A sex worker marries the son of a Russian oligarch in the comically chaotic 'Anora'

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. If you've been watching the Apple TV+ series "Bad Monkey," you've heard some great covers of Tom Petty songs, like this one.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I WON'T BACK DOWN")

SHARON VAN ETTEN: (Singing) Well, I won't back down. No, I won't back down. You can stand me up at the gates of hell, but I won't back down. No, I'll stand my ground, won't be turned around. And I'll keep this world from dragging me down. Going to stand my ground. And I won't back down. Hey, baby. There ain't no easy way out. Hey.

MOSLEY: That's Sharon Van Etten. Tom Petty led the band the Heartbreakers, whose other hits include "American Girl," "Listen To Her Heart," "Running Down A Dream" and "Breakdown." The band's classic 1982 album, "Long After Dark," was recently reissued. Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers were inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame the first year they were eligible, in 2002. As a member of the band the Traveling Wilburys, from '88 to '90, Petty performed with several artists he admired, like Bob Dylan, George Harrison and Roy Orbison. Tom Petty died in 2017 at the age of 66. Let's listen to a portion of the interview Terry recorded with him in 2006, when he had released a solo album of songs called "Highway Companion." At the time, he was hosting his own show on the XM Satellite Radio network, and Terry asked him what radio meant to him as a kid.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TOM PETTY: Everything. You know, I still see it as this really magical thing, and it was wonderful. I didn't have the money to have a vast record collection. So I learned everything, really, from the radio. And in the - you know, in the mid-'60s, AM radio - pop radio - was just this incredible thing that played all kinds of music. You know, just - you could hear Frank Sinatra right into the Yardbirds, you know, to the Beatles into Dean Martin. It was just - it was this amazing thing.

And I miss it, in a way, because music has become so compartmentalized now. But in those days, it was all right in one spot. And that's - you know, we used to learn - you know, when I was 15 or 16, playing in groups, we used to sit in the car and try to write the lyrics down as the song was playing. And we'd assign each person a verse. You know, I'm going to do the first one, and you go for the second one. And then sometimes, you'd wait an hour for it to come on again, you know, so you could finish it up. But...

TERRY GROSS: What's a song you did that with?

PETTY: I'll tell you, the hardest one was "Get Off Of My Cloud" by the Stones. It had so many words.

GROSS: Oh, and fast, too (laughter), yeah.

PETTY: Oh, and yeah, and it took us a good three hours to get that one written down. But it was that kind of thing. It was a friend, you know? We - and it was something that was there. You didn't really think about it that much. But looking back on it, it was such a musical education.

GROSS: Well, I want to play another track from your new CD, "Highway Companion." And this is a song called "Down South." Is there a story behind the song?

PETTY: Yeah. This was a - I had a - a long time ago, I had done a conceptual record about the South called "Southern Accents." And this one was inspired by a book by a fellow named Warren Zanes - had written this book about the South. And I read it, and I was really impressed by it. And then I started thinking, well, you know, what if I - you know, I haven't been back there in a long, long time. I lived there, you know, 35 years ago and grew up there. But I went - you know, just kind of went back in my mind, and a story started to kind of develop and appear.

And I'm not really sure who that character is, but I'm - I know part of it's me. And I wrote it - God, I wrote it kind of quickly. I wrote it - I wrote the lyrics out first before I did the music, which is unusual for me. And I - then I searched for a long time to find music that created the right tonal kind of thing with the lyric and the - and I - and had to find a melody that went with it. So it took a little while to pull the whole thing together, but it's one that I'm most pleased with from the record.

GROSS: Well, why don't we hear it? This is "Down South" from Tom Petty's new CD, "Highway Companion."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DOWN SOUTH")

PETTY: (Singing) Heading back down South, going to see my daddy's mistress, going to buy back her forgiveness, going to pay off every witness. One more time down South - and sell the family headstones and drag a bag of dry bones and make good all my back loans. So if I come to your door, let me sleep on your floor. I'll give you all I have and a little more. Sleep late down South...

