'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're celebrating hip-hop's 50th anniversary. We're featuring interviews from our archive with performers who hold a significant place in that history. Our first interview today is with Ice-T. He was one of the early gangster rappers and was both popular and controversial. In 1987, he was signed to Sire Records and released his debut album, "Rhyme Pays," which won gold. His follow-up, "Power," went platinum. In 1992, his heavy metal band, Body Count, released their self-titled album, which included the song "Cop Killer." The song was so controversial, it was withdrawn from the market, and the album was rereleased without that track.

As an actor, the paradox of Ice-T's career is obvious. He played a police detective in his first major acting role in the 1991 film "New Jack City." He's probably best known now for his role as a police detective, appearing in over 400 episodes of "Law & Order: SVU." I spoke with Ice-T in 1994 after the publication of his book, "The Ice Opinion." Let's start with an autobiographical rap from his 1993 album, "Home Invasion." This is "That's How I'm Livin'."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THAT'S HOW I'M LIVIN'")

ICE-T: (Rapping) I was born in New Jersey. I said it before, but I guess nobody heard me. My mother died young. No sisters or brothers, I was the only son. When I was 12, my pops died, too. What's a brother supposed to do? They sent me out west to live with my aunt. I guess they thought that was the best. But there was no love there. But growing with no moms, I guess I was prepared to live in a vacuum - the bedroom, the kitchen, the hall, the bathroom. I didn't leave home much. I didn't like LA, didn't have no friends to trust. Got bussed to a school. Blacks and whites, I guess [expletive] was cool. About high school, I changed. Didn't want to bust, didn't want to...

(SOUNDBITE OF ARVCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: Ice-T, welcome to FRESH AIR. You were really one of the first gangster rappers. Did you relate to party rap when rap was starting?

ICE-T: Yeah. When I first got off into rap, I tried to rap in the party rap-type style because I was under the impression that's what rappers did. But it was kind of like I was faking it because I had never really rapped in parties and things like that. I was trying to rap like Sugarhill Gang. And then I just started rapping about the life I was living. And that's how, you know - they call it gangster rap, but I called it reality-based rap, you know? And that's how that form of music got started.

GROSS: Now, how did you start doing that? What was the turning point where you decided you weren't going to try to fake it and do the party raps, that you were going to talk about the life you knew?

ICE-T: Well, I made - my first record ever I made was a record called "Coldest Rap," and it was on a record called "Cold Wind." One side was called "Cold Wind-Madness," and that was on an independent label. And it was very reality based. But it, you know, was so early in rap - this was, like, 1982 - and everybody else was rapping, you know, Run-D.M.C. style, LL Cool J and stuff. So I just was going along with the trend, you know, the way they go. But then after a while, my friends were like, you know, Ice, man, talk about what we do, man. Talk about how we live. And I did this song called "6 'N The Mornin'." It was a B-side. I really didn't think that that was what people wanted to hear, but the B-side turned out to be the biggest record and ended up being my identity, really.

GROSS: Could you do a couple of lines from that?

ICE-T: What, "6 'N The Mornin'?"

GROSS: Oh, maybe not, huh?

ICE-T: Yeah, I could do it. You know...

GROSS: OK.

ICE-T: ...What I mean? It went, (rapping) 6 in the morning, police at my door, fresh Adidas squeaked across the bathroom floor. Out the back window, I made my escape. Didn't even get a chance to grab my old school tape. Mad with no music but happy 'cause free, and the streets to a player is the place to be. Got a knot in my pocket wearing at least a grand. Gold on my neck, my pistol is close at hand. I'm a self-made monster. The city streets remotely controlled by hard hip-hop beats, but just living in the city is a serious task. Didn't know what the cops wanted, didn't have time to ask.

GROSS: Now, what was the very first time you took a microphone?

ICE-T: It was - I was in the Army, and the record called "Rapper's Delight" had came out, and that was the first time I had ever really heard it done to music. And on the B-side of it, it was an instrumental. So here I am trying to say my rhymes over this instrumental. And they didn't really fit 'cause they weren't written that way, you know? But that was my first attempt. And I came home attempting to do what, you know, they call rapping now.

GROSS: Do you remember anything you said that very first time?

ICE-T: Well, I tried to say the street rhymes that I had been saying on the streets, you know, strolling through the city in the middle of my - in the middle of the night. I used to sing, like, gang rhymes. I used to say rhymes that had to do with living in the streets, you know? And they just didn't fit, you know? But I started - then I started writing, like, party rhymes, like (rapping) my name is Ice-T, I'm here - I'm your DJ tonight. I'm here to rock y'all hard. I'mma rock you right. I'mma move you in. I'mma move you out - that kind of stuff. But that wasn't really what I was about, so I got back to the drama.

GROSS: Yeah. I mean, you've even criticized some hardcore rappers who abandon hardcore and do more dance music. What's wrong with dance music?

