New novels from Elizabeth Strout and 'Pemi Aguda are lonely and enchanting

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. My guest today is filmmaker, rapper and community organizer Boots Riley. His work for the last few decades has circled the same argument - that capitalism produces the contradictions we live with and that art can make them visible. He made that argument as the frontman of the Oakland-based hip-hop group The Coup and in his screenwork with his 2018 film, "Sorry to Bother You," a surreal satire about a Black telemarketer who finds success after he learns to use his white voice. And he's making the argument again in his latest film, "I Love Boosters," which was first a love song he wrote 20 years ago about shoplifters - or boosters, as they're called.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I LOVE BOOSTERS!")

THE COUP: (Rapping) A booster is a person who jacks from the retail and sells it in the hood for dirt-cheap resale. In these hard times, they press on like Lee Nails. In all of my experience, their sex has been female. Back in elementary, my shoes used to rap. Every time my soles would hit the street, they would flap. Then, in high school, Langston Anderson would cap 'cause my jacket didn't have a brand name on the back. Years later, this lady took me to her apartment. It looked like the Macy's sportswear department. Clothes on the chairs, on the couch and the carpet. A twenty had me icy like [expletive] in the Arctic. If it wasn't for the hard work of a booster, most couldn't go to the clubs that we're used to. If you don't get the dress code, they'll boot you, like people who get dressed up won't shoot you.

MOSLEY: "I Love Boosters" the film stars Keke Palmer as the leader of a crew of women shoplifters in the Bay Area who steal from luxury fashion stores and sell the goods cheap to people who can't afford retail. Demi Moore plays the fashion designer whose stores they're robbing from, and LaKeith Stanfield plays a figure who threatens the whole operation. As you heard, before Riley made films, he made music. The Coup released their first album, "Kill My Landlord," in 1993. Before that, he was a labor and community organizer, a UPS worker and a telemarketer, a job that would eventually become the subject of "Sorry To Bother You."

Boots Riley, welcome back to FRESH AIR.

BOOTS RILEY: Thanks. Thanks for having me.

MOSLEY: You know, I have watched "I Love Boosters" twice. And both times, I was thinking, what does Boots know about boosters?

RILEY: Well, I have been a broke rapper for a long time, having to stay fly. You know, it's just a job requirement. And so I've definitely had to deal with a lot of boosters. When I wrote that song 20 years ago, it was a lifetime of experience. So - and also just saw how much of a service it provided a community whose - in my case, the Black community. I don't think they only exist in the Black community - a community whose style is inspiring these things that are costing more than people can afford with the income that they have.

MOSLEY: That is the interesting - it's not an inversion, but it is the thing that we sit with as the audience because we are living this world through the boosters themselves. And so we're able to see from the inside how they're interpreted from the outside and what's really happening. But, you know, that term, boosters - I had never heard that before.

RILEY: Oh, really?

MOSLEY: I think I heard, like, OK, in Detroit, I know somebody with a hookup.

RILEY: OK.

MOSLEY: Or, you know, I know a guy. Yeah.

RILEY: It's funny because online, there's this whole debate about where that term came from. There's people in New York saying, we came up with the term. There's people in - obviously, in the Bay Area saying, we came up with the term. And there's people in Chicago saying, no, no, boosters - we did that and such and such. So there's this whole debate. And, you know, obviously, I came - come from the Bay Area, so I'm going to, you know, shoot shots on that behalf. However, yeah. I think it was all over. So - and definitely, people had different ways of calling it. But, you know...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: I have no idea where it came from. There's somebody that could probably call in...

MOSLEY: Right.

RILEY: ...And tell us...

MOSLEY: Oh, they will.

RILEY: ...The etymology of that. But yeah.

MOSLEY: Exactly. And I obviously am out of the loop. But I want to talk a little bit about what you were saying about the boosters' place and what they - how they serve the community. And let's talk about that a little bit through the character Corvette herself...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Who's played by Keke Palmer. And she isn't just a booster. She is a designer.

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: And Christie Smith, the fashion mogul that she admires who's played by Demi Moore, steals one of her designs. And basically, this woman is hailed as a genius, but she's stealing from Black and brown...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Communities.

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: When was the first time you kind of realized that idea that, like, what is being stolen is actually maybe yours in the first place?

RILEY: You know, I think you'd have to back it up to when I was 14 or 15, you know, and I got involved in supporting people who were organizing a cannery workers' strike in Watsonville, California. So I got invited to a youth event...

MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah.

RILEY: ...Based on that. And, you know, they - someone was like, hey. You know, we're going to have this thing. We'll be by on - you know, we'll be by at noon on Saturday. And back then, there's no cell phones. There's no anything, so you could totally ghost somebody a lot easier. And I planned on it. So I was like - I'm just - yeah, come by. I'm not really going to be there. And so - but I forgot about it. And so they came by with a van full of 14-year-old girls.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: And they were like, hey. You want to go to the beach? And I was like, oh, yeah. I definitely want to go to the beach...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: ...With y'all. And they were like, but first, we're going to stop and - stop off and support the Watsonville Cannery workers' strike. And then so that's...

MOSLEY: That's how.

RILEY: ...Kind of how I got hoodwinked into it because I entered the van with, you know, flirtatious goals. And then I met these girls who were, like - they were talking about things that were on the news, world events, these sorts, and things that I purposely was trying to ignore because I didn't have a sense that I could have any effect on it. Right? I didn't have a sense that - like, it didn't matter if I paid attention or not because what am I going to do? These are just things that happen. And they were talking about it, and I realized that they felt that they could have something to do with...

MOSLEY: They had agency.

RILEY: ...What happened.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: Yeah. And that - and it was connected to this cannery workers' strike that we were going to.

MOSLEY: Right.

RILEY: That this was not only about someone trying to get higher wages, but it was about how you might be able to create a movement that has the power to affect those who are in power. And it started, to me, talking - started the conversation about what power actually is under this system. So I went, in that one trip, from wanting to get with these girls to wanting to be them.

MOSLEY: Be them. Yes, to wanting to be them and understanding 'cause...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: They're opening up your world. But you grew up in a household with a father who also...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Was teaching you through his actions, being a - an organizer...

RILEY: And...

MOSLEY: ...Working in Detroit...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...On behalf of the auto workers...

RILEY: And...

MOSLEY: ...And in - yeah.

RILEY: And yeah. But the thing is, is that you don't - one thing that I think was good is my parents didn't, like, say, here - you have to learn this, and blah, blah, blah, 'cause I probably would have later thought of it as their stuff and not mine.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: I don't know if they did that intentionally or that's just how it was. But yeah. They'd have - when I was - when we lived in Detroit - we lived there till I was six - they'd have meetings. But the meetings would always - and I didn't know they were meetings 'cause they would always end in, like, bid whist parties or, like, you know, playing records and dancing. So I just knew people were around sitting on couches, talking to each other, and they end up having fun. So I just thought they were having parties, but it did shape what I thought community was.

MOSLEY: Something you do in this particular film, "I Love Boosters," the news is always there. It's the radio. It's the TV. It is, like...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: But since we're sitting in the world of the boosters, we are the boosters.

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: We are seeing what is just such a short, distorted view of them because we see their whole worlds.

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: When did you start to also understand that - and, you know, I'm super interested in this as a journalist - that, oh, what I am seeing is just a very small part of what is my reality here?

RILEY: Yeah, well, OK. So after the Watsonville Cannery workers strike, then I was helping to organize something called the Anti-Racist Farmworkers Union, and we did all this stuff. And you know...

MOSLEY: And you're what...

RILEY: Fifteen...

MOSLEY: You're 15 still.

RILEY: ...By this time.

MOSLEY: OK.

RILEY: At that point, I'm 15.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: You know, and, you know, they're giving us assignments, like, you know, you guys got to run off the flyers while we're in the fields. You got to make signs. You got to make a skit, you know, all these things. You got to plan the caravan thing. We're doing this door-to-door thing. So it was like, you know - and I was willing to do more because I wasn't where anybody knew me. Like, you know, 15 years old.

MOSLEY: You were outside of your...

RILEY: You're trying to be cool, and you don't want people to see you doing certain things. I would have never, like, walked up to someone and passed them a flyer 'cause maybe they'll think that's nerdy or something like that. I don't know. But I got involved doing all that stuff. So then I get back to school. And one of the first thing - and I'm totally - I'm a revolutionary at that point. I'm a communist by then. And I'm like, OK, so I start using these ideas of how to get people involved. And there was - and a bunch of students and me started this walkout against year-round schools. It's pretty easy to get...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: High schoolers to walk out against the idea of going to school year-round.

MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah.

RILEY: And...

MOSLEY: So you get 2,000 students to walk out.

