'Muppets Now' Proves: It's Not Easy To Capture The Old Muppet Magic

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross.

Regis Philbin, the popular TV talk show host and personality whose career spanned more than 50 years, died of a heart attack last Friday at age 88. He's credited by the Guinness Book of World Records as clocking more hours on camera than anyone else in the history of television. He gained fame as Joey Bishop's talk show sidekick in the '60s, then co-hosted a live syndicated morning talk show for 23 years opposite, first, Kathie Lee Gifford, then Kelly Ripa. And in 1999, while still hosting his morning talk show, Regis Philbin almost single-handedly propelled ABC into first place by hosting the prime-time U.S. version of a hit British quiz show, "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire"

At a time when many talk shows were going through a mean phase, Regis Philbin went high while they went low. He was a natural conversationalist and broadcaster, like Jack Paar, Tom Snyder and David Letterman, whose CBS "Late Show" had Regis on as a guest 125 times. In 2011, Regis published his memoir, "How I Got This Way," just as he was stepping down from "Live With Regis And Kelly." I spoke with Regis Philbin during his final week of those shows that year about his farewell episodes, his new book and what might come next.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

BIANCULLI: Regis Philbin, welcome to FRESH AIR.

REGIS PHILBIN: Thank you very much, David. Happy to be here.

BIANCULLI: Your book, "How I Got This Way" is a great way for me to get into talking about your career because you go through it chapter by chapter, but just by linking it to personalities or influences or inspirations along the way.

PHILBIN: Right.

BIANCULLI: And it surprises me how honest you are and sometimes self-deprecating, not in a calculated way but in really saying how it is you felt, whether you were hanging with a celebrity and wondering whether you were really accepted by that celebrity or even dealing with your parents. Did you go in there just saying, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it that honestly?

PHILBIN: Well, I wanted people to know where I came from and what my feelings were, as I grew up and how I missed so many opportunities along the way to do what I wanted to do because I didn't have the confidence to even tell myself - much less anybody else - yes, this is the business I wanted to be a part of.

And, finally, at the conclusion of my naval service - because I befriended a couple of older Marine majors who had been through World War II and through the Korea War and were tough guys, and I would - in our conversations, I would tell them, you know, how I've wanted to do this, but I couldn't do it. On the very last day that I left, this one major, you know, came in to shake my hand and say goodbye and ask me what I'm going to do with my life. And I told him, what I'd like to do is go into television, but I don't know what - if I have any talent or what I could do.

BIANCULLI: (Laughter).

PHILBIN: And then he boomed at me - do you want this? And I snapped to and gave him a salute and said, for the first time, yes. Yes, I want this. Then get in your car and go up to Hollywood and make it happen. And that's what I did, and that's how I got my first job that was offered me on the West Coast.

BIANCULLI: And before you decided to take that advice and head down to try and make it in terms of television, you reveal something in this book that, to me, was such a touching story, where you're graduating at Notre Dame and you set up this thing to impress your parents and reveal to them your secret ambition.

PHILBIN: (Laughter).

BIANCULLI: And it's based on loving Bing Crosby and wanting to be an entertainer and a singer. And so you got a rehearsal pianist and a little thing and went straight from graduation, I guess with the cap and gown still on and marching your parents in.

PHILBIN: (Laughter).

BIANCULLI: Was it that sort of a thing?

PHILBIN: Well, you're very, very close. Yes. You know, I had promised them all through high school and college - because they were dying to know, what business are you going to go in? What are you going to do with your life?

And the only thing that I liked very much was the sound of Bing Crosby's voice, who I used to listen to when I was in my - you know, 6, 7 years of age, and the radio was on in my little kitchen in the Bronx. And at 9:30 at night, on WNEW, I would hear this voice singing to me, and he had such a clear and pure and friendly voice that I became an enamored of this guy. He became my friend. And even though I was in the Bronx and he was in Hollywood, I would still see him every night - or at least hear him - every night at 9:30. And that's the guy I wanted to be.

Of course, I never had a singing lesson. I was totally unprepared for anything. But two weeks before I graduated, with my parents coming out to see the graduation at Notre Dame, I discovered that one of the guys I hung around with for four years could play the piano. And I said, I can't believe you can play the - do you know the song "Pennies From Heaven?" Which was one of Crosby's great songs, which as a kid I used to sing to myself. Yeah, of course, I do. And then my parents drove from New York. When they got out of the car, I said, don't say a word, Mom; we're going - I'm going to tell you what I want to do.

So I walked them through the campus. And Gus was waiting at the piano. And we entered the music hall, and I went down to the room I knew he'd be in. I opened the door, gave him a cue, and I sang "Pennies From Heaven" to them. It was ludicrous. I know it broke their hearts. It was - I knew I was wrong from the first note I hit, but I continued to sing the song because I had no place to hide.

BIANCULLI: (Laughter) Well, that's what I love about...

