Other segments from the episode on March 17, 2023
Transcript
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I am Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. It was no surprise but still a spectacular showing when the film "Everything Everywhere All At Once" swept the Academy Awards. It won seven Oscars, including best picture, best director and best actress for Michelle Yeoh, our guest today. She was the first Asian performer to win that award. But Michelle Yeoh has been a movie star for decades. Appearing in Hong Kong action films since the 1980s, she was widely praised for her work in the 2000 film "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." Her other movies include the Bond film "Tomorrow Never Dies" and "Crazy Rich Asians." Michelle Yeoh spoke last year to FRESH AIR guest interviewer Tonya Mosley. Here's Tonya.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TONYA MOSLEY: When Michelle Yeoh read the script for "Everything Everywhere All At Once," she gave a big sigh of relief and said, finally, a project that would allow her to be the lead and show everyone what she was capable of - playing a multidimensional character who could be sad, real and funny. "Everything Everywhere All At Once" follows Evelyn Wang, a Chinese American immigrant mother who made a decision decades ago to leave her parents behind and follow her boyfriend to America.
Years later, Evelyn is living out the underwhelming consequences of that decision until she is presented with alternate versions of her life, from the glamorous life of an actress to a martial arts expert and an even wackier alternate path where people have hot dogs for fingers. Michelle Yeoh embodies Evelyn through this multiverse while telling the story of a woman contending with her own life choices.
Michelle Yeoh, welcome back to FRESH AIR.
MICHELLE YEOH: Hello, Tonya. Thank you for having me today.
MOSLEY: You know, Michelle, people love this film, but it's also kind of difficult to describe what it's about. How do you do it?
YEOH: (Laughter) You're right. It is very difficult. It's like five genres of - you know, in one movie. It's science fiction. It's comedy. It's drama. It's action. It's a little horror. But I think the core of the story, it's about a mother and daughter. Through all the multi-universes (ph), they are searching for each other because what we can't do is give up on each other and give up on family.
MOSLEY: You know, I was struck by the introduction of your character. She was so beaten down, juggling so many things. There are piles of paperwork everywhere in the back office of the laundromat she runs with her husband. There's a leak in the ceiling - and this far-off look in her eyes of someone who has just too much to handle all at once. And I'll tell you, for me, it reminded me of the weight that we all carry - the laundry list...
YEOH: Correct.
MOSLEY: ...The weight specifically that women carry.
YEOH: You have a great insight into the film. That's exactly what it was. I think the Daniels did a wonderful job of writing about this very ordinary housewife, Asian immigrant woman - came here to look for the American dream, to hope, to find and be successful and have a good life not just for herself and her husband, but for her family and, in this case, her daughter.
But I think one of the most important thing for me as an actor was this ordinary housewife needed her own voice. You know, she's the woman that you pass by when you go to Chinatown or in the supermarket. It could be any immigrant woman who has just got the laundry list, as you've put it, and, you know, bent on the weight of everything, the responsibility all on her shoulder. That's why she walks - she walks bent over a little, hunched back, because she is carrying a lot of weight. And, you know, she - because of the nature of her job, her spine is a little bit bent because - you know, of dragging heavy laundry constantly. So I felt that it was so important for someone like that to be given a voice and then to be shown that she is actually a superheroine.
MOSLEY: You know, it's been reported that, originally, Jackie Chan was supposed to play the lead in this film. And it's hard to imagine, but you were going to be his wife?
YEOH: (Laughter) I think it's a common thing to do. You know, when they think superhero, someone who does that, it's always the guys. They seem to be, like, always first in line for it. So that's why when I received the script, I - it was such a overwhelming sense of relief. It was like, yes, finally, why is it we - all the women cannot be the superhero, you know? It just didn't make sense.
And I think the Daniels being the Daniels, they looked at it. I think they pursued it for a bit. And then they realized, we're telling the same old story if it was really Jackie Chan and myself as playing the husband and wife and he is the one who goes on the multiverse thing. But I think the good news was they turn around, and they say, let's start again. Let's do this. And - because the Daniels are surrounded by very, very strong women. So I think they took great pleasure. And I think it's an homage to all the strong women who are around them. And they made themselves as the villains, as antagonists in this story, which I thought was really, really delightful.
MOSLEY: And in the film, your daughter, who is played by Stephanie Hsu, is looking, as we said, for a mother that she can connect with in every universe. And your character, Evelyn, doesn't really want to repeat the alienation she felt from her parents growing up. But even still, she's doing that. There is this scene where your daughter is leaving the laundromat, and you want to give her one piece of parting advice. Can you describe to us what you were saying to her and ultimately how she interpreted it?
YEOH: You know, this was the - I think a lot of immigrant parents, the first generation - when they come here, they have to make a conscious choice for the next generation. It's like, do we hold on very firmly to all our cultural, our language and everything, and we stick to a - you know, like, a group of immigrants as well? Or do we make them or help them blend in so that they will be able to fit in better? So it - I think it's a very, very hard choice.