RILEY: Get 2,000 students to walk out, and, you know, this is very different than what I'm doing 'cause I'm invested. I know everybody, and, you know - so I have the bullhorn. We're in front of the school, and I'm saying things about what we're going to do. The plan is to march down to the school board. And the principal, Mr. O'Leary (ph), he was an ex-cop, buff, like - and walked around, like, in a pose with his arms out so you knew that his biceps were too big for his arms to go at his side.

MOSLEY: I see it.

RILEY: And he walks out there, and he says, Riley, give me that bullhorn. And so I was like, OK. And everybody was like, what are you doing?

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: And as I was handing it to him and trying to take it back, like, a good 15 or 20 students come and help me to try to pull it from him. And we eventually get the bullhorn back from him. But this guy, Navin (ph), it cuts his arm. And it splurts out onto O'Leary's shirt.

MOSLEY: Wow.

RILEY: Right. And we all march down to the - we all marched down. They were so - this is the '80s. This is '86. And so, in my lifetime, my conscious lifetime, I had never seen anything like that. But I think it scared the school board to where as soon as we got there, they came out and announced they were reversing their decision.

MOSLEY: Wow.

RILEY: So we were drunk with power. Basically, we were like, what? It's this easy?

MOSLEY: Right, right.

RILEY: Right. And the next day was the first time I ever saw a color picture on the cover of the Oakland Tribune.

MOSLEY: And what was it?

RILEY: There was a color picture of Principal O'Leary...

MOSLEY: With blood splattered on him.

RILEY: ...With blood all over him...

MOSLEY: Yep.

RILEY: ...Saying that students attacked Principal O'Leary...

MOSLEY: Wow.

RILEY: ...On the way to, you know? And so that was a quick lesson.

MOSLEY: That was your first real lesson.

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Yes, about that perception there. I was really fascinated by that news component in this film, too, because we see that dynamic about protests all the time, where there's a particular part of the protest that becomes the news story versus the protest itself. In many instances, it's because of the looting. The looting is the thing that we see the most...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...More than anything else.

RILEY: So, also, I want to put this in the context - in the movie, because what you're making is a great point that I think - but what I'm setting up in the movie has to do with when I would be watching TV a lot - I was, like, addicted to TV. And my father would always be like, you know why you think it's interesting, why you think those people's lives are interesting? And he would say, because they're not watching TV, because the reality for many of us is we're spending so much time watching these screens. And so I'm, like, trying - and so for me, what we do see on these screens is a huge part of our life. It's a huge part of what affects us. And so I want that representation on there, not only the interpretation from what happened in real life to what's happening on the screen, but how we are affected by all these things.

MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. My guest today is filmmaker, rapper and organizer Boots Riley. His new movie is called "I Love Boosters." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and today I am talking with filmmaker, rapper and organizer Boots Riley. His new film, "I Love Boosters," out May 22, is his second feature. The first was "Sorry To Bother You," an indie sensation in 2018.

In 2023, Amazon released his series, "I'm A Virgo," about a 13-foot-tall Black teenager hitting away in Oakland. And long before any of his films, Riley was a labor organizer. He joined the Progressive Labor Party at 15 and led a walkout of 2,000 students at Oakland High. He's still organizing now, most recently with striking writers during the 2023 WGA strike. Riley says his music, his films and his organizing are the same project.

It's interesting about the casting of this film because you've got some real big heavy-hitters. You've got Don Cheadle. You've got Demi Moore, Keke Palmer, who's been around since she was 11. She's been famous.

RILEY: Oh, yeah.

MOSLEY: And...

RILEY: LaKeith Stanfield.

MOSLEY: And LaKeith Stanfield, part of whom you made famous with, you know, "Sorry To Bother You," but he's since gone on and done so many things. And what's interesting is I interviewed Tessa Thompson a little while ago.

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: And she told me the story of how you almost took her out of the cast of "Sorry To Bother You" because she had gotten a Marvel movie, and you felt like she might be too exposed and too well-known.

RILEY: It wasn't just the Marvel movie, to be fair, but yeah.

MOSLEY: But the fact that she...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Was well-known. So what has changed for you in this idea? Because in this film, I mean, you've got all these heavy-hitters.

RILEY: I think maybe just more confidence in myself. Like, I saw with Tessa, like, how we made that a very specific thing. You know what I'm saying? And I was like...

MOSLEY: It worked.

