Remembering the jazz greats we lost in 2025

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Happy New Year's Eve. Today we continue our retrospective featuring some of our favorite interviews from 2025.

Though he's not often cast in leading roles, you'd likely recognize Richard Kind and his distinctive voice from his appearances in hundreds of movies and TV shows. Last month he was celebrated at the New York Comedy Festival benefit, appropriately titled Richard Kind Everywhere All At Once. In the series "Only Murders In The Building," he was the neighbor Vince Fish, aka Stink-Eye Joe, with a highly contagious case of pink eye. He played Larry David's cousin in "Curb Your Enthusiasm," co-starred in "Mad About You," was in the Michael J. Fox show "Spin City," and earlier in his career was a cast member of the Carol Burnett show "Carol & Company." In the Coen brothers film "A Serious Man," he was the deeply troubled brother.

His youthful ambition was to be in a Stephen Sondheim musical. He's been in two. He starred in a production of "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum" at the Stephen Sondheim Center for the Performing Arts. And in the musical "Bounce," he originated the role of Addison Mizner and got to work with Sondheim.

I interviewed Richard Kind in April. We began our conversation talking about his current role at the time on the Netflix series "Everybody's Live With John Mulaney." Kind was the announcer on the show and also Mulaney's sidekick. Let's start with a clip from an episode of "Everybody's Live." John Mulaney explains that Kind got hit on the head with a Kiss album, which left him with a traumatic brain injury, and now Kind thinks he is Gene Simmons. He's dressed like Simmons, has hair like Simmons and talks like him, too. After he says something vulgar to Mulaney, Mulaney starts to apologize to the audience.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "EVERYBODY'S LIVE WITH JOHN MULANEY")

JOHN MULANEY: OK, so normally I'd apologize for such a crass comment.

RICHARD KIND: (As Gene Simmons) Gentleman, I crave ideas. And when an idea hits me, it grips me and it tortures me until I master it.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: Oh, jeez. Listen, Gene, I know you think you're Gene Simmons, man. But, Richard, if you're in there somewhere, please, just give me a sign.

KIND: (As Gene Simmons) I didn't expect you to greet me with open arms, but I did expect open legs.

(LAUGHTER)

MULANEY: All right.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: Richard Kind, welcome to FRESH AIR. I have to ask you, 'cause this question is as much about me as it is about you.

KIND: Yes?

GROSS: So when I interviewed Gene Simmons many years ago, he said to me, if you want to welcome me with open arms, you'll also have to welcome me with open legs.

KIND: I don't know anything about Gene Simmons. My reference about Gene Simmons is Kiss, seeing him with makeup. And then John sent me the very contentious interview you had with him.

GROSS: Oh, OK.

KIND: So I said, oh, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to be that contentious, very, very - I don't want to say stoic, but he was not even somber, but he was still. And he just talks these awful things. He was awful to you. He was terrible.

GROSS: I got a lot of mileage out of that, though (laughter).

KIND: Did you? OK, well, a lot of times, yeah.

GROSS: Yeah, got a lot of attention (laughter).

KIND: Oh, good, good.

GROSS: Yeah. Insulting me was actually doing me a favor.

KIND: Evidently. Don't expect it from me. I'm not that kind of...

GROSS: Oh, OK, OK.

KIND: Yeah.

GROSS: You're an actor.

KIND: Yeah.

GROSS: And you've been in so many things, but you're not a big celebrity. Like, everybody's seen you in at least one thing. So many people know who you are, but you're not famous in the way that your good friend George Clooney is famous.

KIND: That is correct. I am...

GROSS: And you've said you like it that way.

KIND: I didn't know I would like it that way because my brain, much less my career, has gone through different permutations over the years. When I was a kid, you know, a kid lies in bed and dreams of being center fielder for the Yankees or, you know, being an astronaut, being a rock star. I wanted to be a movie star. I wanted to be up, you know, on the big screen. The funny thing is, when I was angry at my parents, I wasn't going to write them a note that I'm running away. I was going to make a film and show it in the theater.

GROSS: (Laughter).

KIND: That's how I was going to tell them I'm running away.

GROSS: A film about them?

KIND: Yeah, and go, I'll show you. I'm going to go make it big, and you'll see. You'll see. You'll be sorry that you didn't let me go see that movie. And that's what I thought about.

GROSS: (Laughter).