And I think it's not just the first-generation immigrants. I think parents, even today, from different cultures face the same thing. It's like, you know, if we want them to fit in better, maybe they can - they should just speak English. But then, it's a shame if they don't speak their own language, which is what you find with Joy in "Everything Everywhere All At Once," is, like, she has morphed into a true American - ABC, American-born Chinese, in that sense. So she doesn't really speak the language. And the worst thing is, like, we find that a lot of Asian parents, especially the older generation, they don't really give - they are more critical in the sense that the feeling is, if I tell you, you are great in everything, then you will walk away thinking you don't need to learn anymore because I'm already so great.
So they always say - like, in this scene that you're describing, she wants to talk to her daughter. She wants her to understand that, you know, she accepts the fact that she is gay. She has a white girlfriend. But it's impossible to communicate that to her father from a previous generation because in his eyes, Evelyn would have been a total failure. As she is a failure as a daughter, now she is a failure as a mother because she can't even teach her daughter to be proper. So there is so much confusion and so much emotional contradiction that Evelyn is facing.
The first words that come out from her mouth is, like, you are getting fat. It's another criticism, you know? But it's a very common thing that we say to our children. Instead of, oh, you're looking so beautiful today, they'll say, oh, I think you need a haircut. Or, you know, maybe you need to go to the gym. You need to drop some pounds. So - but the first thing they always give them is food because that is the way they show how much they love them, how much they care for them. The best food is always reserved for them. So what it shows here very clearly is how the misunderstandings occur. And the worst - they don't know how to communicate. That chasm gets bigger and bigger until to the point where everything that comes out from the mouth seems to be hurtful. It's like a dig. It's like - it's almost like Joy feels, I'm hurting so much. When I say things to you, I want you to feel that hurt, so I'm going to reply with a very hurtful answer. And that for her is one of the easiest solution, which is not a solution at all.
MOSLEY: I'm thinking about your physicality. And I actually read somewhere that your early films didn't even have scripts - so no dialogue at all.
YEOH: Yes, this was the old days in Hong Kong and the '80s. I mean, they made movies so quickly. They had a very simple formula if it was an action movie, a comedy. And they churned them out in, like, weeks. I mean, we would be filming on Monday. The movie would be out by Friday midnight. And that was how they worked. They worked fast. And the other good thing was nobody really knew my voice at the beginning of my career because they had someone dub it 'cause, you know...
MOSLEY: Right.
YEOH: ...We didn't record - we didn't have synced sound at that time. So to make it to be able to be so quick, it's like, sometimes, we would go on the scene and go, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, you know, and look in different directions (laughter). This is terrible. I shouldn't be telling all these stories. But at that point, that was...
MOSLEY: No, we love to know the secrets.
YEOH: (Laughter). That was the craziness of the glory days and the old style of Hong Kong filmmaking. But there were the exceptions. I mean, there were amazing scripts that were still being shot. Then we had some of ours where we had no scripts. You know, it was just the writer or director writing it as we were filming.
MOSLEY: Wow. It sounds like things were moving so fast.
YEOH: (Laughter). But it was the same for the action sequences. We don't have rehearsal time, so we would get all dressed up. We would go to the set, and our stunt coordinators and stunt guys would be choreographing it 'cause they arrive that day, and they choreograph what they are given with - they look at the set, and they will decide what will happen on the spot. And then we will learn it and shoot it. So, you know, we - there was never any rehearsals.
And I remember the first the first time when I was doing "Tomorrow Never Dies" in 1997. I love her to death - Barbara Broccoli and Michael Wilson, my producers, said, well, you know, we would love to see how you - the Hong Kong style of martial arts in a Bond movie. So she hired a team of us, a team of them who I had worked with and brought them over from Hong Kong. But prior to that, they actually sent a mock-up of the whole stage. And I can - I will never forget the wonder of those boys when they looked at it, and they go like, this is a mock-up of - 'cause they never have that that privilege or luxury. They normally get to a real set and then find out, what are the things that they have to do?
So when they finally arrived in London and we were shooting, you know - we start at 6. We're on for hair and makeup and all that. And someone came to me and said, what happened to your stunt team? They're all sitting in the green room. And so I went over and say, hey, guys. You're giving us a bad name. All of you are supposed to be in on the set. Then they turned around. The head stunt coordinator turned to me, and he said, we already have five different versions, and we have already recorded it. So we're waiting to show the director what - which is the one that he's more favored to. So they work at such a speed because in a sense, they are forced to. They have been trained to do that.
DAVIES: We're listening to the conversation our guest interviewer, Tanya Mosley, recorded with actor Michelle Yeoh, who walked away with a best actress Oscar for her role in the film "Everything Everywhere All At Once." We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SON LUX'S "CLAIR DE LUNE (PIED AU PIANO)")
DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our interview with Michelle Yeoh, who stars in the film that swept the Oscars, "Everything Everywhere All At Once." Michelle Yeoh received one of those Oscars for best actress. Yeoh's other films include Hong Kong action films like "Supercop," the James Bond film "Tomorrow Never Dies," "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" and "Crazy Rich Asians." She spoke with our guest interviewer, Tanya Mosley.
