Fresh Air with Terry Gross

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Jason Segel, is nominated for an Emmy for his leading role in the series "Shrinking." The first three seasons are streaming on Apple TV.

When we first meet his character, Jimmy, he's a psychotherapist who's having a nervous breakdown but continues to work with his patients. Believing he's having a breakthrough as a therapist, he intervenes in his patients' lives. He gives them inappropriate advice to do things Jimmy believes will change their lives for the better and prevent them from complaining about the same things week after week without ever making an effort to fix the problems. The reason Jimmy is falling apart is that his wife was killed in a car accident a year ago. His teenage daughter is in high school when the series starts. She accuses him of being so absorbed in his own grief, he's emotionally abandoned her instead of helping her through her grief. Jimmy's mentor and colleague is played by Harrison Ford, who's also nominated for an Emmy, as is co-star Jessica Williams.

Segel got his first memorable role in "Freaks And Geeks." The characters were high school friends. After the show was canceled, Segel wrote and starred in the film "Forgetting Sarah Marshall." He wrote and was the human star of the movie musical "The Muppets." He was one of the stars of "How I Met Your Mother," played writer David Foster Wallace in the film "The End Of The Tour" and wrote and starred in the series "Dispatches From Elsewhere."

Let's start with a scene from the first episode of "Shrinking." It will give you an idea of how Segel's character has lost his bearings as a therapist and is pushing his patients to do what he thinks they need to do to move forward. Here he is with his patient Grace, played by Heidi Gardner.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SHRINKING")

HEIDI GARDNER: (As Grace) And he just kept on going on and on about how dumb I am.

JASON SEGEL: (As Jimmy) You're not dumb, Grace.

GARDNER: (As Grace) He said if it weren't for my great [expletive], no one would want to take care of me, so - that's almost nice.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) It's not nice.

GARDNER: (As Grace) I know, but he loves me.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) I've had enough. Grace, we've been doing this for two years. Two years of your life. I have never seen a guy tell a woman that she is dumb and lucky she has great [expletive] and thought to myself, wow. They must really be in love. And you keep telling me how great he is. Well, I saw him. He's not that great. His muscles are too big. His shirts are too tight. Nobody likes that. It's gross.

GARDNER: (As Grace) I'm sorry. I don't know what's happening 'cause I was talking, and...

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) Grace, your husband is emotionally abusive. He's not working on it. He doesn't intend to. He's made you think it's all you deserve. It's not. Just [expletive] leave him.

GARDNER: (As Grace) It's not that easy.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) It is that easy. You don't have any kids. Just go to your sister's in Vancouver.

GARDNER: (As Grace) But then...

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) Leave him, or I'm done being your therapist. Look...

GARDNER: (As Grace) OK? OK.

GROSS: Jason Segel, welcome back to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on the Emmy nomination and on the series. So I should say the outcome does not go well (laughter).

SEGEL: Yeah. It depends on how you look at it. It's good to talk to you again, by the way. I was saying to you in our little pre-interview session - you're one of my very first interviews when I was a little guy - I mean, in my early 20s - and it's so nice to be talking to you again.

GROSS: Oh, it's a pleasure to have you back. We also talked about the Muppets movie, and that was a lot of fun.

SEGEL: Yeah. That's right.

GROSS: Love that film.

SEGEL: Absolutely.

GROSS: First of all, what should Jimmy have done? What do you think?

SEGEL: Well, it's an interesting thing because this is the extreme example of this kind of therapy method that the show is based on - this group of therapists who kind of broke convention and realized that people were spending a lot of time week after week rehashing where things came from in their past. And in reality, what they really needed was some hope about what to do on Tuesday. You know? It's like, I have to have this talk with my boss on Tuesday, and I have all these feelings about it. And you're spending week after week figuring out why you have feelings about authority figures, but Tuesday is coming, you know?

And so this group of therapists decided that they were going to kind of change the rules a bit - tell people what to do on Tuesday. And then in the meantime, we will get to figuring out why you had such a hard time figuring it out. And so this is the beginning of that approach to therapy that we see, you know, as the show progresses of, you know, people really just want to be told what to do, to some extent. We can figure out the why of it all, but what am I supposed to do about my abusive husband? What am I supposed to do about, you know, my work situation?

GROSS: Who are...

SEGEL: So...

GROSS: ...These therapists that you're talking about?

