Singer Lesley Gore

DATE August 26, 2002 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Songwriters Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil discuss their
careers as a songwriting team and a married couple for 40 years
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

It's become a FRESH AIR tradition to devote the last week of August to
interviews on one theme. This week it's pop and rock of the '60s, from the
Brill Building songwriters to the British invasion and the psychedelic bands.
We start with Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil. They've been a songwriting team,
as well as husband and wife, for about four decades. The hits they wrote
include "On Broadway," "Uptown," "He's Sure The Boy I Love," "Only In
America," "Kicks," "We've Got To Get Out of This Place" and this song.

(Soundbite of "You've Lost That Loving Feeling")

Mr. BILL MEDLEY: (Singing) You never close your eyes anymore when I kiss your
lips. And there's no tenderness like before in your fingertips. You're
trying hard not to show it, but, baby, baby, I know it. You've lost that
loving feeling, whoa, that loving feeling...

GROSS: When Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil teamed up in the early '60s, they
were both staff writers for a music publishing company owned by Don Kirshner.
They worked in a Manhattan office building near the Brill Building when the
area was the new Tin Pan Alley, where Mann and Weil and songwriters like
Carole King, Gerry Goffin, Ellie Greenwich and Neil Sedaka churned out
material for the latest singers and pop groups. Unlike many songwriters of
the '60s, Mann and Weil survived the British invasion. Their most recent
songs include "Here You Come Again" and "Somewhere Out There." Those are two
of the songs Barry Mann sings on his recent CD, "Soul & Inspiration." At
the end of 1999, Mann and Weil's song "You've Lost That Loving Feeing" was
the most performed song of the century in the BMI Publishing catalog.

(Soundbite of "You've Lost That Loving Feeling")

Mr. MEDLEY: (Singing) Baby, baby, I'll get down on my knees for you.

Mr. BOBBY HATFIELD: (Singing) If you will only love me like you used to do.
Yeah.

Mr. MEDLEY and Mr. HATFIELD: (Singing) We had a love, a love, a love you
don't find every day. So don't, don't, don't, don't let it slip away.

Mr. MEDLEY: (Singing) Baby.

Mr. HATFIELD: (Singing) Baby.

Mr. MEDLEY: (Singing) Baby.

Mr. HATFIELD: (Singing) Baby.

Mr. MEDLEY: (Singing) I beg you please.

Mr. HATFIELD: (Singing) Please.

Mr. MEDLEY: (Singing) Please.

Mr. HATFIELD: (Singing) Please.

Mr. MEDLEY: (Singing) I need your love.

Mr. HATFIELD: (Singing) I need your love.

Mr. MEDLEY: (Singing) I need your love.

Mr. HATFIELD: (Singing) I need your love.

Mr. MEDLEY: (Singing) So bring it on back.

Mr. HATFIELD: (Singing) Bring it on back.

GROSS: Barry Mann, Cynthia Weil, welcome to FRESH AIR.

Mr. BARRY MANN (Songwriter): Well, thank you.

Ms. CYNTHIA WEIL (Songwriter): Thank you.

GROSS: Barry Mann, let me ask you first, what's happening in the melody of
that song? Is there anything that you worked on that is particularly
interesting to describe?

Mr. MANN: Well, I don't know if it would be interesting now, but when we
wrote the song, it was very different for its time. That middle part of the
song, you know, the kind of soulful part, had never been done before. And
also at the time, the record ran long, which nowadays, it's really short. It
ran over three minutes. And so Phil Spector, who produced the record, even
though--I think he put 2:58 on it, even though I think it ran around 3:10 or
so. So that's about the only difference I can talk about now.

GROSS: Oh, so he lied about the length so DJs would play it.

Mr. MANN: Yes. Yeah.

GROSS: Uh-huh. Yes. Wen you say that part of the melody hadn't ever been
done before, which part are you referring to? Maybe you could hum it for us.

Mr. MANN: You know, where they go, boom, mm, dum, `Baby, baby, I get down on
my knees for you.' For that period, I think it was kind of very different to
come out with something like that in a ballad.

GROSS: Cynthia Weil, what was the part of the lyric that came to you first
that you built everything else around?