KIND: So, you know, that's what it was. And I had a - my grandparents used to take me to Broadway 'cause they lived in New York. We lived near - we lived in Pennsylvania, in Bucks County. And so I would come - where I was from, my joke is you either went to the Spectrum to see the Rolling Stones or you went to Madison Square Garden. I went to Madison Square Garden. All my friends went to the Spectrum and still live in Philly. I went to New York 'cause that's what I knew. My grandparents showed me the city. And I wanted to be Zero Mostel. Zero Mostel and Robert Preston, that's who I wanted to be.

GROSS: Oh, well, you got to be Zero Mostel.

KIND: I did. I've even gotten to be...

GROSS: You've been in his role in two shows, in "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum"...

KIND: I did, and I did...

GROSS: ...And "The Producers."

KIND: Listen, your intro was really good because you pointed out things I'm very proud of, OK? A lot of people just look at the IMDB page and, you know, like - and give some little credit of a movie that I don't even remember doing. But I liked what you mentioned. You know, the thing is, when you look me up, you see a lot of the movies and TV shows. But, like, I did an opera at New York City Opera.

GROSS: But I want to get back to the fact that you're not a George Clooney-level celebrity.

KIND: Right. Yeah.

GROSS: But everybody seems to know you. You know a lot of celebrities.

KIND: Yeah.

GROSS: And you've seen things that you're grateful you don't have to go through. So what are some of the things that you've seen celebrity friends go through that you're grateful you don't have to deal with?

KIND: All right, I'll tell you a story. I knew Matt Perry when he was a kid. And we would...

GROSS: This is Matthew Perry from "Friends."

KIND: Right. And yeah - yes, that Matt Perry. And we used to, you know, as a young kid, we would go to The Formosa - all of our friends - we would drink. If he could sit at a typewriter and type everything he wanted in his life from a dog to what the house would look like to what kind of car to what his girlfriend would look like, everything came true. And I saw that it doesn't bring happiness, and I thought it would. So anyway, I went to Vegas with Matt around two or three weeks after "Friends" premiered. It was September, October. We started at one side of the casino and went through and was looking both ways to see if he was recognized and he just walked through the casino.

The following January, we did the same thing. He took two steps into the casino and that's as far as he went. And that was one of the saddest things. It's what everybody dreams of and they don't realize that they're dreaming of prison. And it's prison. He doesn't have a life.

I get to walk down the streets of New York and get to where I'm going. I will walk down the street and somebody will say, Mr. Kind, you've changed my - you're wonderful. You're a treasure. Oh, my gosh, you're the best. We love you. My whole family loves you. And that's one person. And I pass 250 people who don't know who I am. So it's wonderful to get the accolades, and it's humbling to just keep walking. I like to keep walking now. When I was a kid, I wanted to be stopped by everybody. Now I have a life.

GROSS: I want to play a clip from the series "Girls5eva," about a girl group that...

KIND: You really did your work. Yeah. That's a good one.

GROSS: And this clip seems almost like a self-parody. So the girl group that Dawn, the Sara Bareilles character, is in, has a show at Radio City Music Hall, but they're having trouble selling tickets. So she's running around the streets of Manhattan looking for a famous person for the show who could help. And she sees a film or TV show is being shot and notices you at the crafts table. Here's the clip.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "GIRLS5EVA")

SARA BAREILLES: (As Dawn Solano) Oh, oh, oh. Wait, wait. You're somebody, right? Where do I know you from?

KIND: (As Richard Kind) Everything. I got an IMDB page longer than a wizard's beard.

BAREILLES: (As Dawn Solano) You're Richard Kind. Oh, you're Bing Bong. Hey, what are you doing tomorrow?

KIND: (As Richard Kind) Why?

BAREILLES: (As Dawn Solano) My girl group booked Radio City because we're making our big comeback, and we haven't sold any tickets because of a variety of reasons.

KIND: (As Richard Kind) Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You've got a list of problems longer than a wizard's beard. Man, I said that already. What else is long?

BAREILLES: (As Dawn Solano) CVS receipt?

KIND: (As Richard Kind) CVS receipt. That's funny. Pretend I said that.

BAREILLES: (As Dawn Solano) Can you do something at our show? We could really use someone who can move the needle.

KIND: (As Richard Kind) No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not a needle mover. And that's by design. I've spent the past 40 years striking the perfect balance between constantly working and never getting bugged in a deli. And another thing...

(SOUNDBITE OF CRUNCHING)

BAREILLES: (As Dawn Solano) Why would you say and another thing and then take a big bite?