SEGEL: One of them is Phil Stutz, who there is a documentary about. And he has a whole web of people that - you know, that he trained and works with, a big group of therapists who all have the same idea that what people really want is some hope. And if you can send a patient out of the room with some hope and some direction, they're much more likely to come back, and they're much more likely to effect change in their life.

GROSS: Did you participate in that kind of therapy?

SEGEL: Listen, one of these guys has become my actual therapist, and it totally changed my life. He's absolutely incredible. And I had done therapy throughout my life. And, you know, like they said, I had spent a lot of time talking about the same stuff from my childhood or this or that. And to finally be given some direction about, hey, next time this happens, this is what I want you to do - sometimes as reductive as, like, I want you to say this sentence next time this person does this - and all of a sudden, your life starts operating more smoothly. And then you start to pick up the why of it all.

And as a matter of fact, the last lines of this season that we just, you know, finished that aired - Season 3 - Jimmy finally gets to the dirty underneath of why he can't move forward. This idea of - who would want me now? You know, I'm all covered in scars - that came from a real therapy session I had with Barry, where I had to show up to this thing where I was going to be around somebody who I had kind of come up with.

And I've had a twisty-turny life and some rocky moments. And this guy I was going to see had just worn it all a lot more lightly than I had. And I was talking to my therapist, Barry, about it, and I said, You know, I think I feel a little bit embarrassed. I feel embarrassed to walk into this room, and he has worn it all so lightly, and I'm showing up covered in scars. And without missing a beat, he said, what a shame it would be to show up anywhere at 45 years old not covered in scars.

GROSS: Isn't that what...

SEGEL: And...

GROSS: ...Harrison Ford says?

SEGEL: I got off the phone with my therapist. I called the writers' room. And I said, guys, this is how this ends.

GROSS: That's so interesting.

SEGEL: Yeah. That moment released so much personal whatever you would call it - shame, embarrassment - about that I've lived a complicated life. And the beauty of doing "Shrinking" is when people come up to you, it's not like, I love this joke or I love the Dracula puppet musical. These are all things that I'm really proud of. But people come up for "Shrinking," and they say, hey. I was going through XYZ, and something that you guys talked about on there really helped me. I've had a lot of people come up and say, like, that thing about scars really stuck with me. It's a sign of a life fully lived, you know?

GROSS: No, absolutely. That stuck with me, too. I've heard you say that at least when you were younger, and I don't know how it is now, you had trouble making decisions. And I'm wondering if that relates to how much you like this form of therapy where somebody suggests what you should do.

SEGEL: One of the things that I've come to realize, getting to know myself for this long, is I seem to have, like, the wrong size computer for my needs.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGEL: You know? It's like (laughter) it's just crunching numbers and scenarios instead of letting me settle in and enjoy my life. And it's been that way since I'm really young. I was a kind of emo, emotional kid, and every decision felt so weighty. And I think that it has been very beneficial to my work because I seem to feel things, like, 1.5 times the normal amount. But it has been kind of stifling in my personal life. And so, yes, I think having somebody simplify the equation has been a really helpful thing. I will say, like - and I have, throughout my past, been kind of hesitant to talk about, like, personal life stuff. But I'm getting married this year. And my fiancee does a very...

GROSS: Congratulations.

SEGEL: Thank you so much. My fiancee does a very similar thing for me. She is a dancer. And she kind of lives in her body and is a very grounding force that I have been needing in my life of someone who just says, hey, I know you're thinking a lot right now, but you know our life is great, right? And I don't have that voice. That voice does not, like, live in me. And so that's also been really helpful for kind of calming me down a bit.

GROSS: But that's the kind of voice that drives so many artists of every sort - writers, musicians. Like, you're unhappy and you're frustrated. And that can, like, paralyze you. But it could also be an engine that drives you.

SEGEL: Listen, I don't know if you are similar. But I will be thinking about the worst-case scenario or, you know, something dumb like, you know, I built something too close to the property line and now it can't be permitted. And, like, you know...

GROSS: (Laughter).

SEGEL: ...I'll be thinking about something like this. And I'll be really stewing on it. And I'll think, God, my brain won't let me relax. This happened just the other night. I'm working on an edit, and we were having a hard time cracking something at 3 a.m. I woke up with the solution. I said, oh, that scene is in the wrong place. It's not that that scene doesn't work, but it actually ruins a scene three scenes later without even kind of realizing that's what it's doing. And then I take that scene out, and all of a sudden, the thing works. And I have to - it's the same brain. You know what I mean? So it's sort of, you got to take the good with the bad. The same brain that's going to obsess over the property line and permitting is also the one that is making some pretty cool art.

