Memoir: 'Mixed,' But Mixed Up No More

DATE March 28, 2006 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Angela Nissel discusses the TV show "Scrubs," which she
writes for, and her new book, "Mixed: My Life in Black and White"
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

If you ask fans of the TV series "Scrubs" what they love about the show you're
likely to hear about how the show satirizes hospital life and the lives of
young interns. But you're also likely to hear about how funny the show is on
the subject of race, and the expectations that white people,
African-Americans, and Latinos have of each other. My guest Angela Nissel has
written for the show and is now a consulting producer. She comes at the
subject of racial expectations with some personal expertise. Her mother is
black; her father is white. Nissel was sent to inner city schools and largely
white prep schools. She's written a new comic memoir called "Mixed: My Life
in Black and White."

Here's a scene she wrote for "Scrubs" last year. J.D., a white doctor, is
puzzling over the meaning of rap lyrics he just heard. He asks for some help
from his best friend and fellow doctor, Turk, who is black. Then two white
female doctors butt in. Here's J.D.:

(Beginning of clip from "Scrubs")

Mr. ZACH BRAFF: (As Dr. John "J.D." Dorian) Half of what rappers say
doesn't make any sense. Like that Snoop Dog/Dr. Dre song, what is `Still
hittin' them corners and those hohos girl' mean?

Mr. DONALD FAISON: (As Dr. Christopher Turk) Many disadvantaged
African-Americans have limited nutritional choices, therefore they must
subsist on Hoho snack cakes. It's a black thing, bro.

Unidentified Woman #1: Actually, Turk, it's `Still hittin' them corners in
them low lows, girl.' It's low lows, not hohos.

Unidentified Woman #2: Hey Turk, in the 'hood, a low low is a low rider or a
car with an adjusted suspension that allows it to bounce up and down.

Woman #1: And Dre and Snoop enjoy driving around together in their low riders
around the corners, or lizzle rizzle. (Rapping) "I'm representing for them
gangsters all across the world, still hitting them corners in them low lows,
girl."

Women #1 and #2: (In unison) "Still taking my time to perfect the beat, and I
still got love for the street."

Woman #1: Turk, you just got schooled on rap by the two whitest chicks in
America.

Mr. FAISON: (As Turk) None of you can prove it.

Mr. BRAFF: (As J.D.) I got it on tape.

(End of clip)

GROSS: That's a scene from "Scrubs."

Angela Nissel welcome to FRESH AIR. Tell us about writing that scene.

Ms. ANGELA NISSEL (Author, "Mixed: My World in Black and White"): Oh, now
that scene was so hard because, first of all, you have to get permission to
use lyrics from the rappers. So--and we tend to kind of do things a little
late on "Scrubs." We'll be filming on Monday, and we'll have the scenes ready
on Sunday night. So I spent most of Monday morning calling around to a bunch
of rappers trying to get permission to use their lyrics, and finally when I
found one that would let me use the lyrics, I had to go back and decode the
lyrics, listen to them and give them a meaning that they didn't have, what
Turk could think they meant.

GROSS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like the Hohos thing. Yeah.

Ms. NISSEL: And something that--and also something that could be said on
television, and then go back and have the two white girls explain it to Turk.
But that scene was fun for me because it happens so much to me in my daily
life, being the only black writer on "Scrubs." My first day I remember a
fellow writer came in and said, `Angela, we're writing this scene with Turk,
we need your help. How do black people say thank you?' `We usually just say
thanks or thank you.' And it's just amazing to me how many times I get
asked,`How do black people do this,' or--funny.

GROSS: Was there a black writer on "Scrubs" before you joined?

Ms. NISSEL: No, it was--I walked into an all-white writing staff, and I come
to find out that's how most comedy staffs are in Hollywood, at least on the
major three networks.

GROSS: Do you ever disagree with white writers on the show about what will be
offensive to African-Americans and where the line is between, you know, funny
and bad taste?

Ms. NISSEL: Oh, yes. There are times that I have gone into my room, my
writ--my office and have cried because, trying to get writers, the majority
whom--of whom are rich, white males, to think outside of their usual frame of
reference is a hard thing. And when there's a whole room laughing at
something, it's hard to be the one person who breaks through the laughter and
says, `You know, guys, some people might actually not find that funny.' Even
just certain things, like our character Turk dancing a lot. You don't want to
have Turk be the step-and-fetch-it character. There's a line between funny
and offensive. And to be the one that brings down the party in the room by
saying, `Maybe we shouldn't dress J.D. up as Turk one more time,' or `Maybe
Turk plays basketball a little too much. He's a surgeon,' You always come off
as the party-pooper. But, I know from my friends and their feedback on the
show, certain things do bother them, so I really try to take that into
consideration, because this reaches so many people. And I remember growing up
as a child and being embarrassed when certain scenes came on TV.

GROSS: Now, you've said that the kind of humor that you write for "Scrubs"
you feel you couldn't write on a show that was predominantly African-American.

Ms. NISSEL: It's--I'm lucky it's "Scrubs" because we--the show is based on
the idea of the show runner. And our creator, Bill Lawrence, is very open to
new ideas, and a lot of African-American shows that I watch now fall into a
lot of the same stereotypes. And most black people I know don't really watch
them. The jokes will be about the same subject matter, like hair or dancing
or `You can't dance. You're not really black'-type things. And I say, `God,
what happened to the days of "Cosby Show" and "Different World" and "Rock"?'
some of the shows I used to watch that brought up real issues but also had
comedy. And I feel like I'm free to kind of push the envelope a little bit.
Luckily because of--we have a lot of freedom at "Scrubs," which we're lucky we
don't have a lot of executives coming by and checking our scripts and saying,
`You can't do this, your can't do that.' And we have a show runner who will
take chances and do things that I'll say, `Trust me on this one. Trust me.
Black people will get it.'