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: And that I can write it in a way that - and we can shape it in a way where it does have its own specificity. And so - and I think maybe I was more reacting to how a lot of movies do. Like, it's the George Clooney - it's George Clooney breaking into banks. It's George Clooney being a sniper. It's George Clooney. And I was like, I don't want the, it's George Clooney doing this thing. I want it to be this character, right? And I think that what I've realized is that even though the star of it all stars, the how big someone is can make people come to a movie for that, then it's my job to make them forget what they know about that person - right? - what they know about that actor. And it's also the actor's job. So I'm picking people that can pull that off.

MOSLEY: Why was Keke the person that had to be Corvette?

RILEY: Oh, I saw how in other movies, they were like, OK, she does this one thing or these two things - a certain cadence. And they were, like, missing this whole other piece of her.

MOSLEY: Of Keke. Yeah.

RILEY: Yeah. And not in all the things they did. This - she's shown herself. That's how I knew it, right? And also, I met with her, and I could see this thing and her willingness to go there, you know? And in the same way that often I'm trying to cast against type, in that way, I saw with this, like, this is a chance to see someone do stuff that they haven't done before and that she has this whole skill set that people were underappreciating.

MOSLEY: You said that you love stories that live inside of a contradiction. And what strikes me about this moment now in your life is you might have the most contradictions of all...

RILEY: (Laughter).

MOSLEY: ...That you are living in this moment.

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: I mean, you have produced a $20 million film. You're inside the system, critiquing the system. But I'd like to know - how are you thinking about that?

RILEY: Yeah. Well, I think that we're all inside the system. I think if I had a job - I've had many jobs at retail. I've had many jobs, you know, doing stuff. I've constructed redwood decks, all sorts of things like that.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: And I'm inside the system. Like, there's no getting out of it until we have a movement that creates a whole different system.

MOSLEY: But in particular, though...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: I mean, when your first movie, "Sorry To Bother You," came out, it was like a breakthrough of, oh, he is really speaking to the system. He's talking truth to power. It's very an anticapitalist movie. But now you're like a - you're entering this seasoned...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Successful role, almost to the point where you are the system. You're...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Part of that.

RILEY: We are. And I think what my films and my music has always said is that we all are the system, and my goal with my art is to instigate class struggle. So the reason that people know about me, for instance, is because of - originally, because of the music and now because of the movies. But from Day 1 with the music, we were on EMI Records, a no-longer-existing corporation. But they were maybe one of the most - owned by a lot of heinous - a multinational corporation with investments all over the place, right? The reason is, is because I want this out on a platform to talk to people who - you know, they're not seeking out alternative things. They're not going to the punk DIY spots.

MOSLEY: So you got to get inside in order to get to the people that you want to talk to.

RILEY: But I wouldn't even put it that way because we're inside already.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: Like, there's no getting out of there. There's no make - even if you make a commune in the woods, by virtue of you not actually changing the way things are, you're living inside capitalism.

MOSLEY: Our guest today is filmmaker, rapper and organizer Boots Riley. His new film is titled "I Love Boosters." I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is Boots Riley. His new film, "I Love Boosters," is a satirical look at a crew of women shoplifters in the Bay Area. Before Riley was a filmmaker, he spent more than two decades fronting the political hip-hop group The Coup, whose albums include "Kill My Landlord", "Steal This Album" and "Party Music." Before he was a rapper, Riley loaded packages onto airplanes for UPS. And before that, he was a teenage labor organizer. He came up alongside radical politics. His father, Walter Riley, is a civil rights and criminal defense attorney in Oakland who organized auto workers in Detroit before going to law school.

I want to talk a little bit about your use of the body in all of your bodies of work. So I'm not spoiling it because "I'm (ph) Sorry To Bother You" has been around for...

RILEY: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Many years. So I can...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Talk about...

RILEY: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...How, like...

RILEY: Yeah. Yeah.

MOSLEY: The workers turn...

RILEY: If you haven't...

MOSLEY: ...Into horses.

RILEY: ...Seen it yet, that's on you.

MOSLEY: Right. Exactly. But in "Sorry To Bother You," the workers turn into horses. In "I'm A Virgo," Cootie is, like, this 13-foot-tall presence in a world that, you know, doesn't make space for him. In "Boosters," I can't talk about - you know, there is a spoiler there. But LaKeith Stanfield's character - it is very much in the body. So every one of your political arguments is something done to a body. So in your films, capitalism doesn't just show up as a system. It also shows up in, like, the very physical manifestation.