GROSS: We need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Jason Segel. He's nominated for an Emmy for his leading role in the series "Shrinking." The first three seasons are streaming on Apple TV. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF JON CLEARY SONG, "DYNA-MITE")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jason Segel. He's nominated for an Emmy for his starring role in the comedy drama series "Shrinking," where he plays a psychotherapist who's having his own mental health crisis because his wife died a year ago in a car crash. Meanwhile, he's continuing to see his patients.

You know, with decision-making, did you and do you always think that, you know, you can see both sides - why this decision would be better than that decision - so it's hard to decide which is best, but you're sure there's going to be consequences if you make the wrong choice (laughter)?

SEGEL: Yeah, I wish it was more rational than it is. I think it's, honestly, I think it's, like, a close cousin to OCD. I think that it - like, the actual stuff is a little bit of a mask. You know what I mean? I'm, like, fooling myself if I think any of this obsession or worrying is about anything real. But, you know, it's as simple as, like, oh - you know what? - if I'm worrying about the property line right now, life must actually be in pretty good shape.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGEL: You know what I mean? It's learning that kind of stuff.

GROSS: Do you actually have OCD? Were you diagnosed with that?

SEGEL: Yeah. And it manifests in a bunch of different ways. But, like, you know, when I was young, really, really young, it was night terrors that turned into, like, compulsively checking doorknobs. And I've found a lot of ways to channel it into creativity. Creativity has been, like, a really good friend. I mean, it's been my beloved since I'm young until I met my partner. Like, me and creativity were ride or die.

GROSS: Do you think that those nightmares figured into your series "Dispatches From Elsewhere," which is a real nightmarish, confusing premise? You wrote and starred in it. And, you know, the character is suddenly in this, like, other, like, world, kind of like where the environment is mostly but not completely familiar, but everything happening is totally strange, kind of like nightmares.

SEGEL: Yeah, my nightmares figured more - I write these kids books called "Nightmares!" actually, that, like...

GROSS: Oh.

SEGEL: ...Are very much about that, about night terrors. And that was kind of how I exercised those feelings. "Dispatches From Elsewhere" was something different for me. I had reached this moment of existential crisis around 33 years old where I didn't know why I was doing any of this stuff. And I was no longer really enjoying myself making things. And I think I had gotten maybe too strategic about what I was trying to write. And it also coincided - I'm a sober guy for a long time now, 13 years or so. And it coincided with me getting sober and all of a sudden not thinking things were funny anymore. And I was kind of known for making comedy. I was just - I was really scared, to be honest with you, about what the rest of my creative life looked like.

And I had what I guess you would describe as writer's block. I hadn't written anything since "The Muppets." Just nothing was happening. And then I saw this documentary called the Institute, about this real-life art experiment that happened in San Francisco, where all of a sudden, these fliers were put on lampposts with nothing pointing you towards them. Like, it wasn't sweaty at all. It just said, like, dolphin communications testing with pull tabs at the bottom. Human force field experiments with pull tabs at the bottom. And if you were the type of person who pulled a pull tab, you were told to - you know, you called this number. And you were told to report to this address.

And you went down. And you basically, long story short, were launched into this grown-up scavenger hunt throughout the city of San Francisco that lasted for, like, three years. And grown-ups were showing up from all sorts of socioeconomic groups and totally different types of people, who just felt like there should be more. I think that was, like, the underlying thing of it. And it's, like, the thing that drives Roald Dahl books or "Harry Potter," this idea that someone's going to show up and say, like, shush, you're meant for more. There's magic over here, you know? It was that for grown-ups.

And I watched this documentary, and I was just, like, disproportionately moved by it. And I felt something awaken in me, like, right. You've forgotten that this is all supposed to be magic and fun. And it can be a little scary, and this moment you're in personally is a little scary. And it's OK. Like, you're on this ride of life. And where is the guy who wrote the Dracula puppet musical in "Forgetting Sarah Marshall"? You know? Like, where is the guy who wasn't afraid?