MOSLEY: Michelle Yeoh, what was the event that turned you into an action star?
YEOH: My first movie, I played a social worker. And we were bullied by, you know, the juvenile delinquents who took great pleasure in teasing us and giving us a hard time. And then the guys who were the martial arts expert were the ones who would rescue us constantly. So when I watched them, I went to my producers, and I say, you know what? I would love to be able to try to do martial arts. They looked at me and thought I was insane. Then they thought, well, you know, she's a foreign girl. She must be insane. (Laughter). But then they thought, well, what do we have to lose?
So - but they did a very good - they packaged me with, you know, the top comedians so that at least if I fail badly, the movie would still have a chance to be successful because the comedians were very well-known in Hong Kong. So I think the only thing I said was like, if I fight, I have to fight. Like, you cannot differentiate it's a girl fighting or a boy fighting. She's fighting for the reason of - and so they made me a cop, a detective. So when she would be faced with dangerous situations, there was a good reason for her to be showing these kind of skills.
So I went into training, like, with these - the stunt boys and all that. And I think they were very curious to see this young girl who wanted to play in their sandbox. And I was very fortunate. They were very agreeable to it. So - and I had some of the best instructors, who taught me how to protect myself. And - but then you did learn that they took the blows. I mean, they didn't - they - you know, people like Jackie and Jet and Sammo and Yuen Biao - all the top action stars, they did not get it handed it to them on a silver platter. And so I remember thinking, if I want to join this boys club, you better be able to take the blows as well.
MOSLEY: Right.
YEOH: So yeah. And - but it took a little bit of - you know, I had to persuade them. I had to demonstrate to them that I was - I deserved to be there. I think that's the most important thing, is that, you know, we fight for gender equality. We fight for all these kind of things. And when we are given the opportunity to be able to do it, we must be able to prove our worth. I think that's the simple message.
MOSLEY: Is that your motivation? - because you've done a lot of action films, and you've done some really difficult stunts. You're talking about Jackie Chan being physical and taking those blows. But you - I mean, riding motorcycles onto trains, falling off a train, landing on a car - you really put your body in danger.
YEOH: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: What is so appealing about that kind of work - the challenge, pushing yourself, getting your body to do it?
YEOH: All of the above and plus a bit of insanity going on, you know? I think at that time, it was, like, the most incredible adrenaline rush and because it's a physical challenge and the mental challenge that you overcome after, thank God, the stunt is successful.
And I remember - the very first stunt that I did in my first action film - and I will never forget that one because even Quentin Tarantino can, frame for frame, tell you how it was done. I was - I'm on the second floor, sitting on a railing, and two guys, like, swipe my head with their swords. So I - hanging on the balcony, on the railing, I bend backwards, go through a pane of glass and drag these two guys down onto the first floor in one take. And at that point, the - I didn't know how to think of the danger, the repercussion, if things did not go right 'cause I only knew how to focus on how to get the stunt done properly. I was probably too fearless for my own good, plus the fact that, you know, physically and mentally, I was so fit. So that egged me on because I did feel that I had a lot of things to prove to stay in this - what was the boys club, and to constantly demonstrate that I deserved to be there.
MOSLEY: You keep a diary. What does that look like - a diary of each of your characters?
YEOH: Oh, so I write, like, what Evelyn would need to do, like a list of her shopping or what she needs, like the painting that they'll - so I write it all out so that I have a reference because once - for me, the more prepped I am, then when I walk onto the set, the Daniels or any director can throw new, you know, curveballs at me, the actor, and I would be able to respond.
MOSLEY: You know, there's one element of the film, though - there's a separation, OK? So the name initially was Michelle. And you said, no, we have to change it to something else. They changed the character to Evelyn. But there is one of the - in one of the multiverses, we see that Evelyn is...
YEOH: Where she was a movie star (laughter).
MOSLEY: Yes, she...
YEOH: Yes.
MOSLEY: And the film uses footage of you at premieres in real life. It's really trippy.
YEOH: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: What purpose do you think this particular storyline actually serves in the movie?
YEOH: No, when I said to them, oh, you have to take away the name Michelle, they're like, but, no, you know? It was so cool 'cause in one of the multiverse, she jumps into a place where she doesn't go off with Waymond, and she becomes, like, this movie star. But she's chained to this. She doesn't have a husband in this universe. She doesn't have a daughter in this universe. And in - and they already planned using, you know, excerpts from real life, red carpets and things like that. And we were very lucky that, you know, we were given the permission to do that. It's just to show Evelyn Wang, yes, if you had that, what you would have is fame. You would have a lot of flashbulbs, like, flashing in front of you. But you don't have a life, which is very different from Michelle Yeoh. Michelle Yeoh, the movie actress, has a very full family life.