ICE-T: No, nothing's wrong with it. But, I mean, hardcore rap, to me, is - the difference between pop and hardcore is with hardcore, you're saying exactly what's on your mind. You're being true to your feelings. Now, whether that pushes somebody the wrong way, that's just what being real is about. But there's a lot of people out there that want to get on the radio. So the radio dictates to you what you have to say. You have to be politically correct, so to speak. And when I see guys that at one time were very aggressive about certain things and then I see them get softer to try to go onto the radio, I just - you know, to me, that's weak, you know? But I never really pull names. I just say it to them 'cause it kind of breaks my heart when I see somebody who used to be real dancing around on the video looking all stupid.

GROSS: Well...

ICE-T: Now, if that's what you do - don't get me wrong. If that - if you are a pop rapper, I have no problem with that. You know, I love MC Hammer. I love Fresh Prince, and I love Kid 'n Play. That's them. But I'm talking about - it's like tomorrow if you went out and you saw one of my videos, and all of a sudden, I got on some - like, a yellow raincoat and I'm dancing around and - you know, you'd be like, what are you doing, Ice? That's what I'm talking about.

GROSS: When you started making records, though, did you ever worry that all the traditional avenues that people hear records would be closed to you? It wasn't going to be in the jukeboxes or on the radio because of four-letter words?

ICE-T: I really didn't care, because to me, I did it to have fun. It was fun. It's not a - it turned, then, to being an occupation. But you got to remember, when I started rapping, nobody was making any money at it. There was Run-D.M.C. It was - it wasn't like - now kids listen to it and say, oh, wow, I can get paid. But me, I did it for fun. And that was my only, like, prerequisite as far as doing music - and still is in entertainment. It's like, if I can't have fun, I can't do it. I mean, that's one of the main reasons I pulled off Warner Brothers, was because I got to be able to do it my way. If I can't have fun, then why would I write a book or make a - I got to do it my way. That's what it's about.

GROSS: You grew up in New York, or at least when you were very young, you were in...

ICE-T: Yeah, New Jersey.

GROSS: ...New York, and - New Jersey.

ICE-T: Yeah.

GROSS: Thank you. And your parents died when you were young. Both of your parents were dead, I think, by the time you were 12. Can I ask how they died?

ICE-T: My mother died from a heart attack, and my father just died. I don't know. I just was called from school one day, and they're like, your pops is dead. And I'm like, oh. And then, you know, I never really got into his actual cause of death. He wasn't killed or anything, you know? He was - at the time, he had - I know he had gone through a lot of pain, like, arthritis and stuff like that. And they sent me - from there, they told me, OK, well, you're going to come to LA for the summer.

GROSS: Who's they? Who told you?

ICE-T: His sister, my aunt. And then they were - then the next - before - well, I got there in, like, one week. Then all of a sudden, all my clothes popped up out there in boxes. So I kind of, like, got shipped to California.

GROSS: So that's how you ended up in LA?

ICE-T: Yeah, living with my father's younger sister, who wasn't really a nice woman. She was kind of like a woman who was - said I'm taking care of you 'cause I got to. Shut up, sit down, all that, you know? So a lot of kids get moved around like that.

GROSS: In your book, you said that she was a religious woman.

ICE-T: No, she wasn't a religious woman. She was a drunk. She was a social worker, a woman who would go around and analyze whether kids should stay in foster homes and stuff. And she was a terrible person. She was like an old drunk. She wasn't nobody qualified to do anything like that, you know? I mean, she was - it was rough on me. But I left there when I was, like, 17 years old because, you know, it's not - that's not the kind of environment you're supposed to be raised in where somebody's like, I'm taking care of you 'cause I got to and all that kind of stuff. You know, the word love and caring and all that is, you know, not even in the house.

GROSS: So where did you go at 17?

ICE-T: I got my own place. I took a little money I was getting for Social Security. I was receiving Social Security check - $250 a month. And I bought - I got an apartment which was $100 a month. I took another $100 and put it into the food and stuff I had to buy. And I had 50 bucks extra. And I was still in high school.

GROSS: Now, what high school were you going to?

ICE-T: Crenshaw.

GROSS: This was in South Central?

ICE-T: Yeah, dead - the center of - that's the dead center of Los Angeles, Crenshaw High School.

GROSS: It must have been good to have your own apartment. I mean, when you're in high school, somebody's got their own apartment, that's...

ICE-T: Makes you the man.

GROSS: Yeah (laughter).

ICE-T: Well, that's - that did happen. You know, all my friends and stuff I got, you know, I had the pad. And it turned me, like, into a leader, you know? So by just being a little bit in front of everybody else, I have friends always over. They could spend the night. It was funny. A lot of people would run away for, like, two days. I'm running away. I'm living with you. You know, you can't run away. Then their mother would come to my house. Where's Nate, you know? Get out. He's hiding in the closet. And, you know, it was interesting. But also what ended up happening, I ended up having a teenage pregnancy, too.

GROSS: A girlfriend.

ICE-T: Yeah, my girlfriend. She was in the 10th grade, but, you know, I'm Mr. Man About Town, got my own apartment. Whoop, now I got a baby. So, you know...

GROSS: So what'd you do?

ICE-T: ...A little too much freedom. Huh? Oh, at that point, I decided - I tried to stay down with the kid. But I - you know, that's when all of a sudden, a little - a bit of responsibility tried to hit me, and that's when I joined the military.

GROSS: But that meant getting away from the baby, right?