And so I called the guy who created the real-life San Francisco experiment, and I asked him if I could adapt it into a TV show. And he let me adapt this thing. And it's not something that really caught on. It's something that I am so proud of, and it's something that meant so much to me personally because I really put my insides outside making that show. Like, I wrote from my guts again.

GROSS: You have talked about how, after doing so much comedy and rom-coms, that you wanted to do dramatic acting and...

SEGEL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Try that and learn from that. So you did, you know, "The End Of The Tour," where you play David Foster Wallace. And then, you know, you created the series you were just talking about, "Dispatches From Elsewhere." "Shrinking! is, like, part comedy, part drama. You get to...

SEGEL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Do both. And you've said in the past that you like to push - even in a comedy, you like your - to push your character as dark as the character can get because you feel like you can make the character inherently likable so that people, no matter how dark the character is, will root for them. And I'm wondering...

SEGEL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...If you feel like you have that kind of likability in real life - that even if you're depressed, even if you get really dark, that people will root for you and stick with you. You know, that you emanate enough likability to get by with other people.

SEGEL: I'm very vulnerable in a way that makes me, like - I think I feel a bit like a surrogate for oneself. Like, it's kind of what I do on screen. I think I am open enough about that life is tricky and funny and complicated and hard and weird and, man, what a ride. What a ride life is, you know? And I'm kind of open about that I'm - sometimes I'm shaken around by it, you know? I think that sometimes people can look at me - at least on screen, maybe in real life - and think, like, oh, me too. Oh, he's talking about the thing I'm not saying out loud. You know?

One of the things I look for when I'm doing work, like, on a scene or in a show or a movie is, like, what is the dirty underneath? What is the thing that they're not saying? Because all of the dialogue is what someone is willing to say, and we all have this other stuff that we're hiding. And I think that for whatever reason, I'm, like, kind of devoid of pride or shame about the dirty underneath. I'm kind of willing to express it in life and on my face creatively. And, you know, I'll just say the stuff, like - I'll say the stuff that a lot of people are trying to hide.

GROSS: I want to get back to the kind of therapy that inspired the kind of therapy your character is practicing in the series...

SEGEL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Of intervening in people's lives and telling them what they should do as opposed to trying to, like, gently lead them to question themselves and discover a solution for themselves. Has that - has the series been controversial among therapists for suggesting that that approach could be a very helpful approach, as well as it could be a destructive approach?

SEGEL: All I can tell - I don't read the internet at all. I'm scared of the internet.

GROSS: Oh, I thought people...

SEGEL: (Laughter).

GROSS: I thought you might know therapists who were telling you directly.

SEGEL: Well, that - all I will tell you is that the therapists who have come up to me about it have almost unanimously said that it is wish-fulfillment for therapists.

GROSS: (Laughter).

SEGEL: Because the experience is for them, you are sitting there knowing exactly what the answer is. And week after week, you are trying to use, like, the Socratic method to, like, guide them to what to you is a very obvious decision, you know? And it's kind of funny because in real life, your friends, who are the least qualified, are the most eager to tell you what to do. And your therapist, who is the most qualified, feels the least enabled to tell you what to do. And so I think that therapists love the idea of being able to just say, like, oh my God. Just leave him. Just leave him, you know?

GROSS: We actually need to take another break here. I hate to interrupt our conversation.

SEGEL: Please.

GROSS: But here we go. So if you're just joining us, my guest is Jason Segel. He's nominated for an Emmy for his starring role in the comedy-drama series "Shrinking," in which he plays a psychotherapist. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jason Segel. He's nominated for an Emmy for his leading role as a psychotherapist who's having his own mental health crisis in the comedy drama series "Shrinking."

How was the series pitched to you? And it was your idea, apparently, to add this kind of therapy?

SEGEL: No, not really. It was - Brett Goldstein and Bill Lawrence came to me. They had both had similar ideas about a therapist...

GROSS: We should mentioned that they are the creators of "Ted Lasso."

SEGEL: I think Bill and Jason Sudeikis are the creators of "Lasso." Brett is a writer on it. And then Bill, Brett and I are the creators of "Shrinking." The reality is I kind of got a great free ride on it. Bill and Brett had thought of these therapy ideas.

GROSS: Oh, OK.

SEGEL: And they didn't have a script yet, but they each had this idea about a therapist going through a nervous breakdown. And they pitched me the idea, and I think my contribution to it was what you had brought up, which is, I feel like I have garnered a lot of goodwill over my career, and people are rooting for the characters I play. Let's push this guy as far as we can into the red because I feel like I can pull him out of the nosedive. So let's be brave.

