folks. Gay
and lesbian folks who have been created by God as who they are and, thanks be
to God, are coming to claim their full inclusion in the church.

GROSS: My guest is Reverend Canon Gene Robinson, the Episcopal bishop-elect
of New Hampshire. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: My guest is Canon Gene Robinson, bishop-elect of the Diocese of New
Hampshire. He's scheduled to be voted on by the International Episcopal
Convention at the end of this month. If he is confirmed, he will be the
first openly gay minister to be elected bishop of an Episcopal diocese.

Do you think that there is the possibility that the Episcopal Church will be
split in two over the issue of the ordination of you, of a gay priest?

Rev. ROBINSON: Well, I certainly hope not. I think it would break God's
heart if we were to come apart over this. And, frankly, there's just simply
no reason in the world why we would come apart over this. The bishops who
issued their recent statement talked about--that we would have an impaired
communion. Well, frankly, we have an impaired, that is an imperfect,
communion now. Again, going back to the issue of the full inclusion of women
in the life of the church, while the Episcopal Church in the United States
ordains women to the priesthood and to the episcopate, the vast majority of
the Anglican communion does not include women in those ways. We did not come
apart over that issue, despite all of the predictions that, indeed, we would
split over that.

The real gift of the Anglican communion is that we find our unity in our
belief in Jesus Christ and our service to him. Within that framework, we
disagree about all kinds of things. We disagree about abortion. We disagree
about homosexuality. We disagree about whether we should have gone into Iraq
or not. We disagree about who should be president. We disagree about many,
many things. And there is no reason for us to come apart over any one of
those issues if we find our unity in our belief in Jesus Christ.

And even to be a little bit provocative about that, I think to take any one
issue, whether it be abortion or homosexuality or whatever, to take any one
issue and to say that is more important than our faith in Jesus Christ and our
common life which we find in him, to raise that above even that core belief
borders on the idolatrous. It means that we are worshiping some one issue
more than we are worshiping our god and that seems ill-placed to me.

GROSS: I understand that's your opinion. But for your opponents and for the
opponents of homosexuality, they feel that the ordination of a gay bishop is,
you know, a sacrilege, and some of the leaders of the Episcopal Church would
really like to separate from the church so that they don't have to be a part
of a church in which that is allowed to happen. Is there pressure on you to
step down so that this kind of split doesn't happen?

Rev. ROBINSON: Yes, there is pressure for me to step down. I've received
lots of letters about this and e-mails, especially since Canon Jeffrey John
stepped down in the Church of England from his appointment. But I think it's
very important to say that I am unwilling to take onto my shoulders the future
of the Anglican communion. Our communion is strong and it is strong because
God is a part of it. This is God's church. This is not our church. And the
gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I believe that. And also, it's
wrong to say that I am causing or would cause such a split. I want those
people in my church. I want them to stay. I want to be in communion with
them. I want to talk with them and I want to take communion with them. If
they choose to leave, I just have to say, that's their choice. I don't want
them to leave. No one I know wants them to leave. And so if they do leave,
it will be because they have chosen to and not because they have been forced
to.

GROSS: You've said that you respect other people's right to follow what they
believe is God's will and you're following what you believe is God's will and
continuing to offer yourself as bishop of the Diocese of New Hampshire.

Rev. ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: How do you know that you're following God's will? Like what kind of
feeling do you have that enables you to be confident that you are being called
to assume this position as bishop?

Rev. ROBINSON: I think it's very dangerous when anyone presumes to know the
inner mind of God. And I would never, never claim to be absolutely sure that
I am doing God's will. Because our perception of God's will is imperfect, as
we are in every part of our lives. What I can tell you is that in my own
prayer life, as I have wrestled with this, and believe me, none of this
controversy and none of the threats and none of the possibility of schism,
none of that has been unknown to me. I've been praying about it for years.
But as I go to God in prayer, I believe that God is calling me forward in my
imperfect way, forward to see this thing through.