Like for one--for instance, we were doing a show where J.D. has a black
girlfriend, and he said, `What are some stereotypes about white people?' We
were just talking, just shooting the breeze, which is how most show ideas come
up. And I said, `Well, there's a thing among black people, we always think
white people smell wet dogs.' And the room was just stunned. They said, `No
way, are you serious?' And so we had to call--I had to call three black people
on speaker phone to prove to them. I said--I called my best friend. `Hey,
what do black people say white people smell like?' `Wet dog,' you know? And
so--until they would believe me. And they said, `That is amazing. We have to
put that on the air.' And I think that's the only show where I could get away
with making a wet dog joke.

GROSS: So--well, how did you use it?

Ms. NISSEL: J.D.'s girlfriend, if I'm remembering correctly, said--made a
comment about people smelling like wet dog--J.D. smelling like wet dog. And
it just blew J.D. away. It just was, like, `Wet dog?' He'd never heard that.
And J.D. said something about being a slave in front of his black girlfriend,
and he was like, `Oh, my God, you just mentioned slavery in front of your
black girlfriend!' you know? `Say something else! Cover! Cover!' And so,
the thoughts that really go through people's heads when they're talking to
each other, or the real way that people talk.

And I also think it's funny because a lot of black people after that episode
were like, `You gave away our secret.' I was like--I was like, `I didn't know
wet dog was a secret,' you know? It's--but then I also found out certain
things they're like--that white guys who have dated black girls have always
wanted to ask black women but never got around to doing. And I just think
that type of comedy is great. All those things that we keep inside because
we're afraid of offending people. I love that stuff.

GROSS: What are the things they want to ask that they don't ask?

Ms. NISSEL: `Why'--number one question, which I love--`Why does my black
girlfriend not like me to touch her hair? And why does she refuse to get on
water rides?' I'm like, `Because it takes a long time to get those black
hairdos. If you don't see your girlfriend all day Saturday, she's not
cheating on you. She's is in the hair salon, and water ruins it.

As a child I had to learn to swim with my head above water. And, two, I know
a lot of my black girlfriends have weaves in their hair, which a lot of white
girls are getting now, where the hair is either glued or braided to your
scalp. A guy can't run his fingers through your hair if there's glue holding
it in. So you just kind of, you know, `Massage my shoulders, baby. Just do
the shoulders,' you know? So it's--but I found it just so fascinating that,
why guys who are with someone but never had the courage to say, `Why don't you
ever want to go swimming with me? Or why can't I run my fingers through your
hair?' And I said, `Wow, you know, you're in love with someone but you're
still not comfortable because of the race issue to ask them something.'

GROSS: So do you think that you and the white writers on "Scrubs" are
comfortable talking to each other about racial issues?

Ms. NISSEL: Writers and I are very comfortable talking to each other. There
is that line, and I've crossed it, and they've crossed it, where it gets very
personal. And there are topics like religion and race that are very close to
people's hearts, and they believe very strongly in certain things. There have
been arguments, there have been screaming matches, people driving off,
threatening to quit, you know? But, I think from all of that comes the humor.

Now, I think because most of us have worked together for at least four years,
we're extremely comfortable, and we know the lines--where to go and not to go
with each other. There's one Republican in our room, and we refer to
ourselves as the two minorities because we're always getting picked on--him
for the Republican jokes, and me for the black jokes. So we kind of team up
and he takes the black jokes on and I take the Republican jokes. So...

GROSS: Do you think writing for "Scrubs," in which race is an often--is a
frequent theme, and being the only African-American writer in a writing staff
that's predominantly white, do you think that's the way--changed the way you
talk about race outside of "Scrubs?"

Ms. NISSEL: Yes, but it's not--I wouldn't say that it's changed it for the
better. I get so comfortable talking about race at "Scrubs" that I forget
that everyone doesn't talk about it like that. So sometimes I--I'm trying to
think of the specific comment, but I just know that I am now comfortable at
laughing at any type of joke, whereas before if someone told a Jewish joke or
if someone told a gay joke, I was like, `Am I allowed to laugh?' Now, I'm,
like, laughing the loudest in the room. And sometimes I will see people look
at me like, `How dare you laugh. That's our joke.' And I'm like, (gasps), you
know? But, it has made me more comfortable talking race. Also knowing how to
talk about race, that people always take it a little bit easier when you add
some sugar to it, as my mom would say. You know, start off with a joke if you
have a question.

GROSS: Well, you know, you put your finger on something I wanted to ask you
about. Often in humor it's assumed that if you're Jewish you could tell a
Jewish joke; if you're African-American you could tell a black joke. But, if
you're Jewish you shouldn't tell a black joke, and if you're black you
shouldn't tell a Jewish joke.

Ms. NISSEL: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: So, now on your staff, you know, you and the white writers, you're
telling jokes for characters who are black and white. So do you have that
sense of ownership that only like, you know, the black writer can tell the
black jokes, only the white writer can tell the white jokes?

Ms. NISSEL: No, not at all. Because if they relied on me for all of the
black jokes, I--the show would not have as many. It mostly comes out of the
questions, and the questions that they ask about black people.