PHILBIN: It was terrible, David.

BIANCULLI: Well, what I love about - the writing is so revealing of your personality that you knew right from the start that this was, literally, not what they wanted to hear.

PHILBIN: Absolutely.

BIANCULLI: We're talking with Regis Philbin, who's listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as the person who has starred on more hours of TV than anyone else, period.

You say in the book that you paid close attention to Jack Paar, and that's where, with his monologue, you recognized what it is you wanted to do. But, you know, here's what I don't understand. Recognizing that Jack Paar is really good at talking extemporaneously on television about his life and being entertaining - it's one thing to recognize it; you know, it's a completely different thing to be able to duplicate it.

PHILBIN: Well, you want to know something, David? You expressed that beautifully. You're absolutely right. But the fascinating thing is that that's exactly what I would do on the street corners of the Bronx. I would recreate maybe a ballgame we played at Bronx Park that afternoon and who made a mistake and who - you know, and it was always very funny. And so I remembered that, and I wished I could do that on TV instead of reading somebody's jokes, which I could never do. By then, I had seen Jack Paar do something that gave me the confidence that I also could do. It wasn't a matter of duplicating Paar; it was doing my version of it.

And I can't tell you how many times I said that to Jack Paar. Jack, you were the one that told me what to do with whatever talent, if you have to call it that, that I had. And he wouldn't hear it, of course, 'cause he was a great fan of television, and he couldn't get over the fact that - well, by that time, I had a co-host, and he couldn't get over the fact that we were working with each other, not knowing where we were going with that first 20 minutes. But that's the way I wanted to do it because I felt that was the best way I could do it.

BIANCULLI: Your big...

PHILBIN: I hope I answered your question. I don't even know.

BIANCULLI: Oh, you did perfectly.

PHILBIN: Your question was better than my answer.

BIANCULLI: No, no, no.

PHILBIN: I don't like that, David.

BIANCULLI: You're fine.

PHILBIN: All right.

BIANCULLI: We're up to Joey Bishop now. And this is where a lot people first learned about you and saw you nationwide was as Joey Bishop's announcer sidekick.

PHILBIN: Right.

BIANCULLI: And he called you a good listener as your major talent. But the thing about the book that I did not know - it's one of the most famous episodes of the first round of TV late night wars where you walk off and sort of...

PHILBIN: That's true.

BIANCULLI: ...Leave the show. It was after Jack Paar had famously done it for a few months, objecting to censorship on his program. But this is the first time - decades after it happened - that I've learned that Joey Bishop convinced you to do it as sort of a ratings stunt because Johnny Carson was coming to town.

PHILBIN: Well, that's exactly what happened. And frankly, this is the first time I've admitted that to anyone. I didn't want to tar Joey's name in any way. He was the one that - frankly, you made a little joke of it at the beginning, and yes, he was the one who - he had watched me do an interview with Joe Pyne. And he was looking for...

BIANCULLI: (Laughter) Oh, man.

PHILBIN: ...A second banana. Yeah, Joe Pyne.

BIANCULLI: Yeah, those people who know Joe Pyne. Yeah.

PHILBIN: No, they don't know him. No one knows Joe Pyne anymore, but he was the toughest of all the radio guys in the world. And that's in the book, too. But anyway, Joey heard that interview, and I went to him. And as I walked in the door, he said, I saw you last night. You got a lot of talent. I said, wait a minute. This is the answer to my question all my life. What is my talent? And so he thought for a long time, and I mean a long time. And it was embarrassing because I had come in and put him on the defensive with a question instead of him questioning me. And finally he said, you - you are a great listener. And I said, well, you know, I'll take anything I can get. But at least that's good for what I'm going to be doing here with you.

Now we're doing the job. And, you know, we're on ABC, and ABC isn't as strong as NBC in those years. It began after NBC. Johnny had held the show down for a while. He had a great following. It was tough to crack the code there at 11:30 at night. And so one day as we were walking up the street there, taking our walk every afternoon, Joey said, you know, I have a great idea - a great idea. Yeah, but it involves you. I said, really, Joey? What can I do? And he said, here's what we're going to do. You're going to walk off the show. You're going to be angry about what you're heard in the hallway that ABC doesn't like you and that, you know, you're not doing the job. But I'm going to bring you back because I think you're doing the job. In other words, Joey was, you know, making himself a hero and also getting some attention to the show, and maybe people would tune in to see what happens to this young guy who walks off the show.

Well, look; I'm working for Joey Bishop. I'm trying to do my job. He said he would bring me back. And so I didn't want to do it, but I did it. And I walked off the show, and every night Joey would say, I went out looking for Regis today. I went down to the beach. I mean, would say incredible, silly things.

BIANCULLI: You're very diplomatic about it. But reading between the lines, it really seems as though Joey Bishop hung you out to dry on that thing.