MOSLEY: Michelle Yeoh, thank you so much.
YEOH: Thank you, Tonya. I've really enjoyed speaking to you and listening to you, actually (laughter).
DAVIES: Michelle Yeoh, the winner of the best actress Academy Award, spoke with our guest interviewer Tonya Mosley. Tonya is also the host of the podcast "Truth Be Told," which has a new season coming in April, exploring advances in the use of psychedelics to treat PTSD due to racial trauma. Coming up, Terry's interview with Adam Sandler. He'll be receiving the Mark Twain Award for American humor, joining past recipients, including Richard Pryor, Carl Reiner, Lily Tomlin and Jon Stewart. And FRESH AIR television critic David Bianculli will review "Lucky Hank," the new miniseries starring Bob Odenkirk based on Richard Russo's novel "Straight Man." I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF JESSICA WILLIAMS' "ON SONNY'S SIDE")
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Adam Sandler is famous for his comedy films and his performances on "Saturday Night Live" in the '90s. For that work, he'll be awarded the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor this weekend at the Kennedy Center, joining an impressive list of recipients that includes Jonathan Winters, Carl Reiner, Whoopi Goldberg, Steve Martin, Eddie Murphy, Tina Fey, Jon Stewart and Richard Pryor, who was the first recipient in 1998. But Adam Sandler has also given some terrific performances in dramas.
In the 2019 thriller "Uncut Gems," he played Howard Ratner, a jeweler in Manhattan's Diamond District who always has a deal or con going and never stops talking. He's also a gambler deep in debt to a loan shark whose goons are after him. The film was directed by Josh and Benny Safdie, whose father worked in the Diamond District when they were kids. Terry interviewed Adam Sandler and the Safdie brothers in 2019 when "Uncut Gems" was released. We'll hear about Adam Sandler's work in comedy later in this interview. But let's start with a scene from "Uncut Gems," with Howard, Sandler's character, placing bets with his bookie on the Boston Celtics and Kevin Garnett.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "UNCUT GEMS")
MIKE FRANCESA: (As Gary) What do you want? I already made your bet.
ADAM SANDLER: (As Howard Ratner) I know. I know. I got to change the bet. I got $21,000 here. So you add it onto the 19 grand, that's $40,000 in all.
FRANCESA: (As Gary) Scrap the whole bet?
SANDLER: (As Howard Ratner) Scrap the whole bet. I want to make a six-way parlay, Celtics-Sixers game. What's the line-up?
FRANCESA: (As Gary) Still plus one.
SANDLER: (As Howard Ratner) Plus one. OK. So I want the Celtics to cover. I want the Celtics halftime. I want Garnett points and rebounds, Garnett blocked shots, Celtics opening tip. Do you take lightning bets?
FRANCESA: (As Gary) Yeah, but you don't want any part of lightning bets. Come on.
SANDLER: (As Howard Ratner) Fine, $1,000 a point, OK? Take this. And this is a gift from me.
FRANCESA: (As Gary) What's this? What is this?
SANDLER: (As Howard Ratner) I just - for just tolerating me for all this time, OK?
FRANCESA: (As Gary) No, no, no. I already have a Rolex. I don't need your watch. Listen; this probably fell off a truck anyway. Listen; but what do you know? Garnett this, Garnett that - what do you know?
SANDLER: (As Howard Ratner) I don't know. I just know.
FRANCESA: (As Gary) Well, I'll tell you what I know. That's the dumbest [expletive] bet I ever heard of.
SANDLER: (As Howard Ratner) I disagree.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS, HOST:
Adam Sandler and Josh and Benny Safdie, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the film and the awards and nominations.
JOSH SAFDIE: Oh, thank you so much.
BENNY SAFDIE: Thank you.
SANDLER: Thank you, Terry.
GROSS: Adam Sandler, you found the voice for this character. This character is a fast talker. He's always trying to convince people or sell people on something. He's just always taking chances. He always says things he can't really back up. And he doesn't stop talking.
SANDLER: Yes.
GROSS: You found the rhythm and you found the music in that character's voice.
SANDLER: Right. Yeah.
GROSS: Can you describe finding the voice and what that voice is?
SANDLER: Well, that voice is - in my head, Howard talks a lot not only to - he just wants control. And he likes hitting. And he's a very sensitive guy. He's sensitive to what everyone's thinking in the room. So he takes care - he's talking to one person dead on. And then he hears something going on on the right. He makes sure and take care of that situation, includes everybody. He's a guy who likes to run the room. And so that's why, he's just hypersensitive. It's, to me, very stand-up-comedian-like. When you're onstage and you're performing at a little club and you're telling your jokes the 10 people in front of you laugh but the guy on the left doesn't laugh, you'll see most comedians will go over to the guy who's not laughing and try to include him in a certain way. And I feel Howard's sort of like that.
B SAFDIE: Totally.
GROSS: The main character, Howard, is a big basketball fan. It's like, he not only bets on it.
SANDLER: Yeah.
GROSS: But he loves the sport.