I also work very carefully with a spiritual director. A spiritual director is
someone who talks with you about your prayer life and what you believe you're
hearing from God and so on. And the reason I do that is to make sure that the
voice I hear is God's voice and not just my own ego doing a magnificent
imitation of God's voice.

GROSS: A British bishop, John Jeffrey, recently stepped down after admitting
that he'd been in a gay relationship for 27 years, although he had said he had
been celebrate for the last decade. I interpret that to mean that people
didn't know that he was gay or they didn't know that he was practicing. How
does your situation compare with his? He felt compelled to step down. You
feel compelled to keep moving forward.

Rev. ROBINSON: You know, my bishop says that the H-word that we are arguing
over is not homosexuality, but honesty. It's very interesting that in the
British church, in particular, everyone knows that there are already gay
bishops. There are many gay priests, many of whom live in a continuing
relationship with a person of the same sex. But there seems to be this great
conspiracy, I suppose you could call it, something like `don't ask, don't
tell.' Everyone knows it, no one wants to talk about it. God forbid that we
should be honest about it. What an awful thing for the church to be punishing
honesty. It was very sad to see Canon John step down and I believe that he
and his partner have been through an awful lot in this latest, what I would
call, tragedy. And I believe it will not be very many years before the people
in England will see it for the tragedy that it is.

My own situation was that when I came out some 17 years ago, I made a promise
to myself and to God that I would no longer lie about who I was, that I was
going to claim the person I was created by God to be. I was open and honest
with my children who were quite young at that point and I've never looked back
on that. I've never regretted that decision to be honest.

I also know a God who wants me to be in relationship with people in general,
but also longs for me to be in relationship with a single person and it has
been my great fortune to find a partner who is with me in my life, who,
although he's a very private person, has agreed to be in this incredible
limelight that I find myself in. So Canon John and I are different in that
way in that at least I'm in a part of the church where being open and honest
about who one is is possible and less dangerous than it is in the Church of
England.

GROSS: When you were elected in New Hampshire as a bishop of the diocese
there, how much did homosexuality come up? Was it a big issue of debate in
New Hampshire?

Rev. ROBINSON: This was such a delightful thing about the election here in
New Hampshire because it was really a very small part of what people talked
about here. They have known me for 28 years. The people of New Hampshire
have known my partner for 14 years. My partner was very much a part of the
election process in that when the other nominees and their spouses came to
meet everyone in New Hampshire, my partner came long with me. So it was no
secret to anyone in New Hampshire. But they put it in its logical and
appropriate place. And so it played a very small part in the discussions.

People here wanted to know what my vision for the diocese was going to be
like. How would my episcopate be different than the bishop who precedes me?
How would I include small congregations in the life of the diocese? And how
would I see that they got good clergy even though they were only able to hire
them part-time? Those were the things on people's minds here. And what's so
discouraging is to have had all those issues and the issue of my experience
and my service to the people of New Hampshire, which was at the forefront of
the election process here, now it's as if none of that matters. None of my 28
years of experience, nor the skills or gifts that I bring to ministry matter.
On the national level, all anyone seems to want to talk about is my
orientation. And it's very sad to me and it does a great disservice to the
people of the Diocese of New Hampshire who elected me based on all of these
other criteria.

GROSS: Reverend Canon Gene Robinson is the Episcopal bishop-elect of the New
Hampshire Diocese. He'll be back in the second half of the show.

I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

(Announcements)

GROSS: Coming up, Bishop-elect Gene Robinson discusses his own coming out and
the understanding he reached with his wife and children when he did. And TV
critic David Bianculli reviews the new makeover show, "Queer Eye For the
Straight Guy" on the Bravo cable network and considers NBC's decision to
broadcast an episode tonight.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Reverend Canon Gene
Robinson, the episcopal bishop-elect of New Hampshire. If he is confirmed
at the Episcopal USA Convention next week, he will be the first openly gay man
to become a bishop in the church. A group of international Anglican and
Episcopal leaders warned yesterday that if he is confirmed, it could lead to a
dramatic realignment of the church, implying they might lead a movement to
break away from the Episcopal Church USA.