PHILBIN: Well, when I reread it and when I think about it, he did. But he did bring me back. So it's just a show business stunt to attract attention and build a rating. That's what it comes down to. And maybe he did. But the way you look at it, you could read that into it. Sure.

BIANCULLI: Regis Philbin visiting FRESH AIR in 2011. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF GWENDOLYN DEASE'S "PORKCHOP'S BLUES")

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our tribute to Regis Philbin, who died of a heart attack last Friday at age 88. I spoke with him in 2011 midway through his final week on TV as co-host of "Live! With Regis and Kelly." It was a last lap loaded with special guests and enthusiastic tributes.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

BIANCULLI: So let me play something for you and see how you react to this. This is from one of your recent shows. Adam Sandler came on as a guest, and you and your co-host Kelly Ripa are there. And everybody wants to sort of do what Bette Midler did with Johnny Carson and serenade you somehow or do something.

PHILBIN: You know, you're absolutely right. That's what's been happening. And he had a poem, right?

BIANCULLI: He had a poem. So let's hear the poem.

PHILBIN: OK.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LIVE! WITH REGIS AND KELLY")

ADAM SANDLER: I wrote this about 4:00 in the morning last night because I was so - you know, I know this is my last time with you, Reg, on the show. But we're going to hang out in real life, but here we go. How could you leave us, Regis? You're quitting is simply egregious.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILBIN: That's a good word.

SANDLER: We need your banter with Kel-egis (ph).

(LAUGHTER)

SANDLER: You two make us laugh until we pee-gis (ph).

(LAUGHTER)

SANDLER: You've had so many co-hosts - Kelly, Kathie Lee. Even Cyndy Garvey sat here with you. And before them, Kitty Carlisle, Lillian Gish, Madame Curie, too.

(LAUGHTER)

BIANCULLI: That's Adam Sandler serenading our guest, Regis Philbin, with Kelly Ripa standing by. Are there any secrets for being a morning person and being on? How do you get so much energy in the morning?

PHILBIN: Well, after a while you develop it for the morning. It's the afternoons where you feel like you're going to die, you know?

BIANCULLI: (Laughter).

PHILBIN: No, you know that you've got to be up. And, I mean, it's not that bad for me now. About 15 years ago or so, we moved into an apartment house that they built right across the street. It used to be the home of all my children. And then they tore that building down - it was just a very small, short building - and they built this skyscraper. And I said, boy, wouldn't this be nice? This is one of the luxuries of working in New York, to live across the street and walk across the street to your job. And it was. And I think it helped me a lot - continue to do the job. It was great.

So in the morning, you wake up at 7:30. You get ready. You take the shower, the shave. You jump into your suit, make a little breakfast for yourself, look at the paper as it is delivered to your door. Then come across the street around 8:20, check whatever else is in the papers you didn't see. Gelman comes in around a quarter to 9:00. Ten to 9:00 we go down, get made up. At 30 seconds to 9, I knock on her door. Out she comes. We walk down the hallway, and we do the show. It's as simple as that.

BIANCULLI: I have one more clip that I want to play, but this one showcases you, which I'm sure you're happier about. And...

PHILBIN: No, not at all (laughter).

BIANCULLI: No, but it exemplifies what I think makes you such a singular TV talent.

PHILBIN: All right.

BIANCULLI: I put you right up there with Jack Paar...

PHILBIN: Thank you.

BIANCULLI: ...In terms of when you are honest and unchecked, and you just do it in front of the entire audience. And in this clip - this is from last week - you're talking to your co-host Kelly Ripa. And the subject comes up of Andy Rooney, who retired from "60 Minutes" just recently and then died a few weeks after that. So here is how you bring it up suddenly, in the midst of the audience all warm and excited about your, you know, announcing your impending retirement and the celebration that's going on.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LIVE! WITH REGIS AND KELLY")

PHILBIN: You know what's scaring me a little bit is Andy Rooney passed away two weeks after he left, after he left...

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Regis...

KELLY RIPA: OK. Now, first of all...

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Apples and oranges.

RIPA: Let's - Right. Let's not compare...

PHILBIN: Andy's gone...

RIPA: That's not...

PHILBIN: ...The tough little guy he was.

RIPA: That's not going to happen to you.

PHILBIN: I don't know. But Andy used to say to the gal, Mika - you know Mika, who works on the - with...

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: "Morning Joe."

PHILBIN: What's his name?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: "Morning Joe?"

PHILBIN: "Morning Joe," yeah.

RIPA: Joe Scarborough.

PHILBIN: Who - I think they're terrific, but anyway - we've talked about that. But, anyway, Mika has said she once worked with Andy over at CBS. And he said, when I leave my job, I'll die.

RIPA: Yes, but you have never said that.

(LAUGHTER)

RIPA: You said, when I leave this job, I'm going to be a movie star.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Right (laughter).

RIPA: That's kind of what you've said.

PHILBIN: Did I say that?

RIPA: Yes. Or you've said you're going to...

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Move on.