For instance, there--one of our writers said, `Angela, I was watching this
documentary, and Harry Belafonte went to a prison, and this guy he had never
met--an inmate--he gave him one of those cool handshakes. And the guy
automatically knew what to do. He knew how to follow the handshake. How do
they do it?' And I said, `I don't know.' I really didn't know. So we called
my brother in Philadelphia on speaker phone, and my brother said, `Well, you
just kind of like--it's like ballroom dancing. You kind of--one person takes
the lead and you follow.' And the guy said, `Well, what happens if you mess up
the shake?' He said, `That's when you draw the guy in for the one-arm hug like
you see.' And even I was fascinated. I said I'd always see, like, the rappers
and the basketball players giving each other that one-arm, like, manly hug.
And I said, wow, so that's when they mess up the handshake, or when they just
both want to get the handshake over with. So now we're using that in
"Scrubs." We've put it on the list of funny things to do. When J.D.
constantly gets the handshake wrong and is always pulling people in for these
one-arm hugs. So it's like most of the stuff just comes out of talking.

GROSS: Is there a character on the show who you particularly relate to or who
particularly reflects you?

Ms. NISSEL: Hm. I think it would have to be Elliot. And, at first I
thought I would relate to Carla a bit more because she's a bit more mature,
but it's definitely Elliot. Because Elliot is this neurotic woman who was
unsure of herself and tended to put her foot in her mouth a lot, didn't know
when to shut up. And that was me, totally. But I'm slowly learning that
she's capable, even if she keeps the idea that she's not capable stuck in the
back of her mind. And I totally relate to her. I relate to some of the
situations she's in, being in an environment that's mostly male, too, because
me in the writer's room. When she--on one episode, she asked the guys, she
said, `You actually rate the woman of this hospital in terms of appearance?'
And they said, `Yes we do, number 12,' or something like that. She says,
`Yes! Top 20!' you know? And I'm like, oh, that's totally me. I'd be
appalled to know they were rating me, but if I'm rated in the top 20 I'd
secretly be so happy. I love writing for Elliot.

GROSS: So, OK, you're writing for Elliot. She's white and also she's, she'd
be, like, the Republican?

Ms. NISSEL: Yes.

GROSS: So she's not, in some ways she's really not like you.

Ms. NISSEL: But it's--I find, and this is due to my background, a lot of the
things that you go through in life--it's like this is such like an Oprah
moment--but a lot of the things that you go through in life that you're like,
`Why am I going through this?' they really do have a purpose later on. And
being the outsider in the room, if Elliot is the Republican on the show, she's
the outsider. And being the woman among the main characters, the only woman
doctor, she's the outsider. And I think that people who have ever had the
experience being outside, which most of us have, can relate to characters like
that. And that's why I like writing for her, because her perspective is a
little different from J.D.'s and Turk's. They're best friends. Despite their
color, they see things, a lot of things in the same way where she'll see them
in a totally different way, and she can add a fresh angle to things.

GROSS: My guest is Angela Nissel. She writes for the NBC TV series "Scrubs"
and has a new memoir about being biracial called "Mixed." More after a break.
This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Angela Nissel, and she's a
consulting producer for "Scrubs." She's been writing for the show, for what,
about four years?

Ms. NISSEL: Yes.

GROSS: And she has got a new memoir which is called "Mixed: My Life in Black
and White." And, Angela, your new memoir is about being biracial. Your mother
is African-American; your father is white. How did they meet? And I should
preface this by saying, your mother, when she met your father,was a Black
Panther.

Ms. NISSEL: Yes.

GROSS: So how did they meet and start dating?

Ms. NISSEL: Now, what's interesting is that my mother and father both have
very different versions of their first meeting. My mother's side is that she
thought my father was half black, which I find a little curious because my
father has straight red hair and green eyes and he's very pale with freckles.
So I said, OK. But he--his mother re-married a black man. So he was living
in the 'hood with a white mother and a black step-father. So my mom says, `I
thought the step-father was his natural--was his real father. So that's the
reason I started dating him.' Only about--after we'd started going out for
about a couple of weeks and we were dancing once, I said, `Hey, are you all
white?' And he said, `Yeah.' And she said, `I was shocked, but I was already
in love with him.'

And my father says, `Your mother knew I was white.' You know, he says, `I used
to come over to her house and play chess with your aunt. You know, she
totally knew I was white.' But, they met because my father was the only white
guy in the black neighborhood. And it's funny because he doesn't find
anything odd about that. But I remember growing up, all of his friends being
black and having names like Leroy and Hassan. I said my father has no Brians
or Gregs coming over to the house. That--just that he happened to live in the
same neighborhood she lived in.

GROSS: Did you mother's friends think that it took away from her movement
credentials to be with a white man?

Ms. NISSEL: You know, we've never really talked about that. I know that she
said that black men, when they would see her on the street, and with her afro
and with her "Power to the People" jacket, walking with my father, they would
say, `Oh, you know, you're not really down for the struggle. You're with this
white guy.' And she also talks about the how the white nurses--my mother's a
nurse--that she went to school with knew her during her militant days. So
when she gave birth to me in the hospital, I was extremely light and I had
strawberry blonde hair when I came out. And my mother's like, `That's my
baby.' And there was a hug ruckus about, `Who's going to give the white baby
to the Black Panther,' you know? Like, `We're not handing this baby over to
her.' So she had to, like, prove, she had to, like, bring my father in and
say,`No, really, that's my baby. I'm married to him.' And she just said
everyone was like, `What happened to her?'