SANDLER: Right.
GROSS: And there's a scene that's almost, like, funny - I don't know whether that's intentional or not - in which he's - it's a very high-pressure situation that he's in. But he's basically watching the game on TV. He's got a lot of money on it.
SANDLER: Right.
GROSS: And he's kind of, like, narrating the game. It's like he's a sportscaster on TV.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: And he's, like, you know, like, doing the game.
SANDLER: Right.
GROSS: And, Adam Sandler, it's - you're so manic when you're doing it.
SANDLER: Yeah.
B SAFDIE: (Laughter).
GROSS: And I'm wondering if you did any of that as a kid, like, if you'd watch a game and get so caught up in it, like, you'd be the sportscaster.
SANDLER: Oh, man, that's good. That's good. I mean, I am, in real life, since I'm a kid, I've been very vocal watching games. And I'm a true insane person in my house with sports. And the wife and family are like, oh, no. Oh, no. The Yankees have a big game today. And, like, they think about leaving the house.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDLER: Just I have big mood swings and really scream at the screen sometimes. And, yes, it was fun to be Howard. But also, I did connect with Howard a lot. It's so funny. And, Terry, when you bet on a game, which I do bet sometimes. And I - you watch so close when you have money on a game and it means something to you. It's not only the money. It's, you made this decision in your head. You told everyone on the planet this is going to happen.
J SAFDIE: Totally.
SANDLER: So you're watching the game with such - it's just a different energy. And honest to God, when you make a bet on something and the game starts at 7:05, it - you start - your body is shaking at 2 in the afternoon going, it's coming, it's coming.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDLER: And so you're - when you get to that actual game, there is so much excitement. You can't contain it. You're screaming at each thing. The funniest thing these guys said is at the beginning of the movie when I make my first bet and you see my first bet. I'm carrying on like a crazy man. And you see the score is 2 to nothing.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDLER: It's like, nothing has happened yet. I'm still like, oh, my God. We're in trouble now.
(LAUGHTER)
J SAFDIE: It's manifest destiny, kind of.
GROSS: Do you make, like, big bets on the games?
SANDLER: Well, you know, luckily, we have money in the bank, so I don't put the family in jeopardy.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: I heard, I heard (laughter).
SANDLER: No one's nervous except me, for some reason.
GROSS: You, yeah (laughter).
SANDLER: Yeah.
GROSS: So the character of Howard is Jewish. And a lot of the people in who - in the Diamond District in New York are Jewish. And there's a scene at Howard's family Seder. And his extended family is there. And I think it's perfect that the part of the Seder that you show is the recitation of the plagues - the lice, the pestilence, the hail, blood, frogs, boils, slaying all the firstborn. This is God's punishment of the Egyptians who were enslaving the Jews and refusing to acknowledge God. So...
SANDLER: That's always the biggest hit at the table, isn't it?
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Yes. And - but I figured...
B SAFDIE: Yeah. Well, dying is a big hit.
SANDLER: Oh, yeah, dying.
GROSS: Since everything is going wrong for the character, the plague seems to be, like, the perfect part of the Seder, to...
J SAFDIE: Exactly. Exactly.
GROSS: ...To emphasize. But I'd like you to all share with us what Seders were like in your family when you were growing up.
J SAFDIE: I remember one - in one Seder, post-recline, we had this relative named Shaul (ph).
(LAUGHTER)
B SAFDIE: Oh, yeah.
J SAFDIE: You know, these names. And he would entertain everybody with these stories. And they were - there's no way they were realistic. One of them was about him wrestling a whale (laughter).
B SAFDIE: He was swimming in the ocean. And this eye showed up next to him. And he beat up the whale. I was like, what?
SANDLER: Ah, this did happen. Don't take it away from Shaul.
J SAFDIE: But the recline after the meal is also a very important part of the holiday.
GROSS: This is when everybody passes out from having eaten too much.
(LAUGHTER)
J SAFDIE: Yeah.
SANDLER: Good one, Terry.
J SAFDIE: But - and that's when you kind of - you start to see people section off, the people who you're close with. And you really are taking in the night.
B SAFDIE: And there is that moment after the kind of - it was - yeah, there was - one side was more Reformed than the other, so you'd have different levels of, like, how deep it goes and how long that Seder is.
SANDLER: Yeah. Yeah. yeah.
J SAFDIE: But that moment after the Seder, where you spent all this time, and it's just - you can just be with your family.
SANDLER: That was the best.
J SAFDIE: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDLER: Yes. Yes. I'll tell you, my father, Terry, wasn't afraid to skip a page or two.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDLER: It was like, I would see my father eyeing some food, and I'd be like, oh, good, he's about to skip three pages. He's hungry.
(LAUGHTER)
DAVIES: We're listening to an interview with Adam Sandler and Josh and Benny Safdie about their movie "Uncut Gems" - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE INTERNET SONG, "ROLL (BURBANK FUNK)")
DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. This weekend, Adam Sandler will receive the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor at the Kennedy Center. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with Sandler, who starred in the film "Uncut Gems," written and directed by Josh and Benny Safdie. Sandler played Howard Ratner, a Diamond District jeweler and inveterate gambler.