RIPA: ...Be a sports broadcaster or something, a Broadway star.

PHILBIN: No. No, no, no. No, no. A movie star.

RIPA: Movie star, whatever.

(LAUGHTER)

RIPA: I mean, you've said a lot of things, but death has never been an option.

(LAUGHTER)

RIPA: So let's not get...

PHILBIN: Yeah, but it scares me a little bit, you know?

RIPA: Stop being competitive with Andy Rooney. Stop.

(LAUGHTER)

BIANCULLI: I just think that's such an honest exchange. Are those the sorts of things that you plan at all to say beforehand or regret afterwards?

PHILBIN: No, not really. You know, there have never been any writers, so we - neither one of us know what the other one is going to say. That's the whole point of working with me. I think I function better like that. And so whatever flashes through your mind - and I forget what preceded it - you're right, the audience seemed to be in a good mood. But, anyway, Andy's passing two weeks after he left his job, after so many years, did flash through my mind, and it just popped out. And I thought Kelly handled it very well.

BIANCULLI: In these last few weeks, when the show has been making such a big deal about your departure, do you have a lot of input into what guests are allowed on and not on and what segments, or do you like to stay away from that so that you're not culpable?

PHILBIN: No, I don't have much input into it. I think there's - you know, I'm kidding around with them now, saying, you know, Gelman, is there maybe too much a farewell to Regis that people are subjected to with all this? It wasn't my idea to even stay this long. I thought I was going to get out of the end of my contract in August. But ABC asked if I wouldn't mind spending a few more months. I don't know why. But they...

BIANCULLI: For the last ratings month of the year, perhaps, Regis?

PHILBIN: For the - thank you very much. There you go, David Bianculli.

BIANCULLI: Yeah.

PHILBIN: You're probably right. And that's all a part of our business - is I - fine, I'll do it. And so that's what we're doing. But no, I have very limited input, but I'm kind of pleased with the way it's going. I hope it - you know, it couldn't go much longer than the two weeks we're on doing it. But other than that, everything's good.

BIANCULLI: Listen - my last question is about something else from your book. You end each chapter with little morals or fables or epigrams. I don't know - yeah.

PHILBIN: Life's lessons, they call it.

BIANCULLI: Well, the one that I want to quote to end our conversation is, one chapter says - ends with one that says, if you are grateful to someone who's brought your life even a little joyfulness and if you have the chance to tell them so, do it. It just takes a second, and you'll never regret it. So thanks.

PHILBIN: Well, thank you very much. And I agree with what you just read because that pertains to Bing Crosby, who I never called, who I was afraid to call, who I didn't think it was - I was important enough to call. He never did know what he meant to me as a little boy growing up in the Bronx and as a guy trying to break into our business.

BIANCULLI: Well, I'm glad I got a chance on your final week on this show to say thank you for - I remember when I came to New York, I wrote about your program and identified it as a guilty pleasure, and you complained. Like, what is there to be guilty about? And I never forgot that. That was very funny.

PHILBIN: Well, you know, people have said that, like they're ashamed that they spend any time watching the show. In the early days, I used to hear that. But nevertheless, they were watching it. I was glad to hear it, whether it was guilty or innocent.

BIANCULLI: (Laughter).

PHILBIN: I'm glad you were with me, Bianculli.

BIANCULLI: I still am. Listen - Regis Philbin...

PHILBIN: Thanks, David.

BIANCULLI: ...Thanks for being on FRESH AIR.

PHILBIN: Thanks, buddy.

BIANCULLI: Regis Philbin visiting FRESH AIR in 2011. He died last Friday of a heart attack at age 88. A personal note - he was one of the nicest people I ever knew in show business and, like Fred Rogers and very few others, was exactly the same off camera as he was when the TV lights were on. After a break, we'll remember Annie Ross, who died Tuesday at age 89. She was a member of the inventive jazz vocal trio Lambert, Hendricks & Ross. Rock critic Ken Tucker will review the new Taylor Swift album, and I'll review the new Disney Plus series "Muppets Now." I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. The release of Taylor Swift's "Folklore," her new, eighth studio album, caught fans by surprise. There had been no reports that Swift was working on a new release. And yet, here it is, recorded in coronavirus lockdown. It contains 16 new songs, into which she poured, she said on social media, quote, "all my whims, dreams, fears and musings," unquote. Rock critic Ken Tucker says he approached the new album very skeptically.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BETTY")

TAYLOR SWIFT: (Singing) Betty, I won't make assumptions about why you switched your homeroom. But I think it's because of me. Betty, one time I was riding on my skateboard. When I passed your house, it's like I couldn't breathe. You heard the rumors from Inez. You can't believe a word she says most times. But this time, it was true. The worst thing that I ever did was what I did to you.