You know, your official bio from the Dioceses of New Hampshire includes these
lines: `Gene enjoys entertaining and cooking, gardening, music and running.
The father of two daughters, he lives with his partner, Mark Andrew, employed
by the Department of Health and Human Services.' What's it like for you to
read an official church bio of yourself in which you are totally uncloseted
and in which the church is totally unapologetic?

Rev. ROBINSON: How does that feel to me?

GROSS: Yeah.

Rev. ROBINSON: Perfectly, absolutely natural and normal. Every bio done on
any of the other nominees for bishop included their spouse's name and included
their children's names. Why would I not put that on my bio? I will tell you
that one of the most distressing things to me is a rumor that has been picked
up and published in countless newspapers and repeated on the radio, which
breaks my heart and which really troubles my family, which is that I abandoned
my wife and children to move in with my male lover, none of which is true. I
still talk to my former wife about once a week. She and I actually went back
to church to end our marriage. We took a priest with us to the judge's
chambers for our final divorce decree and then went back to his church where
we celebrated Communion together. We, in the context of that service, asked
each other's forgiveness for any ways that we might have hurt one another. We
pledged ourselves to the joint raising of our children, and we did by the way
have joint custody of our children. And then we gave our wedding rings back
to each other as the symbol of our wedding vows, which we no longer held each
other to. We cried a lot, and then we had Communion together. That's hardly
a picture of abandonment.

And my children, who have been a part of my life from the very beginning,
think that that is just simply a cruel joke for that to be said about them.
Our younger daughter is living with us this summer before she heads to New
York for a new career, and we have always been close to my children. And my
partner moved here, leaving a career, in order to be a part of their lives.
And by the way, I didn't even meet my partner until two months after my wife
was remarried. So it's just the kind of hurtful stuff that can get said about
you, and people don't realize that it hurts the people who are being talked
about in that way, and it hurts my children.

GROSS: I think it's interesting that you created a church divorce ceremony
for yourself and your wife. Did you both sit down and write what you wanted
to say to each other? I mean, I don't think there's a lot of precedent for
this.

Rev. ROBINSON: There's not a lot of precedent for it, although there are a
couple of denominations who have such a liturgy. And we did it very
informally. We were sort of making it up as we went along. But, you know, we
had taken those vows in church in front of God, and we didn't want to just
slink away from those vows. We had taken them seriously. We had made those
vows seriously. And we wanted to in some way, with God present, mark an
ending of this marriage and those vows which we no longer held each other to.
You know, it's easy for the church to be there when everyone's happy. It's
very much more difficult and very much more important for the church to be
there when things are not happy and easy. And, frankly, we found it to be one
of the most healing moments of our whole lives, and I believe it's one of the
reasons that our daughters were able to move on with an absolute minimum of
hurt and disruption resulting from our divorce.

GROSS: You have said that you told your wife before you were even married
that you were a little unsure about your sexual orientation, so I'm sure it
didn't come as a shock to her...

Rev. ROBINSON: Well...

GROSS: ...that those feelings were still there and they had become perhaps
stronger.

Rev. ROBINSON: Within a month of meeting my former wife who--at that time, of
course, we were not married--I told her that all of my significant
relationships had been with men, but that I had gotten into therapy trying to
cure myself, and that I felt in a place to be in a relationship with her. And
then, oh, about a month before our wedding, I became fearful that someday this
would come back to haunt us, so to speak, and we decided together that we
could weather that when it happened. And then two or three years before we
were separated and then divorced, we began to understand that this was just
something that we could not sit on forever. And so it was a very mutual
decision on our part after lots of therapy and after lots of talking, that the
way we could be true to the wedding vow we had made to honor one another in
the name of God was to actually let each other go.