GROSS: That's "Down South" from Tom Petty's new CD, "Highway Companion." I want to ask you about a couple of lines in that song. You said you're not quite sure who the character is in it, but the song has, headed back down South, going to see my Daddy's mistress, going to buy back her forgiveness. Did you go back home to see your father's mistresses? Is that part of the character you?

PETTY: (Laughter) My father's had many mistresses. I never made a specific trip to meet them. But my dad was - he was hell on wheels, you know? He was quite a character. And he was one of those people that was - somehow remained likeable, though he was really a cad, you know? But...

(LAUGHTER)

PETTY: But I - you know, I don't really know where the - I guess the line just popped into my head, and it seemed a good way to start it.

GROSS: Something I want to mention about the track that we just heard - you know it has that kind of jangly rhythm guitar...

PETTY: Yeah.

GROSS: ...That you play. How did you start playing in that style?

PETTY: I don't know. It just appeared. I think we were inspired a lot by Roger McGuinn of the Byrds and his 12-string playing. And it was just something that came to me naturally, and I kind of took it from there, and I think we've developed it into our own thing. But I'm sure it comes back, you know, from the Byrds, from - you hear that sound in a lot of early '60s records. And the Beatles used it a lot. Dylan used it. And between myself and Mike Campbell, our guitarist, we've - we just make that sound when we play now. It - I'd - I'm not really as conscious of it as other people are, but it just kind of happens.

GROSS: You grew up in Gainesville, Florida.

PETTY: Yeah.

GROSS: I think there's a branch of the University of Florida in Gainesville, right?

PETTY: It is there, the University of Florida, the whole thing.

GROSS: So were you in a college part of Gainesville, or were you in a different part of town?

PETTY: No, I was in the redneck, hillbilly part.

(LAUGHTER)

PETTY: I wasn't part of the academic circle, but it's an interesting place because you can meet almost any kind of person from many walks of life because of the university. But it's really surrounded by this kind of very rural kind of people that are - you know, they're farmers or, you know, tractor drivers or, you know, just all kind of game wardens. You name it, you know? So it's an interesting blend.

My family wasn't involved in the college, you know? They were more of just your white trash kind of, you know, family. And so I have that kind of background, but I always kind of aspired to be something else. And I made a lot of different friends over the years that were, you know, passing through.

GROSS: What did your parents do for a living?

PETTY: Well, my mother worked in the tax collector's office as a clerk. And my dad had a variety of jobs, you know, from - at one point, he owned the only grocery store in the Black part of town, the only Black grocery store that catered exclusively to Black people. And so I used to go down there when I was quite young, and I was just put out in the back. And so it was unusual to me that I'd play all day with Black kids and then they'd bring me back to our, you know, little suburb that we lived in and it was all white kids, you know? And then from there, he went - he did a whole line of different jobs of being an insurance salesman, a truck driver, all kinds of different things.

GROSS: Now, you had an uncle - I guess this is a famous story in your life, because you got to meet Elvis Presley on a movie set when you were 11 through an uncle of yours who was doing something on the set, though I'm not sure what.

PETTY: Yeah, yeah, I had an uncle by marriage who was the kind of - he was very into film. He was the guy in town that developed all the film, and he had a movie camera. He used to film the college basketball practices and football practices. And when a movie came nearby, as a lot of them did around northern Florida, he would usually hire onto the set and work in some capacity. And he was working on an Elvis Presley movie in 1961, I think. "Follow That Dream," it was called. And I was invited there by my aunt, who drove me down to see Elvis. And I really didn't have much idea of who Elvis was. I was only 11.

But we did indeed go there. And it was quite a circus, you know, a lot of, as you'd expect, you know, mobs in the street. And he was just back from the Army. But I didn't really talk with him. I mean, he just sort of nodded my way, you know? I was introduced by my uncle as, you know, this is my nephew. And my two cousins were with me. And he just - I don't remember what he said really, but I was very impressed by it.

And when I went home, I kind of scoured the neighborhood and came up with some old Elvis records. And I started listening to them, and they really took me over, you know? And these were all '50s records. And I had a friend whose older sister had gone to college and left this beautiful box of 45s of rock 'n' roll, you know, from the '50s. And I loved it, you know? It just spoke to me.