And, you know, in the opening - I think it's the opening scene of the show. I'm in my backyard with sex workers and booze and drugs, and my daughter is upstairs. Like, it is a pretty unlikable first depiction, you know? Because I felt like if you start this guy at the rockiest of rock bottoms, you have a long way to go to pull him out. And I just believed I could make you feel sympathetic for him. So then we jumped in and we wrote the pilot and made the show, and that's history.

The second truth to how it happened, allegedly, is, I have a place in a town called Ojai, a little country town. And I love it there. And I walk around town like Big Bird in Ojai. I wake up every morning, and I take this 45 minute walk through town that's kind of like the beginning of "Beauty And The Beast." I'm, like, waving at the baker, and, (laugher) you know, like, shops are opening, and I just like - I just love it. I feel very much like myself.

Apparently, what really happened is one of the producers was on vacation in Ojai. And I was taking one of these muppety walks through town, and he saw me from across the street and texted Bill Lawrence, I just saw Jason Segel. He seems like a happy guy. Let's make a show with him. And here we are.

GROSS: So we've heard you with a patient in a scene from the series. And now I want to play a scene with you talking to your mentor, Paul, who is considerably older than you are. He's played by Harrison Ford. Paul, in the series, gets diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, and his series - his symptoms progress through the series. And you've been really helpful to him as his symptoms have progressed. You've been there for him.

But at this point in the series, Paul, Harrison Ford's character, is leaving LA and moving to Connecticut to be close to his daughter, who he'd been estranged from in the past, but the relationship has started up again. He owns the building where he practiced, along with you and along with Jessica Williams, whose character, Gaby, he gave the building and the practice to because it was her dream to set up a trauma center. So now she's going to be able to do that. And you knew from the past that you didn't want to take over the whole practice, but you feel betrayed because he didn't consult you before giving it to Gaby, and you found out late that he was moving 3,000 miles away. So you're feeling very abandoned. And...

SEGEL: Oh, man, I know what you're about to play. I haven't watched this scene since I did it.

GROSS: Why? Were you afraid to?

SEGEL: No, quite the opposite. This scene with Harrison that you're about to play, I knew was coming for the whole season, you know, 'cause I get to kind of know the story lines in advance. And I think the whole season, I was thinking to myself, boy, when we get to the end of this season, I'm going to be on a balcony with Harrison Ford acting my guts out, you know? And it's really important to me that I be great. You know, it's like you're going to play basketball with Michael Jordan or something.

And, man, when that scene came, I was not afraid, and I just was honest, and I didn't show off, and I did all the things that I feel like make a scene good. And at the end, when they said, cut, Harrison looked at me and he said, so excited, (imitating Harrison Ford) you did it, kid.

And we hugged. And I didn't need to add any other, like, judgment to that moment. Does that make sense?

GROSS: Sure. And he calls you kid in the series, too.

SEGEL: Yeah, yeah. No, he's become a really special part of my life. But yeah, let's hear it. I haven't heard it before.

GROSS: OK, and to set it up just a little further, the subtext of this is that Jimmy always felt, like, hurt by his own father and emotionally abandoned 'cause his father was always, like, disappearing on him. And now Jimmy's father is going to go on a fishing trip instead of going to Jimmy's daughter's graduation. And Jimmy's really angry with his father for now emotionally abandoning his daughter, at least that's how Jimmy sees it. So here you are as Jimmy with Harrison Ford as your mentor and fellow therapist, Paul. You speak first.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SHRINKING")

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) You gave the practice to Gaby.

HARRISON FORD: (As Paul) We talked about this years ago. You said you hated paperwork and all you wanted to do was spend time with the patients.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) People change. You didn't even check with me, Paul.

FORD: (As Paul) Would you have wanted it?

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) No.

FORD: (As Paul) So you're angry with me for not offering you something that you don't want?

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) Yes, I am. I'm supposed to be your guy, been your guy. And this? This is how you treat me? I don't deserve it.

FORD: (As Paul) Easy, kid.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) No. I'm mad, Paul. And I'm embarrassed. I have to find out from Meg that you're moving. You don't even have the decency to come and look me in my eyes and tell me that you're leaving me.

FORD: (As Paul) Let's take a break. I think these feelings that you're having might be meant for someone else.