ICE-T: Not really. It was just a job. It was a way of doing something. You know, at that point, I was on the streets. I was trying to go to technical college. But, you know, crime was knocking there at my door like, hey, man, you know, you only got 50 extra bucks. If you steal this car radio, you got 300 extra bucks. So what are you going to do? You know, you can't get a job at this point, you know? So it was a cross. And I just said, yeah, I'm going to try to go in the Army. And I went in the Army.

GROSS: So are you still in touch with the woman who had the baby and with the baby?

ICE-T: Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, my daughter lives with me now.

GROSS: Oh, she does?

ICE-T: Yeah.

GROSS: Oh.

ICE-T: So that's cool and stuff, you know? But when I came out of the Army, all my friends who were small-time, little, you know, petty crooks now were bigger crooks, you know? And that's how I got off involved in all the different, you know, crimes, attempting to, you know, get over.

GROSS: So what kind of crimes were they doing?

ICE-T: Everything. You know, you name it, we did it, you know? But basically, anything - everything that you could do without actually bringing bodily harm to somebody. I didn't hang around with a bunch of violent guys that were into, you know, hurting people and kidnapping. But they would rob a store or burglarize something or steal something. And some of them sold drugs and things like that. But, you know, I never was, like, often to just, you know, the mugging type of a thing.

GROSS: In your book "The Ice Opinion," you wrote that you wanted to be a pimp.

ICE-T: Yeah.

GROSS: Why did you want to be a pimp?

ICE-T: I admired pimps because when I was growing up, the only people that had everything around me were the pimps and the drug dealers. And I really wasn't into drugs 'cause I don't do drugs or even drink. But I always liked girls. So I was like, hey, that's the guy I want to be. And I just admired the lifestyle. And I got involved in it for a minute, you know, tried it out, but I didn't really like it - you know? - 'cause it's a harmful type of a game. You know, people end up hurt. But now I found out that there's only two jobs in the world - there's pimps and hoes. So it's the people who work for or the people who make you work. So that's why, I guess, that's the oldest profession, because it's - either you're a pimp or you're a ho. So I figured it out now. So I know what's going on with it. So like I said, when I was on Warner Brothers, I was a ho. They were the pimp. They were - they worked me till I was burnt out, busted or dead. Now I'm trying to pimp myself, you know?

GROSS: (Laughter) Is that how you see it?

ICE-T: Yeah. Well, everything can be broken down. Everything you see on the street, it's like - it's only one game, right? You have capitalism and you have different versions of it. Drug dealing is capitalism. It's all the same. It's what the law say is legal and who gets hurt in the meantime. You know, the oil companies sell stuff. They pollute the water, but they can play around with it. So I try to teach kids, you know, all these little skills you're learning on the streets, whether they're negative or not, if you - with a little changing and editing, you can transform right off into big business. And especially if you're a street crook. The best place to go right now is politics because that's where - that's, like, you have - you'll find all your friends there.

GROSS: We're listening to my 1994 interview with Ice-T. We'll hear more of our conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ICE-T SONG, "O.G. ORIGINAL GANGSTER")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1994 interview with rapper and actor Ice-T. In this part of the interview, we talked about the language he used to describe women in some of his recordings and why many women found that language offensive.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: So much rap to me seems to be about getting respect, right?

ICE-T: Right.

GROSS: Then I can't understand why so many rappers treat women with so little respect when they're so demanding of respect for themselves.

ICE-T: True. The word b**** and stuff is just - it's really street dialogue, words that are used and really don't hold a lot of power, you know? I mean, this is just the bottom line. It doesn't really hold a lot of power.

GROSS: But you know that if a woman wants to call herself something, that's one thing. If a man calls a woman a b****, that's something different. And as a friend and colleague says, those are fighting words.

ICE-T: Well, that's cool. But maybe we're saying, let's fight. It's not - I could be a b****, you know? But in the ghetto, we throw these words around. If you sat around some Black kids in the hood, that's how we talk - man, my b**** was da, da (ph) and they be - the girls be like, oh, he thought he had this and da, da, da, da. And we just throw it around. What it is - see, rap music is Black music that's being sent back and forth to us in the ghetto. White America picked up the phone and listened to it and said, oh, how can they talk like this? This is just how we talk. Put the phone down.

GROSS: But the word seems representative of other attitudes too. Like on your latest album, "Home Invasion," on the track "99 Problems"...

ICE-T: Yeah.

GROSS: ...One of the line is - I can't say the word, but it's a four letter word for sex, right? So it's, I blank them all and leave them on the curb. I mean, come on. I mean, you know, that's really...

ICE-T: But listen to Salt-N-Pepa's new record. They're saying the same thing about men. It's ghetto Black female sparring. We continuously do this, and this is just our thing, and we've done it. I mean, my father used to say, Ice, I could take my thing and bounce it off four parking meters and go through that window and do that guy's mama. This is how we talk. It's - and, see, white America just won't understand it. But I'm just going to have to say it's a Black thing. And we do it - listen to Eddie Murphy; listen to Rudy Ray Moore; listen to Richard Pryor; listen to our past history of how it is. Only thing rap has done is put it to music and let you see it. And white America don't like how we are and stuff.

GROSS: Well, I'm white.