GROSS: So how long did it take after that until you started to play something yourself?

PETTY: Well, the idea had never dawned on me until I saw the Beatles on "The Ed Sullivan Show, " like so many musicians did. When I saw it, you know, I didn't think you could just become a rock 'n' roll singer. I didn't see how it could happen, you know, because you needed to be in a movie and have the music appear on the beach and stuff.

GROSS: (Laughter).

PETTY: So I didn't see how one would get that together, you know? So when I saw the Beatles, it sort of hit me like a lightning bolt to the brain that, oh, I see, you know? You have your friends, and you all learn an instrument, and you're a self-contained unit. This is brilliant, you know? And this looks like a great, great job to me. And apparently it did to lots of people because very quickly after that, there were bands forming, you know, in garages all over town. And I was just one in, you know, thousands of little bands that started then in around '64, '65.

MOSLEY: Tom Petty spoke with Terry Gross in 2006. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF TOM PETTY SONG, "THE GOLDEN ROSE")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with Tom Petty. The new TV series "Bad Monkey" features covers of many of his songs with the Heartbreakers. Recently, their 1982 album "Long After Dark" was reissued.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: Let me play another song that was - it's a great song, and it was a very popular song of yours. Johnny Cash recorded the song late in his life. And the song is "I Won't Back Down," which you recorded in 1989. I know it's hard to talk about writing songs, but is there a story behind this one?

PETTY: I wrote this song with Jeff Lynne. We wrote it in the studio while we were mixing another song. And it came very quickly. And I was actually worried about it. I thought that it was maybe just too direct. You know, I thought, well, there isn't really anything to hide behind here, you know? It's very bold and very blunt. There's not a lot of metaphor or, you know, anywhere to go. And - but I was encouraged by Jeff that, you know, no, it's really good. You should record this and go ahead with it. And it's turned out to be maybe, you know, the one song that's had the most influence on people that approach me on the street or talk to me in a restaurant or wherever I go or mail that I've gotten over the years. It's been really important to a lot of people and their lives. And I'm glad I wrote it, and I'm kind of proud of it these days. And I was very, very proud when Johnny Cash did it.

GROSS: Well, let's hear it. From 1989, this is Tom Petty.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I WON'T BACK DOWN")

PETTY: (Singing) Well, I won't back down. No, I won't back down. You can stand up me at the gates of hell, but I won't back down. No, I'll stand my ground - won't be turned around. And I'll keep this world from dragging me down - going to stand my ground. And I won't back down. I won't back down. Hey, baby. There ain't no easy way out. Hey. I will stand my ground. And I won't back down. Well, I know what's right. I got just one life. In a world that keeps on...

GROSS: You recorded that song just a couple of years after an arsonist burned down your house. And the house was set on fire while you and your family were in it. Did your instincts kick in like they were supposed to when you realized that your house was on fire and that you and your wife and child had to get out of there?

PETTY: They kick in pretty fast, you know, when your house is on fire. Yeah, they kicked in really fast, and it was a pretty horrific thing to happen. And I did just survive with, you know, the clothes on my back, but I don't know. Maybe, you know, that had something to do with the songs like "I Won't Back Down" and things because I felt really elated that they didn't get me. You know? Like, I kind of just - that was the thought that was going through my head - was, well, you bastard, you didn't get me, you know? I survived.

But it's very hard to even believe that someone wants to kill you, you know? It's a very hard thing to go through. And, you know, when the police and the arson people are telling me that, you know, someone did it, I'm just going, well surely, there's a mistake. You know, there must have been a bad wire or - you know, and, you know, they were absolutely sure there was no mistake. So the interesting thing about that is how many people called and confessed the following day.

GROSS: You're kidding. Really?

PETTY: You know, yeah. They were confessing from all over America. And it was like, you know, people in New Jersey would call and confess. Then I realized just how bonkers people are. You know, It's like, you know there's some people that are really bonkers, and you have to be careful. But, you know, that was - you know, I never really talked about that much because it stunned me so deeply.

