Other segments from the episode on October 29, 2025
Transcript
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And today, I'm talking with director Nia DaCosta, who's had a meteoric rise over the past few years. "Little Woods," her first feature in 2018, was an intimate story about two sisters in North Dakota who turned to a life of crime to make ends meet. It got a lot of attention, including from Jordan Peele, who later brought DaCosta on to reimagine the horror classic "Candyman." That film made DaCosta the first Black woman to direct a movie that opened at No. 1 at the U.S. box office. DaCosta made history again with "The Marvels," becoming the youngest director and first Black woman to helm a film in the Marvel universe. And now she's turned to something even more personal, a project she wrote years ago and never let go of. It's called "Hedda," and it's DaCosta's take on Henrik Ibsen's 1891 play "Hedda Gabler." In DaCosta's hands, the story becomes a dark exploration of a woman suffocating in a life she never wanted, trapped in a 1950s English manor house over the course of one wild, unsettling night. Tessa Thompson stars as Hedda. And here's a scene at the start of the film, where police interrogate her about what happened that night.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "HEDDA")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Hedda Tesman. Is that right? This is your husband's house?
TESSA THOMPSON: (As Hedda Gabler) Hedda is fine.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) So could you tell us the events of the evening, the way you remember them, leading up to the shooting?
THOMPSON: (As Hedda Gabler) No. My memory's a bit fuzzy. It was a party after all. Certainly, I can do my best. The first thing I remember seeing is a bloody mess of a person dragged into my...
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Before that, please.
MOSLEY: (As Hedda Gabler) Well, there was a lot of yelling.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Earlier.
THOMPSON: (As Hedda Gabler) Where should I start?
MOSLEY: What ensues is a dark and twisted tale of jealousy and control. Nia DaCosta grew up in Harlem and studied film at NYU's Tisch School of the Arts. She started out as a production assistant, working on sets for Martin Scorsese, Steve McQueen and Steven Soderbergh. She recently wrapped directing "28 Years Later: The Bone Temple," the next film in the zombie horror trilogy. Nia DaCosta, welcome to FRESH AIR.
NIA DACOSTA: Thank you so much for having me.
MOSLEY: You know, you have been quoted as saying that this particular story, Hedda it was like a revelation when you first read the play. And I just have to know, what was it about Hedda's character that you couldn't let go of?
DACOSTA: Oh, man. I mean, so much. I think, you know, she does some pretty terrible things in the play, and she does some extreme acts that are emotionally violent, and she asks people to do some terrible things. But she's so vulnerable. And she's as vulnerable as she is vicious. And she's so complicated. And she's funny, and she's all these things. And I just thought it was a really interesting portrait of a woman who was trying to express herself while living under oppression, essentially.
MOSLEY: That's so interesting you use the words vulnerable and vicious because Hedda is a product of her time. The original play is set in 19th century Norway. So we understand what life for a woman was back in those days. But in your version, that confinement takes on new dimensions because you've reimagined her. She's a mixed-race woman. Her former lover and her husband's rival is also a woman.
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Walk me through those decisions.
DACOSTA: At the time, when I came to writing a script, I always just thought a Black woman would be the center because I wanted more visions of us and more diverse kinds of visions of us, Black women, in media. And also, I was lucky enough to have Tessa Thompson as a collaborator on my first film and as a very good friend. And I just thought, oh, well, Tess is going to play Hedda. You know, that was just an assumption I made, and I told her about it. And so from that point on, I'm like, yeah, so now Hedda is a Black mixed-race woman. You know, now she's this dimension that I have to feed into the script.
And then turning Eilert Lovborg from the play into Eileen Lovborg was really about me wanting to dig into what I found so compelling about the piece, which was really this idea of a woman trying to navigate a repressed society who's trying to put her into a box. And I thought, she needs more women around her. And this character, Eilert - he's always complaining about being so brilliant, and no one understands him, and no one listens to him. And I thought, well, if that's a woman, that's a female character, then I want to empathize a bit more, and then I understand even more fully why she's so depressed and why that leads her to drink and to kind of keep self-sabotaging in a way. I thought she was much more compelling as Eileen than Eilert.
MOSLEY: OK, this is so fascinating. First, I want to start with the race thing because your approach kind of feels different than blind casting, which is something...
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...That we've seen recently over the last few years. It's not like you're ignoring race entirely by just choosing someone and just plopping them into a time period. How do you view it? How do you look at it?