GROSS: When you're biracial, your race is, in a way, different than either of
your parents. So you're experiencing something racially in America that your
parents haven't experienced firsthand. So did that kind of separate you in
any way from each of your parents? Make you feel different from them?

Ms. NISSEL: Oh, definitely. I don't know if my mother and father had a talk
when I was born, but I know that my mother handled all of my race questions.
And when I was very young, and before she split up with my dad--I was about
eight when they broke up--she would just say, `You're black and you're white
and you're beautiful.' I always say she that sounded like she was the public
relations manager for mixed children. But, I always wondered when I was
young, `Why am I not black and white like a zebra or something,' you know?
And people would constantly tease me for being black and white. And I didn't
understand why you get eye color from one of your parents, and hair color from
one of your parents, but you don't get your skin color. It kind of goes in
the middle. And for the longest time I'm just like, `I don't understand how I
came out looking like this.'

And it also caused a bit of a gulf between my mother in my teenage years
because a lot of people in the African-American community view lighter skin as
a thing of beauty. And, so I, at one point, because I didn't understand the
color issues, really thought that I was better than my mother. That's what a
lot of people were telling me. And my mother even admits that by marrying a
white guy she thought that I would have an easier time than she did. She said
she was teased so bad throughout school she would put clothespins on her nose
and try to bleach her skin to be lighter.

So there were a lot of things growing up that were new to my mother in raising
me: the way that I was perceived in the black community, and the way that I
wasn't readily accepted like she thought I would be because I came out a
lighter complexion.

GROSS: Now, she wanted you to have, you know, biracial role models, so she
told you David Hasselhoff was half black and half white.

Ms. NISSEL: Yeah.

GROSS: And apparently you fell for that one.

Ms. NISSEL: I know. And you know, there's these moments in your life where
you're like, `My mom lied to me.' And they--and I couldn't stop laughing when
I was writing this part of the book because I said, I must have looked so
crazy. My mother said--I said, `Mom, who, you know, who looks like me?
There's nobody on TV who looks like me.' And she said, `Yes there is.' Knight
Rider, David Hasselhoff.' And, oh my goodness, I couldn't wait to write my
Black History Month report on David Hasselhoff. And I got an A because my
teacher thought--my nun thought that David Hasselhoff was Mr. T. She had no
idea about black culture.' And I was like, `And I love "Knight Rider" because
he's half black like me.' And she was like, "A." And then she whispers to me,
`So that's the guy with all the gold chains and the mohawk, right?' And I was
just like, `Just say yes, you got an A,' you know? `Yes.' I got my first A.
David Hasselhoff, I'd like to thank him.

GROSS: Angela Nissel writes for the NBC series "Scrubs." Her new memoir is
called "Mixed: My Life in Black and White." She'll be back in the second half
of the show.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: Coming up Fred Barnes talks about "Rebel-in-Chief," his new book in
praise of President Bush. Also, more with Angela Nissel about "Scrubs."

(Announcements)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Angela Nissel. She's
written a new memoir about being the daughter of an African-American mother
and a white father. It's called "Mixed: My Life in Black and White." She
also writes for "Scrubs," the NBC comedy about a group of interns and the
hospital they work in.

You know, something else you write about in your memoir "Mixed," is
depression. You've had depression. You were in a hospital in a while being
treated for depression. And you write that being depressed as a black woman
is about as unthinkable as being a feminist black woman. Why--to whom are
both of these things considered unthinkable?

Ms. NISSEL: I remember starting college, and we had a big debate about black
women and feminism, and I still talk to my girlfriends about this. To--a lot
of black women think that the feminist movement was for white women
specifically, and that of course they could burn their bras because we were
still--and go out and work because we were still in their homes being their
maids. And there is also a one--not to put any more burden on black men, and
we think that--not all of us, but some of us think that if we stand up for our
rights as women, we're somehow pushing down black men who have enough problems
as it is. So I remember never speaking up about any type of women's rights
when I was in college, and never speaking up about how depressed I felt. And
they just seemed like the same thing to me, to admit that there's something
wrong with me as a black woman, or I'm undergoing some kind of stress, is just
unacceptable.

GROSS: So if you say you're depressed, or you believe in women's rights and
in righting certain wrongs about inequality, that makes you a traitor or
something?

Ms. NISSEL: It makes you a--yes. It makes you a traitor, and it also, for
me, because I was hanging on to trying to be accepted by the black community
like somebody hangs onto the edge of a cliff, you know, it was--I didn't want
to say anything that would make people point to me and say, `Uh-huh, that's
your half-white side. That's what side is speaking out right now.'

GROSS: And how did that change for you when you admitted you were depressed
and got some treatment for it?

Ms. NISSEL: Whoo. That was, I told my lovely, white academic adviser, I
finally admitted to her. It was like, `I'm telling a white person only that
I'm depressed.' And then I said, `Oh, God, please don't let me have a black
doctor because they'll be so ashamed of me.' And, of course, I got one of like
maybe the four black doctors in the whole hospital when I checked in. I said,
`Oh, God, what are you doing? Oh, they're going to give me, like--they're
going to take away my black pass now.' But, it changed because when I got into
the hospital, half of the patients were black. And the majority of them were
black women, and for the first time I got to sit down with other women whose
experiences were like mine and talk about issues. Like, talk about how hard
it is to--a lot of them were in the same college I was in, too--talk about how
hard it was to get by at a mostly white university, how hard it was to feel
this way and not have anyone else to talk to about it.