Ms. WEIL: You know, Barry started playing that opening melody, and I'm not
sure which one of us--as a matter of fact, I think it was Barry who came up
with the opening line, `You never close your eyes anymore when I kiss your
lips.' And it just seemed to flow. And when we hit the chorus, one of us--I
think it was me--sang out, `You've lost that loving feeling.' And we weren't
even thinking of using it as the real title. I mean, in those days, we used
to write a song and kind of just fill it up with any words just so we'd
remember it. And we used to call that a dummy title or a dummy lyric, and
that was our dummy lyric. And then we wrote a verse and a chorus, and we
called Phil, and we played it for him, and he said, `That's not the dummy
lyric. That's the lyric.'

Mr. MANN: Yeah, that's the title, definitely.

Ms. WEIL: Yeah.

GROSS: Now Phil Spector has a co-writing credit on "You've Lost That Loving
Feeling." What did he add?

Mr. MANN: Well, it was his suggestion to come up with that middle part, which
was a terrific suggestion. And, you know, after we did play the verses and
the chorus, he then joined in and continued to...

Ms. WEIL: We wrote the rest of the song together.

Mr. MANN: ...the rest of the song together. And also, he produced an
incredible record...

Ms. WEIL: Yeah. Absolutely.

Mr. MANN: ...for its time.

GROSS: So were you writing the song on assignment? Were you writing it for
The Righteous Brothers?

Mr. MANN: Yes.

Ms. WEIL: Yeah. We were living in New York at the time, and we had worked a
little bit with Phil, and he wanted us to come out and work with him in LA,
and he played us a record of these two singers out of Orange County, and they
had two local hits. One was called "My Babe" and the other was "Little Latin
Lupe Lu." And he said, `You know, let's think of a way to go with them that's
interesting. I want to record them for my label.' And we were very inspired
by The Four Tops, and "Baby I Need Your Loving" was our favorite song of the
time, because it had this really raw passion that we wanted to capture for The
Righteous Brothers. And when we wrote the song, they weren't that crazy about
it.

GROSS: Really?

Mr. MANN: Well, when I sang it--I loved The Everly Brothers at the time and I
sounded like The Everly Brothers. So when I sang it to Bill and Bobby, they
said, `You know, this is really good for The Everly Brothers.' And another
thing that happened is that at the time, you know, the records that they had
been putting out, they both sang together, and this one--Bill Medley had the
lead. So Bobby said, `Well, what am I going to do while he sings?' And I
think Phil Spector said, `Well, you'll be walking to the bank.' So that...

Ms. WEIL: Phil was quite confident in his abilities.

GROSS: Give us a sense of the process. When you became a songwriting team,
were you assigned which singers you would be writing for back when you were
working for Don Kirshner?

Mr. MANN: It went both ways. We could just sit and write a song or there
were assignments. The Drifters would be up, say, as a group, and everybody at
Alden Music would want to write for The Drifters. But at the same time, there
were songs we just sat down to write. Cynthia and I wrote the original--there
was an original version of "On Broadway," and I always had the concept to try
to write a Gershwinesque kind of contemporary song, and that's basically how
"On Broadway" was written or the reason for it. Again, there was no specific
artist in mind. So it happened all different ways.

GROSS: OK. Let's stick with "On Broadway" for a minute.

Mr. MANN: Sure.

GROSS: This was a big hit for The Drifters. You had nobody particular in
mind when you wrote it. Did The Drifters have the first recording of it?

Mr. MANN: Yes. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. They didn't.

Ms. WEIL: They had the first recording that was released.

Mr. MANN: Released, yeah.

Ms. WEIL: But actually, Carole and Gerry were recording a group, right?

GROSS: This is Carole King and Gerry Goffin.

Ms. WEIL: Yeah.

Mr. MANN: Yeah, but also, Phil Spector cut our original version of "On
Broadway" with, I think, The Crystals.

Ms. WEIL: Yeah.

Mr. MANN: He never completed it. As a matter of fact, I have it at home. I
should have brought it here. It would have been very interesting to hear
(unintelligible).

GROSS: Now how did that version compare to the one The Drifters did?

Mr. MANN: Melodically, it was very, very close. The opening line, in fact,
instead of, `They say the neon lights are bright on Broadway,' ours is, `They
say the neon lights are bright on Broadway.' Bright--it's very Gershwiny, you
know, kind of more of a bluesy note. And so it was changed. If I remember,
Mike Stoller suggested that we change it. And also, we didn't modulate three
times, and that was a very good suggestion. And then lyrically, there was a
different lyrical perspective. You can talk about it, Cynthia, if you want.