RILEY: Yeah. That's interesting. I mean...

MOSLEY: Why is it physical for you? Yeah.

RILEY: Well, I think it might be connected to my work in music, right? No matter how - you know, like, so when I started, when I decided to become a rapper, I was not good at all. I wasn't just not good. I was bad.

MOSLEY: What does that even mean?

RILEY: Not only did I know that...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: ...My friends knew that.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: So it was surprising to them. And...

MOSLEY: And bad in what sense?

RILEY: I was just not good. I had to learn, you know, how to not be corny. I had to learn, you know, all sorts of things. And it is a - you know, it is a skill. It is a talent. It is something that you build and you hone. And only because I was - I came from a disciplined party did I know that I - did I have the philosophy that I could...

MOSLEY: That you could get better.

RILEY: Yeah. That I could just work on it and figure that out.

MOSLEY: Why was...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Rapping the thing you wanted to invest in to get better at?

RILEY: I was - at first, I saw it around me, and so I thought that it was a cool thing to do. But when I solidified - when it solidified that I'm going to do this was we were working in the Double Rock projects in San Francisco. This is '89. And there was a case in which a woman named Rossi Hawkins and her two twin sons got beat down - her two twin 8-year-old sons got beat down by the police. And the neighborhood of Double Rock came out and started charging the police.

And the cops shot in the air, the crowd ran away, and the story that everybody tells, the thing that made everyone turn around, was someone started chanting, fight the power, fight the power. And that was 1989. "Do The Right Thing" - the song from "Do The Right Thing," "Fight The Power" - it was all over the radio. And that was a unifying...

MOSLEY: Message.

RILEY: ...Rallying cry.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: So I started seeing with music and now art in general how it could have that place. So I started doing that. Now, started doing music, taught myself, blah, blah, blah.

MOSLEY: And so.

RILEY: What I learned from music...

MOSLEY: Yes, about the body.

RILEY: Yeah, is - what I learned from music is that it doesn't matter 'cause I got known as a lyricist, right? So it didn't matter how great someone's lyrics were, like, except to a couple, like, rap lyric nerds or whatever, right? It didn't matter. People were like, what does the beat sound like? What does that - how does that beat make me feel?

And a lot of that, for - in a particular way that - it was a visceral thing. Like, that 808, you feel it. The way the music might drop out or something come in, it makes you - it makes your heart pump in a certain way. It makes you feel connected. And so my whole style, even when it's not sticking to the body, is about creating a viscerality through cinema, right? And so it's how the camera moves. It's everything.

And so part of what I'm also doing is making you think about something physical - right? - something like, how do we touch this system? We don't just think about - it's not just these theoretical things because I'm starting my art from a very personal place.

MOSLEY: Right. And sometimes it can get grotesque.

RILEY: Yeah. I...

MOSLEY: It can get grotesque, like in "Sorry To Bother You" when they turn into horses. I mean...

RILEY: Definitely.

MOSLEY: It's a very disturbing...

RILEY: Yeah. Thank you.

MOSLEY: ...Thing to feel.

RILEY: Thank you (laughter).

MOSLEY: And some disturbing things in this movie, too, I will say, but that would spoil it.

RILEY: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: Definitely. So what I want to do is compel people and repel people at the same time, right? I want to have that push and pull. I want people to be able to feel things to know this is made by someone. This is made by hundreds of people.

MOSLEY: Because feeling does what in that way? Yeah.

RILEY: It makes you engage with it in a different way. So let's say a very basic thing. If I'm like, this person is sad, and therefore, we're playing the violins. You know - like, you'll be like, OK, they're sad. And you won't even question it. Like, they're sad, and blah, blah. But you go on automatic. And I don't want people to be on automatic. I want people to be understanding - you know, it's like seeing the brush strokes - right? - in something. Like, it doesn't take you out of the painting to see the brush strokes. It brings you into it more.

And so I want people to think about, engage with this work in a different way. And so that goes from - so the grotesque part is something that I think is connected to, you know, what we might - the horrors that we see and atrocities we see happening in our real life, and how do we get ahold of that? And to do that in the midst of something that is ultimately optimistic.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: When you say ultimately optimistic...

RILEY: I think my - the art that I make is optimistic.

MOSLEY: Is ultimately...