GROSS: You know, there are some churches that make this distinction that, you
know, if your orientation is homosexual, that's fine. God loves you. The
problem is if you actually act on that orientation and engage in homosexual
behavior, if you do that, then you're engaging in sinful behavior and that is
not something that the church is gonna smile on. What's your reaction to that
kind of drawing of the line of, you know, what is acceptable and what's not?
The orientation's OK. It's acting on it that's the problem.

Rev. ROBINSON: I think it's wrong in two ways. One is that I don't believe
in a God who would give us the gift of sexuality and then tell an entire class
of people not to utilize and benefit from that gift. In the church, we
believe that celibacy is indeed a virtuous state, but it is something that
only a few are called to. Imposed celibacy is not anything that the church
should be for, because then it becomes not a gift from God, nor a gift to God,
but a kind of imposed prison, and I think does terrible injustice to the
psyche of the person involved.

The other thing I want to say about that is that I believe that the case of
Canon Jeffrey John's standing down in England shows the lie of those who would
say, `Oh well, you know, sexual orientation is fine. It's just the behavior
we care about.' Indeed, Jeffrey John claimed that he had been celibate for
the better part of a decade and promised to remain celibate as bishop and to
follow every teaching of the Church of England around matters sexual, and yet
that was still not enough for the evangelicals and conservatives who opposed
him. They wanted his head and they ultimately got it.

So for those who would say, `Well, we don't mind if you're gay as long as you
don't act on it,' it seems to me that the case with Canon John shows that
orientation does matter to these folks.

GROSS: Do you think that the child sexual abuse scandal within the Catholic
Church has had any impact on how people are reacting to you as bishop-elect?

Rev. ROBINSON: Yes. It has had some impact in the sense that especially
opponents of the full inclusion of gay and lesbian folk love to link
pedophilia with homosexuality. Of course, there is simply no credible source
anywhere which links the two. Indeed, pedophilia is far and away--the
majority of instances of that are with heterosexuals. But there are some
people who still make that connection in their minds, and it is a
misperception that we continue to fight all the time. And just recently I was
in one of our congregations and one of the people who threatened to leave the
church over my election came to hear me speak and I so appreciated his saying
to me quite openly and right to my face that he felt that I would be bringing
in all these people who would be abusing little boys, and he and I were able
to talk about what a misperception that was, and we ended that conversation
with him saying, `Well, I'm gonna stay, but I'm gonna keep my eye on you.'
And I said, `Well, you do that, and I'm going to prove those people wrong.'

GROSS: My guest is Reverend Canon Gene Robinson, the Episcopal bishop-elect
of New Hampshire. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Canon Gene Robinson. He's
bishop-elect of the Diocese of New Hampshire. He's scheduled to be voted on,
his confirmation, at an International Episcopal Convention that begins at the
end of the month. If he is confirmed, he will be the first openly gay
minister to be elected bishop. But his confirmation is being hotly contested
right now.

You weren't born into the Episcopal Church. You grew up in Lexington,
Kentucky, where your family went to the Disciples of Christ Church. Would you
describe the church that you grew up in?

Rev. ROBINSON: Certainly. It was a very small rural church. This was really
quite a wonderful part of my life, and I really feel that I owe my faith in
Jesus Christ to the wonderful upbringing that I received there. This was a
church of tobacco sharecroppers and farmers. This was a place where your
baptism was done in the local creek. There were revivals on hot summer
evenings. You'd cut tobacco all day and then come to church to hear preaching
and so on. It was really quite an amazing upbringing. And indeed, my parents
were quite poor. They were tobacco sharecroppers. I didn't live in a house
with running water until I was 10 years old. So we had outhouses and if you
wanted water you cranked it up out of a cistern, and if you wanted hot water
you put that on the stove. My mother literally did wash in a big cast iron
kettle over an open fire. It's hard to believe that in one lifetime I've gone
from that to where I am today.