SEGEL: (As Jimmy) No. I think they're meant for both of you. I get it now. I'm not as important to you as you are to me. I just feel stupid it took me that long to realize it.

GROSS: So how does the scene sound to you, actually hearing it now? I don't want to put you on the spot and feel like you have to brag about your performance. So...

SEGEL: No, no. That's - luckily, that's not how I feel.

GROSS: OK.

SEGEL: I'm - I always feel vulnerable when I hear or watch myself acting because I think, like, the feeling you're feeling, if you're doing it right, is so vital that then the - it translating to the outside part of you always, like, by the clumsy act of expression, is going to be, like, one step less vital. But I feel like I sound like how people sound when they're feeling those things, you know?

GROSS: Sounds like...

SEGEL: I try...

GROSS: ...You're choking.

SEGEL: Yeah. I try really hard - I think that this, like, might be the key to acting. I don't know. But I try really hard not to show off. I think that's one of the things that you learn as you're getting more familiar with working with a camera. Boy, you want to show off. Like, the camera's getting ever closer to you as the coverage goes on, you know? So some parts of you are activating, like, oh gosh. It's my turn. You know? Or, oh, it's getting closer. Now's the time to really show them. You know?

And so I think a big thing that I try to do is to be, oh, you know what? This is maybe an easy way to say it. I was really interested in why I thought Jeff Bridges was so good at acting. So I went back and I, like, read reviews of some of his great performances. And one of them said, Jeff Bridges may be the least self-conscious actor working today. And I thought, oh yeah. That's the goal - is to be as unself-conscious between action and cut as possible. Like, just don't show off. Don't try to show them. Just be real. How honest can you be between action and cut, you know?

And then you start adding - like, taking it for a spin while you're out there - and that requires some bravery and all that. But I guess during that scene with Harrison, between action and cut, I just tried to really know what I was feeling. I understand when people talk about acting, like, he might call - I might call myself the character - like, understand what Jimmy was feeling. That's not really my experience of doing acting. I'm like, well, what am I feeling right now, you know? I don't have to search, like, what is Jimmy feeling? What am I feeling? And then just, like - just do that.

GROSS: Well, I have to reintroduce you again here. If you're...

SEGEL: Whoa.

GROSS: ...Just joining us, my guess is Jason Segel. He's nominated for an Emmy for his leading role in the series "Shrinking." The first three seasons are streaming on Apple TV. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jason Segel. He's nominated for an Emmy for his leading role as a psychotherapist who's having his own mental health crisis in the comedy-drama series "Shrinking." Segel got a start when he was in his late teens and was one of the stars of "Freaks And Geeks." After it was canceled, he wrote and starred in the rom-com Forgetting Sarah Marshall." He wrote the movie musical "The Muppets" and was the human star, and was one of the stars of "How I Met Your Mother."

SEGEL: I love how you call me the human star of "The Muppets." It gives me such joy.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Well, especially since you've said you sometimes feel like a Muppet. So...

SEGEL: For sure.

GROSS: ...I thought I'd emphasize that you were the human star as opposed to...

SEGEL: (Laughter).

GROSS: ...One of the Muppets.

SEGEL: Thanks.

GROSS: Yeah. So this question is going to lead to something about "Shrinking." I'm taking, like, the long route around.

SEGEL: Great.

GROSS: So this route starts with "Dracula's Lament." So...

SEGEL: Yeah.

GROSS: Judd Apatow was one of the executive producers of "Freaks And Geeks," the series that, like, made you as a known actor. And after it was canceled, you were working on a rock musical that you were writing about a vampire. And it was a - you know, you played a - you made a CD and played one of the songs for Judd Apatow. And he said, don't ever play this for anyone else again.

SEGEL: Yes.

GROSS: So before we hear the song that you played Judd Apatow, which I played before on the show when you were on, but that was...

SEGEL: OK.

GROSS: ...A long time ago - I love listening to this. But just to set it up, tell us what the musical was. Just a little...

SEGEL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Plot synopsis.

SEGEL: So I would - yeah. I mean, a little plot synopsis is basically I - it was basically going to be "Forgetting Sarah Marshall," but it was going to be Dracula. It was going to be Dracula instead of human Jason Segel. I think it's as simple as that. I had kind of a life-altering breakup at the time. You know, things feel so - oh, man - so meaningful, you know, when you're experiencing them for the first time. And as soon as this woman walked out of my apartment, I sat down and I wrote this song. First I wrote it as a human, and then minutes later, I started singing it as Dracula. And I'm like, oh my God. This is it - a Dracula puppet breakup musical.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Do you want to set up the song at all before we hear it?