RILEY: And to put that in these - this context is something that makes you think about what's in front of you in a different way. Like, I show the seams and stuff, and that has to do with, I'm trying to make things that are janky and with this beautiful clutter, and it's very inspired to me.

MOSLEY: And you use the term janky, you know, which is typically a negative term. Like, it's janky. It's busted. It's...

RILEY: Yeah. So is punk.

MOSLEY: ...Not good.

RILEY: Punk is a negative term, too.

MOSLEY: But you're not using it that way. So...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: You're not using janky in a negative way?

RILEY: No, I'm like, this is, like, the jankiness of life. And obviously, I'm choosing what's in the frame, and it's very...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: It's very made - right? - and it's heightened. But I want something that makes you think about that jankiness and see the seams and see things so I can say, like, we have - and it's about textures. We have miniatures. We have stop motion. You know, we have all sorts of stuff.

MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker, rapper and organizer Boots Riley. His new film, "I Love Boosters," arrives in theaters on May 22. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF RAY CHARLES' "THE RAY")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And my guest today is Boots Riley. His new film is called "I Love Boosters," out May 22.

You know, Boots, you have talked a lot about your father, and there's so many parallels between you and him. But, you know, we're recording this the day after Mother's Day, and I - had me thinking about your mother because there's something that you said years ago about your late mom that has stuck with me. You said that she put her hopes and dreams aside and that watching her life taught you that many women don't have a chance to realize theirs.

RILEY: I don't remember saying that, but it sounds right (laughter).

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MOSLEY: What can you tell me about your mom?

RILEY: So my mother was born to a Black pre-Beat poet named Lawrence Patterson and a German Jewish mother named Anita Pinner and - in New York. And she was born in the '40s. So just even then being mixed, it wasn't something that is as prevalent as now. And she got pregnant with my sister when she was 15.

MOSLEY: Wow.

RILEY: And kind of was left alone to...

MOSLEY: To care for her?

RILEY: Yeah, yeah. And before that time, she was part of the children's theater workshop that became "Sesame Street."

MOSLEY: How? In what way?

RILEY: She was one of the cast members.

MOSLEY: Really?

RILEY: Yeah, yeah.

MOSLEY: What was her role?

RILEY: I don't know. I just saw a picture, and she told me about it because this would come up all the time, about - 'cause she then had four kids. And so she would sometimes let folks know - not just sometimes, a lot of times - let folks know what she gave...

MOSLEY: She was proud of it.

RILEY: Well, what she gave up.

MOSLEY: Oh.

RILEY: And I didn't find out till after she died she wrote a lot of poetry in - by reading her journals. Don't read your mom's journals after she dies. You'll find a lot about other men and very specific things that you don't want to know about your mom. But (laughter)...

MOSLEY: But you also found out that she was a poet. So you...

RILEY: Yeah. And her mother, also, though, was a poet. Her mother also was involved in theater and was the director of Oakland Ensemble Theatre, 'cause she then later came - even though her mom moved away from her when she was a teenage mother, she came to be like, no, you're going to help me with this. And she moved to Berkeley. That's how she got to the West Coast.

MOSLEY: So your grandmother, your mother's mother, is what introduced you.

RILEY: Yeah, yeah.

MOSLEY: You know, we talk about these stories about the theater in Oakland, that was your maternal grandmother.

RILEY: Yeah, yeah. But it was - it definitely did not make me want to do theater (laughter) because...

MOSLEY: That whole experience, right.

RILEY: Yeah, just, like, in the sense that it was boring old-people stuff. You know, like somebody sitting on the couch arguing with each other. And there was always a slap. Like, I think the actors of a certain age, they always want to slap.

MOSLEY: Right.

RILEY: They'll be like, should they slap me? - you know, something like that.

MOSLEY: That's the action, right.

RILEY: Yeah, or that's, like, the emotional thing.

MOSLEY: One of the things I'll say, Boots, that struck me, though, about that quote that you don't remember that you said about your mom, is that...

RILEY: I mean, it sounds true.

MOSLEY: When did you realize that, though, that, wow, my mom maybe didn't have a fully realized life? Was that something that you were - had the emotional intelligence as a child or was it when you were older?

RILEY: Well, I think, you know, she told us. And also, that was what she was doing later was like, OK, I'm doing this now because I've had this other life, right? She was around artists. She was around musicians. I was around jazz musicians - John Handy. You know, like all...

MOSLEY: Some great ones. Some really - yeah.