DACOSTA: Yeah. You know, I think in the sort of correcting the sins of our past, the dearth of visibility for people of color in cinema, I think sometimes the easy answer was, oh, colorblind casting. So you can have people of color in the film, but you don't have to contend at all with their race and what that actually means for them moving through the world. Then the other version is the film is only about that. It's here to educate you about the experiences of being a Black person, or a person of color, or a queer person or any minority, and that's a function of it. But that wasn't really interesting to me when it came to doing this adaptation. I really just wanted to represent characters - in particular, a Black woman, mixed-race woman in her experience, not in an educational way, but just saying, yeah, she's Black, and this is a part of what that means in the context of the story, so that it feels lived in. It felt like what it feels like to live the life as opposed to, you know, a seminar about race relations in 1950s in England.
MOSLEY: I think I heard you say that the 1950s were kind of the great age of pretending.
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: And I wanted to unpack that a little bit. What made it the perfect time period for your adaptation?
DACOSTA: I mean, everything you said, but, also, I'm really fascinated by the postwar period and how it shapes our lives even today. I mean, it's - so many of the conflicts that we're dealing with now are directly related to the end of that war. And I found it really interesting how people tried to recover and heal after, you know, 44 million people die - and these conflicts of opened wounds and maybe pasted over some other ones and what a society does to say, you know what? We're OK. It's over now. Let's go back to normal.
And the women who'd been experiencing this new kind of freedom - you know, they're working now. They're kind of taking more prominent places in society are like - are told the men are back. Bye, girl. Leave the factories. You go home. And then these men come back traumatized. And they're told, OK, go back to work. Thank you so much. Let's go. We're good. Everything's fine.
And so the '50s have this energy. And it's no surprise the '60s came right after. You know, with this explosion of freedom, this questioning of, like, what is freedom? What does freedom look like from, like, a sexual point of view, but then also, like, you know, the Civil Rights Movement in America, in particular, exploded in this time. So I think the '50s were this time of a reaction to trauma in a way that I found really fascinating. And that reaction was safety comes in conformity. And because this film is about people trying to find safety and fighting against that conformity, I just thought it was a really interesting parallel.
MOSLEY: Oh, my God. Is that what we're going through right now? It's just a...
DACOSTA: Oh, my God, girl.
MOSLEY: Is it?
DACOSTA: I'm a bit of a stoic, I think - capital S - when it comes to trying to navigate the horrors of humanity in our present day. And history really helps me to sort of process what's happening, the cyclical nature of it. And I think it is what's happening right now. The world is so confusing. There's so many forces we don't understand. Social media is as scary as nuclear weapons. And we just want to feel safe. And I think that's where tradwives come from, by the way (laughter).
MOSLEY: I think you're right. I mean, that's when - when you said safety comes in conformity, I mean, I thought about all of those things. I actually want to play a scene that really gets at the heart of this idea of safety as conformity. It's - and it's also at the heart of the dynamic between Hedda and her former lover, Eileen. So in this scene I want to play, they've stolen a few moments alone at this party. And Eileen, who is played by Nina Hoss - she's an academic. She's a rival, as I mentioned, to Hedda's husband in the academic world. And she's basically telling Hedda, you're wasting your life playing a housewife. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "HEDDA")
NINA HOSS: (As Eileen Lovborg) You could be so much more. Look what I've done. You could do anything.
THOMPSON: (As Hedda Gabler) Well, like what? Become a professor? Tell me. How many women are at the university teaching?
HOSS: (As Eileen Lovborg) Two.
THOMPSON: (As Hedda Gabler) And they're both white, I presume.
HOSS: (As Eileen Lovborg) Whatever.
THOMPSON: (As Hedda Gabler) You're upset I couldn't choose you.
HOSS: (As Eileen Lovborg) I was once. Not anymore. Not for a long time.
THOMPSON: (As Hedda Gabler) Since Thea?
HOSS: (As Eileen Lovborg) I know she's still there. I saw her little bag near the door.
THOMPSON: (As Hedda Gabler) Do you know that a roach can live without its head for a week?
HOSS: (As Eileen Lovborg) Excuse me?
DACOSTA: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: That was a scene from the new movie "Hedda," written and directed by my guest today, Nia DaCosta. I'll tell you, I had to Google that a roach can live without its head for...
DACOSTA: Oh, my gosh. That was a Tessa Thompson ad-lib. I loved it.
MOSLEY: Oh, it was?
DACOSTA: Yeah, 'cause earlier in the scene, Eileen says, you scramble around like a roach trying to control a man's destiny. You know, shape your own. And that's why Nina responded in that way. She's like, huh? That wasn't the line. (Laughter) So fun.
MOSLEY: Were there a lot of ad-libs in the film?
DACOSTA: No, actually. I mean, I have a, like, pretty robust rehearsal process. So if there's any thoughts and feelings, you know, we can bring it up then, and I can adjust the script accordingly. But I also - like, once we get what we need, I'm like, OK, jazz riff if you want. But it's not, like, a, you know, free-for-all.