And I'm sure it had a great effect on the music I did because I came back with this very positive, happy kind of music that - I didn't want to go into any dark corner or anything like that. I was just so glad to be alive and to have to have escaped something like that. And, you know, it was also really traumatic and terrible. But part of it made me really be extra glad to just be alive.

GROSS: Well, Tom Petty, thank you so much.

PETTY: Thanks for having me. Is it nice to be here.

MOSLEY: Tom Petty spoke to Terry Gross in 2006. He died in 2017. After a short break, we hear from filmmaker, director, writer, and now McArthur fellow Sterlin Harjo. He co-created the popular TV series "Reservation Dogs" about a group of teenagers on an Oklahoma Indian reservation. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DON'T DO ME LIKE THAT")

TOM PETTY AND THE HEARTBREAKERS: (Singing) I was talking with a friend of mine - said a woman had hurt his pride, told him that she loved him so and turned around and let him go. Then he said, you better watch your step, or you're going to get hurt yourself. Someone's going to tell you lies, cut you down to size. Don't do me like that. Don't do me like that. What if I love you, baby? Don't do me like that.

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Sterlin Harjo, the filmmaker, writer, director and co-creator of the hit TV series "Reservation Dogs," is a recipient of the 2024 MacArthur Fellowship, better known as the Genius Award. Harjo co-created "Reservation Dogs" with New Zealand director Taika Waititi. "Reservation Dogs" is part comedy, part drama, about teenagers on an Indian reservation in Oklahoma who want to break away from the reservation and all the dead ends it represents, also finding reasons to stay. The characters face generational differences and the confusion of growing up between traditional and pop culture, the spirit world and rap music. The series shows the importance of Native traditions, while mocking how tradition can be turned into sanctimonious pop culture cliches.

Harjo belongs to the Seminole and Muskogee Nations, and he's made several independent films and documentaries about Natives in Oklahoma, where he lives. In 2023, "Reservation Dogs" was awarded the prestigious Peabody Award and ended after three seasons. It's still available to stream on Hulu. Terry Gross spoke with Harjo in 2022. They begin with a scene from the first season. One of the teenagers, named Bear, has been planning to leave the reservation with his friends and start a new life in California. He's just been knocked down after being hit with paint balls by a rival group of teens. And when he opens his eyes, he sees an Indian warrior from the spirit world mounted on a horse and dressed in the kind of traditional warrior clothes you'd expect to see in a Western. It's a funny scene. The advice the Spirit gives at the end is pretty good. Bear is played by D'Pharaoh Woon-A-Tai, and the Spirit is played by Dallas Goldtooth.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "RESERVATION DOGS")

DALLAS GOLDTOOTH: (As Spirit) Aho, young warrior - looks as though you've tasted the white man's lead.

D'PHARAOH WOON-A-TAI: (As Bear Smallhill) It's only paintballs.

GOLDTOOTH: (As Spirit) I have had many brothers and sisters meet the same fate in my time.

WOON-A-TAI: (As Bear Smallhill) Are you Crazy Horse or Sitting...

GOLDTOOTH: (As Spirit) No, no, no. I'm not one of those awesome guys. No. I'm more of your unknown warrior. Yeah. You know my name? William Knife-Man. (Vocalizing). I was at the Battle of Little Bighorn. That's right. Now, I didn't kill anybody, but I fought bravely. Well, I didn't actually fight. I actually didn't even get into the fight itself. But I came over that hill real rugged-like. (Vocalizing). I saw Custer like that. That yellow hair - he was sitting there. Son of the morning star, that guy right there - I really hated him. So I went after him. But then, the damn horse hit a gopher hole, rolled over and squashed me. I died there. This horse, actually - little [expletive]. And now I'm meant to travel the spirit world, find lost souls like you. The spirit world, it's cold. My nipples are always hard. I'm always hungry.

WOON-A-TAI: (As Bear Smallhill) Got it.