KIND: (As Richard Kind) I mistimed it. You overshot. Never chase the big time. The big time is bad news. That's when the fighting starts. People get desperate. Friends turn on each other. What you want is the medium time. Never above No. 5 on the call sheet of life. That's happiness. Look at me. I work every day of my life, doing what I love. Well, not today. Today, I had a doctor's appointment. I'm fine. And then I walk by here. I see the spread, I put some tissue in my collar and I pretend like I'm working here. What is this, anyway? "Euphoria." Did I guest on this show? Eh, it doesn't matter. The important thing is...

BAREILLES: (As Dawn Solano) I don't have time for this. Zendaya? Maude Apatow?

KIND: (As Richard Kind) Oh, my gosh. That conversation was longer than a CVS receipt. (Laughter) That's funny. I just made that up.

GROSS: That's a great scene. I love that scene.

KIND: It's a great scene.

GROSS: Was that supposed to be a parody of you?

KIND: Sure. And it was. And it's hilarious, and I'm mortified. You know, it's...

GROSS: (Laughter) Yeah.

KIND: But it's hilarious. It is a parody. I say yes to a lot of things. I'm in so many things. You know, I'll go back to the question you asked because you addressed George, who was my dear friend.

GROSS: This is George Clooney.

KIND: And remember...

GROSS: Yeah.

KIND: ...I came up in the business with him. And my joke was - is that at the time that we worked together, I was the handsome one, and then our careers went a different way. So he can't go out like I can go out. He can't even go to a bar the way that I can go to a bar. He is going to get bothered. You get tired of that, and you realize, dare I say it, you don't deserve it. You're a little bit of a fraud, you know?

GROSS: Is that how you feel, that you're a little bit of a fraud?

KIND: Oh, every day I feel like a fraud. Every single day. I'm waiting for the world to say I'm not that talented. I don't have that - I'm not that good. Every day I wake up like that. Every day. But a flip side of that, a friend of mine said, I may not always be great anymore, but I think I'm good enough to never stink, you know what I mean? I'm not going to be bad. I'll be fine. There are parts that I hope I'm great in, and I always yearn not just to be great but to be better than everybody else in a scene. I want to be great. But if you're playing tennis with a better tennis player, it's just not going to happen.

So there are some times when I say, you know what? You're not going to win an Academy Award for this role - just do it correctly. Don't try and stand out. Don't try and steal. Just do it. Just do the part. And that's a very different way to come to set.

GROSS: Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Kind. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Kind. He's been in hundreds of movies and TV shows, including "Only Murders In The Building," "Curb Your Enthusiasm," "Big Mouth," "Inside Out," The Coen Brothers' film "A Serious Man," and he's done a lot of theater, including two Sondheim musicals.

GROSS: I want to talk with you about working with Stephen Sondheim and being - like, originating a role, originating a Stephen Sondheim role. Wow. Unfortunately, (laughter) it was a show that never quite caught on, and it went through several iterations and even several titles. So you were in "Bounce" as Addison Mizner, one of two brothers who - was it Boca Raton that they helped build?

KIND: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: So you originated a role. And before we talk about what it was like to work with Sondheim on a Sondheim musical, I want to play a song from it, and it's called "Get Out Of My Life."

KIND: Oh.

GROSS: And I chose this because it's a good song, and you're really great in it. This song is, like, part singing and part, like, really, acting...

KIND: Thank you.

GROSS: ...'Cause you're angry with this. And it really shows you off. This is a song by Stephen Sondheim from his musical "Bounce" with my guest, Richard Kind.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ACT II: GET OUT OF MY LIFE")

HOWARD MCGILLIN: (As Wilson Mizner) Addie, I just want you to know that I appreciate...

KIND: (As Addison Mizner, singing) Get out of my life. Get the hell out of my life. Whatever this race we're in, OK, you win - it's done. And now that you've won, get out of my life. It used to be fun to watch you scheme, and even be a part of it, at the start of it. It got to be fun to stand and beam at the suckers, but I learned that from you. I thought that we'd go from scheme to dream, but then I thought we were a team. Amen, no more. I've looked at the score. You owe me a life, a life of my own. I wanted to glide like you. Before I do, please, leave me alone. Get out of my life so I can live it. Just go away.

MCGILLIN: (As Wilson Mizner) And what if I did?

GROSS: So that was my guest, Richard Kind, singing "Get Out Of My Life" from the original cast recording of the Stephen Sondheim musical "Bounce." So you worked directly with Sondheim on this, right?

KIND: I did, yeah.