MOSLEY: There's so much tension in that scene because it's not just about their romantic past. It's two completely different survival strategies. So Eileen thinks she's free because she's refused to marry. She has this career. But Hedda sees something else. And I was just curious - when you were writing that dynamic, were you consciously setting up two different kinds of traps?
DACOSTA: Absolutely. Something I think a lot about is, what does freedom look like? What does it mean to be free, especially as a Black person in America but just as a human being? And the tension of the movie is this question for women who don't have the access that they think they have. But I think often people - their shortcut to freedom is trying to attain power. And so what these two women are actually doing is trying to attain power - Hedda through marriage and through the conformity and Eileen through her intellect. But those are both incomplete things because power doesn't necessarily equal freedom, especially if you have to hold on to the power to feel free. And freedom should really be divorced of those things. So that was a really intentional sort of dichotomy I was trying to set up between those two characters.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Nia DaCosta. We're talking about her new film, "Hedda," a provocative reimagining of Henrik Ibsen's classic play "Hedda Gabler." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF HILDUR GUONADOTTIR'S "ALLEGRETTO - GLASS")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today, I'm talking to director Nia DaCosta about her latest film, "Hedda," starring Tessa Thompson. The film is a modern queer adaptation of Henrik Ibsen's 1891 play set over one charged night in a 1950s English manor house party. DaCosta made history as the first Black female director to debut at No. 1 at the box office for her 2021 horror film, "Candyman," which she co-wrote with Jordan Peele.
After your first film, "Little Woods," Jordan Peele tapped you to direct "Candyman," which is a reimagining of the 1992 film, directed by Bernard Rose, about an urban legend, this supernatural figure with a hook for a hand who appears when you say his name five times in a mirror. But your version digs deeper into racial violence and systemic erasure that created that legend. And I actually want to play a clip from the film. In this scene, Billy Burke, played by Colman Domingo, lives in what was once the Cabrini–Green housing project in Chicago. And he's telling Anthony a story of the Candyman. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "CANDYMAN")
COLMAN DOMINGO: (As Billy Burke) But the first one, where it all began, was in the 1890s. It's the story Helen found, the story of Daniel Robitaille. He made a good living touring the country painting portraits for wealthy families, mostly white. And they loved him. But you know how it goes. They love what we make, but not us. One day, he's commissioned to paint the daughter of a Chicago factory owner who made his fortune in the stockyards. Well, Robitaille committed the ultimate sin of his time. They fell in love. They had an affair. She got pregnant. The girl tells her father, and, well...
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character, crying).
DOMINGO: (As Billy Burke) ...You know, he hires some men to hunt Robitaille down, told them to get creative. Chased him through here in the middle of the day. He collapses from exhaustion right near where the old tower in Chestnut used to be. They beat him, tortured him. They cut off his arm and jammed a meat hook in the stump. They smeared honeycomb from the nearby hives on his chest and let the bees sting him. A crowd started to form to watch the show. The big finale - they set him on fire, and he finally dies. But a story like that, a pain like that, lasts forever. That's Candyman.
MOSLEY: That was a scene from the 2021 film "Candyman," directed by my guest today, Nia DaCosta. What was it about the original "Candyman" and specifically about what you could bring to it that made you know you wanted to direct it?
DACOSTA: Oh, I mean, I think that movie came out when I was quite young. But when I was in middle school, it was very much a part of our, you know, bathroom shenanigans. (Laughter) It was Bloody Mary, and it was Candyman. And because it happened in the projects - I grew up in Harlem, and the projects, you know, I live across street from the projects - the high rises were over on 148th Street. Like, that's where I imagined these things happening. So I didn't feel like it was in a movie or far away. And so it was just such a part of my childhood and part of my lure that horrified me (laughter) when I was younger. But I loved what Jordan wanted to do. He really wanted to expand it, to turn it on its head. And that exploration of how to do that was really exciting.
And I thought I had a point of view on it as someone who, you know, lives in America and remembers - not just, you know, the "Candyman" legend, but also, you know, I remember when Amadou Diallo was shot 50 times by the cops in New York, that was my first time understanding what it was to be Black in America. That was when I was like, Oh, OK. So I think also holding that and holding all of the people who become martyrs and sort of emblems of our pain and our systemic oppression is why it was really important to me to balance all these things properly, you know - the horror and the thrills, but also the real pain that we're talking about.
MOSLEY: I also want to talk with you about your aesthetic because I'm starting to see it. Like, with every movie, it becomes clear. There's a moment in "Candyman" - actually, there's several. And actually, in "Hedda" as well, where you are holding on to these long, unbroken shots. So we're locked into the character. We're moving through space, and you just don't cut it. There's, like, no tight, medium wide shots of these different spaces. Where does that come from? What are you trying to make us feel when you are refusing to cut away?