KEN TUCKER, BYLINE: When I heard that Taylor Swift was rushing out an album she'd completed over just the last couple of months, my inner eye rolled with sarcastic dubiousness. Swift usually prepares her album releases with the scrupulous deliberation and elaborate technology of a NASA moon launch. So when I saw that the album was called "Folklore" and that the album package featured misty, black-and-white photos of Swift walking in the woods, I thought, oh, no. Is this going to be like when Justin Timberlake put on a lumberjack shirt and lost his rhythm on "Man Of The Woods?" Nope. I was wrong.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "CARDIGAN")

SWIFT: (Singing) Vintage tee, brand new phone, high heels on cobble stones. When you are young, they assume you know nothing. Sequin smile, black lipstick, sensual politics. When you are young, they assume you know nothing. But I knew you, dancing in your Levi's, drunk under a streetlight. I - I knew you, hand under my sweatshirt. Baby, kiss it better. I - and when I felt like I was an old cardigan under someone's bed, you put me on and said I was your favorite.

TUCKER: That's "Cardigan," The first single off the album. This collection was recorded working remotely with producer Jack Antonoff and a new collaborator, Aaron Dessner, the multi-instrumentalist member of the indie rock band The National, with whom Swift co-wrote 11 of 16 songs. Nevertheless, every composition sounds like a Taylor Swift song. Take, for example, this one called "Mad Woman," in which he addresses the eternally irritating way men call women crazy and angry as ways to diminish them.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MAD WOMAN")

SWIFT: (Singing) Every time you call me crazy, I get more crazy. What about that? And when you say I seem angry, I get more angry. And there's nothing like a mad woman. What a shame she went mad. No one likes a mad woman. You made her like that. And you poke that bear until the claws come out. And you find something to wrap your noose around. And there's nothing like a mad woman.

TUCKER: Interestingly, being isolated has made Swift's songwriting less self-absorbed. The lyrics are not stuffed, for example, with the usual Easter eggs filled with the rotten candy of revenge for her various pop world rivals. Instead, she's more interested in describing other people's lives and the world that we all used to walk around in so freely. One striking example of this is "The Last Great American Dynasty." It's a story song about Rebekah Harkness, the eccentric, wealthy widow who used to occupy the big house Swift moved into some years ago in Watch Hill, R.I.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE LAST GREAT AMERICAN DYNASTY")

SWIFT: (Singing) Rebekah rode up on the afternoon train. It was sunny. Hey saltbox house on the coast took her mind off St. Louis. Bill was the heir to the Standard Oil name and money. And the town said, how did a middle-class divorcee do it? The wedding charming if a little gauche. There's only so far new money goes. They picked out a home and called it Holiday House. Their parties were tasteful if a little loud. The doctor had told him to settle down. It must have been her fault his heart gave out. And they said, there goes the last great American dynasty.

BIANCULLI: One of the best songs on "Folklore" is called "Mirrorball," a lovely pop song. It's like a tune you'd hear from the Bangles or the Mamas and the Papas, but slowed down to render it a ballad even as it remains groovy and catchy.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MIRRORBALL")

SWIFT: (Singing) I want you to know I'm a mirrorball. I'll show you every version of yourself tonight. I'll get you out on the floor - shimmering, beautiful. And when I break, it's in a million pieces. Hush. When no one is around, my dear...

TUCKER: How excellent it is that Swift hasn't spent her quarantine days penning earnest thumb-suckers about the state of the world, but rather cooking up a yeasty kind of sugar-free pop that rises above much recent music-making. The song "Cardigan" has the refrain, when you are young, they assume you know nothing, which reminded me that Swift turned 30 this year. And "Folklore" feels like a dividing line, a marking off of her past as she and we enter our uncertain future.

BIANCULLI: Ken Tucker reviewed Taylor Swift's new album called "Folklore." Coming up, we remember Annie Ross, one-third of the acclaimed and innovative vocal jazz trio known as Lambert, Hendricks & Ross. She died Tuesday of complications from emphysema and heart disease. She was 89 years old. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE WEE TRIO'S "LOLA")
DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. Annie Ross, who was best known as a solo jazz singer and as part of the groundbreaking jazz vocal trio Lambert, Hendricks & Ross, died Tuesday of complications from emphysema and heart disease. She was 89 years old. In the '50s and '60s, she and Dave Lambert and John Hendricks were one of the most popular jazz vocal groups of their time. They specialized in vocalese, adding words and vocals to jazz instrumental arrangements and improvisations. Annie Ross herself wrote the lyrics and sang lead on her most popular song "Twisted" based on an improvisation by tenor saxophonist Wardell Gray. She recorded it solo in 1952 and then again in 1960 as a member of Lambert, Hendricks & Ross. When Terry Gross spoke with Annie Ross in 1990, they started with the trio version of that song.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TWISTED")

LAMBERT, HENDRICKS AND ROSS: (Singing) My analyst told me - what? - that I was right out of my hand. The way he described it - how? - he said I'd be better dead than live. I didn't listen to his jive. I knew all along he was all wrong and I knew that he thought - what? - I was crazy, but I'm not. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. My analyst told me - what? - that I was right out of my head. He said I need treatment. Yeah? But I'm not that easily led. He said I was the type that was most inclined when out of his sight to be out of my mind. And he thought I was nuts. Nuts? No more ifs or ands or buts. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no.