GROSS: What kind of direction did he give you about how to do his songs?

KIND: He's a guy who always liked actors better than singers, but he loved when he heard his songs sung beautifully. But during a show, he wanted it acted better. He loved actors. He would always check in, are you having fun? Does this sound good? He wrote for the actor and yet was so specific. If I put a "the" instead of an "an" in the lyric, he would correct me. Hanging on my wall in my house, one of my most treasured things, is just typed out lyrics, you know, maybe three, four lines in the song. And he would then cross it out and put it in pencil - 'cause he famously wrote in pencil - the changes. And he was diligent on every comma, every word. He really worked hard.

I will say this - this is sort of funny. The first time I met him, I went up to him. It was at Hal's Christmas party, Hal Prince's Christmas party. I went up to him and I said, do you know who I am? I had a beard. And I go, do you know who I am? He said, yes, you're Richard Kind, and the beard goes. That was the first thing he said to him.

GROSS: (Laughter).

KIND: Also, one other thing, short thing, is there's a thing called sitzprobe, which is when the orchestra - you hear the orchestra play what you're going to hear for the rest of the run. You've been only accompanied by a piano, now you've got an orchestra. So we're doing sitzprobe, and I go to the bathroom at the same time he goes to the bathroom. I didn't harmonize a lot. There were a lot of just solos in the show. And I said, thank you so much for not writing harmonies. I can't do them. And he said he can't do them either. He can write them, but he can't sing them either. His ear isn't good enough.

GROSS: What was it like? He was one of your heroes. You always wanted to be in one of his shows, and here he was directing you and kind of being very picky about every word and probably about every note as well.

KIND: Sure, very.

GROSS: Did that make you self-conscious?

KIND: Yes, I was very scared. I was nervous the whole time. I was a smoker at the time - quit. That's when I quit smoking.

GROSS: Oh, you quit smoking to sing Sondheim?

KIND: You have to. I had to do it well. I know what smoking can do. You have to have breath control. You know, you have to go to the end of the line. You can't take a pause in the middle of one of his words or one of his sentences. He writes for actors. That's what he does. His songs, although lyrical, are more actory (ph) if you're doing a show. Yes, "Send In The Clowns" as a solo piece is a lovely song, but in the show, it takes on a completely different - it's a completely different animal. And you have to be able to serve that.

Actually, if you're in a sitcom, you can't take a breath in the middle of a line because in order to get the proper laugh, you have to take it to the end of the sentence. Otherwise, the audience may hear where the joke is going to go, or you can't surprise them. And there's a rhythm to a joke. You have to be able to control what that rhythm is. So smoking is your enemy. You have to have lung control.

GROSS: So we talked a little bit about working in - with Sondheim on one of his musicals. Earlier in your life, your music was being a singing waiter in a Manhattan restaurant. How did that work, and what was your restaurant repertoire? I'm thinking, speaking of Sondheim, that you have to sing, like, upbeat, ingratiating songs, and you can't sing a song from "Sweeney Todd," like, "They All Deserve To Die" (ph).

KIND: You don't. I sang...

GROSS: Yeah.

KIND: For me, I sang - my audition song was "Hey There." I would sing that. I'd sing - the big song was "There Is Nothin' Like A Dame." I got to sing that pretty well. One night - (laughter) - one night, Theodore Bikel was in the restaurant. I wanted to impress him so much. So I wanted to sing "There Is Nothin' Like A Dame," which goes up to a high C, I think, or a G, let's say, a G. It goes up to a high G, which was a note at the time that I could reach. So, we had a replacement pianist that night. The guy who usually played it for me was not there. So he goes, what key do you sing it in? I go, I don't know. And he goes, well, maybe you'd sing it in C. And as I'm singing - and I'm going, this doesn't feel right. So that by the time I go, (vocalizing), like that. And I hit the wrong note. (Singing off key) Dame. It was horrible. And the whole restaurant stopped. I did not impress Theodore Bikel. I ran back to the kitchen, and the chef, who was a lovely guy, and he was French, he goes, oh, Richie. That did not sound good. It was hilarious.

GROSS: (Laughter) Were tips based on your singing?

KIND: God, no. I'd starve. Listen, Terry, I sing, but I'm not a singer. And that I could do Sondheim, I can hit notes, but I can't harmonize, and I'm not a singer. People ask me to sing. It's like I'm an improviser, but I'm not a great improviser. I can improvise. There are great singers, and there are great improvisers. I'm very good. It's just in my bag of tricks. So I can sing a song, but I'm not great. But I'm very loud. I'm from the Ethel Merman school of music, and that's what I do.