DACOSTA: Yeah, I think it's just really great for pretension and building anticipation. You know, why aren't we cutting? What's going to happen? Why am I sitting here on this shot? I think it makes the audience lean in. I think sometimes when you cut too much, viewing a film can become something of a passive experience where I'm literally telling you, look here, look here, look here, look here, do this, feel this. But what I really want is for you to feel the things I want you to feel but because you are participating in a way, you're actively looking at the frame, and you're like, OK what am I looking for, in a way, especially when it's a wide shot and we're holding on a wide. And then I just think it's great to just get out of the way of the actors, sometimes, you know, just really trust and be confident in what they're doing and that they can hold the attention of the audience.
MOSLEY: "Candyman" opened at No. 1, and it made you - as I mentioned before - the first Black woman to debut at No. 1 at the box office. Do those titles like, first Black woman or youngest director in the case of "The Marvels" movie, do those titles mean anything to you?
DACOSTA: Oh, man. It's so interesting because so much of what I love about this is the process of doing it. And that being said, it was pretty amazing. I was like, oh, I didn't know any of these things, actually. Like, I think I was in an interview when a journalist told me I was the youngest Marvel director. And I had no idea I was going to be the first Black woman with a No. 1 film. Absolutely no idea. I was kind of dumbfounded by that because, to me, you know, I grew up with Kasi Lemmons and Gina Prince-Bythewood making films. And, you know, I was in college when Ava was making her films, and...
MOSLEY: Ava DuVernay, yeah.
DACOSTA: Ava DuVernay, yeah. And so I'm - I thought it was Ava or Gina. I was like, me? (laughter) And so it was kind of amazing. And, of course, I'm so proud of it. And then I think, wow, we got a ways to go, guys. But I love what the landscape is doing right now.
MOSLEY: There's a shift.
DACOSTA: Yeah. And I felt that when I was - like, when I was making my first films, I really felt, oh, I think they're actually opening the door to us right now. So I better run through it before it closes.
MOSLEY: Is that what it is? Because it does - when I look at your career, it almost feels like a sprint. It's like, you're not just walking upstairs. You're like sprinting up the stairs (laughter).
DACOSTA: Yeah, and now I'm at the top, huffing and puffing. Like, OK, time to take a little break before I...
(LAUGHTER)
DACOSTA: ...I go up the rest of these flights. I think so. I think I have this feeling of having to prove myself. And also, like, speaking of freedom, like, I really wanted to feel as though I had the freedom to make the kinds of projects I wanted to make. And I thought, OK, how do I build a career that facilitates that? And part of that was knowing, OK, I need to not get type cast as just a Indie drama director. I need to also pursue these other genres that I love, like horror, like comic book movies. You know, I really wanted to do those things, not just because I love them, but because I also was thinking, like, about how to build a career that sustained and that could eventually allow me to make original films that were bigger scale. So yeah, I definitely have this feeling of, like, I don't know how long this will last, so let me make sure that I make the most of it.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Nia DaCosta. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF HILDUR GUONADOTTIR SONG, "STOLEN TALE - PREPPING THE PARTY")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and we're continuing our conversation with director Nia DaCosta about her new film "Hedda," which is in select theaters and premieres today on Prime Video. It's a reimagining of the Henrik Ibsen classic, exploring themes of manipulation, desire and suffocation in a woman's life. The film reunites DaCosta with actress Tessa Thompson, who starred in her debut feature "Little Woods." DaCosta made history as the first Black female director to debut at No. 1 at the box office for her 2021 horror film "Candyman," which she co-wrote with Jordan Peele.
So, yeah, you went from "Candyman" to "The Marvels," which is this massive Marvel movie. And I heard that when you pitched for it, you wrote that it's a story about sisters. And that stuck with me because that's not what people think about when we think about a superhero movie. How did you hold on to that emotional core when you're also dealing with, I don't know, you know, CGI sequences and...
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Intergalactic battles?
DACOSTA: I mean, the great thing about making a Marvel film is, like, the relationship between the amount of work and how huge the movie is is directly proportionate to how much help you get. And so, you know, the first thing they tell you to do is they're like, call the other directors. They'll tell you what it's like. So I did that. But then you also have, like, an amazing crew. Like, everyone wants to make a Marvel film, so you get, like, the best of the best helping you through the experience. And that includes, you know, my executive.
Every film has an exec, and mine was Mary Livanos. And she helped me to make sure that the emotional core of the film, these three women and how they develop and relate to each other and how the relationships change and shift could stay prominent. So it was one, me, like, really believing in it and also just having the help that I needed to bring it all to life.
MOSLEY: OK, Nia, I want to go back to where it all started for you as a filmmaker. I know it started as a child, very young. But I want to talk about your idols. So...