GROSS: Now, your first book was called "The Broke Diaries." Not brokeback,
but broke. As in out of cash.

Ms. NISSEL: Yes. Yeah.

GROSS: And I want you to explain the premise of the book.

Ms. NISSEL: That book was how I got through college with no funds
whatsoever. I had two jobs, but that still wasn't making ends meet too much.
And when you get accepted to college, you think, OK, I just have to pay
tuition, and I had a scholarship for tuition, but I didn't understand that
that didn't cover boarding and fees and textbooks. So it was about all the
things my girlfriends and I used to do to kind of get by. How we learned to
make ketchup and mustard sandwiches. We made, like, 50 meals out of ketchup.
Just how I used to work as a security guard for people so when they went
places they were afraid to go by themselves--posing as a professor, so that
publishing houses would send me free copies of textbooks. And I'm surprised
to find out that it's become kind of like this cult classic among college
students. It's just so odd to me because I wrote it to keep my sanity. I
didn't ever expect it to get published. And then one day I get approached by
an editor, like, `Would you like to make a book out of this?' I was like, `Oh,
my goodness, are you serious?' That's how it all started.

GROSS: Well, one of the things you did during this period when you were broke
was do computer dating, and the goal of the date was basically to get a free
meal because you figured the guy would treat you.

Ms. NISSEL: Yes.

GROSS: So how often did you do that, and what was your style in doing it?

Ms. NISSEL: Oh, my goodness. I was all about newspaper dating. This was
before--and I guess in a way I still am, because I met my husband online. I
was all about the ads, the personal ads. So I would just answer personal ads
and place my own personal ad, and get ready for a date. And thank goodness
some men still believed in chivalry, because I was so tired of eating the
cafeteria lunch, and I could only afford the meal plan where you got one meal
a day. So when I would go out with guys and they would say, `Hey, where do
you want to meet?' I mean, a lot of these dates would only be McDonald's or a
coffee shop, but I would at least get, like, a muffin or a croissant out of
it. And we would just go on dates. And I mean, sometimes I would like the
guy and we would go on more than one date and they would be happy to treat.
And, I was--oh, thank goodness for them.

GROSS: Now, you have your Masters degree in medical anthropology. When you
were studying medical anthropology, did you ever think you would end up
writing for a sitcom about doctors, nurses, residents?

Ms. NISSEL: Not at all. I looked in the job bank at University of Penn when
I was graduating, and I saw that most people with these degrees, medical
anthropology, either went into the job--the Peace Corps or worked at a museum.
And I said, `All right. Well, I guess I need put in--start putting in
applications at the museum.' When I found out that I was interviewing for the
"Scrubs" position, I said, `Oh, my God, this is so perfect.' But, actually,
I've only been able to use my medical anthropology stuff, like, twice.
Someone's, like, `Hey, we need an exotic illness, and the script is due in in,
like, two minutes,' and I can just throw out, `Kuru. That's an exotic
illness,' and they just put it in the script. That's the extent that I've
been able to add to the show.

GROSS: How did you get the job on "Scrubs?" How did you even get to the
interview for the job?

Ms. NISSEL: Oh, my goodness. Now this is a story. I was out here, and "The
Broke Diaries" was optioned by a producer. And I thought that meant that I
was going to be rich and laid back, and I was going to buy my mom a house. It
doesn't work like that. You have to have a studio take interest in it, and
then you actually have to get in on the air if it's going to be a TV show. So
I moved myself out here to LA, and I'm planning on being really rich, but--so
I wasn't. So, I put a bunch of stuff up on E-bay while I was working some
temp jobs. A woman who bid on one of my E-bay items happened to be an
executive at The WB, part of Warner Brothers, and she recognized my name when
she saw the return address on the label. And she said did you write "The
Broke Diaries?" And I said, `Yes, that's me.' She said, `What are you doing
selling stuff on E-bay? You should be writing for sitcoms. Let me introduce
you to an agent.' I said, `Oh, my goodness, is she serious?' She introduced me
to an agent. My agent said, `OK, I'm going to send you out on some meetings.
Write a spec script,' which is a script of a show that's on TV that you come
up with entirely in your head, `and I'll send you on some meetings.'

Well, I'm from the East Coast, and meeting just means you're having a little
meet-and-greet. When you're interviewing for a job, you actually call them
job interviews. So I go out to all these meetings having no idea the--what
the show runners are actually doing is looking at my personality to see if I
can get along with other people in a writing room. And I come back from these
meetings, which took place over the course of about two weeks, and he says,
`You have two job offers.' I was like, `Those were job interviews' you know?
I was, like, I have a lot to learn about LA. But, that's how I got the
meeting. And I wrote the spec script, and it turns out that Bill Lawrence,
who's the show runner for "Scrubs," didn't even read it. He was like, `I just
like "The Broke Diaries." I thought the book was funny.' And I was like, `Wow,
I could have saved some time there.' But, if someone in LA tells you you're
going on a meeting, it's most likely an interview.

GROSS: Well, Angela Nissel, thank you so much for talking with us.

Ms. NISSEL: Thank you so much.

GROSS: Angela Nissel writes for the NBC series "Scrubs." Her new memoir is
called "Mixed: My Life in Black and White." You can read an excerpt on our
Web site, freshair.npr.org.