But it was an incredibly faithful community and it was one in which my family
had helped found back in the 1850s, six or seven generations back, and it was
a place of great faith and great continuity. When I took my daughters there
for the first time, there were old women in the parish who were able to tell
my daughters about the first day I was brought to church as an infant. They
could even remember that I had a little birthmark on the back of my neck. You
just don't get that kind of continuity and love and care today like I was able
to get back in the early '50s.

GROSS: Did you feel bad at all about leaving that church?

Rev. ROBINSON: I did only in the sense that I did not want anyone there to
feel that I was in any way rejecting my upbringing or the deep faith that I
had learned there at the knees of all these wonderful saints, both men and
women. In that part of Kentucky, which has been sort of traditionally
anti-Catholic, the Episcopal Church is thought to be almost Roman Catholic,
and therefore a very alarming thing. So I think the people in my church were
much more concerned that I was becoming something close to a Roman Catholic
than they were about my leaving the Disciples. Since then, of course, they
have learned a lot more about the Episcopal Church, have rejoiced with me in
my ordination to the priesthood, and have been completely supportive.

GROSS: How were you introduced to the Episcopal Church and what did you like
about it?

Rev. ROBINSON: I was the valedictorian of my large high school class in
Lexington, Kentucky, and had lots of scholarship opportunities. The two that
I was most interested in, I accepted early admission into Princeton with a
half scholarship, and to the University of the South in Sewanee, Tennessee,
with a full scholarship. Those were the two that I was most interested in.
But because we did not have a lot of money, that was kind of a no-brainer, and
I went to the place that offered me a full scholarship, and it so happened
that the University of the South is owned by the 20 or so Southern dioceses of
the Episcopal Church. And at that time in the late '60s, we still had
required chapel. I loved to sing. I sang in the chapel choir. And
ultimately by the end of my four years at the university, had fallen in love
with the Episcopal Church and was confirmed Easter of my senior year in
college and then went to seminary in the fall.

GROSS: What did you like about the liturgy, the interpretations of the
church?

Rev. ROBINSON: The thing that I found in the Episcopal Church--well, I found
that the theology was very similar between the Disciples of Christ Church and
the Episcopal Church, and in both denominations we took Communion every
Sunday, which was very important to me. But the two things that I so loved
about the Episcopal Church, one was the liturgy itself, the beauty of the
language, the drama that was always there. You know, the sermon might be
great or it might be awful, but you always had the liturgy. You always had
the body and blood of Christ to nourish you for the week. That seemed to be
so important.

And second of all, it was the Episcopal Church's connection with the ancient
church. Apostolic succession means that today's bishops were laid hands on by
people who had hands laid on them who had hands laid on them all the way back
to the apostles and to the earliest church. That meant a lot to me, to feel
that I would be one in a long line of company of saints, people who have loved
the Lord all the way back to the earliest days of the church and even to
Christ himself.

Those were the two things that sort of added to what I'd already experienced
in the Disciples Church, and I found them very attractive. It's really very,
very humbling to me that I have now been elected to the office of bishop and
indeed will become one of the bearers of that apostolic succession.

GROSS: If your election to bishop of the Diocese of New Hampshire is
confirmed at the Episcopal convention that begins next week, you will be the
first openly gay minister to be elected bishop. Right now you're facing a lot
of opposition. You're at the center of a big controversy within your faith.
Are you finding this--is this making you nervous? Is this upsetting you? Or
are you kind of calm and willing to accept whatever the outcome is? I mean,
there's a lot at stake for you both, you know, just like professionally and
personally. There's a lot at stake in terms of the future of your religion.
And, you know, it can be very upsetting to be at the center of an
international controversy. So how are you handling it?