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: A lot of filmmakers who make their mark in the 1970s - Scorsese, Coppola, Spielberg - they're all folks that you talk about quite a bit. And these are guys you believe could do anything with a camera.
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: But you're not a guy, and it's not 1970s. What is it about their particular brand of filmmaking that speaks to you?
DACOSTA: Yeah. That was, like, the age of the new American cinema. And I just - I mean, the audacity of it all was - is, for me, what I - that I really responded to. I mean, I remember the first time I saw "Apocalypse Now," I was like, what do you mean? Like, what - you recreated this, and it's a brilliant film, but it's also, like, this managed chaos. And I was just so in awe of it. And I think, also with "Apocalypse Now," actually, I was - the reason why I watched it was because I was studying Joseph Conrad's "Heart Of Darkness" in AP English.
And my teacher said, oh, there's an adaptation of it - a loose adaptation called "Apocalypse Now," and we happen to have it in my dorm 'cause I was at boarding school at the time. And actually, now that I think about it, I wonder if that's why I'm so loosey-goosey with adaptation and feeling I can do anything because, you know, that's from the heart of Africa to the Vietnam War, that transliteration was very - it's a very different world that he his adaptation in. So, yeah, it really made me feel brave, watching those men be audacious. And I didn't really think about their maleness, their whiteness, you know, their privilege. I was just like, oh, movies. Great. And because, at the same time, I was watching Kasi Lemmons' film, watching "Eve's Bayou, " "Love & Basketball." And so I took for granted that I could make movies, too.
MOSLEY: You went into college knowing what you wanted to do.
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Do you remember when you - when the seed was planted in your mind that you could be a filmmaker? And then the choice that I am going to be a filmmaker, even aside from just all of those great films that you watched?
DACOSTA: Yeah. I think it was between the ages of 11 and 13, I think. My mom and I were talking a lot about, like, film and what I want to do with my life. And I was always writing, and I was always saying, I'm going to be a writer, I'm going to write some stuff. And my mom was like, yeah, you are. I can see that for sure. And then I got into film, and I thought I wanted to be an actor. I was like, well, I mean, they're the ones you're skiing. You know, they're the ones who you're empathizing with and feeling through. And then my mom said, no, you're too sensitive. I think...
MOSLEY: Wow.
DACOSTA: ...The way - yeah, she said, you're too sensitive, babe. The way you want - the way you talk about this, the way you talk about film and the way you are, I think you want to be a director. I didn't know she was saying. I was a tyrant.
(LAUGHTER)
DACOSTA: But I was like, oh, yeah. I think my mom's right. But now I have this word director, and then I can ask myself, what is a director? What does that mean? And that sent me down the rabbit hole. And, you know, I remember being at NYU, and I would - I'd have, like, OK, Coen Brothers. Let's go. And I'd go to the Fisher Center at Bobst and watch all of the Coen Brothers films. And then I'd go, OK, Ang Lee. I'd watch all of Ang Lee's films and just go down the filmography. And that started because my mom identified for me - oh, I think it's director. I think that's you.
MOSLEY: You worked as a PA not just for Scorsese, but for Steve McQueen, Steven Soderbergh. These are directors with completely different styles.
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Take me back to those sets. What were you noticing? What were you absorbing? Is there a throughline that you saw with all of them, even though they're all different?
DACOSTA: Yeah. I mean, I was a production office PA. And so my - a lot of my time, which was good because I would write my scripts and - at my desk.
MOSLEY: Oh, and during your time.
DACOSTA: Yeah, you know. But when I got to go to set, it was really awesome to watch them run the set. And they're all very different people. And - but what I learned was everything comes from the top, because even in the production office, you feel the difference because of how the director is running the set.
You know, when I was working on "The Knick," which is the Steven Soderbergh TV show, I think a PA got yelled at by someone, and the production manager said, whoa, whoa, whoa. Who yelled at you? We don't do that here. And she went and talked to the person. Like - and that's a Soderbergh thing. It's like, everyone is respected here, and I thought it was so inspiring, how that comes from the top. And then on Steve McQueen's sets, you know, you know, he comes through the production office, and I visit set sometime, and you just see the way he talks to people and the gentleness, but also the sheer honesty with which you communicate. So I was like, ah, noted. And then Scorsese - I mean, jeez that was so amazing for me. That was my first big scripted job, PAing on that show, and...
MOSLEY: Which show was it?
DACOSTA: Oh, it was "Vinyl." I worked on the pilot of "Vinyl," and, you know, it was a whole production. Oh, my goodness. I mean, 24-hour production office, which I have not experienced since I would never ask anyone to do. But I learned there, it's like, those sorts of big, muscular productions. It's like, the rigor of the work, like, the seriousness with which he's pursuing perfection was really inspiring as well - the sheer skill and experience of the people there. It was very Hollywood, I'll say. It was very cool.