GROSS: So, Adam Sandler, you've done a lot of comedy about being Jewish. What did being Jewish mean in your family when you were growing up?
SANDLER: It was definitely a big part of us. And, you know, we went to temple, you know, not every Friday. It happened once or twice a month. My mother was very heavily involved in the temple and helping out and doing charities and B'nai B'rith and all these organizations. My mother was very - when she was a kid, was kosher and from an orthodox family. And then when she married my dad, they - I think it was Conservative for a bit, and then they became Reformed. We - I grew up Reformed.
And it was just - we weren't a very religious family. We were just very - my parents were proud to be Jewish and made sure we were proud and just, you know, celebrate fun holidays and know our history and, also, just defend our history when people were saying things that weren't - I remember when - that was kind of big in our house, that something negative's being said or an anti-Semitic remark or that - don't let it go unheard. Make sure that you acknowledge it and correct it or, you know, stand up for the - your family.
GROSS: When you were young, you moved to New Hampshire...
SANDLER: Yes.
GROSS: ...And went to a school where there were very few Jews. I think there were, like, two Jews in your class or something.
SANDLER: Right. Sure.
GROSS: So did that make you more conscious of being Jewish? And were you seen...
SANDLER: Probably.
GROSS: ...As being different as a result of it?
SANDLER: I'm sure when I lived in Brooklyn and, you know, we were next to the Epsteins, it was a lot easier...
(LAUGHTER)
SANDLER: ...Than - it was always me and one other Jewish kid in class, and when we had to say, like, we're not coming to school for Yom Kippur, that was like - we'd look at each other like, here it goes. Let's see how this goes over.
(LAUGHTER)
J SAFDIE: But if it wasn't for that, we wouldn't have had "The Hanukkah Song."
SANDLER: I guess.
(CROSSTALK)
GROSS: "The Hanukkah Song" - I love "The Hanukkah Song." And we're going to play it now, if that's OK with you, because...
SANDLER: Oh, my goodness.
J SAFDIE: Amazing.
GROSS: ...This is so wonderful. I love this song. We'll play the first version of it that you did...
SANDLER: Got you.
GROSS: ...On "Saturday Night Live." And here's how it came out.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
SANDLER: (Singing) Put on your yarmulke. Here comes Hanukkah - so much funukkah (ph) to celebrate Hanukkah. Hanukkah is the festival of lights. Instead of one day of presents, we have eight crazy nights. But when you feel like the only kid in town without a Christmas tree, here's a list of people who are Jewish just like you and me.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDLER: David Lee Roth lights the menorah. So do Kirk Douglas, James Caan and the late Dinah Shore. Guess who eats together at the Carnegie Deli? Bowzer from Sha Na Na and Arthur Fonzarelli.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDLER: (Singing) Paul Newman's half-Jewish, and Goldie Hawn's half, too. Put them together - what a fine-looking Jew.
(LAUGHTER)
B SAFDIE: Yeah, man.
J SAFDIE: Wow.
GROSS: (Laughter).
SANDLER: That was some good Jewish people right there. That was exciting. I knew Arthur Fonzarelli would get an applause break, man.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Adam Sandler, how did you start doing music in your comedy? Did you want to be in a band when you were growing up?
SANDLER: Yes. Yes. Yes.
GROSS: Were you ever in a band?
SANDLER: Yes, I was in a bunch of bands, Terry. I was in a band in sixth grade. Me and Lex Lianos - he was the drummer. I was the guitar player. We were in a band called Still Young...
J SAFDIE: I love that.
GROSS: (Laughter).
SANDLER: ...In sixth grade.
J SAFDIE: That's unbelievable.
SANDLER: And we played at the school talent show. We played "House Of The Rising Sun." We brought the house down, man. We did all right, me and old Lexi. And then I got to NYU. So the band broke up in New Hampshire because everyone went to different colleges. And I thought maybe I'd start a band at NYU. And then I saw these guys playing. And everybody was literally 20 times better than me. I was like, what the hell is going on at this school? Everybody was Eddie Van Halen.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDLER: And so I said, yeah, yeah - and I did stand-up in high school. I did it one time at the end of high school. My brother talked me into it. And I said, let me get back into that stand-up thing, man. I can't compete with these suckers.
B SAFDIE: The thing is, when you do stand-up - oh, my God. That's so hard, you know? It's like - I imagine them looking at you being like, oh, my God. How the hell do you do that, you know?
SANDLER: I was dumb enough to not even know it was hard. I was just like, I can't handle the guitar.
B SAFDIE: But the guitar - but the music - I mean, the Farley track from the last special is...
SANDLER: Yes. Yes.
B SAFDIE: ...Unbelievable. That solo - I feel Farley in the room, you know.
SANDLER: That's cool.
B SAFDIE: It's very cool.