Ms. WEIL: Well, I think we had written it for a girl group, so it was about
a girl coming to New York and dreaming of Broadway and stardom. And it was
much more kind of escape from a small town and I'm going to make it. And when
we met with Jerry and Mike and played this for them, they said, `You know,
we're doing The Drifters so it would need a whole other perspective, and you
can go home and do it yourself or you can write it with us.' And these guys
were our idols, and we thought they were great and it would be a fantastic
opportunity to work with them, so we ended up reworking the song together.

Mr. MANN: Which was...

Ms. WEIL: And it was really--it was like going to songwriting school,
working with Jerry Leiber for me as a lyricist.

Mr. MANN: They have two very different approaches lyrically. Cynthia is much
more organized. She would want to write the first verse, make sure it's
completed, then go to the chorus and...

Ms. WEIL: Yeah, I'd stay on that second line. If I couldn't get it, I'd be
there for months, you know. I wouldn't move.

Mr. MANN: And she...

Ms. WEIL: And Jerry just kind of jumped around and showed me that you can,
you know, go different places and move things around. You don't have to be so
rigid.

Mr. MANN: It was a very exciting experience.

GROSS: Why don't we hear The Drifters' recording of "On Broadway," the song
written by Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil?

Ms. WEIL and Mr. MANN: (In unison) And Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller.

Ms. WEIL: Right.

(Soundbite of music)

THE DRIFTERS: (Singing) They say the neon lights are bright on Broadway. On
Broadway. They say there's always magic in the air. On Broadway. But when
you're walking down that street and you ain't had enough to eat, the glitter
rubs right off and you're nowhere. On Broadway. They say the girls are
something else on Broadway. On Broadway. But looking at them just gives me
the blues. On Broadway. 'Cause how you going to make some time when all you
got is one thin dime? And one thin dime won't even shine your shoes. On
Broadway. They say that I won't last too long on Broadway. On Broadway.

GROSS: Now, Barry Mann, before we heard this, you mentioned that I think it
was Leiber and Stoller suggested adding the modulations. We just heard one of
those key changes. What does that kind of key change do to the emotional
quality of a song?

Mr. MANN: Well, especially in that song, it really works, because that song
is basically one melody. It's a verse that's repeated three times. So it
would really get very boring to just do the same melody three times in the
same key. So that really uplifted the song.

GROSS: My guests are songwriters Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil. We'll talk
more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

THE RONETTES: (Singing) Like walking in the rain and wishing on the stars up
above and being so in love. When he's near me, I'm tempted...

GROSS: My guests are Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil. They've been married and
a songwriting team since the early '60s.

One of the types of groups that you worked for was the girl groups. You wrote
a few girl group hits, including a couple for The Crystals, "Uptown" and "He's
Sure The Boy I Love." Were there any considerations lyrically writing for the
girl groups? Was it a certain type of lyrics, a certain type of song?

Ms. WEIL: You know, there were. Jeff Barry and Ellie Greenwich really were
the quintessenal girl group writers. They were really into lots of sounds,
and I was never really good at that. I somehow felt that my girls group
lyrics, except for "Walking in the Rain,"(ph) which was really adolescent,
were kind of--I was trying to be adolescent and I didn't know how very well,
and they were just a little sharper. I mean, "Uptown" certainly is not a
girls group song.

Mr. MANN: We just write a song.

Ms. WEIL: It's sung by a girls group, but that's the only thing. It was one
of the first sociological songs, and I just don't think that I was really a
good girls group songwriter.

Mr. MANN: I mean, if I could just kind of interject, when I first started
writing with Cynthia, first, she showed me some of her lyrics, and I really
liked them a lot, and what I saw in them was this--they had a show quality to
them. There was a sophistication. And I really thought that that
sophistication, combined with rock 'n' roll, would be very fresh. And I
think Cynthia always has kept that kind of sophistication, unless you really
had to go sideways, which was like "Walking in the Rain." And it was a great
combination.

GROSS: Well, "Uptown" kind of tells a story. What's the story it tells?

Ms. WEIL: Well, it really tells the story of a man who, because of his race,
is regarded one way in the workplace and then another way with his friends and
family and the woman who loves him. That song had a story to it also in that
when we had written it and Phil had recorded it, I think there were a couple
of notes that Phil had changed because the singer couldn't hit them. And we
went nuts. You know, we were so young and insane that those things really
mattered, and one note could drive both of us over the edge. And we begged
him to come in and record it again with another singer that we had found who
happened to be Carole King and Gerry Goffin's baby-sitter named Eva.