They say as a child I appeared a little bit wild with all my crazy ideas, but I knew what was happening. I knew I was a genius. What's so strange when you know that you're a wizard at 3, I knew that this was meant to be. Well, I heard little children were supposed to sleep tight. That's why I drank a fifth of vodka one night. My parents got frantic, didn't know what to do. But I saw some crazy scenes before I came to. Now do you think I was crazy? I may have been only 3 but I was swinging.

They all laughed at Al Graham Bell. They all laughed at Edison and also at Einstein. So why should I feel sorry if they just couldn't understand the litany and the logic that went on in my head? I had a brain. It was insane. Don't you let them laugh at me when I refuse to ride on all those double decker buses all because there was no driver on the top. No driver on the top? It's twisted. What's the matter with her? My analyst told me - what? - that I was right out of my head...

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Annie Ross, welcome to FRESH AIR.

ANNIE ROSS: Thank you.

GROSS: We just heard "Twisted."

ROSS: Yeah.

GROSS: I just need to ask you if you were in analysis when you wrote that.

ROSS: No, I was not and have never been. The title "Twisted" suggested to me the whole story of a woman going to an analyst, but, no, I wasn't in analysis.

GROSS: So how did you team up with John Hendricks and Dave Lambert?

ROSS: Well, I had come over in this revue "Cranks" with Anthony Newley, and I happened to be at a friend's house. They got a phone call from Dave, I think it was, and he said, I have this idea about putting words to a Count Basie album. Can I come over, bring John and demonstrate what we have? Round they came. They played one of Basie's numbers. They both sang the solos. I thought that's great. And the next thing I knew, they asked me if I would come down and conduct some session singers that they had engaged to record about I think four or six tracks. And they said, you know, that the women - they wanted me to give the women the Basie feel. Well, that was a laugh in itself. I mean, you can't teach that to anybody. You have to be born with it, be brought up with it. And I tried, but like I said, you can't just teach that and especially not in, you know, half an hour or whatever. They had no more that they could do because what they had was not good. They were going to scrap it. And the producer was tearing his hair out and saying, my God, we've lost this money and blah blah blah. And Dave Lambert said, well, what about if we multitrack? Well, I said, of course. I didn't know what multitracking was...

(LAUGHTER)

ROSS: ...I figured I better not show my ignorance. So he said, what we have to do, Annie, we'll get rid of the singers. You, John and I'll go in to a room. We'll rehearse. We'll learn all the harmonies so that we multitrack four times. So I said, OK. And, I mean, you know, we all had great ears, and it was I think one of the great moments of my life because we heard the first track back and that was fine. That was the melody. Then we recorded the second track. They played it with the first track. Well, well, that was something else. And then the third track was unbelievable. The fourth track was mindblowing. And we knew we had something absolutely great.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "EVERY DAY I HAVE THE BLUES")

LAMBERT, HENDRICKS AND ROSS: (Singing) You're singing the blues each time I see you, every day. You're singing the blues. Those blues won't free you, every day. I sort of expected once you'd shake them, everyday, but now I can dig they're what you make them, every day. What about it? Soon as I'm wakin' every day I have the blues. Every dawn I dig, they're waiting there to wig me, every day. What about it? Oh, every day I have the blues. What are you gonna get but blue, wish that I could help you, baby. What can I do? Well, you see me worried, baby. I've had a few. Because it's you I hate to lose. What about settling? How are you going to keep me from meddling? Nobody loves me. Whoa, nobody seems to care. Baby don't seem to care...

GROSS: So the group stuck together, but most of your stuff was not over track like that. It was mostly just straightforward trio. How would you come up with the arrangements? How were those done?

ROSS: Well, they were actual arrangements from the bands of that era. We would take, like, Horace Silver, maybe a quintet, a somewhat scaled down version. We just didn't do the big-band things that much. Except we did do Ellington.

GROSS: Let me play a song that you recorded before you teamed up with Lambert and Hendricks. This is from a 1957 session that you made with baritone saxophonist Gerry Mulligan. The title is "Annie Ross Sings A Song With Mulligan!" And I'm going to play the Dietz and Schwartz song, "I Guess I'll Have To Change My Plan."

ROSS: Oh, good.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I GUESS I'LL HAVE TO CHANGE MY PLAN")

ROSS: (Singing) Well, I guess I have to change my plan. I should have realized I'd lose my favorite man. I overlooked that point completely until the big affair began. Before I knew where I was at, I found myself upon a shelf, and that was that. I tried to reach the moon, but when I got there all that I could get was the air. My feet are back upon the ground 'cause I've lost the one man that I found.