MOSLEY: You know, I was thinking all of those guys, something that's common for all of them that they all share is they are uncompromising.
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Like, they will fight with the studios to protect their vision. And I'm so curious about what this looks like for you. And what types of considerations have you had to make, or you just decided I'm going to bypass that and stand in my power?
DACOSTA: I think a big thing for me has been I was educated in a - in many predominantly white institutions. And you learn what being a Black woman does to the sound of your voice, to how much presence you have in a room. You know, you learn pretty quickly what it means to other people and how that changes who - like, not who you are, but how you're perceived. And how you're perceived changes perhaps how you will approach compromise, for example, or being uncompromising. That has been very helpful because Hollywood is a predominantly white space.
And, I mean, as - in general, I'm a person who's just, like, quite kind and really just wants everyone to have a good time and get along. And I'm also very honest. I don't really have a poker face. So I've always just been like, kind honesty will get you through. But as I've gotten older and as I've become more confident, sometimes it's a hard, no, I'm not doing that. Or, guess what? I'm doing this. And actually, even though I know that perhaps you'll perceive that as more aggressive because I'm a Black woman, I'm OK with that. Now I'm OK with that, though - it's gotten better as I've gotten older, but it is, as a Black woman, like, being audacious, having the audacity as a Black woman. Frankly, you have to have more to do what we do.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Nia DaCosta. We're talking about her new film, "Hedda," a provocative reimagining of Henrik Ibsen's classic play "Hedda Gabler." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF LAURA KARPMAN'S "SURGE")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today, I'm talking to director Nia DaCosta about her latest film, "Hedda," starring Tessa Thompson. The film is a modern, queer adaptation of Henrik Ibsen's 1891 play set over one charged night in a 1950s English manor house party. DaCosta made history as the first Black female director to debut at No. 1 at the box office for her 2021 horror film "Candyman," which she co-wrote with Jordan Peele.
You went to public school in Harlem for a short period of time, right?
DACOSTA: I did, yeah.
MOSLEY: And then you made the switch to private school, then to boarding school. Those are huge shifts.
DACOSTA: Yeah. Going to boarding school in the middle of nowhere in Connecticut, in the heart of, like, WASP country, was very - it's a very specific place, and I wasn't fully prepared for the lack of diversity. Like, I wasn't - I'd - like, I totally took for granted what a gift New York City is. And all its imperfections and all its craziness, I really took for granted. Like - 'cause not just in terms of race, but also in terms of, like, socioeconomics. Like, I went to public school with the rich kids and poor kids and everything in between because it's New York City.
So, you know, going to boarding school - it was like a whole other ecosystem that I had to learn, and it was a rough ride my first year. I was like, what is happening? I don't understand these people. Who am I? Who do they expect me to be? And it really shaped me moving forward, actually. It really - like, trying to protect myself and my feelings was something that I really had to figure out how to do, you know, moving forward. But then, eventually, again, I kind of matured. And then it was like, OK, I'm just going to be myself, I think. I think that might be the way forward.
MOSLEY: Is there a particular moment that first year in boarding school - a time in school in general where you really learned that lesson of, like, oh, I'm trying to be this thing, but I just need to be myself?
DACOSTA: Yeah. I think someone said to me, I don't know where you come from, but, you know, we don't do that here. And I was like, oh. Like, you cannot - there is no conformity for me because I'm Black. Like, you know? Like, it doesn't matter if you wear, like, the Birkenstocks and the - and the fleeces and, you know, have a Juicy Tube. Like, you're always - you know, you're always going to be Black. And in a way, that's absolutely freeing. You're like, oh, great. OK. Well, if this doesn't matter to you, then I'm not going to do it either. Like, you know, I'm not going to, like, get a weave right now. I'm just keeping my braids, you know? Like, it's...
(LAUGHTER)
DACOSTA: It's really freeing. And then also - and then this - the - again, owning your authority. Like, owning your space. I mean, I learned that over years. But, yeah. I mean, I went to boarding school, I think - how old? I think I was 12 my first year and turned 13, so I was really young. And I really wanted to fit in, and I really was still also grappling with what it meant to be Black.
Like, I remember my mom trying to talk to me about shopping while Black, and I was like, Mom, what are you talking about? I was like, what are you - what is that? I was like - I just, like, didn't want to hear it. And she's like - and she'd be like - you know, if I was reading, like, Elle magazine, she'd also give me an Essence. She just wanted me to know, like - she was trying to tell me, like, the world's going to tell you some lies about yourself, and I want you to not believe them. And I - being young, I was, like, trying to figure out how to be a person, let alone, like, get all this extra information. And she really - and I credit her so much for this. She really just - she just knew what it would be like, and especially going away to school, like, which she really wanted me to do, too, 'cause my mom is huge in education. And I really got that from her.