ICE-T: I understand it, but...

GROSS: But, I mean, white people have this long history of sexism, but that doesn't make it, like, a thing our people do, so therefore it's cool. I mean, it's bad.

ICE-T: But you don't see Black people criticizing rock 'n' roll.

GROSS: Well, a lot of white women criticize rock 'n' roll.

ICE-T: Well, it's for you to do. You got to understand that if a woman makes a record, she's going to make it from a woman's perspective.

GROSS: You know, there's a lot of Black women criticizing rap now, though.

ICE-T: There's a lot of what - Black women making rap that I think is derogatory toward men.

GROSS: Uh-huh.

ICE-T: Touche.

GROSS: I still don't buy it.

ICE-T: I'm thinking, you know, let's just kick back and enjoy the ride. It's not that serious. There's homeless people out there.

GROSS: Do you think that any of the gangster rap has hardened into a caricature of itself?

ICE-T: Yeah. A lot of it's corny. A lot of it's real fake. I mean, any time I listen to a gangster rapper and he's talking about how tough he is and all this jail stuff and all that and how many people, you know, he killed, and it's, you know - it's phony and fake. You know, any time it's glamorized to that point, I can tell you never been through it. Now, some people are artists at it. It's like, Scarface does it to the point where it's, like, he's like the Sam Peckinpah of rap.

GROSS: (Laughter).

ICE-T: He writes it in such graphic details that it's like watching a feature film, you know? And I appreciate it. But then there's some kids I can just tell that have no idea what they're talking about.

GROSS: You said you don't mind kids emulating the clothes. I think, in fact, you're marketing your own line called O.G.G., Original Gangsta Gear.

ICE-T: Original Gangsta Gear. And the only reason we call it Original Gangsta Gear is because that's what people now call me 'cause I had an album called O.G. That's, like, my side title, Ice-T, the O.G., right? So instead of calling it Ice-T Gear, we called it O.G.G. We thought it was kind of a play on (inaudible) words. You know why we did it? Because I'm tired of the culture just being ripped off, you know? I mean, I've been to all these different clothing manufacturers and hip-hop clothes and all that, but none of the Black kids that got the styles kicking are making a dime off of this, you know? We're not getting nothing out of it. We don't own no record labels. We don't own nothing. So it's a - we don't own anything. So got to keep...

GROSS: (Laughter).

ICE-T: ...My English correct as often as possible. But it's like - I was like, look, none of these people want to sponsor me. They're scared of me and all this. Let me make my own clothes. It's only right if I walk on TV and I create a style, why I ain't get a royalty off of it, you know? And then what happened is the white culture says, you shouldn't want to get any money off of anything you do. Let us get all the money off of it. That's stupid.

GROSS: Let me ask you. You're a father now. Well, you're a father for at least a second time anyways.

ICE-T: Yeah.

GROSS: Yeah. So how does being a father affect you as a performer and a writer? Any impact on that?

ICE-T: Not really, 'cause my daughter - she's been around, and so she knows all about the nasty lyrics. She loves them. She's the coolest kid at the school. You know, her little girlfriends going, your daddy be writing them nasty records...

GROSS: (Laughter).

ICE-T: ...You know? You know, she's cool with it. She grew up around a house full of cursing and stuff. She don't curse in front of me - just the way I grew up. My father cursed. I just didn't curse in front of him, you know? But, you know, he cursed me out every day. But I never curse around him, you know? And then my little boy - I mean, she's a little revolutionary. She's intelligent. People always say, well, Ice-T, you guys are very aggressive and revolutionary. I'm like, yeah, but just wait on my kids and wait on their kids, you know? So I'm priming them up for the battle and hopefully - you know, his name is Ice. His name is Ice. So he's just coming up - chip off the old block, I guess. I don't know. You know, he's going to be able to sit around the house and listen to me run this rhetoric off for 18 years. So who knows what he'll be? Hopefully he'll be a lawyer - criminal lawyer to keep me out of jail or something.

GROSS: (Laughter) I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.

ICE-T: Thank you.

GROSS: My interview with Ice-T was recorded in 1994. Coming up, we'll hear my 1999 interview with rapper, singer and actor Queen Latifah. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NEW JACK HUSTLER (NINO'S THEME)")

ICE-T: (Rapping) Here I come, so you better break north. As I stride, my gold chains glide back and forth. I care nothing about you, and that's evident. All I love's my dope and dead presidents. Sound crazy? Well, it isn't. The ends justifies the means. That's the system. I learned that in school. Then I dropped out, hit the streets, checked a grip, and now I got clout. I had nothing, and I wanted it. You had everything, and you flaunted it. Turned the needy into the greedy. With cocaine, my success came speedy. There'll be another one after me, a hustler.

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's continue our hip-hop history series with my 1999 interview with Queen Latifah. Her first album, "All Hail The Queen," was released in 1989 and established her image as an Afrocentric, independent female artist, a stark contrast to the misogyny of some of her fellow rappers. Her third album, 1993's "Black Reign," became the first album by a solo female rapper to go gold. In 1998, she was the first rapper to perform at the Super Bowl halftime show. This year, she became only the second hip-hop artist to be named a Kennedy Center honoree.