GROSS: Oh, Little Eva...

Ms. WEIL: And Little...

Mr. MANN: That's right.

GROSS: ...who did "The Loco-Motion."

Ms. WEIL: Exactly.

Mr. MANN: That's right.

Ms. WEIL: So before Little Eva did "The Loco-Motion," we dragged her into a
studio with Phil, and it was the first time she had ever been on mike, and
Phil was driving her crazy, and she didn't realize that when she was on the
mike, even if we weren't recording, you could hear what she was saying in the
control booth. And so she was ranting about hating Phil during the whole
thing. And he was enjoying it so much, and when she finished, we realized
that Phil had made the better record anyway and he really just was humoring us
to do this. It was very sweet of him to do it.

Mr. MANN: Humoring us and torturing her.

Ms. WEIL: Yes. Exactly. But then Eva, of course, went on to become Little
Eva.

GROSS: Well, let's hear The Crystals' hit version of "Uptown."

(Soundbite of music)

THE CRYSTALS: (Singing) He gets up each morning and he goes downtown, where
everyone's his boy and he's lost in an angry land. He's a little man. But
then he comes uptown each evening to my tenement, uptown where folks don't
have to pay much rent. And when he's there with me, he can see that he's
everything. Then he's tall, he don't crawl. He's a king. Downtown, he's
just one of a million guys. He don't get no breaks and he takes all they got
to give, 'cause he's got to live. But then he comes uptown where he can hold
his head up high; uptown, he knows that I'll be standing by; and when I take
his hand, there's no man who could put him down. The world is sweet, it's at
his feet when he's uptown. Whoa.

GROSS: "Uptown" written by my guests Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil. Was it
Phil Spector who came up with that real Latin-sounding instrumentation, the
castanets and...

Mr. MANN: Yes.

Ms. WEIL: Yes. Uh-huh. That was Phil.

GROSS: Did you have that in mind at all? Were you surprised when you heard
it?

Mr. MANN: No. We had nothing in mind, really, it just...

Ms. WEIL: You know, this is one of the few songs that we did not have the
demo on--a demonstration record in which you kind of lay out the song for the
producer with musical instruments and everything. We had played the song for
a man named Artie Ripp(ph) who was working at Alden Music as kind of a
song-plugger, and he loved it so much that he learned how to play it on the
piano himself, and he played and sang it for Phil Spector, who then just took
it and recorded it. The next thing we knew, we had a record.

Mr. MANN: Yeah. I think I did a piano-voice demo for him just to have
something to guide him.

Ms. WEIL: But there was no real concept given to Phil. This was all Phil.

GROSS: Now let me ask you about another song that you wrote, "Only In
America," and Jay & The Americans had the hit of this. I understand the
original version was actually written for The Drifters.

Mr. MANN: It was, and it was recorded by The Drifters. But then when they
brought these around to disc jockeys--the black disc jockeys, they wouldn't
play it because they felt that the lyric was a lie. You know, very
interesting, this little quick concept that we almost did, it wasn't really
serious, but we almost wrote it the opposite way, and I would have loved to
have done it, and that period was like, instead of, `Only in America, where
they preach the Golden Rule, do they start to march where my kids try to go to
school. Only in America, land of opportunity, do they save a seat in the back
of the bus just for me,' which I thought was really--it was sort of harsh,
but...

Ms. WEIL: That was the way we wanted to go, but this...

GROSS: So you wanted to go like a civil rights protest song.

Ms. WEIL: Exactly. Exactly.

Mr. MANN: Absolutely.

Ms. WEIL: And Jerry Leiber, who is the voice of reason, said...

Mr. MANN: Yes.

Ms. WEIL: ...`You'll never get this played. Don't waste your time. We have
to think positively and we have to write it from another viewpoint.'

Mr. MANN: Yeah. So basically, we wrote it from a really white viewpoint,
which was, you know, valid for, you know, someone who was white. And they
ended ...(unintelligible) by like taking that Drifters track and putting Jay
& The Americans off the track.

GROSS: So the lyric you ended up with is very kind of positive...

Mr. MANN: Yes.

GROSS: ...`Only in America, land of opportunity, can a rich girl like you
fall for a poor boy like me.'

Mr. MANN: Yeah. Yes. Yes.

GROSS: So you say that the Jay & The Americans' version had The Drifters
track...