GROSS: (Laughter).

If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Kind. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF STEPHEN SONDHEIM'S "ACT ONE: OVERTURE")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Kind. He's been in hundreds of movies and TV shows, including "Only Murders In The Building," "Curb Your Enthusiasm," "Big Mouth," "Inside Out," the Coen brothers film "A Serious Man," and he's done a lot of theater, including two Sondheim musicals.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: You had a teacher - an acting teacher who said to you, you're not going to get the roles until you're in your 30s.

KIND: Right. It's not what Hollywood wants.

GROSS: Yeah. So how discouraging was that when your own acting teacher said to you you're not going to get the roles until your 30s. Did you see that as discouraging? Like, he's telling me I'm not going to get roles or...

KIND: Terry, you've heard me...

GROSS: ...Wait, wait, wait.

KIND: OK. Go ahead.

GROSS: Or did you see it as encouraging with him saying, like, it's going to take some time, but you will get roles when you're in your 30s? You will do well.

KIND: No, I had two...

GROSS: Which way did you interpret it?

KIND: No, you're talking about two teachers.

GROSS: Oh. OK.

KIND: My high school teacher - I went to school with a great actor named Robert Curtis Brown. You'd know him as the yuppie in "Trading Places." Now, he's had a career that's much larger, but whenever I mention his name, that's his most famous role. He was a great actor. He is a great actor and a handsome guy. So I had my high school teacher say, you know, go into your dad's business because Hollywood is looking for Robert, OK? That's who they want. I acknowledge that.

Then I went to college as a pre-law so that I would take over my dad's store. Frank Galati, a very well-known Chicago theater maven at the Goodman, at Steppenwolf, and a teacher at Northwestern - so when I got his advice, he said, look, go be a producer and so you get to be in showbiz, but your biz - I go, no, it's either I'm an actor or I'm a rich jeweler. And I said - he said, well, you're not going to get famous or get known until you're in your 30s, when you sort of grow into who you are.

Did I believe him? I - Terry, I wish that I could say this is what I chose to do. All I did was say yes to whatever was presented, and my path was created by that. I didn't set out to join Second City. I went to some place in Chicago, Practical Theatre Company. They saw me and said do you want to do Second City? I said, yeah. Well, Second City taught me a lot. Four-and-a-half years, I - all of that way station of waiting for roles and waiting for roles was spent on stage and getting paid and developing into the actor who I was in front of 400 people a night. I got lucky. I really did.

GROSS: Your father owned a jewelry store in Princeton. And you sometimes work there, and apparently it was a famous store. And I would presume you sold a lot of jewelry to men buying gifts for girlfriends and fiances and wives and mistresses. What was it like as a man selling to men who know nothing about women's jewelry but want to give something to the woman in their life who they love or they want to impress or they want to make up with?

KIND: Well, OK. My dad didn't trust me with the beautiful jewels or the expensive stuff. I sold lighters and sterling-silver key chains and the pens and stuff like that and maybe maybe candelabras, but I didn't sell the expensive stuff. And I was no good. I was a good salesman. My dad was a great salesman. I'd spend 45 minutes with some guy saying, oh, you see these pearls? You see how they're graduated? You see how this set of - this strand, the pearls match each other best? And then my dad would come up after I'd been with the guy for 40 minutes, and he would come up. He goes, Bill, Mary wants a strand of pearls? And he'd go, yeah. And he goes Richie, wrap these up, and he'd pick up the pearls and then I would go. And that's what my dad did. I worked and I worked and I worked.

Now, there's a very funny story where I had a Dunhill lighter, OK? And I'm showing this woman various Dunhill lighters, which are beautiful lighters. And I pull one out, and she says, I'll take this one. And I write down $25. And she says, no, excuse me, I think that's $250. I go, no, no, it's $25. And I show her, and she goes, no, that says $250. And I look, I go, oh, my God, $250 for a lighter?

GROSS: (Laughter).

KIND: So that's the kind of salesman I was. Yeah. I was not great. I would be behind the repair desk, and a woman brought in two dome-shaped earrings, like gold earrings, OK? They were large. And she says one of them was all - you know, had dents and everything. And she goes, my dog got a hold of this, and I'm wondering if we can match it. And I go, no, but if you bring the dog in, I can feed him the other one. And so that's the kind of...

GROSS: (Laughter).

KIND: That's how I approached my work.