SEGEL: This is the song in real life that I wrote minutes after my breakup. And in the movie, I've talked about the Dracula musical, and Mila Kunis has taken the opportunity to force me to go onstage and sing it to her. She's hearing it for the first time and is essentially mortified.

GROSS: OK. Here we go.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DRACULA'S LAMENT")

SEGEL: (As Peter, playing Dracula) It's getting kind of hard to believe things are going to get better. I've been drowning too long to believe that the tide's going to turn. And I've been living too hard to believe things are going to get easier now. I'm still trying to shake off the pain from the lessons I've learned. And if I see Van Helsing, I swear to the Lord, I will slay him, (laughter). He'd take you from me, but I swear, I won't let it be so, (laughter). Blood will run down his face when he is decapitated, (laughter). His head on my mantle is how I will let this world know how much I love you. Die, die. die. I can't.

GROSS: OK. So what I'm wondering, among other things - first of all, I love hearing that song. I laugh every time I hear it. I'm wondering - I know you love the musical "Les Mis." I know "Les Mis" made a huge impression on you. I know you've sung duets of it with Neil Patrick Harris and that you reprise it with another character from "Shrinking"...

SEGEL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...In the car. I am wondering if "Dracula's Lament" is inspired by the confrontation song in "Les Mis," which is the kind of song equivalent of a duel between revolutionary Jean Valjean and Inspector Javert, who's been hunting Valjean and wants to arrest...

SEGEL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Or maybe kill him.

SEGEL: Absolutely. "Les Miserables" was, I think, the first - my first intro into musicals. I used to go with my parents every year when it would come through LA to the Pantages Theatre. And, yeah, I was just like - I was obsessed with it. And I know all the songs. I sing all the different characters. So, yeah, I think about it all the time. But, yes, the Dracula musical is definitely inspired by "Les Miserables" for sure.

GROSS: (Laughter) Great.

SEGEL: You know, I have all the puppets. That was one of the great takeaways from "Forgetting Sarah Marshall" was they gave...

GROSS: All the puppets from the Dracula musical?

SEGEL: Yeah, from the Dracula musical. They let me have them. And they were made by the Jim Henson Company. And I've got them in this, like, secret room in my house.

GROSS: That's pretty great.

SEGEL: Yeah.

GROSS: We need to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is Jason Segel. He's nominated for an Emmy for his leading role in the series "Shrinking." The first three seasons are streaming on Apple TV. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF RAMSEY LEWIS TRIO'S "THE 'IN' CROWD")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jason Segel. He's nominated for an Emmy for his starring role in the comedy drama series "Shrinking" as a psychotherapist who's been having his own mental health crisis because his wife died a year ago in a car crash.

So you said that you've been sober for 13 years, which is...

SEGEL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Great. And I want to say congratulations.

SEGEL: Oh, thanks.

GROSS: But I was wondering if drinking coincided with one of those periods when you weren't working a lot, and you were questioning, like, is it over, you know, am I riding on my past right now?

SEGEL: Yeah. I think the drinking was actually pre that. I think that what was kind of confusing to me was during this period when things were going really, really, really well, I was really unhappy. I was being told that I had won life in so many ways. Like, I was having really successful movies and a really successful TV show. And I was writing stuff and making stuff. But I was just so unhappy. And I was drinking a bunch to, I don't know, you know, deal with that.

That I just felt like, if this is winning life, I don't know how much longer I want to do this, you know? Like, it's just not - I'm not enjoying myself at all. And so I felt like I had to make a big life change. There was no inciting incident, you know? Like, there wasn't, like, a thing that happened. I just realized, oh, this is going to just keep going on like this. So I just was like, I need to change everything. So I stopped drinking. And I also was like, there is this voice.

My - I got discovered doing dramas, like, in high school dramas, you know? And the performances I admired that, like, made me feel, like, alive with acting was like Edward Norton in "Primal Fear," Peter Sellers in "Being There," Martin Sheen in "Badlands." And none of these were anywhere close to what I was doing, you know? And I think that I had this feeling of, like, maybe one of the reasons you are unhappy is that you're not finding out. Like, you're going to be the guy who we're all familiar with, who's, like, resentful at dinner parties like, well, if I had done "The Revenant," I would've done this or that.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGEL: You know, who never finds out. And so I think that that kind of big life change led me into this moment of, like, let's go answer all the questions that you are not answering and that you're kind of, like, numbing that you're not answering.