Coming up, "Rebel-in-Chief." "An insurgent leader, an alien in the realm of
the governing class." That's how Fred Barnes describes President Bush in his
new book. We'll talk with Barnes after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcement)

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Interview: Fred Barnes discusses his new book, "Rebel-in-Chief"
TERRY GROSS, host:

At a time when several books by conservatives have made news for their
criticisms of President Bush, my guest Fred Barnes has a new book in praise of
him called "Rebel-in-Chief: Inside the Bold and Controversial Presidency of
George W. Bush." Barnes is executive editor of the The Weekly Standard, and
co-host of the program "The Beltway Boys" on the FOX News Channel. He
formerly covered the Supreme Court and the White House for The Washington
Star, and was national political correspondent for The Baltimore Sun.

Fred Barnes, welcome to FRESH AIR. There's been several books by
conservatives and former Bush administration officials who've become critics
of the president. In fact, it only seems like that's become a genre within
the book industry. There's Paul O'Neill's book, who was former secretary of
the treasury; Richard Clarke, former Bush administration counterterrorism
expert; Bruce Bartlett, conservative economist and former member of the Reagan
administration; Frances Fukuyama, a neoconservative who now thinks the war was
a bad idea. Do you see your book in a way as an answer or as a counterpart to
those books?

Mr. FRED BARNES (Author, "Rebel-in-Chief"): Well, I hadn't planned it that
way, that's for sure, because Bruce Bartlett's book hadn't come out, Richard
Clarke had of course voiced his dissent quite publicly after he left the Bush
White House, and Paul O'Neill had as well in a book he wrote with another
writer. And Frank Fukuyama's book wasn't out. No, my book, the idea was that
I would write a book about the Bush presidency. And frankly, it was
commissioned at a time, in early 2005 or late 2004, was after I had written an
article, and it was based on an article--this article in The Wall Street
Journal. And Bush had been re-elected, and he was riding quite high. And so
it was about his presidency, which at the time was more successful than it has
been really over the bulk of 2005 and into 2006. So it wasn't a response to
anything.

GROSS: It sounds a little bit like, do you want to take back anything you
said in the book?

Mr. BARNES: Well, I don't want to take anything back, but clearly, President
Bush had more success in his first term than he's had in his second term, at
least so far. The high point in his second term, I'm afraid, was his
inauguration address January 20, 2005, in which he in a--I thought an eloquent
speech--outlined his crusade for democracy of the world, and it's sort of been
downhill since there. His Social Security reform initiative failed in 2005.
Then we had Katrina. We had Harriet Miers and a number of other things, which
really meant that 2005 was, I think, the low point in his presidency.

GROSS: You know, you described the president as the rebel in chief and as an
"alien in the realm of the governing class." Now, President Bush is the son of
a president. He's used his father's aides and Cabinet members as his own
aides and Cabinet members. His father's secretary of state, James Baker, ran
the Florida re-count; Dick Cheney, Powell, Condoleezza Rice were in his
father's administration. President Bush raised more money from big donors
than any presidential candidate in history. So how is he a rebel or an alien
in the realm of the governing class?

Mr. BARNES: Well, Terry, I think in the first place, you probably named
everybody from his father's presidency and campaign that the second President
Bush has used. And of course, Jim Baker he didn't use for anything except the
36 days, and is really reluctant to call on him. President Bush, you know,
decided at the beginning that anyone who worked for his father's presidential
campaign in 2000--in 1992 would not be a part of his campaign. And, of
course, reluctantly at the end he had to call on Jim Baker during the 36 days
of the re-count in Florida.

And here's how the president is a rebel in chief. He's rebelled against the
advise of the foreign policy establishment, the events--particularly in
Washington. He's rebelled against the political community in Washington which
he has sort of shut out. He's certainly rebelled against the press. And I
think, for all the presidents who didn't like the press, he's probably the one
who dislikes the press the most, particularly growing out of his father's
unsuccessful 1992 campaign.

And when you look at his administration, he didn't hire a bunch of people from
Washington. Now, Colin Powell is an exception, who was his first secretary of
state. But most of them were--and Dick Cheney is as well, although Cheney had
served in his father's administration. But most of them are other people.
Look at his White House staff, they're mostly from Texas.

GROSS: My guest is Fred Barnes, and his new book about the Bush presidency is
called "Rebel-in-Chief." This month you wrote in the Wall Street Journal,
"It's time for President Bush to think about a third term." Now, you didn't
mean he that should overturn the Constitution, but rather that he should start
the equivalent of a third term by filling his presidential staff and Cabinet
with new faces. Today the White House chief of staff, Andy Card resigned and
was replaced by budget director Josh Bolten. Is this a sign that the
president has finally listened to you?

Mr. BARNES: Well, I don't know that he's listened to me, but I think he's
accepted the reality of the fact that in his second term, that's in something
of a rut, he needs to do some dramatic things to change that. And I think
this is the first of many personnel changes that we'll see at the White House
with--starting, of course, with Andy Card gone and Josh Bolten coming in.
Josh Bolten, I know, is someone at the White House who believes that fresh
blood is necessary and urgently needed.

GROSS: So you think he needs to make more changes than that, according to the
Wall Street Journal article from early this month. What other changes would
you like to see?

Mr. BARNES: Well, there's many of them. And I think the most dramatic one
would be to anoint a successor to run in 2008 as basically the Bush candidate
for the Republican presidential nomination, and the obvious one is Condoleezza
Rice, the secretary of state, who Bush admires and regards as almost a sister.
Obviously, the place to put her would be vice president. And that would
require Dick Cheney to resign. I think he would do that gladly, actually, and
put Condoleezza Rice in there. And this is the kind of thing, Terry, that
would just grip Washington. You'd have confirmation hearings for the vice
president. It would just change the subject in Washington, and that's what
the president needs.