GROSS: So you had a significant role in a film I really love, "A Serious Man," that was made by the Coen brothers. And Michael Stuhlbarg plays a man whose wife is leaving him. He might be losing his teaching job. A student is kind of blackmailing him. His whole life is falling apart. And he's also wrestling with the concept of God and with his Judaism.

You play his brother. You're a gambler. You're broke. You have a sebaceous cyst that's become a big problem. You're in misery. And it's a kind of modern-day version of the Book of Job, at least that's how I think of it. And I'm wondering if you thought of it that way and if you read or reread the Book of Job to do the role and if people talked about it on the set.

KIND: Not at all.

GROSS: (Laughter) I'm glad I asked.

(LAUGHTER)

KIND: I had a teacher who said, every answer you need is in the script. Just read the script. You don't have to do any research. Certainly, the Book of Job wouldn't have done anything. I didn't think that was telling the Book of Job. I thought I was talking about this guy named Arthur Gopnik, and these were his circumstances. And you play pretend. If it meshes into what you think is the Book of Job and you interpret all of that, God bless you. But no, no, no. That's not what I did at all. I just played the scene. What are my circumstances? How do I feel? And you just play pretend. That's what it is.

GROSS: What was the Coen brothers' approach to directing you? From your point of view as an actor, what was it like to work with them?

KIND: They're great. I love them. You're always at the height of your game. I was surprised at how word-perfect they like their script, but they should 'cause they're great writers. Sometimes Joel would take a physical position that sort of told me everything about what he wanted in the scene. The scene where the police are at the door, he sat down in a chair, and he leaned back. And Joel is a long, lanky man, and his face almost looked 5 inches longer than it is. And that's what I saw in - when I leaned back on the chair. Dare I say, he almost looked like a horse when he was looking back, and that's what I saw.

So I played pretend that I was a lovely man, even though I am a poker player. You said a gambler. I think of myself as a card player, not necessarily a gambler. I don't know why, but when you said a gambler, I said, no, I'm not a gambler. I'm a poker player. And that's different. I'm a gamesman. I'm not a gambler. Does that make sense to you?

GROSS: Absolutely. Yeah.

KIND: OK. And then...

GROSS: You had a skill. You weren't...

KIND: Yes, I had a skill, and they're not letting me play cards anymore. Why? Why aren't they doing - why? I can't even play cards anymore? And what a sad man - I'm a very simple man, as opposed to my brother, who's a serious man. I'm a simple man. That's what I saw. I'm even talking like I'm - as I'm describe - this is - I don't do that. So that's who the guy was.

GROSS: Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Kind. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. We're listening back to my interview with actor Richard Kind as part of our retrospective featuring some of our favorite interviews of 2025. When we left off, we were talking about his role in the Coen brothers' film, "A Serious Man."

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

GROSS: The movie "A Serious Man" is also about, you know, like, struggling with your faith...

KIND: Yes.

GROSS: ...'Cause the Michael Stuhlbarg character has conversations with rabbis, and he's kind of losing his faith because everything's going wrong in his life.

KIND: Right.

GROSS: I know you were on "Finding Your Roots," and you found out that some of your ancestors were religious leaders in the Pale of Settlement.

KIND: Right, right.

GROSS: And the Pale of Settlement was during the Russian Empire. It was a large area of what we now call Eastern Europe that was basically the ghetto for Jews. Like, Jews had to live within this expanse of land. And so, so many American Jews, their grandparents or ancestors lived in the Pale of Settlement. What did it do to your own faith or religious practice, if you had any? I know you're born Jewish. I have no idea how observant you are. But what did it do to your level of observance to find out about people on your family tree being religious leaders?

KIND: I know what God is to me. I don't believe in a Jewish God. I believe in God. I believe there is a power, and I believe that he encompasses all religions. I believe that religion is just something that we go to, to make us feel better or to give us some sort of foundation so - because the world is so full of chaos, and we can't really find ourselves. What I do believe is in my ancestors, and I believe that Judaism, that form of foundation, must survive because these people gave their lives. And they sacrificed and they believed and - in the Jewish religion and in the state of Israel and let them have a foundation that they believe in called Judaism. So it's very important that I know what my roots are and what my heritage is and to serve my heritage.

GROSS: Do you practice any - do you observe the holidays and the Sabbath and all that? Like, how far do you go?

KIND: No, I don't observe the Sabbath. What I do observe is the High Holy Days because that God who I believe in - and I live my life daily by, I hope, acting correctly to my fellow man, which is a form of prayer to me and a form of going to church or going to temple. Wow, I can't believe I just said going to church.