GOLDTOOTH: (As Spirit) Being a warrior, it's not always easy. You and your thuggy-a** friends - what are you doing for your people? It's easy to be bad. But it's hard to be a warrior with dignity. Remember that. In my time, we gave everything. We died for our people. We died for our land. What are you going to do? What are you going to fight for? (Vocalizing). I'm just [expletive] with you. But for real though, listen to what I said. Marinate on it. Aho.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: I love that scene so much, and I love the series. Sterlin Harjo, welcome to FRESH AIR, and thank you for "Reservation Dogs." Can you talk a little bit about...

STERLIN HARJO: Thank you.

GROSS: ...Coming up with a way to both satirize pop culture images of Indians and also just, like, come up with really comedic Indian characters, but also to create a sense of understanding of the importance of traditions? It's a lot to do all at once.

HARJO: Yeah. Real quick, Terry - so I'm a big fan. I remember being in college, driving around, listening to your show. And I was - like, I think I made - or I was, like, attempting to write a film, I believe. And I remember thinking to myself, I'll know I made it when I get on FRESH AIR with Terry Gross. (Laughter). So thanks for making my dreams come true today.

GROSS: Oh, thank you so much for that. You made my day.

HARJO: (Laughter) Yeah. But, yeah, you know, I think that that character in that scene is crucial. And I think, you know, most of the time people are very precious with Native people and, like, you know, you don't - this is no laughing matter. And, you know, this is very serious and stoic. And that's kind of how, you know, the world is trained to view us. And we realized, like, we need to bake in in this show, like, permission to laugh with us. And I think that that Spirit character - he comes in at this moment in the pilot - and it's like if I ask most people in the world, draw a Native American, that's what they would draw. They would draw an Indian that was dressed in buckskins from the 1800s. They wouldn't draw me. They wouldn't draw any of the characters on the show.

So it was almost like giving people some familiar territory and then turning it on its head. And it allows the audience to say, OK, isn't this funny? Like, we still think that Native people are like this. And, yeah, in history, you know, some of us were like that. But isn't it ridiculous that we still think that they are? And so it gives people permission to laugh. I think it sort of welcomes them into Native humor and allows you to kind of get your footing as you watch the rest of the show.

GROSS: While we're on the subject of permission...

HARJO: Yeah.

GROSS: ...I had asked you before we started, like, what word do you like to use? Do you like to use Indian, Native American, Indigenous? And the term that you don't want to use is Native American. But some people say that, you know, as a white person, like, white people shouldn't use the word Indian. So before everybody kind of gets annoyed with me or I get annoyed with myself or you get annoyed with me...

HARJO: Right. Right.

GROSS: ...Just help me out here. Like, what works?

HARJO: For me - I mean, look. I grew up - my grandma said Indian, so I'm not here to change what my grandma said. And it's what I know. I'm sorry that Christopher Columbus got it wrong.

GROSS: (Laughter).

HARJO: But that's what we call ourselves, you know? And, like, we also - I also say Native, and I say Indigenous. Just depending on where I'm at and who I'm talking to, I will - those are all interchangeable to me.

GROSS: So...

HARJO: And Native American is just a mouthful. You know, I don't want to have to sit around and - it just - you know, it wastes time.

GROSS: All right. So the series is called "Reservation Dogs," an homage to "Reservoir Dogs," Quentin Tarantino's film. What did that film mean to you - and the sensibility that he created in it, which was really something new?

HARJO: So it came out when I was in college, and it was right as I discovered that I could be a filmmaker. And, you know, there's something about Tarantino's love for cinema. It's like - that's the same thing as growing up as a Native kid in rural Oklahoma. I - you know, my father had a friend who worked for the cable company, and that's the only way that we got cable. So I was able to watch movies for free 'cause his friend hooked us up with a cable box that allowed us to watch HBO and Showtime. So I was a - you know, I just became immersed in, like - in movies and pop culture. MTV was out at the time. And I don't know. Like, I think that when you're from a rural community, you know, that's kind of how you live your life. You almost, like, live your life through movies and through pop culture. And it just felt like the right - I mean, first of all, it's a catchy title. I'm not going to lie, but Taika and I came up with that. But, like...

GROSS: Absolutely, yeah.

HARJO: And then it was, well, if we're going to have this show where these kids are living through and constantly referencing pop culture, like, we have to tip our hat to the master of that.