Rev. ROBINSON: Well, let me begin by saying something that may initially
sound flip, but I don't mean it that way. I have this very deep, abiding
knowledge, not belief, but knowledge that when all this is said and done, I'm
going to heaven. Whether I do this well or I do this poorly, I'm going to
heaven. Whether I am confirmed as a bishop of New Hampshire or whether I'm
not, I'm going to heaven. And in relation to that, all that's happened to me
right now is very small potatoes. Knowing that God loves me beyond my wildest
imagining gives me a kind of calm and peacefulness on the inside, which is
allowing me to weather this storm.

Some days I feel like I'm in a movie or I'm watching a movie and the guy
playing the lead looks an awful lot like me. It almost doesn't feel like me
in some ways. But the way I'm able to keep my balance is in my prayer life
and reminding myself that I worship a God who does love me beyond my wildest
imagining and in relation to that, all of this other stuff is really quite
small. It doesn't mean I don't take it seriously. It doesn't mean that I'm
not trying to do the very best job that I can. It's not that I'm not trying
to speak God's love to the world as best I can. It just means that my worth
is not dependant upon what happens, and that, thanks be to God, allows me to
stay calm in the midst of this incredible whirlwind.

GROSS: Thank you so much for talking with us.

Rev. ROBINSON: You're very welcome.

GROSS: Reverend Canon Gene Robinson is the bishop-elect of the New Hampshire
Diocese. If he's confirmed next week at the meeting of the Episcopal Church
USA, he will become the first openly gay man to be ordained an Episcopal
bishop.

Tonight NBC will broadcast an edited edition of the new hit makeover show that
premiered last week on the Bravo cable network, "Queer Eye For the Straight
Guy." Coming up, David Bianculli has a review.

This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Review: Bravo's new series "Queer Eye For the Straight Guy"
TERRY GROSS, host:

Last week, the Bravo cable network premiered a new reality TV makeover show in
which five gay men give advice to one straight man a crash course in how to
dress, groom, cook, clean, decorate and so on. It's called "Queer Eye For the
Straight Guy," and it got so much positive attention when it premiered that
NBC, which now owns Bravo, is taking the very unusual step tonight of
presenting an episode of "Queer Eye" as part of its must-see Thursday lineup.
TV critic David Bianculli both approves and disapproves.

DAVID BIANCULLI reporting:

When it comes to network series television and the portrayal of gays on TV,
there are certain obvious sea changes through the years. There's Billy
Crystal playing the first openly gay character on the ABC sitcom "Soap."
There's Ellen DeGeneres, whose character of Ellen in the ABC sitcom of the
same name came out of the closet about the same time DeGeneres did. And, of
course, there's "Will & Grace," with its top-rated gay characters of Eric
McCormack as Will and Sean Hayes as Jack.

But it wasn't so long ago--in fact, it was only 20 years--that NBC took
"Sidney Shorr," a Tony Randall tele-movie about a gay man, and turned it
into a series by erasing the character's homosexuality along the way. In
2003, NBC isn't afraid. It has gay pride. And in looking at the notice
"Queer Eye" has gotten, it's Bravo's all-time most popular program. NBC is
smart to pounce and repeat the series on network prime time.

This isn't unprecedented. The same way, ABC saw the good press and high
ratings for USA Network's "Monk," a mystery series starring Tony Shalhoub as a
detective with obsessive compulsive disorder, and repeated those episodes on
ABC. With "Queer Eye," NBC even has the perfect lead-in on Thursdays. It's
premiering the series right after "Will & Grace."

The decision to add "Queer Eye" to the NBC line-up was made at the last
minute, and the program may vanish just as quickly. Its ratings tonight will
determine if it shows up again. So will the amount of heat from conservative
network affiliates, at least two of whom, both from the South, already have
refused to show the program this evening. It's their loss.

"Queer Eye For the Straight Guy," as seen on Bravo, is terrific television.
The hour moves quickly and is built upon an instantly clear reality TV
premise: Some friend, girlfriend or family member of a clueless straight guy,
one whose apartment style and behavior never progress beyond college dorm
mode, gets him to agree beforehand to a fast-motion makeover by the stylish
advisers of "Queer Eye," who call themselves the Fab Five.