Mr. MANN: Track.

Ms. WEIL: Well, Leiber and Stoller produced both...

Mr. MANN: Both of them.

Ms. WEIL: ...The Drifters and Jay & The Americans, so after they took The
Drifters' voices off, they put Jay & The Americans on.

GROSS: I see. How did The Drifters feel when the song was taken away from
them because it was felt that a black group really couldn't sing a song about
how great America was and be believable?

Mr. MANN: I don't...

Ms. WEIL: I don't know. We never...

Mr. MANN: No.

Ms. WEIL: ...discussed it with them, but I'm sure that they felt a sense of
hypocrisy singing the song at the time.

GROSS: Songwriters Cynthia Weil and Barry Mann recorded in 2000. Here's the
Jay & The Americans version of "Only in America." I'm Terry Gross, and this
is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

JAY & THE AMERICANS: (Singing) Only in America can a guy from anywhere go to
sleep a pauper and wake up a millionaire. Only in America can a kid without a
cent get a break and maybe grow up to be president. Only in America, land of
opportunity, yeah, would a classy girl like you fall for a poor boy like me.
Only in America can a kid who's washing cars take a giant step and reach right
up and touch the stars. Only in America, could a dream like this come true,
could a guy like me start with nothing and end up with you.

(Soundbite of music)

Ms. LESLEY GORE: (Singing) 'Cause now it's Judy's turn to cry, Judy's turn to
cry, Judy's turn to cry, 'cause Johnny's come back...

GROSS: In 1963, she was 16, her hair was in a flip and her first record rose
to number one on the charts. Coming up we talk with Lesley Gore about her
hits from the '60s, "It's My Party," "Judy's Turn To Cry" and "You Don't Own
Me." And we hear from Bobby Vee who had the '60s hits "Devil Or Angel," "Take
Good Care of My Baby" and "Run to Him."

(Soundbite of music)

Ms. GORE: (Singing) Now that was a foolish thing. 'Cause now it's Judy's
turn to cry, Judy's turn to cry, Judy's turn to cry, 'cause Johnny's come
back...

Chorus: (Singing) Johnny's come back, come back.

Ms. GORE: (Singing) ...to me. Well, it hurt me so to see them dance
together.

Chorus: (Singing) Together.

Ms. GORE: (Singing) I felt like making a scene. Then my tears just fell like
raindrops 'cause Judy's smile was so mean. But now it's Judy's turn to cry,
Judy's turn to cry, Judy's turn to cry 'cause Johnny's come back...

Chorus: (Singing) Johnny's come back, come back.

Ms. GORE: (Singing) ...to me.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Filler: By policy of WHYY, this information is restricted and has
been omitted from this transcript

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Bobby Vee discusses his career as a recording artist
TERRY GROSS, host:

Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and The Big Bopper died in a plane crash 43 years
ago. They were on tour headed for their next concert in Moorhead, Minnesota.
Several of the performers on the same tour were traveling by bus. Rather than
cancel the Moorhead concert, they did the show. Local bands were asked to
take the place of the performers who died in the crash. That's how
15-year-old Bobby Vee got his start. Bobby Vee went on to become one of the
big hit makers of the '60s, with such songs as "Devil Or Angel," "Take Good
Care Of My Baby," "The Night Has A Thousand Eyes," "Rubber Ball," "Run to Him"
and "Come Back When You Grow Up." I spoke with him in 1999 on the 40th
anniversary of the plane crash. He had just released two CDs; one paying
tribute to Buddy Holly, the other collecting his hits. This record reached
number one in 1961. The song was written by Carole King and Gerry Goffin.

(Soundbite of "Take Good Care Of My Baby")

Mr. BOBBY VEE: (Singing) My tears are falling 'cause you've taken her away.
And though it really hurts me so, there's something that I've got to say.
Take good care of my baby. Please don't ever make her blue. Just tell her
that you love her, make sure you're thinking of her in everything you say and
do. Oh, take good care of my baby. Now don't you...

GROSS: Bobby Vee, welcome to FRESH AIR.

Mr. VEE: Thanks so much, Terry. Great to be here.

GROSS: You were 15 when you were asked to fill in for Buddy Holly right after
Buddy Holly's plane crash. And I'm wondering: Why you? Why did they choose
you?