GROSS: When you were growing up, were you growing up, like, on the reservation or near the reservation?

HARJO: Yeah, well, right now, there are - like, right now, I live on the Muscogee Reservation, which is part of Tulsa. Through a lot of complicated government policy and interactions with tribal governments that I can't go into because it'd be another show, it was not identified as a reservation before, but it is now. But if you look at Oklahoma, it used to be Indian territory, which was essentially one big reservation. You know, and then, of course, oil and the land run and other things disrupted that. But this is where Trail of Tears ended. This is where - all of the tribes that were forcibly removed by the U.S. government, we were brought to Indian territory, which is Oklahoma now.

So essentially, it was one giant reservation. And, you know, you go an hour in any direction in Oklahoma or 30 minutes in any direction in Oklahoma, you're going to be in a new tribal territory with different tribal languages on the stop signs and on signage in the town, different culture, different customs. And I think there's something like 38 tribes here. So you grow up different when you're in Oklahoma as a Native kid. You know, like, I didn't feel different, actually. Like, people know Native culture, people know who Native people are and it's a very diverse state. I mean, I think that not a lot of people know about Oklahoma and the diversity here. And I don't know - it was something that I wanted to celebrate in the show, you know, growing up in Indian territory, Oklahoma.

GROSS: You know, in talking about the influence of pop culture on the characters, on the young characters in your show - on some of the older characters, too - the younger characters are so influenced by Black pop culture, by rap, their style of speaking. I found that very interesting. And I'm wondering if there were many Black people where you were growing up.

HARJO: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was, you know, mainly made up of white, Native and Black people. And all of those cultures mix and collide and, you know, come together. You know, the people in the show, they're not acting those accents. You know, that's where they come from, and that's how they talk. And, you know, as far as, like, rap being an influence on the culture - I don't know - I think, like, coming of age as rap was, you know, reaching the height of popularity in rural Oklahoma, and being a Native kid, we gravitated towards it. It gave Native kids a culture and an identity that they could grab a hold of. At a time where our own identity was a bit lost and our own identity was less celebrated, we could grab ahold of hip-hop, and that became something that we could identify with.

MOSLEY: Sterlin Harjo speaking with Terry Gross in 2022. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MATO WAYUHI SONG, "REZ DOGS THEME")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2022 interview with Sterlin Harjo, the cocreator of the hit TV series "Reservation Dogs." This year, he was awarded the MacArthur Fellowship - better known as the Genius Award.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: So in the series, you know, dead loved ones return as ghosts. What are your experiences with keeping up a relationship with, you know, family, friends who have died and you want to keep in your life? Were you brought up with the idea that they are still spirits or ghosts?

HARJO: You know, I think that part of growing up with Muscogee and Seminole culture is death is such a part of our experience. You know, it's very community driven. You know, your cousins are like your brothers and sisters. Your aunts are your extended parents. And, you know, you're close to your elders. And everyone's, you know, a part of this tight community. And I was constantly at funerals. Someone was always passing away. And that is the big mystery and the big confusion, I think, for most people is, like, wow, like, they're gone, you know? And in the culture, you know, you're taught that they're not gone and that you can still speak to them and talk to them. And, you know, there's ghost stories and things like that.

But I just grew up with this sense of magic. And there's a sense of, like, we can communicate, we can reach people in other places. And there's ceremonies for it, and there's different things. But I don't know - it's something that I'm fascinated with, and I explore it as much as I can through my work. I mean, all of my films deal with death in some way. And if you look at Season 2, I mean, there's an episode that aired called "Mabel" that is about the character Elora Danan's grandmother passing away.

And it's a whole episode about her dying. And they're all at the house. And I wrote it with the actress who plays Elora Danan, Devery Jacobs. And it's based on my grandma passing away. And, like, the whole community came together. We were all there. The family was there every day, every night. We were with her. And people would come in and sing songs. And funny things were happening outside and sad things and everything. Life was happening in this one house, and that's what I try to show in this episode.

GROSS: So the teenagers in your TV series, they want to leave the reservation. And two of them actually get out and go to California, end up coming back. What about you? Did you want to, like, get away? - 'cause I know you're living back in Oklahoma, in Tulsa, and I know you went to college in Oklahoma. So did you feel this push and pull between leaving and staying?