Like our first guest Ice-T, Queen Latifah is famous for both her music and acting. In the '90s, she starred in the sitcom "Living Single." She was nominated for an Oscar for her performance in the film musical adaptation of the Broadway musical "Chicago." And she currently stars in the CBS crime drama "The Equalizer" as a former CIA agent who now works independently on the side of justice for those in need. When I spoke to Queen Latifah in 1999, we started with her Grammy Award-winning song, "U.N.I.T.Y." In the song, she uses the B-word to talk about what she doesn't like about that word.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "U.N.I.T.Y.")

QUEEN LATIFAH: (Rapping) U.N.I.T.Y. That's a unity. U.N.I.T.Y. You got to let him know you ain't a b**** or a ho. Instinct leads me to another flow. Every time I hear a brother call a girl a b**** or a ho, trying to make a sister feel low. You know all of that gots to go. Now, everybody knows there's exceptions to this rule. Now, don't be getting mad. When we playing, it's cool. But don't you be calling me out my name. I bring wrath to those who disrespect me like a dame. That's why I'm talking. One day I was walking down the block. I had my cutoff shorts on - right? - 'cause it was crazy hot. I walked past these dudes. When they passed me, one of them felt my booty. He was nasty.

GROSS: In this rap, you talk about what you don't like about b**** and ho kind of language. Elaborate on that for me.

QUEEN LATIFAH: (Laughter) You know, at the time, there were so many records coming out with, you know, rappers calling women, you know, b**** this, ho that. And I just thought it was, like, getting out of control. It was becoming a bit too much. And I'm not saying that I don't, you know, use expletives when I'm hanging out with my friends, you know? And, you know, I mean, we may say some of those things, but we say it in joking. But when it's meant to be really derogatory or to disrespect people constantly, you know, it just got to be too much. And so I felt like saying something about it, you know?

GROSS: Did you feel that that language represented larger attitudes toward women in the music world or the rap world or among your friends?

QUEEN LATIFAH: Well, definitely. Some people use that word to apply to all women, you know? And it seems like the word - I mean, I felt like, you know, it's time somebody said something about it because it was just - it's still out of control. It's still out of control, you know? But I think that that helped bring awareness to it. And the record wasn't so much about the word b****. The record was about - the first verse is about that, you know, the respect - respecting a woman. The second verse is about abuse, a woman being beaten by her man and finding the strength to leave. And the third verse was about young girls, like, who wanted to be tough, wanted to be gangster B's, you know what I mean? I mean, the record was really about a lot of different things, and the point of the record was unity. Let's bring it all together. Let's put all this stupid stuff to the side and let's be together, man. Let's stop pushing each other away from each other, and let's be down with each other.

GROSS: As a woman who was a rapper, were you expected to go along with that? Were people surprised when you took issue with it in your rap?

QUEEN LATIFAH: No, I think people respected me for it, you know? They may have been surprised, but I think they respected me for it.

GROSS: Now, Queen Latifah, you may have the only rap record - at least the only one I know of - that has the line, I'm staying celibate, in it. And this is about somebody whose body wants to have sex but their mind is saying no.

QUEEN LATIFAH: Yeah.

GROSS: Why don't I play some of this? This is called "No/Yes."

QUEEN LATIFAH: OK.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NO/YES")

QUEEN LATIFAH: (Rapping) Oh, Flavor Unit. Fine-tune it. Talking about sex in the '90s. Yeah, My mind keep telling me, should I do it or don't do it? My body keep telling me, should I do it or don't do it? My mind keep telling me, should I do it or don't do it? My body keep telling me, should I do it or don't do it? Should I do it? Should I do it?

(Rapping) Don't want to get too complex, but does the stress come with the sex? I know you want to see me undressed. You're fiending to taste my sweetness. And since I'm your sex interest, it's about time for me to confess. I want to smoke you like Buddha - bless. But my mind like a bulletproof vest. It's a no/yes.

(Rapping) My body's ready. My mind's blocked. It's going to take a lot to reach my hot spot. I kid you not. I want to set it and let you - so come and get it. And when we through, you'll need a paramedic. No, never mind. My thoughts dip. You might trip or flip. And so instead, I'm staying celibate. My body's ready. My mind's bugging. So I'm struggling. Do I need your love or your loving? I just don't know.

(Rapping) Should I do it or don't do it? My body keep telling me, should I do it or don't do it? My mind keep telling me, should I do it or don't do it?

GROSS: Queen Latifah, tell me a little bit about the writing of this record.

QUEEN LATIFAH: This record was fun because this record was also taken from another real-life experience where I was in Miami with someone that I went to high school with who wound up doing security. He's a cop now, so he wound up doing security for me. And he was always handsome in high school. And we would, you know, flirting with each other and, you know, talking and - you know, he's sitting in my room, and I'm, like, sitting on my bed. And I'm looking at him debating, like, yo, should I do it or don't do it? Do it or don't do it, you know? So that's kind of where the line in the song comes from during the chorus. But this is the debate that I think every person goes through when they - physically, they would love to do it. But then mentally, you know, their mind begins to analyze the whole situation and it's like, oh, no, I don't know about that. Let me think about that. You know, you should be able to - they should both be in sync. If they're not in sync, then something's not right probably. So...