Mr. VEE: You know, it's such an odd story. It was the luck of the draw. I
came home from school for lunch that day and had heard on the radio that he
had died in a plane crash. And--I was a sophomore in high school--went back
to school and, of course, everybody was in shock. That was the topic of the
afternoon. And when I got out of school, I turned on the radio and they were
asking for local talent to help fill in the evening. They just had made a
decision to go on with the show, which consisted at that point--it was Dion
and The Belmonts and the new Crickets, not the original Crickets, which also
was a surprise to me, and a young singer named Frankie Sardo.

And they wanted to go on with the show, and they were asking for local talent.
We called up the radio station, they said, `Come on down.' And that was it.
They didn't ask us anything. They didn't ask us, you know, what we played or
anything. And we did, went down to the Moorhead Armory that night at, you
know, 6:30 and waited. They said, `Just wait in the wings,' and we did. It
was--I mean, the audience was--it was like a wake. And there were people, you
know, not living in the '90s here, you go back to that time period and people
from the outlying areas that came into the show and hadn't heard about the
tragedy and so they maybe got in line. And so there were a lot of emotions
floating around. And we ended up being--there was a little tribute that was
done to the three stars, and then they kicked into the show and we ended up
opening the show.

GROSS: What about your emotions? How was your mix of being frightened and
upset by the plane crash and the death mixed with the exhilaration of knowing
this was your big moment, you were going to be performing?

Mr. VEE: Yeah, it was both of those things. I was absolutely in shock. And
if I would have had time to think about it and the implications of it, I don't
think I would have done it because we really weren't prepared to go out and
stand in front of 1,200 people and perform. But there really wasn't any time.
We offered our services and they said, `Come on down.' And there was a spirit
of, `Let's get together and try to get through this thing.' But when Charlie
turned around and said, `What's the name of the band?' and I was the only one
that had given it any thought and I said, `The Shadows.' And he said, `Ladies
and gentlemen, here they are, The Shadows.' And all of a sudden, it was,
like, you know, `Let's do it. It's time to do it,' and we did.

GROSS: It sounds like a rock 'n' roll movie.

Mr. VEE: Yeah, it was a strange...

GROSS: True?

Mr. VEE: Yeah. All of a sudden, I was, like, launched into hyperspace, you
know.

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. VEE: All of a sudden, the nobleness of, you know, helping to get through
this thing--that ceased, and it was, like, time for me to perform, and I
didn't know if I could.

GROSS: Now were you already influenced as a singer by Buddy Holly? Do you
think you were more or less influenced by him after you played at this
concert?

Mr. VEE: I don't think I knew how much I was influenced by him. I loved his
music. And our voice had a similar timbre, and his music was easy for any
rock 'n' roll band in the world to reproduce. I mean, it was guitars and
drums. And so I was influenced in that respect. And I didn't think of it as
a start of my career. I mean, I didn't have a career.

GROSS: You were 15.

Mr. VEE: I was 15. I was in school and didn't think anything other than what
it was. You know, we ended up filling in that night and did a pretty good
job. A guy came up after the show and said, `Great job, boys.' He said, `If
you're looking for a manager or an agent'--he was a local booking agent--`give
me a call.' We thought, `Hmm, interesting. We could actually do this some
more.' And we gave him a call and a couple of weeks later, we had our first
job. And it was a disaster, but, you know, you learn from all those things.
And that was the stepping stone into Bobby Vee and The Shadows. And
eventually, "Suzie Baby," my first record which came out in 1959 in June. And
I always thought of that as the start of my career.

GROSS: Let's play your first record, "Suzie Baby." You were, I think, 17
when this came out?

Mr. VEE: Just 16.

GROSS: Sixteen.

Mr. VEE: I was just--yeah, barely 16.

GROSS: Well, let's hear "Suzie Baby." This is my guest Bobby Vee's first
recording.

(Soundbite of "Suzie Baby"; music)

Mr. VEE: (Singing) Suzie baby, where are you? Have you left me for someone
new? Is your love life shining bright? Will you love me or leave me tonight?
Suzie baby, don't you know that I love you and want you so? Come back, baby.
Come back home. Say you love me and never again roam.

(Soundbite of music)

Mr. VEE: (Singing) Suzie baby...

GROSS: I think I can definitely hear a Buddy Holly influence in your singing
style there, including the kind of Buddy Holly hiccup.

Mr. VEE: The little hiccup, right.

GROSS: Yeah. So did you think of yourself as being very influenced by Buddy
Holly when you were recording this or when you were writing the song? And I'm
wondering even if you were nudged in that direction a little bit by your
producer.