SANDLER: That's cool. Thank you.
GROSS: No, that is so moving. That song that you did, like, part of it's really funny. This was when you hosted "Saturday Night Live"...
SANDLER: Yeah.
GROSS: ...In 2019. And it was your first time back since you were...
SANDLER: Yeah.
GROSS: ...Fired...
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: ...And which you also sang about.
SANDLER: Yeah. Right.
GROSS: But, no, this song is so moving and funny. In fact, can we hear a little bit of it? Is that all right? We have it cued up ready to play.
SANDLER: Sure. Thank you.
GROSS: Yeah, OK. So this is the tribute to the late Chris Farley, who died of a drug overdose. I guess it was...
SANDLER: Man, that's...
GROSS: Is that 2002 or something?
SANDLER: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right.
GROSS: It was couple of years after he left the show, which is the same year...
SANDLER: Maybe - yeah.
GROSS: ...You left the show. Anyway, so here's Adam Sandler hosting "Saturday Night Live," singing about Chris Farley in a very Springsteen-ish...
SANDLER: Yes. Yes, for sure.
GROSS: ...Kind of mode.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
SANDLER: (Playing guitar, singing) First time I saw him, he was sweeter than honey. Plaid jacket and belt too tight, and he wasn't even being funny. Then, he cartwheeled around the room and slow-danced with the cleaning lady. He was a one-man party. You know I'm talking about - I'm talking about my friend Chris Farley.
(APPLAUSE)
SANDLER: (Singing) On Saturday night, my man would always deliver whether he was the bumblebee girl or living (imitating Matt Foley) in a van down by the river.
Oh, that sounded cool, man. Thank you.
GROSS: It was great. How did you start combining music and comedy? - because you wanted to be a musician and realized, though, there were people much better than you. Then, you got into comedy and probably realized, like, oh, my God, there are brilliant comics.
SANDLER: Yeah.
GROSS: But you carved out, like, this really unique place for yourself, both in the kind of comedy you ended up doing, but, you know, in combining music and comedy together.
SANDLER: Right. Yeah. I think it was - I don't know the exact thing. My roommate Tim Herlihy, who I write most of my comedies with, I think he might have brought it up. And, you know, I wrote a song parody or something. And I knew once I had a guitar in my hand and I was on stage - I used to get so scared on stage and so nervous when I didn't have a guitar. And I'd forget my lines. I'd forget my jokes, that kind of thing. And then, when I started playing guitar on stage and singing funny tunes, I had more confidence than usual. At least I could - I knew I could play guitar a little bit, and I knew the lines already from the song. I was like, OK, I memorized that, so let me just try that.
When you're just doing stand-up and you got to go from joke to joke to joke and you forget the order or you forget what the heck the punchline is or what the subject was, oh, man, you're - that is a rough one. Especially, I was so young, and I'd stare at people going, we paid for this idiot and he's forgetting his lines? So the guitar helped relax me.
GROSS: What was your self-image when you were young?
SANDLER: Man, I was cocky as - I can't believe how cocky. When I look at pictures of me, I'm like, that idiot was cocky? I really thought I was so good at so many things. Even in college, I was cocky. I don't know what the hell my problem was. And then, the smarter I got, the less cocky I got. I was like, oof.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDLER: The more people I met - that's what happened. The more people I met, I was like, this guy knows everything. I know nothing. Why am I so confident?
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: All right. Adam Sandler, Josh and Benny Safdie, thank you so much for coming to our show.
SANDLER: We had a great time. Thank you.
J SAFDIE: Thank you.
B SAFDIE: Thank you. Thank you for having us, Terry.
DAVIES: Terry's interview with Adam Sandler and the Safdie brothers was recorded in 2019. This weekend, Adam Sandler will receive the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor at the Kennedy Center. The event will be broadcast nationally on March 26. Coming up, television critic David Bianculli reviews "Lucky Hank," the new miniseries starring Bob Odenkirk based on Richard Russo's novel "Straight Man." This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE DAVE BRUBECK QUARTET'S "UNSQUARE DANCE")
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. This Sunday AMC presents its third series featuring comedian and now-dramatic actor Bob Odenkirk. The first, of course, was the long-running series "Breaking Bad" in which he played a supporting role as shady lawyer Saul Goodman. The second was the equally impressive spinoff show, "Better Call Saul." Now Odenkirk is back playing a new character, a college English professor with writer's block, daddy issues and overly pampered students. Two episodes of the new series, "Lucky Hank," were available for a preview. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.
DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: "Breaking Bad" and "Better Call Saul" are two of my favorite TV dramas ever, and I constantly was bowled over by the subtle, unflashy but amazing acting by Bob Odenkirk on those two series. So to see him play a brand-new character in a brand-new TV series, one based on the 1997 novel "Straight Man" by Richard Russo, was something I was really looking forward to. Having seen the first two installments of this new AMC series, "Lucky Hank," I can say that so far, it's mostly establishing the conflicts and setups, but I'm eager for more.