MOSLEY: Your mother, Charmaine DaCosta - she was in the girl group Worl-A-Girl. They were a reggae group that did the Jamaica bobsled chant for the movie "Cool Runnings," which...
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Came out in 1993. And I actually want to play a little bit of it 'cause...
DACOSTA: Yay.
MOSLEY: ...I think that everybody kind of knows this once they hear it. Let's listen to a little bit.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "JAMAICAN BOBSLEDDING CHANT")
WORL-A-GIRL: (Vocalizing).
(Chanting) Go. Go. Go.
Love to all Jamaicans. Big up the ice scene (ph). I know when the bobsled team this year, me come fi running (ph). Worl-A-Girl say so. Seh wha (ph)?
(Singing) Lahs (ph), enough people can't believe Jamaica have a bobsled team. Woi (ph), enough people can't believe Jamaica have a bobsled team.
(Singing) Sometimes in life, there's disappointment. We've got to keep on working for our goals.
We have to work hard, man.
(Singing) You know you can achieve whatever you believe. Keep your eyes on the prize. Take it a little higher.
(Singing) Lahs, enough people can't believe Jamaica have a bobsled team. Woi, enough people can't believe Jamaica have a bobsled team.
Seh wha?
(Singing) You have be fast.
MOSLEY: That was the reggae group Worl-A-Girl singing "The Jamaica Bobsled Chant," which was written and performed by my guest today's mother, Charmaine DaCosta. You had to be around 3 or 4 when that came out.
DACOSTA: Oh, my gosh. I loved hearing that. I mean, I remember meeting Doug E. Doug, and I remember...
MOSLEY: Oh (laughter).
DACOSTA: ...Like, my mom - like, Shaggy used to, like, watch me when they performed together. Like, you know, that was, like, my childhood. Like, and I was - like, being on their music video sets and being in the studio with my mom. And then my mom would go on tour for - you know, for some stretches of time. So crazy. Like, I (laughter) - oh, so fun. I love it so much.
MOSLEY: Your mom, she's a powerhouse in her own right. She's also been a gospel singer.
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: She has a juice business. How did watching her navigate all these different chapters shape or help you think about your own career?
DACOSTA: Oh, man. I mean, my mom is someone who's had so many lives, it feels like. And she's so fiercely intelligent, and she also - I really feel I can do anything. And she always said to me, like, I'll support you, whatever you want to do. But I think she valued, one, education, but also ambition. And when I wanted to be an artist, I remember her saying, you know, you just need to know that it's going to be tough, and you're going to be broke, and you're going to be like, why am I doing this to myself? But if you love it, it's worth it, and the money will come. And I really believed that. You know, I - and she was right. 'Cause, you know, we're not well off, you know, and there was no - there's no backup plan for me in terms of - you know, if I don't make rent, it's like, I don't make rent. There's no one I can go and say, can you give me money, you know? But my mom prepared me for that life. She was like - and watching her live it, watching her success, the modicum of success she had with her career in the '90s. And also the way she operated, like, the joy with which my mom pursued her art. Like, I - she's happiest when she's singing. And I've seen that. It made me feel how important it is for me to do the same.
MOSLEY: You know, I've been wondering - your mom says to you, the world is your oyster, but yet you didn't grow up with a lot of money.
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Your mom went into a lot of debt to send you to these really great schools.
DACOSTA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: And so there are these two things that exist together, like follow your dreams, but there wasn't, like, just this clear road to success. So how...
DACOSTA: No.
MOSLEY: ...Did you hold those two things together as a young person?
DACOSTA: I think the lesson I got from all that was follow your dreams, but it costs you something. You know, it's work, and it's hard, and you have to love it. I mean, they say that your first day in film school, but, you know, for me, I mean, I also - you know, I've seen my mom go from, you know, signed to Island Def Jam and touring a lot to not being able to make a living singing, which she was able to do when I was really young. So I also knew that that was something that could happen, that you could, you know, go from being at the top of the world to - 'cause my mom, you know, she also worked in "30 Rock." She worked as an executive assistant at GE. And so, you know, I saw when the life changes and how you have to make space for your passions when it is no longer your vocation. But my mom, she just - her spirit is so beautiful. I think she just - she really believes in pursuing it, no matter what. Because I think her ethos is sort of like, you have a plan B, but that's what you do when you fail. That isn't - that's not what you do without trying.
MOSLEY: When she worked at "30 Rock," did you ever visit or have a chance to visit?
DACOSTA: Oh, my God. I was there all the time. I mean, also, like, single mom. I was just, like, booping around the office like, hey.