Mr. VEE: We actually didn't have a producer.

GROSS: Oh.

Mr. VEE: We weren't lucky enough to have a producer. We went to Minneapolis
and spent $500, recorded it at 9:00 in the morning. I've never recorded a
song since at 9:00 in the morning. We had a three-hour session from 9 to
noon, and it was a package deal. It was Soma Records, which up that point it
was pretty much a polka label. We used to kid that we were the only act on
the label that didn't wear lederhosen.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. VEE: But the record came out, and it was just interesting the way that it
went up the charts. It just took off the summer of 1959 and...

GROSS: It was a regional hit.

Mr. VEE: It was a regional hit in the Tri-State area in the upper Midwest.
It went to number one everywhere, and by the time it hit Minneapolis and
reached number one there, we were getting calls from record companies all over
the world.

GROSS: By the way, was that your brother playing lead guitar?

Mr. VEE: Yes, that's my brother, Bill. And it just--I love hearing him play.
He passed a way a couple of years ago, but...

GROSS: I'm sorry to hear that.

Mr. VEE: Yeah, thanks. But we were--he was a great inspiration for me. He
turned me on to so much great music.

GROSS: I have another question about your very early career. Before Bob
Dylan became Bob Dylan, you hired him as the pianist in your band. He wasn't
using the name Dylan yet, but he also wasn't using his birth name, Robert
Zimmerman. What name was he using, and do you know why he chose it?

Mr. VEE: It's a funny story. My brother, Bill, was in Sam's Record Land in
Fargo, where we used to go down and buy all of those hot records, and this
little guy approached him. We were looking for a piano player, and he knew
that. He introduced himself to Bill as Elston Gunnn, with three N's,
G-U-N-N-N, and that got Bill's attention. And he said, `I hear you're looking
for a keyboard player.' He said, `I just got off the road with Conway
Twitty,' and that got Bill's attention, because Twitty had toured the Midwest
a lot and, you know, he had "It's Only Make Believe" and he was, you know, one
of the earlier rockers.

And Bill went over to the radio station with him and auditioned him--they had
a piano in there--and he came back home and he said, `I think we found a piano
player.' He said, `They guy plays pretty good in the key of C.' And we found
out the first night that he only played in the key of C. He could play three
chords.

So it was funny, we picked him up for the job and we bought him a shirt to
match ours, and he didn't have a piano. He said, `Where's your piano?' He
said, `I don't have one.' So we thought, `Well, we've got a piano player
without a piano.' And it just so happened that it was a church basement or
something that we were playing in, there was an old piano down there, a
rickety old, out-of-tune thing, and he played that. And then if we were
playing a song in any other key, he would come up and sing background parts
and he would do sort of hand claps and so--he was a wiry, funny guy, you know.

GROSS: Did you have to get rid of him because he only played in C?

Mr. VEE: We couldn't afford to buy a piano, and he didn't have any money. He
was a busboy in a restaurant, a little place called the Red Apple Cafe in
Fargo. And none of us had any money, and we knew that it was not going to
work out. And so the story goes that I fired him, and I certainly didn't do
that. But it just was an unmanageable situation. He left and went down to
Minneapolis, the University of Minnesota and went to school. And then two
years later, I was walking through Greenwich Village and I saw a familiar face
in a record store window, and I went over and there was an album by Bob Dylan,
and I thought, `Boy, it looks a lot like Elston Gunnn.'

(Soundbite of laughing)

GROSS: My guest is Bobby Vee. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH
AIR.

(Soundbite of "Soulful Strut")

GROSS: Let's get back to our interview with Bobby Vee. In the '60s, he had
such hits as "Devil Or Angel," "Rubber Ball," "Take Good Care of My Baby" and
"Run to Him." I spoke to him in 1999 after the release of two CDs; one paying
tribute to Buddy Holly, the other a collection of his hits.

I want to play a session that you did with Burt Bacharach. This is a Burt
Bacharach-Hal David song...

Mr. VEE: OK.

GROSS: ...called "Be True to Yourself." And, you know, Burt Bacharach is so
highly regarded now for not only his songwriting, but for the arrangements
that he did for his songs and the way that they were produced. How much did
Bacharach actually handle this session?