GROSS: (Laughter).

KIND: I believe that is my way of serving God. I believe I'm a good person. And I try and do - I really do try and do unto others as I would myself. So I do go to Rosh Hashanah, and I do go to Yom Kippur, and I am very observant about that. Part of it's karma. Part of it is, hey, don't tilt the boat, you know? Don't rock the boat right now. Just keep going. And it's also the acknowledgment of my parents, my grandparents and all those heritage. But I can't believe that my - how my genetics have just dissipated over the years, so that they started out as rabbis in the 1600s, and this is what we end up with? Me...

GROSS: (Laughter).

KIND: ...Richard Kind. That's horrible. But I do try and study as much as I can and read and try and be up on news and be as responsible a citizen as I can to serve those rabbis who were there at the time.

GROSS: What you're saying reminds me of something that you've told another interviewer, which is - you said, I have a huge ego with no confidence. You want to explain?

KIND: Yeah. Being an actor - it's abnormal. It's an anomaly. It's unnatural for a man to get up on a stage in front of people. It's unnatural to be in front of a camera while 50 to 100 people are behind the camera and pretend that you're somebody else and just lay bare your emotions or pretend you're somebody else. It's unnatural. You know how people are scared of getting attention, and I'm waving my arms, going, look at me, look at me, look at me. And yet, with that look at me, look at me, look at me, comes a fear of what I said earlier - I'm a fraud. Am I good enough? I can't - I don't know whether or not what I'm doing - and I think any actor worth his salt would like to be better and give a better performance than what they gave. There's - oh, my gosh, did I do it correctly? Should I do it again?

I need affirmation all the time. It's why I like live theater. Even if it's a drama, I can feel the audience listening to me, liking me. That's - and I'm an empty urn. There's no bottom to the urn of love that I need. That is lack of confidence. And yet my ego says, go out and do it and do it and do it louder than everybody else. It's who I am. I'm oversized in my voice. I'm loud in my opinions. When I'm opinionated, I'm really loud. And even my acting - a funny line that my friend Craig Bierko said in a toast once, he goes, the astronauts were up in space, and they saw two things - the Great Wall of China and every acting choice Richard Kind ever made.

GROSS: I love that line so much.

KIND: It's so funny. It's so funny. Is it how I chose to live my life? No, I wouldn't choose it, but it's what I'm saddled with.

GROSS: Do you tell jokes? I mean, you obviously have a great sense of humor, but do you...

KIND: Terry...

GROSS: ...Actually tell joke jokes?

KIND: ...Nobody tells a joke better than I do.

GROSS: Oh, great. Do you want to tell us one that you love?

KIND: Sure. So this mother is making her teenage son's bed. And she's tucking in the sheets, and she reaches underneath, and she pulls out a magazine of bondage, of, like, handcuffs and whips. And she goes, oh, my God. So the husband comes home. She goes, honey, honey, honey, look what I found under Timmy's (ph) bed. He goes, oh, my God. She goes, what are we going to do? He goes, well, we're certainly not going to spank him.

GROSS: (Laughter) That's great.

KIND: Oh, I got lots of them. Nobody tells a joke better than I do.

GROSS: Well, Richard Kind, thank you so much for talking with us.

KIND: Well, thank you. Terry, this was fun. I enjoyed it. You're great. You're great.

GROSS: My interview with Richard Kind was recorded in April, while he was appearing in the Netflix series "Everybody's Live With John Mulaney" as Mulaney's sidekick. It's streaming on Netflix.

After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will remember some of the jazz musicians we lost in 2025. This is FRESH AIR.

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. Today, our jazz historian, Kevin Whitehead, looks back at seven jazz notables who died this year. He earlier paid tribute to band leader Jack DeJohnette and to my late husband, the jazz critic Francis Davis. Kevin's RIP list starts with singer Sheila Jordan.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SHELIA'S BLUES")

SHELIA JORDAN: (Singing) So she sent me to live with my grandparents near a small coal mining town. Pennsylvania stayed. Grew up with the coal miners. Singing in the beer garden every Saturday. We used to sit around, and they'd drink. And they'd sing their songs. You are my sunshine. My only sunshine. You make me happy. But rarely did they ever find...