GROSS: When you first started going to clubs to hear music, you say that the one that you used to go to a lot was called Latin Quarters in Manhattan, and you were living in Newark. So you'd go across the river, go to this club in Manhattan. And you said you'd take back to New Jersey with you some of the styles and the new lingo that you were picking up from the rap club in Manhattan. What were the things you took back with you?

QUEEN LATIFAH: The dances. That was - like, one of the most popular dances to ever come out in rap history was this dance called the wop. And it started there. It started in that club. It started in New York City and was mastered there. And there was so many moves to it, and I was good at it. So I would go there, and I would practice. I would go and watch and try and pick it up, and then I would go home and practice in the mirror until I nailed it, you know? And then I would show my friends, you know, my boys from across the street and my homegirls. You know, I would show all of them, and most of them couldn't do it. This one kid named Rich (ph), he got it. He was young. He was, like, you know, 13 at the time - you know, 12 or 13. And he got it real good.

But I would take the dances back - also, the clothes, the clothing style. I mean, it was all about a name brand back then. You know, I had a S.W.A.T. sweatsuit with some Guess socks with some Spot-Bilt sneakers or K-Swiss sneakers with a Benetton backpack and a Benetton hat, you know? So it was like it had to - it was about style. It was about, you know, flashing those name brands, you know? Even Coca-Cola was popular. Coca-Cola had T-shirts, you know, and sweatshirts that were, like, the bomb to wear back then.

GROSS: Now, the first name that you rapped under was Princess of the Posse. How did you decide on that name for yourself?

QUEEN LATIFAH: No, Latifah was my name. The Princess of the Posse was just my little title, you know, because I was, like, the only girl in our crew. And Ramsey was kind of like - Ramsey and DJ Mark The 45 King were, like, the heads of the crew, you know, so to speak. They were, like, the heads of the crew, but I was - I mean, I didn't go with either one of them, so I couldn't be, like, their girlfriends or anything like that. So I just took the little - I was like the little sister. So I took the princess title.

GROSS: So what was it like being the only female in your posse?

QUEEN LATIFAH: I wasn't the only female, but I was the only female - it felt good. I was - you know, I was cool with it, you know? And then all my friends - I introduced, like, a lot of my friends to the guys in my crew, and some of them hooked up with the guys in my crew. So it was, like - it was cool. We had a big old family. We had a female DJ, this girl named Ginger G (ph). She used to DJ. So she was the female DJ. I was the female rapper. And, you know, we had a couple of other people, you know, down with us, but that was it. And it was actually a good experience for me 'cause I got to be around guys and see how they think and what they do. And they could be natural around me. They didn't really hide anything, you know, in front of me because it wasn't like I was their girlfriend, you know? So they didn't have to front and, you know, be phony or whatever. I learned a lot. And then I had - you know, I had them right there to help me practice. We all practiced around each other. We were writing, and we would bounce the rhymes off of each other to see what the other person thought and get constructive criticism. It was almost like a school for rap. It was real good.

GROSS: We're listening to my 1999 interview with Queen Latifah. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF QUEEN LATIFAH SONG, "FLY GIRL")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1999 interview with rapper and actor Queen Latifah.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: How did you decide what you wanted your image to be?

QUEEN LATIFAH: I kind of just wanted it to not be like anybody else that was already out. So, you know, when the record company gave me some money to go shopping to take - you know, to get clothes and stuff for my promo pictures, you know, I didn't have a stylist, so they basically just gave me money to go shopping. So I went and bought, you know, a couple of outfits, you know, some stretch pants and a nice shirt or whatever, you know, but then I was walking down the street downtown in Newark called Halsey Street, and I passed this African store. And I had already decided my name was Queen Latifah by this point. And then I was looking at some of the clothing, and I liked the way that the pants were made. It was like a drawstring thing. It was beautiful embroidery. I saw this fabric, and I asked the lady could she make me a suit, basically, you know, a shirt and some pants and a hat to match, like a crown? And she said she could do it, and she hooked it up for me, and it came out real cool.

So I took my first promo pictures in it, and I was barefoot in these pictures, squatting with this African suit on. And it was like, whoa, who is this? You know, my look was just automatically different from right - from then on. Plus, I was more open minded. I didn't have to just wear, you know, sweat suit and a gold chain and - you know what I mean? Everybody was already wearing that. I didn't want to be like everybody else. I wanted to be an individual. So considering the fact that at that time, there was a lot of pressure on South Africa to free Nelson Mandela and for companies to divest, I was really conscious at that time of what was going on in the Black community and in the world - African - as an African American. So that just fell right in line with it.

GROSS: It's good you had your clothes made, too, because you write in your book that you hated the full-sized women shops. You didn't like the clothes in there.

QUEEN LATIFAH: Well, yeah. Most of the time, it's just some big, you know - I mean, things have gotten a lot nicer since, you know, then. I was - you know, that was, like, 10, 12 years ago or whatever. But yeah, things have gotten - they've come a long way. You know, I still think that the bigger ladies need some really fly clothes to wear because most women - I mean, most women that I know aren't just small women, you know? They need to be - have really nice things made for them so they can look just as beautiful as, you know, these little size 6s. It's all good. Share the love.