RILEY: Yeah, Oliver Johnson. One time she took us to France, and we were with all these jazz musicians who were from Oakland, you know? That was around the same time. I was 15. So I saw all this stuff. At the same time, I did also see, like, oh, these people don't grow up. Like, I had this idea about artists and musicians specifically. Like, there's arrested development compared to...

MOSLEY: The rest of - right. Yeah.

RILEY: ...The rest of whoever I knew, right?

MOSLEY: Oh.

RILEY: And so I was like, I definitely don't want to be a musician.

MOSLEY: 'Cause I want to grow. I want to (inaudible)...

RILEY: Yeah, yeah. I felt like it was just - and it was maybe the particular people she was around, right? So but my point is, is that she wanted to be around the excitement of creating things. And so it took, you know, all of these things about art and music that she was exposing me to and - so there was definitely a huge artistic influence from that and from her whole side of things. But it was, yeah, very much I could see, like, she wasn't making things in the way that she wanted to, you know?

MOSLEY: Maybe not fulfilled.

RILEY: Yeah, yeah.

MOSLEY: Which, it strikes me with "I Love Boosters" that this is a movie about women who are creators and their dreams are happening against a system that won't let them.

RILEY: Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, that story is just so prevalent (laughter) around just people I know. And you're right. You're pointing out some connection that I didn't think about. But I think for the same reason that I wrote the song "I Love Boosters!" I wanted to spend time with those characters, and they seem interesting. The real version of those characters - they still do exist.

MOSLEY: How do you think your radical, 15-year-old self or 25-year-old self would look at yourself today?

RILEY: They'd be like, are you kidding me? You're making "Star Wars" for radical politics? When can I see it?

(LAUGHTER)

MOSLEY: That's how you describe this film, is "Star Wars" for radical politics. You feel like this is the "Star Wars" for radical politics.

RILEY: Yeah, well, I mean, but to be fair, "Star Wars" was supposed to be the "Star Wars" for radical politics. George Lucas - and I've confirmed this with him in person, and you can find him online talking about it - I just want to drop the fact that I have met George Lucas...

MOSLEY: Right.

RILEY: ...Is...

MOSLEY: And that you've had this conversation.

RILEY: ...Is that he originally was supposed to do what became "Apocalypse Now."

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: And after "American Graffiti," he had this hit. He figured he could do whatever he wanted. So it was based on "Heart Of Darkness." So he was doing "Heart Of Darkness" but where the main characters were the Viet Cong.

MOSLEY: Yep.

RILEY: And the person that they were going to get - their version of Kurtz - was someone who had betrayed them and started working with the United States and became evil in that. They were like, it's too radical. You're not going to - you're never going to make this movie. Nobody's going to fund it. And he couldn't get funding. And he was like, how about if I put it in space?

MOSLEY: Yeah. And that is a story that, like, I can see why you hold on to that. And I think that's really interesting. For you, though, I just wonder, you know, that uses, like, space and science fiction and things. And your art is...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Much more on the nose. It's much more...

RILEY: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...On the head. It's much more - it's using metaphor, but it's telling you.

RILEY: Yeah. Here's my thing. I feel like as long as I can keep you - like, so I've just done a tour. Since South by Southwest, I've played this movie 35 times, maybe, and I've sat through it every time. Boisterous laughter - sometimes I'm worried people aren't getting the dialogue because they're laughing over certain parts, and, you know, it's crazy.

So my thing is, in the same way with my music, if I keep you dancing, I got you, right? In this case, all of that stuff - whatever. If I keep you laughing and keep you interested and keep you on the edge of your seat and feeling surprised and engaged, then I have license to do almost anything.

So - but it ends up being a balance because if I'm going to do this thing that says, hey, it's, like, A, B, and C, I have to have something that's still pulling you in. And so that's actually been the thing that I've honed for 30 years. This is my second film, but it's not my second thing.

MOSLEY: Right.

RILEY: And I think what makes the film work is that it just works on a basic level. And then you think about, like, oh, this is what he's saying, but it's very clear what I'm saying.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

RILEY: It's not. It's not, like...

MOSLEY: There's not ambiguous - no.

RILEY: There's no - yeah, yeah, yeah.

MOSLEY: No.

RILEY: And I like art that does that.

MOSLEY: Boots Riley, thank you so much for this film, and thank you for this conversation.

RILEY: Thank you so much for having me.