(LAUGHTER)
DACOSTA: And, you know, I remember bring-your-daughters-to-work day. It was so fun 'cause, as you can imagine, "30 Rock" - like, everything gets shot there. We had, like - they did, like - you know, of course, I did horror makeup. They did, like, a makeup thing, and you can get, like, a wound or something on your head, and I got, like, a wound on my forehead and walked around with my mom.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
DACOSTA: And people were like, is she OK? My mom's like, she's fine. But also, like, even that, like, another parent might have said, like, OK, take that off your head. We're going outside. My mom just let me be a weirdo. Like, she really just let me, (laughter) you know, be a little freak, and she didn't stamp out my voice. If anything, the times when she tried to, like, shift or correct me was when she - it was about my safety.
MOSLEY: Nia DaCosta, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.
DACOSTA: Thank you so much, Tonya, for having me.
MOSLEY: Nia DaCosta's new film is called "Hedda." It's in theaters and also streaming on Amazon Prime Video. After a short break, jazz critic Martin Johnson reviews the new album from Linda May Han Oh. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MARY LOU WILLIAMS' "A GRAND NIGHT FOR SWINGING")
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. Bassist and composer Linda May Han Oh took the fast track to jazz prominence, quickly emerging on the scene in the 2000s and becoming the bass player in bands led by Pat Metheny and Vijay Iyer. But on her latest recording, "Strange Heavens," she's inviting listeners to look back at her early work. "Strange Heavens" features an unusual trio - bass, drums and trumpet - just like her debut recording in 2009. Jazz critic Martin Johnson says that there's significant insight in the comparison.
(SOUNDBITE OF LINDA MAY HAN OH'S "PORTAL (FEAT. AMBROSE AKINMUSIRE AND TYSHAWN SOREY)")
MARTIN JOHNSON: Linda May Han Oh's album "Entry" was one of the most intriguing recordings of 2009. The lineup was both austere and feisty, and it was for good reason. Oh and her bandmates, trumpeter Ambrose Akinmusire and drummer Obed Calvaire, were in their 20s and eager to tell the jazz world in no uncertain terms that they belonged. Mission accomplished. Now each has an established academic position, and all three are at the top tier of their profession.
For this recording, Oh convened a new trio featuring Akinmusire and drummer Tyshawn Sorey, who is her colleague in Vijay Iyer's trio. As you could hear on the track we just heard, "Living Proof," they still make assertive music, but it's more relaxed now. Her new band has the convivial air of friends trading triumphs and challenges over drinks or a meal.
(SOUNDBITE OF LINDA MAY HAN OH'S "PORTAL (FEAT. AMBROSE AKINMUSIRE AND TYSHAWN SOREY)")
JOHNSON: The bass has long been regarded as a foundational or a cornerstone instrument, but in Oh's hands, it's nimbler. She can move from setting the beat to dancing with the soloist in the blink of an eye, as she does there on "Portal." Or, as we can hear on "The Sweetest Water," her solos energize the music like an accelerant.
(SOUNDBITE OF LINDA MAY HAN OH'S "THE SWEETEST WATER (FEAT. AMBROSE AKINMUSIRE AND TYSHAWN SOREY)")
JOHNSON: In between Oh's trio recording, she built a reputation as a composer with a broad tonal palette and an appetite for experimental configurations. Her previous recording featured vocalese from Sara Serpa and Mark Turner's reserved approach to saxophone on the front line. And she's written compelling music that honors her Asian heritage and Australian upbringing. This recording also offers an opportunity to contrast trumpeter Akinmusire's development. Much of his work is complex and thematic, but here he lets his hair down and shows his playful side.
(SOUNDBITE OF LINDA MAY HAN OH'S "THE SWEETEST WATER (FEAT. AMBROSE AKINMUSIRE AND TYSHAWN SOREY)")
JOHNSON: By going back to her first setting, a smaller group than her typical band, Linda May Han Oh is presenting an argument that with the right musicians, less is more.
(SOUNDBITE OF LINDA MAY HAN OH'S "NOISE MACHINERY (FEAT. AMBROSE AKINMUSIRE AND TYSHAWN SOREY)")
MOSLEY: Jazz critic Martin Johnson writes for The Wall Street Journal and Downbeat. He reviewed "Strange Heavens," the new album by bassist and composer Linda May Han Oh. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we talk about the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal bureaucracy and expansion of executive power - Russell Vought, the director of the Office of Management and Budget. He's also one of the people behind Project 2025. We'll talk with Andy Kroll about his investigation of Vought for ProPublica and The New Yorker. I hope you can join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF RAY ANDERSON'S "BLUES BRED IN THE BONE")
MOSLEY: To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF RAY ANDERSON'S "BLUES BRED IN THE BONE")
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.