GROSS: How do you do that? How do you find the answers to those questions?

SEGEL: I mean, it's so weird how the universe responds. And I'm not, like, a woo-woo guy, you know? But "End Of The Tour" came to my desk right as I was having this moment. And it was my...

GROSS: And it is a drama. Yeah, that's the David Foster Wallace story.

SEGEL: It's a - yeah. It's David Foster Wallace story. It was my chance to find out. It was about everything that I was going through. It was about a guy who was winning life, according to everybody. He had written the book of the generation, he was struggling with sobriety, and he was trying to figure out how to be happy while he was doing all of it. And I thought, well, here is your chance to find out. Like, what if you play what would Edward Norton do? - and dive into this thing in a way that you've never had to dive into a comedy. And, like, I just, like, prepped the way that I heard, quote, unquote, "real" actors prep. And I got a dialect coach, and I did all this stuff. And I spent, like, 10 years doing that, of, like, chasing that sort of thing. And I think that it was, like, one of the most important things I ever did. And I've realized that maybe strategy for me is my enemy. I need to be doing what's interesting to me.

GROSS: Your father is a lawyer. I don't know if he's retired now or not, but what kind of law did he practice? And what did you learn from seeing him work or from people he brought home who were also lawyers or maybe clients?

SEGEL: Yeah, my dad did, like, entertainment law, but not like Hollywood entertainment, like amusement parks and casinos and things like that. I think what I learned from my father is just, like, this crazy work ethic. My dad worked harder than anyone I'd ever seen. And I actually, like, had the honor of doing something a minute ago, got a house, like, for the next stage of my journey. Kayla and I found our dream house, and we're going to move in. And it has this office in it. It has an old-timey office. And my dad, when he retired, gave me the desk that he worked at for 40 years. And I just got to put it in the office. It's been sitting in, like, a storage unit, and I finally got to put it in the office.

I had to FaceTime him and thank him and say, like, hey, Dad, this desk is the reason I'm here. Like, the work that my dad put in - I am very, very lucky. I will constantly be in awe of people who get in a bus from their small town and are like, I'm going to go make it in the entertainment business. You know? That is a different kind of bravery than I had to do. I grew up in LA, and I always knew, because of my parents, that no matter what I was going to be okay. It was an amazing way to try to do this job and this life.

GROSS: Is that because they were financially secure?

SEGEL: Yeah, they were financially secure. They would always be there if I needed. Like, I knew that they would - I knew that they had me. You know what I mean? Like, no matter what, I was safe, and it gave me the opportunity to try to fly. And I did, you know? But I only did, I think, because they said, like, hey, go out and do it. You know, and my dad put in the hours to make that possible.

And my mom put in the hours by raising us. Like, my mother is the most incredible woman. And also, my mom did this thing. Like, she kind of incepted who I became. She showed me "The Muppet Show" that - she had taped it. She had taped every episode to show me "The Muppet Show" when her kid got old enough because, like, she thought it was special. She showed me "Harold And Maude" when I was, like, way too young to see it. You know, I was like, 9-years-old, and my mom showed me "Harold And Maude" and showed me Peter Sellers, and, like, I am definitely the most positive version of, like, a product of my parents.

GROSS: Jason Segel, it's been great to talk with you again. I really appreciate you coming back to the show. And congratulations on your Emmy nomination.

SEGEL: Ah, Terry, thanks so much. It's so nice to both of us still be at it after all these years. It's pretty darn cool.

GROSS: Jason Segel is nominated for an Emmy for his starring role in the series "Shrinking." The first three seasons are streaming on Apple TV. We'll hear from several other Emmy nominees over the next couple of weeks.

Tomorrow on Fresh Air, why has the United States been unable to impose its will on Iran despite months of punishing attacks from the world's most powerful military force? We'll get some insights from Stacie Pettyjohn, director of the defense program at the Center for a New American Security. I hope you'll join us.

To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair.

(SOUNDBITE OF JAMES CARTER'S "ARTILLERIE LOURDE (HEAVY ARTILLERY)")

GROSS: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.