MOSLEY: Boots Riley's new film is "I Love Boosters." It opens in theaters on May 22. Coming up, book critic Maureen Corrigan reviews two new novels that are worlds apart but united by the bond of loneliness. This is FRESH AIR.

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TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. Our book critic, Maureen Corrigan, says although the main characters in new novels by Nigerian writer 'Pemi Aguda and American writer Elizabeth Strout are worlds apart, they're united by the bond of loneliness. Here's her review.

MAUREEN CORRIGAN, BYLINE: In "Beloved," Toni Morrison writes of a kind of loneliness that is wrapped tight like skin. I don't think Morrison's taut simile has been topped, but two new novels attest to the inexhaustibility of language to describe a state we all unwillingly experience. Peek at the multiple categories that 'Pemi Aguda's debut novel, "One Leg On Earth," is shelved under, and you'll start to understand how distinctive her writing is. Amazon, for instance, sells the book under horror, occult and supernatural, city life and literary fiction. It's all those and more.

Aguda's shy main character is a 23-year-old Nigerian college graduate named Yosoye. A communications major, she feels lucky to have been assigned to an architectural firm in Lagos for her year of national service. Determined to shuck off what she thinks of as her inward tilt, Yosoye walks into a local joint shortly after moving into her one-room apartment. She convinces herself to sit down and order a beer. And when a man approaches, she goes off to a cheap motel with him and has sex. Then she discovers she's pregnant.

In addition to all the mundane reasons why this pregnancy comes at a less-than-ideal time for Yosoye, there's also something weird happening in Lagos. Pregnant women have been walking into the ocean, jumping into lagoons and drowning themselves. Some force compels them to be one with water.

Aguda has linked motherhood and the supernatural before in her 2024 short story collection "Ghostroots," which was a finalist for the National Book Award. Here, it's not only the mass suicides that render Yosoye's Lagos sinister. It's also the locale of the building project where she works, churning out promotional materials.

Omi City will be a preserve of the wealthy, built on a peninsula reclaimed from the ocean. Right now, though, it's just miles of empty sand occupied only by the architectural firm's rough headquarters. The self-important employees there barely acknowledge Yosoye's existence. Her lifelong loneliness motivates Yosoye to keep the pregnancy. Here's her thinking.

(Reading) An outline. That's what Yosoye had always felt like - a hollow outline of a person moving through space. It explained why people looked at her and looked away. An outline had no mass, no grounding force. This baby was now a dark little spot inside that outline. Yosoye felt its weight. As it grew, she would be shaded in until she became a real person.

Through uncanny language and images, Aguda enchants her readers into an intimate connection with Yosoye.

Talk about enchantment. Every time Elizabeth Strout brings out a new novel - which is often - I think to myself, she can't pull off another great book again. And then she does. Strout's signature subjects of loneliness and class humiliation reappear in "The Things We Never Say." Although Lucy Barton, a mainstay of her recent books, is absent. Instead, we meet someone new. Artie Dam is a 57-year-old high school history teacher - the kind of teacher who genuinely cares about his students and changes some of their lives.

That said, Artie finds himself leading a secret life of sadness. He even contemplates suicide. A puzzling separation from his beloved adult son is one cause, but there's also Artie's low-level feeling of isolation. For instance, arriving home after a cocktail party, Artie says to his wife, Evie, I wonder why people never said anything real.

Evie, a therapist, dismissively tells him not to be an idiot. We're told that Artie, as he walked to the closet with their coats, felt a dismalness returned to him.

There's a major secret revealed in the course of this story, and Artie's special area of interest - American Civil War history - allows the novel to make some profound commentary about our own contemporary civil wars. But Strout readers know her most overwhelming epiphanies sneak up in throwaway moments, fragmented short paragraphs. I'll leave you with one of those paragraphs, courtesy of Strout's omniscient narrator.

(Reading) So blind we humans are - so blind. To each other and to ourselves, moving through life as though through shadows, putting out a hand in the dark and thinking we have touched someone. And maybe we have, but mostly we travel through life unsighted, grasping only the smallest details of one another's selves, including our own, thinking all the while that we can see.

MOSLEY: Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed two novels by 'Pemi Aguda and Elizabeth Strout.

Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, as President Trump heads to Beijing for his summit with Xi Jinping, we speak with China expert and former national security official Rush Doshi. He says events of the past year show that China now faces the U.S. as a true peer as they square off over trade and tariffs, the Iran conflict and the future of Taiwan. I hope you can join us.

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MOSLEY: To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.

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