KEVIN WHITEHEAD, BYLINE: Sheila Jordan, who grew up partly in Western Pennsylvania, as she tells us on "Sheila's Blues" from 1984. Jordan, who died in 2025 at 96, started singing as a kid and never stopped, building on Charlie Parker's "Be-Bop" to find her own confident voice in all sorts of musical settings. She also taught and inspired countless other vocalists. When Sheila sang, you could hear the joy she found in jazz, which kept her eternally young. Other veteran singers who passed this year include Cleo Laine, Nancy King and Lillian Boutte. Also, the buttery smooth, bartone Andy Bey, who lingered over slow ballads. But Andy Bey also had a way with rhythm tunes like this 1970 Duke Pearson number.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I DON'T CARE WHO KNOWS IT")

ANDY BEY: (Singing) When I look at you, it thrills me through and through. And I don't care who knows. Baby, I'm yours.

WHITEHEAD: Musicians from the jazz rhythm section who died in 2025 include guitarist George Freeman, pianists Hal Galper, Mike Wofford and Mike Ratledge, drummers Al Foster, Greg Bandy and Louis Moholo-Moholo, tuba players Joe Daley and Jim Self, and one of the great bass players of our time, whose appointment book was always full - Ray Drummond. Bass violin is a big instrument, and Drummond was a big man who handled it with effortless grace.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

WHITEHEAD: Another influential teacher who passed this year was alto saxophonist Bunky Green, who taught in Jacksonville for a couple of decades after a long spell in Chicago. He didn't record so very much and not always in ideal settings, though even his '70s funk records have their moments. Back then, his slippery phrasing and side-slipping harmony pointed the way for future alto stars Steve Coleman, Greg Osby and Rudresh Mahanthappa. Here's Bunky Green on "Tension & Release" in 1979.

(SOUNDBITE OF BUNKY GREEN'S "TENSION & RELEASE")

WHITEHEAD: Another much better known horn player passed in 2025. Let's listen a bit, then I'll tell you who it is.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE JAZZ MESSENGERS' "SECRET LOVE")

WHITEHEAD: The Jazz Messengers' 1966 on "Secret Love" with trumpet hot shot Chuck Mangione. A few years later, Mangione would turn his attention to pop jazz, hitting it big in 1978 with "Feels So Good," a terminally mellow tune that set him up for life. Chuck Mangione was a good sport about his flugelhorn-cuddling public image, spoofing himself on TV's "King Of The Hill." But give the man his due. His younger self could really play.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE JAZZ MESSENGERS' "SECRET LOVE")

WHITEHEAD: Chuck Mangione. A few other players who worked at the edges of jazz passed in 2025, including vibraphonist Roy Ayers, accordionist Guy Klucevsek, much missed pedal steel guitarist Susan Alcorn, Brazilian multi-instrumentalist Hermeto Pascoal and the great Bronx-born Latin band leader Eddie Palmieri. As a pianist, Palmieri showed off some fresh moves within the Afro Cuban tradition. Soloing on his "Dime" from 2005, every time he slams out a chord, it's like he's switching channels to another rhythmic profile. It's a montuno gone postmodern.

(SOUNDBITE OF EDDIE PALMIERI'S "DIME")

WHITEHEAD: Besides Eddie Palmieri, another formidable arranger for big bands died this year, pianist Jim McNeely, who played with New York's Vanguard Jazz Orchestra for years. He also wrote for several European radio bands who loved how good his sleekly handsome charts made them sound. Let's go out with a slice of Jim McNeely's suite, "Rituals," which riffed on themes and rhythms from Stravinsky's "Rite Of Spring." McNeely looking forward and back, as the jazz greats do. The stuff masters like these dreamed up is now part of the collective wisdom shared by all of us they leave behind.

(SOUNDBITE OF FRANKFURT RADIO BIGBAND & JIM MCNEELY'S "RITUALS: SACRIFICE I")

GROSS: Kevin Whitehead is the author of "New Dutch Swing," "Why Jazz?" and "Play The Way You Feel." Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll continue our retrospective of some favorite interviews from 2025 with Jeff Hiller. This year, he won an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series "Somebody Somewhere" as Joel, the main character's best friend, who runs a secret nighttime cabaret at his church for his LGBTQ friends. Jeff Hiller originally felt called to be a pastor, but being gay was a pretty major obstacle. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair.

(SOUNDBITE OF DUKE ELLINGTON'S "AULD LANG SYNE")

GROSS: FFRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with engineering today from Charlie Kyer (ph). Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Anna Bauman, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a happy, healthy and fulfilling New Year.

(SOUNDBITE OF DUKE ELLINGTON'S "AULD LANG SYNE")

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