GROSS: You know, you use your size on stage as power, too.

QUEEN LATIFAH: Yeah. Why not? I am statuesque. My stature goes right along with my personality.

GROSS: Tell me about your name, Queen Latifah - not just Latifah, but Queen Latifah.

QUEEN LATIFAH: Well, initially, the queen was put on because I didn't want to be MC Latifah. Just back - goes back to not wanting to be like everyone else. You know, MC Latifah didn't sound right to me. It just sounded - and everybody was MC something back in the day, so I just didn't want to be MC Latifah. I was like, man, that sounds corny. And I could have just left it at - my first single just says Latifah, so I could have just been Latifah. But I felt like I needed a little pre-name, a little, you know, something to go before that. And so I was, like, writing down all of these possible - this list of possible things and bouncing them off of my friend Ramsey (ph), and I was like, what about Queen? What about Queen Latifah? He was like, yeah, that sounds good. That sounds good. My mother laughed at me, but, you know, I thought it sounded good.

GROSS: That's her job.

QUEEN LATIFAH: Oh, yeah, 'cause, you know, your 17-year-old daughter calls herself Queen Latifah, you're going to likely crack up a little bit.

GROSS: How old were you when you started calling yourself Latifah?

QUEEN LATIFAH: I was 8.

GROSS: That's really young to decide you want to change your name. What made you want to do that at such a young age?

QUEEN LATIFAH: I didn't want to change my name. It was kind of a nickname, you know? Everybody did it. I was a follower. Don't you know? No, where I'm from in Newark, it's like a lot of people pick up Muslim names. They don't pick, you know, like, peewee necessarily and Jojo and Junie and Junior and you know what I mean? Like, I guess - I don't know, maybe there was, like, a big surge of Islam in Newark, in the city of Newark, basically, and that, which is, like, the Mecca of the area of Jersey where I'm from. So I think that, like, after the riots in '67, probably, when, you know, they had those - they had some riots in Newark in '67, and then they built all of this public housing they had to, like, you know, give to the, you know, Black people in Newark.

I think Islam may have been, like, bigger. It had gotten bigger, so we kind of inherited all of these names 'cause a lot of people that, you know, lived around me, older people, had Muslim names. I don't even know if they were all Muslims, but they had Muslim names. I wasn't even Muslim. You know, I was a Christian. I wasn't nothing yet 'cause I really didn't choose till I was about 11. But I just liked the name. It meant delicate and sensitive and kind, and that was me on the inside. Even though I was bigger than most of the girls my age, I was really a sweetie pie on the inside. And so that was really reflective of me. And my brother and I and my cousins all picked our names, so it just kind of worked like that.

GROSS: When you started rapping, gangster rap was very popular. Did you relate to the stories of gangs and guns?

QUEEN LATIFAH: Well, we had gangs and guns, but not to the extent that they did here in California. You know, it wasn't quite the same. And we had, like, gangs, but, see, gangs played out in Jersey, in New York. They were no longer - it was no longer cool to be in a gang. So if it wasn't cool, then you didn't want to do it, so - but I could relate to it, but I had no idea. And everybody wanted to down gangster rap when it came out. Like, people who - you know, so-called gangster rap or whatever, they wanted to down it and say it was so negative and violent and misogynistic and this and that, you know, but what it was was real. What it did was inform the rest of the country of what was going on out here. And that was, to me, very interesting because I had no idea what Crips and Bloods were. I had no idea that, you know, there was this subculture going on in California that we really didn't know about. So, I mean, to me, the guys kind of informed you about it. The rappers, they let you know what was going on.

GROSS: We're listening to my 1999 interview with rapper and actor Queen Latifah. We'll hear more of the interview after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF QUEEN LATIFAH SONG, "LADIES FIRST")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview from 1999 with rapper and actor Queen Latifah.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: You have been doing, you know, a lot of acting. You had - you were the star of the TV series "Living Single." You've been in several movies, including "Juice" and "Get It Off" - is that what it's called?

QUEEN LATIFAH: "Set It Off."

GROSS: "Set It Off" - yeah. I saw it, and I couldn't think of the title.

QUEEN LATIFAH: Get It Off" - what you thinking about over there?

(LAUGHTER)

QUEEN LATIFAH: "Set It Off."

GROSS: "Set It Off" and, oh, "Living Out Loud." When you got into acting, did you - had you planned to get into acting?

QUEEN LATIFAH: Well, it was something that I always wanted to do.

GROSS: Since you were a kid?

QUEEN LATIFAH: Yeah. I mean, I acted in school plays and stuff. I never had any, like, really formal training, as in classes or anything like that, but I felt like I had a talent, you know, and I felt like I would - it would be something good for me to do. And I wanted to do it because I never I never looked at myself like I'm the best rapper ever on the planet. And unless I could say that, then I would never be comfortable just being a rapper. I needed to have - like, I needed to diversify and have things to fall back on. So acting was definitely a passion that I wanted to pursue.

GROSS: Your first movie was "Juice," right?

QUEEN LATIFAH: My first movie was - was it "Juice" or "Jungle Fever"?

GROSS: Oh, "Jungle Fever." OK, that was, like, a small role, very small role, right?