Odenkirk plays William Henry Devereaux Jr., a tenured English professor and department chair at Railton College in rural Pennsylvania. He wrote an acclaimed first novel, but that was decades ago, and he's never produced a second. His father, a powerful literary critic, hasn't even phoned his son in 15 years. His faculty colleagues are pretentious and self-obsessed, and so are his students. One of them, played by Jackson Kelly, actually has the overinflated self-image to compare himself to the author of "The Canterbury Tales." It's a notion that Odenkirk, as the professor, shoots down vehemently in front of the entire class.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LUCKY HANK")
BOB ODENKIRK: (As William Henry Devereaux Jr.) It's a tricky thing comparing yourself to Chaucer.
JACKSON KELLY: (As Barto Williams-Stevens) Yeah. We don't know that I'm not the next Chaucer.
ODENKIRK: (As William Henry Devereaux Jr.) We do know.
KELLY: (As Barto Williams-Stevens) All due respect, you would not know.
ODENKIRK: (As William Henry Devereaux Jr.) All due respect, a cat would know.
KELLY: (As Barto Williams-Stevens) Your only novel isn't even available at your own campus bookstore.
ODENKIRK: (As William Henry Devereaux Jr.) You - you're here. You're here. The main piece of evidence is that you are here. The fact that you're here means you didn't try very hard in high school. Or for whatever reason, you showed very little promise. Did that sound harsh? I'll tell you what. I'll smile through the rest of this. You are here. And even if your presence at this middling college in this sad, forgotten town with some bizarre anomaly, and you do have the promise of genius, which I'll bet a kidney that you don't, it will never surface. I am not a good enough writer or writing teacher to bring it out of you. And how do I know that? How? Because I too am here at Railton College, mediocrity's capital.
BIANCULLI: In this early scene, Odenkirk as Hank is a lot like Bryan Cranston as Walter White the first time we met him in his high school science classroom in "Breaking Bad." There's a feeling that Hank is about to break, too, but we don't know in which direction. His wife, Lily, played by Mireille Enos from "The Killing," obviously has been riding this emotional roller coaster with her husband for some time. And the actress plays her role with wonderful grace notes of weariness, sympathy and sarcasm, often at the same time, which isn't easy.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LUCKY HANK")
ODENKIRK: (As William Henry Devereaux Jr.) My father retires. It's a major thing, big enough for the biggest newspaper in the country to put it on the cover of the arts section. Good for him. Also, I find out about it from the cover of the arts section. Good for me.
MIREILLE ENOS: (As Lily Devereaux) And this makes you feel...
ODENKIRK: (As William Henry Devereaux Jr.) Nothing.
ENOS: (As Lily Devereaux) And that outburst in class...
ODENKIRK: (As William Henry Devereaux Jr.) ...Was unrelated. In fact, it felt good. I told the truth. I think I inspired myself.
ENOS: (As Lily Devereaux) To tell the truth more? That's not good.
ODENKIRK: (As William Henry Devereaux Jr.) To work on my novel.
ENOS: (As Lily Devereaux) Oh, great. Well, I love it when you start your second novel. It's usually a wonderful time in our marriage.
BIANCULLI: "Lucky Hank" is adapted for television by Paul Lieberstein, who played Toby on NBC's "The Office" and was a writer and showrunner on that series, and Aaron Zelman, who was a writer and producer on both "The Killing" and "Damages." The executive producers also include Odenkirk, author Russo and the director of the pilot, Peter Farrelly. "Lucky Hank" begins, at least, as a story of characters in quiet but almost constant conflict. Odenkirk plays it straight and plays it great, and he's got a very capable supporting cast to play with and to play off. Shannon DeVido as one of the faculty members stands out early, but it's a group that always manages to heighten the tension and the humor. In its setting and tone and in its focus on tiny fiefdoms and giant egos, "Lucky Hank" is a lot like Netflix's "The Chair" with Sandra Oh or the movie "Wonder Boys" with Michael Douglas, except the center of this story is played by Bob Odenkirk. And that's more than enough to keep me enrolled for the entire term.
DAVIES: David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. "Lucky Hank" begins Sunday on AMC. On Monday's show, we speak with actor Billy Crudup. He won an Emmy Award playing a confident, cynical TV executive in the series "The Morning Show." Among his movie credits is "Almost Famous," where he played a virtuoso rock guitarist. Now he stars in the futurist Apple TV series "Hello Tomorrow!" as a salesman marketing timeshare properties on the moon. I hope you can join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF JESSICA WILLIAMS' "MONK'S HAT")
DAVIES: We'll close with music from the late pianist Jessica Williams, who passed away a year ago this month. Today would have been her 75th birthday. This is her tune "Monk's Hat."
(SOUNDBITE OF JESSICA WILLIAMS' "MONK'S HAT")
DAVIES: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. For Terry Gross, I'm Dave Davies.
(SOUNDBITE OF JESSICA WILLIAMS' "MONK'S HAT")
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.