GROSS: A little distraction from things that are going wrong? Is that what
you're saying?

Mr. BARNES: Well, just a lot of distraction from things that are
controversial and from other things. You'd like to have a subject that you
really want to be front and center, and that would the excitement of a new
administration, or what would seem like a new administration, announcements.
The press would have to cover the confirmation hearings and so on. And it
would change the subject. And presidents, that's a power they have, the power
to change the subject, at least briefly.

GROSS: It's not typical for a vice president to resign. You're suggesting
very major changes. Is this a sign of your lack of--or your loss of
confidence in the vice president?

Mr. BARNES: No, not at all. I think the vice president has done a fine job
and he could move on and do something else in the administration, be a
counselor, be secretary of defense. There are many things he could do, but he
doesn't want to run for president in 2008. He's told me personally, time
after time, that he doesn't want to. And it would be good for the president,
I think, to anoint someone who does want to run. And Condoleezza Rice is the
obvious person.

GROSS: So what about Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld? Is he one of the
people you'd like to see be moved to a different position, or moved out
altogether?

Mr. BARNES: Well, he could be moved to a different position. Certainly he
has his critics both inside and outside the administration, mainly outside.
But, not the Oval Office. The president supported him. But the idea here, I
think, is to really present a new face, a face lift, an overhaul, a
transformation of the Bush administration with some new folks in different
positions and really rejuvenate the White House. Look, to many people this
would appear desperate, and I don't think the president's in a desperate state
yet, but it's just a way to make the last three years of his White House term
a more productive, or at least potentially more productive.

GROSS: What about Karl Rove? Should he stay or go? You know, a lot of
people are saying, `Well, Andrew Card is no longer the White House chief of
staff, but it's Karl Rove that's really running the White House.'

Mr. BARNES: Well, he is the deputy chief of staff right now. And I think,
if you do any overhaul of an administration that doesn't in some way affect
Karl Rove, it's not going to be taken seriously. So my advice would be to
move Karl to Republican National Chairman and let him run the campaign in
2006. Here's a campaign that starts out with Republicans behind, and he's
done great things before. Let him try again.

GROSS: So clearly you want some people moved out of their current positions,
but is there--are there any people from the outside you'd like to see inside?
Are there any people who you'd like to join the staff?

Mr. BARNES: Well, I think there are some people...

GROSS: Yeah, go ahead.

Mr. BARNES: Well, I think there are some people from the outside. I think a
perfect person in the Bush administration would be Joe Lieberman, the senator
from Connecticut, who's a pariah in the Senate Democratic caucus now because
he supports Bush in his foreign policy, particularly in Iraq. If Condoleezza
Rice moved to the vice presidency, it would make a lot of sense to have Joe
Lieberman be Secretary of State. He's someone who would be confirmed, and I
think a real powerful force in the administration.

GROSS: It would be kind of a paradox, wouldn't it, since--after that very
hotly contested election in 2000?

Mr. BARNES: It would be quite a paradox, but there are a lot of paradoxes
and downright contradictions in politics.

GROSS: My guest is Fred Barnes. His new book is called "Rebel-in-Chief."
Barnes co-hosts the program "The Beltway Boys" on the FOX News Channel. We'll
talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: My guest is Fred Barnes and his new book is called "Rebel-in-Chief:
Inside the Bold and Controversial Presidency of George W. Bush." In a forum
recently co-sponsored by the University of Virginia and a group called the
Political Hotline, you said that the Bush people were exhausted by their
problems, and that, quote, "If Iraq turns in a negative direction, the
president could be in a position from which he cannot recover," unquote. Do
you think we've turned in that negative direction from which the president
would not be able to recover?

Mr. BARNES: Well, I think they're treading water now. But once, if they can
form, as they should rapidly, form a permanent government in Iraq, a
government of Sunnis, Shia and Kurds, a unity government, then that will turn
them in the right direction. But, look, Iraq is what the Bush administration
has come down to be about more than anything else because the--even the
spin-offs, such as the Crusade for Democracy, or the desire the change the
Middle East, and so on, they all depend on Iraq. If it's unsuccessful, then
the rest of the Bush foreign policy will be unsuccessful. And--perhaps not
Afghanistan, but certainly most of it. And so the president has a lot riding
on this. I mean, the judgment--history's judgment, on the Bush presidency
will be decided on the basis of Iraq more than anything else.

GROSS: And how do you think we're doing there now? How does it look to you?

Mr. BARNES: I think we're doing a lot better than people think, but I think
there's still a good ways to go. When you--you know, there's an old saying,
Terry, that--somebody told me about an Arab saying, and that is, `The dog
barks, but the caravan moves on.' And the dog's barking. We see a lot of
sectarian strife now, and the insurgency is, though weakened, it's still
obviously able to carry out serious acts of terrorism.

But look what's happened. You know, we had all the things that insurgents
wanted to stop. They wanted to stop the handover of sovereignty, they wanted
to stop the first election, they wanted to stop the formation of an interim
government, then second and third elections they wanted to block, the approval
of a Constitution. Now they want to stop the formation of a new government in
Iraq. And it--and their--and the terrorism is one of the reasons I think it
hasn't formed.

GROSS: Have you had second thoughts about the wisdom of the war in Iraq?