QUEEN LATIFAH: Yeah, one day.

GROSS: OK. And then in "Juice," you had a larger role as a DJ, so it was kind of pretty close to who you are.

QUEEN LATIFAH: Right.

GROSS: You didn't have to, like, reinvent yourself completely...

QUEEN LATIFAH: No, exactly.

GROSS: ...For that. Was that a good way to get started, you know, in a role that was pretty close to home?

QUEEN LATIFAH: Well, you know what? It was, I guess, in a way, but then it wasn't. You know, it was kind of like I got sick of playing what people thought Queen Latifah was in their scripts. Like, people would look at my image or who they thought I was, and they'd write me in there, basically. But it wasn't me, you know? It wasn't me. I was much more well-rounded than the linear characters that they kind of had me playing. And they were just, like, this remanufactured version of Queen Latifah. I was happy for the opportunity to be in a movie and kind of learn, so it was kind of - it was good learning some of those things without having to stretch too far from who I really am. But that's not something that can sustain you, and that's not something that can establish you as an actor. So I was dying for the role that was not me, that was not anything remotely like me so that I could really show my skills, my talent, use it (ph).

GROSS: What's the closest you've come to the - to a role that's not remotely like you?

QUEEN LATIFAH: "Set It Off" - Cleo.

GROSS: And describe your character.

QUEEN LATIFAH: Cleo in "Set It Off." She was basically orphaned at a young age. She had no one left, really, but her friends. Her friends were the most important thing, you know, in her life to her. She would die for them. She was very strong but real tender on the inside. She was a lesbian and in a monogamous relationship with someone, although she did like to flirt. And that was basically - she just really cared. You know, she kind of cursed a lot. She liked to drink, and, you know, she liked to smoke her cigarettes. She was a little bit wild, but she was a very caring person. She really was really down for her friends, and that was, like, the bottom line, so...

GROSS: Did you see a lot of homophobia surface after your performance?

QUEEN LATIFAH: No. You know, I didn't. People had love for that character. And that was what I really wanted to do. I wanted to make them really love her. You know, that character was so great, and the script was so great for her because she got to really go all-out for her friends. You had to love her. If you didn't care about her, then you were just - you needed to really examine your own emotions and your own feelings because anybody who basically would say - look, you guys go run - and take the heat, and knew she was going to take the heat, and knew she was probably going to die and knew she was going to meet her end, you know, but sacrificed herself so that her friends could try and - you know, could be free like that - that's a true, true trooper. That's a true friend. And so I figured that there's - you know, if you don't have love for this girl by the time this movie is over, you're just twisted.

GROSS: (Laughter).

QUEEN LATIFAH: So, I mean, basically, the - there's a scene in there where I kiss this girl, and I have yet to watch this scene because I can't watch it, you know, myself. I can't - I don't think I could just watch myself be intimate, period. It wasn't the fact that she was a girl, but it was the fact that just, I'm kissing somebody on - I can't watch me do that, I don't think. But it was kind of funny because I went and saw the movie, like, eight times, you know, when it came out. And I would see it in regular theaters - like, creep in and just sit in the back of the theater and watch the movie with a regular audience to see how they reacted. And every time that kissing scene came, people was like, ugh...

GROSS: (Laughter).

QUEEN LATIFAH: ...Ew, ooh. You know, people - I mean, you could hear this big roar in the theater. But by the time that the end of the movie came, they were, like, cheering for the girls, like, cheering for us to, like, get away to win, you know? So they couldn't remember, you know? It wasn't like their mind stayed focused on that one thing - you know? - which was good for me.

GROSS: In one of your records, you say, Latifah's on vacation; I'm just plain old Dana today. Do you often feel that way?

QUEEN LATIFAH: Yeah. I do have to put Latifah on. Because you know what? Latifah is me, but then she became bigger than me, you know, because Queen Latifah is known in all these places. And, you know, everybody knows her face and what she does. And, you know, everybody doesn't know what Dana really - you know, who Dana really is. So I have to give the, you know, professional stuff a break and just be me sometimes, you know? And that's when I just jump in my car, and drive, and go visit my people and all that kind of stuff, you know? That was what that was about. You could - yeah, I'm Queen Latifah, whatever, but today, I'm just Dana. You know, just - let's just be Dana today.

GROSS: I want to thank you so much for talking with us.

QUEEN LATIFAH: Thank you. I had a great time.

GROSS: My interview with Queen Latifah was recorded in 1999. She now stars in the CBS crime series "The Equalizer." Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our hip-hop history week continues with interviews from two different groups known for their clever lyrics and inventive use of samples - De La Soul and the Beastie Boys. I hope you can join us. And if you'd like a peek behind the scenes at FRESH AIR, subscribe to our newsletter. This week, we're compiling a playlist of music by all the artists we're featuring during this week of shows celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. To get the playlist, subscribe to the newsletter, whyy.org/freshair. That's whyy.org/freshair.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LADIES FIRST")

QUEEN LATIFAH: (Singing) Ooh, ladies first, ladies first. Ooh, ladies first, ladies first. Ooh, ladies first, ladies first. Ooh, ladies first, ladies first.

GROSS: Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.