The show starts with the Fab Five descending on the poor guy in his apartment
with so much attitude, they're like the five reservoir dogs, only gay. They
greet every room and pile of mess with disbelief, and with good reason.

(Soundbite from "Queer Eye For the Straight Guy")

Unidentified Man #1: I mean, it looks actually like you're nuts and...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Unidentified Man #1: It really does.

Unidentified Man #2: After speaking with you...

Unidentified Man #1: No, it does. If you weren't here to represent yourself,
I would think that, OK, we pretty much--we've found him, and I'd call the
police.

Unidentified Man #3: We've got a lot of work to do because we have to make
you presentable for your gallery opening tonight.

Unidentified Man #4: Wow. There's actually no styling products.

Unidentified Man #5: So I went through your closet and what I did is I put
all the stuff that's not workable on the floor and then I hung the good stuff.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Unidentified Man #6: Of course, boys and their game things.

Unidentified Man #5: Do you remember The Gap in '85? If you don't, here's a
visual. Gap '86...

Unidentified Man #6: Yeah, yeah, I know. I know, I know.

Unidentified Man #5: ...Gap in '87. Oh, and '88, what a year.

Unidentified Man #6: What, you don't like them?

Unidentified Man #5: It's quite a year for oatmeal.

Unidentified Man #6: Yeah, I know.

BIANCULLI: But after assessing the damage, the tone shifts from brutal
sarcasm to kindly intervention. Some of the guys take the makeover subject on
a shopping spree for clothes and furniture and grooming products. Haircuts,
so far, have been a big part of the process. Meanwhile, other members of the
Fab Five are cleaning and organizing the apartment and shopping for food so
the guy can not only clean up his act, but cook something himself to host a
dinner with a girlfriend or open an art show.

At the end of the program, the Fab Five watch from a remote location while
cameras record how their straight guy acts in his new environment. They're
proud and happy. He's proud and happy. And the entire hour is about good
fun, better advice and a healthy attitude of tolerance.

What's not to like? Just this--and it really irritates me--on NBC, the hour
show is not an hour. When Bravo shows "Queer Eye," it's an hour long and the
time zips by. It's also important, because you get all the small details that
add up and get to watch the transformation and the acceptance as they happen.
But NBC has decided, in its infinite lack of wisdom, to take the premiere
episode from Bravo and cut it down to a sitcom-length 30 minutes, forcing it
into the time slot between "Will & Grace" and "ER."

What NBC should have done was begin "Will & Grace" 30 minutes earlier and run
"Queer Eye" at full length. But the way it is, NBC gets to trim out some of
the edgier dialogue, even though it's that very edginess that makes the show
so enjoyable. Oh well, even if tonight's NBC showcase is a one shot and
serves only to bring more people to the one-hour version on Bravo, I say,
bravo. "Queer Eye For the Straight Guy" is one of the brightest spots of TV
summer and one of the nicest reality shows ever made.

GROSS: David Bianculli is TV critic for the New York Daily News.

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.

We'll close with a recording by the cabaret singer Elizabeth Welch, who was
loved for the elegance of her phrasing. She died last week at the age of 99.
Although she was African-American, she wasn't well known in the States because
she spent most of her career in Europe. She became better known here in the
'80s when she returned to New York for a series of concerts and recordings.
This recording is from 1989.

(Soundbite of music)

Ms. ELIZABETH WELCH: (Singing) They asked me how I knew my true love was
true. I, of course, replied something here inside cannot be denied. They
said someday you'll find all who love are blind. When your heart's on fire,
you must realize smoke gets in your eyes. So I chat them and I gaily laugh to
think they could doubt my love. Yet today my love has flown away. I am
without my love. Now laughing friends deride tears I cannot hide. So I smile
and say when a lovely flame dies, smoke gets in your eyes. So I chat them
and I gaily laugh to think they could doubt my love. Yet today my love...
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.