Mr. BARNES: Not one.

GROSS: How come? You seem to have questions about the directions it's
heading in?

Mr. BARNES: Well, that's different, though. I mean, do I--I think it was
the right thing to do. I still think it's the right thing to do. But they're
a lot of problems that have erupted that have--some of which I expected, some
of which I didn't--that have stopped Iraq from becoming a stable democracy
three years after Saddam Hussein was toppled. Now, I didn't expect it to be
stable by now. I thought, frankly, we've moved a little farther down the road
than we have. But there's been a great deal of success there, as there has
been, remains in that society, a great deal of violence. But I think the
intervention and the freeing of 25 million people was the right thing to do.
And that--if you're an Iraqi now and you want to start a newspaper, you can
start one. If you want to start a political party, you can start one.
There's a great deal of freedom in Iraq.

GROSS: You say that the Iraqis are living in freedom now, but a lot of
Iraqis, and certainly American journalists in Iraq, are afraid to leave their
house.

Mr. BARNES: They are, but that's, and that's why we haven't--the job is not
done there by a long shot. There's a great deal to do, particularly in the
Baghdad and Sunni area. But in many other areas, the majority of Iraq, we
don't have quite those problems. But, look, this is a country that has never
experienced democracy before. The Iraqis, the Sunnis, the Shias and the Kurds
are having trouble learning the need for compromise, which has made it hard to
form this permanent government based on the December 15th election. And so,
though the dog barks, though, I do think the caravan continues to move on.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest if Fred Barnes. His new book
about the Bush presidency is called "Rebel-in-Chief." I think what a lot of
critics have trouble with when it comes to the Bush administration is the
sense of spending and cutting taxes at the same time. The Washington Post
said in an editorial, "Bush has racked up more new debt in his five years in
office than the entire debt amassed by the US through 1988. The president's
budget envisions the debt rising to 11.5 trillion by 2011." Are you
comfortable with that level of debt?

Mr. BARNES: Sure. The--you know, one of the great things about President
Reagan and President Bush is they haven't been spooked by the deficit. What
matters is economic growth, unemployment and jobs. And they've produced
those. I mean when President Bush, when he came into office, he had a
recession, he had 9/11, he had the stock market collapse, which was the most
important thing, which had raised tremendous revenues in the last several
years of the Clinton administration, and the president realized what he needed
to do was spur the economy, get it going again. And then of course we've had
the war, and we've had Katrina, and many of these other things which have
jacked up the deficit. But by historic standards, it's not that great. I
mean, it's--I think in 2005 it was 2.6 percent of GDP. Not great but
certainly not much higher than the average of the deficit over the last 40
years. I think the average is something like 2.5.

GROSS: Bruce Bartlett, the conservative economist, who has a book criticizing
the president, describes the president as having bankrupted the country.

Mr. BARNES: Yeah, I don't know what he--I haven't read his book. Look, I've
known Bruce for 25 years, and liked him. I don't know--but I haven't read his
book "Imposters." So I really don't know what he bases that on. That's not
something that I believe is true, but maybe he can explain it in a way that I
might find more convincing.

GROSS: Well, I think basically what he is saying is that this is the kind of
debt you can never really pay off, that generations will have to, will remain
in debt and that we are now going to be kind of at the mercy of countries like
China to buy our debt in order to stay afloat.

Mr. BARNES: Mm-hmm. Well, why wouldn't they want to but it? Where would
you buy debt if you were a foreign country? What is the safest debt you could
buy anywhere in the world than the United States?

GROSS: But doesn't that give them--but does that give them a certain control
over our financial future?

Mr. BARNES: Not at all. Somebody--if they don't buy it, somebody else will
buy it. The--they're smart in buying it. If the Japanese buy it, if they--I
don't see them as having any control. I don't think that--that's not a great
worry I have anyway. Maybe Bruce has that worry, but--and I haven't talked to
him recently, though I have many times over the last 25 years.

GROSS: Fred Barnes, I'm wondering what your reaction was to the memo from
Vice President's Cheney's staff--and this is the memo that kind of outlined
what his requirements are when he's traveling on the road. And one of those
requirements is that the TVs in his hotel rooms must be turned to FOX News.
It's your network. So, what was your reaction when you saw that?

Mr. BARNES: Good. Well, thank heavens. That--you know I always tell--I go
to hotels and they really don't have FOX. I tell them, `You know, you really
need to get FOX.' The--I noticed I saw John Kerry's specifications now that
were just published on Monday, and he didn't have--he didn't require FOX.
The--no, I guess I knew ahead of time that Cheney was a great FOX watcher. He
tends to be, you know, the--FOX doesn't get as many casual viewers. Many of
them are chronic viewers, if you want to call them that, and I'm glad Dick
Cheney's one.

GROSS: Fred Barnes, thank you very much for talking with us.

Mr. BARNES: I enjoyed it.

GROSS: Fred Barnes' new book is called "Rebel-in-Chief." He's executive
editor of The Weekly Standard and he co-hosts "The Beltway Boys" on the FOX
New channel. You can read an excerpt from his book on our Web site,
freshair.npr.org.

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.

(Announcements)

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Sign-off: Fresh Air
TERRY GROSS, host:

You may know them as Mike D, MCA and Ad-Rock--or as Michael Diamond, Adam
Yauch and Adam Horovitz. On the next FRESH AIR, the Beastie Boys. For their
new concert film, "Awesome," they gave cameras to their fans in the audience.
Join us for the next FRESH AIR.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.