GROSS: My guest Annie Ross recorded with Gerry Mulligan. You came to America from England when you were, I think, 6 years old.

ROSS: Scotland.

GROSS: Scotland - from Scotland.

ROSS: Five and a half.

GROSS: OK.

ROSS: No, 4 1/2. I was 4 1/2 when I arrived.

GROSS: Now, once you got to America, didn't you stay there with your aunt, the singer Ella Logan?

ROSS: Yes, I did. I came to New York with my mother and father and my elder brother. And I won a contest, a radio contest. The prize was a six-month - really a token contract with MGM. And I went out to LA with my aunt because my aunt started doing films. And then my mother left. My father and mother and brother all went back. And I was raised in Beverly Hills in LA.

GROSS: How did you feel about being raised by your aunt and kind of leaving your parents behind?

ROSS: Well, when I say aunt, she was really my guardian. My aunt was really in New York doing shows, and I was raised by a nanny. And it wasn't great.

GROSS: Did your parents have any reservations about leaving you?

ROSS: I'm sure they did. Sure.

GROSS: Did they want it that way, or was it you who...

ROSS: I think they probably felt that it was best for me to do that, that maybe through doing that I could become a star. But they already had stars.

GROSS: You mean California already had stars?

ROSS: Sure. They had Shirley Temple and Jane Withers and, you know, many, many young kids.

GROSS: Well, how were you groomed? What kind of image were you given?

ROSS: The Shirley Temple image, but with a kilt.

GROSS: Oh, because you were Scottish.

ROSS: Yeah.

GROSS: Oh, boy (laughter).

ROSS: I had a thick Scottish accent, too.

GROSS: Did you have those little curls?

ROSS: Oh, sure. Absolutely.

GROSS: And did you have to be cute as a button?

ROSS: Well, I mean, I had no thought of not performing. I mean, I would perform at the drop of a hat. You know, I could swing, and I could sing well, and I could move. And I loved all the attention. I mean, very few children don't like that.

GROSS: Now you also did some "Our Gang" comedies.

ROSS: Oh, I only did one. Yeah.

GROSS: Oh, OK. And what kind of part did you have in there?

ROSS: Well, it's a little girl with a kilt who comes out, and they're producing a show, and she sings a swing version of "Loch Lomond."

GROSS: (Laughter) I should have guessed that, shouldn't I? So how did you start listening to and then performing jazz?

ROSS: Well, my aunt gave me a record of Ella Fitzgerald singing "A-Tisket, A-Tasket" when I was 4. And I learned it, and I could do it. And a wonderful thing about my aunt was that in our house in LA, there were always a lot of musicians who hung around. And they were musicians from Duke Ellington's band, indeed, Duke Ellington himself, Roy Eldridge, Erroll Garner. And so I moved toward modern jazz, as opposed to Dixieland.

GROSS: Well, I wish you the best, and I thank you very much for talking with us.

ROSS: Oh, you're very welcome.

BIANCULLI: Annie Ross visited Terry Gross and FRESH AIR in 1990. The jazz vocalist and film actress died Tuesday at age 89. Coming up, I review "Muppets Now," the new Disney Plus attempt to revive the spirit of the classic TV series "The Muppet Show." This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF HIOR CHRONIK FEAT. YOSHINORI TAKEZAWA'S "WE ARE THE SNOWFLAKES")
DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. Today, Disney Plus premiers a new series with a very old lineage - "Muppets Now," a six-episode comedy show from The Muppets Studio. It features many familiar characters and a few new ones.

So the Muppets are back. They're not better than ever, but at least they're back. I have wonderful memories of Jim Henson's goofy creations - Kermit the Frog, Miss Piggy, The Swedish Chef and the rest - and I don't know anyone who doesn't. Since 1969, children have grown up watching and loving Bert and Ernie and Big Bird on "Sesame Street." And even before that, in the '50s and early '60s, Henson and his fellow puppeteers were familiar fixtures on television. They presented their own local children's show in Chicago called "Sam And Friends" and went national as furry and felt-covered guests on TV's earliest talk shows hosted by Steve Allen and Jack Paar. But their true TV masterpiece to me came in 1976 with the premiere of their syndicated variety series called "The Muppet Show." Kermit was the always exasperated producer trying to put on a weekly vaudeville-style revue while everything around him threatened to spill into chaos. The new Disney Plus series "Muppets Now" adopts a similar format, except the producer is Scooter, not Kermit, and the program these muppets are making is being uploaded to the Internet. But like the classic "Muppet Show," this new one features some spoofs of TV shows and celebrity guest stars and even some new Muppet characters, like the show's corporate attorney who's a real weasel - well, a muppet weasel named Joe.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "MUPPETS NOW")

MATT VOGEL: (As Kermit the Frog) You're watching "Muppets Now" streaming direct...

DAVID RUDMAN: (As Scooter) What the - did I click something?