Mr. VEE: Burt arranged the session, and he basically directed the session. I
mean, he literally directed the session. He arranged and directed the
orchestra. And it was a departure for us, because Ernie Freeman had done
everything up to that point. I remember it being a very good session. I did
two of his songs, "Be True to Yourself" and another song that was called
"That's the Way I'll Come to You," which was never issued. It's out on this
new collection, "The Essential Bobby Vee" package. But it was wonderful
working with him. And I am a big fan of his music, and Hal David, the writer,
the lyricist, has been one of my favorites.

GROSS: Well, let's hear "Be True to Yourself." This is my guest, Bobby Vee.

(Soundbite of "Be True to Yourself"; music)

Mr. VEE: (Singing) Be true to yourself and you'll always be true to me. Be
true to yourself and you'll be the girl that I want you to be. Remember that
if some other guy catches your eye, just follow your heart. I know your heart
won't lead you wrong. Our love is much too strong. I'm not afraid of losing
you. I have faith in you. Can't you see? Darling, be true to yourself and
you'll always be true to me.

(Soundbite of music)

Backup Singers: La, la, la, la, la. La, la, la-la-la, la, la, la-la-la, la,
la, la-la-la la, la-la-la la, la. La-la-la-la.

Mr. VEE: (Singing) Remember that if some other catches your eye, just follow
your heart. I know your heart won't lead you wrong. Our love is much too
strong. I'm not afraid...

GROSS: That's Bobby Vee, and that's one of the songs included on "The
Essential Bobby Vee," his new collection of greatest hits and other records,
including some unreleased tracks.

Mr. VEE: Yeah. Thanks for playing that.

GROSS: This is good, isn't it?

Mr. VEE: I never hear that song, and it's one of my favorite songs. I think
it's just a great, great lyric.

GROSS: And you didn't sound like you straining. You said the high notes were
kind of out of reach for you. Did Bacharach want that? You know, some people
really like hearing singers reach for their lowest or their highest notes,
'cause the strain of that sometimes sounds like an emotional strain, like an
emotional tug...

Mr. VEE: That's right.

GROSS: ...in interpreting the lyric.

Mr. VEE: Every record producer I've ever worked with wanted me to sing at the
very top end of my range. And there's a lot more going--I mean, I suppose the
contrast to that is I could have done a tribute to Johnny Cash. But I do have
a low voice; I always have had. Even when I listened to "Suzie Baby," you
know, my first record...

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. VEE: ...it's set in a low key for me.

GROSS: So did Bacharach want you to reach all the way up?

Mr. VEE: Yes, he did. He wanted me to get to the very--get on my tiptoes and
do that, right. And I did.

GROSS: You were popular in the Dick Clark era. What was it like to go on his
show? Did you lip-synch? Did you play live ever?

Mr. VEE: No, those, they were all lip sync. I don't know that anyone ever
sang live on there.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. VEE: It's possible, but not that I recall.

GROSS: But were you taught to lip-synch, or did you just have to pick it up?

Mr. VEE: It's a little bit tricky because after you record a song and then
go out and start performing it live, it will vary a little bit. And so I
would always have to listen to the records and kind of, you know, brush up on
them to not embarrass myself. I mean, it was embarrassing enough going out
and doing a lip sync.

I actually did a live show; it was a show out in Seattle back in that time
period, and I didn't realize it was a live show. I thought it was just a
television show and I was going to go on and lip-synch. And it was a live
show. There was an audience there. And the record started skipping. And
there were some tense moments there. It seems like...

GROSS: What did you do?

Mr. VEE: ...it skipped for a year, you know. And I just--I did what I'm
doing right now as I'm talking to you; I put my hands up in the air. You
know, you can't proceed from there. And then I heard all of a sudden--(makes
noise of needle scratching on record)--and it came back on again and finished
the song. And it was sort of an out-of-body experience for me.

GROSS: Bobby Vee, it's really been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Mr. VEE: Oh, thanks, Terry. It was just wonderful to spend some time with
you and, yeah, just watch my--listen to my life flash before my ears.

GROSS: Bobby Vee, recorded in 1999. His next performance is at the DuQuoin
State Fair in DuQuoin, Illinois, September 1st.

Our series on pop and rock hit makers of the '60s continues through the week.

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.

(Soundbite of "Run to Him"; music)

Mr. VEE: (Singing) If you found another guy who satisfies you more than I do,
run to him. I'll step aside. If you think his lips can kiss you better than
my lips can kiss you, run to him. Forget my pride. If someone else's arms
can hold you better than my arms can hold you, go to him...
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.