HARJO: Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like a lot of people, I wanted to leave, and art was kind of exploding for me. Like, I always wanted to be an artist. And when I got to college, I was kind of blown away with literature I'd never read and, like, music I'd never heard coming from rural Oklahoma. And I just, like - it just kind of expanded my worldview, and I wanted to get out, and I wanted to travel. And then I did. I traveled, and I, you know, went to Oregon and different places - New York.

And what I came to realize - my grandma actually wrote me a letter while I was living in Oregon. And in the letter, it said, someday, you should come back home and write about these Indian churches around here. And something about that - I was just getting into the idea of writing movies at that time, and something about that sentence that she wrote me just clicked. And at that point, I'd been missing it. And it is special, and I was really realizing how special it is.

And I was like, you know, that - when my grandma wrote me that, I was like, wow. No one knows about where I'm from. No one knows about the people that I come from. You know, I moved back home. And I just - like, it took me to leave to realize what I had at home and how unique it is and how much kept secret it is, you know? Like, it's such an interesting community that I come from. And I wanted to be back.

GROSS: Can you tell us something about your parents?

HARJO: Yeah. My parents - my dad roofed houses when I was young.

GROSS: Oh. Oh, 'cause one of your main characters learns to be a roofer and then bonds with one of the people teaching him how.

HARJO: Right. And I'd never seen that on TV, you know, or movies - something that took place on a roof like that. And, like, it was such a part of - my uncles were roofers, my dad. My dad also taught martial arts since I was 5.

GROSS: Did you learn how to fight?

HARJO: I did. I was a competitive fighter growing up from the age of 4. I think there's a video of my first fight. My dad still teaches martial arts to this day in rural Oklahoma. And my mom worked for the tribe when I was young, for the Seminole Nation, and then worked for the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

GROSS: Doing what?

HARJO: When she worked - she was a secretary for the chief of the Seminole Nation when I was young. You know, now what she does with the Bureau of Indian Affairs is she kind of oversees - like, there was so much, like, crookedness done towards Native people and land ownership and mineral right ownership. There's all of this record and things that have gone on since then, and my mom works in helping people kind of trying to figure out if there's land they own that they didn't know they owned or mineral rights.

GROSS: She must be so proud of you.

HARJO: Oh, man. My parents are so overjoyed about the show. My dad said something to me the other day. After the first season came out, my dad one day said to me - he said, you know, you gave Native people a reason to hold their head up. He's like, this show has given people - Native people a reason to hold their head up a little higher. And, I mean, like, you know, to hear my dad say that is - like, that's better than any Emmy that I could get.

And just to also see the amount of people that love this show, especially in my community 'cause that's who I made it for - you know, I'm glad everyone loves it. But I made it for my community, Native people. And, you know, every year at Halloween, there's people that dress up in these, like, fake, dime-store Indian clothing, and they are, quote-unquote, "Indian" for Halloween. We've all seen that growing up. We've all seen it. And my kids are going to have to see it. But all of a sudden, after Season 1, people, kids started dressing up as the Reservation Dogs. So many pictures flooded in...

GROSS: Wow.

HARJO: ...On social media of them dressed as the Reservation Dogs.

GROSS: That's something you didn't have when you were growing up.

HARJO: Right. I didn't have that, you know? And it might have made some sort of difference if I had. I didn't have that, you know, but I did - what I did have was the best storytellers in the world sitting in my grandma's kitchen, telling me stories about these amazing characters that were real and - or not. And I just try to transfer that to this show and to all my work.

GROSS: Sterlin Harjo, it's really just been great to talk with you. Thank you...

HARJO: Thank you, Terry. Thank you.

GROSS: ...For this interview. Thank you for the series. I really love it.

HARJO: Awesome. Thank you so much.

MOSLEY: Sterlin Harjo speaking with Terry Gross in 2022. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews "Anora," the new film that won the top prize at the Cannes Film Festival. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF RAY CHARLES' "JOY RIDE")

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.