PETER LINZ: (As Joe the Legal Weasel) Greetings and salutations. I'm Joe from legal with a notice regarding the pending uploads for "Muppets Now."

RUDMAN: (As Scooter) Well, yep, they're all ready to go.

LINZ: (As Joe the Legal Weasel) Not without prior audience testing, they're not.

RUDMAN: (As Scooter) Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

LINZ: (As Joe the Legal Weasel) This de facto focus group must be conducted and that is de facto oh - that is de facto o' the matter (laughter).

BIANCULLI: I really wanted to love "Muppets Now," but after seeing half of the episodes that will be rolled out weekly this season, all I can do at this point is like it. That's because as I watch "Muppets Now," I remember "Muppets" then, back when the writing was super sharp and the guest stars were great. It was one of the first shows I ever reviewed and raved about as a TV critic. It was a perfect program - fast moving, loaded with lovable characters and featuring big name guest stars who were as entertained by "The Muppets" as I was. Linda Ronstadt showed up to sing "Blue Bayou" in a swamp filled with Muppet frogs as her backup singers. Even Milton Berle, who brought vaudeville to TV in the first place, showed up on the "Muppet" stage to do his comedy routine and was heckled mercilessly by a pair of senior citizens in the balcony, two old codgers named Statler and Waldorf.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE MUPPET SHOW")

RICHARD HUNT: (As Statler) Hey, Berle.

MILTON BERLE: What?

HUNT: (As Statler) You know what? I've just figured out your style.

BERLE: Really?

HUNT: (As Statler) You work like Gregory Peck.

(LAUGHTER)

BERLE: Gregory Peck is not a comedian.

HUNT: (As Statler) Well...

(LAUGHTER)

BERLE: Now, just a minute, please. I have been a successful comedian half of my life.

JIM HENSON: (As Waldorf) How come we got this half?

(LAUGHTER)

BERLE: Look, did you come in here to be entertained or not?

HUNT: (As Statler) That's right.

BERLE: What's right?

HUNT: (As Statler) We came in here to be entertained. And we're not.

(LAUGHTER)

BERLE: Oh, yeah? I'd like to see you come down here and be funny.

HENSON: (As Waldorf) You first.

(LAUGHTER)

BIANCULLI: The new series, "Muppets Now," isn't nearly that funny. The jokes aren't as crisp. The individual TV show sketches go on much too long. And there are no musical segments, which are sorely missed. Trying to recapture the old "Muppet" magic isn't easy. The first "Muppet" movie managed to pull it off, but that was when the original "Muppet Show" was still in production and when Jim Henson and Frank Oz were still the heart and soul of the operation. But ABC failed with more recent revival attempts in 1996 and again in 2015. And "Muppets Now" also is a very mixed bag. Its celebrity guests aren't given enough to do, though they try. Linda Cardellini is a good sport without any good lines, and the best sketch in these early episodes presents the Swedish Chef as a sort of iron chef doing battle with guest star Danny Trejo, who takes the battle part a bit too seriously.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "MUPPETS NOW")

DANNY TREJO: Today, we will be preparing the mole taco - traditional Latin meal - very, very delicious, probably better than anything in Sweden.

BILL BARRETTA: (As The Swedish Chef, unintelligible).

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Boys, boys, boys, now, let's stick to your sides, please.

BIANCULLI: In the episode in which Joe the Legal Weasel makes Scooter preview the show to a focus group before uploading it - in this case, that's actually not such a bad idea, especially since that focus group turns out to be a pair of very familiar and very opinionated "Muppet" characters.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "MUPPETS NOW")

LINZ: (As Joe the Legal Weasel) Enjoy the audience survey.

RUDMAN: (As Scooter) The focus group can't be any worse than that guy. Oh, no.

DAVE GOELZ AND PETER LINZ: (As Statler and Waldorf) Our thoughts exactly (laughter).

RUDMAN: (As Scooter) What did we do to deserve this?

LINZ: (As Statler) Don't worry.

DAVE GOELZ: (As Waldorf) We'll tell you.

GOELZ AND LINZ: (As Statler and Waldorf, laughter).

RUDMAN: (As Scooter) I can't look.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Oh, is that an option?

BIANCULLI: My own criticism is short and sweet. My advice if the staff of "Muppets Now" convenes for a second season is simple. Cut the sketches by half, sharpen the writing, keep the weasel and, by all means, bring back the music.

On Monday's show - since 2004, more than 2,000 American newspapers have gone out of business. Our guest will be Washington Post media columnist Margaret Sullivan, who discusses the decline of local news coverage. It's a crisis, she says, is as serious as the spread of disinformation on the Internet. Her new book is "Ghosting The News: Local Journalism And The Crisis Of American Democracy." I hope you can join us. For Terry Gross, I'm David Bianculli.

(SOUNDBITE OF URI CAINE ENSEMBLE'S "CANON AT THE 4TH IN 4/4")

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.